Traveller-digest        Friday, May 9 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1300



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Geonee Post: The Llyrnians
Re: Meson Guns - The last post?
Re: Ship economics -- fuel consumption
Re: TAS Question
Re: QSDS and SSDS (was Re: Meson Guns - The last post?)
Computer Empathy for T4
Anyone going to BayCon?
Re: 1g Gravity
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1298
TL _17_ robot world
Re: Ship economics
Re: Some Questions
RE: 1g Gravity
Re: TAS Question
Re: Ship economics -- fuel consumption
Re: Who We Are

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 15:44:48 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Geonee Post: The Llyrnians

        This is part of my slowly progressing (have I said this before?)
Geonee Sourcebook. I've been silent for a while, but, at last...
        This is the First Draft (comments very welcome) of a short summary
on the Llyrnians, a minor alien race two parsecs away from the boundaries of
the Second Geonee Confederation.
        After reading this, maybe you will understand all those nasty rumors
about imperial ships being boarded by bizarre demons who can see in the dark
and  beat the Imperial Marines, and follow the orders of dwarf-like
humans... ;-)

================================================================================
The Llyrnians

Homeworld (Milieu Zero) in Shokee subsector / Massilia:

Llyrn		0931	D333AAA-A		Na Po Hi	933	F8 VI

	Llyrn is a cold world, a satellite of a gas giant orbiting a small star.
It's upper crust is full of huge natural caves. Life appeared on these caves
around geothermal energy sources, and most of the native life forms are
subterranean, cave-bound or tunnel-dwellers.

Physiology

	The Llyrnians are based on a trilateral symmetry, with three "legs" on the
bottom part of a cylindrical "body" from which three "arms" spread. On the
upper part of the body, a "head" holds most of the sensorial organs,
basically three "ears", a visual band which circles the whole head, and
three breathing orifices which function as smelling "noses" and are able to
produce noises for communication. Three "mouths" open under the arms for
feeding purposes.
	Three vibrating membranes on the upper part of the body give them a "sonar"
capability.
	The Llyrnians are basically tunnel-dwellers (they dwell the tunnels
"upwards" using all three arms) whose main senses are hearing (which
includes sonar) and smelling. Their vision centers on the infrared part of
the spectrum.

	The Llyrnians biology is based on a triploid genetic system. They have
three sexes, usually referred to as "Warrior", "Dweller", and "Feeder".
Feeders give birth to one or two newborns (almost always of the same sex)
after a gestation period of 112 standard days.
	Genders are specialized. Warriors defend the community, Dwellers build the
tunnels and Feeders take care of the children.

	The average weight of a Llyrnian is 60 kilograms for Warriors and Dwellers
and 80 for Feeders. The average height is 1.5 meters for the three sexes.
        The UPP for Llyrnians is different for the three sexes.
Dwellers: Str = 2D-2, Dex = 2D+1, End = 2D, Int = 2D, Edu = 2D, Soc= 4+1D
Warriors: Str= 2D, Dex = 2D+1, End = 2D, Int = 2D-1, Edu = 2D-2, Soc= 2+1D
Feeders: Str= 2D-2, Dex = 2D-2, End= 6+1D, Int = 2D-2, Edu = 2D-2, Soc= 1D

Society and Culture

	The Llyrnian society is built upon the community, a group ranging between a
few hundreds and ten thousand individuals of the three sexes. The community
leader, always a dweller, has almost absolute powers. The members of the
community instinctively accept its authority.
	The measure of the power of a community is the extent of the tunnels and
caves it controls. So, dwellers are constantly planning new tunnels while
taking care of the stability of already settled ones, while warriors
perpetually try to capture those belonging to rival communities, while
defending the own settlements.
	The "tunnel fights" are ruthless battles fought in narrow, dark tunnels.
The Warriors rely heavily on their infrared vision and their sonar sense
during the fights.
	The planet has been ruled as a whole by a central authority as long as
historical records exist. This central government takes the form of a
Charismatic Dictatorship in the person of the Supreme Dweller, which is
designated by the previous one among the leaders of the most influential
communities. Succession takes place when the Supreme Dweller reaches an
advanced age.
	The Supreme Dweller does not usually interfere with the fights between the
communities, as long as they do not evolve into large-scale wars through
alliances and coalitions of communities.

History

	The Llyrnians were first contacted in year -9,070 by the neighboring Geonee
(a minor human race). Llyrn was then at TL 3, but the population had already
exceeded the one thousand figure.
	The Geonee contacted Llyrn sporadically and helped the Llyrnians to upgrade
their technology, introducing heavy machinery which allowed the dwellers to
build larger and deeper tunnels. Over the following centuries, the Dwellers
acquired more and more technical knowledge, and a demographic explosion
occurred.
	In -4,900, the Geonee were defeated by the Vilani and incorporated into the
Ziru Sirka. The Llyrnians, then at TL 7 in environment control and heavy
machinery, experienced a technological regression. Although they were
formally also incorporated into the Ziru Sirka, the few Vilani who ever
ventured into the tunnels never came back, and Llyrn was, for all practical
purposes, interdicted. Geonee historians speculate with the possibility that
some Geonee refugees spent their lives in Llyrn as technical advisors.
	In -2,235, the Nth war between the Solomani and the Vilani made the Geonee
revolt against the Vilani. During the war, thousands of Llyrnians were used
by the Geonee as starship troopers, thanks to an agreement with the Supreme
Dweller, in exchange for heavy machinery. The effectiveness of the Llyrnians
in boarding operations and infiltration operations was terrible. Low-G
adapted and relying in infrared vision and sonar, the Llyrnian Warriors
easily beat the humans in a fight on the corridors of a boarded starship,
when the light goes off and the artificial gravity fails. The Geonee were
able to capture hundreds of Vilani starships thanks to the Llyrnian troops.
	The Nth war started a tradition of using Llyrnian Warriors as Marines in
Geonee ships.
	In -2,200, the Rule of Man created the Geonee Autonomous Region, which
included the Geonee worlds and Llyrn. Llyrn reached TL 8 and a population of
dozens of thousands of millions.
	In -1,776, the Long Night started. Llyrn fell to TL5 in a few centuries,
but although most tunnels had to be abandoned when the environmental
controls failed, the planet managed to retain a population over ten thousand
of millions.
	In -177, Llyrn was recontacted by the recently founded Second Geonee
Confederation. Geonee technical advisors and heavy machinery were once again
exchanged for Llyrnian Warriors.
	A century later, the Geonee Confederation offered membership to Llyrn, but
the Supreme Dweller declined the offer. Nevertheless, in -81, a full
Confederation Embassy was established at Llyrn, and, in year -73, a detailed
commercial treaty was signed. Llyrn slowly became a Client State of the
Geonee Confederation.
	In Year Zero, Llyrn retains, from the commercial point of view, a heavy
dependence from the Geonee Confederation. At TL 10 and with a population in
excess of ninety thousand of millions, the planet is an excellent market for
machinery and agroproducts. On the other hand, Llyrnian Warriors can be
found not only in the Geonee service, but also working for other planets or
corporations. And not only as starship troopers, but also doing ground work
in Low Gravity worlds. Llyrnian Dwellers also work in several worlds with
underground environments, for example in Dreva, inside the Geonee Confederation.
	The commercial balance of Llyrn is only equilibrated thanks to the
long-term contracts of Warriors and Dwellers out of Llyrn, all of which have
to be negotiated through the Supreme Dweller or its representatives.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 08:59:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: XatoKuom@aol.com
Subject: Re: Meson Guns - The last post?

In a message dated 97-05-09 01:13:37 EDT, Merrick wrote:

<<  Try the Role Playing
 Space Combat System available on the net, it is far better. >>

What is the address, if you don't mind my asking?

"If you can't dazzle them with style, riddle them with bullets!"

Scott Quigg(XatoKuom@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 14:55:19 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Ship economics -- fuel consumption

Kenneth Bearden writes:
>Just like I said in the quote you took from my post, I was comparing 
>the cost that a JUMP-2 ship would have if it jumped 2 parsecs vs 
>THE SAME SHIP jumping 1 parsec.  The costs are the same--no matter 
>how far the ship jumps.

Almost the same, but not quite.
 
>Fuel for the jump will be the same--no matter if the ship jumps one 
>parsec or two.

No, the fuel for the jump will be less on the 1-parsec jump. Jump
governors has been part of the Traveller background since _High Guard_
and are so cheap that they have been standard since then (and so cheap
that the cost is ignored). A jump-2 ship jumping 1 parsec would normally
only use fuel enough for a jump-1.

However, the fuel costs are comparatively minor (especially if you use
realistic prices). 


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 07:43:27 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: TAS Question

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> 
> I've been looking for a general rule to place TAS facilities.  I seem
> to recall that I read, somewhere in the past, that TAS facilities are
> only located next to class C or better starports.

TAS facilities are at class A and B starports only. I'd also add
a restriction based on the world population but that's my own
opinion.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 08:47:13 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: QSDS and SSDS (was Re: Meson Guns - The last post?)

Peter Newman noted that fuel requirements changed, but he didn't
include all the reaction mass that TNE ships require.  So the total
fuel loadout is pretty similar when you throw in 50-100 gturns worth
of HEPlaR fuel.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 12:49:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Computer Empathy for T4

Greetings,

As it is another slow day at the office, i went cruising on the old TML 
archives trying to find my old posts.  Called "Commander X's Tales from the 
Rim".  I found the post i did on Hackers (TML95-413) and the thing about 
Computer Empathics made me think.  I had just recently finished reading the 
Corellian Trilogy and was thinking about Anakin Solo's special talent.  I 
liked the idea so much that I decided to make it a special RARE ability in 
T4 Psionics rules, yet I wonder if this is going to be covered in the 
upcomming Psi Institutes, hmmm...one can only guess.  But untill then here 
is what I have come up with for Computer Empathy.

Computer Empathy --  The ability of the psion to sense the electronic 
pathways of a computer or electronic device.  Dificulty is 2.5d under normal 
situations.
Cost is as follows:
0 if machine is touched, 1Psi/Meter otherwise.
+1 Psi/Computer complexity rating
+1 for each additional computer to be accessed, for example if the info 
being searched for is on another computer in a LAN, +1.  If you need to 
access the local net +3.  If you need to cruise the internet +5.  Think of 
it as how many routers you need to jump by to reach your destination.

Success at the basic(2.5d) level allows the psion to passively scan all data 
within the computer or device.  This will alow the psion to know not only 
data in a machine, but if there are any broken lines in a computer system or 
device, the proper button sequence or radio frequency for activation of an 
item.  Very useful for repairing electronics or intrusion.

"It's all melty inside!" -- Anakin Solo, Ambush at Corellia.

What this will not do is allow manipulation of data, you still need a 
computer for that.  Nor will it alow decryption of data, the psion will see 
the data as a hacker would on a screen, bunch of indeciperable garbage.

Comments? Mind you, as always I'm wearing my flame retardant Commanders 
Uniform! :)

Commander X

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 08:56:32 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Anyone going to BayCon?

In the spirit of the Toronto TML thing, I wonder if any of the Bay area
TMLers is going to be at BayCon this year?

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  Q. What do you get when you cross a Unitarian  |
|     with a Jehovah's Witness?                   |
|  A. Someone who knocks on your door for no      |
|     reason at all.                              |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 08:39:12 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: 1g Gravity

At 06:01 PM 5/9/97 +1000, you wrote:
>
>Im curious - how do traveller ships handle gravity, or are they all zero G
>environments?  Digging way back into my memory, and making a quick
>calculation, but if a ship travelled at 1G constantly, wouldnt there be a
>normal Earth Gravity on the vessel?

Traveller has always assumed that one of the major technological
breakthroughs will be artificial gravity.

A starship has two forms of internal AG; the floor plates that provide a
comfortable living enviroment, and inertial compensators that counteract
the effects of high-g acceleration and manuevering.

If you accelerated a ship at a constant 1-g, you would have the sensation
of normal gravity along the axis of thrust.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  Q. What do you get when you cross a Unitarian  |
|     with a Jehovah's Witness?                   |
|  A. Someone who knocks on your door for no      |
|     reason at all.                              |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 11:54:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1298

> 	While I fully agree with your call for better internal 
> consistency from IG, I think you've misplaced your ire as to what is 
> "f*cking up" Traveller.

Yes. I think I let my meson gun off half-cocked, so to speak.

> A Brief History:
> Around this time last year, Don Perrin introduced himself to the list and 
> asked if anyone could provide him with some CT computer tables he was 
> missing so that he could include them in T4.  A number of people were 
> very vocally opposed to going back to this system and advocated instead a 
> simplified system fully compatible with FF&S.  Perrin gave people on the 
> list a week to come up with something. 

Rushing T4 to make it to GenCon is going to haunt us forever. 

> Astonishingly, the Beta-list, lead by Dave Golden and Derek Wildstar, 
> came up with the now familiar QSDS and SSDS in just a little over a 
> week.  Following Perrins instructions, they were completely compatible 
> with FF&S, execept for the changes introduced by the T4 background.  Both 
> these systems as published are short on explanatory and descriptive text 
> because IG was supposed to fill that in.

Yes, as far as construction systems go, QSDS and SSDS are really
well done and certainly make FF&S a lot more palatable. 

> The Techy Stuff
> The Ship Design and Space Combat systems are both representations of 
> physical reality in the Trav universe and therefore are intimately 
> connected.  Unfortunately, Don Perrin created a Space Combat system that 
> used a representation of the Trav universe which was not consistent with 
> that used by the Ship Design system.

Yes!

I suppose I was griping a bit too much about the construction system
which really isn't what's broken - it's the combat system that's broken.
It would be nice if there was some easy patch that would allow everything
to make sense, but it doesn't look like there is.

> Fire, Fusion, & Steel, and its two simplifications QSDS and SSDS, are 
> both internally consistent and consistent with past Trav canon. You can 
> check this by looking at SSDS, which uses raw FF&S numbers.
> 
> An example: 
> In SSDS a basic TL-12 laser turret and a 5000Mj Meson Gun
> 	95 Mj Laser	5:  28	10:24
> 	5000Mj MG	5: 177	10:88
> The MG is clearly superior, right?

If you built a 5000Mj laser, it would probably be better still,
but the TL*50 rule deals with that problem (though a 600Mj TL12
laser would still be pretty deadly).

> The problem comes when lasers are combined into batteries.  What happens 
> in the world of FF&S is that batteries all fire on the same target and 
> roll to hit only once, but that each laser does damage separately.  In 
> T4, the lasers magically combine into one big laser and do damage 
> together.  
> 
> This will always do more damage than one big weapon because of the way 
> damage and input energy are related.  Damage goes as the square root of 
> input energy.  So putting 5000Mj into a single MG gets you 177 damage, 
> while putting 5000Mj into 50 lasers gets you a total of 1200 damage.
> 
> In FF&S, that 1200 points of damage is divided into 50 little pin-pricks 
> that cannot even penetrate the armor on a military ship, but in the T4 
> translation, all that damage gets lumped together into one giant 
> wave-motion gun.

Ah-ha! I've never even seen TNE ship combat rules, so I did not
know this was the case. It certainly makes a lot more sense. No 
doubt it got thrown out for being to awkward or some other half-though-out
reason.

> Finally, everyone please remember that QSDS and SSDS are supposed to only 
> be for ships up to 5000 tons, or Adventurer Class Ships as the original 
> T4 ad copy described it.  They do not have the weaponry to build real 
> battleships and linear extraplotations from them as to what battleships 
> look like will be flawed.

I still think that meson _screens_ are a bit out of whack: at TL 12,
you can still get a screen with a USP of 12, which seems pretty high.
Of course, since the combat system is broken, we have no idea how
to interpret that figure or what it means. :(

The current low ceiling on the kind of ships you can build
is a sticking point for sure. it's hard to build a realistic
military ship at those sizes, at least in terms of what a 
"realistic military ship" was in CT & MT.

> Heres a comparison between that same laser and a _real_ Meson Gun:
> 	95Mj laser	5:  28	10: 24
> 	100,000Mj MG	5:1581	10:845
> This Meson Gun is designed for a relatively small ship, a 20,000 ton 
> cruiser.  But as you can see, it is vastly superior to any laser.

At very short range, that a USP of 14, at short, a USP of 11.
Not bad. Of course, in T4, a battery of a mere 56 of those laser
turrets would do equal damage (ugh).

> *Lasers top out at the levels described in SSDS&QSDS but Meson Guns 
> *just keep getting bigger and badder.  Have faith.  I am hoping that the 
> *upcoming supplements devoted to spacecraft will answer all these 
> *questions in more detail.

Thanks for clearing all of this up for me. My complaining about the
T4 space combat being broken is really old news to a lot of people I
suppose, but this is really the first time I've sat down and had
a good, hard look at it.

Anyways, this still doesn't really resolve my initial problem,
which was how to figure out what's an acceptable set of
armaments for a merchant ship to be able to "reasonably defend" itself.
THUDDD judges are just going to have to go on their gut feeling
as to what's an acceptable number of lasers, sandcasters, dampers
and (ugh) meson screens.

And my apologies to any TNE fans for griping. The things broken in
T4 aren't broken because they inherited them from TNE.

Going to a low simmer,
Ethan
- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 09:11:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: TL _17_ robot world

>>  The name of the planet is S-something - again, I hate not having
my

>>reference material!  Perhaps someone could dig out the name and the  


>place

>>where the info first appeared (an issue of Challenge, perhaps?)

>

>Sabmiqays (but the spelling's probably off). Described in an early   

>edition of Challenge - something like issue 32 or 33 if I remember   

>rightly.

>

>Kind Regards

>

>David Elrick

>

>david.elrick@ps.co.uk


Actually Sabmiqys is a tech level 17 world. The robots are all
anthropomorphic artificially intelligent robots. They only have TL-8
space flight, so they're not currently a threat to neighboring worlds.


The world is interdicted for obvious reasons. It's located in Antares
sector. Here are it's Rebellion-era stats:


<fontfamily><param>Times</param><bigger>Sabmiqys      2117  X160056-H  
 Ni              R  504 Im G3 V</bigger></fontfamily>


Best,


Chris Griffen


===================================================

Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.


http://www.cris.com/~Cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml




- --------------------------------------------------------------

Christopher Griffen                      Phone: (408) 527-7189

Cisco Systems, Inc.                      Fax:   (408) 527-0452

NMBU Technical Publications              cgriffen@cisco.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 09:40:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Douglas <douglas@*teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Ship economics

On Fri, 9 May 1997, Rupert Boleyn wrote:

[snip]

> 
> Some quick calculations:
> Preserved food costs Cr20 per man-day (from CT, I couldn't find food prices
> in MT or TNE, and I don't have T4).
> The refill for a TL12 Vacc suit air tank costs Cr10 and lasts 24hrs with
> recycling.
> 
> This gives a cost of Cr30 per man-day of life support, and Cr900 per 30 day
> month. However given that these prices are for small retail lots I can't
> see any reason why starship life support should cost more than about Cr500
> per month. This means that either the port suppliers have a 800% markup, or
> ships use onepass openended lifesupport systems, which seems very unlikely,
> at least for thier O2.
> 
> Does anyone know what the consuimption figures for Skylab or the Soviet
> stations are like? They'd give a rough idea (for TL7, anyway).

I've always assumed that total cost of ownership is included in that
price.  Filters (gas and fluid), consumables (toilet paper, cleaning
supplies, lubricants, etc) for the ship, miscellaneous spare parts (shower
nozzle, toilet seat, computer i/o device, etc), not to mention the
hundreds of parts that are needed on a regular basis for shipboard life.

It's not perfect, but it beats having to design a system, then maintain it
to simulate these costs.

> >JUMP FUEL

[snip]

Yes, there is a great deal of profit to be made, but look at the costs and
the risks.  H2, is very explosive when mixed with O2.  Handling it
requires training and could easily be construed as a high risk occupation
(read that as 'high paying').  

Basically, there will be two types of companies in the business.  One type 
will have purification and tankage facilities and will be able to
provide H2 from stock onhand.  This is the type of facility I see
available at Class A, B, and most C starports.  The other type of company
will likely be little more than a pumping and purification plant,
providing fuel ondemand.  I tend to see this type of setup at D and
possibley E starports, and some of the sleazier C starports.


- --------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
                                              -Merlin

douglas@teleport.com
http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas\

MCSE: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation, 
      Exchange Server, Basic Networking, TCP/IP
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 11:44:14 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Some Questions

 I really liked the 
> plotline of the first two games with #2 being my fave!

I really liked the Traveller computer games as well, but I've got to 
admit, I didn't think #2 was better than #1.

The plot was cool, and the interface was better designed, but I got 
so board going to the same planet all the time.

I mean, each planet looked the same.  Every once in a while, they 
would move a building or something, but that was so damn boring.

What I really liked about game #1 was that, with each new place you 
went, you could discover all sorts of things that you had never seen 
before.  It was like going to a new place.

And, the places looked different.  You had to search around for a 
particular building--they weren't always in the same place all the 
time like in game #2.

Sure, the graphics in game #1 are old--especially by today's 
standards, but I got tons more enjoyment out of that game than I did 
the second one.

The first game felt more like Traveller.  The second one felt like an 
repetitious arcade game.

Kenneth.
> 
> Ad Astra,
> 
> V.A.G.       
> ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
> -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
> --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
> ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
> -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----
> 
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 09:42:48 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: RE: 1g Gravity

>Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 18:01:58 +1000 (EST)
>From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>

>Im curious - how do traveller ships handle gravity, or are they all zero G
>environments?  Digging way back into my memory, and making a quick
>calculation, but if a ship travelled at 1G constantly, wouldnt there be a
>normal Earth Gravity on the vessel?

Before artificial gravity shows up at TL 9 and inertial compensators at TL
10, you have whatever acceleration your engines produce.  Once you get AG
at TL9, you can have a 1G floor field even if the engines are off, but the
gravity can never be less than the drives are currently producing.  Once
you get inertial compensators, then your gravity can be anything up to the
rating of the compensators.  If memory serves, they improve at 1G per TL,
and can compensate 6G at tech 15, 3G at TL 12, and 1G at TL 10.  Note that
they can also compensate for any rotational motion that the computer
running it knows about.  (For example, a laser hit that jerks the ship gets
through, but a sudden turn cannot be detected inside.)

These are memories from SOM, so I may have a few details wrong, but this is
how I have played it for some years.

Note: Sylean ships will often be designed with 5G drives, as the
compensators will eat three of them, and grav tanks let you ignore one
more.  If your players like to suffer, you can put a 6G drive on, which I
did to them recently when they had a high priority mission across the
system.  

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 11:53:43 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: TAS Question

> TAS facilities are at class A and B starports only.

Where did you find this rule?  I've been looking, but I can't seem to 
find it.

 I'd also add
> a restriction based on the world population but that's my own
> opinion.

It's your opinion, but it is also a good thought.  I may do the same.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 11:53:44 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Ship economics -- fuel consumption

> No, the fuel for the jump will be less on the 1-parsec jump. Jump
> governors has been part of the Traveller background since _High Guard_
> and are so cheap that they have been standard since then (and so cheap
> that the cost is ignored). A jump-2 ship jumping 1 parsec would normally
> only use fuel enough for a jump-1.

Now, you are making me want to dig through my old materials and look 
this up.

Wasn't the official rule that the amount of fuel it takes to initiate 
a jump the same--no matter what actual jump a ship was making?

I seem to remember an old Digest article that talked about this.  I 
think the point in the ariticle was that, no matter the actual jump 
attempted, the same procedure of ripping a hole into jumpspace, 
creating a jump field bubble, and closing the hole took the same 
amount of energy.

In the same article (I think), this was the reasoning behind 
microjump taking the same amount of fuel as a regular jump did.

I guess I should go look up this stuff before I get in over my 
head, but I'm pretty sure that fuel consumption is the same (unless 
you are using home grown rules) no matter the distance travelled.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 97 18:07 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Who We Are

In-Reply-To: <v03007800af810988ea2e@[171.68.198.243]>

<< It amazes me how many players of this game are from such technical and
scientific backgrounds.>>

I agree - there are some seriously impressive brains on this list. I hope 
IG realise what a valuable reality-checking resource they have here.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1300
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, May 9 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1301



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Bunks versus Staterooms
Traveller movie
Re: 1g Gravity
Re: WINMAIL.DAT
Re: Toronto TML Thing
Re: TAS Question
Re: THUDDD Comments
Re: Traveller movie
Re: 1g Gravity
Re: Trains Planes and Jump Drive
May THUDD entry
Re: Mass Drivers
Traveller Chat
May THUDD: Starwerx Orbital Foundry, LTD's entry; the Nuphraitelle class
Anyone going to BayCon?
Re: Toronto TML Thing

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 97 18:07 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Bunks versus Staterooms

In-Reply-To: <199704260058.UAA01730@Mithril.MPGN.COM>

<< Is this the sort of life you or I would seek out?  Don't know about you,
but *I* wouldn't..that's one reason I stayed out of the service, too.  <g>
OTHO, could I put up with it for a few weeks passage from Actarus to
Capella Prime?  Yep! Where do I book passage? >>

The TAS office on Arcturus. How you get *there* is the problem...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 10:31:28 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Traveller movie

So my friend says, hey, Glenn, let's go to that movie that you've been wanting to see:  
Traveller.  And I'm like, Traveller movie? cool.  So we go, and it's just these Irish 
guys in contemporary times in the US and I'm wondering if it's like a time travel 
adventure which isn't very Travelleresque, but anyway there's no grav taxicabs or .1c 
asteroids or new scientific discoveries or anything and I keep waiting for Bruce Willis 
to show up but there's only Bill Paxton.  So I think maybe she snookered me on this.  
Have you seen this new Traveller film?

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:55:49 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: 1g Gravity

On Fri, 9 May 1997, Michael Solomani Mifsud wrote:

> 
> Im curious - how do traveller ships handle gravity, or are they all zero G
> environments?  Digging way back into my memory, and making a quick
> calculation, but if a ship travelled at 1G constantly, wouldnt there be a
> normal Earth Gravity on the vessel?

Most traveller ships beyond TL-9 or so have internal artificial gravity,
as well as G-compensation. So the internal gravity of the ship can be
varied. In fact, on many (if not all) ships, this is controllable on a
room-to-room basis. In TNE this was utilized by Virus (and in T4 by
Roderick's gang of hellions !)to play Grav Pong to some unfortunates.
Quickly turn the field on and of, inverting and turning it sideways as you
go. Get down a cooridor where the garvity is changing from 0-2 or 3 G
every second or so, and 'Down' is changing too...NOT in synch. Soon you're
a little broken bag o bones somewhere at the end of a corridor. 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:55:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Douglas <douglas@*teleport.com>
Subject: Re: WINMAIL.DAT

On Thu, 8 May 1997, David J. Golden wrote:

> At 12:57 am 05/08/97 -0700, you wrote:
> >Thanks to everyone who took the time to kindly point out that I have a 
> >mailer problem.  I am attempting to isolate why Outlook is sending mail to 
> >the TML in MIME rather than UUENCODE, which is what I had specified.  If 
> >anyone is currently using Outlook, I'd be interested in hearing from you!
> 
> 	It shouldn't be sending anything in MIME *or* UUENCODE. That ridiculous
> binary appendage that Outlook/Exchange adds to email messages is completely
> useless to 75% or more of the people on the list, and just generally wastes
> space.
> -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
>    goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
>     *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***
> 
>  "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
>   enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
>   a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine
> 

Sorry, I mis-typed.  Part of that comes from the 'fix' that I had thought
was working.

I think I've found a better one, I'm chasing it down today.  With any
luck, not only will I be able to eliminate the winmail.dat from my client,
I will be able to provide the information to fix anyone else who has a
similar problem.

Thanks for your feedback.

- --------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
                                              -Merlin

douglas@teleport.com
http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas\

MCSE: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation, 
      Exchange Server, Basic Networking, TCP/IP
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 14:01:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: Toronto TML Thing

> Well, y'know there's a cool SF convention in Toronto...
> 
>         Ad Astra 17
>         June 13-15, 1997
>         Days Inn, Toronto Airport
> 
> Not the best location for a get-together, true, but it's a great
> convention. I'll be doing a bunch of panels, and even a reading. I don't
> have the contact info handy at the moment. And I can't remember who the GOH
> is this year. Will post more when I have the info.

Hm, the airport is a lousy location for an informal get-together.
I was thinking of more downtown-ish. Anyways, since there's a 
convention in town, maybe that's a good weekend to schedule something,
since more people might be in town, but if they're all at the airport,
maybe it's not. (Decisive, huh?)

The 15th is Father's day, so that might not be such a good day for
everyone. The 14th? Feedback?

Ethan
- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 12:23:22 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: TAS Question

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> 
> > TAS facilities are at class A and B starports only.
> 
> Where did you find this rule?  I've been looking, but I can't seem to
> find it.
> 

I'm at work now (and, therefore, don't have my Traveller stuff
with me) but I think it's in the definitions for starports. It may
also be in the world design rules.

I use MT though, so your mileage may vary.

>  I'd also add
> > a restriction based on the world population but that's my own
> > opinion.
> 
> It's your opinion, but it is also a good thought.  I may do the same.
> 

I just figured that the TAS wouldn't bother putting up facilities
on a class A starport with, say, five people on the world.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 11:25:14 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: THUDDD Comments

On Fri, 9 May 1997, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
> 
> > You know the *only* thing about meson cannon that I like is the deep meson
> > site.  I absolutely detest them as ship weapons..from a game play/design
> > point of view. 
> 
> That's ok. I can think of at least one possible ship carried weapon
> that can't be used by planetary defense.
> 
> Any planet with an ionisphere has a *major* potential difference
> between the surface and the ionisphere. It runs about 1000 volts per
> meter on earth. The ionisphere and the surface thus form the plates of
> a giant spherical capacitor.
> 
> Now, take a big tunable laser. Mount it on a ship. Use it to ionize a
> path from the ionisphere to the ground. You get a "lightning bolt" with
> a power level more suited to an asteroid impact.
> 
> It may be more of a "slow burn". Taking a few hours to drain the
> charge. Either way it'll act like EMP only a *billion* times worse.
> Electronics fry, long conductors melt, etc, etc. And your ship is
> floating "serenely" above the devastation.
 
I think the effectiveness of this would be mitigated by the lack of
current carrying capacity of the ionosphere and the parts of the
atmosphere below that...it IS pretty thin, after
all. That's why the charge builds up. Otherwise any asteroid that made it
through to the lower atmosphere, or hit the ground would cause such a
lightning blast. For that matter, so would the Space Shuttle on re-entry.

You might get a really impressive upper atmosphere lightning display, or a
nifty aurora effect. This could interrupt radio commo pretty well, so it's
useful for jamming, but as a weapon it'd be useless.

NASA played with this last year with a power generating satellite that
exploited this effect. The experiment was a partial success, the cable
snapped 'cause it got fried by the current, IIRC.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 12:21:22 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller movie

Glenn M. Goffin, Esq. wrote:
> 
> So my friend says, hey, Glenn, let's go to that movie that you've been wanting to see:
> Traveller.  And I'm like, Traveller movie? cool.  So we go, and it's just these Irish
> guys in contemporary times in the US and I'm wondering if it's like a time travel
> adventure which isn't very Travelleresque, but anyway there's no grav taxicabs or .1c
> asteroids or new scientific discoveries or anything and I keep waiting for Bruce Willis
> to show up but there's only Bill Paxton.  So I think maybe she snookered me on this.
> Have you seen this new Traveller film?
> 
> --Glenn

You're referring to The Fifth Element, which I saw Wednesday. It's
a good B movie. Lots of grav vehicles, a couple of starships. The 
plot is pretty hokey but if you don't take it too seriously you'll
enjoy it. It's MUCH better than Hudson Hawk.

Some parts, especially the grav vehicle chase, remind me so much
of some of the Traveller campaigns I've run.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 12:30:55 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: 1g Gravity

Scott Ellsworth wrote:
> 
> Before artificial gravity shows up at TL 9 and inertial compensators at TL
> 10, you have whatever acceleration your engines produce.  Once you get AG
> at TL9, you can have a 1G floor field even if the engines are off, but the
> gravity can never be less than the drives are currently producing. 

Unless you put the grav plates in the walls and ceiling too, in which
case you can have zero G when the drives are cranked up full tilt. You
do this by simply turning on the grav plates that project in a 
direction equal to the direction of thrust, in this case the forward
walls.

 Once
> you get inertial compensators, then your gravity can be anything up to the
> rating of the compensators.  If memory serves, they improve at 1G per TL,
> and can compensate 6G at tech 15, 3G at TL 12, and 1G at TL 10.  Note that
> they can also compensate for any rotational motion that the computer
> running it knows about.  (For example, a laser hit that jerks the ship gets
> through, but a sudden turn cannot be detected inside.)
> 

Well, a laser wouldn't jerk the ship unless it caused an explosion.
If a missile or other object hit the ship, the inertial compensators
could handle it. I rule that, unless surprised, the sensors on the
ship can see the incoming missile and the inertial compensator program
will be ready for it.

Explosions are, naturally, another matter.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 13:14:39 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Trains Planes and Jump Drive

Thu, 08 May 1997 23:01:11 -0800, Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
>> Even if you artifically constrain the cost of passage/cargo to be the
>> same regardless of distance... In the Traveller universe, they have
>> presented the magacorps as running high jump, high profits lines with
>> tramp freighters trying to eek out a living with low jump ships.
>> However, the economics in the rules work the other way around.

>If you have a higher Jump ship you can reach more different planets &
>you can therefore find a planet which will be a _better_ market for the
>cargo you are selling.
[details deleted]

However, it is still true that among _shipping_ companies, it
the jump routes that the large corps will dominate.  The large
corps in Traveller are presented as _shipping_ cargo and passengers.

Now one response might be to attempt to rewrite the background
so that virtually all trade goes by speculative trade and
the magacorps are _trading_ companies instead.  However,
then one would have to answer why cargo prices don't drop
or why anyone would want to try and fix them.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 13:41:25 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: May THUDD entry

- --=====================_863235685==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


- --=====================_863235685==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

T4 Starship Data
Terrapin Exploratory Merchant Cruiser (SSDS using Starship-V2)
submitted by Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
 
Tons: 2400 (Cylinder SL)   Volume: 33600 m3       Cost: 912.8974 MCr
Crew: 49                   High/Mid Pass: 10      Low Pass: 30
Cargo: 852 tons             Controls: Std(Bridge) TL: 12

9 Size                          3 Jump Drive (240 tons/Pc Fuel)
4 Fire Control                  1G Maneuver (Thruster plate, 462 MW)
4x Laser Batteries (3x 95 Mj)   0.9 Power Plant (1057 MW)
(+1) 2-0-0-0                    731.3 Fuel (Scoop 1920, Refine 6)
                                2 Meson Screen (2 MW) 
                                6 Sandcasters (180 cans)
1x spacious hangar (90-ton)     1 Nuclear Damper (15 MW)
2x Sick Bay                     10A 5P 4J Sensors
Machine/Electronic Shops        20 Armor, 16 Structure
Laboratory

Crew: 2 Maneuver, 3 Electronics, 4 Engineer, 10 Gunnery, 5 Maintenance, 12 Ship's Troops, 3 Flight, 1 Medic, 4 Command, 5 Science
Accom: 34 small staterooms, 30 low berths
1x 90 ton "Terrapin Transit" 90t shuttle.

Arameth Gridlore has spent a lifetime exploring the vast reaches of space.
Now, his experience and wisdom are available to you in Gridlore Technologies _Terrapin_ class Merchant Cruiser.

Designed to travel in the deepest reaches of uncharted space, the Terrapin offers a wide variety of features for the adventurous merchant:

Large cargo capacity, over a third of the hull is dedicated hold space!

Long range with a state of the art Jump 3 drive installed.

On-board shops and labs to keep you in business far from the nearest advanced world

Berthing for a full squad of security; now you can feel truly safe when making those important first overtures.

A defensive suite that includes protection from everything up to meson weapons!  If you do have to fight it out, the Terrapin comes with four batteries of powerful lasers, more than enough to discourage even the most foolhardy attacker.

The Terrapin is equipped with strong sensors, and comes with electronic warfare gear to help you avoid costly engagements in the first place.

A word about cost... some designers will make do with cute-rate "modules", and claim that they are giving you a bargain.  But when you are 50pc. from the nearest help, do you want a bargain, or a ship designed to the highest tolerances?  That's the choice here.

Terrapin Transit Shuttle

Tons: 90 (Wedge AF)       Volume: 1260 m3        Cost: 28.45 MCr
Crew: 2                   High/Mid Pass: 0       Low Pass: 0
Cargo: 67 tons            Controls: Std          TL: 12

7 Size0                           No Jump drive
0 Fire Control                    3 Maneuver (Thruster plate, 51.975 MW)
                                  1.6 Power Plant (74 MW) 
                                  0.8 Fuel (Scoop 36) 
                                  0 Meson Screen (0 MW) 
                                  0 Sandcasters (0 cans) 
                                  0 Nuclear Damper
                                  2A 1P 0J Sensors
                                  10 Armor, 7 Structure

Crew: 1 Maneuver, 1 Electronics
Accom: Seats Adequate x 55

Design Notes:

This is my first attempt at a THUDD.. comments are very welcome.

I have tried to balance merchant and exploratory missions with the Terrapin, and feel that it works well in both roles.  The fairly large cargo capacity, along with the passenger compliment, means that the ship is profitable; while the strong sensors and on-board labs make the ship a reasonable scout cruiser.

This design used the excellent spreadsheet "ss-v2.xls"  I can't remember where I found it, but my hat is off to the author, this is very easy to use.

My only real stumbling block was in the weaponry:  I found the instructions for converting to T4 confusing.  The Terrapin uses four batteries of 3 95Mj lasers.. I'm not sure if this works out to:

2-0-0-0  or 4-3-2-0  (the lasers have a ROF of 100)

Hope you enjoy!


- --=====================_863235685==_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"



- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  Q. What do you get when you cross a Unitarian  |
|     with a Jehovah's Witness?                   |
|  A. Someone who knocks on your door for no      |
|     reason at all.                              |
+-------------------------------------------------+
- --=====================_863235685==_--

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 15:41:56 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Mass Drivers

For some interesting TL8-9 Projectile and other military technlogy, check
out http://www.atk.com/business/defense/Products/default.htm

I especially like the STAFF projectile; 120mm tank round capable of top
attack on enemy vehicles hidden behind hills and such (assuming you know
about where they are).

On Wed, 7 May 1997, Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> It looks like there are no fixes for Mass Drivers out there, except the
> direct fire range fix. It also seems painfully obvious (to me, anyway) that
> one is needed, so I've decided to work at one. If I get anywhere I'll post
> my results here (assuming that anyone's interested, that is).

I'll express interesty in that.

> 
> Looking at approaches I've identified two main avenues:
> 
> 1/ Go back to real-world research and work from there. This has the
[snip]
> (for me) is that I probobly can't get hold of much in the way of source
> material.

Check the web.  The advantage we have is that if a "real world" source
talks about "possible future avenues of research" we can run away with it. 

> This is especially true as it's years since I did any physics, and I always
> was hopeless at anything involving electromagnetics.

Likewise not a Physics Person; I would not worry too much about magnetics.
Just consider input energy, efficiency, and output velocity.  The formulas
for kinetic energy to electric energy are realatively simmple and you then
arbitrarily adjust your efficiency to fit your "canon" models below.  Just
be sure not to make the Mass Driver any more efficient than small arms
gauss rifles (or explain it if you do..."economies of scale" come to
mind).

[snippage]
> 1/ At TL9 MDs should have less military usefulness than ETC powered CPRs
> (so that ETC guns still have some value).
> 
> 2/ At TL10+ they should be better than ETCs, though they will probably
> still be bigger when the power supply is considered.

Is there a reason (besides overkill) that ETC and MD technology can't be
used in the same weapon?

> 3/ Once High Energy weapons come into service they'll be relegated to
> indirect fire support. In this role ETC guns may be better, in which case
> the MDs will become obselete.

There will be a period of overlap where the two are equally useful; CPR
guns have advantages in smaller power requirements, MDs in less complex
mechanisms (maybe) and projectile safety (no explosive propellant, more
usable shell weight).

> 4/ While tank mounted MDs will be primarily FE weapons HEAP rounds should
> have some use, so MD calibres should be in the same range as CPR guns
> (besides it sounds dumb having MBT main guns with the same calibre as an
> APC's autocannon).

(I can't figure out what FE is - maybe you mean KE?)  I can see large
caliber MDs used for forward deployed mines, rounds with lots of
submunitions, rocket assisted rounds for long range use, and really big
bunker busters and such.  As you say, though, direct fire rounds will
probably be Discarding Sabot long-rod-penetrator (KE or KEAP or...well
pick your acronym) high velocity rounds.

I also think the above web site reflects the likelyhood of a large number
of guided indirect fire anti-armor weapons being used on future
battlefields. The ability to use self-forging projectiles (SEFOP) or
SADARM (seek and destroy armor) brings artillery back to the battlefield
with a vengance (not that it ever left).  Generally these seem to be
deployed in the form of submunitions, and the bigger the projectile, the
more submunitions of larger size you can deploy.

Can you say 380mm mass driver?  I thought you could.
 
> 5/ The power requirements should be low enough that they are practical for
> vehicle mounts at TL9+

Say vehicle mounts with fusion power plants.

> For this to happen MD penetration will have to take a nose-dive, other-wise
> nobody'll ever go with plasma or fusion guns. To make sense in the indirect
> role they'll at least need to be capable of firing base bleed and rocket
> assisted rounds.

This is kind of unclear; Penetration won't go down.  Are you trying to say
that it will have to level off in its increase relative to tech level?  I
have a feeling that, once MD tech is mature (at TL 10 say) the velocity
will level off at terminal for atmosphere (kind of like ship in water
velocity has reached a mature max)

Of course, materials technology or explosive technology can add power to
the projectile or increase hardness so that Kinetic Energy is eihter
supplemented or more efficiently transmitted to the target.  The advances
can affect ETC tech in the same way though.

I agree that plasma and afusion weapons should be better than MD *at their
short range* when they are introduced, but perhaps Plasma weapons diffuse
more rapidly, and MDs and ETC weapons are used for indirect fire and/or
point defense up to quite high TLs.  

Whew ,good subject.

Pete

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 14:25:39 +0000
From: suzd@goodnet.com
Subject: Traveller Chat

Greetings!

Thursday, May 15, 1997, we will be discussing Playability vs. 
Realism. Where do you draw the line?

Time: 10:00pm Easter, 9:00pm Central, 8:00pm Mountain, 7:00pm Pacific
Place: IG's IRC server, www.imperiumgames.com, ports 6665 and 6666

We had only a small crowd last night, so you'll see this plug again 
later this week as I try to drum up attendees :-)

As long as we're on the subject of dwindling attendance, I need help 
coming up with ideas and volunteers for speakers each week.  If I 
can't rebuild the support, Traveller chat will go the way of the 
dodo and I'll have to go back to hoping someone wanders by to talk to me :-)

Feel free to email me with questions, comments and what-have-you.  If 
you've emailed me in the last week or so and haven't heard back, I'm 
getting there :-)  Ye ole mailbox has been pretty full lately!

Have a really great week!

Suz

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 14:19:19 -0700
From: Jeff Cornish <jcornish@appiantech.com>
Subject: May THUDD: Starwerx Orbital Foundry, LTD's entry; the Nuphraitelle class

>
>THUDDD - May 1997 - "Exploratory Trader"
>
>The vessel to be produced is an exploratory trader.  The design is being
>commissioned by the Imperial government (through the Ministry of
>Commerce); their intent is that vessels of this class will be purchased
>and operated by megacorporations and possibly smaller speculative
>enterprises.  Subsidies are under consideration. 
>
>The following requirements must be met:
>
>* Size:         3000 dt or less
>* Jump:         J2 or more
>* Acceleration: 1G or more
>
>The vessel must be capable of:
>
>* Wilderness refueling (directly or via carried craft)
>* Operation for 1+ year away from starport facilities
>  (repair, resupply, recreation, etc.)
>* Landing/retrieving crew and cargo on planetary surfaces
>  (directly or via carried craft)
>* Defense against similarly sized TL 11- spacecraft
>
>Defense against relic TL 12+ weaponry should also be considered.
>
>Provision must be made for security of landing parties and the care of
>wounded crew members. 
>
>The purpose of this vessel is exploratory trade, well beyond the Imperial
>frontier.  As such, normal economic analysis based on intra-Imperial trade
>profitability does not apply well to this vessel.  However, as with any
>trader, a higher percentage of hull volume devoted to cargo implies higher
>profits -- *if* the requirements above are also met.  The same comments
>apply to the vessel's price.
>
>***
>
>
>
>Nuphraitelle class exploratory merchant ( SSDS )
>	Architect:  Jeff Cornish (jeffreyc@sprynet.com)
>
>Tons: 4000td (SL Wedge)  Vol: 56,000 m3                Cost: 1,514MCr
>										(1,363MCr)
>Crew: 25/31 (/HiAuto)    Pass. High/Medium: 4/10       Pass. Low: 10 	
>Cargo: 1,900 std         Controls: Survey Std(/Bridge) TL 12
>       1,100 std w/ 
>        full collapsable tanks
>   9 Size Rating                   2 Jump Drive (400 std/pc fuel )	
>                                   1 Maneuver ( Thruster, 1000 Mw )	
>2xLaser Emitters (+4) 1/4-3-2-0    1 Power Plant Rating (4x500Mw)
>                                 821 Fuel ( /Scoop:1.0 /Refine:4.1)
>                                1621 Fuel /w full collapsable tanks
>                                   6 Sandcaster ( 30 cans )
>                                   2 Nuclear Damper ( 30Mw )
>                                   3 Meson Screen (10Mw)
>                                   0 Black Globe
>                           A10 P4 J0 Sensors
>                                  20 Armor, 25 Structure	
>									
>1xEngineering Shop ( 6 std )       
>1xVehicle Shop ( 10 std )
>1xLaboratory ( 8 std )
>1xSick Bay ( 8 std )
>		
>1xMinimal Hangar ( 20 std craft )  
>1xSpacious Hanger ( 100 std craft )	
>									
>Crew Details: 3 cmd, 2 mvr, 3 elc, 5 gun, 1 scr, 6 eng, 2 crf, 
>              2 trp, 1 sci, 2 stw, 1 brk, 2 med	
>
>
>
>
>Starwerx Orbital Foundryworks is pround to present it's first entry in the
>latest ISBA competition, the Nuphraitelle.  A medium sized, streamlind wedge
>hull, the Nuphraitelle is outfitted with a 2 parsec jump-drive and fuel for 4
>parsec's travel--2 in standard tankage and 2 in a collapsable fuel bladders
>stowed in the middle cargo bay.
>
>The philosophy with the Nuphraitelle is Opportunity, Capability, Survival.
>
>The Nuphraitelle's main sensor array, a Cassini Mk72 Survey package, is the
>standard among medium-sized Imperial Interstellar Scout Service vessels and
>gives the capability to survey uncharted or undercharted star systems.  The
>onboard laboratory lets the crew support a geophysical, xenobiological or
>astrophysical specialist to provide detailed analysis of the sensor data.  
>
>Nearly half of the Nuphraitelle's volume is taken up by the three main cargo
>bays, each with a capacity of nearly 9000 cubic meters of storage, letting
>the Nuphraitelle haul impressive amounts of goods from the worlds it visits.
>
>Quarters for the crew, 10 middle passengers and 4 high passengers are
>standard, as are 10 low berths, suitable for passengers or livestock.  The
>Captain, of course, recieves his own large stateroom.
>
>The standard crew's complement, beyond the bridge crew and officers, includes
>2 pilots for the small craft, 2 ship's troops for defense and security, a
>Science Officer, and a Broker specialist to aid the crew in matters of
>speculative trading.  2 Medical specialists and 2 Stewards round out the
>complement.
>
>Although the Nuphraitelle's thrusters are only capable of 1-gee
>accelleration, the structure of the ship has been designed to withstand twice
>that stress.  1-gee of contragravity and streamlining make atmospheric
>interface and flight safe on any world, terrestrial or gas-giant.  The
>Nuphraitelle's redundant wilderness fueling capability can scoop and purify a
>jump's worth of fuel in less than 6 hours.  
>
>A spacious hanger for a 100 ton shuttle has been provided, as well as more
>modest facilities for a 20 ton ship's boat.  The shuttle bay, although taking
>up a full 10% of the ship's volume, give extra flexibility to the ship's crew
>in transporting cargo, passengers or handling emergency situations.  Starwerx
>recommends the Starwerx Mule-98 Shuttle, with it's 4-gee performance and
>75-ton cargo capacity (only 57.90MCr)
>
>The Nuphraitelle is the first of Starwerx line of spacecraft and starcraft to
>feature the Mk3 systems automation, reducing the workload on the crew, but as
>with all Starwerx starships, redundant life-support and control systems are
>standard.  A Starwerx Mk8 'Rambler' class self defense package is included: 2
>quad laser cannon, 2 sandcaster batteries, nuclear damper and meson screen.
>
>As the Nuphraitelle's mission profile includes long duration missions away
>from Class A and B starports, a machine shop, engineering shop and sickbay
>are present.  The 100 ton shuttle can be used to evacuate up to
>
>Options available in order to increase the cargo capacity of the Nuphraitelle
>are:
>
>	-removing the collapsable fuel bladders (589.40 std additional cargo)
>	-using parts of the shuttle bay and the shuttle cargo bay (~200 std & 75
>std)
>	-using the ships boat for storage (less than 20 std)
>	
>
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 14:23:42 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Anyone going to BayCon?

>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>Subject: Anyone going to BayCon?
>
>In the spirit of the Toronto TML thing, I wonder if any of the Bay area
>TMLers is going to be at BayCon this year?

When is it?

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: 09 May 1997 21:55:19 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Toronto TML Thing

May I suggest meeting at the Sci-Fi Cafe?  Good cheap food, private rooms and
gaming tables available, and the attached shop sells Traveller!

I plan on escaping Hogtown in the middle of the summer, so anytime except
mid-July to mid-August would suit me.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1301
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 10 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1302



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Re: Trains Planes and Jump Drive
Re: Ship Economics - Making a buck!
Re: QSDS and SSDS (was Re: Meson Guns - The last post?)
May THUDD: Starwerx Orbital Foundry's entry; shuttle craft
reresend:  May THUDD: Starwerx Orbital Foundry's entry; shuttle craft
Traveller movie....NOT
Re: Geonee Post: The Llyrnians
Re: Spectacular Failure...
Re: Traveller Chat
Re: TAS Question
Re: Spectacular Failure...
Imperial Interest Rates, and why free traders lose
Re: Anyone going to BayCon?
Re: M-Drive Question
Re: Communications Question
Re: Position on worlds ?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 09 May 1997 22:01:27 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Re: Trains Planes and Jump Drive

> In the Traveller universe, they have
>presented the magacorps as running high jump, high profits lines with
>tramp freighters trying to eek out a living with low jump ships.
>However, the economics in the rules work the other way around.

Only if you assume that the trade rules are written for the megacorps.  I've
always assumed that the reason high-jump routes weren't profitable for tramp
traders is that the megacorps had sewn up all the lucrative cargos, leaving
very little for the tramps.  The rules support this, if you assume that the
rules are intended for the tramp traders.

If one of my players got rich enough to take on a megacorp, I would leave the
existing rules behind and start a free-form game involving a lot of corporate
intrigue.

Think of it as the difference between running a colony (using World Tamer
rules) and running a high-pop planet.  You need to use different rules,
because the situations (and scales) are different.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 09:36:04 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Ship Economics - Making a buck!

At 00:44 9/05/97 +0000, Kenneth wrote:
>Just like I said in the quote you took from my post, I was comparing 
>the cost that a JUMP-2 ship would have if it jumped 2 parsecs vs 
> THE SAME SHIP jumping 1 parsec.  The costs are the same--no matter 
>how far the ship jumps.
>
>Fuel for the jump will be the same--no matter if the ship jumps one 
>parsec or two.

Is some neat new (or retro?) rule? In MT and TNE if a L-2 ship travel 1
parsec it only uses half the fuel it needs for a J-2. That is what I was
basing my argument on, so if this no longer applies, then I'm wrong. If it
does still aplly, then my argument stands.

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 09:43:25 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: QSDS and SSDS (was Re: Meson Guns - The last post?)

At 00:12 9/05/97 -0800, you wrote:
>T4 has changed jump fuel requirements back to CT's 10% of hull volume
>per jump number from the smaller voulumes required by MT and TNE.
>Many perfectly good ship designs, including most of my favorites, were
>totally invalidated by this change.
>
>In Mt and TNE's Fire Fusion & Steel the ammount of jump fuel required
>was 5 times the size of the drives for the maximum possible jump and not
>10% of the hull volume per jump number.

<Stats snipped>

>Under the old system a more powerfull (higher jump number) jump drive
>was more efficient & this made sense to me.  Under the new system you
>donot have this advantage anymore.

I rather liked the effect of the MT/TNE jump system, because it means in a
really tight design you can spend more cash to put in a bigger, more
efficient drive and end up with a slightly smaller volume devoted to the
jump drive + fuel.

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 15:32:11 -0700
From: Jeff Cornish <jcornish@appiantech.com>
Subject: May THUDD: Starwerx Orbital Foundry's entry; shuttle craft

This is a retransmission from Starwerx Orbital Foundry (Sylea/Core) of
it's entry into the May THUDD.  Some headers (And spelling errors) were
left in the previous transmision


Nuphraitelle class exploratory merchant ( SSDS/  )
	Architect:  Jeff Cornish (jeffreyc@sprynet.com)

Tons: 4000td (SL Wedge)  Vol: 56,000 m3                Cost: 1,514MCr
										(1,363MCr)
Crew: 25/31 (/HiAuto)    Pass. High/Medium: 4/10       Pass. Low: 10 	
Cargo: 1,900 std         Controls: Survey Std(/Bridge) TL 12
       1,100 std w/ 
        full collapsable tanks
   9 Size Rating                   2 Jump Drive (400 std/pc fuel )	
                                   1 Maneuver ( Thruster, 1000 Mw )	
2xLaser Emitters (+4) 1/4-3-2-0    1 Power Plant Rating (4x500Mw)
                                 821 Fuel ( /Scoop:1.0 /Refine:4.1)
                                1621 Fuel /w full collapsable tanks
                                   6 Sandcaster ( 30 cans )
                                   2 Nuclear Damper ( 30Mw )
                                   3 Meson Screen (10Mw)
                                   0 Black Globe
                           A10 P4 J0 Sensors
                                  20 Armor, 25 Structure	
									
1xEngineering Shop ( 6 std )       
1xVehicle Shop ( 10 std )
1xLaboratory ( 8 std )
1xSick Bay ( 8 std )
		
1xMinimal Hangar ( 20 std craft )  
1xSpacious Hanger ( 100 std craft )	
									
Crew Details: 3 cmd, 2 mvr, 3 elc, 5 gun, 1 scr, 6 eng, 2 crf, 
              2 trp, 1 sci, 2 stw, 1 brk, 2 med	




Starwerx Orbital Foundryworks is proud to present it's first entry in
the latest ISBA competition, the Nuphraitelle.  A medium sized,
streamlind wedge hull, the Nuphraitelle is outfitted with a 2 parsec
jump-drive and fuel for 4 parsec's travel--2 in standard tankage and 2
in a collapsable fuel bladders stowed in the middle cargo bay.

The philosophy with the Nuphraitelle is Opportunity, Capability,
Survival.

The Nuphraitelle's main sensor array, a Cassini Mk72 Survey package, is
the standard among medium-sized Imperial Interstellar Scout Service
vessels and gives the capability to survey uncharted or undercharted
star systems.  The onboard laboratory lets the crew support a
geophysical, xenobiological or astrophysical specialist to provide
detailed analysis of the sensor data.  

Nearly half of the Nuphraitelle's volume is taken up by the three main
cargo bays, each with a capacity of nearly 9000 cubic meters of storage,
letting the Nuphraitelle haul impressive amounts of goods from the
worlds it visits.

Quarters for the crew, 10 middle passengers and 4 high passengers are
standard, as are 10 low berths, suitable for passengers or livestock.
The Captain, of course, recieves his own large stateroom.

The standard crew's complement, beyond the bridge crew and officers,
includes 2 pilots for the small craft, 2 ship's troops for defense and
security, a Science Officer, and a Broker specialist to aid the crew in
matters of speculative trading.  2 Medical specialists and 2 Stewards
round out the complement.

Although the Nuphraitelle's thrusters are only capable of 1-gee
accelleration, the structure of the ship has been designed to withstand
twice that stress.  1-gee of contragravity and streamlining make
atmospheric interface and flight safe on any world, terrestrial or
gas-giant.  The Nuphraitelle's redundant wilderness fueling capability
can scoop and purify a jump's worth of fuel in less than 6 hours.  

A spacious hanger for a 100 ton shuttle has been provided, as well as
more modest facilities for a 20 ton ship's boat.  The shuttle bay,
although taking up a full 10% of the ship's volume, give extra
flexibility to the ship's crew in transporting cargo, passengers or
handling emergency situations.  Starwerx recommends the Starwerx Mule-98
Shuttle, with it's 4-gee performance and 75-ton cargo capacity (only
57.90MCr)

The Nuphraitelle is the first of Starwerx line of spacecraft and
starcraft to feature the Mk3 systems automation, reducing the workload
on the crew, but as with all Starwerx starships, redundant life-support
and control systems are standard.  A Starwerx Mk8 'Rambler' class self
defense package is included: 2 quad laser cannon, 2 sandcaster
batteries, nuclear damper and meson screen.

As the Nuphraitelle's mission profile includes long duration missions
away from Class A and B starports, a machine shop, engineering shop and
sickbay are present.  The 100 ton shuttle can be used to evacuate up to

Options available in order to increase the cargo capacity of the
Nuphraitelle are:

	-removing the collapsable fuel bladders (589.40 std additional cargo)
	-using parts of the shuttle bay and the shuttle cargo bay (~200 std &
75 std)
	-using the ships boat for storage (less than 20 std)
	
specifications for Starwerx Mule-98 Shuttle--

Tons: 100 (Needle AF)		Volume: 5,600m3	Cost: 57.9MCr
Crew: 2/2 (/HiAuto)		Pass Hi/Med: 0/0	Pass Low: 0
Cargo: 75.0			Controls: Civilian Std	TL: 12

	8 Size Rating				0 Jump Drive
						4 Maneuver ( Thruster, 100Mw)
>						3 Power Plant Rating ( 2x75Mw )

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 15:47:21 -0700
From: Jeff Cornish <jcornish@appiantech.com>
Subject: reresend:  May THUDD: Starwerx Orbital Foundry's entry; shuttle craft

>...and remember folks, CTRL-ENTER sends your mail in MS Outlook. 
>
>This is a retransmission from Starwerx Orbital Foundry (Sylea/Core) of it's
>entry into the May THUDD.  Some headers (And spelling errors) were left in
>the previous transmision
>
>
>Nuphraitelle class exploratory merchant ( SSDS/  )
>	Architect:  Jeff Cornish (jeffreyc@sprynet.com)
>
>Tons: 4000td (SL Wedge)  Vol: 56,000 m3                Cost: 1,514MCr
>										(1,363MCr)
>Crew: 25/31 (/HiAuto)    Pass. High/Medium: 4/10       Pass. Low: 10 	
>Cargo: 1,900 std         Controls: Survey Std(/Bridge) TL 12
>       1,100 std w/ 
>        full collapsable tanks
>   9 Size Rating                   2 Jump Drive (400 std/pc fuel )	
>                                   1 Maneuver ( Thruster, 1000 Mw )	
>2xLaser Emitters (+4) 1/4-3-2-0    1 Power Plant Rating (4x500Mw)
>                                 821 Fuel ( /Scoop:1.0 /Refine:4.1)
>                                1621 Fuel /w full collapsable tanks
>                                   6 Sandcaster ( 30 cans )
>                                   2 Nuclear Damper ( 30Mw )
>                                   3 Meson Screen (10Mw)
>                                   0 Black Globe
>                           A10 P4 J0 Sensors
>                                  20 Armor, 25 Structure	
>									
>1xEngineering Shop ( 6 std )       
>1xVehicle Shop ( 10 std )
>1xLaboratory ( 8 std )
>1xSick Bay ( 8 std )
>		
>1xMinimal Hangar ( 20 std craft )  
>1xSpacious Hanger ( 100 std craft )	
>									
>Crew Details: 3 cmd, 2 mvr, 3 elc, 5 gun, 1 scr, 6 eng, 2 crf, 
>              2 trp, 1 sci, 2 stw, 1 brk, 2 med	
>
>
>
>
>Starwerx Orbital Foundryworks is proud to present it's first entry in the
>latest ISBA competition, the Nuphraitelle.  A medium sized, streamlind wedge
>hull, the Nuphraitelle is outfitted with a 2 parsec jump-drive and fuel for 4
>parsec's travel--2 in standard tankage and 2 in a collapsable fuel bladders
>stowed in the middle cargo bay.
>
>The philosophy with the Nuphraitelle is Opportunity, Capability, Survival.
>
>The Nuphraitelle's main sensor array, a Cassini Mk72 Survey package, is the
>standard among medium-sized Imperial Interstellar Scout Service vessels and
>gives the capability to survey uncharted or undercharted star systems.  The
>onboard laboratory lets the crew support a geophysical, xenobiological or
>astrophysical specialist to provide detailed analysis of the sensor data.  
>
>Nearly half of the Nuphraitelle's volume is taken up by the three main cargo
>bays, each with a capacity of nearly 9000 cubic meters of storage, letting
>the Nuphraitelle haul impressive amounts of goods from the worlds it visits.
>
>Quarters for the crew, 10 middle passengers and 4 high passengers are
>standard, as are 10 low berths, suitable for passengers or livestock.  The
>Captain, of course, recieves his own large stateroom.
>
>The standard crew's complement, beyond the bridge crew and officers, includes
>2 pilots for the small craft, 2 ship's troops for defense and security, a
>Science Officer, and a Broker specialist to aid the crew in matters of
>speculative trading.  2 Medical specialists and 2 Stewards round out the
>complement.
>
>Although the Nuphraitelle's thrusters are only capable of 1-gee
>accelleration, the structure of the ship has been designed to withstand twice
>that stress.  1-gee of contragravity and streamlining make atmospheric
>interface and flight safe on any world, terrestrial or gas-giant.  The
>Nuphraitelle's redundant wilderness fueling capability can scoop and purify a
>jump's worth of fuel in less than 6 hours.  
>
>A spacious hanger for a 100 ton shuttle has been provided, as well as more
>modest facilities for a 20 ton ship's boat.  The shuttle bay, although taking
>up a full 10% of the ship's volume, give extra flexibility to the ship's crew
>in transporting cargo, passengers or handling emergency situations.  Starwerx
>recommends the Starwerx Mule-98 Shuttle, with it's 4-gee performance and
>75-ton cargo capacity (only 57.90MCr)
>
>The Nuphraitelle is the first of Starwerx line of spacecraft and starcraft to
>feature the Mk3 systems automation, reducing the workload on the crew, but as
>with all Starwerx starships, redundant life-support and control systems are
>standard.  A Starwerx Mk8 'Rambler' class self defense package is included: 2
>quad laser cannon, 2 sandcaster batteries, nuclear damper and meson screen.
>
>As the Nuphraitelle's mission profile includes long duration missions away
>from Class A and B starports, a machine shop, engineering shop and sickbay
>are present.  The 100 ton shuttle can be used to evacuate up to
>
>Options available in order to increase the cargo capacity of the Nuphraitelle
>are:
>
>	-removing the collapsable fuel bladders (589.40 std additional cargo)
>	-using parts of the shuttle bay and the shuttle cargo bay (~200 std & 75
>std)
>	-using the ships boat for storage (less than 20 std)
>	
>specifications for Starwerx Mule-98 Shuttle--
>
>Tons: 100 (Needle AF)		Volume: 5,600m3	Cost: 57.9MCr
>Crew: 2/2 (/HiAuto)		Pass Hi/Med: 0/0	Pass Low: 0
>Cargo: 75.0			Controls: Civilian Std	TL: 12
>
>	8 Size Rating				0 Jump Drive
>						4 Maneuver ( Thruster, 100Mw)
>						3 Power Plant Rating ( 2x75Mw )
>						2 Fuel
>						0 Sandcaster
>						0 Nuclear Damper
>						0 Meson Screen
>						0 Black Globe
>				            A1 P2 J0 Sensors
>						10 Armor, 10 Structure
>
>Crew: 1 mvr, 1 elc
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 16:02:56 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Traveller movie....NOT

Glenn was talking about this movie (quoted from local paper):

``Traveller,'' an original and intensely engaging movie, belongs to this
engrossing genre. The closed community at its heart - the semi-itinerant
Irish-American gypsy clans who call themselves Travellers - is one we've
never seen before. 

Descended from Ireland's indigenous horse-trading scam artists, the
Travellers came over with their more reputable countrymen in the
great waves of 19th century immigration. Like all other gypsies, the
Travellers live by a code that stringently divides the population into us
and them, and everyone outside the clan is legitimate prey. About the
most you can say for their ethos is that fraud, not violence, is their
thing. "

Zhunastu School of Contact anyone?

(Unrelated rant warning....)

Nope, not Traveller at all...notice this blurb that "violence is not their
thing" Nope oh no, not Traveller, where apparently ANY starship that
doesn't have 600 gajillion watt lasers and 43 spinal deep meson batteries,
and several thousand missiles can't _possibly_ call itself a Free Trader.

Folks...this months THUDD competition was supposed to be a BREAK from
military ships! all it seems to have engendered is yet ANOTHER discussion
about whose meson gun or laser is bigger. 

Ok, I'll go have a beer and calm down now.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 18:46:50 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Geonee Post: The Llyrnians

First off, Carlos, an excellent post, as always!  I have a few minor nits
I'd like to pick on the scientific front....

Quoth Carlos Alos-Ferrer:
> Homeworld (Milieu Zero) in Shokee subsector / Massilia:
> Llyrn		0931	D333AAA-A		Na Po Hi	933	F8 VI

I could have sworn I remembered you describing the Llyrn as heavy-
worlders, though I may just be confusing them with their more muscular
human patrons.  :-)  But an Earth-density world 3,000 miles in diameter
would have a gravity of some 0.375 g's, which doesn't give me too much
confidence in the inhabitants' fighting ability in close quarters.  (Their
digging prowess might assist in that, of course, but you don't specify how
they do it -- strong claws?  acid expectorant?)  The close quarters they
evolved in and still inhabit wouldn't give me great confidence either in
any natural evolved ability, say, with missile weapons -- unlike humans,
they have no open savannahs on which to practice hurling for millions of
years.  Again, perhaps Geonee training of some elite cadres would help.
But I'd like to know how these guys get such a studly reputation.... :-)

> Llyrn is a cold world, a satellite of a gas giant orbiting a small star.
> Its upper crust is full of huge natural caves. Life appeared on these caves
> around geothermal energy sources, and most of the native life forms are
> subterranean, cave-bound or tunnel-dwellers.

The "looser" side of me accepts the caves willingly, the crankier side
wants to know how they got there.  Does anybody on TML know how lava tubes
form?  I know there's suspicion that we might find such on the Moon, which
implies that they can form in a vacuum.  I also seem to remember that
large hollows can be formed when a magma reservoir "drains away" from
beneath a volcano.  Llyrn's low gravity would also assist in preventing
collapses in caves that wouldn't survive on Earth.

The geothermal energy sources is a nice touch, but begs the question: what
precisely is the biochemistry upon which Llyrnian life is based?  With a
type 3 atmosphere ("very thin") it isn't likely to be based much on gas
exchange.  IIRC, Earth's geothermally supported life doesn't rely on
atmosphere either.  So what does primitive (and, thence, more advanced)
Llyrnian life subsist on?  Does it use sulfur instead of oxygen?  Do more
advanced Llyrnian life forms "eat" sulfur, hoarding it in specially-
evolved "lung" pouches for later metabolism, to allow travel outside the
rich, comfortable volcanic areas?  "Life support" for Llyrnian caves would
thus consist of heating and sulfur-conveyors.

One could posit, I suppose, that "very thin" is the _surface_ pressure,
but that there's more atmosphere lower down, and perhaps even liquid water
(which would freeze and/or evaporate at lower pressures, I believe).  But,
again, Llyrn's weak gravity foils that, since the pressure gradient is
likely to be too small to allow that except for caves unbelievably low
down in the crust.  And I have trouble believing that caves totally sealed
off from the surface and holding higher internal pressure could survive
over evolutionary time-scales.

Alternately, perhaps the Llyrn could be modeled somewhat on the Eshaar
Ashah of the Keith brothers' FASA adventure "Ordeal by Eshaar".  That
planet had a hot, dense, insidious atmosphere, but perhaps the volcanic
vents would provide a similar environment in the immediate area.  To quote
a few relevant bits: "Surface atmospheric pressure: ...average lowland --
c. 3000mm [how many mmHg to an atm?  770?  That makes almost 4atm, which
is too much for Llyrnian caves to hold].  Atmospheric composition: CO2
83%; N2 9%; Si02 4%; other nitrogen and oxide compounds 2%.  Cloud
composition: H2O (steam)  46%; S (liquid) 40%; H2SO4 10%; HNO3 2%; HF
2%....  [Eshaar has] a mean surface temperature of 150 C.  Both liquid
sulfur and sulfuric acid serve as water in an environment where water
exists only as steam and where all other oxygen is locked up in sulfur,
carbon, and mineral oxides.... Native life forms are silicone-based....
The crystalline formations that pass for plants on Eshaar take liquid
sulfur and gaseous water from the environment and manufacture sulfuric
acid.  Animals use sulfuric acid in sustained electro- chemical reactions
with various metals (generally zinc or copper)  [JLL:  another reason for
tunneling!] within their bodies and give off as metabolic by-products
liquid sulfur and steam.  Many life forms, both plant and animal,
metabolize the atmosphere directly; most share in the water-sulfur-
sulfuric acid cycle.  Eshaaran life forms have been referred to as 'living
storage batteries.'" 

Again, there are multiple problems with the comparison, but perhaps it's
food for thought.

> a visual band which circles the whole head

I think such a distributed visual system would probably be a weak one --
which would be reasonable given the subterranean origins of the Llyrn.
What is their primary sense?  Smell and hearing would be unlikely if they
exist in a thin atmosphere -- as would, unfortunately, the sonar you
posit.  Perhaps, mole-like, they rely on sensing vibrations in the
surrounding rock and soil?

> 	The Llyrnians are basically tunnel-dwellers (they dwell the tunnels
> "upwards" using all three arms)

Quick usage note: "dwell" in modern English simply means "inhabit".  I
suspect you mean "dig" above, or possibly "delve", which is an archaic
word.

> Their vision centers on the infrared part of the spectrum.

Reasonable, if their evolutionary ancestors grew up relying on geothermal
vents.  Again, though, a "vision ribbon" isn't likely to be terribly
precise (not that IR vision is -- such long-wavelength light yields very
"fuzzy" images anyway).

> [At first contact] Llyrn was then at TL 3, but the population had
> already exceeded the one thousand figure.

I should hope so!  There have been over a thousand humans at least since
the modern form evolved, and I'd be surprised if a race could make it to
TL3 in such numbers without dangerous inbreeding.

Another comment: you don't mention how the three sexes work.  Does one
provide the egg, fertilized at different times by the other two?  Do the
three have to get together at the same time?  Do Llyrn lay eggs or bear
live young?

> a demographic explosion occurred.

Grammar nit: a "demographic explosion" would imply that the Llyrn were
suddenly exposed to a plague of census/survey takers.  You mean simply
a "population explosion."

> The effectiveness of the Llyrnians in boarding operations and
> infiltration operations was terrible.

I've given reasons above why this might be so (their "effectiveness... was
terrible"), but I don't think that's what you really mean.  :-)  Try
"fearsome" instead.

All in all, an excellent write-up -- and I know it's mean to be a simple
sketch.  I've just pointed up the areas where I think more detail is
needed to make the race a believable one (and hopefully, in doing so, an
all the more interesting one!).

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 02:05:34 -0400
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Spectacular Failure...

At 02:52 AM 5/8/97 EST, Richard wrote:

<Snip>...
>You could try my house rule: rolling 3 sixes on a task roll is automatic
>failure, rolling 3 sixes and above your target is spectacular failure.

I like this!  I've been trying to add a bit of uncertainty to the mindset
of our PC pilot (skill = 4)...  He rarely fouls up.  This will add the
chance of "normal" failure when he's trying something very difficult...  

I haven't looked at the various likelihoods involved...  Does this cause
any *weird* anomolies?


Tx!


- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 02:14:53 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Chat

> Greetings!
> 
> Thursday, May 15, 1997, we will be discussing Playability vs. 
> Realism. Where do you draw the line?

Uh, that would be TNE--realism, T4--playabiltiy.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 02:14:52 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: TAS Question

> Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> > 
> > > TAS facilities are at class A and B starports only.
> > 
> > Where did you find this rule?  I've been looking, but I can't seem to
> > find it.
> > 
> 
> I'm at work now (and, therefore, don't have my Traveller stuff
> with me) but I think it's in the definitions for starports. It may
> also be in the world design rules.

Yes, I looked there, but I found no mention of the TAS locations.

Hmmm....where the heck did I see that before...

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 02:18:01 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Spectacular Failure...

> At 02:52 AM 5/8/97 EST, Richard wrote:
> 
> <Snip>...
> >You could try my house rule: rolling 3 sixes on a task roll is automatic
> >failure, rolling 3 sixes and above your target is spectacular failure.
> 
> I like this!  I've been trying to add a bit of uncertainty to the mindset
> of our PC pilot (skill = 4)...  He rarely fouls up.  This will add the
> chance of "normal" failure when he's trying something very difficult...  
> 
> I haven't looked at the various likelihoods involved...  Does this cause
> any *weird* anomolies?

I like the idea as well, but I'm curious about the numbers.  I'd be 
interested too if there were any "weird anomolies".

Kenneth.
> 
> 
> Tx!
> 
> 
> ---------------
> Bill Rutherford
> worj@topgun.cinecom.com
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 18:24:31 -0700
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au>
Subject: Imperial Interest Rates, and why free traders lose

For my money, 6.25% is a good "minimum rate of return on capital" for a 
merchant ship - figure 3% for the ruling rate of interest (it's a nice 
round number, and close enough to the historical long-run real rate of 
interest) and 3.25% as risk premium.

As to the advantages of megacorps vis a vis free traders, a big one is 
liquid capital ... most free traders just dont have the cash up front
to buy the truly profitable cargos ... eg a Fat Trader carrying an 
entire cargo of PGMP-12s, to re-equip a planetary army. Whats that 
goanna cost, in cash up front ??? OTOH the potential profits are 
likewise huge - 10% profit on a 100 megacredit cargo is more than 100% 
profit on a 5 megacredit cargo. But most free traders dont have the 
capital to plonk down - they are usually scraping up mortgage payments.
Thus the domination of the megacorps - people trust LSP when they 
promise to pay the 10 megacredits in 6 months, in a way they dont trust
Joe Trader.

The other advantage is long-term relationships. If you show up on a regular
schedule and deliver on promises, people trust you more. Megacorps can also
do lots of favours for planetary governments and so on, which will be 
returned in spades, in the form of preferential deals. Corporations have 
sales staff permanently on planets, looking for deals week in week out. Free
Traders need to find a cargo in six days or less.

Ian Whitchurch

PS Part three of the New Trade System coming up ... I busted a collar bone 
playing rugby today, and dont feel like typing more right now

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 02:45:59 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Anyone going to BayCon?

At 02:23 PM 5/9/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>>Subject: Anyone going to BayCon?
>>
>>In the spirit of the Toronto TML thing, I wonder if any of the Bay area
>>TMLers is going to be at BayCon this year?
>
>When is it?

May 23-27, at the Doubletree near the San Jose airport.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|  Q. What do you get when you cross a Unitarian  |
|     with a Jehovah's Witness?                   |
|  A. Someone who knocks on your door for no      |
|     reason at all.                              |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 23:51:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: M-Drive Question

In mail you write:

> If you've got a ship with an M-Drive that produces 1 G acceleration, 
> how does that ship lift off from a planet with a gravitational field 
> rated at 2 Gs?

We always used the simple explanation. If the surface g exceeds the
drive rating, then you don't land, much less takeoff. So you either use
the orbital station (if there is one) or you don't visit. 

The first group had a Scout with a scout ship. So they were in pretty
good shape. When they got around to looking at traders they were a bit
picky... :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 00:14:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Communications Question

In mail you write:

> OK, sarcasm aside, does that mean that the different refractive indexes for
> differing frequencies of light are due to them having different speeds
> through the medium they're in?

Index of refraction = c/(speed of light in material)

So in diamond, with an index of refraction of 2.42, means that light
travels at 1/2.42 of c. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 22:37:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Position on worlds ?

In mail you write:

> How about a line from pole to pole bisecting the light side when the planet
> is at perigee or apogee in it's orbit? Would have to precisely time the
> orbit to get the proper place.

And the orbital period (year) would have to be *exactly* divisible by
the rotational period (day). Otherwise you get a different line every
year. 

Oh yeah, if the orbit is so circular that you can't accurately
determine the apogee, you can't determine the prime meridian (zero
line) either.

A workable suggestion is that until an "official" prime meridian is
determined, use the meridian where local noon matches noon UTC on the
day of discovery. 

After mapping the surface from orbit, then you pick a "reasonable"
prime meridian according to things like distribution of hydro
percentage, notable landmarks, etc. If there are natives, use theirs if
they have a consensus (earth didn't until the mid 1800s).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1302
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 10 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1303



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Salute!
Re: Position on worlds ?
Re: Ship Economics - Making a buck!
Re: Griffen SDB Mk II
Re: [T97#1288] Re: Contact: Sayat
Re: Communication Question
Re: Communication question
Re: TAS Question
Re: Some Questions
Re: THUDDD Comments
Re: Anyone going to BayCon?
Re: Communication Question
Re: M-Drive Question
Re: TAS Question
Re: Some Questions
Re: Ship economics
Re: Ship economics -- fuel consumption

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 01:32:30 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Salute!

In mail you write:

> You know, it's not the *concept* of the meson cannon I hate..I'm reasonably
> comfortable waving my hands over that..I just don't like weapons that
> bypass the armor and hit the inside of the ship. That's just not
> 'estheticly' pleasing.  I *do* like deep site meson cannon for defending
> planets though.

Well, there's a cute idea John W. Campbell had in one of his stories.
The weapon was gravity based, so it released its energy at the center
of mass of the target. You have to aim close enough, but once it gets
within range the "pulse" homes on the CoM by itself. 

The nice difference between this and the Meson gun is that it goes for
a pretty specific point. So once the enemy catches on, they build ships
with an empty CoM and lots of armor around the empty space!

Of course if your *other* weaponry manages to break off a big chunk of
the ship, then the CoM shifts. That also means that you have to be
careful about placing cargo and fuel so as to keep the COM in the
armored area. :-)

In short, it's *way* too much trouble for merchants to bother with, and
a pain to deal with on military ships. Which strikes me as being pretty
normal. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 22:52:47 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Position on worlds ?

In mail you write:

>> How about a line from pole to pole bisecting the light side when the planet
>> is at perigee or apogee in it's orbit? Would have to precisely time the
>> orbit to get the proper place.
>
> True, and calculating the position would be a simple task for the 
> astrogation program, probably only requiring a few seconds of sensor 
> data on the system's motion pattern.  Damn good idea.

Actually, it'd require several *days* of obervation to even *begin* to
determine the orbit's parameters. While in theory an observation of the
planet's position and velocity would give an exact orbit, in the real
world the problem is that you need to determine the position and
velocity *of the center of the planet* with respect to the center of
the star. And you need it to fairly high accuracy. Centimeters make a
difference when there are months or years for them to add up.

I'd say that a *week* of observations would give semi reliable data for
the inner orbits. For outer orbits, it could take months or years. 

Figure that you need around 5% of the orbit observed to get a
reasonable baseline. That *should* let you get within a few hundred
diameters when you return to the system later.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 23:06:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Ship Economics - Making a buck!

In mail you write:

> think they can charge more; if you were travelling 3 parsecs wouldn't you
> be willing to pay a little more to get there in one week instead of 3?

This is the second post making this assumption, so I'd better jump in.
Going three parsecs in a Jump 1 ship onnly takes three weeks if the
ship has the fuel to make three sequential jumps without refueling and
is jumping to empty hexes for all but the last one.

The next "quickest" is if you are jumping via systems not worth
stopping at (Port types EFX?), and gas giant refueling. Even then,
there will be a day or two of time taken betwee jumps.

The *normal* situation is that the ship jumps to another world, spends
a week there, then jumps to a second world, spends another week, then
jumps to the third system. That's *five* weeks. 

The only way to get a captain to forego the intermediate stops is by
buying *all* the passenger and cargo slots. 

			time (weeks)
dist	J1	J2	J3	J4	J5	J6
- ----	---	---	---	---	---	---
1	1	1	1	1	1	1
2	3	1	1	1	1	1
3	5	3	1	1	1	1
4	7	3	3	1	1	1
5	9	5	3	3	1	1
6	11	5	3	3	3	1

The basic formula for time to cover distance this way is:

	weeks = (no._of_jumps*2)-1

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 00:20:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Griffen SDB Mk II

In mail you write:

> At 09:59 7/05/97 -0400, you wrote:
>>I added a standard 50 Ton missile bay from SSDS, I'll save the custom
>>Missile Bay for my next SDB, the Chimera. A 900 ton SDB, with over 25 
>>missile MFDs.  It is intended to sit inside of a gas giant, with dozens
>>of missiles prelaunched and just passvily waiting for an enemy.  When
>>an enemy is detected, it activates the waiting missiles and launches
>>them all at the enemy.  The missiles will have to be modified, so that
>>they will stay at a constant depth in the gas giant. They will need
>>contra grav and a thruster to keep them up, since contra grav only gets
>>rid of 99% of the weight. Does this seem like a viable tactic to everyone?
>
> Perhaps, but they'll be quite big, after you put enugh fuel to handle
> station keeping in a GG, given the normal weather you find there. I'd go
> for putting them in orbit, as most GGs have at least small rings (assuming
> our solar system is somewhat representative) so they could be hidden in them.

Well, if you can build a purification plant that's small enough to put
in the missile, it'll hang around for a *long* time. 

As for keeping them at a constant depth, use a balloon. 

Minor problem is what kind of sensors are they going to be using? If
they are at all "deep" the sensor range drops to the point where it is
useless. Gas Giants are *very* noisy at radio and radar wavelengths,
and not very transparent at IR, visual or UV wavelengths. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 01:45:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: [T97#1288] Re: Contact: Sayat

In mail you write:

>
> T::>The idea was to keep gross anatomical changes to the Sayat minimal -- no
>  ::>ovipositors.  I wanted them to be clearly genetically engineered but not
>  ::>necessarily *efficiently* engineered. 

Humans *already* have an ovipositor. It delivers modified, mobile ova
called "sperm". It's a heavily modified clitoris called the penis.

So just "back track" things a bit. Modify the X chromosome a bit and
eliminate the Y. The urethra is as in a woman. The clitoris is modified
to be larger and when engorged is finger thick and about a foot long.
It's also prehensile so as to be able to connect more easily (a trait a
number of mammals have)

One fallopian tube connects to the modified clitoris, the other to the
uterus. Which means that the Sayat desire to pentrate or be pentrated
depending on which ovary produces the egg. If both are active (that's
how you get fraternal twins), then they either try for a double
pentration (not easy!) or waste the ova routed thru the clitoris. Or
they screw themselves!

This is likely to be pretty easy as genetic engineering goes. The
"unfinished" bits would be minor details such as the fact that you have
to stay coupled for the better part of an hour to give the ovum time to
travel the required distance. That's because they don't have any sort
of "seminal fluid" to wash it thru. Or at least not much.

From this I deduce two more details. The Sayat "tie" like dogs and
certain other critters, and they likely have mindblowing orgasms the
whole time to encourage them to stay linked or else they fall asleep
until the exchange is completed. There's no such thing as a
"quicky". And it makes mating rather invloved and time consuming.

Hmmm. I can think of arguments both ways on the long orgasm vs short &
sleep issue. Oh well.

Assuming that you believe Freudian psychologists, this makes the Sayat
very, *very* unhuman. No "castration fear", no real difference between
mother and father (and *both* are potential partners except for any
taboos the society may have). I expect there's a taboo against having
sex with yourself, as that'd be much worse than incest genetically
speaking. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 23:22:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Communication Question

In mail you write:

> The question came up of how much of a time lag is there for 
> communications.
>
> How I handled this was to figure the linear distance between the 
> station and the planet (I had already made a map of the system prior 
> to the session, and it was easy to calculate the distance between the 
> station and the planet).  Then, we just calculated time based on the 
> communication traveling at the speed of light.  It turned out that 
> the time lag was around 11 minutes.
>
> How do you guys handle long distance communications like this?

It takes as long as it takes. So that means that it's 11 minutes
between when they send something and when it is received. Then it takes
however long it takes for the folks to respond to what was received.
Then it's *another* 11 minutes before the answer is received.  So the
lag is *twice* the distance as far as anyone at either end is concerned.

BTW, did you allow for the fact that the planet and station will likely
be in different parts of their orbits? Possibly even on opposite sides
of the star?

> I figured maser communications would travel at the speed of light, 
> but what about Radio communications?  How fast do radio waves 
> travel in space?

*All* electromagnetic radiation travels at c. Light, Xray, UV, IR,
radar, radio, etc. It's all just different wavelengths for the same
stuff. 

> I see all types of applications for this.  For instance, when a 
> starship first enters a system and locks on to the homing 
> transmission from the starport.  How much of a time lag is there.  
> This could also be applied in starship combat if the distances are 
> long enough.
>
> So, the question of this post is:  How do you handle long distance 
> communications and time lags in your games?

Well, for planetary positions, you figure the length of the year (the
formulas are in most of the expanded world detailing systems. You need
mass of the star, and orbital radius). pick an arbitrary number between
0 and 360. That's where the planet started out (at whatever "base date"
you use). Figure the number of days since then, divide that by the
length of the year. Throw away the integer part (unless you want to
know how many local years it has been since the base date). Multiply
the fractional part by 360 and add in the starting position. If greater
than 360, subtract 360. That's the orbital position of the planet
(measured from an arbitary baseline). 

For time lag, you figure the positions and distances. And figure that
if the line of sight comes within a few degrees of the star, it isn't
possible to communicate except by realying thru another planet or
station that has a better line of sight (in which case you have to
figure the lag each way on each *leg* of the trip).

If the lag is only a few seconds (like earth to moon) ignore it, it's
not worth figuring. If it's a few minutes, it's going to make
conversation impossible. You might try *simulating* it by having
players write down what they are sending, hand it to you, and you hand
it to the other player after the right amount of time has passed. If
you just *suggest* this, it'll get the lag across to the players. 

But essentially, beyond a few light seconds your communication reverts
to being "email". So they are going to be *real* cramped....

If they are in the middle of a fight and send for help, they aren't
going to get saved, but they might get avenged...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 00:26:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Communication question

In mail you write:

> hi! Some comments=E9/questions :)

>         Most planetary athmospheres "stop" certain frequencies - for
> instance, we get a lot of UV protection and such.  Wouldn't that
> interfere with certain long range comm. devices like lasercomm/maser,
> radio and such?  Also, wouldn't a radio or other device transmitting
> such a strong signal be dangerous to bystanders?=20

There are radio wavelengths that bounce off the ionisphere, but shorter
wavelngths will go right through. The break point is somewhere between
CB frequencies (27 Mhz?) and TV frequencies (50 MHz?).

And being near a powerful transmitter is dangerous only to the extent
that the body interacts with the frequencies. Anything longer than 2
meters wavelength has waves that are a lot bigger than the body, and
thus sort of "skip over" insignificant things like people. You can
still get RF burns if you get close enough to the antenna for the
voltage to arc over. 

Things don't really get dangerous until you hit frequencies like the
resonant frequencies of various molecules in the body. Then they start
flipping back and forth in synch with the signal. That's how microwave
ovens work. 

>         Transmission delay: Masers, lasercomm, et al. go at light
> speed or slightly slower in certain media...  radio signals might
> actually go much slower because the signal doesn't always go in a
> straight line to its target.  BTW, if you try to communicate with
> someone on a planet, wouldn't they be out of reach half of the time
> because they're on the wrong side of the planet?  How many
> satellites/repeaters would you need to ensure that you can get in
> touch with anybody anywhere on a planet from any angle of approach?
> (I'm thinking 6 at least, like a cube around the planet)

You only need 3, unless geosynch orbit is *really* close to the planet
(which requires unreasonably fast rotations for the planet). The
signals will be a bit hard to receive near the poles, but that can be
handled via the *local* comm-net. Likely to be something like the
Motorla Iridium system or one of it's competitors. 60-100 satellites in
low orbit, each acting like a cell phone site. The long range comm
systems at geosynch orbit would tie into this if you were trying to
call someone.

I'd see the sequence as being like this:

Surface fixed
	high bandwidth via fiber optics or similar technology. Good
	for point to point on planetary surfaces.

Surface/Air mobile
	Either tying into cell sites that are part of the fiber network
        (high bandwidth) or using low orbit satellites (lower bandwith)
        Or both.

Orbit to Surface/Air
	Either direct to ground station which ties into surface net, or
	to satellite station (geosynch?) that relays to a ground
	station or to the low orbit net.

Orbit to orbit
	Direct, or via link thru planetary geosynch net.

Interplanetary (anything over a few light seconds)
	link between planetary geosynch nets when line of sight
	possible. When LOS not possible, relay thru another planet or
	station. 

To organize it by nets rather than distances:

Surface Net
	a network using fixed links wired (or fiber optic) between
	fixed points. Bandwidth limited by switching systems (telephone
	model) or by capacity of major links/routers (Internet model)
	Used for point to point and ground to ground "broadcast" (think
	"cable TV")
	Has links to Low Orbit Net, High Orbit Net.

Low Orbit Net
	A network of satellite relays accessed by terminals much like
	cell phones. Bandwidth tends to be lower than Surface net due
	to limits on number of frequencies available.
	Used for mobile point to point.
	Has links to Surface Net, High Orbit Net.

High Orbit Net
	Composed of three or more satellites in Clarke orbits
	(geosynchronous and equatorial), possibly supplemented by a
	pair of polar statites (stations using solar sails to counter
	gravity and stay directly over each pole, usually at *large*
	distance due to dynamical concerns).
	Used for orbit to ground broadcast, and as relay points for
	ground/orbit orbit/orbit and interplanetary traffic.
	Has links to Interplanetary Net, Surface Net, Low Orbit Net,
	X-boat Net.

Interplanetary Net
	Composed of the High Orbit Net of the mainworld and any other
	High Orbit Nets in the system, as well as major stations and
	ships more than a few light seconds out from the ships/stations.
	Used for interplanetary and planet to ship/station traffic.
	
Xboat Net
	See rules. :-)

Note that the High Orbit Nets can be composed of unmanned units, thus
allowing a world to have both a high orbit and low orbit net for only a
few million credits. The statites are more used for the interplanetary
links, as their positions are the easiest to track. Not that it matters
a lot, even maser beams tend to spread enough to hit the whole planet
and even the statites (at a light second or more!) when travelling
interplanetary distances. The low orbit net is *always* unmanned.

The low orbit net is actually somewhat optional, as it's only needed if
you have a lot of mobile stations, don't want *millions* of cell sites
on the ground, and don't want the long time lag that relaying thru a
high orbit satellite will give. 

I expect that the Vilani don't like low orbit nets, but the Terrans
like them, both because they can be setup quickly around a world rather
than having to put in a lot of infrastructure on the ground and because
they provide redundancy for the surface net. That redundancy is the
only good thing about such nets if you ask the Vilani. :-)

Low pop worlds may have *only* a low orbit net, and no surface net.
High pop worlds will *always* have a surface net, and probably a low
orbit net as well depending on circumstances.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 07:29:20 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: TAS Question

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> 
> Hmmm....where the heck did I see that before...
> 

In the character generation rules. I quote from my house rules, which
are a modified form of MT.

Travellers' Aid:  The Travellers' Aid Society is a private organization
which maintains hostels and facilities at all class A and B starports in 
human space.  Such facilities are available (at reasonable cost) to 
members and their guests.  See the library entry on Traveller's Aid 
Society for more details.
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 16:20:46 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Some Questions

>->  I really liked the plotline of the first two games with #2 being 
>->  my fave!  
- -> I really liked the Traveller computer games as well, but I've got to 
- -> admit, I didn't think #2 was better than #1.
I didn't say that. What i meant was that i liked the plot better then 
the plot of the first game... It gave me loads of inspirations for my 
next sessions.
- -> The plot was cool, and the interface was better designed, but I got 
- -> so board going to the same planet all the time.
The game was much easier to Navigate that way, but yes, i also felt 
that seeing the same starport on every planet was getting tedious 
after a while!
- -> I mean, each planet looked the same.  Every once in a while, they 
- -> would move a building or something, but that was so damn boring.
Somehow, i learned to ignore all that, and concentrated only on the 
plot, which was what kept me going.
 
But back to my question: Does really nobody have an idea on what was 
planned for the third game?Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 11:01:07 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: THUDDD Comments

At 11:25 am 05/09/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>On Fri, 9 May 1997, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Any planet with an ionisphere has a *major* potential difference
>> between the surface and the ionisphere. It runs about 1000 volts per
>> meter on earth. The ionisphere and the surface thus form the plates of
>> a giant spherical capacitor.
>> 
>> Now, take a big tunable laser. Mount it on a ship. Use it to ionize a
>> path from the ionisphere to the ground. You get a "lightning bolt" with
>> a power level more suited to an asteroid impact.
>> 
>> It may be more of a "slow burn". Taking a few hours to drain the
>> charge. Either way it'll act like EMP only a *billion* times worse.
>> Electronics fry, long conductors melt, etc, etc. And your ship is
>> floating "serenely" above the devastation.

>
>NASA played with this last year with a power generating satellite that
>exploited this effect. The experiment was a partial success, the cable
>snapped 'cause it got fried by the current, IIRC.

	Err, not quite, as the shuttle flies above the atmosphere, not in it (is
the ionosphere not the upper layer of the atmosphere?). IIRC correctly,
NASA was playing with, basically, a giant generator. For a generator, all
you need to do is move a conductor through a magnetic field. That'll cause
a current flow. The earth has a very large magnetic field ... stretch out a
very long conductor, and let the current flow!

	A generator can also be reversed and operated as a motor. This idea has
also been proposed as a way to raise and lower a satellite's orbit: if you
pass a current through a conductor in the presence of a magnetic field, it
creates a force on the conductor. So instead of tapping juice off, you pump
juice in.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 10:19:02 -0700
From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
Subject: Re: Anyone going to BayCon?

At 02:45 AM 5/10/97 -0700, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>At 02:23 PM 5/9/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>>>Subject: Anyone going to BayCon?
>>>
>>>In the spirit of the Toronto TML thing, I wonder if any of the Bay area
>>>TMLers is going to be at BayCon this year?
>>
>>When is it?
>
>May 23-27, at the Doubletree near the San Jose airport.

Oookay, so: for those of us who are local, is it worth going to?  How big a
Con is this, and is it just another a GameCon?  (Not that I'm against that
or anything, I just need to set my expectations and scruples accordingly. :) )


- --

Mike Sellers        Internet Game Designer       msellers@ricochet.net

"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others 
may despise it, is the invention of good games.  And it cannot be done 
by men out of touch with their instinctive values."  - Carl Jung

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 12:27:39 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Communication Question

> BTW, did you allow for the fact that the planet and station will likely
> be in different parts of their orbits? Possibly even on opposite sides
> of the star?

I sure did.  I used that handy table in the Starship Operator's 
Manual for determining this.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 12:27:37 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: M-Drive Question

> The first group had a Scout with a scout ship. So they were in pretty
> good shape. When they got around to looking at traders they were a bit
> picky... :-)

I guess I like the DGP overdrive explanation better.  It seems to me 
that the free traders, intended for use on backwater worlds, would 
not be that limited in landing;/taking off from worlds.

Especially subsidized merchants.  These ships are created to service 
worlds off the mains, and they only have a 1G M-Drive.

How could the government expect worlds that are off the beaten path 
to be serviced if the ships they are subsidizing to service them 
cannot land/take off from many of them?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 12:27:36 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: TAS Question

> In the character generation rules. I quote from my house rules, which
> are a modified form of MT.
> 
> Travellers' Aid: <snipity snip snip>

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

That was driving me nuts, and I know I've seen it a hundred times.  I 
kept looking in the Space Travel section of the different rules sets 
I have where it lists info on the TAS.

I didn't think to look under the mustering out benefits.  That's 
exactly what I needed, and the same rule is on page 24 of T4 Book 1.

Eventhough the book says the TAS hotels are located at "all class A 
and B starports in human space", I like your idea of limiting it by 
population.

As a general rule, what do you use as the population cut of point--or 
do you just wing it on a case by case basis?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 12:27:40 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Some Questions

> >->  I really liked the plotline of the first two games with #2 being 
> >->  my fave! 

> -> I really liked the Traveller computer games as well, but I've got to 
> -> admit, I didn't think #2 was better than #1.

> I didn't say that. What i meant was that i liked the plot better then 
> the plot of the first game... It gave me loads of inspirations for my 
> next sessions.

I stand corrected then!  But, I think that I liked the plot of game 
#1 better, although both were good ideas.

> -> The plot was cool, and the interface was better designed, but I got 
> -> so board going to the same planet all the time.

> The game was much easier to Navigate that way, but yes, i also felt 
> that seeing the same starport on every planet was getting tedious 
> after a while!

A mix of the two, taking the best features of each game, would have 
been an dynamite combination.

> -> I mean, each planet looked the same.  Every once in a while, they 
> -> would move a building or something, but that was so damn boring.

> Somehow, i learned to ignore all that, and concentrated only on the 
> plot, which was what kept me going.

I see.  That was hard for me to do.  I felt like I was working the 
same problem on the same screen each time.  I was really disappointed 
in that part of the game.

> But back to my question: Does really nobody have an idea on what was 
> planned for the third game?

I actually stumbled upon these games in the "old" section of a 
computer game store about five years ago.  I think I bought the 
first one for $15, and the second for only $5!

I consider myself lucky to have found these.  I didn't even know 
Traveller had computer games, and until your post, I didn't know that 
a third one was planned.

I'd like to see IG  come  up with a good Traveller computer game.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 20:36:05 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Ship economics

Douglas <douglas@*teleport.com> writes:
>I've always assumed that total cost of ownership is included in that
>price.  Filters (gas and fluid), consumables (toilet paper, cleaning
>supplies, lubricants, etc) for the ship, miscellaneous spare parts (shower
>nozzle, toilet seat, computer i/o device, etc), not to mention the
>hundreds of parts that are needed on a regular basis for shipboard life.

But since the cost is directly linked to the number of people carried on 
the ship, only those items that are used up because you have an extra 
person aboard are covered. Now, one credit is worth approximately 1.5 to
2 US$. Do you really think that it's reasonable that a person consumes
about 3-4000 US$ worth of consumables in one 10-day trip?
 
>It's not perfect, but it beats having to design a system, then maintain it
>to simulate these costs.

Different mileage, I suppose. I find it irritating not knowing what the
money pays for. As far as I can see most of it is burnt as a sacrificed 
to the Gods of Space Travel to ensure a safe passage.

>>>JUMP FUEL
> 
>[snip]
> 
>Yes, there is a great deal of profit to be made, but look at the costs and
>the risks.  H2, is very explosive when mixed with O2.  Handling it
>requires training and could easily be construed as a high risk occupation
>(read that as 'high paying').  

So don't mix it with 02. Besides, you can't get around the fact that if
refined fuel costs much more than Cr250 per ton, then it becomes more
economic even for a small ship to install a fuel purifier plant and buy
unrefined fuel.
 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 20:42:37 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Ship economics -- fuel consumption

Kenneth Bearden writes:
>>No, the fuel for the jump will be less on the 1-parsec jump. Jump
>>governors has been part of the Traveller background since _High Guard_
>>and are so cheap that they have been standard since then (and so cheap
>>that the cost is ignored). A jump-2 ship jumping 1 parsec would normally
>>only use fuel enough for a jump-1.
> 
>Wasn't the official rule that the amount of fuel it takes to initiate 
>a jump the same--no matter what actual jump a ship was making?
It was... in Book 2. Then they introduced jump governors.

>I seem to remember an old Digest article that talked about this.  I 
>think the point in the ariticle was that, no matter the actual jump 
>attempted, the same procedure of ripping a hole into jumpspace, 
>creating a jump field bubble, and closing the hole took the same 
>amount of energy.

Well, if you rip a hole into Jump-2 Space and jumps 5 meters then you pay
for a jump-2. But if you rip a hole into Jump-1 Space and jump the same 5
meters then you only pay for a jump-1. A jump governor allows a jump-2
engine to rip holes into both Jump-1 and Jump-2 Space.

>In the same article (I think), this was the reasoning behind 
>microjump taking the same amount of fuel as a regular jump did.

Yes, because there is no jumpspace lower than Jump-1 Space.
 
>I guess I should go look up this stuff before I get in over my 
>head, but I'm pretty sure that fuel consumption is the same (unless 
>you are using home grown rules) no matter the distance travelled.

Well, I can't say for sure what Megatraveller and TNE says on the subject.
I just had a quick look through T4 and couldn't find anything either way
on the subject.
 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1303
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Sunday, May 11 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1304



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Traveller Language Tables Online
Re: QSDS and SSDS (was Re: Meson Guns - The last post?)
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1301
Re: Trains Planes and Jump Drive
THUDDD rules clarification
Re: TAS Question
Metator Upgrade
Re: [T97#1297] TravLang and Vilani
Re: TAS Question
Re: Position on worlds?
Re: Anyone going to BayCon?
Re: TAS Question
Communications and RF hazards
Future History Revisionism
Re: Ship economics -- fuel consumption
Re: TAS Question
The Fifth Element
Re: Geonee Post: The Llyrnians
Re: The Army vs. The Marines
A few comments on Milieu 0
Re: The Fifth Element

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 10 May 1997 18:57:06 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Traveller Language Tables Online

I have uploaded a collection of Traveller language tables to
<http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/Traveller/languages.html>

Some of these are the traditional Traveller languages, such as Vilani, some
are based on samples of Traveller languages from published sources, and some
are based on statistical analysis of existing Terran languages.

Enjoy.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 10:53:21 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: QSDS and SSDS (was Re: Meson Guns - The last post?)

> Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 08:47:13 -0600 (MDT)
> From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
> Subject: Re: QSDS and SSDS (was Re: Meson Guns - The last post?)
> 
> Peter Newman noted that fuel requirements changed, but he didn't
> include all the reaction mass that TNE ships require.  So the total
> fuel loadout is pretty similar when you throw in 50-100 gturns worth
> of HEPlaR fuel.

_No_ it's not & not all ships have 50-100 g turns of fuel anyway.

Consider the following  FF&S design

The Emperor's Amusement  TL 15/16 (sensors & computers at Tl 16 the rest
at TL15)

This ship was constructed in 1083 at Capitol/Core and is an Imperial
Household vessel and the prototype for a new class of rift patrol
vehicles.  It is based on a standard patrol cruiser hull & is almost
identical externally (3 turrets not 4). (Details of Mass, MW required,
MCr cost, SA required & (in some cases) Volume are excluded due to my
laziness but they are all correct in the original design).  Its mission
design was to cross the great rift the hard way or patol within the
rift. 

Fuel related design details

Hull 400 ton (5600 m^3) 

Jump 6 drive			vol 392

Jump 6 Fuel			vol 1960
Power Plant Fuel		vol 14
HEPlaR Fuel (32 g burns)	vol 600
1 g burn = 18.75m^3
Collapsible Fuel bladder	vol 655.34
tankage	( for 1 jump 2 (+2m^3) or 34.95 additional g burns)

Fixed Fuel Tank Total vol = 2336 (42.25% of ships vol)
total w/ collapsible fuel bladder = 2991.34 (53.42% of ships vol)

This FFS design uses less fuel for 1 jump 6 + 1 jump 2 & some g burns &
power plant fuel (or even a jump6 + jump 3 if you dont use very many g
burns) than a CT of T4 ship does just for 1 jump 6 with no other fuel.
This ship design was expressly made for the rift & you _cannot_ make a
CT or T4 design that can do this !

full design

Hull 400 ton (5600 m^3)  66m Needle AF Bonded SD AV=42
J6 drive
fuel 1 jump6
TL 16 holodynamic linked controls
3 x 16Fb computer
flight avionics TL 10
TF avionics
300k km RadioComm-15
1000 AU MaserComm-15
180k km PEMS-16 processor (w/ 90m folding array)
300k km AEMS-16
0.5km NAS-16
Densitometer-16
Neutrino-14
ECCM EMM-16
300k km MFD-15 (-6 Diff Md)
Beam pointer-16 300k km
3 turret sockets
3 x TL 15 150Mj Lasers
fuel scoops 5%
laboratory
Power Plant 831 MW Fusion-15
PP fuel
CG lifters (HE-12)
4 airlocks
extd 1ifesupport (for 3040 m^3 ie no life support for fuel tankage)
HEPlaR 3G for 400DT
HEPlaR fuel 32 g burns
g comps
hanger minimal for 10DT APC (carried an Astrin prototype)
2 spacious hangers for 0.4 kl Gravbikes
10 ton launch port
gravbike launchport
fuel purification plant
bridge has 5 bridge workstations
engine room has 4 workstations
6 large staterooms
6 small staterooms
655.34 m^3 collapsible fuel tank
sickbay
Cargo 6 DT + 2.542m^3 (50 DT + 9.112 m^3 w/ collapsible tankage
collapsed)
luxurious fittings

Mass 2795.097 (with mass this low the 3g designed HEPlaR will actually
give 4 G's thrust)
Cost MCr 288.855480

this ship was designed under TNE rules & was easily converted into a
very similar MT design (which cost 110 MCr more but was very
functionally similar)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 20:47:37 +0100 (BST)
From: "mark.wilkin" <aa4mwi@zen.sunderland.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1301

> 
> Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 14:25:39 +0000
> From: suzd@goodnet.com
> Subject: Traveller Chat
> 
> Greetings!
> 
> Thursday, May 15, 1997, we will be discussing Playability vs. 
> Realism. Where do you draw the line?
> 
> Time: 10:00pm Easter, 9:00pm Central, 8:00pm Mountain, 7:00pm Pacific
> Place: IG's IRC server, www.imperiumgames.com, ports 6665 and 6666
> 
> We had only a small crowd last night, so you'll see this plug again 
> later this week as I try to drum up attendees :-)
> 
> As long as we're on the subject of dwindling attendance, I need help 
> coming up with ideas and volunteers for speakers each week.  If I 
> can't rebuild the support, Traveller chat will go the way of the 
> dodo and I'll have to go back to hoping someone wanders by to talk to me :-)
Suz why not adverise on usenet, try the rec.games.rpg.misc group I'm sure 
people on there would love to know about traveller chat.

mark wilkin

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 13:52:31 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Trains Planes and Jump Drive

09 May 1997 22:01:27 GMT, Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)

>> In the Traveller universe, they have
>>presented the magacorps as running high jump, high profits lines with
>>tramp freighters trying to eek out a living with low jump ships.
>>However, the economics in the rules work the other way around.

>Only if you assume that the trade rules are written for the megacorps.  I've
>always assumed that the reason high-jump routes weren't profitable for tramp
>traders is that the megacorps had sewn up all the lucrative cargos, leaving
>very little for the tramps.

The rule a fairly clear on large megacorps as _shipping_ concerns and
the economics rules present speculative trade as an addition is
shipping.  You could rewrite the trade rules so that trading
is the primary aspect of a ship owner (change broker skill
to primarily finding cargos to _buy_ rather than _ship_, put
the up front money for speculation in with the down payment
for the ship as the startup money, etc.)  But then you would
problably drop out the fixed charge for cargo anyone since,
if shipping was a minor aspect of trade, then nobody would
bother to regulate it.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 14:25:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: THUDDD rules clarification

Just to clarify my policy on THUDDD entries:  I only accept THUDDD entries
mailed directly to me.  It's too difficult and confusing to snip them out
of the Digest, or figure out which of multiply-posted versions is the
'real' one.  Just cc'ing me on a post to TML or ISBA is fine.  Thanks for
your time...we now return you to your regularly scheduled mailing lists.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 15:37:27 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: TAS Question

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> 
> Thank you, thank you, thank you.

No problem!

> As a general rule, what do you use as the population cut of point--or
> do you just wing it on a case by case basis?

My general rule is that a population factor of at least 5 must be
present but I do make exceptions for certain cases. Low pop/high TL
worlds and high pop/low TL worlds are exceptions. The former may have
a TAS facility while the latter may not, depending on the reasons
for the UWP being so bizarre.
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: 10 May 1997 22:45:28 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Metator Upgrade

I've just uploaded the latest version of Metator to
<http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/Traveller/software.html>

I received an 'possible error' message while uploading, and was then cut off,
so it may not be downloadable.  If not, please email me so I can correct the
problem.

Changes in this version:

1) Preferences file now works, so settings are remembered from one session to
the next.

2) Hooks for different cultures added (in Preferences dialog) but not yet
implemented.  I'll probably do Hivers next, or the Two Thousand Worlds, but
if you have any urgent requests...

3) One scrolling bug fixed.  Two more to go (that I know of).

4) Languages modified to include a 'word length' table.  This is non-canon,
but you non-heretics can always stick with the old-fashioned 1-6 syllable
words (which is the default anyway).  I've already typed in data for all the
languages I could find (or have made up).

5) Animals can now be named automatically when the animal encounter table is
generated.  


Keep the bug reports, wish lists, and money flowing :-)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 May 97 19:03:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T97#1297] TravLang and Vilani

Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org> asks...

T::>What's this about "Trav Lang" and the Vilani language?

T::>Where is it, what is it, how do I hook up with it?

 Where:  Cyberspace, just like a lot of other Traveller
         resources.

 What:   A mailing list wherein the languages of the major
         races/societies of Traveller will eventually be
         developed (why should Klingonists have all the fun?)

 How:    Send a message to maiser@earth.execnet.com with a body
         line of "subscribe travlang" (no quotes).  If you like
         digests better than individual messages, also add a
         line "set travlang digest" (again, no quotes).

 ::>I realy would like to know what those funny little Vilani words mean, and
 ::>more importantly, how to pronounce them!

 That's what we're working on!  Right now, we're in a bit of a
 lull; catching our breath, so to speak.  In a few days, I'll
 be posting a summary of what has been done so far, and trying
 to goose the list a bit.

T::>(Perosnaly i think Vilani is opposite Welsh, they use TOO MANY vowels! <G>)

 Not hardly - only one per syllable, and there are only seven in
 the whole language.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  This tagline is stolen by the letter "T".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 18:41:51 +0000
From: twolf@unix.tfs.net
Subject: Re: TAS Question

> I just figured that the TAS wouldn't bother putting up facilities on
> a class A starport with, say, five people on the world.

Why not, somebody was stupid enough to put a class A starport on the 
world with five people.

JD
Twolf 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 00:13:38 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Position on worlds?

At 05:17 AM 5/9/97 +0000, Craig Berry wrote:
>> <snip>
>> Finally, I come up with something useful! Besides a stick to stir the
>> fighter hornet's nest.
>
>Sorry, Garry, back to hornet-stirring duty for you.  Your proposed
>definition of zero longitude fails because the substellar point at
>peri/apastron *changes* (radically) from year to year, unless the
>planet's year is an even multiple of the rotation period -- which, for
>practical purposes, only happens in tidal-lock cases.
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
> --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
>   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
>       "Every man and every woman is a star."
>
>

Sh*t.

My pet theory on Jump also probably has holes in it as well.

Garry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 18:05:37 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Anyone going to BayCon?

>>May 23-27, at the Doubletree near the San Jose airport.
>
>Oookay, so: for those of us who are local, is it worth going to?  How big a
>Con is this, and is it just another a GameCon?  (Not that I'm against that
>or anything, I just need to set my expectations and scruples accordingly. :)

BayCon is a major regional SF con (not a game con) held every year in San
Jose.  It attracts about 2000 people, and some very interesting guests.
This year's Writer Guest of Honor is Jack L. Chalker (Midnight at the Well
of Souls), the Artist Guest of Honor is Bob Eggleton (Dark Horse comics,
some Analog and Asimov's covers.) also appearing are David Brin, Marion
Zimmer Bradley, Frank Kelly Freas, and many others...

BayCon features a strong science track, with panels both on real and
speculative science and engineering.  They are boasting that the panelists
include "two astrophysicists, an encryption R&D engineer, a technician from
a local coroner's office, and an Investigator from the FAA."

The traditional Con activities, filking, masquerade, dealers' room, Regency
dancing, room parties, and art show will all be happening.  One unique
event happens Saturday and Sunday night, with the Dive-In Movie (not a
typo)  Old and very bad SF is projected on one wall of the hotel, above the
swimming pool.  Fans watch from the pool, aka the 0-g simulation enviroment
viewing platform.  

Registration is $50 through May 15th for all four days.  $60 thereafter.
One day memberships are available at the con for $15-$20 depending on the day.

You can contact BayCon at:

info@baycon.org

or

BayCon '97
P.O. Box 610427
San Jose, Ca.  95161-0427

I'll be there all four days, so if people want to meet for dinner or
somesuch, we can arrange something.  This really a great con, I encourage
people to attend.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|   about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|   Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|     -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin" |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 18:49:59 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: TAS Question

> Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 12:27:36 +0000
> From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>

[snip]

> Even though the book says the TAS hotels are located at "all class A
> and B starports in human space", I like your idea of limiting it by
> population.
> 
> As a general rule, what do you use as the population cut of point--or
> do you just wing it on a case by case basis?

I think that the answer to this question will be different in Milieu 0
but in Milieu 1100 I usually use the rule that TAS will _always_ be
found at class A starports, will be at all class B starports not on low
pop planets, and will usually be found at class C starports on high pop
worlds &  very rarely at other class C starports.  

Another factor you may want to consider is TAS facilities on Amber zoned
planets.  I assume that an Amber zone will not deter TAS from providing
a facility there because the members will need it more & that (arguably)
amber zones are often "interesting" & are thus more likely to attract
TAS members. If you think that TAS is somewhat more risk averse you
might say that TAS facilities are less likely to be found or even cannot
be found on amber zoned worlds.  If you are a real cynic about _who_
decides to amber zone a world you could assume that if & when TAS is
kicked off a planet they promptly go to their good friends in the
Imperial government & get the planet amber zoned. (Unspoken premise
"Anyone who would kick _us_ out must be barbarians").

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 00:19:21 -0500
From: The Stump Family <stumps@earthlink.net>
Subject: Communications and RF hazards

An earlier posting questioned the dangers of high-powered communications
equipment. Without being too specific, in the military I worked with
medium-powered (200+ watts range) radio transmitters that broadcast
primarily in frequencies that pass easily through the ionosphere. The
minimum official 'safe distance' was 15 meters from the antenna (we
occasionally used the whip antenna to cook hotdogs - hot in 20-30
seconds, on fire in 2 minutes). Radios in that power range could
broadcast to great distances - probably to Mars with proper reception
equipment (and during close approach). They would also cook anyone using
them at walkie-talkie/backpack size.
 Unfortunately, atmospheres 'eat up' a lot of RF power in most
traditional radio freq. bands (the thicker, the worse. High humidity
equals less power-to-receiver). Therefore portable radios for
communicating with orbiting ships will need a fair amount of power to be
useful on a wide variety of worlds (especially with exotic atmospheres,
high-density, etc.). In a recent game on a planet with a thick, damp
atmosphere with a lot of 'ground-clutter' my players (more
radioheads)actually set up a base radio to communicate with a distant
ship and carried lower powered backpack radios - the base station
relayed to the ship.
 In space, though, it may be easier. With little to no solar activity in
a system with an F, G, or K star you could probably communicate over
most of the system with 5-10 WATTS! ANY solar activity, though, and you
will suddenly need a tremendous amout of power to even try to
communicate. A few years ago most communications in North America were
knocked out for up to 2 hours by a relatively average solar flare - and
we had an ionosphere to protect us!

- --Rick Stump stumps@earthlink.net--

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 21:48:26 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: Future History Revisionism

>As much as I like FF&S in concept, it is still playing fast and loose
>with previous Traveller "canon" and is really fucking up the way
>that things are supposed to work. Or, it's fucking up the way things
>_used_ to work. Traveller _used_ to be really good for internal
>consistency. I really hope that all you people doing development for IG
>currently who read this list either start trying a bit harder to keep
>things consistent or stop calling the game "Traveller" because it isn't.

Don't hold your breath waiting for this to happen. I tried to explain away
the TL 14 vacc suits in CSC as artifacts from a contemporary TL 14 system.
Then Emperor's Arsenal states TL 15 is "maximum known Second Imperium
technology".  I don't even bother trying to rationalize this stuff anymore.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 03:26:34 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Ship economics -- fuel consumption

> Well, I can't say for sure what Megatraveller and TNE says on the subject.
> I just had a quick look through T4 and couldn't find anything either way
> on the subject.

Jump govenors are mentioned in the SOM, but no mention is made that 
these help regulate fuel use.

Where did you get the formula for fuel use on a ship that jumps lower 
than it's jump number (i.e. a jump-2 ship that only jumps one 
parsec)?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 03:26:33 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: TAS Question

> I think that the answer to this question will be different in Milieu 0
> but in Milieu 1100 I usually use the rule that TAS will _always_ be
> found at class A starports, will be at all class B starports not on low
> pop planets, and will usually be found at class C starports on high pop
> worlds &  very rarely at other class C starports.  
> 
> Another factor you may want to consider is ...(good info snipped).

All very good ideas.  Thanks Peter.  My creative side is starting off 
in that direction now.  I'm sure I'll put together something by next 
Sunday, which is our next scheduled game day.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 03:26:31 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: The Fifth Element

I saw the Fifth Element tonight, and I thought I'd post a quickie 
review.

Don't worry.  I won't give anything away.

The special effects in the movie were very good.  There were some 
funny moments.  Don't go into this film thinking that it is going to 
be as great as Aliens was, but if you are in the right mood, it is 
definitely worth watching.

I'd give it a 3 out of 5 stars, but I'm pretty hard on movies and it 
takes quite a spectacular film for me to rate it high.

Bruce did a good job as the main character, but you are just going to 
fall in love with the female lead--Sombody (Millie?) Jonovich.  She 
is just incredible.  Oscar performance--no kidding.  All the nuances, 
all the life, all the strength, all the fragileness portrayed by this 
actress will just capture you.

There's a lot of technology in the film, and some of it can be 
applied to Traveller.  I found a lot of it to be too high tech, 
though (they cloned a person from just a piece of a hand in about 5 
minutes--the shake and bake method for regeneration!).

The guns look pretty cool, but they have a WarHammer 40K feel to 
them.

The aliens are pretty cool, and what they can do with CG these days 
is just incredible.

And, there was good acting throughout the film--much more than you 
would expect in a film like this.  There's this one scene with a cop, 
and it's very short.  The cop, though, is played in such a way that 
you really get a feel for this blue-collar bloke just doing his job.  
Too many times in movies like this, cops are there just to give the 
main character something to shoot at--kinda like the Storm Troopers 
in Star Wars (faceless, no personality, no feeling that this is a 
real person).  Many of the bit parts in this movie, though, are done 
in such a way that you believe that these are real people.

The directing ranged from "just incredible" to "why did he do it that 
way."  Luc Besson directed the film.  He's the guy who did La Femme 
Nikta, Point of No Return, and the The Professional.  I really liked 
The Professional, but this film had some moments too.

One of the great parts is when this alien opera diva is singing.  
This scene could have been done a million different ways, but Besson 
really brought out the beauty in it.  It wasn't like the band scene 
in Return of the Jedi.  In this film, eventhough it was an alien 
singing, you really feel like you are experienceing a true, beautiful 
work of art as this creature sings.  This is intercut with a combat 
scene so that we continue to hear the diva's incredible song while we 
watch parts of a melee fight.  It is a great sequence.

On the other hand, Besson chooses to use this intercut technique in 
another part of the film, intercuting several concurrent scence that 
really have no bearing on the film and do not move the story forward, 
and this is just not done that well.  When you get through seeing it, 
you wonder to yourself, "Why did I just watch that?  What does it 
have to do with the plot?"

The story is somewhat convoluted.  I like the apocolyptic theme that 
runs throughout, but it does not live up to its fullest potential.  
Several things in the movie happen that (a) really don't need to be 
in the film, or (b) are not fully explained by the time the film 
ends.

I left the film thinking that this could have been an incredible 
movie--if just by some of the performances alone.  But, boil it all 
down, and you get a servicable Sci Fi flick.

If you are in the mood for a movie like this (it's kind of a Stargate 
meets Judge Dredd), then you might want to go see it, and you'll 
probably be glad you did.

If you go in expecting an incredible work of SciFi art, you are going 
to be dissappointed because this film is definitely more like 
Independence Day rather than Aliens.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 22:57:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Geonee Post: The Llyrnians

In mail you write:

> Does anybody on TML know how lava tubes form?  I know there's
> suspicion that we might find such on the Moon, which implies that
> they can form in a vacuum.  I also seem to remember that large
> hollows can be formed when a magma reservoir "drains away" from
> beneath a volcano.

There's no mystery about how lava tubes form. A fast flowing stream of
forms a crust on the outside, and that's the beginning of the wall of
the tube. When the eruption stops or at least the flow to that stream
stops, the remaining lava keeps flowing, leaving behind the hardened
tube. Add the occasional flow on top of the tube(s) and you have a
reasonably stable tube system.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 May 97 16:00 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: The Army vs. The Marines

In-Reply-To: <199704272344.QAA21104@mom.hooked.net>

<< The Army is the heavy guns.. the guys who go in and occupy the enemy cities
and inform them that the rules have *changed*.  It has to be done by ground
troops.. they have to see it happen. >>

I would say it's the Navy/Marines that are the heavy guns. However, they're 
expensive, relatively small, and don't have much staying power. The Army 
probably doesn't have the same devastating firepower, and it's slower to 
react, but it has the numbers required to occupy a world and/or absorb heavy 
casualties.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 10:47:24 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Subject: A few comments on Milieu 0

I just got Milieu 0 ("M:0"), and I'm generally very pleased with it, 
as far as I've read.  Chapter 1, Antecedents of the Third Imperium, 
with its constant theme of honorable vs. dishonorable, is classic 
propaganda after the style of Digest Group Publications.  Chapter 2, 
the Expansion Process, is delightfully cynical.  (E.g.: "The denuding 
of the wealth of a nation called for in the early stages should serve 
to undermine the world's own currency by removing anything of physical 
value from backing it." p.19.)  

The Warrant of Restoration, set forth at pp. 83-84, has an enormous 
loophole in Article 1:  

"Any world may, through a recognized representative, proclaim 
allegiance to the Immperium, and in so doing, such world shall 
become a member in the Imperium, equal in status to all other 
members of the Imperium."  

Thus a non-member world has the power to become a member of the 
Imperium just be deciding to do so -- no approval by the rest of 
the Imperium, no proclamation by the Emperor, no advice and consent 
of the Moot, no standards (except Calendar Compliance).  

Article VIII doesn't help.  It just says, 

"Nothwithstanding any provisions to the contrary contained in 
this document or in subsequent Imperial actions, the Imperium, 
for the purpose of ensuring its continued safety and stability, 
reserves to itself the power to unilaterally enact changes in any 
or all aspects of the relationship between itself and any member 
world or citizen."

Article VIII only applies to relationships between the Imperium 
and worlds that are already members -- thus it does not provide 
for rejection of a world's application for membership.  It does 
allow the Imperium to kick a member world out, so an unwanted world 
could be booted after its admission.  There may be unwanted political 
fallout from doing so, of course, that would not be present if the 
world were simply not admitted.

Where might this problem arise?  (1) A world far from the Imperial 
sphere of influence could hear about the Imperium, join it, and then 
seek protection from its non-Imperial neighbors.  The Imperium could 
thus be drawn into a distant and unwanted war.  (Actually, that's not 
a bad adventure hook.)

(2) A group of highly developed worlds might decide to join the Imperium 
en masse.  Exploitation of these worlds, after the fashion of the Zhunastu 
School, would not be possible; indeed, their ability to exploit their 
neighbors would be enhanced.  It would be better if they could be rejected
for membership and then surrounded by the Imperium over time.  Then 
their economies could be destroyed by cutting off trade, and rebuilt as
dependent on the Imperium.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 11:52:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Trent Smith <tfsmith@POMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Fifth Element

  Since someone else brought it up...

On Sun, 11 May 1997, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> I'd give it a 3 out of 5 stars, but I'm pretty hard on movies and it 
> takes quite a spectacular film for me to rate it high.

   I try not to think of movies in terms of "stars", but if I were to
assign such a value to this, I'd also give it about a 3.  I saw it with
four other people, two of whom really loved it and wanted t stay and watch
it again, and the other two were indifferent at best-- one described it as
"Captain EO meets Hudson Hawk" which, while certainly harsh, does have an
element of truth.

> 
> Bruce did a good job as the main character, but you are just going to 
> fall in love with the female lead--Sombody (Millie?) Jonovich.  She 
> is just incredible.  Oscar performance--no kidding.  All the nuances, 
> all the life, all the strength, all the fragileness portrayed by this 
> actress will just capture you.

Name's Milla Jovovich.  She's a model who's been in a few other
unimpressive movies ("Return to the Blue Lagoon" among others), I think
she had a music album a couple years ago, and she's romantically linked
with the director.  I agree that she gave a great performance, however the
portions of the movie which focused upn her were my least favorite.

> The directing ranged from "just incredible" to "why did he do it that 
> way."  Luc Besson directed the film.  He's the guy who did La Femme 
> Nikta, Point of No Return, and the The Professional.  I really liked 
> The Professional, but this film had some moments too.

     For what it's worth, Besson didn't direct "Point of No Return," that
was just an American remake of his film "La Femme Nikita."  I'm on a
one-man crusade against "The Professional" which a lot of people seem to
like even though I thought it was a morally bankrupt pedophilic piece of
trash, but I suppose it was at least well-directed.  Besson also wrote the
screenplay for this, and I heard he came up with it when he was 14 years
old.  To me, that explained a lot-- the simplistic "moral," the flashy
action, the jokes in questionable taste, etc.  For better or worse, this
movie definitely felt like the product of an adolescent male mind.
 
> One of the great parts is when this alien opera diva is singing.  
> This scene could have been done a million different ways, but Besson 
> really brought out the beauty in it.  It wasn't like the band scene 
> in Return of the Jedi.  In this film, eventhough it was an alien 
> singing, you really feel like you are experienceing a true, beautiful 
> work of art as this creature sings.  This is intercut with a combat 
> scene so that we continue to hear the diva's incredible song while we 
> watch parts of a melee fight.  It is a great sequence.

I agree.  This was one of the best sequences in the film.

> The story is somewhat convoluted.  I like the apocolyptic theme that 
> runs throughout, but it does not live up to its fullest potential.  
> Several things in the movie happen that (a) really don't need to be 
> in the film, or (b) are not fully explained by the time the film 
> ends.

   The story as such I found to be pretty weak.  However, I really enjoyed
a lot of the somewhat-goofy complications which occurred, especially in
the middle-third of the movie-- the entire "subplot" involving the
Paradise world.  It had a definite comic-book feel to it that was a lot of
fun.  Certainly not a cinematic masterpiece, or in any way "serious"
science fiction, but still very entertaining if you're in the right mood.
One more proviso: I would reccomend seeing this movie on the biggest
screen with the best sound system available, and sitting pretty close to
the front.  There are a lot of great visuals in this movie that won't seem
nearly as impressive if seen on a dinky little screen (or, God forbid, a
tv).

Trent Smith

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1304
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Sunday, May 11 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1305



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Toronto TML Thing
Random thought that might affect commerce rules...
Can HEPLAR fuel be used for jump fuel (and vice versa)?
Re: The Fifth Element
RE: Ship Economics - Making a buck!
RE: Trains Planes and Jump Drive
Re: 1g Gravity
Re: TL _17_ robot world
RE: 1g Gravity
Re: Future History Revisionism
RE: Ship Economics - Making a buck!
Re: Travlang and Vilani
Re: Travlang and Vilani
Jump vs Gate/Wormhole Tech.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 15:23:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kenneth Winland <kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: Toronto TML Thing

	Howdy!


On Fri, 9 May 1997, Ethan Henry wrote:

> > Well, y'know there's a cool SF convention in Toronto...
> > 
> >         Ad Astra 17
> >         June 13-15, 1997
> >         Days Inn, Toronto Airport
> > 

	Ad Astra is pretty weedy and very small.  The gaming there is
almost non-existent.  The dealer's room is pretty feeble as well.  Of
course, you are only talking about an attendance of 300-400, tops.  Not
too bad for parties, but it is more of a lit SF con.

	It was good in '95, but that was more of an exception than a rule
(I have been going since '92).

	Toronto Trek is *much* better.  It has about 3,000-4,000 people, a
huge dealer's room,  and lots of media and lit. SF events.  It supports
Bab5, as well as other SF stuff (don't let the con name fool you).  There
is also a good deal of gaming, too (both RP and minis).  Mostly WOD and
Trav for RPing, and Heavy Gear, Jovian Chronicles, Dirtside II, and Space
Hulk for mini events.


	Laterish!

	Ken

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 May 97 16:51:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Random thought that might affect commerce rules...

  One thing that seems to be overlooked to a great extent in
  most of the commerce rules that I've seen is _traffic_.
  Traffic is what defines trade _patterns_ (not specific
  products) and therefore likely _routes_, especially for the
  larger corps (it's called maximizing ROI).  These are just my
  thoughts on "building" traffic patterns.

  There are five types of destination, based on traffic.  The
  types and descriptions are as follows:

  PRIME destinations.  These are destinations which command the
            highest amount of traffic, regardless of starport
            class (except X).  Generally, they will have A or B
            ports, but not necessarily, and they will _always_
            have something that will naturally attract people,
            and generally will have more than one such thing.

            SECTOR CAPITALS and SUBSECTOR CAPITALS are always
            prime destinations; HOMEWORLDS for a MINOR RACE
            (human or otherwise) that is well-known and
            well-respected throughout the Imperium will also be
            prime destinations.  IMPERIAL NAVAL DEPOT systems
            will be prime destinations _if_ they are also worlds
            that are close to the Terra/Vland/Sylea (TVS) norms.
            The CENTRAL WORLD OF A CLUSTER will be a prime
            destination if (a) the cluster can be reached using
            jump-2 from a main, AND (b) the world is close to
            the TVS norms.  ANCIENT SITES will be a prime
            destination if the world is close to the TVS norm.

  HIGH destinations.  These are destinations which command a
            high amount of traffic, but not necessarily the
            highest.  Generally, these will have ports no lower
            than C.  There will be always be something that will
            naturally attract people; it is rare for more than
            one such thing to exist.

            ANCIENT SITES and IMPERIAL NAVAL DEPOTS that are not
            prime destinations will be high destinations.  MINOR
            RACE HOMEWORLDS with sector-wide renown and respect
            will be high destinations.  CENTRAL WORLDS OF
            CLUSTERS will be high destinations if they are not
            prime destinations.  Worlds WITHIN JUMP-3 OF A PRIME
            destination that also approach TVS norms are high
            destinations.

  MEDIUM destinations.  These worlds command a respectable
            amount of traffic.  They are preferred "hubs" for
            subsidized merchants and liners (high and prime
            would be even better, if the trade there wasn't
            pretty much snatched up by big corps).  They will
            always have D or better starports, and C or better
            is not an unreasonable expectation.

            TVS NORM worlds are always at least medium
            destinations, unless they are closed (interdicted)
            for some reason.  MINOR RACE HOMEWORLDS that are not
            high or prime destinations will be medium
            destinations.  CLUSTER WORLDS WITHIN JUMP-3 OF THE
            CENTRAL WORLD are medium destinations if they are
            not high or prime. NAVAL BASES, XBOAT STATIONS or
            SCOUT BASES OR WAY STATIONS on worlds that are not
            of higher status will be medium destinations.
            CLUSTER WORLDS THAT ARE ON THE ROUTE FROM A MAIN TO
            THE CENTRAL WORLD OF THE CLUSTER are medium
            destinations if they are not of higher status.

  LOW destinations.  These worlds command little traffic, and
            boast of little of interest to outsiders.

            All non-interdicted worlds with population that do
            not qualify for medium or better status are low
            destinations.

  CLOSED destinations.  These worlds command no traffic.  They
            are either totally barren, or interdicted.

  SPECIAL NOTE: If a world is a "choke point" between worlds
  of otherwise higher status, it is automatically of the same
  status as the lowest of the worlds.


  If using these descriptions as guidelines for sector
  generation, I would recommend assuming that your "normal"
  trade route generation routine assumes that all worlds are
  medium destinations.  For each level above medium that a world
  is, a favorable DM of 1 should be applied to the probability
  that a route will exist; for low, an unfavorable DM of 1
  should be applied; there should be no routes to a closed
  destination.

  Also, if using these guidelines to determine what kind of
  destination you have, I would use something like the following
  table - assume the default for a world is _low_ if there is
  nothing that automatically warrants a higher status:

  Characteristic          Amount
  --------------          ------
  TVS Norm                +0.5
  Naval station           +0.25
  Scout base/way sta.     +0.25
  Artificial habitats     -0.5
        required
  Minor Race Homeworld    +0.5
  J-3 from cluster hub    +0.25
  Connect main and hub    +0.25

  Accumulate all DMs first, then round unfavorably.  Set the
  world to its automatic minimum level based on the descriptions
  above.  Then, ignoring anything that contributes to the
  automatic minimum status, accumulate "scores" from the above
  table, and round down.  If the result is 0 or less, there is
  no change in the type of destination.  If the result is
  1, raise the status by one level (i.e., a low world becomes a
  medium world).  Note that because of automatic status
  settings, it is not possible to have a final score of more
  than 1, i.e., an automatic MEDIUM destination can't be
  upgraded to PRIME.

  Example: A world is a Minor Race homeworld, but the minor race
  is not of any particular renown or importance.  It sports an
  Imperial Naval Station and a Scout base.  It is in a
  relatively isolated cluster (The cluster is not directly
  accessible from the nearest main without at least J-3), and is
  not the hub of the cluster, but it is only J-1 from the hub,
  and on the route to the main. It is not TVS norm, but
  unaltered humans can survive without artificial habitats.

  The Minor Race Homeworld status makes it automatically a
  MEDIUM destination.  We ignore this from the table.  We add
  0.25 for J-3 from cluster hub, 0.25 for the Naval base, 0.25
  for the scout base, and 0.25 for being on the route to the
  main.  There is a total "score" of 1, which moves this world
  from being a MEDIUM destination to being a HIGH destination.

  Had it had a NAVAL DEPOT instead of a NAVAL BASE, it would
  have automatically been a HIGH destination, and the scoring
  above would be changed by deducting 0.25 for the naval base,
  and adding 0.5 for the Minor Race Homeworld.  This would have
  resulted in a "score" of 1.25, rounding down is 1, as before,
  which would make it a prime destination.

  If the world had not been on the route to the main, the score
  would have been 0.75, which, rounded down, is 0, so there
  would have been no change in the status.

  If it had also been a TVS world, the score would have been
  1.5, rounding down is 1, so it would have been HIGH instead of
  MEDIUM.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  And do you know the greatest monster of them all? Guilt.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 14:04:13 -0700
From: JayStr <jaystr@best.com>
Subject: Can HEPLAR fuel be used for jump fuel (and vice versa)?

It has struck me that one advantage of a low-tech (pre-thruster plate)
ship is that it can cannibalize its own jump fuel for longer HEPLAR burn
time; or, conversely, can suck up a bunch of HEPLAR fuel into its jump
tanks to get out of system in a big hurry. Each acts as a reserve for
the other, provided the HEPLAR tank is at least 10% of the ship's total
volume.

Is this canon? How long will it take to transfer fuel from one tank to
the other? or can they both pull fuel from the same big tank? And what
happens if one uses impure fuel in a HEPLAR drive? (I should think it
would merely boost fuel consumption....)

Well?

- -- Jay Stranahan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 May 97 15:58:03 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: The Fifth Element

Kenneth gave a pretty good review, I thought I'd give a bit of my point 
of view.

On 1997-05-10 21:26 thus spake Kenneth Bearden:

>The special effects in the movie were very good.  There were some 
>funny moments.  Don't go into this film thinking that it is going to 
>be as great as Aliens was, but if you are in the right mood, it is 
>definitely worth watching.

I agree. The special effects were spectacular.

>I'd give it a 3 out of 5 stars, but I'm pretty hard on movies and it 
>takes quite a spectacular film for me to rate it high.

I can see that you do rate movies harshly. I'd give it a 4. If I was 
feeling more generous, maaaybe a 4.5.

<snipple of actress stuff which I totally agree with>

>There's a lot of technology in the film, and some of it can be 
>applied to Traveller.  I found a lot of it to be too high tech, 
>though (they cloned a person from just a piece of a hand in about 5 
>minutes--the shake and bake method for regeneration!).

Hee. Actually, I thought the shake and bake thing was the only piece of 
technology too outlandish for most Traveller settings. The rest seemed 
quite reasonable and had imho that Travellerish "big steel/clunky tech" 
feel.

There were even some ancient artifacts... :-)

<snip of other well said stuff I completely agree with>

>On the other hand, Besson chooses to use this intercut technique in 
>another part of the film, intercuting several concurrent scence that 
>really have no bearing on the film and do not move the story forward, 
>and this is just not done that well.  When you get through seeing it, 
>you wonder to yourself, "Why did I just watch that?  What does it 
>have to do with the plot?"

If you're talking about the scene I think you're talking about, I guess 
it was just done as a humourous interlude. I agree that it was 
superfluous, tho'.

>The story is somewhat convoluted.  I like the apocolyptic theme that 
>runs throughout, but it does not live up to its fullest potential.  
>Several things in the movie happen that (a) really don't need to be 
>in the film, or (b) are not fully explained by the time the film 
>ends.

That's true. I think the last third of the movie or so could have used a 
little more editing... 

I mean, the opening scene was just incredible! It was a perfect setup for 
the rest of the movie.

>I left the film thinking that this could have been an incredible 
>movie--if just by some of the performances alone.  But, boil it all 
>down, and you get a servicable Sci Fi flick.

Wellll, I thought it was more than serviceable. Stargate was serviceable. 
This was better than that. If only they'd stay clear of the "put 
something in for the mass-market" syndrome, they'd have had a true great 
sci-fi pic.

>If you are in the mood for a movie like this (it's kind of a Stargate 
>meets Judge Dredd), then you might want to go see it, and you'll 
>probably be glad you did.

Stargate meets Judge Dredd! Thats *good* Kenneth. To qualify that, I 
think this movie was better than both of those movies.

>If you go in expecting an incredible work of SciFi art, you are going 
>to be dissappointed because this film is definitely more like 
>Independence Day rather than Aliens.

I see your point, but I would rate The 5th Element higher than ID4. 
Better performances, better plot, no "USA-rules/Aliens sux" claptrap.

Again, this movie fell into the "make it for the lowest common 
denominator" syndrome, and could have been better. But it still was 
really good.

Also, this movie is first and foremost, an *action* movie. The first 
Alien movie wasn't, it was a thriller/suspense movie. Keeping that in 
mind, I think The Fifth Element was a superior movie in its genre, just 
as Aliens was superior in its genre.

BTW, when you say this movie is no "Aliens" I hope you're just referring 
to the first one. ;-)


===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 10:21:03 +1200
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Ship Economics - Making a buck!

Damn Kenneth was right when he said


>Just like I said in the quote you took from my post, I was comparing
>the cost that a JUMP-2 ship would have if it jumped 2 parsecs vs
>THE SAME SHIP jumping 1 parsec.  The costs are the same--no matter
>how far the ship jumps.

And that was my main point also (although Kenneth has said it much better).
A higher jump ship performing at below maximum jump will not maximise it's 
earnings (under the Per Parsec system) and will seldom be seen making less 
than
it's maximum jump.  Although it can, and probably will - especially in 
speculation.

The main thrust of this point is that most ships will be designed for a 
given set of trading circumstances and so if transportation prices are 
fixed then they should be a least fixed on a per parsec basis rather than a 
per jump basis.  (Just like real world slow mail)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 10:31:07 +1200
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Trains Planes and Jump Drive

Peter Said

>If you have a higher Jump ship you can reach more different planets &
>you can therefore find a planet which will be a _better_ market for the
>cargo you are selling.

While you can reach more planets that is no guarantee you can reach a 
better market.

Also, I feel that ships would be designed more specifically for their 
trading circumstances.  If you are in a sparse area then you will need a 
high jump (and more expensive ship).  If you are one a main then Jump 1 is 
all you need.

If the Imperium has set costs to be on a per jump basis (regardless of 
distance) then worlds in sparse area's will not be serviced by sufficient 
ships and so will fail.  As the Imperium is powered by Economics then it 
must allow traders (of all sizes) to make a reasonable profit and so Higher 
jump ships must be able to charge on a per parsec basis.

Then it becomes a matter of economics to start trading.  Trade on a main 
and your investment is reduced (and so are your returns).  Trade off a main 
and make a profit on your high jump legs and a loss on your low jump legs.

>Assuming that the surrounding region is all of average density (half the
>hexes have systems) ships can statistically expect to be able to reach
>the following number of planets

I feel that while their will be basic designs, these designs will still 
have a set role.  Such as trading on a main for the free trader.  And other 
designs for other circumstances - it is the art of picking the ship for a 
specific area that allows some ship captains to become rich while others 
have to try and skip out.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 10:36:04 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: 1g Gravity

On Fri, 9 May 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> At 06:01 PM 5/9/97 +1000, you wrote:
> >
> >Im curious - how do traveller ships handle gravity, or are they all zero G
> >environments?  Digging way back into my memory, and making a quick
> >calculation, but if a ship travelled at 1G constantly, wouldnt there be a
> >normal Earth Gravity on the vessel?
> 
> Traveller has always assumed that one of the major technological
> breakthroughs will be artificial gravity.
> 
> A starship has two forms of internal AG; the floor plates that provide a
> comfortable living enviroment, and inertial compensators that counteract
> the effects of high-g acceleration and manuevering.
> 
> If you accelerated a ship at a constant 1-g, you would have the sensation
> of normal gravity along the axis of thrust.

Okay - thanks for your response, I guessed what the compensators were for,
I was not sure how they maintained the gravity on a vessel though - thanks
again.

> |  Q. What do you get when you cross a Unitarian  |
> |     with a Jehovah's Witness?                   |
> |  A. Someone who knocks on your door for no      |
> |     reason at all.                              |


hahahahhahaa:)

c'ya hate to be ya,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


if you want a place in the sun,
you have to expect blisters.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 10:38:11 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: TL _17_ robot world

On Fri, 9 May 1997, Chris Griffen wrote:

> Actually Sabmiqys is a tech level 17 world. The robots are all
> anthropomorphic artificially intelligent robots. They only have TL-8
> space flight, so they're not currently a threat to neighboring worlds.

hmmm - who arethese guys? Ancient left overs?

Anymore info?


c'ya hate to be ya,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


if you want a place in the sun,
you have to expect blisters.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 10:42:03 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: RE: 1g Gravity

On Fri, 9 May 1997, Scott Ellsworth wrote:

> Note: Sylean ships will often be designed with 5G drives, as the
> compensators will eat three of them, and grav tanks let you ignore one
> more.  If your players like to suffer, you can put a 6G drive on, which I
> did to them recently when they had a high priority mission across the
> system.  

This raises another issue - how much can the body take for an extended
period of time?  Assumimng PC's are more hardyier then your average
person.

I was under the assumption that a person could still function fairly
normally upto 10G, but would get exhausted quickly, and the human body can
take upto 25G's or so in short spurts.  Could be wrong.

c'ya hate to be ya,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


if you want a place in the sun,
you have to expect blisters.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 09:30:17 -0900
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Future History Revisionism

At 09:48 PM 9/05/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>As much as I like FF&S in concept, it is still playing fast and loose
>>with previous Traveller "canon" and is really fucking up the way
>>that things are supposed to work. Or, it's fucking up the way things
>>_used_ to work. Traveller _used_ to be really good for internal
>>consistency. I really hope that all you people doing development for IG
>>currently who read this list either start trying a bit harder to keep
>>things consistent or stop calling the game "Traveller" because it isn't.

Oh god no... here it comes.. beware, all sensitive types read no further,
opinionated rant follows...

But before I start.. Richard, this is not directed directly at you, and you
are entitled to say what you want, and some of your points I DO agree with.

RANT MODE ON.


Right, I've had enough... all you TMLers out there listen...



THERE IS NO TRAVELLER CANON!!!!

Classic Traveller was simple in concept, technology existed but was not
described (until striker). 
There was no internal consistency, one supplement or module would
contradict another.
Also, in the seventies and early eighties we were quite happy to accept the
thought of anti-grav propulsion and fusion drives without really looking to
closely (waddya mean those drive will turn every atmosphere in the Imperium
into radioactive gas?).

Megatraveller incorporated "striker", poorly at that, but at least you tell
what happened when you shot at ships with hand weapons.
When GDW formalised what the technology was about, a lot of people
complained because it didn't fit in with what they thought (I wonder if
they called it canon back then?). 
Remember COACC, I started ripping out grav thrusters from TL15 starships
and putting in TL9 fusion rockets (which at that stage were not
radioactive), because they used less powerplant power, and I could get
better thrust and agility, and more cargo space. Well, that didn't fit with
canon, did it, big mistake there.

TNE tried to resolve some of the problems of MT, in my opinion FFS tried to
make everything cosistent, and, unfortunately, very bloody complicated. Oh,
and by the way, fusion rockets are radioactive, so that's why we don't use
them, but we've got these psuedo-fusion things called HePlaR, which make a
mess with canon, but make more sense... well sort of.... just don't use
them as weapons.

And now with T4, we get the internal consistency of classic (not) with the
complication of FFS (and a real botchy job besides, lower quality on
average than GDW at it's worst).

OK, I'm sick of hearing what is canon and what isn't. Perhaps we should try
to define what canon is... is it classic? Great, I'll just start designing
my jump torpedoes. Is it Megatrav? Fine, I always liked fusion drives. Is
it TNE, great, I have FFS, and most of the errata, and quite a few
spreadsheets, and a few weeks to spare.

Stop wining about what is and is not canon. There isn't any, not in any of
the traveller game systems. The rules we have now are what canon is now.
When T5 comes out, canon will change again, and again, and again. And the
plave it will be noticed most is in space combat, because that is the most
technologically intensive area in traveller. It has to change... we now
know more.. let it change, rather than sticking to our staw warsian
concepts. (Oh damn, I really love the idea of dogfighting, can't we just
reduce the range of all weapons to accomodate this?)

Rant mode off.


Ah, doctor TML, I feel so much better now, I assume you will charge your
usual fee.


OK, sorry all.


Harry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 17:50:48 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: RE: Ship Economics - Making a buck!

At 10:21 am 05/12/97 +1200, you wrote:
>Damn Kenneth was right when he said
>
>
>>Just like I said in the quote you took from my post, I was comparing
>>the cost that a JUMP-2 ship would have if it jumped 2 parsecs vs
>>THE SAME SHIP jumping 1 parsec.  The costs are the same--no matter
>>how far the ship jumps.
>
>And that was my main point also (although Kenneth has said it much better).
>A higher jump ship performing at below maximum jump will not maximise it's 
>earnings (under the Per Parsec system) and will seldom be seen making less 
>than
>it's maximum jump.  Although it can, and probably will - especially in 
>speculation.
>
>The main thrust of this point is that most ships will be designed for a 
>given set of trading circumstances and so if transportation prices are 
>fixed then they should be a least fixed on a per parsec basis rather than a 
>per jump basis.  (Just like real world slow mail)

	Just like real world slow mail, where it costs me the same per trip rather
than by distance, you mean? (32 cents to send a letter across the street or
across the continent ...)
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 01:25:58 -0400
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Travlang and Vilani

At 12:08 AM 5/9/97 EST, Kenji wrote:
<Snip>
>Try Hawai'ian for vocalic overkill <G>.
>

Hey - be nice!  You're knocking one of the clearest, most easily pronounced
langs there are!  ;^)

- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 18:45:42 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Travlang and Vilani

Bill Rutherford wrote:

>At 12:08 AM 5/9/97 EST, Kenji wrote:
><Snip>
>>Try Hawai'ian for vocalic overkill <G>.
>>
>
>Hey - be nice!  You're knocking one of the clearest, most easily pronounced
>langs there are!  ;^)

Well, yeah!  "Overkill" is only rarely perjorative, in my vocabulary. <G>.

Kenji
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:03:47 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Jump vs Gate/Wormhole Tech.

Hi all,  I have been doing some thinking (and reading) recently (WARNING! 
WARNING! Thinking is dangerous!).  Before I continue, I am NOT a
physicist or even a scientist.  My interest in science is from a purely
socilogical and philosophical point, so they maybe errors in my logic.

Have you ever noticed that most sci-fi falls into two categories when it
comes to Hyperspace.

You have the Traveller/StarTrek/StarWars/Asimov concept of "jumping" or
warping.  No possible technical explaination can be made, we just assume
that in a distant future our descendents will figure out how to get to
other systems without taking to long.

The flip side is the Gate technology which is prevalent in things like
Babylon5 and many sci-fi computer games (Elite comes to mind).  Where
there is a definite point of entry and exit through a Gate which warps
time and space usually by the use of a wormhole of some type. 

So I decided to do some research into the area, to see if any physicist(s)
have ever thought about the problem, and thank goodness they have.

The only way (we know of) that we could *conceivably* travel to lets say
Vega (26ly) or Alpha Centauri (7ly?) is to a) build a ship that goes VERY
fast, maybe even approaches the speed of light which physically travels
through space from point a to poinnt b.  The problem with this is that if
we were to setup colonies let's say on Vega, it would take a round trip of
52ly to get information back and fourth from Vega.  The further the
colonies are away from Earth, the longer it takes for information to get
back, which basically means all the Colonies would be independent and
dependent on themselves, because it would take to long to get help or
supplys to and from any colony.  We do not have the technology as of yet
to build such a ship, but its possible that in the future we could build
such a ship.  This sort of universe is unworkable on a galactic sense, no
Imperium could exists for instance.  This approach is used by Arthur C.
Clarke in books like 3001.

The other approach is the use of Wormholes (sort of the Jump Gate
Technology).  As far as I know, Wormholes have been (mathematically)
proven to exists.  The problem with wormholes is that there tiny and
unstable, and they exist for only momments of life, much shorter then it
would be possible to travel through them.  So, would it be to great a
stretch of the imagination to believe that by th 52nd century Humananity
has gotten to the point where they can locate, and force open these
wormholes practically wherever they wish?

For those who do not know, a wormhole allows you to travel from any point
in the universe to any other point in the universe via a short (a few
kilometer length) tunnel in space.  The tunnel exists in hyperspace.  Its
difficult to explain how it actually works without diagrams, so I wont
try.

The debate about how we would do this is a completely different topic, I
am only interested to see what the minds on the list say about this system 
replacing the current Jump system.  I would really like to hear
from anyone who has done research into Black Holes and the like.

My only beef is that Traveller is such a cool game because, where
possible, its scientifically accurate.  For a universe like Travller to
exist, humans have to be able to travel between systems quickly.  The
current system is workable, but does not agree with our current body of
knowledge on the subject.  Wormholes/Jump Gates seem to be a workable
alternative to the current Jump system.


SaHua,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


Who controls the past,
controls the future;
who controls the present,
controls the past.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1305
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, May 12 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1306



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Contact: Sayat
Problem
Re: Contact: Sayat
Speed of Light.
Re: Can HEPLAR fuel be used for jump fuel (and vice versa)?
Re: Jump vs Gate/Wormhole Tech.
Re: Jump vs Gate/Wormhole Tech.
RE: Ship Economics - Making a buck!
Re: Future History Revisionism
Paging Eris Reddoch
Re: Contact: Sayat
Re: The 5th Element
Re: Jump vs Gate/Wormhole Tech.
Re:jumps and gates
Jump vs Gate/Wormhole Tech.
Re: Contact: Sayat
Re: Jump vs Gate/Wormhole Tech.
Re: Speed of Light.
Re: Speed of Light.
Re:jumps and gates
RE: Future History Revisionism
RE: Contact: Sayat
Re: Communications and RF hazards
Re: M-Drive Question
Re: Jump vs Gate/Wormhole Tech.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 19:29:32 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Contact: Sayat

Leonard Erickson, perhaps having spent a wee bit too long reading
alt.sex.shemales <G>, wrote:

>> T::>The idea was to keep gross anatomical changes to the Sayat minimal -- no
>>  ::>ovipositors.  I wanted them to be clearly genetically engineered but not
>>  ::>necessarily *efficiently* engineered.
>
>Humans *already* have an ovipositor. It delivers modified, mobile ova
>called "sperm". It's a heavily modified clitoris called the penis.
>
>So just "back track" things a bit. Modify the X chromosome a bit and
>eliminate the Y. The urethra is as in a woman. The clitoris is modified
>to be larger and when engorged is finger thick and about a foot long.
>It's also prehensile so as to be able to connect more easily (a trait a
>number of mammals have)

This all makes great sense, and the approach to the 'problem' you take is
really interesting.  And pretty credible, in some respects -- for example,
I know that *adult* women who take testosterone (female-to-male
transsexuals, I'm talking here) usually have pretty dramatic growth of the
clitoris -- I've seen ~5 cm on one FTM after less than a year of hormone
treatments.  We're pretty plastic critters, even with TL6 (?) medicine.

Prehensile, now, well... <G>

[snip]

>Assuming that you believe Freudian psychologists, this makes the Sayat
>very, *very* unhuman. No "castration fear", no real difference between
>mother and father (and *both* are potential partners except for any
>taboos the society may have). I expect there's a taboo against having
>sex with yourself, as that'd be much worse than incest genetically
>speaking.

Hm, interesting... I do like it.  With ovum-donation being dependent on
having a functional ovipositor-thingy, though, seems you could still get
some sort of 'castration fear' complex.

So, do you think that in this case, the Sayat would have a masturbation
taboo as well, or just a taboo on knocking yourself up?  God, I love
science fiction!

Basically, though, for my own use, I'm still going to go with the Sayat as
written, and their 'inadequate' genetic engineering.  Anyone else who wants
to use them in a game or campaign setting is, of course, welcome to do as
you please -- it's not what I'd consider a really major part of the
background.  The point is just that they're monosexual, is all -- and
unless you're running a fairly adult-themed game, the exact genital
morphology isn't likely to be relevant.

Kenji
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:23:35 -0700
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au>
Subject: Problem

My mailer seems to have gone berko. Could someone please mail me the
last week or so's digests.

Thanks.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 14:02:01 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Contact: Sayat

On Thu, 8 May 1997, Kenji Schwarz wrote:

> This raises a more general question, though:  what sort of societies did
> the Ancients permit/provide to their various exported human populations?
> Were they all kept in a state of barbarism, nasty, brutish, and short; or
> kept as house pets/servants/laborers, bred for docility and obedience, or
> what?  Anyone have any thoughts or ideas on this?

I got the impression from the Droyne suppliment that Grandfather wanted
helpers, Droyne were to brain dead to be of any real use, so he searched
for others.  He found humans, he tried using them, but found that they
were to willful, so he let them be.  He then decided to create his own
race, so made the Vargr.  They were to unfocused to be helpful.  It was at
this point he created 20 Grand children to help him, all of Droyne descent
and sharing his genes (he was their father).

Why he transplanted humans everywhere I cant say.  I get the impression
that after his dabbling with human/vargr assistents he just let them be.
I also get the impression that the only other sentinent life he found were
*humans* from *Earth*.  He never used Aslan, or Hivers, nor is there an
indication he knew of them, which implies that Humanity is also the oldest
race in the Galaxy after the Droyne.

PaChi,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


Only a mediocre person is
always at his best

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 14:09:22 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Speed of Light.

Can anyone tell me how I would figure out the slowing down of time as I
approach the Speed Of Light?  Assuming that when I am travelling at the
speed of light time will stop, how would I figure out how much time passed
if I was travelling at half the speed of light and in Erath time I had
travelled 1000 years?

Thanks

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


Only a mediocre person is
always at his best

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 05:00:39 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Can HEPLAR fuel be used for jump fuel (and vice versa)?

On Sun, 11 May 1997, JayStr wrote:

> It has struck me that one advantage of a low-tech (pre-thruster plate)
> ship is that it can cannibalize its own jump fuel for longer HEPLAR burn
> time; or, conversely, can suck up a bunch of HEPLAR fuel into its jump
> tanks to get out of system in a big hurry. Each acts as a reserve for
> the other, provided the HEPLAR tank is at least 10% of the ship's total
> volume.

I have been doing this all along. I don't particulary like the 
reactionless thrusterplates (doesn't give me the science fiction
feel) so I have always used HEPlaR engines.

> 
> Is this canon? How long will it take to transfer fuel from one tank to
> the other? or can they both pull fuel from the same big tank? And what
> happens if one uses impure fuel in a HEPLAR drive? (I should think it
> would merely boost fuel consumption....)
> 
I would think that a ships fuel tank is mad up of many smaller units,
something I think is consistent with the rules where a fuel hit cost
a loss of a percentage of the stored fuel. (combat rules). I see
both the HEPlaR and Jump drives as draining fuel over time, although
JD draines it much faster. When it comes to HEPlaR burning impure 
fuel I would think that the fuel consumption goes up as those the 
strain on the drive, causing a higher chance for a drive failure.

> Well?
> 
The largest problem with the JD and HEPlaR drives as it stands
now is the 10% of the volume for jump. A J3 drive would take 
up 30% of hull volume, which really makes HEPlaR shipsvery difficult
to build. Everything becomes a tradeoff.

> -- Jay Stranahan
> 

Tommy Grav                  tommy.grav@astro.uio.no    
Institute of Astrophysics   http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/
University in Oslo          "If you value your lives, be somwhere 
Norway                       else!" - Ambassador Delenn B5 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 05:07:11 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Jump vs Gate/Wormhole Tech.

I would just like to point out that the technology used
in B5 for jumping is just like Traveller. In B5 they have 
just taken it a step further, designing a cronstruction 
that opens the jumppoint for the ship. Several of the 
vessels in B5 (the Cruiser-sized ships, the Gormez, the
White Star, the Shadowships can all enter Hyperspace 
bye there on power.

Star Trek uses in my view a hole other technique, where 
ships actually travelles faster than speed by warping 
space. The ships are at all times in real space.

Tommy Grav                  tommy.grav@astro.uio.no    
Institute of Astrophysics   http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/
University in Oslo          "If you value your lives, be somwhere 
Norway                       else!" - Ambassador Delenn B5 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 23:11:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Matrixs@aol.com
Subject: Re: Jump vs Gate/Wormhole Tech.

hmmmm.....interesting. But I refuse to think THAT much about it. hehe

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 20:13:48 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: RE: Ship Economics - Making a buck!

Sun, 11 May 1997 17:50:48 -0600, "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
>	Just like real world slow mail, where it costs me the same per trip
>rather
>than by distance, you mean? (32 cents to send a letter across the street or
>across the continent ...)

Though it makes a lot more sense to not try and calculate the cost
every time when one is spending less than a dollar.  When you are
spending hundreds to thousands of credits the anology doesn't hold
that well.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 May 97 21:09:54 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Future History Revisionism

On 05/12/97 at 09:30 AM,  Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
said:


> THERE IS NO TRAVELLER CANON!!!!

Hip! Hip! Hurrah!  

Eris,
    the Heretic..wait if there is no canon, then I'm not a Heretic after
all! ;->

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 21:46:28 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Paging Eris Reddoch

Sorry to bother everybody, but my mail to Eris (the Heretic Death) is
getting returned as undeliverable. Eris, wha'sup?

- -- The Heretic Famine, of the Four Horsemen of Traveller
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 21:44:07 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Contact: Sayat

At 02:02 pm 05/12/97 +1000, you wrote:
>Why he transplanted humans everywhere I cant say.  I get the impression
>that after his dabbling with human/vargr assistents he just let them be.
>I also get the impression that the only other sentinent life he found were
>*humans* from *Earth*.  He never used Aslan, or Hivers, nor is there an
>indication he knew of them

	Err, then why do the Droyne Coyns have Aslans, Hivers, etc on them?
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 23:44:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dedly@aol.com
Subject: Re: The 5th Element

I thought that it was good escapist sci-fi. The scenes of NYC gave me some
idea as to what Glisten (or at least the version in my universe) looks like.
The special effects were great and can only be fully appreciated on a large
screen. Yeah, there were holes in the plot but <shrug> I was entertained. I'd
give it 3.5 stars out of 5.

\_/
DED

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 15:11:12 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Jump vs Gate/Wormhole Tech.

On Sun, 11 May 1997 Matrixs@aol.com wrote:

hehehe thanks.

> hmmmm.....interesting. But I refuse to think THAT much about it. hehe
> 


SaHua,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


"We can be knowledgable with other men's knowledge but we cannot be wise
with other men's wisdom."
  - Montaigne

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 22:59:49 -0500
From: The Stump Family <stumps@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re:jumps and gates

Actually, there is an excellent discussion of FTL travel on the www ( a
search for "FTL and relativity" will find it - I've lost the address).
The essence, however, is that wormhole/gates will NOT work (probably)
while transferring to a seperate, universally consistant, frame of
reference (similar to jump drive - no matter how far you go it takes the
same amount of 'time' relative to your initial frame of
reference)probably WILL. 
 The long and short - based upon our present understanding of general
relativity, wormholes will not allow faster-than-light travel, using
'jump space' will.
  And, most importantly, its just a game; it won't change any textbooks
if we guess wrong.

- --Rick Stump stumps@earthlink.net--

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 21:16:03 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Jump vs Gate/Wormhole Tech.

>From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>

>WARNING! Thinking is dangerous!).  Before I continue, I am NOT a
>physicist or even a scientist.  My interest in science is from a purely

I'm not, either, but I've never let that stop me from responding to a post.  

>For those who do not know, a wormhole allows you to travel from any point
>in the universe to any other point in the universe via a short (a few
>kilometer length) tunnel in space.  The tunnel exists in hyperspace.  Its
>
>am only interested to see what the minds on the list say about this system
>replacing the current Jump system.  I would really like to hear

This could be the current jump system.  By TL 9, someone figures out how to create a 
tunnel in space.  The tunnel is always about the same length -- the distance that the 
ship goes in about one week.  The tunnel isn't in our space; it's in jump space.  As 
technological capability increases, the distances bridged by the artificial wormhole 
increase up to 6 parsecs.  Someone else will have to do the math that tells us that 
jumps above 6 are theoretically impossible; then someone else will have to find the 
citation to Imperial research stations devoted to research into jumps greater than 6.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 15:43:52 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Contact: Sayat

On Sun, 11 May 1997, David J. Golden wrote:

> At 02:02 pm 05/12/97 +1000, you wrote:
> >Why he transplanted humans everywhere I cant say.  I get the impression
> >that after his dabbling with human/vargr assistents he just let them be.
> >I also get the impression that the only other sentinent life he found were
> >*humans* from *Earth*.  He never used Aslan, or Hivers, nor is there an
> >indication he knew of them
> 
> 	Err, then why do the Droyne Coyns have Aslans, Hivers, etc on them?

The Coyns were presented way way way after the Ancients ceased to be the
Ancients, and Grandfather moved on to his pocket Universe.  As I said it
was just my impression.

Michael

Doing your best is more important than being the best
dennis Waitley

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 15:40:37 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Jump vs Gate/Wormhole Tech.

On Mon, 12 May 1997, Tommy Grav wrote:

Thanks for the info, I am far from being an expert on StarTrek and B5
technology. I got the impression that Babylon5 jump gates open a
wormhole to another jumpgate, much like the Wormhole in DS9, allowing
almost instant movement over vast areas of space.

> 
> I would just like to point out that the technology used
> in B5 for jumping is just like Traveller. In B5 they have 
> just taken it a step further, designing a cronstruction 
> that opens the jumppoint for the ship. Several of the 
> vessels in B5 (the Cruiser-sized ships, the Gormez, the
> White Star, the Shadowships can all enter Hyperspace 
> bye there on power.
> 
> Star Trek uses in my view a hole other technique, where 
> ships actually travelles faster than speed by warping 
> space. The ships are at all times in real space.
> 
> Tommy Grav                  tommy.grav@astro.uio.no    
> Institute of Astrophysics   http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/
> University in Oslo          "If you value your lives, be somwhere 
> Norway                       else!" - Ambassador Delenn B5 
> 
> 


Doing your best is more important than being the best
dennis Waitley

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 22:55:52 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Speed of Light.

At 02:09 pm 05/12/97 +1000, you wrote:
>
>Can anyone tell me how I would figure out the slowing down of time as I
>approach the Speed Of Light?  Assuming that when I am travelling at the
>speed of light time will stop, how would I figure out how much time passed
>if I was travelling at half the speed of light and in Erath time I had
>travelled 1000 years?

	The "tau factor" is used for both time and length contraction, and mass
increase, and is equal to (1-v^2/c^2). So in your case, the factor is
0.75==>750 years would have passed.
	This is, of course, an oversimplification of all the relativistic mumbo
jumbo and arguments about synchronicity, etc. But I'm not a physicist, just
a heretic.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 16:33:56 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Speed of Light.

On Sun, 11 May 1997, David J. Golden wrote:

> At 02:09 pm 05/12/97 +1000, you wrote:
> >
> >Can anyone tell me how I would figure out the slowing down of time as I
> >approach the Speed Of Light?  Assuming that when I am travelling at the
> >speed of light time will stop, how would I figure out how much time passed
> >if I was travelling at half the speed of light and in Erath time I had
> >travelled 1000 years?
> 
> 	The "tau factor" is used for both time and length contraction, and mass
> increase, and is equal to (1-v^2/c^2). So in your case, the factor is
> 0.75==>750 years would have passed.

So what your saying is that for every 1000 Earth years I travel at 50% the
speed of light, 750 years pass on the ship.  Correct?  This does not sound
right - but hey, I aint a Physicist either, nor am i a Heretic.

Michael

"It is difficult to say what is impossible, for the dream of yesterday is 
the hope of today and the reality of tomorrow."
  - Robert H. Goddard

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 16:27:07 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re:jumps and gates

On Sun, 11 May 1997, The Stump Family wrote:

Thanks for the pointer - I assume your talking about the Star Trek FTL
FAQ.  I will have a read and let you know what I think.

> Actually, there is an excellent discussion of FTL travel on the www ( a
> search for "FTL and relativity" will find it - I've lost the address).
> The essence, however, is that wormhole/gates will NOT work (probably)
> while transferring to a seperate, universally consistant, frame of
> reference (similar to jump drive - no matter how far you go it takes the
> same amount of 'time' relative to your initial frame of
> reference)probably WILL. 
>  The long and short - based upon our present understanding of general
> relativity, wormholes will not allow faster-than-light travel, using
> 'jump space' will.
>   And, most importantly, its just a game; it won't change any textbooks
> if we guess wrong.
> 
> --Rick Stump stumps@earthlink.net--
> 


"It is difficult to say what is impossible, for the dream of yesterday is 
the hope of today and the reality of tomorrow."
  - Robert H. Goddard

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 00:36:39 -0500
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: RE: Future History Revisionism

> THERE IS NO TRAVELLER CANON!!!!


	Well, now I shall call upon the Grand Inquisitor to force you to recant 
your heresies. May Strephon have mercy on your soul.

	But seriously, SURE there is a Traveller canon. Look, I have a whole pile 
of CT books and modules lying around. And you know what, I still get a hell 
of a lot of use out of 'em. And, IG and MM willing, I will still be able to 
use them for a long time to come.

	You pointed out some of the minor inconsistencies in the various past 
books and editions of Traveller. Fair enough - they do exist. But that sure 
isn't enough for me to through out the baby with the bath water.

	Since we're using the religious term "canon", lets look at the Christian 
canon -  the Holy Bible. Now, even as a Christian I can freely admit there 
are some contradictions between the various books and the various gospels. 
But does that mean that the Bible is meaningless? No!

	(BTW, the last thing I want to do is start any kind of religious discus  
sion on the TML. The only thing more controversial than politics (which is 
pretty darn controversial, as I recently found out here) is religion).

	So I shall freely identify myself, not as a heretic, but as a True 
Believer in the Traveller Orthodoxy. I implore IG to be as consistent as 
reasonably possible with previously published material. Don't invalidate my 
CT books while I'm playing T4!

	And to all you heretics out there, who seem willing to throw out the canon 
at a moment's notice - after throwing out so much, at what  point are you 
no longer playing Traveller?

K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca
Campaign Manager for Gary Hollingshead,
Reform Candidate in Winnipeg South-Centre
Vote Reform!  http://www.reform.ca
The West wants in!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 00:39:45 -0500
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: RE: Contact: Sayat

At 02:02 pm 05/12/97 +1000, you wrote:
>Why he transplanted humans everywhere I cant say.  I get the impression
>that after his dabbling with human/vargr assistents he just let them be.
>I also get the impression that the only other sentinent life he found were
>*humans* from *Earth*.  He never used Aslan, or Hivers, nor is there an
>indication he knew of them

>	Err, then why do the Droyne Coyns have Aslans, Hivers, etc on them?
>-- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --


	Ahhh - good point. The reason is because the coyns were introduced into 
Droyne culture (by Grandfather) LONG AFTER the ancient period - something 
like -50,000.

K.C Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca
Campaign Manager for Gary Hollingshead,
Reform Candidate for Winnipeg South Centre
Vote Reform!  http://www.reform.ca
The West wants in!

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M*2 @3$].1Q-P1E2\15(C@P!P0Y M,G &<7]*04#@*C '@".0)C(;8&MY(% M
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M!:Q#82/@"W!G`Z!-`'#>82I@!< "$ 7 1PK (" 62 ;P)B)S%B!A9"S]1P52
M#< %L!W 5Y T$27@>QS06)-7"X #`%&@)E!3VPA@)I%#)^$N=U8<P5IEOB%"
MNQ>@6I)6^$KB5P>0W05 =R#A!" +@"%'!1;!`@!AX ````,`$! ``````P`1
M$ $```! ``<P\$5&E)9>O % ``@P\$5&E)9>O $>`#T``0````4```!213H@
.``````,`#33]-P``RV%>
`
end

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 18:41:42 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Communications and RF hazards

In mail you write:

>  Unfortunately, atmospheres 'eat up' a lot of RF power in most
> traditional radio freq. bands (the thicker, the worse. High humidity
> equals less power-to-receiver). Therefore portable radios for
> communicating with orbiting ships will need a fair amount of power to be
> useful on a wide variety of worlds (especially with exotic atmospheres,
> high-density, etc.).

The trick is to use some relays in low orbit. That's how all the
outfits planning to offer "satellite cellular" plan to do it. 50 to 100
satellites in orbits at 100 miles or less. You can get by with fewer
relays if the mobile units are restricted to a small area on the
surface. The closer to the equator, the fewer units you need.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 18:25:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: M-Drive Question

In mail you write:

>
>> The first group had a Scout with a scout ship. So they were in pretty
>> good shape. When they got around to looking at traders they were a bit
>> picky... :-)
>
> I guess I like the DGP overdrive explanation better.  It seems to me 
> that the free traders, intended for use on backwater worlds, would 
> not be that limited in landing;/taking off from worlds.
>
> Especially subsidized merchants.  These ships are created to service 
> worlds off the mains, and they only have a 1G M-Drive.
>
> How could the government expect worlds that are off the beaten path 
> to be serviced if the ships they are subsidizing to service them 
> cannot land/take off from many of them?

A size A world only has a surface gravity of 1.25 g. A size 9 has
1.125. All others are 1 g or less. Now if you start getting fancy with
the advanced rules then things get a bit different. But with the basic
rules, the problem affects 3/36 (1/12th) of the planets, and can be
overcome there with orbital stations or the like.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 17:23:52 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Jump vs Gate/Wormhole Tech.

On Sun, 11 May 1997, Glenn M. Goffin, Esq. wrote:

[wormholes]
> >am only interested to see what the minds on the list say about this system
> >replacing the current Jump system.  I would really like to hear
> 
> This could be the current jump system.  By TL 9, someone figures out how to create a 
> tunnel in space.  The tunnel is always about the same length -- the distance that the 
> ship goes in about one week.  The tunnel isn't in our space; it's in jump space.  As 
> technological capability increases, the distances bridged by the artificial wormhole 
> increase up to 6 parsecs.  Someone else will have to do the math that tells us that 
> jumps above 6 are theoretically impossible; then someone else will have to find the 
> citation to Imperial research stations devoted to research into jumps greater than 6.  

Thats not the way FTL is described in any Traveller manual.  Traveller
uses the "warping hyperspace field" and the "folding paper" idea, which is
different from the Wormhole concept.  Thats why a few weeks ago a asked
for a Traveller definition of how FTL (Jump) work's to make sure I was
not wasting my time and that in fact Traveller does use Wormhole based
FTL as opposed to field based FTL.

Thanks for the comments though.

_Michael


"It is difficult to say what is impossible, for the dream of yesterday is 
the hope of today and the reality of tomorrow."
  - Robert H. Goddard

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1306
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, May 12 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1307



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re:jumps and gates
Re: Paging Eris Reddoch
RE: Speed of Light.
Re: The Fifth Element
Re: Contact: Sayat
Re: TL _17_ robot world
Re: B5 jumptech
Re: Future History Revisionism
Re: Trains Planes and Jump Drive
Re: Communications Question
MT fuel expenditure
Re: Contact: Sayat
Open fire - All Canons
Re: Contact: Sayat
MAJOR PROBLEM WITH QSDS/FFS
Re: Geonee Post: The Llyrnians (longish)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 17:27:15 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re:jumps and gates

On Sun, 11 May 1997, The Stump Family wrote:

Reda the FAQ, his concept of Wormholes is slightly different to mine, mine
does not cause unanswerable paradox, like the Grandfather Paradox for time
travel.  He also seems to debunk the standard Traveller FTL explanation,
but I only skim read it.

> Actually, there is an excellent discussion of FTL travel on the www ( a
> search for "FTL and relativity" will find it - I've lost the address).
> The essence, however, is that wormhole/gates will NOT work (probably)
> while transferring to a seperate, universally consistant, frame of
> reference (similar to jump drive - no matter how far you go it takes the
> same amount of 'time' relative to your initial frame of
> reference)probably WILL. 
>  The long and short - based upon our present understanding of general
> relativity, wormholes will not allow faster-than-light travel, using
> 'jump space' will.
>   And, most importantly, its just a game; it won't change any textbooks
> if we guess wrong.
> 
> --Rick Stump stumps@earthlink.net--
> 


"It is difficult to say what is impossible, for the dream of yesterday is 
the hope of today and the reality of tomorrow."
  - Robert H. Goddard

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 97 01:17:59 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Paging Eris Reddoch

On 05/11/97 at 09:46 PM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net> said:

> Sorry to bother everybody, but my mail to Eris (the Heretic Death) is
> getting returned as undeliverable. Eris, wha'sup?

Just to let everybody know, my ISP was down almost all day Sunday with
hardware problems.  Any mail anyone sent me during the day Sunday didn't
get to me.  Probably, bounced back to you.  

IAC, the ISP is back up and I'm still here.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 10:40:35 +0400
From: Andy Long <andyl@icluae.co.ae>
Subject: RE: Speed of Light.

>>>
>-----Original Message-----
>From:	Michael Solomani Mifsud [SMTP:solomani@electric-rain.net]
>Sent:	Monday, May 12, 1997 10:34 AM
>
>On Sun, 11 May 1997, David J. Golden wrote:
>[andy long]  <Snip> 
>> 	The "tau factor" is used for both time and length contraction, and mass
>> increase, and is equal to (1-v^2/c^2). So in your case, the factor is
>> 0.75==>750 years would have passed.
>[andy long]  <<<<
>
>I think that there's a SQRT in that equation, so it should be :-
>SQRT( 1 - ( v**2 / c**2 ) ) 
>Time dilates towards 0, mass increases towards infinity - you multiply time
>and length by Tau, and divide mass. The SQRT is the bit that says you don't
>go faster than light - solving the equation for v > c results in time, mass
>and length having imaginary roots (I never actually believed that PROVED
>anything, the equations just ACTUALLY say that you can't travel AT c for
>non-zero rest-mass)
>>>>>
>So what your saying is that for every 1000 Earth years I travel at 50% the
>speed of light, 750 years pass on the ship.  Correct?  This does not sound
>right - but hey, I aint a Physicist either, nor am i a Heretic.
>[andy long]  <<<<
>SQRT( 1 - ( ( 0.5 * c ) ** 2 / c ** 2 ) )
>Therefore SQRT( 1 - ( 0.25 * c ** 2 / c ** 2 ) )
>Therefore SQRT( 1 - 0.25 )
>Therefore SQRT( 0.75 )
>Therefore 0.8660254037844
>Therefore approximately 866 years shipboard.
>
>(according to Windows Calculator on my trusty Pentium..... Errm.... Yes, I
>THINK I've got the corrected chip....)
>
>Andy
>
>================================================================
>smtp Email:	andyl@icluae.co.ae OR
>		andylong@x400.icl.co.uk OR
>		A.G.Long@abu0101.wins.icl.co.uk OR
>		andylong@emirates.net.ae
>x400 Email:	c=ae;a=emdan;p=icl;ou1=abu0101;s=Long;i=AG;
>		o=International Computers Ltd;
>A.G. Long, c/o ICL	Phone:	+971 (2) 335200/338066
>PO Box 7237		Fax:	+971 (2) 338724
>Abu Dhabi
>United Arab Emirates
>================================================================
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 02:44:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kenneth Winland <kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: The Fifth Element

	Howdy!

	The Fifth Element was a good (but not great) film.  However, it
really shows Besson's influences; the Euro strips from Heavy Metal, which
I am sure ate his brain in the 70's.  For me, this film was the animated
embodiment of HM stories.  On that level, it was FANTASTIC.

	Laterish!

	Ken

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 00:32:52 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Contact: Sayat

Solomani wrote:

>On Thu, 8 May 1997, Kenji Schwarz wrote:
>
>> This raises a more general question, though:  what sort of societies did
>> the Ancients permit/provide to their various exported human populations?
>> Were they all kept in a state of barbarism, nasty, brutish, and short; or
>> kept as house pets/servants/laborers, bred for docility and obedience, or
>> what?  Anyone have any thoughts or ideas on this?

[snip]

>Why he transplanted humans everywhere I cant say.  I get the impression
>that after his dabbling with human/vargr assistents he just let them be.
>I also get the impression that the only other sentinent life he found were
>*humans* from *Earth*.  He never used Aslan, or Hivers, nor is there an
>indication he knew of them, which implies that Humanity is also the oldest
>race in the Galaxy after the Droyne.

Interesting info -- thanks for sharing it with us/me.  I am in a state of
deprivation of the Droyne module for the time being.

Aside:  Wouldn't the Vargr and the 'modified' minor races of humaniti be
'older races' than Solomani humans?  I mean, their distinguishing
biological traits were set 300,000-odd years ago, whereas Homo sapiens
sapiens is pretty modern (~30-50,000 y.a.?)  I dunno... sort of hard to
judge absolute "age" of species in any case.

Main next cool question:  How come Grandfather DIDN'T have anything to do
with the Aslan, Hiver, or K'kree?  I can't think of any mention whatsoever
of his fooling around with them, or even of Ancient artifacts in their
territories.  What's the story with *this*, eh?  And why are the Templars
so silent on the whole matter?

Kenji
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 09:42:27 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: TL _17_ robot world

>> Actually Sabmiqys is a tech level 17 world. The robots are all
>> anthropomorphic artificially intelligent robots. They only have TL-8
>> space flight, so they're not currently a threat to neighboring worlds.
>
>hmmm - who arethese guys? Ancient left overs?

The illustrations on how they look are so ugly as nobody in their right
mind could consider them canon or part of the Traveller universe. Look at
them in 101 Robots but keep a barfbag near :)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 09:48:27 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: B5 jumptech

>Thanks for the info, I am far from being an expert on StarTrek and B5
>technology. I got the impression that Babylon5 jump gates open a
>wormhole to another jumpgate, much like the Wormhole in DS9, allowing
>almost instant movement over vast areas of space.

Hyperspace in B5 is traversed with normal reaction engines but due to
babble-this-handwave-that hard to navigate. Terrans first got jumpgates
from another race and used their own sublight ships to cruise around but
later they learned how to make their own gates and also gated ships; ships
which carry thir gate with them a la Traveller. The RPG BTW is pretty good
but lack enough material to actually play. Item list consists of guns and
comm units etc but the referee can pick stuff up from the series. Did you
know that B5 is only available in US due to some contractual bullshit (I
had my girlfriend pick up a copy in San Fransisco but otherwise Europeans
are out of luck).


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 00:55:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Future History Revisionism

  What do you mean, there's no Traveller cannon!  Just the other day my
players were planning to kill Lucan, and they went to the book to find
just what to buy, and there were lots of really big cannons that looked
like just the thing to put up Lucan's...

  Oh, you said _canon_ - sorry about that.

  Seriously, there are some things that are canon in Traveller.  A few are
technological - things like the one week (plus or minus a little bit) jump
duration and anti-gravity.  Take those out and you are not playing
Traveller (or at least not a recognizable form of the game).  The most
important form of Traveller canon, however, is the historical background,
and that's something that has evolved over time.  The reason I enjoy the
game so much is not for the hardware - although I think meson guns are
cool, any SF game can provide a mechanism for killing other player
characters.  The reason I play is for the software, the historical
material.  To me that is what gives the game its feel, and the piddling
little details of ship design and the like are immaterial. 

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 00:37:18 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Trains Planes and Jump Drive

> Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 10:31:07 +1200
> From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
> Subject: RE: Trains Planes and Jump Drive
> 
> Peter Said
> 
> >If you have a higher Jump ship you can reach more different planets &
> >you can therefore find a planet which will be a _better_ market for  > >the cargo you are selling.

> While you can reach more planets that is no guarantee you can reach a
> better market.

It is not guaranteed in the case of any individual jump but it it is
_statistically_ certain.

In regions of average stellar density a jump 1 ship will probaly be able
to reach 3 planets, a jump 2 ship 9 planets, and a jump 3 ship 18
planets.  Different cargos will sell better at different planets. (see
the cargo price modifiers table from most versions of traveller).  The
more planets you can reach the more positive price modifiers you can
take advantage of. It is basic math to determine this.  Suppose that the
cargo you are selling has the trade code As-B (it comes from a TL 11
asteroid belt) it will sell for a base price of +1000 credits a ton at
another As,  a In, Na, Ri, or Va.  You want to take it to a planet with
as many of thse codes as you can find as these positive price modifiers
are all cumulative.  The more planets you have to choose from the better
your ods of racking up these positive price modifiers.
 
> Also, I feel that ships would be designed more specifically for their
> trading circumstances.  If you are in a sparse area then you will need > a high jump (and more expensive ship).  If you are one a main then    > Jump 1 is all you need.

It may very well be the case that the _designers_ of the ship did have a
certain trading circumstance in mind for their ship, however the owners
& operators of the ship won't care about what it was intended to be used
for they will care what they can make the most money doing.  If the
designers did their job right & understand economics this will be very
similar however.

> If the Imperium has set costs to be on a per jump basis (regardless of
> distance) then worlds in sparse area's will not be serviced by        > sufficient ships and so will fail.

They may be somewhat more likely to fail but on the other hand they may
be more likely to be self sufficient.
 
> As the Imperium is powered by Economics then it must allow traders (of > all sizes) to make a reasonable profit and so Higher jump ships must  > be able to charge on a per parsec basis.

Yes it should, but it does not & that is the system we are dealing
with.  The rules were presumably made for ease of play, they don't make
economic sense, & I have always assumed they were Imperial Law because
nothing else could explain them. If I were running a TNE non regency
campaign I would not use them.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 11:42:47 +0100
From: Nick Munn <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Communications Question

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:

>> OK, sarcasm aside, does that mean that the different refractive
>> indexes for differing frequencies of light are due to them having
>> different speeds through the medium they're in?
>
>Index of refraction = c/(speed of light in material)
>
>So in diamond, with an index of refraction of 2.42, means that light
>travels at 1/2.42 of c. 

However, this isn't strictly true.  The relative permittivity eta_r
of a material (which is related to its refractive index n) is found 
to vary with the frequency of EM radiation.  For non-magnetic
insulators, eta_r = n^2, but both change with frequency.

This is of course how prisms work: the speed of different coloured 
light (different frequencies) in the same medium is different.

So the answer to the original poster's question is "yes".  Or more 
strictly, "vice versa" since it's the refractive index of the 
material which determines the speed of light...

And of course there are non-linear optical materials which react to 
light etc. in interesting ways.  Even a lump of crystal can be used
to frequency-double red laser light to green -- tho' it has to be the 
right sort of crystal (non-centrosymmetric) and cut properly.

Don't get me started...

Nick

Nick Munn, University of Sheffield, Dept. of Information Studies

"Just because he is unhappy, it does not follow that he is in love."
(Horace Walpole, _The Castle of Otranto_)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 11:50:50 +0100
From: Nick Munn <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: MT fuel expenditure

I am very suprised to hear people saying that MT jump fuel was used 
on a "per parsec" basis.  The only thing I remember reading about it 
was in response to a question in MT Journal #4 (I think), where the 
answer was: MM's jumpspace article and subsequent comments imply that 
all fuel is used for any jump.  However, the questioner's variant 
system was thought to be sensible:

Any jump uses the appropriate fuel volume.  For example, any jump-1 
uses 10% of the ship's volume in fuel, jump-2 uses 15%, etc..  Hence
a jump-3 ship is not capable of 3 parsecs of jump, it's capable of 
one jump-3, one jump-2  or two jump-1.

This was the system I'd independently evolved, which I though made a 
decent balance between "jump drives are tuned to work at one fuel 
consumption only" and "shorter jumps require less fuel".

Nick

Dr. N.S. Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, Univ. of Sheffield, U.K.
email N.S.Munn@shef.ac.uk, tel. +44 (0)114 222 2673

Liberal elitist socialist * Cat-lover * Guitarist * Sardonic humourist

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 22:21:27 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Contact: Sayat

On Mon, 12 May 1997, Kenji Schwarz wrote:

> Interesting info -- thanks for sharing it with us/me.  I am in a stateof
> deprivation of the Droyne module for the time being.

Welcome, I think the Ancients are a cool idea, if I ever wrote a book or
made a series I would make Humans the Ancients.  Humans are always
portrayed as a younger race.

> Aside:  Wouldn't the Vargr and the 'modified' minor races of humaniti be
> 'older races' than Solomani humans?  I mean, their distinguishing
> biological traits were set 300,000-odd years ago, whereas Homo sapiens
> sapiens is pretty modern (~30-50,000 y.a.?)  I dunno... sort of hard to
> judge absolute "age" of species in any case.

I see what your saying, but this makes no sense.  Terra is the homeworld
of all Humaniti as well as the Vargr.  So either our current primitive
dating system is wrong, or the Ancients screwed up somehow :)

> Main next cool question:  How come Grandfather DIDN'T have anything to do
> with the Aslan, Hiver, or K'kree?  I can't think of any mention whatsoever
> of his fooling around with them, or even of Ancient artifacts in their
> territories.  What's the story with *this*, eh?  And why are the Templars
> so silent on the whole matter?

Can't say.  Being a Solomani I would have to say that they became
sentinent AFTER the Cataclyism or he did know about them, but Humans are so
far superrior to your average Hive/Aslan etc that he decided to try and 
use Humans.  Which reinforces the Solomani Cause, and just adds weight to
the belief that Humans, in particular those from Earth, should rule the
Galaxy!

Long Live the Cause!
Long Live the Solomani!

:)


PS you might also be interested to know that Grandfather eventually used
Robots/Androids to be assistents.

- -Michael



Hells logic consists in preventing murder by murdering all murderers.
- -The Singer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 10:33:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Open fire - All Canons

Welcome to "TML Flamefest Top 10".
Coming in at number 3, it's...

> > THERE IS NO TRAVELLER CANON!!!!

"It's got a good beat and I can dance to it - I give it a 9 out of 10, Dick"

> 	Well, now I shall call upon the Grand Inquisitor to force you to recant 
> your heresies. May Strephon have mercy on your soul.
> 
> 	But seriously, SURE there is a Traveller canon.

One of these days, I gotta look up "canon" in the dictionary.

> 	You pointed out some of the minor inconsistencies in the various past 
> books and editions of Traveller. Fair enough - they do exist. But that sure 
> isn't enough for me to through out the baby with the bath water.

Yes. There is a certain amount of conflict with respect to starship
maneuver drives, yes. CT had no options. MT had no options, well, yeah,
until COACC and Hard Times came out (both described various types
of reaction drives). TNE changed things rather seriously.

There is, however, a written history of space and humaniti, which
is accepted in all version of Traveller. The three Imperia, the seven
major races, the three "major" branches of humaniti, the various "minor"
races. the (rough) layout of space, etc. 

While almost all Trav sources in CT/MT/T4 have ships that use thruster plates,
it certainly doesn't say anywhere that you _can't_ have other types
of ships. The only "canonical" kind of statement I would make about
ship drives is that "the most common type of maneuver drive is the
thruster plate". Now, if you wanted to change that, ok, big deal. it
doesn't really affect things much.

Now, when you go and say "the maximum TL reached by the Rule of Man
was TL 15", this, uh, kind of buggers things up. It really plays
with the written, descriptive history of the Imperium. It would be
like a modern historian saying "Yeah, the Romans had a large assortment
of small firearms. No big deal."

My complaint about "canon" was really pretty much about meson guns in
particular, which operated in the same basic manner in CT, MT and TNE.
There's also a number of written descriptions of their "operating principles"
which describe how they work and that they're very effective. T4 has
gone and basically thrown that all out - in that one category. I consider
this effective castration of meson guns (who was talking about Freud before?)
to be a lot more severe than swapping types of m-drives around. If 
T4 is really supposed to be set in the same universe as CT, MT and TNE,
than the rules it describes are wrong, because the universe didn't work
that way yesterday. (Some of the rules, not all of them).

> 	So I shall freely identify myself, not as a heretic, but as a True 
> Believer in the Traveller Orthodoxy. I implore IG to be as consistent as 
> reasonably possible with previously published material. Don't invalidate my 
> CT books while I'm playing T4!

Don't invalidate my CT, MT and TNE books by allowing 200 dTon
merchants to be completely immune from meson guns.

> 	And to all you heretics out there, who seem willing to throw out the canon 
> at a moment's notice - after throwing out so much, at what  point are you 
> no longer playing Traveller?

Yes, if you're playing with the GURPS system and have made a number of 
"minor history revisions", you're playing a Traveller-inspired game,
not Traveller. Not that there's anything wrong with that - just don't
tell me that I can't say that there's a Traveller "canon". If you don't
like using said canon, fine, but don't tell me that it doesn't exist.

Ethan
- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 17:45:34 +0300
From: Mikko =?iso-8859-1?Q?Syrj=E4?= <mikko@3d-system.fi>
Subject: Re: Contact: Sayat

>On Sun, 11 May 1997, David J. Golden wrote:
>
>> At 02:02 pm 05/12/97 +1000, you wrote:
>> >Why he transplanted humans everywhere I cant say.  I get the impression
>> >that after his dabbling with human/vargr assistents he just let them be.
>> >I also get the impression that the only other sentinent life he found=
 were
>> >*humans* from *Earth*.  He never used Aslan, or Hivers, nor is there an
>> >indication he knew of them
>>=20
>> 	Err, then why do the Droyne Coyns have Aslans, Hivers, etc on them?
>
>The Coyns were presented way way way after the Ancients ceased to be the
>Ancients, and Grandfather moved on to his pocket Universe.  As I said it
>was just my impression.
>

	Something just popped to my mind...

	Droynes (and Chirpers) have ability to develop mentally and
	physically given right kind of outside stimulus (like Coyns).
	So, is it possible to have similar, but superior, ritual that
	can transform ordinary Droyne to Ancient? Perhaps casting
	ritual given by Grandfather is just downgraded version of
	something that originally made Ancients some 300000 years ago.

	I can imagine Droyne psionic reserch center trying to
	understand how the Coyns work and how to improve the ritual...

		Mikko

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mikko Syrj=E4         3D-system Oy        tel: +358-(0)9-27090170
                    Kielotie 14 B       fax: +358-(0)9-27090179
                    FIN-01300 Vantaa
                    Finland             e-mail: mikko@3d-system.fi
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 10:18:50 -0500
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: MAJOR PROBLEM WITH QSDS/FFS

I think there needs to be some MAJOR rethinking regarding the surface area
requirements of the external grapples.  Take this example from QSDS...


A 10 ton External Grapple requires 441 sq meters...

The 10-ton vessel has a length (as a sphere) of 7 meters.  Now, let's add a
meter and a half to each side of the grapple to give room for any extra
fittings, hoses, or other items that might need to be there.  Now we hav 10
meters.  Allowing for a square attachment area, that is 100 square meters.
What is QSDS doing with the additional 341 sq. meters??????

FFS is slightly more humane about it.  The surface area required is the
final length cubed.  For the sphere above it is fine (49 sq meters), but
let's assume we want a needle hull form.  The 7 meter length becomes 21
meters, and the FFS required surface area is...  441 sq. meters.

Well, we can see where QSDS came up with the 441, but consider for a moment
that the dimensions of the hull (assuming most of the area is covered like
in the sphere under FFS), the hull is 21m by 21m.  THIS IS LUDICRIOUS!!!

I have a solution. :)

For hulls under 100 Sdt (which is what we are really talking about), the
surface area required is 1.2 times the "footprint" of the carried craft.
The "footprint" of the carried craft, then, is the volume divided by 3.5m.
This gives a result of square meters.  The 3.5 meters is used to assume that
the carried craft is a single "deck."  Take the height away and all you have
is length and width which is what attaches to the hull of the "Mother Ship."
The 1.2 multiplier allows for some space around the craft.  Even 2 times the
"footprint" would be an improvement over what we have now.

I think this is much more fair than the previous method.  Consider...

Displacement:  30Sdt
               ------------Area Required--------------------
Form            FFS       QSDS      New(1.2)    2xfootprint
Open           1037        762        144          240
Needle          762        762        144          240
Wedge           529        762        144          240
Cylinder        339        762        144          240
Box             132        762        144          240
Sphere           85        762        144          240
Dome/Disc       190        762        144          240
Close           259        762        144          240
Slab            640        762        144          240


Displacement:  80Sdt
               ------------Area Required--------------------
Form            FFS       QSDS      New(1.2)    2xfootprint
Open           2134       1569       384            640
Needle         1568       1569       384            640
Wedge          1089       1569       384            640
Cylinder        697       1569       384            640
Box             272       1569       384            640
Sphere          174       1569       384            640
Dome/Disc       392       1569       384            640
Close           534       1569       384            640
Slab           1318       1569       384            640


Well, after glancing over the above, I think my grapples in the short future
will be FFS grapples and I'll pay full price.  Just have to remember to make
those cmall craft Boxes, Spheres, or Dome/Discs!!!!

Somebody with the ability to fix this please look at it!!!

    Paul {tiger}
     tiger@goldinc.com
     http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 18:16:41 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: Geonee Post: The Llyrnians (longish)

>From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>

        First, thanks for all the grammar corrections. Is hard to learn a
third language...

>I could have sworn I remembered you describing the Llyrn as heavy-
>worlders, though I may just be confusing them with their more muscular
>human patrons.  :-)  But an Earth-density world 3,000 miles in diameter
>would have a gravity of some 0.375 g's, which doesn't give me too much
>confidence in the inhabitants' fighting ability in close quarters.  (Their

        The Llyrnians are a Low-G race. Their fighting ability is superior
to that of humans in Low and zero-G, precisely because they are Low-G
adapted. The Geonee are High-G adapted, so, when artificial gravity fails on
a starship, their troops are not very good... They are better than the
Geonee on starships, and on small planets. E.g., Kiimda, the conquered
colony of Shiwonee, which is size 1.

>digging prowess might assist in that, of course, but you don't specify how
>they do it -- strong claws?  acid expectorant?)  The close quarters they

        Good insight. They have very strong, hard *hands* that can be
considered claws for fighting. For digging, these "claws" can vibrate to
make the soil loose... anyway, only the more primitive Llyrnians dug without
tools.

>evolved in and still inhabit wouldn't give me great confidence either in
>any natural evolved ability, say, with missile weapons -- unlike humans,
>they have no open savannahs on which to practice hurling for millions of
>years.  Again, perhaps Geonee training of some elite cadres would help.
>But I'd like to know how these guys get such a studly reputation.... :-)

        That's for the detailed draft. This one was a summary ;-)
        Llyrnians fight mostly with short blade weapons, but also throw
things at short distance. They have no idea of how to throw a spear in a
parabola-like trajectory to hit a running foe, but they know a lot about
throwing a knife in a fairly linear trajectory against some advancing enemy
in a narrow corridor)
        Btw, Llyrnian vacc suits are really special... the gloves are of
strong materials, and fit to the hands/claws very tightly, so that the
Llyrnian marines can still use them as weapons. And, if a hand/claw breaks
your suit and starts to vibrate, forget about patches and say goodbye... a
trained Llyrnian *may* even break a battle dress integrity with a very lucky
punch.

        Once upon a time, a group of Vilani marines boarded a Geonee ship.
Lights went off, atmosphere disappeared, and artificial gravity failed.
Suddenly, a bunch of demons surrounded them, having apparently no problem
with the darkness, moving real fast while the marines tried to keep control
of themselves in zero-G... A demon *touched* one marine, and his vacc suit
opened. Scratch one marine. Another demon attacked a marine with a short
blade, outmaneuvering him. The marines opened fire, but all was chaos, and
they were only able to hurt themselves and lose control because of the
recoil of the weapons. One marine was able to cut the vacc suit of a demon,
but it seemed not to cause the demon any problem. Of the original twelve
marines, only two made it out of the ship. And the story spread fast...
        When a hundred demons attacked a Vilani colony on a gas giant moon
two months later, the legend was complete.

(Snip)
>beneath a volcano.  Llyrn's low gravity would also assist in preventing
>collapses in caves that wouldn't survive on Earth.

        Precisely that's the point. A *lot* more caves than in Earth are
possible.

>The geothermal energy sources is a nice touch, but begs the question: what
>precisely is the biochemistry upon which Llyrnian life is based?  With a
>type 3 atmosphere ("very thin") it isn't likely to be based much on gas
>exchange.  IIRC, Earth's geothermally supported life doesn't rely on
>atmosphere either.  So what does primitive (and, thence, more advanced)
>Llyrnian life subsist on?  Does it use sulfur instead of oxygen?  Do more
>advanced Llyrnian life forms "eat" sulfur, hoarding it in specially-
>evolved "lung" pouches for later metabolism, to allow travel outside the
>rich, comfortable volcanic areas?  "Life support" for Llyrnian caves would
>thus consist of heating and sulfur-conveyors.

(Snip)
        I wasn't thinking in such processes, but it's a good idea. Llyrn's
aytmosphere is Very Thin, but untainted. Life originated in geothermal
energy sources, but evolved towards oxygen-consumption (that's one of the
current theories on the origin of life on Earth, although not a popular
one), although more as an energetic complement than as a fundamental process
(i.e. Llyrnians can actually "hold their breaths" for a long time...) As for
sulfur, it is not breathed, but *eaten* in the diet, as most inferior life
forms on Llyrn use only sulfur, not oxygen.
        More details will follow. Any chemist in the list could tell me how
a mixed Oxygen/Sulfur consumption process may work?

>> a visual band which circles the whole head
>
>I think such a distributed visual system would probably be a weak one --
>which would be reasonable given the subterranean origins of the Llyrn.

        Yes, vision is definitively not their primary sense.

>What is their primary sense?  Smell and hearing would be unlikely if they
>exist in a thin atmosphere -- as would, unfortunately, the sonar you
>posit.  Perhaps, mole-like, they rely on sensing vibrations in the
>surrounding rock and soil?

        Maybe unlikely, but I think that the sonar and hearing senses are
feasible, and they could have evolved in a tunnel/cave environment, where,
although sound may not be very well transmitted, there would be all kind of
echoes. As for smelling, well, *if* they are able to smell a faint trace of
something in a very thin atmosphere, after a little training they would be
able of smelling *everything* in a standard atmosphere.
        The "sensing vibrations" bit is also a good idea. But, once you
sense vibrations in the rock and soil, it could be easy to evolve to
"sensing vibrations" in the (very thin) atmosphere, and that's hearing...
        Maybe it could be stated as a "General Vibration Sense", which
allows them sensing vibrations in soil and rocks (it first evolved for
this), hearing, and sonar.
 
>> [At first contact] Llyrn was then at TL 3, but the population had
>> already exceeded the one thousand figure.
>
>I should hope so!  There have been over a thousand humans at least since
>the modern form evolved, and I'd be surprised if a race could make it to
>TL3 in such numbers without dangerous inbreeding.

        Ooooops! Typo! I meant "...the one thousand MILLIONS figure..."

>Another comment: you don't mention how the three sexes work.  Does one
>provide the egg, fertilized at different times by the other two?  Do the
>three have to get together at the same time?  Do Llyrn lay eggs or bear
>live young?

        Yep. More detail will follow. The trilateral symmetry allows some
weird possibilities. In principle, the three should have to be together at
the same tine. The Llyrnians bear live youngsters.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1307
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, May 12 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1308



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

May THUDDD entry: Anderson class (long)
Re: A few comments on Milieu 0
RE: Contact: Sayat
RE: Open fire - All Canons
Laser design
RE: Contact: Sayat
Re:  Traveller-digest V1997 #1303
Re: Some Questions
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1307
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1307
Laser design
Re: Winmail.dat
Re: Ship economics -- fuel consumption
Speed of Light: Time Dialation
Future History Revisionism

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 16:39:22 +0100
From: Nick Munn <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: May THUDDD entry: Anderson class (long)

Imperial Shipping's _Anderson_ class exploratory trader  (QSDS 1.5)

Architect: Nick Munn (N.S.Munn@shef.ac.uk)


Hull details:  Airframe slab, max 4G, length 99 m [from SSDS data]

Tons:	2000	Volume:	28 000 m^3		Cost:	727.0 MCr
Crew:	49	High Pass:	2		Low Pass: 6 (+48)
Cargo:	100	Controls: Std mil., bridge	TL:	12

Size 09				  3 Jump (200 Td fuel/pc)
				  1 Maneuver (thrusters)
				+ 1 Maneuver (HEPlaR) (2 hr)
				  3 Powerplant (2570 MW)
1 x Mil. laser (+4) 1/4-4-3-2	650 Fuel (S 400, R 20)
4 x Civ. laser (+0) 1/2-0-0-0	  2 Meson Screen (3 MW)
				  4 Sand [30 ready each]
1 spacious hangar (100 Td)	  1 Nuclear Damper (15 MW)
3 airframe grapples for		A10 P4 J10 Sensors
	20t, 30t, 50t		 30 Armour	25 Structure


Crew detail:  7 Engineers, 2 Electronics, 2 Maneuver, 10 Gunnery,
	1 Screens, 12 Auxilliary Craft, 6 Troops, 6 Command crew,
	2 Stewards, 1 Medical

	High passengers often scientists or company officials

Additional details:
	Advanced comm. package
	100 Td collapsible tanks in cargo space
	 (leave 5 Td cargo when full)
	Engineering and vehicle shops near hangar
	Sickbay (2 person)
	Lab space (2 people)
	2 x 200 Td collapsible tanks in hangar area
	12 emergency low berths (hence +48 above)
	Crew in 43 small staterooms, command crew in 6 staterooms
		(slightly more space than usual in common areas)
	Concealed storage of 0.4 Td for contraband, firearms etc.

Description:

The Anderson class exploratory trader is a 2000 displacement ton
vessel, intended for use in discovering trade goods and markets in
unfamiliar space.  Its most unusual features are a docking bay for a
100-ton ship, intended for a 100-ton courier but usable by shuttles,
and its array of collapsible tanks.  One set of 200 Td tanks in the
hangar may be used freely, though this restricts work on craft above
50 Td displacement (add one level of difficulty to task).  If the
hangar is empty and gear stowed - which takes 12 person-hours - the
second set of 200 Td tanks may be filled.  Standard doctrine also has
every small craft fitted with collapsible fuel tanks in their cargo
hold, in order to jump to safety in the case of misjump.

It is expected that the cargo hold will contain spare parts,
consumables and trade goods.  As the voyage progresses, these will be
replaced by new trade items.  Six low berths allow the transport of
animal specimens or reserve crewmembers.

A 1G HEPlaR drive is fitted as backup to the main thrusters, or for
emergency acceleration.  The powerplants are sufficient to power all
components simultaneously, although only three 500 MW units are
required for normal operation (no HEPlaR).

Crew assignments vary, with troops sometimes replaced by scientific
staff or assigned to small craft.  The 12 auxilliary craft crew are
four mechanics and eight crew members; in practice, they represent
relief personnel for the main crew, and may not be assigned to one
craft only.

The price of this ship does not include the J3, 2G courier ship at
MCr 50.6, or any small craft.  Common small craft selections are
	cutter, spare module and launch
        slow pinnace, ship's boat, gig
	slow pinnace, heavy fighter, gig
although the commercial availability of fighters is extremely low.


Press Release, Imperial Shipping LIC (founded 009-001)

In search of new markets?  Need a fresh supplier of those lucrative
extra-imperial goods?  Then you need a ship which can get you there
before the competition, keep you alive while you skim the cream from
the local economies, and be on its way before rival firms are
squabbling over the crumbs you've left them.  You need Imperial
Shipping's Anderson class Exploratory Trader, or you need a new job.
Because if your competitors buy and you don't, pretty soon you'll
need one.

Let's be honest.  It doesn't take an Anderson to jump three parsecs
in a week.  Wilderness refuelling is pretty common.  Most ships carry
a small craft or two.  So what makes our ship so special?  The clean
lines of a 99m airframe hull?

How about the way it's built around a massive 400 Td hangar?  (It's
nearly the size of some of our competitors' ships.)

A hangar that houses a very special scoutship.  We can't confirm
that it's related to the latest Navy courier.  Nor can we deny it. 
This lightly-armed ship can carry enough fuel for two 3-parsec jumps,
using a collapsible fuel tank to maintain cargo capacity.  When your
trade information won't wait, you don't have to abandon your
expensive mission -- just send the Type S3 courier.

A hangar big enough for shuttles to pour trade goods into the ample
100 Td cargo bay.  Just the thing when you're receiving goods from
civilisations that don't have Fusion Plus(TM) -- yet!

A hangar which can be used as fuel storage, thanks to innovative use
of collapsible tanks.  (We've put them in the cargo bay, too.)

We're nearly as pleased with our hangar as you'll be.  Especially
when you need the space for repairs.  Or fuel.  Or spares.  Or an
end-of-tour celebration.

Of course, we supply fittings for a number of other small craft.
However, we believe you're the best judge of your trading needs, so
we don't force you to take some standard package of craft.  Our
advisers are always ready to help you choose, however, so you've
still got all the power of Imperial Shipping's experience behind you.

You've also got the power of our milspec laser battery, in case of
trouble.  Plus four secondary turrets.  Four sandcasters.  A nuclear
damper, in case your potential trading partners haven't heard about
the Imperial ban.  A heavily-armoured hull.  Even a meson screen. 
(Recent medical research indicates it reduces radiation exposure for
deep space crews like yours.)  And with our Navy-issue sensor gear,
you'll see trouble coming before it sees you.

If you need to run, you've got a HEPlaR drive to boost you away from
trouble.  And of course, two separate main drives means never having
to say "sundive".  Especially when the Anderson has five main 500 MW
powerplants, runs on two, and cruises on three.  Of course, our fuel
purification plant keeps everything clean, but accidents -- and
worse -- can happen.  That's why we've included engineering and
vehicle shops, to help your engineers keep things running smoothly.

Keeping your crew running smoothly is as important as maintaining
your drives, so we've included plenty of common space for recreation,
as well as individual staterooms for every crewmember.  We've left
you space for a security detachment, plus a couple of high
passengers.  Or maybe you want a couple of top scientists to work in
the on-board analysis lab? Again, it's your choice, because trading
is your business.  Designing quality starships is ours.

And because of our key role in establishing standard, modular
starship components throughout the Imperium, we're cheaper than you'd
think. MCr 727 buys you more quality than the competition can stand. 
They know that too.  Buy first.  Buy now.  Buy Anderson, from
Imperial Shipyards.

There's only one feature of the Anderson we hope you won't use: the
emergency low berths.  Still, at least you won't be there for the
rest of your life, like on most ships.  But then, they don't carry a
scoutship capable of two 3-parsec jumps.  Just high insurance 
premiums.


- -----

Design Worksheet:

Component	Vol/Td	  Area/m^2	Pwr/MW	 MCr	   Crew

Hull					 543.1	  95.1
Jump-3		 80	    373			 336	    1.8
HEPlaR 1G	  8	    112		1120	   1.1	    0.3
Thrusters	 36	    101		 504	 126	    1.2
Mil controls	  3.4	      0.3	   2.5	  18.5
Std mil sensor	  1.2	     44.6	  85.2	  62.5	    0.8
Advanced commo	  0.0	    203		  21.5	   2	    0.8
Civ lasers (4)	 12	     40		  53.2	   5.6	    4
Mil laser	 20.3	     62.1	 203.1	  34.6	    1
4 sandcaster	 12	     40		   4	   3.2	    4
Meson screen-2	  4.3	     30		   3	   6	    0.1
Nuc damper-1	  6	     20		  15	   2	    1
Engnr shop	  6			   0.6	   1
Vehicle shop	 10			   1	   2
Lab [for 2]	  8			   0.8	   5
Sickbay [for 2]   8			   0.8	   5
Hangar		400	 c. 200			   1.3
Grapples	 30	    576			   0.4
		 45	    762			   0.6
		 75	   1129			   1.1
Jump fuel	600
Purif. plant	 48			  10.1	   0.3
Collaps. tanks	 25				   0.7
PP 5 x 500 MW	 89.5				 250	    2
PP 50 + 20	  2.5				   7	    0.1
27 Bridge wstn   27				   0.054
8 lge stateroom	 32			   0.008   0.8
43 sm stateroom	 86			   0.0215  1.72
12 em. low	 24			   0.024   1.2
6 low berth	  6			   0.006   0.3
Cargo		100.4
Fuel		 50

Totals: 1855.6 Td, 3693 m^2, 2568.7615 MW, MCr 969.374 before 
discount.


- -----

Design notes:

I had to extrapolate a bit to get the 400 ton hangar, so maybe I
should add MCr 0.3 to the final (discounted) price for that.  The use
of collapsible tanks in the hangar is a bit arguable, too, though at
least 200 tons should certainly be possible.  Other than that,
everything is standard QSDS.

I've gone for a real mix of features, on the basis that the ship
will be an explorer rather than a trader.  The emphasis is therefore
on sample goods and knowledge, coupled with sustainability, rather
than traditional trade performance.  This explains the MCr 7.3 per
cargo ton cost (although that doesn't allow for cargo aboard the
small craft).  The lab is symptomatic of this approach.

The scoutship is key to this design, so I give details below.  It's
not a Navy Courier (which exists as an SSDS design with EMM and
better sensors, etc.) but has identical performance.  The ability to
send data back to a parent company is invaluable to exploratory
trade.

I can't wait to tell a group of PCs "OK, you're crew of the
exploratory trader _Harrison_, which has just misjumped badly. 
There's a single scoutship in which to get help, and you've been
selected to fly it. Good luck."



Type S3 Scout/Courier (QSDS 1.5)

Nick Munn

Hull details:  Needle S, max 4G

Tons:	100	Volume:	1 400 m^3		Cost:	50.6 MCr
Crew:	6 (2)	High Pass:	0		Low Pass: 0
Cargo:	29.5	Controls: Std civilian		TL:	12

Size 09				  3 Jump (30 Td fuel/pc)
				  2 Maneuver (thrusters)
				  3 Powerplant (135 MW)
1 x Civ. laser (+0) 1/2-0-0-0	 31 Fuel (S 20, R 0)
				  0 Meson Screen (3 MW)
				  0 Sand [30 ready each]
				  0 Nuclear Damper (15 MW)
				A2 P3 J0 Sensors
				 20 Armour	9 Structure

Crew detail:  1 Engineer, 1 Electronics, 2 Maneuver, 1 Gunnery,
	1 Command crew.	(Can be run by 2 people.)


Accomodation:	1 large stateroom, 2 small stateroom, 3 bunks

Other:	30-ton collapsible tank in cargo hold.
	Improved commo package
	Powerplant sizes: 75 MW + three 20 MW.
	PP fuel lasts c. 6 months.


Dr. Nick Munn, University of Sheffield, Dept. of Information Studies
 (formerly nsm14@cus.cam.ac.uk, now N.S.Munn@shef.ac.uk)

Scientist * Freelance theologian * Traveller player and BITS member

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 12:32:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brett Fishburne <bfish@atlantech.net>
Subject: Re: A few comments on Milieu 0

At 10:47 AM 5/11/97 -0700, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
<snip>
>Thus a non-member world has the power to become a member of the 
>Imperium just be deciding to do so -- no approval by the rest of 
>the Imperium, no proclamation by the Emperor, no advice and consent 
>of the Moot, no standards (except Calendar Compliance).  

>Where might this problem arise?  

<snip>

How about someone requesting admission for worlds which would prefer not to
be admitted?  There doesn't seem to be any check for concurence of the world
government itself...Just a thought.  Seems like a good plan for a game
scenario (or a way to put a couple of worlds a war).

Brett Fishburne
bfish@atlantech.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 11:51:31 -0500
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: RE: Contact: Sayat

>Main next cool question:  How come Grandfather DIDN'T have anything to do
>with the Aslan, Hiver, or K'kree?  I can't think of any mention whatsoever
>of his fooling around with them, or even of Ancient artifacts in their
>territories.  What's the story with *this*, eh?  And why are the Templars
>so silent on the whole matter?
>
>Kenji
>kenji@accessone.com


	This is pure conjecture, but from a game design perspective I think it was 
because Marc Miller et al didn't want the Ancients to be behind EVERYTHING, 
just most things. I mean I'm sure its completely possible for at least a 
few species to evolve and develop jump drive without Yaskoydray's 
influence.

	Now the real questions is - the Coynes were introduced into Droyne society 
something like ~-50,000. This was well after the Ancient period, but long 
before the Aslan, Hivers or K'kree developed jump drive. What gives?

K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca
Campaign Manager for Gary Hollingshead,
Reform Candidate in Winnipeg South Centre
Vote Reform!  http://www.reform.ca
The West wants in!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 12:03:02 -0500
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: RE: Open fire - All Canons

Ethan Henry wrote:
>> > THERE IS NO TRAVELLER CANON!!!!
>
>"It's got a good beat and I can dance to it - I give it a 9 out of 10, 
Dick"

>> 	So I shall freely identify myself, not as a heretic, but as a True
>> Believer in the Traveller Orthodoxy. I implore IG to be as consistent as 
>> reasonably possible with previously published material. Don't invalidate 
my
>> CT books while I'm playing T4!
>
>Don't invalidate my CT, MT and TNE books by allowing 200 dTon
>merchants to be completely immune from meson guns.
>

	Hey, I'm agreeing with you. I really haven't followed the meson gun 
debate, but that sure seems counter-canon to me. Which I am against. I just 
wrote a general defense of the canon in general.

>> 	And to all you heretics out there, who seem willing to throw out the 
canon
>> at a moment's notice - after throwing out so much, at what  point are 
you
>> no longer playing Traveller?
>
>Yes, if you're playing with the GURPS system and have made a number of
>"minor history revisions", you're playing a Traveller-inspired game,
>not Traveller. Not that there's anything wrong with that - just don't
>tell me that I can't say that there's a Traveller "canon". If you don't
>like using said canon, fine, but don't tell me that it doesn't exist.

	Exactly. And of course, I would never presume to tell someone how they can 
or can't play Traveller. But, just don't come to ME and call it Traveller.

K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 17:04:10 GMT
From: starwolf@sn.no (StarWolf)
Subject: Laser design

Did any of you on the list design the TL-13 CLC on page 93 in the RC
Equipment Guide? I'm working on a spreadsheet to design small arms
lasers, and using Excel. And the above mentioned laser are being used
for checking my numbers. If possible I would like to see a complete
worksheet.

BTW: In the process of the design I found an grevious error I had made
with starship lasers. If any of you are using my laser design from
HIWG Document 142.13, you'll have to scrap all the non-grav focusing
lasers. They have too small Focal Arrays. Sorry. I'll make new designs
to compensate for this. A new version of the document will be found in
my FTP archive to Friday.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Myhre                 |"Never worry about theory as long as the=20
http://home.sn.no/~starwolf | machinery does what it's supposed to do."
Universal Internet          |
            Number: 127772  |                  -- R. A. Heinlein

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 12:08:11 -0500
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: RE: Contact: Sayat

	>Something just popped to my mind...

	>Droynes (and Chirpers) have ability to develop mentally and
	>physically given right kind of outside stimulus (like Coyns).
	>So, is it possible to have similar, but superior, ritual that
	>can transform ordinary Droyne to Ancient? Perhaps casting
	>ritual given by Grandfather is just downgraded version of
	>something that originally made Ancients some 300000 years ago.

	I don't think so. Ancient=Droyne, Droyne=Ancient. As far as I can tell, 
the only differences are cultural, not any real physiological differences.

The Ancients simply didn't need the mystic mumbo-jumbo to caste. But the 
culturally degraded modern-day Droyne do.


>I can imagine Droyne psionic reserch center trying to
	>understand how the Coyns work and how to improve the ritual...

	I sincerely doubt it. The extreme reverence and sacredness of the Droyne 
casting ritual would probably preclude any research in that area. At least 
by the Droyne.

	Now how about a human psionic researcher, who has to deal not only his own 
academic peers, but the cultural prejudices of his Droyne test subjects?

K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca
	

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 10:26:45 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re:  Traveller-digest V1997 #1303

>>NASA played with this last year with a power generating satellite
>        Err, not quite, as the shuttle flies above the atmosphere, not in it (is
>the ionosphere not the upper layer of the atmosphere?). IIRC correctly,
>NASA was playing with, basically, a giant generator. For a generator, all
>you need to do is move a conductor through a magnetic field. That'll cause
>a current flow. The earth has a very large magnetic field ... stretch out a
>very long conductor, and let the current flow!

It was both a generator and a space-plasma experiment; rather than running
a complete current-carrying loop, they only ran one wire to the tethered 
satellite - the return current path was through the ionized plasma in 
that region of near-earth space, which is still relatively thick.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 19:56:53 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Some Questions

- -> A mix of the two, taking the best features of each game, would have 
- -> been an dynamite combination.
Oh so true!
- -> I see.  That was hard for me to do.  I felt like I was working the 
- -> same problem on the same screen each time.  I was really disappointed 
- -> in that part of the game.
True again, and only solveable if you are able to ignore that 
feeling. Hey, talking about repetitive games: i am just playing Bard's 
Tale III again :-)! 
- -> I actually stumbled upon these games in the "old" section of a 
- -> computer game store about five years ago.  I think I bought the 
- -> first one for $15, and the second for only $5!
I bought them on the second hand games market, although i knew they 
existed from the beginning. 
- -> I consider myself lucky to have found these.  I didn't even know 
- -> Traveller had computer games, and until your post, I didn't know that 
- -> a third one was planned.
I only found out about that a month ago, when i purchesed an old 
Microplay fantasy RPG: Challenge of the Five realms, of which i 
hadn't heard anything before, only because of the only line on the 
back "Designed by RPG Hall of Famer Marc Miller!". That bit made me 
buy that game on the spot. What can i say, i'm a groupie!
 
- -> I'd like to see IG  come  up with a good Traveller computer game.
You can say that again!
Let's pester them ontil they give in! 
I really want to see Bard's Tale IV: "Traveller" (NOT!!!!). But a 
game that jives with modern standards would be excellent!Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 19:26:18 +0100 (BST)
From: "mark.wilkin" <aa4mwi@zen.sunderland.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1307

> 
> Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 09:48:27 +0100
> From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
> Subject: Re: B5 jumptech
> 
> >Thanks for the info, I am far from being an expert on StarTrek and B5
> >technology. I got the impression that Babylon5 jump gates open a
> >wormhole to another jumpgate, much like the Wormhole in DS9, allowing
> >almost instant movement over vast areas of space.
> 
> Hyperspace in B5 is traversed with normal reaction engines but due to
> babble-this-handwave-that hard to navigate. Terrans first got jumpgates
> from another race
The Centari, they sold it to humans for trinkets and tourist souvenirs :-)
(no really)
> and used their own sublight ships to cruise around but
> later they learned how to make their own gates and also gated ships; ships

Actually you need normalspace AND jumpspace engines, the actual jumpspace 
engines are small enough to fit in a small ship. But the engines which 
actually break into hyperspace (i.e. the gates) are too big to fit on 
small ships which is why they have to use the gates.
Of course Vorlons and Shadows throw two fingers to this and do whatever 
they want. Minbari ships also have funky artificial gravity and 
magnetic/gravitation drive with extra wizz.

> which carry thir gate with them a la Traveller. The RPG BTW is pretty good
> but lack enough material to actually play. Item list consists of guns and
> comm units etc but the referee can pick stuff up from the series. Did you
> know that B5 is only available in US due to some contractual bullshit (I
> had my girlfriend pick up a copy in San Fransisco but otherwise Europeans
> are out of luck).
Apparently Titan books have got the rights to publish the book in the uk 
and will do so when they get things sorted out, end of june/july was one 
date I read.
Anyway you've got enough with the series to do the whole thing with 
traveller why bother getting another sci-fi game (:-))))).
P.S. has anyone tried to hack around with FF&S to produce B5 ships, all 
you need to do is change the drive system, weapons, communication 
systems, tech level artificial grvaity discovered at....Actually this 
does sound like quite a bit of work but the game and tell us if its any 
good.

mark wilkin

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 19:26:18 +0100 (BST)
From: "mark.wilkin" <aa4mwi@zen.sunderland.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1307

> 
> Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 09:48:27 +0100
> From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
> Subject: Re: B5 jumptech
> 
> >Thanks for the info, I am far from being an expert on StarTrek and B5
> >technology. I got the impression that Babylon5 jump gates open a
> >wormhole to another jumpgate, much like the Wormhole in DS9, allowing
> >almost instant movement over vast areas of space.
> 
> Hyperspace in B5 is traversed with normal reaction engines but due to
> babble-this-handwave-that hard to navigate. Terrans first got jumpgates
> from another race
The Centari, they sold it to humans for trinkets and tourist souvenirs :-)
(no really)
> and used their own sublight ships to cruise around but
> later they learned how to make their own gates and also gated ships; ships

Actually you need normalspace AND jumpspace engines, the actual jumpspace 
engines are small enough to fit in a small ship. But the engines which 
actually break into hyperspace (i.e. the gates) are too big to fit on 
small ships which is why they have to use the gates.
Of course Vorlons and Shadows throw two fingers to this and do whatever 
they want. Minbari ships also have funky artificial gravity and 
magnetic/gravitation drive with extra wizz.

> which carry thir gate with them a la Traveller. The RPG BTW is pretty good
> but lack enough material to actually play. Item list consists of guns and
> comm units etc but the referee can pick stuff up from the series. Did you
> know that B5 is only available in US due to some contractual bullshit (I
> had my girlfriend pick up a copy in San Fransisco but otherwise Europeans
> are out of luck).
Apparently Titan books have got the rights to publish the book in the uk 
and will do so when they get things sorted out, end of june/july was one 
date I read.
Anyway you've got enough with the series to do the whole thing with 
traveller why bother getting another sci-fi game (:-))))).
P.S. has anyone tried to hack around with FF&S to produce B5 ships, all 
you need to do is change the drive system, weapons, communication 
systems, tech level artificial grvaity discovered at....Actually this 
does sound like quite a bit of work but the game and tell us if its any 
good.

mark wilkin

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 18:43:18 GMT
From: starwolf@sn.no (StarWolf)
Subject: Laser design

There seems to be something awfully wrong with this message. It just
won't get through... So here we go again.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------

Did any of you on the list design the TL-13 CLC on page 93 in the RC
Equipment Guide? I'm working on a spreadsheet to design small arms
lasers, and using Excel. And the above mentioned laser are being used
for checking my numbers. If possible I would like to see a complete
worksheet.

BTW: In the process of the design I found an grevious error I had made
with starship lasers. If any of you are using my laser design from
HIWG Document 142.13, you'll have to scrap all the non-grav focusing
lasers. They have too small Focal Arrays. Sorry. I'll make new designs
to compensate for this. A new version of the document will be found in
my FTP archive to Friday.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Myhre                 |"Never worry about theory as long as the=20
http://home.sn.no/~starwolf | machinery does what it's supposed to do."
Universal Internet          |
            Number: 127772  |                  -- R. A. Heinlein

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 21:01:44 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Winmail.dat

>I would also appreciate knowing why some people's mail who post to my
>lists have that annoying winmail.dat attachment..

Look at Survival Margin, and TNE. Could it be that the attachments are
really the first manifestation of Virus on Terra? Thank goodness I'm using
a non-standard machine (Mac). Quick, all you PC owners. Smash your machines
before they destroy the world and convert to MacOS and dig out all those
old Ataris, Amigas even ZX-81s... Keep the flame! ;-)

<Hysteria off>



- --------------- Dom Mooney (dom@cybergoths.u-net.com)---------------
"The fall of Empire, Gentlemen, is a massive thing, however, and not easily
fought. It is dictated by a rising bureaucracy, a receding initiative, a
freezing of caste, a damming of curiousity - a hundred other factors."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Hari Seldon - Azimov's "Foundation"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 21:33:59 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Ship economics -- fuel consumption

Kenneth wrote:

>Wasn't the official rule that the amount of fuel it takes to initiate
>a jump the same--no matter what actual jump a ship was making?

I think it changed for MT.. I'd have to go and read my old rules to check
this. However, if you read the CT adventure Twilight's Peak, one of the
reasons that the Empress Nicholle (the player's A2 Far Trader with
knackered J Drives) is not very economic is that it uses a full tank of J
fuel to do a Jump 1. Personally, I've always stuck with varying J-Fuel use.
It allows nice things like hit and run raiding in High Guard.

- --------------- Dom Mooney (dom@cybergoths.u-net.com)---------------
"The fall of Empire, Gentlemen, is a massive thing, however, and not easily
fought. It is dictated by a rising bureaucracy, a receding initiative, a
freezing of caste, a damming of curiousity - a hundred other factors."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Hari Seldon - Azimov's "Foundation"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 15:04:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Speed of Light: Time Dialation

   Hi.

> Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 14:09:22 +1000 (EST)
> From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>

> Can anyone tell me how I would figure out the slowing down of time as I
> approach the Speed Of Light?  

   Sure.  To find the tau factor, the factor by which time is dialated,
   take the cosine of the arcsine of (v/c), where v is your speed, and c
   is the speed of light.

   tau = cos(asin(v/c))

> Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 22:55:52 -0600
> From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>

>	The "tau factor" is used for both time and length contraction, and mass
> increase, and is equal to (1-v^2/c^2). So in your case, the factor is
> 0.75==>750 years would have passed.

   No.  You're close though.  Tau = SQRT(1 - (v/c)^2) is the equivalent
   of the equation I just posted above.  You had forgotten the square root.

> Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 16:33:56 +1000 (EST)
> From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>

> So what your saying is that for every 1000 Earth years I travel at 50% the
> speed of light, 750 years pass on the ship.  Correct?  This does not sound
> right - but hey, I aint a Physicist either, nor am i a Heretic.

   Not quite right; take the square root of 0.75, or 0.87, which means
   that 870 years pass on board the ship.

   I'm no heretic... but I am a physicist! 8^)

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 12:04:07 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Future History Revisionism

>Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 21:48:26 -0800
>From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)

>Don't hold your breath waiting for this to happen. I tried to explain away
>the TL 14 vacc suits in CSC as artifacts from a contemporary TL 14 system.
>Then Emperor's Arsenal states TL 15 is "maximum known Second Imperium
>technology".  I don't even bother trying to rationalize this stuff anymore.

Have you tried telling Greg Porter where he went wrong?  I do not have the
books handy, so I could not quote chapter and verse, but since he is the
source of both of these statements, we might want to stop it at the source.
 He can be reached, and is quite open to suggestions, at btrc@aol.com.

We also might want to start work on a TML Traveller Writer's Guide, that
covers the basic ideas of the system.  For example, the canonical list of
important dates, the size of the empire in worlds at various times, major
contacts, major technologies, what the average tech level is, and so on.  I
would shoot for 5-10 terse pages, and hope that is sufficient.

I know what you mean about the lack of consistency, though.

I recently started work on ISDS, the idiot simple ship design system, that
should let one design a reasonable ship in 10-15 minutes with no prior
experience, by simply doing as much as possible in terms of hull fractions,
and starting with the desired cargo or weapons loadout, and working
backwards.  I was just terribly frustrated when I tried to figure out which
worlds had working starports and could build ships.  We need those economic
rules.

Hopefully, I will get my subsector mapper and new world generation rules
done soon, so that I have at least one finished project.  (I am just
stating outright that a certain minimum population is needed for a given
tech level, and that you may add in any world within a certain jump
distance.  I am also just deleting any world with less than 4 million
people, unless it is a recent colony, as that is not terribly viable over
the long term.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1308
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, May 12 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1309



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: MAJOR PROBLEM WITH QSDS/FFS
Re: Welcome to VilaniWorld!
Re: Winmail.dat
RE: Open fire - All Canons
Re: Canon
The Imperial Army (LONG)
Re(2): Fifth Element
Re: Speed of Light.
Re: [T97#1304] Traveller Chat
Re: [T97#1304] Traveller Language Tables Online
Re: [Off topic] Games shops in New York, USA
Re: [T97#1304] A few comments on Milieu 0
Random thought that might affect commerce rules...
Speed of Light
A plea for canonization (was Future History Revisionism)
Re: Contact: Sayat

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 21:09:26 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: MAJOR PROBLEM WITH QSDS/FFS

On Mon, 12 May 1997, Paul Walker wrote:

> I think there needs to be some MAJOR rethinking regarding the surface area
> requirements of the external grapples.  Take this example from QSDS...
> 
I have noticed this, but my problem is perhaps a more extreme one

> 
> A 10 ton External Grapple requires 441 sq meters...
> 
My question is "What about to ships of approximate same size grappling
on to each other?"

> The 10-ton vessel has a length (as a sphere) of 7 meters.  Now, let's add a
> meter and a half to each side of the grapple to give room for any extra
> fittings, hoses, or other items that might need to be there.  Now we hav 10
> meters.  Allowing for a square attachment area, that is 100 square meters.
> What is QSDS doing with the additional 341 sq. meters??????

This gets even worse as you go over the 100Std limit. 

[FF&S stuff snipped] 
> I have a solution. :)

> 
> For hulls under 100 Sdt (which is what we are really talking about), the
> surface area required is 1.2 times the "footprint" of the carried craft.
> The "footprint" of the carried craft, then, is the volume divided by 3.5m.
> This gives a result of square meters.  The 3.5 meters is used to assume that
> the carried craft is a single "deck."  Take the height away and all you have
> is length and width which is what attaches to the hull of the "Mother Ship."
> The 1.2 multiplier allows for some space around the craft.  Even 2 times the
> "footprint" would be an improvement over what we have now.
> 
I see what you are talking about, but I would like a somewhat different
approach. Why don't we say that in order for a ship to grapple another
ship surface area equal to say 40% of the grappled ships volume in
square meters must be used inorder to properly hold the ship.

This would give 
       10 Std           56 sq.m
       20 Std          112 sq.m
       30 Std          168 sq.m
      100 Std          560 sq.m
      600 Std         3360 sq.m 

I would then also allow for the surface requirement (at least for
two vessels both above the 100Std ton limit) to be distributed with
a 70 to 30 percent between the two vessels. This means that a 
5000Std vessel grappling a 600Std vessels would have a grapple 
surface of 2352sq.meters while the 600Std vessel must have a 
1008sq meter of grapple surface.

[Tables of grapples snipped} 
> 
> Well, after glancing over the above, I think my grapples in the short future
> will be FFS grapples and I'll pay full price.  Just have to remember to make
> those cmall craft Boxes, Spheres, or Dome/Discs!!!!

I really don't see why a ship grappling another ship has to grapple on to
such large areas. All you need is some strong cables, hook them on the
ship and pull it onto a appropriate area. Why do the grappled ship have to
lie with its belly toward the mother ship?
> 
> Somebody with the ability to fix this please look at it!!!
> 
>     Paul {tiger}
>      tiger@goldinc.com
>      http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger
> 
Agreed!!!

Tommy Grav                  tommy.grav@astro.uio.no    
Institute of Astrophysics   http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/
University in Oslo          "If you value your lives, be somwhere 
Norway                       else!" - Ambassador Delenn B5 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 97 20:50 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Welcome to VilaniWorld!

In-Reply-To: <970429.040434.3h1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>

<< Check out the "Dream Park" books by Niven, Pournelle, and Barnes. There
are two or three, and the first is titled " Dream Park" (in the US
anyway). >>

And the game by R Talsorian.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 12:58:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Ayers <mark@text.bbic.com>
Subject: Re: Winmail.dat

On Sun, 11 May 1997, SD Mooney wrote:
> >I would also appreciate knowing why some people's mail who post to my
> >lists have that annoying winmail.dat attachment..
> 
> Look at Survival Margin, and TNE. Could it be that the attachments are
> really the first manifestation of Virus on Terra? Thank goodness I'm using
> a non-standard machine (Mac). Quick, all you PC owners. Smash your machines
> before they destroy the world and convert to MacOS and dig out all those
> old Ataris, Amigas even ZX-81s... Keep the flame! ;-)
> <Hysteria off>

I got the system fast enough to keep VIRUS from imprinting itself on the
chips. All I had to do was repartition, reformat, and install LINUX.

- ----------
Mark Ayers
Net Admin for the Book and Bean Internet Cafe
work: admin@bbic.com
personal: mark@bbic.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:32:15 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: RE: Open fire - All Canons

At 12:03 PM 5/12/97 -0500, K.C. Komosky wrote:

>	Exactly. And of course, I would never presume to tell someone how they can 
>or can't play Traveller. But, just don't come to ME and call it Traveller.

The problem here is that we have two branches of Traveller canon.. the
setting and the rules.  The rules have been twisted so many times its
ceased to be funny.  Even not counting the 4.5 editions of the game we've
gone through, minor changes in the game itself have caused more headaches
as players and referees tried to keep up with the changing realities around
them.

Can your ship's drive be used as a weapon?  No (CT) Yes (HG 1st ed) No (HG
2nd ed) Maybe (everything after)

My personal favorite remains MegaTraveller, simply because I found that to
be the best total package for the type of games that I run.

Then there is the setting canon.  Traveller has a history as richly
detailed as any in gaming, with the exception of RuneQuests Glorantha.
There was a time in my life when I could name more Emperors than Presidents
(unfortunantly, that period was High School, where my encyclopedic
knowledge of the Third Imperium was sadly undervalued.)

I *like* the Traveller backround.  I object to poorly thought out changes
to it, such as the Rule of Man reaching TL 15.  

Now to my shocking admission:  I'm running Traveller using Greg Porter's
excellent CORPS rules.  The campaign is going to be a CT fanatic's wet
dream: crewing a Free Trader in 1105, in the Spinward Marches.  I'm going
to use Traveller rules for spacecraft and worlds, some variant of the trade
rules, but the characters and action will not be strictly Traveller.

Does this make me a heretic?  I'm just sick and tired off waiting for a
playable system to come from IG, and even KBv2.0 doesn't make enough fixes
to make the game playable for me.

I'm wondering how many of us actually play strictly canonical (rules and
backround) Traveller?  Many of us date back to when the Imperium was a
one-line throwaway comment in Book 4's introduction, we've seen the growth
of the Imperium, and the rules.. does anybody think that the level of
detail is to great?  How about rules, what percentage of your game
mechanics are home brewed?

Just some thoughts.. I'd be interested in your comments 

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|   about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|   Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|     -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin" |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 15:52:07 -0700
From: Shade <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: Canon

>> There is no Traveller canon!!!!

	No, I'm afraid there is.  I just looked through Path of Tears, 
the Rebellion sourcebook, Milieu 0, and the Library Data books from the 
old set.
	Amazingly enough, I have found little to no game rules in any of 
these books.  This would, shockingly enough, imply that were printed for 
a different reason.  I propose that this purpose is none other than 
putting forth a unified future history ( although there are discrepancies 
, intentional or otherwise ( but then again, I have two British history 
books that dont agree with each other either )).  This is canonical 
material, else there would be no point in printing it ( other than making 
money :) ).
	If there is no canonical history and it can be changed at whim, 
someone needs to contact me with a refund check for these books which 
have no purpose. :)
	Simply put, T4 needs to stick with the accepted future history or 
get out of the future history business altogether.  I agree with the 
poster who stated that saying the 2I made it to TL 15, was akin to saying 
the Roman Empire had a few types of small arms.  This makes no sense.

John
- -- 
"Disco still sucks!!!"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:43:18 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: The Imperial Army (LONG)

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In light of the recent discussions on the organization of the Imperial Army, I thought I would take the time to present how it works in my version of Traveller reality.

For purposes of examining the Army as a mature force, and since it's where my campaign is set, the example we will be looking at is the Lunion Subsector of the Spinward Marches in 1105.  To start at the top, we have:

ARMY SUPREME COMMAND (Capital/Core)

This is the highest command authority for the Imperial Army.  This command is concerned with the long range planning and defense of the entire Imperium.  This unit organizes all R&D, mass equipment upgrades, and changes in Army doctrine and regulations.  It has little say in the day-to-day managing of line units; in fact it controls only one unit directly: The Imperial Guard.

DOMAIN COMMAND: DENEB (Depot/Deneb)

Even though the Domain of Deneb does not have an archduke in 1105, the Army maintains a level of command for the purpose of strategic planning "behind the claw."  Officers assigned here have a better focus on the problems and threats facing their area of operations.

Deneb Command also oversees the allocation of Imperial funds to the Sector forces.  Many worlds in the Imperial Core do not bother with extensive military development, and pay into a general fund rather than raising units that are three years from the border in the first place.  The Supreme Command allocates this money as block grants to the domains, who use it to fund projects of local need.  Many times, this money is passed down the line with no strings attached.  This is generally the case in Deneb, due to the wildly varying threats the region faces.

Domain level commands control a small group of elite troops, rarely more than a division, who act as a "fire brigade" for the command.  Since this is traditionally the Marine mission, there is a great deal of friction over these unit's existence.

SPINWARD MARCHES HIGH COMMAND (Rhylanor/Rhylanor)

The sector high command is the highest level of command that directly commands regular Army units.  In a wartime situation, units leaving their home Subsector come under the control of the sector command for the duration of their transit.  Leaving this control only when the unit either returns home or is handed off to a local command for combat.  The sector command controls the reserves and logistics for the Army when it mobilizes.

The sector command also distributes funding to the Subsector Armies.  Since planning is done decades in advance, each Subsector force submits an annual update on its projected needs over the next ten years.  Budget allocations are made based on both these figures, and on the needs of the sector as a whole.

The sector command controls the strategic reserve for the sector.  This consists of all Army units out of their home Subsector and in transit, as well as all colonial forces (see below) committed to action.

LUNION ARMY HEADQUARTERS (Lunion/Lunion)

The Subsector Army is the heart of the Imperial defense.  Each Subsector crafts its force to meet its unique needs and threats.  Lunion's main threat is seen as the Sword Worlds Confederation.  Most of Lunion's planning is based around a series of scenarios concerning a SWC attack on the Spinward worlds of the Subsector.  Subsector command also gathers intelligence about enemy activities and intentions; passing these nuggets of information to Navy Intelligence in an attempt to paint a complete picture of what is happening beyond the Imperial border.

Subsector Headquarters is where the actual purchasing of equipment takes place.  Within guidelines from higher headquarters, each Subsector is pretty free to equip its forces as it likes.  This leads to some oddities, like Five Sister's small but potent Army, universally equipped with battledress and fusion weapons.  Lunion has steered a more predictable course; building fairly standard TL14-15 tank and infantry units.  As is true for most Spinward Marches commands, Lunion Army makes sure that all vehicles and personal armor are equipped with mind-shields in case of conflict with telepathic Zhodani troops.

Operationally, the Army HQ coordinates the actions of its forces, plus those assigned to it by higher command, in the defense of the Subsector.  If offensive operations are called for, Lunion forces may be seconded to the assault force at the Sector Command's discretion.

The current commander of the Lunion Army is General Oiwaeas, an Aslan from Strouden.  A 30-year veteran, Oiwaeas is a decorated veteran of the 4th Frontier War, as well as innumerable border incidents with the Sword Worlders.  Oiwaeas is much beloved by his troops as a fighting leader, and his sense of humor is legendary.  (During one incident, a Sword World commander insinuated that Oiwaeas need to go to the "cat box."  After learning from an aide what was meant by the insult, Oiwaeas made a point of dumping sand over the defeated SW officer's head, remarking "I understand this is the proper thing for a cat to do with its waste."  To this day his personal command vehicle is named CatBox.)

THE STROUDENESE ROYAL ARMY (Strouden/Lunion)

This is where the troops and tanks are found.  Strouden is a Hi-pop, Industrial world of the Lunion Subsector.  Its total population is 8.3x10^9; mostly human with a significant (6%) Aslan minority.  The planet is ruled by a constitutional monarchy.  The Grand Prince controls the various government agencies, who operate as a meritocracy.

Strouden's Planetary Defense Force has approx. 7 million soldiers active at any one time.  An additional 5 million can be found as reservists, home guards, and local militias.

10% of the Strouden Army is pledged to the Imperial Army.  These units receive TL14-15 equipment and training.  This amounts to 35 division sized units (25 Lift Infantry, 10 Grav Tank) and a smattering of specialist units (1 Rapid Interface Infantry Brigade, several battalion and smaller Civil Action, Intelligence, Heavy Engineer, etc.)

The remainder of the units are organized as the Royal Stroudenese Army.  This formidable force can field 12 Field Armies equipped to TL13 standard, along with 2 Corps equipped to TL14 (The King's Own Guards and The Landing Warders)

The local Imperial units and the RSA engage in regular wargames against one another.  The RSA maintains a training area staffed by troops who use Sword Worlds tactics and equipment for a realistic training environment; and many Imperial units, both Marine and Army have praised it for the realism of the exercises.

Although the Imperial element of Strouden's forces is answerable to the Subsector command, the local government always has the right to veto any off-world deployment.  This is a risky move, as it invites Imperial displeasure, and any world making such a stand would best be ready to present a very convincing case before the Moot.

The Imperial Army units on Strouden are fed, paid, clothed, and housed by the RSA.  The Imperium picks up the bill for the high tech equipment and training/deployment costs.  This benefits the Royal government greatly, since they get a resident force at little expense to themselves.

COLONIAL FORCES

In times of great peril, such as a major war, planetary forces may be volunteered for Imperial service.  Such forces are referred to as "Colonial Units," and are generally considered to be of a lesser quality than front-line troops.  Regardless, these troops can take a great deal of pressure of harried commanders by assuming garrison and security roles, freeing up units for the front lines.  Since these are not Imperial units, their equipment and training can vary wildly, making it hazardous to mix them with Imperial units.  During the 4th Frontier War, there was one recorded case of an Imperial Marine point-defense system firing on approaching colonials because their non-standard G-carriers were not in the fire control computer's memory.

Comments? Questions?

- --=====================_863494998==_
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- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|   about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|   Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|     -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin" |
+-------------------------------------------------+
- --=====================_863494998==_--

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 17:04:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re(2): Fifth Element

Kenneth Winland <kwinland@chass.utoronto.ca> sayeth:




>	The Fifth Element was a good (but not great) film.  However, it

>really shows Besson's influences; the Euro strips from Heavy Metal, which

>I am sure ate his brain in the 70's.  For me, this film was the animated

>embodiment of HM stories.  On that level, it was FANTASTIC.



  That Heavy Metal influence is easily traceable if you watched (and read)
the credits. A lot of the "look" of the movie was done by Moebius (sp?). It
shows strongly in the "cars" and on the Policemen, as well as Milla
Jovovich's initial, uh, clothing. In fact, if the comic book adaption (and
you know there will be one) is drawn by anyone other than Moebius I won't
bother buying it.

  Compared to what I've seen of the other SF offerings coming this summer,
Fifth Element will be hard to beat.


 Jim Kundert
  aka GypsyComet@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 17:22:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: XatoKuom@aol.com
Subject: Re: Speed of Light.

In a message dated 97-05-12 00:38:05 EDT, Solomani wrote:

<< 
 Can anyone tell me how I would figure out the slowing down of time as I
 approach the Speed Of Light?  Assuming that when I am travelling at the
 speed of light time will stop, how would I figure out how much time passed
 if I was travelling at half the speed of light and in Erath time I had
 travelled 1000 years?
  >>
Relativity mode on:

change in time = 1/(sqrt(1-(v/c)E2)*dtime
 where v = velocity of object in m/s
           c = speed of light(300E6 m/s)
           dt = non dialated time(i.e. w/o external frame of reference)

so 1/sqrt(1-(.5)E2)*(1000yrs.) = 1155yrs.

Hope this helps!

Scott Quigg(XatoKuom@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 97 17:19:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T97#1304] Traveller Chat

"mark.wilkin" <aa4mwi@zen.sunderland.ac.uk> writes...

 ::>Suz why not adverise on usenet, try the rec.games.rpg.misc group I'm sure
 ::>people on there would love to know about traveller chat.

 Another good place that people may keep an eye on, and where
 it's less likely to get lost in noise, would be
 rec.games.frp.announce.  This is a moderated group, so there's
 virtually no noise, all signal.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  Arab proverb: Put your trust in Allah, but tie your camel

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 97 17:19:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T97#1304] Traveller Language Tables Online

Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior) writes...

T::>I have uploaded a collection of Traveller language tables to
 ::><http://www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/Traveller/languages.html>

T::>Some of these are the traditional Traveller languages, such as Vilani, some
 ::>are based on samples of Traveller languages from published sources, and some
 ::>are based on statistical analysis of existing Terran languages.

T::>Enjoy.

 <SNARF target="Rob's Language Tables">

 Rob, are you on the TravLang list yet?

 </SNARF>

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  What men desire is a virgin with whorelike qualities.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 22:18:30 +0100
From: Liam McCauley <NerfHerder@Enterprise.net>
Subject: Re: [Off topic] Games shops in New York, USA

New York
- --------
Thanks to those that sent me addresses of games stores in Manhattan - looks
like I'll be popping into The Complete Strategist ("Only for a minute,
dear, honest" ;-)).  On further investigation, there seems to be little
difference between prices here and in the US (unlike other books), but I'll
probably have a bigger selection than my local shops.

Emperor's Arsenal
- -----------------
Also, thanks for the comments on Emperor's Arsenal.  I appreciate you
spending the time to write even a few words.  I've bought myself a copy,
and I agree that it's a very good product (I would say excellent if it was
$5 or so cheaper).  I can't help wishing that Greg Porter had been given
more of the T4 combat/technology stuff.  The essays and comments next to
each weapon were great (and the humour on p33, as someone else has pointed
out).  Also, the illustrations will be useful to give the players a visual
cue.

Campaign
- --------
I don't know if I've been inspired by EA, or what, but I've started writing
a T4 campaign.  I'd appreciate any comments anyone might have.

It will be episodic in nature (we have lots of people who like to referee
different games, and it takes me a long time to come up with good ideas),
and fairly mission-based, at least initially.  I am assuming that part of
the power jostling going on in the Imperium of Milieu 0 will include
inter-system spying and a limited amount of covert action.  For diplomacy's
sake, it will be discrete, deniable, and only used for important and
suitable missions.

The PCs will be agents / troubleshooters of the government of a system in
the Imperium (I will be using the Imperium very loosely - I might tighten
it up if I buy M0).  They will travel from system to system (based mostly
around their home system), occasionally being contacted by local agents who
need some job done by outside agents who are more reliable than a bunch of
hard-up Travellers in one of the bars in Starport ;-).

Their first mission will involve trying to figure out what has happened at
an archeological dig on one of the planets in their system.  Some Ancient
(or is it?) technology has been found (and gotten loose - one of
Granfather's robots perhaps), and the government want to keep it for
themselves (to be studied at a secret research base), rather than handing
it over to the Imperium.  Unfortunately, the local Imperial Navy is based
on the planet, and the commander is being very helpful - offering to ferry
the PCs and any supplies from their ship to the dig, etc.  And someone else
has found out about it (and asked those Travellers from Starport, who were
refused a job about a paragraph back, to retrieve it).  Hopefully the
players will find lots of different types of challenges, from tactical, to
diplomatic, to downright sneaky.

Anyway, if anyone has any comments...

Cheers,
Liam
- -- 
NerfHerder@Enterprise.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 97 17:19:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T97#1304] A few comments on Milieu 0

"Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com> writes...

T::>The Warrant of Restoration, set forth at pp. 83-84, has an enormous
 ::>loophole in Article 1:

T::>"Any world may, through a recognized representative, proclaim
 ::>allegiance to the Immperium, and in so doing, such world shall
 ::>become a member in the Imperium, equal in status to all other
 ::>members of the Imperium."

T::>Thus a non-member world has the power to become a member of the
 ::>Imperium just be deciding to do so -- no approval by the rest of
 ::>the Imperium, no proclamation by the Emperor, no advice and consent
 ::>of the Moot, no standards (except Calendar Compliance).

 The key here (I was the author of that portion of the Warrant -
 and most of the rest as well) is the word _recognized_.  In
 other words, some official representative of the Imperium with
 the power to do so has to agree that the representative does in
 fact have the right to speak for the prospective member.

 Also, a proclamation of allegiance is of no value if the
 allegiance is not accepted.  If the Emperor or his
 representatives don't think you're a member, you get none of
 the benefits of membership, and Article VIII makes it possible
 to say "OK, fine - but you're on your own in every way but
 name".  See my responses to your scenarios, below.

T::>Article VIII doesn't help.  It just says,

T::>"Nothwithstanding any provisions to the contrary contained in
 ::>this document or in subsequent Imperial actions, the Imperium,
 ::>for the purpose of ensuring its continued safety and stability,
 ::>reserves to itself the power to unilaterally enact changes in any
 ::>or all aspects of the relationship between itself and any member
 ::>world or citizen."

T::>Article VIII only applies to relationships between the Imperium
 ::>and worlds that are already members -- thus it does not provide
 ::>for rejection of a world's application for membership.  It does
 ::>allow the Imperium to kick a member world out, so an unwanted world
 ::>could be booted after its admission.  There may be unwanted political
 ::>fallout from doing so, of course, that would not be present if the
 ::>world were simply not admitted.

 Or, as I suggest above, without kicking them out, they can have
 the name, but not the substance.

T::>Where might this problem arise?  (1) A world far from the Imperial
 ::>sphere of influence could hear about the Imperium, join it, and then
 ::>seek protection from its non-Imperial neighbors.  The Imperium could
 ::>thus be drawn into a distant and unwanted war.  (Actually, that's not
 ::>a bad adventure hook.)

 Article VIII lets them get off the hook in this.  But yes, it's
 an adventure hook.  "We, Cleon, appreciate the expression of
 allegiance from the planet Hueiner.  As to the request for aid
 in the dispute with the planet Bhuuli, We note that the
 relationship between Hueiner and Bhulli has historically
 followed the pattern of the colonial relationship between
 Raandhimm and Ahdbol, in the vicinity of Sylea.  We note that
 this therefore appears to be an internal matter, and We see no
 compelling reason to interfere in an internal matter, as per
 the First Article of the Warrant of Restoration."

T::>(2) A group of highly developed worlds might decide to join the Imperium
 ::>en masse.  Exploitation of these worlds, after the fashion of the Zhunastu
 ::>School, would not be possible; indeed, their ability to exploit their
 ::>neighbors would be enhanced.  It would be better if they could be rejected
 ::>for membership and then surrounded by the Imperium over time.  Then
 ::>their economies could be destroyed by cutting off trade, and rebuilt as
 ::>dependent on the Imperium.

 Same thing.  The Imperium can unilaterally choose to change the
 relationship between these worlds and itself.  That change
 _can_ be a total interdiction of the worlds in question.  Or an
 imposition of crushing taxes.  "We, Cleon, take note of the
 trade practices of the member worlds of the t'Rhussit Cluster.
 As these practices, in our perception, endanger the safety of
 the Imperium as a whole, We therefore order a blockade of the
 worlds of the t'Rhussit Cluster, and impose a temporary
 restabilization tax of fifteen hundred trillion Credits per
 annum upon each world in the Cluster."

 Yes, there are some loopholes in the Warrant.  But the really
 important ones are designed to give the _Imperium_ the
 strength.  It's really quite a one-sided document.  Mostly
 because of Article VIII.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  Test question: Define "universe."  Give two examples.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 12:42:02 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Random thought that might affect commerce rules...

>From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)

Very well done!

I have been thinking along similar lines.  My current setup for my
subsector mapper has various valuable comments in it, such as clusters,
sector names, and so on, and I am thinking of adding trade routes or some
other such measure of goodness for a merchant.  Since the program already
has the data for the sector read in, this is not totally unreasonable.

(I am working on a long term project to read in the entire Imperium's data
as of Y0, and then do some Empire-wide statistics on trade, commerce, tech
level, and so on.  Talk about a busman's holiday for someone who write
econometric software...)

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 12:55:52 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Speed of Light

>Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 14:09:22 +1000 (EST)
>From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>

>Can anyone tell me how I would figure out the slowing down of time as I
>approach the Speed Of Light?

The best answer is to grab a copy of "Spacetime Physics," as it has some
really good descriptions of relativity and how to work with it.  Drop me a
line if you want the author, ISBN, and so on.

For the simple case of time one moving thing relative to a laboratory rest
frame (like in a particle accelerator), plug into

gamma = sqrt( 1- v^2/c^2)

gamma is your length contraction and time dilation factor.  For example, if
a particle is moving at 0.95c wrt me, I would see its time going as
sqrt(.0957) = 31% as fast as my own time.

Half of lightspeed gives a gamma = 0.866, so in 1000 years, your earthbound
friends would have aged 100 years, while you aged 866.  Note that the
problem is not symmetric because you accelerated.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 15:59:11 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: A plea for canonization (was Future History Revisionism)

>Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 09:30:17 -0900
>From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>

>At 09:48 PM 9/05/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>>As much as I like FF&S in concept, it is still playing fast and loose
>>>with previous Traveller "canon"...

>Oh god no... here it comes.. beware, all sensitive types read no further,
>opinionated rant follows...

Those are always fun.

>THERE IS NO TRAVELLER CANON!!!!...
[demonstrations of inconsistencies in Traveller]

BUT THERE SHOULD BE!!!!

Every time a supplement came out that was contradictory, foolish, or just
plain off the wall, I had to work hard to keep it consistent.  I put up
with that at various points by creating canon as needed, but I consider
each and every inconsistency a sign of a lack of professionalism on
someone's part.  Editor, designer, writer - someone!

Consider, any individual group can drop canon as they see fit, and nobody
should care.  When the underlying system blows its own past history on the
other hand, we all have to work a lot harder.  We have to decide whether
these jump torpedos are going to show up in future adventures, or whether
they are just an aberration.  Are there going to be more Primordial sites
out there?  Is TL16 enough better than TL15 to explain the Darrian
independence?

Every time this happens, we have to decide whether we are going to put up
with it or not, and eventually, one gets tired of it.  This is why I would
kind of like to see a commitment to canon on the part of IG.  This would
mean putting together a brief list of important facts that cannot be broken
by anyone without a clear statement that canon is breaking.  A tech 15
Vilani artifact, for example, is loathsome in the extreme under previous
canon.

Also, there is a form of canon, it is just not currently consistent.  For
example, anyone who creates a jump 7 drive has done a Traveller no-no.  The
Imperium came after a long night, and the long night took out star travel
virtually universally.  If someone changes a fact like this, then they had
best have a very good reason, and it better be carefully explained.

I made a plea a while ago, and I want to make it again - lets try to come
up with a short writer's guide.  I want something such that the typical
adventure writer, or background writer, or whatever has a prayer of not
busting something obvious, and so that those of us who are going to break
canon will do so with clear knowledge.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:46:02 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Contact: Sayat

On Mon, 12 May 1997, Mikko [iso-8859-1] Syrj=E4 wrote:

> >On Sun, 11 May 1997, David J. Golden wrote:
> >
> >The Coyns were presented way way way after the Ancients ceased to be the
> >Ancients, and Grandfather moved on to his pocket Universe.  As I said it
> >was just my impression.
> >
>=20
> =09Something just popped to my mind...
>=20
> =09Droynes (and Chirpers) have ability to develop mentally and
> =09physically given right kind of outside stimulus (like Coyns).
> =09So, is it possible to have similar, but superior, ritual that
> =09can transform ordinary Droyne to Ancient? Perhaps casting
> =09ritual given by Grandfather is just downgraded version of
> =09something that originally made Ancients some 300000 years ago.

Good idea, but does not fit the Droyne Character.  Droynes are docile.
They were the Ancients only by association.  ALL Ancient artifacts,
history and super-tech came from 1 Droyne, yop thats it, 1 droyne only,
who was a freak of nature.  Eventually he genetically manipulated
20 children to help him, but without him there would be no Ancient sites,
technology or history.  Humanity would have been the first to the star's,
they would have discovered the Droyne who never developed naturally beyond
the feudal stage.  Grandfather drove them to achieve.

Michael




Drop the question of what tomorrow may bring and count as profit every day =
that Fate allows you
Horace

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1309
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, May 13 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1310



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Future History Revisionism
ANCIENT Grandfather
RE: Open fire - All Canons
Re: The Fifth Element
Grandfather and the Elder Gods -- er -- Hivers
Re: A few comments on Milieu 0
Crisis on Infinite Earth
Open fire - AT All Canon
Canon, there ain't no stinking Canon!
Re: Speed of Light
RE: Future History Revisionism
Re: The Fifth Element
Re: A plea for canonization (was Future History Revisionism)
A Question of Length: Post or WWW?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 18:41:00 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Future History Revisionism

> OK, I'm sick of hearing what is canon and what isn't. Perhaps we should try
> to define what canon is... is it classic? Great, I'll just start designing
> my jump torpedoes. Is it Megatrav? Fine, I always liked fusion drives. Is
> it TNE, great, I have FFS, and most of the errata, and quite a few
> spreadsheets, and a few weeks to spare.

I wasn't going to respond to this post, but when I saw this 
paragraph, I nearly fell out of my chair.

That's another reason why I subscribe to this list.  Sometimes I get 
a really, really good laugh.

...a few weeks to spare.  That still cracks me up.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:54:50 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: ANCIENT Grandfather

On Mon, 12 May 1997, K.C. Komosky wrote:

I hope people wont mind me changing the subject of this interesting
thread.


> >Main next cool question:  How come Grandfather DIDN'T have anything to do
> >with the Aslan, Hiver, or K'kree?  I can't think of any mention whatsoever
> >of his fooling around with them, or even of Ancient artifacts in their
> >territories.  What's the story with *this*, eh?  And why are the Templars
> >so silent on the whole matter?
> >
> >Kenji
> >kenji@accessone.com
> 
> 
> 	This is pure conjecture, but from a game design perspective I think it was 
> because Marc Miller et al didn't want the Ancients to be behind EVERYTHING, 
> just most things. I mean I'm sure its completely possible for at least a 
> few species to evolve and develop jump drive without Yaskoydray's 
> influence.
> 
> 	Now the real questions is - the Coynes were introduced into Droyne society 
> something like ~-50,000. This was well after the Ancient period, but long 
> before the Aslan, Hivers or K'kree developed jump drive. What gives?

Your being one sided.  Droynes exist in an area greater then the Imperium
at its height combined with all the other Empire's.  Who knows how far
Grandfather spread the Droyne seed.  Which implies he knew about the
Hive/Aslan etc.  

 Read my other post, what I basically said was that the only time
Grandfather seemed to interfere with other races was when he needed
asisstents for his work.  I can only assume Humans were the only ones that
had any potential in this area and/or the other races were not sentinent
yet.





Drop the question of what tomorrow may bring and count as profit every day that Fate allows you
Horace

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 19:29:58 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: RE: Open fire - All Canons

> Does this make me a heretic?  I'm just sick and tired off waiting for a
> playable system to come from IG, and even KBv2.0 doesn't make enough fixes
> to make the game playable for me.

This is not a sales pitch--just curiosity.  I like to keep up on what 
people think of KBv2.0.

What doesn't KBv2.0 fix?

> I'm wondering how many of us actually play strictly canonical (rules and
> backround) Traveller?  Many of us date back to when the Imperium was a
> one-line throwaway comment in Book 4's introduction, we've seen the growth
> of the Imperium, and the rules.. does anybody think that the level of
> detail is to great?  How about rules, what percentage of your game
> mechanics are home brewed?

I play pretty close to the rules.  This is a matter time for me.  The 
system I used before T4 came out was a home brew version of TNE.  
Actually, it was TNE ideas and game mechanics using the MT task 
system.  I've still got it if this sounds interesting to anyone.

When ever you have a House system you are forever tweaking the thing. 
 It made for a lot of out of game work for me.

Since, I have switched to the T4 rules pretty much as is.  I'll still 
tweak something that I can't live with--like the task system, but I 
fixed it keeping the same tradition of the original system in mind.

As we continue our campaign, I tend to tweak little things here and 
there, but basically, we're playing cannon T4.

It is nice now to let IG do the work, like they are supposed to.  I 
can look up a rule instead of having to research, invent, and create 
a new rule with my House system when we stubled upon something in our 
game that was new.  Now, I just look it up in the book and point to 
it.

I also don't have a problem using things from other editions of 
Traveller.  For example, I've been shopping for a Traveller space 
combat system.  After looking at all of those official versions that 
have been created, I think I'm about to decide on Brilliant Lances.

Before, I would have put all the time in to convert BL to the T4 
rules, but now, I don't think I'll do that.  I think I'll just use it 
as is and keep changes to a minimum.  

Kenneth.
> 
> Just some thoughts.. I'd be interested in your comments 
> 
> --
> +-------------------------------------------------+
> |   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
> |      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
> |   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
> |         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
> |*************************************************|
> |   "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
> |   about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
> |   Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
> |     -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin" |
> +-------------------------------------------------+
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 18:40:59 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: The Fifth Element

> I can see that you do rate movies harshly. I'd give it a 4. If I was 
> feeling more generous, maaaybe a 4.5.

I generally rate movies like this:

No stars                 One of the worst movies to ever wrinkle the 
                               back of your shirt.

1 Star                      A pretty poor movie.

2 Stars                    A serviceable movie if you are in the mood 
                                for it, but if you miss it, then no 
                                 big deal.

3 Stars                     A typical good movie--not great, mind 
                                 you, but a standard good movie.

4 Stars                     An incredible movie!  One that you will 
                                 like and talk about for years.

5 Stars                      One of the best movies you've ever seen.


And so, I give the Fifth Element 3 stars.  If you are using this 
scale, then your 4 stars would mean that you really, really endorse 
it.

> <snipple of actress stuff which I totally agree with>

God, I think I saw the perfect woman.  Not by looks (which were 
pretty good), but by her personality.  This woman will do something 
for you.  Trust me.


> If you're talking about the scene I think you're talking about, I guess 
> it was just done as a humourous interlude. I agree that it was 
> superfluous, tho'.

I am, and I thought it wasn't that funny.  I was bored by it.  As a 
matter of fact, if I had done the movie, I would have cut out the 
"Artist Formerly Known as Prince" character all together.  

Yeah, he was funny, but the film had some other funny moments without 
him, and he really did nothing for the story.


> That's true. I think the last third of the movie or so could have used a 
> little more editing... 
> 
> I mean, the opening scene was just incredible! It was a perfect setup for 
> the rest of the movie.

I agree.  I liked the first half of the movie.  Then it got kinda 
stupid.  It was like they had a script, then had somebody else 
re-write part of it--which they probably did.

The second half of the film just didn't fit with the beginning.


> Stargate meets Judge Dredd! Thats *good* Kenneth. To qualify that, I 
> think this movie was better than both of those movies.

It was.

> I see your point, but I would rate The 5th Element higher than ID4. 
> Better performances, better plot, no "USA-rules/Aliens sux" claptrap.

True points.

> BTW, when you say this movie is no "Aliens" I hope you're just referring 
> to the first one. ;-)

Ooops!  For a moment there, I thought we were agreeing on a lot of 
topics.  It sounds like you didn't like Aliens (not Alien)--the 
second movie.  That was an action movie (you were right about the 
first one being a suspense film), and I consider Aliens one of the 
best movies I've ever seen.

I love that film, and I gave it 5 stars.  I can't believe you didn't 
like the second Alien film.  Not only was it one of the best SciFi 
films I've ever seen, it is also one of the best films I've ever 
seen--period.

I see films like that one and it just humbles me.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 18:08:40 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Grandfather and the Elder Gods -- er -- Hivers

>From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
>Subject: Re: Contact: Sayat

>Why he transplanted humans everywhere I cant say.  I get the impression

I think that he was using the humans in his research and stuff, and put them wherever he 
had facilities.  Grandfather did think big.  I wonder how many minor human races the 
Zhodani core expeditions have found.  

>Main next cool question:  How come Grandfather DIDN'T have anything to do
>with the Aslan, Hiver, or K'kree?  I can't think of any mention whatsoever
>of his fooling around with them, or even of Ancient artifacts in their
>territories.  What's the story with *this*, eh?  And why are the Templars
>so silent on the whole matter?

It could be that Grandfather is just a Hiver manipulation.  Maybe the Hivers actually 
did all the stuff Grandfather is said to have done, and then blamed Grandfather.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 18:13:41 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Re: A few comments on Milieu 0

>From: Brett Fishburne <bfish@atlantech.net>

At 10:47 AM 5/11/97 -0700, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
<snip>
>>Thus a non-member world has the power to become a member of the
>>Imperium just be deciding to do so -- no approval by the rest of

>How about someone requesting admission for worlds which would prefer not to
>be admitted?  There doesn't seem to be any check for concurence of the world
>government itself...Just a thought.  Seems like a good plan for a game
>scenario (or a way to put a couple of worlds a war).

Good point:  all it takes for admission is the statement of a "recognized 
representative" -- but recognized by whom?  The Imperium or the world or both?  It 
should be both, of course, but it's wide open to abuse.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 14:43:00 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Crisis on Infinite Earth

Warning - I am about to enter rant mode - prepare yourself.

- ---

Hmmm, after the recent discussion on "canon" of Traveller, and my normal
day to day observations of the list, I am getting worried.  I believe that  
Traveller is heading the way of Dungeons and Dragons.  It seems more and
more things are being created within Traveller which are more suited for a
a Fantasy game then a Sci-Fi game.  There's a lot of hand waving on many
issues, where things are explained as "it just works".

First thing on my Hit List is the whole Jump system, most already know
what my views are concerning this.

Second, is the whole "Virus" episode.  Can't say I really liked this idea
- - "oh no, not another dark age."  Also, is this sort of lifeform even
plausiable?

Also a few other niggling things, like fusion drives and Heplar's.

I am probably alone in this, but Traveller seems to be heading the same
way as a lot of modern sci-fi generally is (including shows like Trek and
b5) - its just plain fantasy, no basis in any science whatsoever.  The
greatest, and I dare say only appeal to me of Traveller was its
foundation in science.  I just wanted to know if anyone else felt the same
way?

I would much rather an Arthur C. Clarke style Traveller Universe then an
ID4 styled one.  Reality check time.



c'ya hate to be ya,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


A learned man is an idler who kills time by study

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 97 22:13:45 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Open fire - AT All Canon

On 05/12/97 at 01:32 PM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> said:

> I'm wondering how many of us actually play strictly canonical (rules and
> backround) Traveller?  Many of us date back to when the Imperium was a
> one-line throwaway comment in Book 4's introduction, we've seen the
> growth of the Imperium, and the rules.. does anybody think that the level
> of detail is to great?  How about rules, what percentage of your game
> mechanics are home brewed?

Does anyone NOT know my stance on all the above? ;->

Background:  I think the level of insistance that the published background
is the "one true background" is what is too great.  I enjoyed watching the
GDW Imperium develop, I still remember the kick I got out of "War!" on the
cover of the Journal, but that was always GDW's universe..not mine.  My
Imperium was never exactly like their Imperium, my "5th Frontier War"
wasn't their "5th Frontier War", and mine was every bit as validly
Traveller as their's.  That's my point!

You don't really mean to say that any deviation from published details
makes a game non-Traveller do you?  There *are* some people here that give
me that impression.

Rules:  Who knows!  Shoot, as far as I'm concerned *all* my
mechanics are home-brewed..even the ones I pull right out of some book *I*
bought, ;-> I'm the one that decided to use them after all. Seriously, I'd
guess it's about 50/50, but the 50% that come out of some Traveller book
could be any version from CT to the present.  


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 97 21:34:59 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Canon, there ain't no stinking Canon!

On 05/12/97 at 12:36 AM,  "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca> said:

> > THERE IS NO TRAVELLER CANON!!!!

Geeze!  I've got to say something about this!

There is NO Traveller canon!

> 	Well, now I shall call upon the Grand Inquisitor to force you to recant 
> your heresies. May Strephon have mercy on your soul.

Yeah sure, when your role model is a torturer it says a lot. ;->

> 	But seriously, SURE there is a Traveller canon. Look, I have a whole
> pile  of CT books and modules lying around. And you know what, I still
> get a hell  of a lot of use out of 'em. And, IG and MM willing, I will
> still be able to  use them for a long time to come.

Sorry, K.C., that's not canon.  Canon is LAW.  What you are
describing are game books and modules, at most *suggested* rules of
behavior.  Over the past 20 years I've bought lots of those books, and I
never found one LAW in any of them...lot's of rules, no laws.

Marc, Loren, nor Frank never dropped by to bless or damn my games. They
never required an orthodoxy test when I laid my money down. They never
threatened to take back their books if I didn't follow their rules.  ;->

> 	So I shall freely identify myself, not as a heretic, but as a True 
> Believer in the Traveller Orthodoxy. I implore IG to be as consistent as 
> reasonably possible with previously published material. Don't invalidate
> my  CT books while I'm playing T4!

Do you think I don't use my CT books?  I use them as much as I use my MT or
TNE books.  More than my T4 books..right now, but that could change.  What
*I* mainly use is my imagination and judgment applied to ANY source of
information.  I create my universes using as much or as little of the
material found in any book or module as *I* decide...period!  Newer
versions don't invalidate older versions, they are just newer versions. 
The way I see things, when things don't fit together it's *your* job to
work it all out.

> 	And to all you heretics out there, who seem willing to throw out the
> canon  at a moment's notice - after throwing out so much, at what  point
> are you  no longer playing Traveller?

K.C., you don't need some rulebook's validation to know when you're playing
Traveller...do you?  ;->

When I play in a universe with Romulans, Klingons, warp drive, transporters
and a Federation I'm probably playing Startrek..even if I'm uesing stock
Traveller rules.  When I run a game in a ficton with "Evil Empires", heavy
breathers, magical "forces", and 'cross the universe in a day hyperdrives'
it's either Star Wars or B5. OTOH, when the universe is set in a future
that has stl
communications, has 'cut off from the universe several day long' ftl
transportation, attempts to explain it's technology in realistic terms, and
has no magic...I call it Traveller.

Notice, I didn't mention the *specific* technologies or background at all? 
I don't think either is required for a game to be
Traveller, and that's what makes me a heretic.

You do realize that to be a heretic you have to be a believer, don't you? 
If I *rejected* all things black and red, I wouldn't be here, nor would I
be interested in discussing any of these issues.  I do agree with, and use,
many Traveller traditions.  I think games work better with internally
consistent rules, and changes need to be well thought out before being
implemented.  I'm not a libertine, but I do believe in free, enlightened,
choice.

What I don't believe in is "the one true way" to Traveller.  I don't
believe in forcing anyone to play the game the "one right way", for there
are many paths to enlightenment...oops wrong religion. ;->

So KC, I propose, you play your way, I'll play it mine, and everyone else
can do the same.  You can be as orthodox as you like, I can be as heretical
as I like, and everyone else can decide for themselves. Deal?


Eris,
    the Heretic
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 14:49:41 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Speed of Light

On Mon, 12 May 1997, Scott Ellsworth wrote:

> Half of lightspeed gives a gamma = 0.866, so in 1000 years, your earthbound
> friends would have aged 100 years, while you aged 866.  Note that the
> problem is not symmetric because you accelerated.

So at 99% the speed of light we are looking at for every 1000 years on
earth, the spacebound occupents age aprox. 430 years?

At the speed of light they would not age at all (time stops).

Beyond the Speed of Light barrier I would move backwards in time (?)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 00:02:49 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: RE: Future History Revisionism

K.C. Komosky writes: 

>> THERE IS NO TRAVELLER CANON!!!!
>
>        Well, now I shall call upon the Grand Inquisitor to force you to recant 
>your heresies. May Strephon have mercy on your soul.

   It is up to Marc Miller to enforce canon on IG, since he has taken on
the task of personally reviewing each chapter of new publications.  If
he choses not to, so be it.  That's where we get into a discussion of
'Canon' (what is accepted by the vast majority of Traveller players as
correct or "reality") vs. canon (what the current publisher says is
correct or "reality").  Jump drives are Canon, while being able to
calculate the direction of jump depending upon how a ship entered jump
space was canon (under TNE).  The Second Imperium is Canon, while a max
TL of 15 for the Second Imperium is canon (for now under T4).

>        But seriously, SURE there is a Traveller canon. Look, I have a whole pile 
>of CT books and modules lying around. And you know what, I still get a hell 
>of a lot of use out of 'em. And, IG and MM willing, I will still be able to 
>use them for a long time to come.

   My heirarchy of canon goes something like this:

1) Background material generated by GDW, including items that appeared
in JTAS or Challenge

2) Background material generated by DGP, including items that appeared
in Traveller Digest (up to MT Journal #3)

3) Background material by other "Approved for Use With Traveller"
sources, or other officially recognised publications, including T4 and
Traveller Chronicle

4) Background material generated by HIWG, or other similar fan
organizations

5) Background material published in non-officially approved sources
(fanzines, White Dwarf, etc.)

6) Background material posted here, the WWW, etc.

   If DPG produced something in 1989 that contradicts a GDW publication
(say something that appears in "Solomani and Aslan" that goes against
something in "Alien Module 6: Solomani") the GDW publication takes
prescedent.  There is of course some flexibility here.  If GDW published
two items in contradiction to each other and one of the lesser sources
fixes the problem, I recognize the fix.  If something appears in *any*
non-GDW source that totally blows away game balance but for some reason
wasn't contradicted by GDW (i.e. Paranoia Press' ringworlds, rosettes,
etc. in The Beyond), I ignore it as non-canon. 

   In the case of T4's TL 15 Second Imperium, or TL 14 vacc suits, I
cheerfully ignore them.

>        So I shall freely identify myself, not as a heretic, but as a True 
>Believer in the Traveller Orthodoxy. I implore IG to be as consistent as 
>reasonably possible with previously published material. Don't invalidate my 
>CT books while I'm playing T4!

   IG is in serious danger in many people's books of becoming
non-Canon.  I need not remind everyone (especially fans of TNE) what
happens when canon isn't Canon. 

>        And to all you heretics out there, who seem willing to throw out the canon 
>at a moment's notice - after throwing out so much, at what  point are you 
>no longer playing Traveller?

   I for one did not leave Traveller, Traveller (or at least canon
Traveller, currently T4) left me.


Ethan Henry writes:

>       Well, now I shall call upon the Grand Inquisitor to force you to recant 
> your heresies. May Strephon have mercy on your soul.
> 
>       But seriously, SURE there is a Traveller canon.

One of these days, I gotta look up "canon" in the dictionary.

   According to Webster's Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the
English Language:

can.on, n.  1. an ecclesiastical rule or law enacted by a council or
other competent authority and, in the Roman Catholic Church, approved by
the Pope.  2. the body of ecclesiastical law.  3. the body of rules,
principles, or standards accepted as axiomatic and universally binding
in a field of study or art: "the Neoclassical canon".  4. a fundamental
principle or general rule: "He violated the canons of good behavior". 
5. a standard; criterion: "He was interested in the canons of taste." 
6. the books of the Bible recognized by any Christian church as genuine
and inspired.  7. any officially recognized set of sacred books.  8. any
comprehensive list of books within a field.  9. the works of an author
which have been accepted as authentic: "There are 37 plays in the
Shakespeare canon".

   Some additional definitions that aren't relevant, but you get the
idea...

>There is, however, a written history of space and humaniti, which
>is accepted in all version of Traveller. The three Imperia, the seven
>major races, the three "major" branches of humaniti, the various "minor"
>races. the (rough) layout of space, etc. 

   This is Canon (note the big 'C').

>Now, when you go and say "the maximum TL reached by the Rule of Man
>was TL 15", this, uh, kind of buggers things up. It really plays
>with the written, descriptive history of the Imperium. It would be
>like a modern historian saying "Yeah, the Romans had a large assortment
>of small firearms. No big deal."

   Good analogy.  So why the basic contradiction?  Conspiracy theorists
will tell you that it is all a plot by IG and Marc Miller to make the
previous GDW material non-canon, and eventually non-Canon.  This in turn
forces collectors and Traveller fans to buy T4 products to keep up with
canon/Canon.  If only IG was that organized...

>My complaint about "canon" was really pretty much about meson guns in
>particular, which operated in the same basic manner in CT, MT and TNE.
>There's also a number of written descriptions of their "operating principles"
>which describe how they work and that they're very effective. T4 has
>gone and basically thrown that all out - in that one category. I consider
>this effective castration of meson guns (who was talking about Freud before?)
>to be a lot more severe than swapping types of m-drives around. If 
>T4 is really supposed to be set in the same universe as CT, MT and TNE,
>than the rules it describes are wrong, because the universe didn't work
>that way yesterday. (Some of the rules, not all of them).

   What about Fusion Plus?  Now *that* flies in the face of Canon as
well.  Fusion power plants are frankly *assumed* on small craft at TL 10
or so onward, but not in T4, where you have to wait until TL 12.

   My impression is that certain writers (and I'm not naming names) are
being allowed to write official material even though they have only the
vaguest understanding of Traveller Canon.  This is not the way that GDW
ran the circus.  Dave Nilsen, et al. were almost of the verge of
paranoia when it came to making sure that TNE products didn't contradict
what had come before in the way of GDW Traveller storylines.  That
careful attention to detail meant, no matter what you thought of Virus,
that TNE was both internally consistent and consistent with the material
from classic Traveller and MegaTraveller (try reading the Regency
Sourcebook, if you are lucky enough to find it, to see what I mean). 

Regards,

Harold
(rebellious Scotsman at heart)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 97 22:08:08 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: The Fifth Element

On 1997-05-12 12:40 thus spake Kenneth Bearden:

>I agree.  I liked the first half of the movie.  Then it got kinda 
>stupid.  It was like they had a script, then had somebody else 
>re-write part of it--which they probably did.
>
>The second half of the film just didn't fit with the beginning.

*sigh* The politics of Hollywood can be depressing.

>Ooops!  For a moment there, I thought we were agreeing on a lot of 
>topics.  It sounds like you didn't like Aliens (not Alien)--the 
>second movie.  That was an action movie (you were right about the 
>first one being a suspense film), and I consider Aliens one of the 
>best movies I've ever seen.
>
>I love that film, and I gave it 5 stars.  I can't believe you didn't 
>like the second Alien film.  Not only was it one of the best SciFi 
>films I've ever seen, it is also one of the best films I've ever 
>seen--period.

Oh-oh, I guess I was unclear.

I was referring to the *third* one. ;-)

Although I don't seem to be as enthusiastic about the second as you are, 
I agree that it was a great film, even though it was completely different 
from the first.

As for your dislike of "the artist formerly known as prince" character, I 
too, disliked him. I couldn't understand a word he said. But I think that 
was the point. He and that other wimp-actor were symbolic of the 
degenerative nature of stardom. The media elevates the worst of the 
genepool to stardom; heroes are found in the cab-drivers of the world.

You're quite right about that dumb scene in the middle. Totally 
unnecessary.



===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 23:11:39 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: A plea for canonization (was Future History Revisionism)

Quoth Scott Ellsworth:
> I made a plea a while ago, and I want to make it again - lets try to come
> up with a short writer's guide.  I want something such that the typical
> adventure writer, or background writer, or whatever has a prayer of not
> busting something obvious, and so that those of us who are going to break
> canon will do so with clear knowledge.

How about the "Concise History of the Third Imperium," published in the
Traveller's Digest and now available on... um... somebody's web site.
(The one that titles itself the AAB -- I think the original author of the
article is the maintainer).  If I recall correctly, he's also gone back to
add in a similar summary of the First Imperium.

And, of course, Don McKinney's Traveller Timeline is a valiant attempt to
corral all the wacky little facts and events that have been published by
GDW and licensees.  Basically, every IG author should have web access and
the will to check the sources.  :-)

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 23:16:50 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: A Question of Length: Post or WWW?

Some of the information I've been working on for the Suerrat is now ready
for public perusal and comment.  I can't recall, though, what the current
state of the list membership is with regard to digest-readers, single-
message recipients, and those with web access.

I have two files, one (7.5K) on Suerrat biology and culture, and another
(8.5K) covering their history from origins to the end of the Ziru Sirka.
What is our current TML "netiquette" regarding large files?  Should I post
them here, or put them in my webspace and merely provide a URL?

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1310
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, May 13 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1311



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Winmail.dat
Re: Speed of Light.
Re: MAJOR PROBLEM WITH QSDS/FFS
Captain, we'er surrounded, and they're all armed with canons
The Holy Traveller Canon
RE: Crisis on Infinite Earth
RE: Captain, we'er surrounded, and they're all armed with canons
[off topic] Second Law of Thermo
RE: Ship Economics - Making a buck!
Virus and falkj5t495ujg
Re: MAJOR PROBLEM WITH QSDS/FFS
Re: A Question of Length: Post or WWW?
Re: MAJOR PROBLEM WITH QSDS/FFS
Re: Geonee Post: The Llyrnians
Re: Contact: Sayat
Re: Speed of Light.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 21:50:05 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Winmail.dat

At 09:01 pm 05/11/97 +0100, you wrote:
>
>>I would also appreciate knowing why some people's mail who post to my
>>lists have that annoying winmail.dat attachment..

	You can thank Milord Bill (preferably engraved on a c- rock aimed at
Redmond). The new Microsoft mail programs assume that everybody in the
world is using the same programs, and attaches a binary file containing
formatting instructions. Aren't standards lovely?

>Look at Survival Margin, and TNE. Could it be that the attachments are
>really the first manifestation of Virus on Terra? Thank goodness I'm using
>a non-standard machine (Mac). Quick, all you PC owners. Smash your machines
>before they destroy the world and convert to MacOS and dig out all those
>old Ataris, Amigas even ZX-81s... Keep the flame! ;-)

	No ZX-81, but my Timex-Sinclair 1000 still works (twice the RAM of the
ZX-81: 2 whole K)...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 21:56:28 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Speed of Light.

At 04:33 pm 05/12/97 +1000, you wrote:
>On Sun, 11 May 1997, David J. Golden wrote:
>
>> At 02:09 pm 05/12/97 +1000, you wrote:
>> >
>> >Can anyone tell me how I would figure out the slowing down of time as I
>> >approach the Speed Of Light?  Assuming that when I am travelling at the
>> >speed of light time will stop, how would I figure out how much time passed
>> >if I was travelling at half the speed of light and in Erath time I had
>> >travelled 1000 years?
>> 
>> 	The "tau factor" is used for both time and length contraction, and mass
>> increase, and is equal to (1-v^2/c^2). So in your case, the factor is
>> 0.75==>750 years would have passed.
>
>So what your saying is that for every 1000 Earth years I travel at 50% the
>speed of light, 750 years pass on the ship.  Correct?  This does not sound
>right - but hey, I aint a Physicist either, nor am i a Heretic.

	Nope. What I'm saying is it was a long weekend, a late night, and a dry
brain. As I've been informed, the correct tau factor is apparently

	1/sqrt(1 - v^2/c^2)

so for every 1000 years on board the ship, 1,154 years pass outside. This
sounds better, as relativistic effects don't really start mushrooming until
higher fractions. At 0.9c, 2,294 years would pass, etc.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 22:08:39 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: MAJOR PROBLEM WITH QSDS/FFS

At 09:09 pm 05/12/97 +0200, you wrote:
>I really don't see why a ship grappling another ship has to grapple on to
>such large areas. All you need is some strong cables, hook them on the
>ship and pull it onto a appropriate area. Why do the grappled ship have to
>lie with its belly toward the mother ship?

	It doesn't have to grapple on to large areas, per se. The actual grapples
themselves may take only a few square meters on each ship (for small
craft), plus another square meter or two for a connecting tunnel between
the two. But while the small craft is grappled, it's covering a much larger
portion of the mothership that then can't be used for sensors, weapons,
etc. (unless you figure your first shot will just blow a hole through the
small craft, leaving your weapon free to fire further shots at the enemy).
Here's a drawing. Think of "M" as representing a grapple. All of the
surface area marked "=" on the mothercraft is unavailable to put much of
anything else on, simply because it's covered by the small craft. 
	
                +---------------------+
                | Small Craft         |
                +---------------------+
                   M               M
 ---------------=======================--------------------
  Mothership

	Sure, the actual grapples themselves only take a little, but the effect is
to use up much more. On the other hand, I agree that L^2 is WAY too high.

> Somebody with the ability to fix this please look at it!!!

	Your wish is my command...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 14:44:03 -0900
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Captain, we'er surrounded, and they're all armed with canons

Harry: 		Bristle, bristle, spit, scowl... and other defiant looks...

TML: 		"one week jumps"

Harry: 		(bristles start going down) ...Well, yeah

TML: 		"Jump six max"

Harry: 		(spitting stops).. well..

TML: 		"Five major races"

Harry: 		(scowl dissapears)  ... well.. yes, but these things are what
traveller is all about.. aren't they... 


Last defiant act.

Hmmph... that doesn't mean that some of the other things that people have
been saying are canon (eergh, I hate that term), actually are. I agree with
Scott, let's make a list of idea's that define what traveller is, edit them
until we can all agree (this list had better be short!), and use that as a
common framework from which we can all use to communicate with.

I'll start the ball rolling with jump drives.

1. The maximum is jump six.

2. Jump takes one week 

3. While in jump, any interaction with other ships in jump, or with normal
space is completely immpossible.

I have lot's of other **opinions** about jump drives, but I am trying to
limit myself to **facts**. If I have missed something, please tell me, and
I will add it to the list. I will repost the list at regular intervals so
that people may discuss what should be taken out or put in. I will give
three warnings, before I do a final post of what defines the idea of jump
drives in traveller.

And then I'll....    hmmm... lets just see how this jump drive thing
goes... I'll be interested to see if we can come to an agreement on this.


Harry.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 01:10:04 -0500
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: The Holy Traveller Canon

The heathen Eris Reddoch wrote:

>On 05/12/97 at 12:36 AM,  "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca> said:
>
>> > THERE IS NO TRAVELLER CANON!!!!
>
>Geeze!  I've got to say something about this!
>
>There is NO Traveller canon!

	Sure there is! It's sitting in a big box upstairs!

>> 	But seriously, SURE there is a Traveller canon. Look, I have a whole
>> pile  of CT books and modules lying around. And you know what, I still
>> get a hell  of a lot of use out of 'em. And, IG and MM willing, I will
>> still be able to  use them for a long time to come.
>
>Sorry, K.C., that's not canon.  Canon is LAW.  What you are
>describing are game books and modules, at most *suggested* rules of
>behavior.  Over the past 20 years I've bought lots of those books, and I
>never found one LAW in any of them...lot's of rules, no laws.
>
>Marc, Loren, nor Frank never dropped by to bless or damn my games. They
>never required an orthodoxy test when I laid my money down. They never
>threatened to take back their books if I didn't follow their rules.  ;->
>
	hmm, maybe I came across wrong. I certainly don't believe in an orthodoxy 
text before you can purchase Emperor's Arsenal, for example. If you want to 
bastardize the rules, by all means go ahead. More power to ya.

	But that doesn't mean the canon doesn't exist. It does, you just choose to 
pick-and-choose the parts you use. And heck, thats probably a lot more fun 
than trying to stick religiously to the existing canon.

I guess what I was arguing for, though, was for self-consistency in 
published Traveller material. While you Eris should feel free to ignore any 
part of the canon that gets in your way, IMPERIUM GAMES SHOULD NOT!

	IG and MM should, to the best of their ability, follow the existing canon 
as closely as possible when designing new supplements and books. And even 
being the heretic that you are, I think you can agree with that.

>What I don't believe in is "the one true way" to Traveller.  I don't
>believe in forcing anyone to play the game the "one right way", for there
>are many paths to enlightenment...oops wrong religion. ;->
>
	But there should be "one official, published way" for Traveller. It 
doesn't have the same ring as "the one true way", but when you start having 
three or four different PUBLISHED ways the game is heading down the wrong 
track.

>So KC, I propose, you play your way, I'll play it mine, and everyone else
>can do the same.  You can be as orthodox as you like, I can be as 
heretical
>as I like, and everyone else can decide for themselves. Deal?

	Absolutely. I never wanted to come across as demanding the game be played 
a certain way. In other games, I have frequently begged, borrowed and 
stolen different supplements from different games. When done right, it is 
infinitely better than religiously following the published material.

	But what's good for the goose is not good for the gander. IG does not have 
that same liberty to freely deviate from published material.

K.C. Komosky, Defender of the Faith
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 01:28:24 -0500
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: RE: Crisis on Infinite Earth

Michael aka Solomani wrote:

>Warning - I am about to enter rant mode - prepare yourself.

	Well, I'm in an arguing kind of mood (being in the midst of an election 
campaign will do that to ya), so...

>Hmmm, after the recent discussion on "canon" of Traveller, and my normal
>day to day observations of the list, I am getting worried.  I believe that 
>Traveller is heading the way of Dungeons and Dragons.  It seems more and
>more things are being created within Traveller which are more suited for a
>a Fantasy game then a Sci-Fi game.  There's a lot of hand waving on many
>issues, where things are explained as "it just works".
>
>First thing on my Hit List is the whole Jump system, most already know
>what my views are concerning this.

	"Traveller is HEADING towards being a Fantasy game", and you mention Jump 
drives as the culprit? I'm afraid to tell you that Jump drives have been 
around since 1977. It 'aint "heading" anywhere.

	Now after I just wrote a big long defense of the Traveller Canon, I'll 
repeat myself. Jump drives, as written, are an inherent part of Traveller. 
If you don't like them, fine. By al means, go ahead and use an alternate 
FTL system from FF&S, or make up your own, but that isn't Traveller.

>Second, is the whole "Virus" episode.  Can't say I really liked this idea
>- "oh no, not another dark age."  Also, is this sort of lifeform even
>plausiable?

	As you no doubt know, a lot of people agree with you. Thats why T4 has 
pretty much ignored the whole TNE setting. So if you don't like it, then 
fine.
	
>Also a few other niggling things, like fusion drives and Heplar's.

	HEPLAR isn't realistic? It was way too realistic for me.

>I am probably alone in this, but Traveller seems to be heading the same
>way as a lot of modern sci-fi generally is (including shows like Trek and
>b5) - its just plain fantasy, no basis in any science whatsoever.  The
>greatest, and I dare say only appeal to me of Traveller was its
>foundation in science.  I just wanted to know if anyone else felt the same
>way?

	You're not totally alone, but...

	It all comes down to suspension of disbelief. As long as the scientific 
innacuracies aren't so obvious that they hit you in the face (like the 
shows you mentioned), then I'm happy. As long as I, a reasonably educated, 
scientifically mined individual, can accept a given piece of technology at 
first glance, I could care less that if you closely look at the laws of 
thermodynamics and start doing all kinds of  calculations, thruster plates 
wouldn't work.

	To tell you the truth, until I bought FF&S I had never though of that 
problem about thruster plates (and I've been around since CT). And I still 
could care less because of that fact.

>I would much rather an Arthur C. Clarke style Traveller Universe then an
>ID4 styled one.  Reality check time.

	But ask yourself which is Traveller closer to? And I would much rather 
have the Traveller universe as currently written than have it ruined by 
some misguided attempt make it more scientifically accurate.


K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 01:31:35 -0500
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: RE: Captain, we'er surrounded, and they're all armed with canons

>Hmmph... that doesn't mean that some of the other things that people have
>been saying are canon (eergh, I hate that term), actually are. I agree 
with
>Scott, let's make a list of idea's that define what traveller is, edit 
them
>until we can all agree (this list had better be short!), and use that as a
>common framework from which we can all use to communicate with.
>
>I'll start the ball rolling with jump drives.
>
>1. The maximum is jump six.
>
>2. Jump takes one week
>
>3. While in jump, any interaction with other ships in jump, or with normal
>space is completely immpossible.


	But dosn't it depend on what you mean by a "maximum" of jump six? After 
all, starships have been misjumping a great deal durther than that for 
years! It is a maximum of Jump six at TL 15 (and perhaps 16 or 17).

	And of course, its not exactly one week. Its +/- a little bit, as well.

K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca

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5````4D4Z( `````#``TT_3<``-Z;
`
end

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 18:07:01 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: [off topic] Second Law of Thermo

Can someone quote me the *complete* Second law of thermodynamics?

Thanks


Im out like bell bottom trousers,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


Imagination is more important than knowledge
 Albert Einstein

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 18:37:05 +1200
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Ship Economics - Making a buck!

>	Just like real world slow mail, where it costs me the same per trip 
rather
>than by distance, you mean? (32 cents to send a letter across the street 
or
>across the continent ...)
>-- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --

Nope!

My last piece of mail from your fine country was from IG themselves and had 
$1.40 on it.  Besides - I would consider each country to be the general 
equivalent of a world in Traveller (Each Land mass in any case).  But 
before I get bombarded - It's just generally :)

BCD

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 00:07:25 -0800
From: Evyn gutierrez <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Virus and falkj5t495ujg

Naw, having a Mac won't protect you.
I've set up a virus training corse in my living room,
hooked my mac to my clone to ease the transfer of my
campaign data. (can you say Goodlife, Good, I knew you
could  8-))(too much PBS with my replacement, I think)

Anywhos, any of y'all remebers where the Trav Navigator
software was at? Was it any good?
Also, a reveiw of the Trav suite would be Kind. The Demo
was only kinda useful (waayy to crippled for a good test 
drive)

I'm all in favor of a gathering of the Tml westcoast
Crowd. A sunday would be nice, but not Memorial day 
weekend, its the kickoff of summer and the "how high or
far" drunk tossing contest at my nameless Casino of
employment. I'm in the running for both catagories. And
if I miss a weekend like that I'm behind until the Forth..

Well, I encountered something new from IG today at my
not so local FNG. The release catalog a very fine little
booklette, full colour, and already behind on the product
release dates. At least it was the size of all proper
Trav books 8x5.

Have found a use for first survey, I ignore the refs data
in the back and let my players use the rest. Am playing
in the New era, so the Dgp data still works for me.

Evyn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 09:10:00 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: MAJOR PROBLEM WITH QSDS/FFS

On Mon, 12 May 1997, David J. Golden wrote:

> At 09:09 pm 05/12/97 +0200, you wrote:
> 	It doesn't have to grapple on to large areas, per se. The actual grapples
> themselves may take only a few square meters on each ship (for small
> craft), plus another square meter or two for a connecting tunnel between
> the two. But while the small craft is grappled, it's covering a much larger
> portion of the mothership that then can't be used for sensors, weapons,
> etc. (unless you figure your first shot will just blow a hole through the
> small craft, leaving your weapon free to fire further shots at the enemy).
> Here's a drawing. Think of "M" as representing a grapple. All of the
> surface area marked "=" on the mothercraft is unavailable to put much of
> anything else on, simply because it's covered by the small craft. 

But put the ship with its end toward the large ship and a much
smaller area is used
                  +---------------------+ |
                  |      Small Craft    |E| Mother Ship
                  +---------------------+ |

This should be no problem with crafts that are not to enter 
atmospheres.

> 	
>                 +---------------------+
>                 | Small Craft         |
>                 +---------------------+
>                    M               M
>  ---------------=======================--------------------
>   Mothership
> 
> 	Sure, the actual grapples themselves only take a little, but the effect is
> to use up much more. On the other hand, I agree that L^2 is WAY too high.
> 
I think that the surface requirement also should differ between 
Airframed/Streamlined and Unstremlined hulls to take into account
what I described above.

> > Somebody with the ability to fix this please look at it!!!
> 
> 	Your wish is my command...
> -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
>    goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
>     *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***
> 

Tommy Grav                  tommy.grav@astro.uio.no    
Institute of Astrophysics   http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/
University in Oslo          "If you value your lives, be somwhere 
Norway                       else!" - Ambassador Delenn B5 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 02:05:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: A Question of Length: Post or WWW?

Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com> wrote:

>Some of the information I've been working on for the Suerrat is now ready
>for public perusal and comment.  I can't recall, though, what the current
>state of the list membership is with regard to digest-readers, single-
>message recipients, and those with web access.
>I have two files, one (7.5K) on Suerrat biology and culture, and another
>(8.5K) covering their history from origins to the end of the Ziru Sirka.
>What is our current TML "netiquette" regarding large files?  Should I post
>them here, or put them in my webspace and merely provide a URL?

Please post these here.  Some of us have rather dubious (ie lynx) web 
access and very much appreciate such postings.

Thanks-


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:48:00 +0100
From: Nick Munn <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: MAJOR PROBLEM WITH QSDS/FFS

[QSDS grapples take up too much surface area, especially for spheres 
etc.]

QSDS grapples are designed to preserve the streamlining of a ship, so 
one can't just consider the contact area or footprint of a craft 
attached to the ship's hull.  In order to fit a sphere to a 
streamlined hull in such a way as to preserve the streamlining, you 
may have to recess the sphere quite a way into the hull.  This eats 
up more surface area than one might predict.

QSDS is still crude, but maybe not as crude as implied.

Nick

Dr. Nick Munn, University of Sheffield, Dept. of Information Studies
 (formerly nsm14@cus.cam.ac.uk, now N.S.Munn@shef.ac.uk)

Scientist * Freelance theologian * Traveller player and BITS member

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:44:34 +0100
From: Nick Munn <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Geonee Post: The Llyrnians

>>From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>

>>The geothermal energy sources is a nice touch, but begs the
>>question: what precisely is the biochemistry upon which Llyrnian
>>life is based? With a type 3 atmosphere ("very thin") it isn't
>>likely to be based much on gas exchange.  IIRC, Earth's
>>geothermally supported life doesn't rely on atmosphere either.  So
>>what does primitive (and, thence, more advanced) Llyrnian life
>>subsist on?  Does it use sulfur instead of oxygen?  Do more
>>advanced Llyrnian life forms "eat" sulfur, hoarding it in
>>specially- evolved "lung" pouches for later metabolism, to allow
>>travel outside the rich, comfortable volcanic areas?  "Life
>>support" for Llyrnian caves would thus consist of heating and
>>sulfur-conveyors.

Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>:

> I wasn't thinking in such processes, but it's a good idea. Llyrn's
> atmosphere is Very Thin, but untainted. Life originated in
> geothermal energy sources, but evolved towards oxygen-consumption
> (that's one of the current theories on the origin of life on Earth,
> although not a popular one), although more as an energetic complement
> than as a fundamental process (i.e. Llyrnians can actually "hold
> their breaths" for a long time...) As for sulfur, it is not breathed,
> but *eaten* in the diet, as most inferior life forms on Llyrn use
> only sulfur, not oxygen. More details will follow.

> Any chemist in the list could tell me how a mixed Oxygen/Sulfur
> consumption process may work?

Thought you'd never ask 8-)

My picture of the basic Llyrnian biochemistry is one which evolved to 
gain energy from sulfur.  When more complex. longer-lived organisms 
evolved, they suffered from oxygen poisoning -- this might be a bit 
like carbon monoxide poisoning for us, where all the oxygen-carrying 
sites in red blood are bound up by CO, and we can't breathe, and die.
Oxidation would also damage genetic information, in an analogous way 
to ionising radiation, and hence maybe provide a mechanism for 
mutation.

The evolutionary stimulus would be to reduce the deleterious effects 
of oxygen.  Firstly, organisms developed a tough external coat, using 
the oxygen in an organosilicate outer layer.  This reduced oxygen 
intake from the atmosphere.  It is also the ultimate source of those 
tough claws...

Larger organisms, faced with a need to lose heat to their 
environment, developed respiratory systems which used the thin 
atmosphere for cooling.  This greatly increased the damage which 
oxygen did, but simultaneously gave an advantage to the larger 
creatures (feeding, whatever).  Thanks to the mutating effects of 
oxygen, Llyrnians quickly evolved to use their oxygen intake to their 
own advantage.  Through organo-semimetallic metabolic pathways, they 
used oxygen to reclaim stored sulfur from waste products, storing the 
resulting fuel in lung-like sacs.  Thus, the modern Llyrnian has two 
distinct metabolic mechanisms:

(basic) Biochemistry based on C, N, Si, S, O, and a little H.  (This 
is intended to reflect what's available on a small planet.)  Sulfur 
is the fuel for this chemistry, and waste products are rich in 
sulfur, predominantly solid or fluid.

(additional) Oxygen metabolism converts waste products back to 
organosilicates and sulfur, producing SO2 gas as waste (which is 
exhaled to cool the organism).

This has the nice side-effect that Llyrnian troops do indeed smell of 
brimstone, like all the best demons...

Hope this triggers a few ideas,

Nick


Nick Munn, University of Sheffield, Dept. of Information Studies

"Just because he is unhappy, it does not follow that he is in love."
(Horace Walpole, _The Castle of Otranto_)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 20:31:47 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Contact: Sayat

In mail you write:

>> Aside:  Wouldn't the Vargr and the 'modified' minor races of humaniti be
>> 'older races' than Solomani humans?  I mean, their distinguishing
>> biological traits were set 300,000-odd years ago, whereas Homo sapiens
>> sapiens is pretty modern (~30-50,000 y.a.?)  I dunno... sort of hard to
>> judge absolute "age" of species in any case.
>
> I see what your saying, but this makes no sense.  Terra is the homeworld
> of all Humaniti as well as the Vargr.  So either our current primitive
> dating system is wrong, or the Ancients screwed up somehow :)

Actually, the species 300,000 years ago aren't *that* different (if I
recall correctly). If not, then it's a wonder that the various branches
of humaniti look much more like each other than humans, chimps, and
gorillas. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 21:34:34 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Speed of Light.

In mail you write:

> Can anyone tell me how I would figure out the slowing down of time as I
> approach the Speed Of Light?  Assuming that when I am travelling at the
> speed of light time will stop, how would I figure out how much time passed
> if I was travelling at half the speed of light and in Erath time I had
> travelled 1000 years?

There are two related numbers used for this sort of thing. Tau and
gamma. Gamma=1/tau.

	Tau=sqrt(1-(v^2/c^2))

A handy check figure is that .8c has a tau of .6 and vice versa.

For working with calculators, there's a more convenient formula:
	tau=sin(arcsin(v/c))

This is only good for constant velocities. For constant accelerations,
the formulas get messier.

Anyway, the answer is tau of .866 for a time of 866 years.

If you'd wanted to know the earth time for a ship time of 1000 years,
you'd use gamma instead of tau.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1311
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, May 13 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1312



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Jump vs Gate/Wormhole Tech.
Re: Contact: Sayat
Re: A Question of Length: Post or WWW
Re: Captain, we'er surrounded, and they're all armed with c
Virus, an idea
computer game (was re: some questions)
Re: Virus, an idea
FFS Grappels problem
Traveller Infodata Library
A Question of Length: Post or WWW?
Canon References
Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth
Re: A plea for canonization (was Future History Revisionism)
RE: Captain, we'er surrounded, and they're all armed with canons
Re: Virus, an idea
Re: Captain, we'er surrounded, and they're all armed with c
Re: Crisis on Infinite Earths
Re: FFS Grappels problem

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 20:45:00 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jump vs Gate/Wormhole Tech.

In mail you write:

>
> Hi all,  I have been doing some thinking (and reading) recently (WARNING! 
> WARNING! Thinking is dangerous!).  Before I continue, I am NOT a
> physicist or even a scientist.  My interest in science is from a purely
> socilogical and philosophical point, so they maybe errors in my logic.
>
> Have you ever noticed that most sci-fi falls into two categories when it
> comes to Hyperspace.
>
> You have the Traveller/StarTrek/StarWars/Asimov concept of "jumping" or
> warping.  No possible technical explaination can be made, we just assume
> that in a distant future our descendents will figure out how to get to
> other systems without taking to long.
>
> The flip side is the Gate technology which is prevalent in things like
> Babylon5 and many sci-fi computer games (Elite comes to mind).  Where
> there is a definite point of entry and exit through a Gate which warps
> time and space usually by the use of a wormhole of some type. 

Actually, the methods of FTL break down into a lot more than 2 types.

1. FTL in "real" space. Somehow you just go FTL but you are essentially
   in normal space and can see and be seen. Star Trek uses this.
2. "Hyperspace". You go into a hyperspace where distances travelled
   correspond to much greater distances in normal space.
3. "Jump" you exit normal space and reenter at a point greatly
   seperated from your starting point. Normally there's no time lag
   between entry and exit.
4. "Warp" you warp space until your start and end points are identical.
.... etc

Traveller is more 2 than 3, but has elements of both. I've seen logical
lists of around a dozen categories...

> The other approach is the use of Wormholes (sort of the Jump Gate
> Technology).  As far as I know, Wormholes have been (mathematically)
> proven to exists.  The problem with wormholes is that there tiny and
> unstable, and they exist for only momments of life, much shorter then it
> would be possible to travel through them.  So, would it be to great a
> stretch of the imagination to believe that by th 52nd century Humananity
> has gotten to the point where they can locate, and force open these
> wormholes practically wherever they wish?

There is another equally "possible" solution. The Alcubierre warp
drive. It essentially destroys space-time in front of the ship and
creates it behind the ship. Or you can think of it as creating a wave
in spacetime which the ship rides like a surfboard.

> The debate about how we would do this is a completely different topic, I
> am only interested to see what the minds on the list say about this system 
> replacing the current Jump system.  I would really like to hear
> from anyone who has done research into Black Holes and the like.

The two big problems with wormholes are that while we have ideas about
how to enlarge and stabilize them we have no ideas as to how to
*create* them, at least not creating ones with widely seperated ends,
and controlling *where* the ends are.

The few proposals for creating wormholes have them formed with the ends
close together. You then have to *move* the ends to where you want them.
But this opens up the possibility of time travel.... Read Forward's
book "Timemaster" for details.

> My only beef is that Traveller is such a cool game because, where
> possible, its scientifically accurate.  For a universe like Travller to
> exist, humans have to be able to travel between systems quickly.  The
> current system is workable, but does not agree with our current body of
> knowledge on the subject.  Wormholes/Jump Gates seem to be a workable
> alternative to the current Jump system.

It doesn't *dis*-agree all that badly, and has the advantage of having
limits such that time travel (an inescapable consequence of FTL) is
very, very difficult.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 20:07:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Contact: Sayat

In mail you write:

>>Humans *already* have an ovipositor. It delivers modified, mobile ova
>>called "sperm". It's a heavily modified clitoris called the penis.
>>
>>So just "back track" things a bit. Modify the X chromosome a bit and
>>eliminate the Y. The urethra is as in a woman. The clitoris is modified
>>to be larger and when engorged is finger thick and about a foot long.
>>It's also prehensile so as to be able to connect more easily (a trait a
>>number of mammals have)
>
> This all makes great sense, and the approach to the 'problem' you take is
> really interesting.  And pretty credible, in some respects -- for example,
> I know that *adult* women who take testosterone (female-to-male
> transsexuals, I'm talking here) usually have pretty dramatic growth of the
> clitoris -- I've seen ~5 cm on one FTM after less than a year of hormone
> treatments.  We're pretty plastic critters, even with TL6 (?) medicine.
>
> Prehensile, now, well... <G>

Well, I've had the "honor" of being present when a bull couldn't get to
the cow. It's rather amazing how prehensile an organ with no muscles
can be. :-)

>>Assuming that you believe Freudian psychologists, this makes the Sayat
>>very, *very* unhuman. No "castration fear", no real difference between
>>mother and father (and *both* are potential partners except for any
>>taboos the society may have). I expect there's a taboo against having
>>sex with yourself, as that'd be much worse than incest genetically
>>speaking.
>
> Hm, interesting... I do like it.  With ovum-donation being dependent on
> having a functional ovipositor-thingy, though, seems you could still get
> some sort of 'castration fear' complex.

It wouldn't be the *same thing psychologically. Supposedly the
"castration fear come from a young boy seeing a naked girl or woman and
thinking that they had theirs cut off. Obviously, that won't happen
with Sayat.

> So, do you think that in this case, the Sayat would have a masturbation
> taboo as well, or just a taboo on knocking yourself up?  God, I love
> science fiction!

Well, it depends. They may have a taboo about masturbation, they may
not. Heck, it may not even be *possible* (ie you need the stimulus of a
partner).

> Basically, though, for my own use, I'm still going to go with the Sayat as
> written, and their 'inadequate' genetic engineering.  Anyone else who wants
> to use them in a game or campaign setting is, of course, welcome to do as
> you please -- it's not what I'd consider a really major part of the
> background.  The point is just that they're monosexual, is all -- and
> unless you're running a fairly adult-themed game, the exact genital
> morphology isn't likely to be relevant.

I just re-read a collection of stuff by Phillip Jose Farmer last night.
This stuff is *tame*. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 06:24:25 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: A Question of Length: Post or WWW

	I'd say post'em.  Put them on the Web and I'll rarely if ever
bother to go and have a look.  Run it by me here and I might just say
"cool", and cut&save it.

R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:18:22 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Captain, we'er surrounded, and they're all armed with c

- -> 1. The maximum is jump six.
- -> 
- -> 2. Jump takes one week 
- -> 
- -> 3. While in jump, any interaction with other ships in jump, or with normal
- -> space is completely immpossible.
No Communication faster than fastest jump possible! Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 14:02:01 +0100 (BST)
From: "mark.wilkin" <aa4mwi@zen.sunderland.ac.uk>
Subject: Virus, an idea

I had this quite funky idea for an adventure last night, as I'm probably 
never going to be able to run it I thought I'd share and enjoy.
ok all your PC's are viruses, one controlling a ship the others are a 
bundle of robots. Not combat robots, cleaners, mechanics, butlers etc. 
The semi-plot I've come up with is a mother, or two parent viruses came 
under attack just as it/they were creating a new virus on a small 
scout-ship, before they were destroyed some of the robots and the new 
virus ship escaped by mis-jumping.
But what now how do they survive, with the robots being new viruses as well, 
what a big strange universe it is. Just how do you use your jump engines, 
communicationd dish, arms correctly.
Who is this Lucan fellow your parents told you about, and just why do you 
want to go to Cyberline.
and finally on this planet you've landed on who are these strange non 
robot creatures and what exactly makes them tick.

Well anyway it could be a laugh.

mark wilkin
 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 09:46:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brett Fishburne <bfish@atlantech.net>
Subject: computer game (was re: some questions)

Say what are the features you think are critical to a traveller computer game?

At 07:56 PM 5/12/97 MET, Volker A. Greimann wrote:
>-> A mix of the two, taking the best features of each game, would have 
>-> been an dynamite combination.
>Oh so true!
>-> I see.  That was hard for me to do.  I felt like I was working the 
>-> same problem on the same screen each time.  I was really disappointed 
>-> in that part of the game.
>True again, and only solveable if you are able to ignore that 
>feeling. Hey, talking about repetitive games: i am just playing Bard's 
>Tale III again :-)! 
>-> I actually stumbled upon these games in the "old" section of a 
>-> computer game store about five years ago.  I think I bought the 
>-> first one for $15, and the second for only $5!
>I bought them on the second hand games market, although i knew they 
>existed from the beginning. 
>-> I consider myself lucky to have found these.  I didn't even know 
>-> Traveller had computer games, and until your post, I didn't know that 
>-> a third one was planned.
>I only found out about that a month ago, when i purchesed an old 
>Microplay fantasy RPG: Challenge of the Five realms, of which i 
>hadn't heard anything before, only because of the only line on the 
>back "Designed by RPG Hall of Famer Marc Miller!". That bit made me 
>buy that game on the spot. What can i say, i'm a groupie!
> 
>-> I'd like to see IG  come  up with a good Traveller computer game.
>You can say that again!
>Let's pester them ontil they give in! 
>I really want to see Bard's Tale IV: "Traveller" (NOT!!!!). But a 
>game that jives with modern standards would be excellent!Ad Astra,
>
>V.A.G.       
>------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
>-- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
>--- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
>---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
>-----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 06:55:43 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Virus, an idea

On Tue, 13 May 1997, mark.wilkin wrote:

> I had this quite funky idea for an adventure last night, as I'm probably 
> never going to be able to run it I thought I'd share and enjoy.
> ok all your PC's are viruses, one controlling a ship the others are a 
> bundle of robots. Not combat robots, cleaners, mechanics, butlers etc. 

Kryten, meet Rosie...Rosie, Kryten. And that's Marvin over there...:-)

This could be a RIOT!


Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 97 10:12:39 -0400
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: FFS Grappels problem

>I really don't see why a ship grappling another ship has to grapple on to
>such large areas. All you need is some strong cables, hook them on the
>ship and pull it onto a appropriate area. Why do the grappled ship have to
>lie with its belly toward the mother ship?

There are three kind of grappels in FFS, Airframe, Streamlined, and
Unstreamlined.  So have to say what type your are talking about. AF
grappels take up the most room and mass, because they need to smooth
over any rough interfaces and make sure nothing disrupts the airflow.  

What you are talkinga bout above would be an USL grappel.

Lewis Roberts
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Q:What did the baby porcupine say when it backed into a cactus?
A:Is that you Mommy?     

lewis@chara.gsu.edu
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 15:27:00 +0100
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: Traveller Infodata Library

Hi,

	Can anyone please tell me where on the web I can find Peter Keel's
Traveller Infodata Library that formerly resided at
http://www.lugs.ch/~killer/traveller

	Thanks...


Bruce E J Lewis - mailto:bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk
Telephone - 0956-506527

	From Barkingside, within the London home county of Essex, E N G L A N D

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 97 10:28:00 -0400
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: A Question of Length: Post or WWW?

>I have two files, one (7.5K) on Suerrat biology and culture, and another
>(8.5K) covering their history from origins to the end of the Ziru Sirka.

Those aren't that big.  I think the biggest thing ever posted to the
TML was a write up of the planet Tavonni by David Jaques-Watson and
friends.  It was 33kb. 

I'd say post here and put it on the web.

Lewis Roberts
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Q:What did the baby porcupine say when it backed into a cactus?
A:Is that you Mommy?     

lewis@chara.gsu.edu
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:25:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Canon References

Well, if people want to be heretics, all the power to them, but
to us canon-toting people who want to keep the history of
Terra's conquest of the stagnant, fetid Vilani empire pure and true,
I offer some useful links that describe the history of the three
Imperia. These are other people's web pages, I take no credit for them.

http://members.aol.com/kagekiha/traveller/index.htm
 - the "Argushiigi Admegulasha Bilanidin" for all you Vilani-speakers
 - good, general historical stuff

http://www.prairienet.org/~dmckinne/timeline.html
 - The Traveller Integrated Timeline
 - Pretty stinkin' useful - I dare you to try and one up Don on this one.
 - also http://www.prairienet.org/~dmckinne/timehelp.html for help

http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/library/library_data.html
 - Library data from Joe Heck. But really, if you're on TML,
    you've got all this stuff, right? (Of course, try running
    grep on your MT Referee's Companion and see how far you get)

http://members.aol.com/sgalli5794/traveller/geonee/index.html
 - All that Geonee stuff, with a timeline that fits with 
    other timelines and published info. Perhaps if Greg Porter
    took up Spanish, he'd have an easier time keeping Traveller
    history straight.

Note also that a lot of the links off of IG's web site seem to
be broken or out of date. These should all be good as of today,
May 13, 10:20 AM, EDT.

The first 3 items would all constitute "canon" material, IMO.

Enjoy,
Ethan
- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 07:30:59 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth

On Tue, 13 May 1997, Michael Solomani Mifsud wrote:

> 
> I would much rather an Arthur C. Clarke style Traveller Universe then an
> ID4 styled one.  Reality check time.

Hmmm, and just what was that law...Oh yeah:

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW OF TECHNOLOGY AND INNOVATION:

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

	Well, remove Jump Drive, fusion and HePLar (I just randomly
capitalize bits:) and what have you got? certainly not Traveller. 

	Remove all the handwaving, and what have you got? A rather boring
game called 'Reality'.

	If you build a game around stl travel between the stars, you can't
realistically have interaction between different systems, or between
ships and systems...all you're left with is one planet, or one ship, and
the game certainly wouldn't be Traveller.

	The problem with grounding Traveller so firmly in present day
science is that it's NOT SET IN THE PRESENT DAY, DAMMIT!!! In three or
four thousand years Clarkes third law will still apply, and with a
vengeance. All told, I think that Traveller represents a far, far too
conservative progression of technology, if anything, the 'reality'
presented to us if we were somehow transported there would be akin to the
reactions of an Egyptian ca. 2000 BC transported to the present day: 
"Ayup, I'm in the land of the Gods, no doubt about it!" 

	Well, maybe he wouldn't say "Ayup!"

	Besides, maybe it wouldn't be so bad if Traveller went the way of
D&D, after all. Hmmm...well thought out rules (by now, anyway ;-),
properly edited source books, huge world-wide player base, and bankrupt
parent company...Oops, better not push it too far :-)

	Traveller is based on a few simple, but technologically handwaved
assumptions, actually, two linked ones, in fact. Jump Drives take a week
to get where they're going, and this limits the speed of communication.
This forms the foundation of everything that drives Traveller society, and
THAT, folks, is the realm in which we role play, not the technology. The
two are inextricably bound, though, so if you change the technology, you
change the other. 

	I've argued this point before, but _I_ think it bears repeating.
The soul of the game, of any game, is the magic it brings to the mind of
the players, the wonders of going somewhere you can't get in reality, the
new vistas it opens in your minds eye. There are stylistic differences
between games, but all in all they are all fantasy to some extent.

	Suspending your disbelief is crucial to any of them, whether
you're imagining fighting a troll in the dank recesses of a dungeon,
battling Stormtroopers on some Deathstar, or hopping in your Free Trader,
setting the coordinates, and punching the Jump drive button. I don't CARE
about the precise details of how a jump drive works, as long as it works
pretty much the same way each time. Consistency is the key. 

	If by this attitude you don't think that I'm playing Traveller,
well, tough...I think I am, and that's all that matters.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:10:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: A plea for canonization (was Future History Revisionism)

Quoth me:
> How about the "Concise History of the Third Imperium," published in the
> Traveller's Digest and now available on... um... somebody's web site.

That would be Bryan Borich's excellent reference site at:

	http://members.aol.com/kagekiha/traveller/index.htm

Sure enough, he has Concise Histories available for all three Imperia,
plus some information on non-Imperial megacorporations, world names
from published materials, sector names and data, and a list of minor
races (including those from Aliens Archive).  I highly recommend it.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 01:09:00 +1000
From: paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au
Subject: RE: Captain, we'er surrounded, and they're all armed with canons

At 01:31 13/05/97 -0500, you wrote:




>
>	But dosn't it depend on what you mean by a "maximum" of jump six? After 
>all, starships have been misjumping a great deal durther than that for 
>years! It is a maximum of Jump six at TL 15 (and perhaps 16 or 17).

I have never seen any articles stating that jump increases at TL's higher
than 15, in fact I have a dim memory of J-6 being tha max full stop. If
anyone can tell me if and why I am wrong, please do so.

>	And of course, its not exactly one week. Its +/- a little bit, as well.
>
OK....

1. The maximum jump controlled is jump six.
2. Jump takes one week, plus or minus one day
3. While in jump, any interaction with other ships in jump, or with normal
space is completely immpossible.


- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul A Harris
Better known as Harry.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm afraid that I regard the universe as some practical joke being pulled
on me by some higher being(s), I'm only glad that they have made it so much
fun!
								Me.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 17:11:30 +0200
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Re: Virus, an idea

Mark Wilkin wrote:

>I had this quite funky idea for an adventure last night, 
[snipped]
>Well anyway it could be a laugh.

Well some strange RPG as this one could be integrated in a secondary adventure

I explain :
Before playing TNE, I was playing WhiteWolf games (Vampire, Mage ...). They
used a technic (usable with any RPG) which is interesting in the concept :
it's the Secondary Adventure

You have you main adventure with a set of character defined by the players,
right, common! Now you (GM) build a secondary story in the same world but
in a completly different setting (other world or even other era!). This
adventure has to be much smaller (max 20% of total game play), usually the
characters are defined by the GM, not by the players. Those characters are
usually much more simple. The storyline is much more rigid than the main
adventure, more a story than a adventure in fact.

The only goal of this second  adventure is to enhance the theme (mood,
subject...) of you main adventure by showing it in a different point of
view (Pre-collapse/New Era, New Era/New-Millenium, Human/Virusses,
HighTL/LowTL, Rich/Poor people or more simply goodguys/badguys).

As a GM you can swap your setting during playtime. The hard thing is to
choose the right time to swap to get the best effect. WhiteWolf suggested
to swap right after the most intense scenes, just before the pressure goes
down. 


I've used this technic in a classic Vampire story. The Vampire characters
were manipulated by an elder Vampire (ultra classic). And I put a secondary
story in which they played regular human beeings which tries to manupulate
other humans. The players liked it very well, they said they had a better
understanding of NPC psychology. The main drawback is that you need quite
large playtime to use this technic

Comments?
- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 01:16:44 +1000
From: paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au
Subject: Re: Captain, we'er surrounded, and they're all armed with c

At 13:18 13/05/97 MET, you wrote:
>-> 1. The maximum is jump six.
>-> 
>-> 2. Jump takes one week 
>-> 
>-> 3. While in jump, any interaction with other ships in jump, or with normal
>-> space is completely immpossible.
>No Communication faster than fastest jump possible! Ad Astra,
>
Hmmm.... that seems to be a whole new topic of intersteller communications
(although I do admit that it uses the fastest jump drives available, maybe
we can just say that the speed of communications at TL-15 is limited to
light speed, and that interstellar communications are achieved by the use
of jump ships, them leave that for the communications section, to come
later...)

so now we have...

1. The maximum controlled jump is jump six.
2. Jump takes one week, plus or minus one day
3. While in jump, any interaction (including communication) with other
ships in jump, or with normal space is completely impossible.




- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul A Harris
Better known as Harry.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm afraid that I regard the universe as some practical joke being pulled
on me by some higher being(s), I'm only glad that they have made it so much
fun!
								Me.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:15:10 +0000
From: "Doctor Vince" <drvince@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Crisis on Infinite Earths

> >Also a few other niggling things, like fusion drives and Heplar's.
> 
> 	HEPLAR isn't realistic? It was way too realistic for me.

Here's an odd though for the gearheads...

What if you made a reaction drive from just water vapor? Here's the 
idea:

Use water (or some other volatile liquid) as a reaction mass...pump 
this through the cooling system of the powerplant to get 
copious quantities of steam, and vent that out the back of the ship 
for thrust. Can you generate several G's worth of pressure that way? 
The steam isn't radioactive (assuming no leaks in the PP radiator) 
and should be fairly eco-friendly. You can couple this with CG to get 
off planet, then kick the M-drive in.

> 
> >I am probably alone in this, but Traveller seems to be heading the same
> >way as a lot of modern sci-fi generally is (including shows like Trek and
> >b5) - its just plain fantasy, no basis in any science whatsoever.  The
> >greatest, and I dare say only appeal to me of Traveller was its
> >foundation in science.  I just wanted to know if anyone else felt the same
> >way?
> 
> 	You're not totally alone, but...
> 
> 	It all comes down to suspension of disbelief. As long as the scientific 
> innacuracies aren't so obvious that they hit you in the face (like the 
> shows you mentioned), then I'm happy. As long as I, a reasonably educated, 
> scientifically mined individual, can accept a given piece of technology at 
> first glance, I could care less that if you closely look at the laws of 
> thermodynamics and start doing all kinds of  calculations, thruster plates 
> wouldn't work.

I would hasten to point out that of all the other SF games out there 
(possibly with the exception of 2300 AD, RIP), Traveller has the 
least amount of handwaving and is the closest to hard SF. The problem 
with SF is that niggling "fiction" part...somewhere along the line 
you have to close your eyes and say "I believe." How you get to that 
point (which is the handwaving part) is your own business. Science 
sez there is no such thing as FTL transit or FTL commo, so that makes 
the Imperium a moot point. You have to give the fantasy a little room 
to maneuver with fiction, or it's just fact. Unfortunately science 
fact is far more boring at times than SF...

> 
> 	To tell you the truth, until I bought FF&S I had never though of that 
> problem about thruster plates (and I've been around since CT). And I still 
> could care less because of that fact.

Also, didn't someone on list figure out that the "push on the star"
handwave kinda works (with transit times to 100 diameters in the 30
hour range)?

> 	But ask yourself which is Traveller closer to? And I would much rather 
> have the Traveller universe as currently written than have it ruined by 
> some misguided attempt make it more scientifically accurate.

I have to disagree...I like the idea of making Traveller science a 
little harder, by beefing up the handwaving or by coming up with a 
small change that passes reality check better. I mean really, does 
the fact that someone uses M-drives as written or some other hybrid 
thing invalidate the game or the setting? No. The Traveller Universe 
makes a couple of inherent assumptions about FTL travel that set the 
scene...the rest is a study in sociology and economics. The fact that 
you use Thruster Plates and I like reaction drives doesn't change 
that. And as far as heretics "not playing Traveller" then whet the 
hell are we doing? The setting is the big thing, not the tech. The 
techis just a trapping.

Vince-not one of the heretic generals, justa grunt doing his job...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:05:24 -0500
From: Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com>
Subject: Re: FFS Grappels problem

Lewis Roberts wrote:
> 
> >I really don't see why a ship grappling another ship has to grapple on to
> >such large areas. All you need is some strong cables, hook them on the
> >ship and pull it onto a appropriate area. Why do the grappled ship have to
> >lie with its belly toward the mother ship?
> 
> There are three kind of grappels in FFS, Airframe, Streamlined, and
> Unstreamlined.  So have to say what type your are talking about. AF
> grappels take up the most room and mass, because they need to smooth
> over any rough interfaces and make sure nothing disrupts the airflow.
> 
> What you are talkinga bout above would be an USL grappel.

	So, why don't we work up a list of standard dT grapples for various
airframe types? It seems to me that he QSDS grapples were built to
handle the most extreme of cases: needle airframe types grappling to an
airframe hull. We could ake a list of SSDS grapples which would be more
specific - vary them by mothership airframe type, and assume a
needle/cylinder hull configuration for the babyship. That would take
into account most of the basic auxillary craft I've seen in the books
under 100dT.

Ryan Christensen	litefoot@feist.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1312
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, May 13 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1313



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Jump vs Gate/Wormhole Tech.
Re: Speed of Light
Traveller Jumpspace Wormhole Theory
Re: Speed of Light.
Re: A plea for canonization (was Future History Revisionism)
Re: Contact: Sayat
Quiptech's May THUDDD Entry
Re: A plea for canonization (was Future History Revisionism)
General tickoff at IG RE FS and M0 missing data

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 09:38:41 -0700
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Jump vs Gate/Wormhole Tech.

Michael Solomani Mifsud wrote:

> My only beef is that Traveller is such a cool game because, where
> possible, its scientifically accurate.  For a universe like Travller to
> exist, humans have to be able to travel between systems quickly.  The
> current system is workable, but does not agree with our current body of
> knowledge on the subject.  Wormholes/Jump Gates seem to be a workable
> alternative to the current Jump system.

AaaRGH! I replied to this yesterday, but my message disappeared! :-< Did
I cancel instead of send? Did the internet absorb my message without a
trace? Is it still lost in the aether?

The point I made in this lost missive was that if you decide that
wormhole theory is the basis of the way FTL travel works, that doesn't
mean you have to change the way Traveller jump-drives work.

I then proceeded to hand-wave my way through a rather extensive
description of how Traveller Wormhole-jumpdrives could be explained
without seriously meddling with things Traveller takes for granted like
misjumps, 1 week travel times, 6-jump limit, etc.

But now all that bullshittium is lost! Tragedy! (?)

I think I'll take a deep breath and if you ask me nice, I'll try to
remember what I typed yesterday and resend... but first I'll see if this
message arrives...
 
- -- 
====== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /---- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X->  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275  \
 -----------------------/ \=========== Eschew Obfuscation ===========

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 09:23:55 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Speed of Light

>Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 14:49:41 +1000 (EST)
>From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
>
>On Mon, 12 May 1997, Scott Ellsworth wrote:
>> Half of lightspeed gives a gamma = 0.866, so in 1000 years, your earthbound
>> friends would have aged 100 years, while you aged 866.  Note that the
>> problem is not symmetric because you accelerated.
>
>So at 99% the speed of light we are looking at for every 1000 years on
>earth, the spacebound occupents age aprox. 430 years?

At 99%, sqrt(1-v^2/c^2) = .141, which means that in 1000 years of earth
time, the people on the ship will have aged 141 years.  I do wish that
there was an easy way to write an equation clearly in a news post, as that
would make this a lot more obvious. :(

(Side note: twin paradox.  From the ship's perspective, they will think
that the people on earth will have aged 141 years while they aged 1000.
Each will think the other was the moving one, and thus that the other
should be younger.  In order to solve this so-called twin paradox, you have
to include the ship stopping and coming back, or otherwise synchronizing
their clocks.  Once you find out who accelerated, you know who is younger -
the person who accelerated is the person who really had time go slow of the
two people.)

>At the speed of light they would not age at all (time stops).

That is what the formula says, and there is no reason presently to
disbelieve it.  At v=c, the formulas seem to work, as long as all particles
and only particles moving at lightspeed have zero mass.  This implies
fairly heavily, subject to new data, that the relativity corrections work
up to v=c.

>Beyond the Speed of Light barrier I would move backwards in time (?)

Correct, if you believe the numbers from the formula, though many
relativists do not think it holds for v>c.  According to relativity theory,
you get time travel and failure of simultaneity as soon as you get FTL
travel, but it is quite possible that light speed is an absolute barrier,
or that different laws come into play.  One important point - we have NO
data about FTL.

Any theory can be right, as long as it simplifies to one we know at the
speeds we work at.  In a typical lab setting of 1km/s or less, the
relativistic correction is far too small to measure, so relativity only
became needed when we started examining domains where classical laws did
not hold. The same might well be true of some FTL theory.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:08:08 -0700
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Traveller Jumpspace Wormhole Theory

Through the miracle of modern technology (Norton Utilities) I have
resurrected the lost message that I attempted to send yesterday...

<cue thunder, cut to scene of dark castle>

"It's ALIVE!!!!"

- -----begin resurrected message-----

Michael Solomani Mifsud wrote:

> My only beef is that Traveller is such a cool game because, where
> possible, its scientifically accurate.  For a universe like Travller to
> exist, humans have to be able to travel between systems quickly.  The
> current system is workable, but does not agree with our current body of
> knowledge on the subject.  Wormholes/Jump Gates seem to be a workable
> alternative to the current Jump system.

Firstly, nobody knows how to travel faster than light, so there is no
"body of knowledge on the subject." :=>

Wormholes haven't yet been proven to exist, because they haven't been
observed. Blackholes have been pretty much proven, because objects which
are easily explained by black hole theory have been observed.

If you accept current theory about wormholes, and wish to postulate that
in the future larger, stable, wormholes will be able to be made, and if
you feel wormholes are a better method for interstellar travel, then by
all means use wormholes.

BUT... there's no need to throw Traveller Jumpdrives out the window,
just explain them using "wormhole lingo". Nobody knows how long a trip
through a wormhole would take, nor how much energy it would take to
create one. So there's no reason to change the way interstellar travel
in Traveller works.

Here's an example of wormhole theory which agrees with most Traveller
conventions:


TRAVELLER JUMPSPACE WORMHOLE THEORY
- -----------------------------------

Wormholes connect two places in realspace by "tunnelling" through an
alternate space which we call "Jumpspace". Natural wormholes have been
too small and transient to be used for interstellar travel, and were
never thought to be a viable method for travel over interstellar
distances. The discovery of Jump Drives changed that.

There are three steps necessary for a ship to create a wormhole to
travel over interstellar distances:

Firstly, a course must be plotted through jumpspace. So far,
calculations of beyond 6 parsecs have been found impossible to solve.
Though it has not yet been proven insoluble, mathematicians made it
their "holy grail" ever since Fermat's Last Theorem was proven.

Secondly, a jumpspace field is created around a ship in order to allow
it to enter the wormhole. Matter not within a particle field in
resonance with the wormhole cannot enter. A certain mass equivalent to
aproximately 100 displacement tons or greater is required to enter the
wormhole. Nearby gravitational masses cause the wormhole to become
unstable. As a rule of thumb, distances beyond 100 diameters from large
planetary bodies are relatively safe.

Thirdly, the jumpdrive "drills" the wormhole by creating a massive
energy pulse of exotic particles. These particles are most commonly
created through the fusing of hydrogen; the exact catalytic and doping
process is poorly understood by even the most advanced of Imperial
physicists. The particles are neutrino-like, and pass through most
matter, so building a weapon from a jump-drive is impractical at best.

TRAVEL
- ------

The ship enters the wormhole, and travels to its calculated destination.
Since the wormhole has been plotted to the destination before entry, the
destination cannot be changed once the ship enters jumpspace.

Time to travel any distance through the wormhole is relatively
invariant, being 168 hours +/- 10%. A ship entering the wormhole is
acted upon by a constant "acceleration" to the midpoint of the trip and
a constant "decceleration" of the same magnitude from the midpoint to
the destination. The "acceleration" varies from wormhole to wormhole,
but has never been found to cause a greater than 10% variation in travel
time.

(Note: Quotes are used because acelleration is only an analogous term.
In a strict sense, the ship isn't acted upon by any force. As an
analogy, imagine a trip through a frictionless tunnel connecting two
points on earth. A trip of any distance would take the same amount of
time)

A side-effect of this property of wormholes is that a fleet using
tight-beam communications to synchronize calculations can use the same
wormhole for travel, by ensuring that their jumpspace fields resonate at
the same frequency. This means that the fleet arrives at its destination
at the same time, whatever the uncertainty in the 10% happens to be.
Each ship must generate its own "portal" to the wormhole, however. 

"Jumpgates", or the external drilling of wormholes, has been found to be
impractical with current Imperial technology because it is imperative
that the drilling process originate from *within the jumpspacee field*.
In other words, once the source generates the wormhole, it *must* enter
the wormhole.

MISJUMPS
- --------

In general, misjumps occur due to two reasons:

1) Disruption in wormhole stability

Generally caused by gravitational disturbances. The creation of a
wormhole entry point too close to a local planet, for example.

In this case, either the course of the wormhole is altered, and the ship
ends up in a completely undesired location, or, if gravity is strong
enough, the gravitational tidal forces act as a lens, constricting the
wormhole and forcing it to be smaller than intended. In this case, the
ship ends up at its destination in slightly smaller pieces... a
meatgrinder works in a similar fashion.

2) Disruption in jumpspace field intergrity

Generally caused by poor jumpdrive maintenance, using impure fuel, or
damage to the Lanthanum Grid.

If the disruption is relatively uniform, what can happen is the
frequency of the field can shift in mid-course. The ship in jumpspace
"skips" from its intended wormhole to another wormhole matching its new
field frequency. Since millions of these "virtual wormholes" are created
every second, the ships new destination is impossible to predict.

I leave the effects of a partial field-frequency "shift" as an exercise
to the reader...

By the way, Grandfather, at TL-21+, was noted for his "trans-jump
drive", which allowed him to adjust his field frequency while in
jumpspace. Legends state that he had the technology to predict wormhole
destinations and by choosing when and at what point to "skip wormholes",
he could not only break the current jump-6 limit, he also wasn't limited
by the 1-week travel time.


... OW! I think I sprained my arm from all that handwaving... ;-)
- -- 
====== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /---- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X->  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275  \
 -----------------------/ \=========== Eschew Obfuscation ===========
Technology is an extension of our hands and our feet, not our spirit.
                                    -- Filmmaker Costa-Gavras, 9/6/95

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 09:33:24 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Speed of Light.

>Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 21:56:28 -0600
>From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
>	Nope. What I'm saying is it was a long weekend, a late night, and a dry
>brain. As I've been informed, the correct tau factor is apparently
>	1/sqrt(1 - v^2/c^2)
>so for every 1000 years on board the ship, 1,154 years pass outside. This
>sounds better, as relativistic effects don't really start mushrooming until
>higher fractions. At 0.9c, 2,294 years would pass, etc.

Note that he and I have exactly the same numbers, even though mine look
different.  :)  (I have seen a lot of flamewars on sci.physics.relativity
start because two people were using inverses, and someone did not notice.)

gamma = .866, tau = 1.154, gamma = 1/tau.  1000 years on the ship is 1154
years on earth, 1000 years on earth is 866 years on the ship.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 09:28:21 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: A plea for canonization (was Future History Revisionism)

>Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 23:11:39 -0500 (CDT)
>From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>

>Quoth Scott Ellsworth:
>> I made a plea a while ago, and I want to make it again - lets try to come
>> up with a short writer's guide.

>How about the "Concise History of the Third Imperium," published in the
>Traveller's Digest and now available on... um... somebody's web site.

URL?  Please?

>And, of course, Don McKinney's Traveller Timeline is a valiant attempt to
>corral all the wacky little facts and events that have been published by
>GDW and licensees.

I check that one frequently.  It would be a definite one line reference to
a very concise and complete timeline.

>Basically, every IG author should have web access and the will to check the
>sources.  :-)

Oh please oh please oh please!

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 09:45:49 -0700
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Contact: Sayat

Leonard Erickson wrote:

>>>Assuming that you believe Freudian psychologists, this makes the Sayat
>>>very, *very* unhuman. No "castration fear", no real difference between
>>>mother and father (and *both* are potential partners except for any
>>>taboos the society may have). I expect there's a taboo against having
>>>sex with yourself, as that'd be much worse than incest genetically
>>>speaking.
>>
>> Hm, interesting... I do like it.  With ovum-donation being dependent on
>> having a functional ovipositor-thingy, though, seems you could still get
>> some sort of 'castration fear' complex.
>
>It wouldn't be the *same thing psychologically. Supposedly the
>"castration fear come from a young boy seeing a naked girl or woman and
>thinking that they had theirs cut off. Obviously, that won't happen
>with Sayat.

Ah, good point.  The fine points of Freudian psychology pretty much elude me.

TML content:  What's the field of psychiatry like in the Third Imperium?
Is it a despised pseudo-science, thanks to a ripple effect from
anti-Zhodani/anti-psionic prejudice?  Or are there scads of top-notch
Imperial researchers working feverishly to combat the psionic menace?

Sayat content:  I think there's no parent-child incest taboo among the
Sayat, in our sense of the term -- they don't recognize personal,
biological parenthood as a durable status.  A strong pressure towards
exogamy is probably present -- people are expected to socialize with others
outside their own 'nest,' and generally keep the memes & genes moving
around throughout the whole Sayat population.

I've got a bit more 'cultural' info on the Sayat, then some 'history' --
thing is, I still can't figure out *where* I'd like to locate them.  I'm
starting to sympathize with Grandfather:  Pocket universes!  That's the
ticket! <G>

>I just re-read a collection of stuff by Phillip Jose Farmer last night.
>This stuff is *tame*. :-)

Well, de gustibus non est disputandum, or however it goes -- me, I've found
his stuff juvenile and embarrassingly predictable.  At least William
Shatner's novels are good for a laugh <G>.

Kenji
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:59:44 -0500
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: Quiptech's May THUDDD Entry

Ming Class 2000-ton Exploratory Trader (QSDS, FFS, Big Hulls)
  Design By:  Paul Walker, 
              Quiptech, Inc.

Tons: 2000Sdt(Wdg SL)   Volume: 28,000m^3   Cost: (See Below)
Crew: 35                Hi/Mid: 2/5         Low: 2 (32 Emerg Lo)
Cargo: (See Below)      Controls: Std Civ   TL: 12

 9 Size                       3 Jump Drive (250Sdt/Pc Fuel)
                              2G Maueuver (T-Plates, 1260Mw)
 2xMil Laser(+4)1/4-3-2-0     2 Power Plant (1x2000Mw Fus)
 1xMissile Barb(+4)5/4      771.4 Fuel (S800 R20)
  w/5GuidedDetLsr1d6/2 6G12   6 Meson Screen (32 Mw)
                              8 Sandcaster (240 Cans, 2x+4 MFD)
 2x80-t SL Grapple          A10 P4 J10
11x30-t SL Grapple           20 Armor, 28 Structure
 1x10-t SL Grapple           90 Length

 1xEngineering Shop(6Sdt)     2x80-t Grasshopper-class
 1xVehicle Shop(10Sdt)             Modular Support Craft
 1xLaboratory(8Sdt)          11x30-t Cargo/Fuel Module
 1xSick Bay(8Sdt)             1x10-t Q010 Luxury Landing Craft
 1xFitness Room(8Sdt)
 1xEntertainment Room(8Sdt)
 1xGalley/Mess(8Sdt)

Crew: 2 Man, 2 Elec, 6 Eng, 5 Gun, 2 Scrn, 6 Small Craft,
      5 Troops, 4 Cmd, 2 Stwd, 1 Med (Cmd & Med in Lg Stateroom)

Total Price: 1190.49MCr(Discounted); 1523.69MCr(No Discount)
Total Cargo: 793Sdt

Calculations   -----Price(MCr)----
Ship           Original   Discount      Cargo(Sdt)
Ming Class      1395.39    1074.89        361.4

Grasshopper(1)    52.06      46.96          0.0
Cargo/Fuel Mod (Price for two Modules      28.7
Cargo/Fuel Mod  included in Craft above)   28.7

Grasshopper(2)    52.06      46.96          0.0
Cargo/Fuel Mod (Price for two Modules      28.7
Cargo/Fuel Mod  included in Craft above)   28.7

Cargo/Fuel Mod(1)  0.63       0.56         28.7
Cargo/Fuel Mod(2)  0.63       0.56         28.7
Cargo/Fuel Mod(3)  0.63       0.56         28.7
Cargo/Fuel Mod(4)  0.63       0.56         28.7
Cargo/Fuel Mod(5)  0.63       0.56         28.7
Cargo/Fuel Mod(6)  0.63       0.56         28.7
Cargo/Fuel Mod(7)  0.63       0.56         28.7
Cargo/Fuel Mod(8)  0.63       0.56         28.7
Cargo/Fuel Mod(9)  0.63       0.56         28.7
Cargo/Fuel Mod(10) 0.63       0.56         28.7
Cargo/Fuel Mod(11) 0.63       0.56         28.7

Q010 Craft        17.25      15.52          1.1

TOTAL SYSTEM:   1523.69    1190.49        793.0

Notes:  250-ton Collapsible Fuel Bladder (12.5Sdt Storage) included.
Advanced Communications, Small Military Sensors.  Fitness Room contains
latest advanced weight work out system as well as excercise area.
Entertainment room contains latest selection of tri-d videos as well as a
digital library, and game selection.  Galley/Mess is a specialized
kitchen/dining area.  It is reccommended that the Troops and Stewards
carried be crosstrained in firing the sandcasters in the event of the loss
of either of the MFD's.  The passengers are typically mission leaders and
their staff.  Power Surplus: 1.04Mw

Quiptech Press Release

Quiptech is pleased to announce its newest ship, the Ming-class Exploratory
Trader.  Designed to trade opportunities outside of the Imperium, the Ming
is fully equipped with many modern features.
 
Cargo is key to any trading opportunity, and here at Quiptech, we feel that
we understand this.  The Ming comes equipped with over 350 standard
displacement tons of cargo area within itself, as well as over 400 tons of
cargo area in specially designed cargo modules.  Each module comes equipped
with its own Life Suport and AG/IC systems that can be turned on and off
individually to preserve power.  This also allows the Ming to carry a
variety of different cargoes with the least amount of spoilage.

Twin Grasshopper-class Modular Support vessels are included with the Ming to
allow for faster loading and unloading of cargo.  Each Grasshopper is
capable of 5G's of thrust to quickly move cargo from the surface to the
Ming.  The AF hulls of the Grasshoppers also help speed up the process.

What good is cargo if you can't protect it?  That's why the Ming is equipped
with a level 6 Meson screen as well as 8 Sandcasters for defense.  In
addition, the twin laser batteries and the missile launcher will give the
attacking craft something to think about while the Ming makes its escape.
(Imperial Permits may be required.)

"How?" you ask.  The Ming (and all 15 of the Cargo/Fuel Modules) come
equipped with Collapsible Fuel Bladders.  We reccommend that before the Ming
jumps out of system, all of these Bladders that can be are filled with fuel.
During the jump, this fuel can be purified and pumped into the Mings fuel
tank, giving the Ming the ability to perform an emergency Jump at any time
after entering a system.

Of course, your cargo isn't valuable unless you can get it back to port, so,
the Ming is equipped with both an Engineering and Vehicle Shop and is more
than able to repair most parts while in the field.  But being able to fix
your ship is not going to help if there is no one to fly it. When you visit
new worlds, there is always the chance that a new virus or microbody will be
encountered, so the Ming is also equipped with a 2-bed sick bay and
laboratory to give the Medical staff an extra edge in finding the cure.  But
if, Ancients forbid, you are unable to find the cure, the Ming is also
equipped with more than enough low berths to preserve the injured or sick
crewmember until the cure can be found.

When you are away from home on Exploratory Trading missions, crew morale can
play a large part in whether you make a profit or not.  It is for this
reason that the Ming provides a small stateroom for each crewmember and a
large stateroom for the command and medical crew.  In addition, there is a
specially designed Galley/Mess area allowing the stewards more room to
provide for more tasteful and healthier meals. The crew can be treated to a
tri-d from a vast tri-d library, or can read a book from the library
included in the Entertainment Room. Finally, crew comfort and health will be
enhanced in the Fitness Room. A collection of various exercise machinery and
work-out areas provide the crew with yet another method for passing the long
hours of space travel.

Finally, the Ming comes equipped with a Quiptech Q010 Luxury Landing Craft.
During the negotiations and establishment of trade treaties, it is often
necessary for the mission leaders to conduct meeting of good-will on the
planet's surface.  The Q010 allows this to be done and at the same time
leave a good impression on the natives.  There are times, however, when a
stronger show is necessary, and at these times, the Ming itself can descend
to the surface of the world to leave a lasting impression with the locals.

No matter what conditions you expect, the Ming gives you the ability to
confront it with confidence.  In addition, the Ming provides a large cargo
area to increase profits and maintain that competitive edge.

Design notes:

The Ming was designed to work with the Grasshopper and the Cargo/Fuel
Modules.  The total displacement tonnage for all carried craft and the Ming
itself is 2500-tons.  The Jump Drive and Thruster Plates are designed with
this size in mind. 

Other Ships:

Grasshopper Class 80-ton Modular Support Craft (SSDS)

Tons: 80Sdt(Disc AF)   Volume: 1120m^3      Cost: 52.06MCr(46.96MCr)
Crew: 2                Hi/Mid: 0/0          Low: 0
Cargo: 0Sdt(1.39m^3)   Controls: Std Auto   TL: 12

 7 Size                     5G Maueuver (T-Plates, 100Mw)
                            3 Power Plant (1x100Mw Fus, 1x25Mw Fus)
 2x30-t Docking Ring        0.67 Fuel (Scoop 80)
 2x30-t Cargo/Fuel Module  A1 P2 J0
 1xEmerg Low Berth         20 Armor, 9 Structure
                           19.8 Length

Crew: 1 Maneuver, 1 Electronics

Notes:  The Modular Support Craft is equipped with three airlocks one for
normal entry, plus one per module.  The Craft uses the Standard Civilian
Electronics Package.  The area of the Docking Rings does not include Life
Support or Artificial Gravity/Inertial Compensation.  It is assumed to be
included in the module itself.  The Craft carries enough fuelto be used for
half a year.  The inclusion of an Emergency Low Berth allows the Craft to be
used as a lifeboat if necessary. Price listed includes two Cargo/Fuel
Modules.  Power Surplus: 5.571 Mw

Design notes:

Because I based this design on working with the Cargo/Fuel Module, I opted
not to extedn the LS and AG/IC throughout the hull.  I had some difficulty
within myself using three airlocks rather than a full year's worth of fuel,
but I felt the need for the airlocks was justified. I also don't like the
lack of cargo space, but I felt the potential of 5G's thrust was too much to
be passed up.  Of course, the pilot and sensor guy had better be strapped
into the seats when they kick in the thrust. :)

Design Sequence:

 Item      Mass       Volume     Power    Area      Cost
Hull IS    39.6000     2.640     0.000     0.0    0.036960
Armor     343.2000    22.880     0.000     0.0    0.320320
3xAirlk     0.6000     9.000     0.003     6.0    0.015000
T-Plate   200.0000   100.000   100.006    20.0   25.000000
Controls    0.1176     1.176     0.840     0.0    0.126000
StdCivElc  10.1000    24.000    13.360     0.0   12.020000
Std LS(20)  2.2400     2.240     0.056    18.0    0.140000
AG/IC(20)   5.6000     2.800     1.000     0.0    0.140000
Scoops      0.0000     0.000     0.000   198.9    0.014918
100Mw     200.0000    50.000     0.000     0.0   10.000000
25Mw       50.0000    12.500     0.000     0.0    2.500000
2xW/S       0.4000    14.000     0.000     0.0    0.003000
2x30t DkRg  0.0000   840.000     0.000   170.0    0.520000
Emerg Low   2.0000    28.000     0.002     0.0    0.100000
Fuel        0.0000     0.000     0.000     0.0    0.000000
2x30-tMod 340.9200     0.000     2.168     0.0    1.120000
Cargo       0.0000     1.389     0.000     0.0    0.000000

TOTALS:  1194.778   1120.000   119.429   412.9   52.056200
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

30-ton Cargo/Fuel Module (SSDS)

Tons: 30Sdt (Box SL)     Volume: 420 m^3     Cost: 0.63MCr (0.56MCr)
Crew: 0                  Hi/Mid: 0/0         Lo: 0
Cargo: 28.7Sdt           Controls: none      TL: 12

 7 Size                       20 Armor  5 Structure
                              11.5 Length

Crew: (0.02 Maintenance for AG/IC)

Notes:  The 30-ton Cargo/Fuel Module is equipped with a 28.5-ton collapsible
fuel bladder to allow the module to be used for fuel storage as well as
standard cargo.  The Standard Life Support and Artificail Gravity/Inertial
Compensation Systems allow for storage of any type of cargo, from
refrigerated to live, but does require a 2.084Mw power source.
(Approximate Dimensions: 11.5m x 5.2m x 7.0m)
Fuel Bladder (19.95m^3 Storage Space)

Design Notes:

All ofthe items on the Cargo/Fuel Module are SSDS items with the exception
of the Collapsible Fuel Tank which is QSDS.  The grapples needed to use this
module on an existing hull require 126m^3 volume and 132.25m^2 surface area.
They cost 0.26MCr and mass 132.25 tonnes.

Design Sequence:

 Item      Mass   Volume  Power Area    Cost   Crew   Source(Disc)
Hull IS    20.70    1.38  0.000   0   0.01932  0.000   SSDS(10%)
Armor     138.00    9.20  0.000   0   0.12880  0.000   SSDS(10%)
Lg Hatch    0.00    0.00  0.000  20   0.02000  0.000   SSDS(10%)
Std LS      3.36    3.36  0.084   0   0.21000  0.000   SSDS(10%)
AG/IC       8.40    4.20  2.000   0   0.21000  0.020   SSDS(10%)
Fuel Blad   0.00    0.00  0.000   0   0.03990  0.000   QSDS(25%)
Cargo       0.00  401.86  0.000   0   0.00000  0.000   SSDS(10%)

TOTALS:   170.46  420.00  2.084  20   0.62802  0.020
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

10-ton Luxury Landing Craft Q010 (SSDS)

Tons: 10Sdt(Cyl AF)   Volume: 140m^3      Cost: 17.25MCr(15.52MCr)
Crew: 2               Hi/Mid: See Below   Low: 0
Cargo:1.1Sdt(16.6m^3) Controls: Std Auto  TL: 12

 7 Size                     4G Maueuver (T-Plates, 10Mw)
                            5 Power Plant (1x25Mw Fus)
 4xRoomy Seats(7Sdt)        0.27 Fuel
 6xAdequate Seats (3.5Sdt) A1 P2 J0
                           10 Armor, 2 Structure
                           14 Length

Crew: 1 Maneuver, 1 Electronics

Notes:
Power Surplus: 0.6Mw 

Design notes:

The seats chosen are from FFS, and everything else is from SSDS.  As with
all of my SSDS designs, the Q010 is equipped with standard life support
rather than just basic.

Design Sequence:(Q010 Landing Craft)

 Item      Mass     Volume   Power    Area      Cost
Hull IS    9.0000    0.600   0.0000    0.0   0.00840
Armor     58.5000    3.900   0.0000    0.0   0.05460
Airlock    0.2000    3.000   0.0010    2.0   0.00500
T-Plate   20.0000   10.000  10.0000    2.0   2.50000
Controls   0.0147    0.147   0.0105    0.0   0.01575
StdCivElc 10.1000   24.000  13.3600   18.0  12.02000
Std LS(10) 1.1200    1.120   0.0280    0.0   0.07000
AG/IC(10)  2.8000    1.400   1.0000    0.0   0.07000
25Mw      50.0000   12.500   0.0000   25.0   2.50000
2xW/S      0.4000   14.000   0.0000    0.0   0.00300
4xRmy Sts  0.0800   28.000   0.0000    0.0   0.00040
6xAdq Sts  0.1200   21.000   0.0000    0.0   0.00060
Fuel       0.0000    3.750   0.0000    0.0   0.00000
Cargo      0.0000   16.583   0.0000    0.0   0.00000

TOTALS:  157.3347  140.000  24.3995  162.0  17.24775
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Design Sequence:(Ming)

 Item        Volume     Power     Area     Cost
Hull          104.7   346.000     0.00    97.200
J-3 Drive     100.0     0.000   420.00   466.700
Jump Fuel     750.0     0.003     0.00     0.000
T-Plate        90.0  1260.000   252.00   315.000
Std Civ Cont    1.7     1.300     0.30     9.200
Adv Comm        0.0    21.500   203.00     2.000
Sml Mil Sensrs  1.2    85.200    44.60    62.500
Missile Barb    6.0     0.200    20.00     0.100
3xMFD(+4)       6.9     9.300     6.30    76.800
2xMil Lsr      28.6   219.600    84.20    62.600
8xSandcaster   24.0     8.000    80.00     6.400
Meson Scrn     45.7    32.000   320.00    64.000
Engineer Shop   6.0     0.600     0.00     1.000
Vehicle Shop   10.0     1.000     0.00     2.000
Laboratory      8.0     0.800     0.00     5.000
Sick Bay        8.0     0.800     0.00     5.000
2x80-t Grpl    48.0     0.000   784.08     1.344
11x30-t Grpl   99.0     0.000  1454.75     2.772
10-t Grpl       3.0     0.000   196.00     0.084
Purif Plant    48.0    10.000     0.00     0.300
Fuel Blad(12.5) 0.0     0.000     0.00     0.350
2000Mw         71.4     0.000     0.00   200.000
PP Fuel        21.4     0.000     0.00     0.000
20xW/S         10.0     0.000     0.00     0.040
14xBridge       7.0     0.000     0.00     0.000
7xLg Strm      28.0     0.007     0.00     0.700
35xSm Strm     70.0     0.035     0.00     1.400
8xEmerg Low    16.0     0.016     0.00     0.800
2xLow Berth     2.0     0.002     0.00     0.100
Fitness Room    8.0     0.500     0.00     2.000
EntertainmentRm 8.0     1.000     0.00     5.000
Galley/Mess     8.0     1.000     0.00     5.000
Cargo         361.4     0.000     0.00     0.000

TOTALS:      2000.0  1998.960  3865.23  1395.390(1074.893)

    Paul {tiger}
     tiger@goldinc.com
     http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:08:26 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: A plea for canonization (was Future History Revisionism)

Scott Ellsworth said:
> >Quoth Scott Ellsworth:
> >> I made a plea a while ago, and I want to make it again - lets try to come
> >> up with a short writer's guide.
> 
> >How about the "Concise History of the Third Imperium," published in the
> >Traveller's Digest and now available on... um... somebody's web site.
> 
> URL?  Please?

http://www.prairienet.org/~dmckinne/timeline.txt

- -- 
 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 PGP Fingerprint: E3 3F DF 08 BE 3E 44 A0  EE A9 80 7E 22 99 CD DF
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:10:16 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: General tickoff at IG RE FS and M0 missing data

So, is IG _ever_ going to do something for those of us who made the mistake
of purchasing first Survey?  I have tried to convince both them and Marc
Miller to release some amount of data, but I have not yet succeeded.

I would be happy if they would send me either the corrected or the
uncorrected data in machine readable form.  I am willing to sign NDAs, to
send them the front cover of FS, whatever it takes, but I want some M0 data
that is, if not correct, at least present.  I am perfectly willing to not
release, it, so they can protect the profits of future releases using that
data, but I paid a fair amount for First Survey, and I think that the
crippling data error (LAW=GOV) for every world is significant enough that
they should at least be willing to meet me half way.

On a related note, are we ever going to see the deck plan for the Scout
Cruiser that was mentioned in M0?

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1313
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, May 13 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1314



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Ancients (was Re: Contact: Sayat)
Re.- T2300
Re: Sports in Imperium
More EA nits
Re: Sports in Imperium
Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth
May THUDD; Nephraitelle Class Exploratory Trader
Re: Canon References
Re: Captain, we'er surrounded, and they're all armed with canons
First Survey 'Errata'
The collapse of the Zhunastu Corp
Re: Virus, an idea
Jump 6 Max
Re: Future History Revisionism
IG Pricing Policy
RE: Captain, we'er surrounded, and they're all armed with canons
Re: A few comments on Milieu 0
Speed of Light: time dialation

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:23:54 +0100
From: David Scott <snail@dircon.co.uk>
Subject: Ancients (was Re: Contact: Sayat)

Mikko said

>Droynes (and Chirpers) have ability to develop mentally and physically
>given >right kind of outside stimulus (like Coyns). So, is it possible to
>have >similar, but superior, ritual that can transform ordinary Droyne to
>Ancient? >Perhaps casting ritual given by Grandfather is just downgraded
>version of >something that originally made Ancients some 300000 years ago.

The Ancients or rather the individuals that were Grandfather and his
children were different from oridinary Droyne, but only that they were
super intelligent and had very high psi. Grandfather was a genetic fluke
and he engineered his off spring to be so as well. Grandfather and his
offspring were unique.

Given all of the above, droyne researchers may well be attempting just
that. However Leaders may not like the idea of tampering with the gene pool
to create super INDEPENDANT Droyne. This would affect the whole fabric of
society effectively creating a new caste.

I also suspect that early on Grandfather altered the Droyne genome to
prevent this happening.

>> >*humans* from *Earth*.  He never used Aslan, or Hivers, nor is there an
>> >indication he knew of them

I think that reason Grandfather didn't use other proto-races for
experiments was their state of evolution. The aslan were pouncer carnivores
with little if any manipulation. Hivers were small starfish. At least we
were monkeys able to pick fleas off each other :-)


David

David Scott
Snail@dircon.co.uk

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 18:29:22 +0200
From: Miguel Rodriguez <Miguel_Rodriguez@seker.es>
Subject: Re.- T2300

Dear Gentlemen,
Anbody knows a useful email adress to ask about T2300? It's actually alive
in the 'net?
Thanks,

miguel.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 97 19:12 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Sports in Imperium

In-Reply-To: <memo.936646@cix.compulink.co.uk>

> > A year ago there was discussion on sports, and somebody told
> > that he hadrules and maps for gravball. I got them from him,
> 
> Yes, that was me -- and not just map and rules, but counters for 
> you to print out and glue to the back of the first piece of 
> cardboard that you could lay your hands on.
> 
> > somehow my zipfilewas corrupted, so I don't have all maps
> 
> That's a pity. If you want, I can send it to you again (and to 
> anyone else who wants a copy).

Yes please. This topic seems to come up every 6 months or so, do you 
have a web page you could stick it on? If not, I could put it on mine.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 14:33:58 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: More EA nits

Since T4 added the fencing (with a sword, not moving hot comm units) skill,
and made such a fuss about Nobles dueling, I would have like to see what a
well dressed M-0 Sylean noble carried.

Granddad's old rapier still would have been TL-10, even if he got from his
Granddad, TL 9.  It would light, strong, hold a good edge, and be very
expensive.  Engraving, craftsmenship, like the Sylean TL 10 revolver.  For
Nobles, made by one of a few well known sword makers.  A particular sword
could be associated with various noble titles.  "The Snartbartfast Blade is
only carried by the Count (Countess) of Snartbartfast.  Ownership is passed
along with the title.  Knightly orders may have a blade that is presented
to it's members when they are knighted.  Sort of like a KofC blade, but
more functional.

What's a good solid Imperial Marine Cutlass like?  Heavier than the rapier,
keeps an edge through the Marines hitch.  Even when it's used to chop
firewood, or to pry the lids off wine crates.  Oh ya, it has to stay
looking good.  Is there an Imperial Sunburst on the bell guard, along with
the Unit insigna?

A crate of surplus Imperial Marine Cutlasses would be worth their weight in
gold (or any other material you want that they have) on a world with a TL
less than 4.  

Perhaps the cutlass a Marine receives when he musters out is an award.  Top
Marine NCO in the Battalion for that year.  Presented to officers who
complete the Advanced Ground Tactics course in the top quarter.  That sort
of thing.
These cutlasses would be engraved with the award, and perhaps the name and
unit of the owner.  The information would be on the blade or inside the
bell guard.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
"In 1991, [Vice President] Gore cited Bush's China policy as a reason he 
should be defeated for reelection, charging Bush sent his emissaries to 
toast the butchers of Tiananmen Square.'" -- Deborah Orin in the New York 
Post, March 26, 1997, the day after Gore drank champagne with Chinese 
Premier Li Peng, who helped plan the Tiananmen massacre
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:53:44 -0600
From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Sports in Imperium

>In-Reply-To: <memo.936646@cix.compulink.co.uk>
>
>> > A year ago there was discussion on sports, and somebody told
>> > that he hadrules and maps for gravball. I got them from him,
>>
>> Yes, that was me -- and not just map and rules, but counters for
>> you to print out and glue to the back of the first piece of
>> cardboard that you could lay your hands on.
>>
>> > somehow my zipfilewas corrupted, so I don't have all maps
>>
>> That's a pity. If you want, I can send it to you again (and to
>> anyone else who wants a copy).
>
>Yes please. This topic seems to come up every 6 months or so, do you
>have a web page you could stick it on? If not, I could put it on mine.

Send me a copy & I'll stick in into my Web archives as well...

 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 PGP Fingerprint: E3 3F DF 08 BE 3E 44 A0  EE A9 80 7E 22 99 CD DF
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:49:58 -0700
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 13 May 1997, Michael Solomani Mifsud wrote:
> 
> >
> > I would much rather an Arthur C. Clarke style Traveller Universe then an
> > ID4 styled one.  Reality check time.
> 
> Hmmm, and just what was that law...Oh yeah:
> 
> CLARKE'S THIRD LAW OF TECHNOLOGY AND INNOVATION:
> 
> Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
> 
>         Well, remove Jump Drive, fusion and HePLar (I just randomly
> capitalize bits:) and what have you got? certainly not Traveller.
> 
>         Remove all the handwaving, and what have you got? A rather boring
> game called 'Reality'.

<snippie>

>         I've argued this point before, but _I_ think it bears repeating.
> The soul of the game, of any game, is the magic it brings to the mind of
> the players, the wonders of going somewhere you can't get in reality, the
> new vistas it opens in your minds eye. There are stylistic differences
> between games, but all in all they are all fantasy to some extent.
> 
>         Suspending your disbelief is crucial to any of them, whether
> you're imagining fighting a troll in the dank recesses of a dungeon,
> battling Stormtroopers on some Deathstar, or hopping in your Free Trader,
> setting the coordinates, and punching the Jump drive button. I don't CARE
> about the precise details of how a jump drive works, as long as it works
> pretty much the same way each time. Consistency is the key.
> 
>         If by this attitude you don't think that I'm playing Traveller,
> well, tough...I think I am, and that's all that matters.

Amen! Well said!

I think in general, we TML's desire realism. But realism doesn't
necessarily entail slavishly limiting technological advances to only
what is feasible in the near future.

To me, realism is the building of a consistant framework that explains
the how and perhaps a bit of why future technology works the way it
does. As you say, the "HOW" is the most important to nail down in actual
published (dare I use the word?) canon. The "WHY" is less important, but
it makes for interesting discussion. Everyone knows I enjoy waving my
hands as much as the next guy, but any reasonably imaginitive GM can
come up with an interesting bit of "bullshittium".

That isn't to say putting out a supplement concentrating on the "WHY"
can't be useful. One of my favourite Traveller supplements dealt with a
lot of the WHY: The Starship Operator's Manual. It added depth and
detail to space travel.

But, as you say, consistancy is key. In the real world there are
sometimes conflicting theories to explain observed phenomena. But the
theories explain the observations, so the observations are more
important.

To tie this into the Canon debate, to me the important parts of
Traveller canon are the accepted "results". Sometimes its hard, because
sometimes different results pop up when someone is unaware of previous
information published.

For instance: Jump takes 1 week, in that one week you are unaffected by
events in realspace, and nothing can affect you. There are many ways of
explaining these results by using hyperspace concepts, alternate
dimensions, wormholes, or what have you.

Events in Traveller History are other important events, but they are a
*bit* more flexible. After all, history has been rewritten many times
here in the real world. But, the "Truth" published for the Referee's
eyes should remain consistant. That's why I worry about all this TL-15
second Imperium blundering.

So... Imperium Games needs to be aware of its history, in order to keep
current products consistant with previous assumptions and observations.
That way the Traveller Universe grows. Inconsistancy means part of the
universe "disappears". I think that's sad, because growth adds realism
and diversity, while deletion causes confusion and stagnation.

- -- 
====== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /---- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X->  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275  \
 -----------------------/ \=========== Eschew Obfuscation ===========
Technology is an extension of our hands and our feet, not our spirit.
                                    -- Filmmaker Costa-Gavras, 9/6/95

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:05:09 -0700
From: Jeff Cornish <jcornish@appiantech.com>
Subject: May THUDD; Nephraitelle Class Exploratory Trader

Here's the final (more legal and spell-checked) form of my THUDD Entry, as 
sent to Craig Berry.


Nuphraitelle class exploratory merchant ( SSDS/)
	Architect:  Jeff Cornish (jeffreyc@sprynet.com)

Tons: 4000td (SL Wedge)  Vol: 56,000 m3		Cost: 1,513MCr  (1,361MCr)
Crew: 25/31 (/HiAuto)	Pass. High/Medium: 4/10	Pass. Low: 10  ( 4 Emerg. )
Cargo: 1,900 std	Controls: Survey Std(/Bridge)	TL 12
	( 1,100 std w/ full collapsible tanks )

9 Size Rating				        2 	Jump Drive (400 std/pc fuel )	
        1 	Maneuver ( Thruster, 1000 Mw )	
2xLaser Emitters (+4) 1/4-3-2-0		        1	Power Plant Rating (4x500Mw)
     821 	Fuel ( /Scoop:1.0 /Refine:4.1)
   1621 	Fuel /w full collapsible tanks
        6 	Sandcaster ( 30 cans )
        2 	Nuclear Damper ( 30Mw )
        3 	Meson Screen (10Mw)
        0 	Black Globe
       A10 P4 J0	 Sensors
       20 	Armor, 25 Structure	

1 x Engineering Shop ( 6 std )		1 x Vehicle Shop ( 10 std )
1 x Laboratory ( 8 std )			1 x Sick Bay ( 8 std )

1 x Minimal Hangar ( 20 std craft )	2 x Spacious Hangers ( 50 std craft )

Crew Details: 3 cmd, 2 mvr, 3 elc, 5 gun, 1 scr, 6 eng, 2 crf,  2 trp, 1 
sci, 2 stw, 1 brk, 2 med	

NOTE:  I don't know how legal the "100 ton" shuttle bay is, and I haven't 
been able to work in the extra cost of the collapsible tankage <it's only 
about 1 MCr or so>, but here is my design, sans shuttle.

Starwerx Orbital Foundry is proud to present its first entry in the latest 
ISBA competition, the Nuphraitelle.  A medium sized, streamlined wedge 
hull, the Nuphraitelle is outfitted with a 2 parsec jump-drive and fuel for 
4 parsec's travel--2 in standard tankage and 2 in a pair of collapsible 
fuel bladders stowed in the middle cargo bay.

x--An interesting variant here would be a J-2x3 ship-add another pair of 
collapsible tanks, 400 dt fuel each, of course, in the cargo bay.  It'd 
reduce the available cargo space by 42 dt, and there would only be ~250 std 
of cargo when the ship was fully tanked, but you'd get another 2 parsecs 
out of the ship without refueling.

The philosophy with the Nuphraitelle is Opportunity, Capability, and 
Survival.

The Nuphraitelle's main sensor array, a Cassini Mk72 Survey package, is the 
standard among medium-sized Imperial Interstellar Scout Service vessels and 
gives the capability to survey uncharted or under-charted star systems. 
 The onboard laboratory lets the crew support a geophysical, xenobiological 
or astrophysical specialist to provide detailed analysis of the sensor 
data.

x--I chose the Survey sensor package because it _wasn't_ military.   The 
survey package has equal range, is nearly half the cost and price.  The 
only losing point is the larger volume.  Also, if the mission requires more 
Scientists, they get the High Passage cabins

Nearly half of the Nuphraitelle's volume is taken up by the three main 
cargo bays, each with a capacity of nearly 9000 cubic meters of storage, 
letting the Nuphraitelle haul impressive amounts of goods from the worlds 
it visits.

x--Okay, 8866.66 cubic meters-close enough for the glossy ads

Quarters for the crew, 10 middle passengers and 4 high passengers are 
standard, as are 10 low berths, suitable for passengers or livestock.  The 
Captain, of course, receives his own large stateroom.

The standard crew's complement, beyond the bridge crew and officers, 
includes 2 pilots for the small craft, 2 ship's troops for defense and 
security, a Science Officer, and a Broker specialist to aid the crew in 
matters of speculative trading.  2 Medical specialists and 2 Stewards round 
out the complement.

x--If more troops are required, they get the Middle Passage cabins.  The 
Broker is going to be the ship's 'Scout' who will know all relevant 
information on culture and commerce at the places the ship will land.  I 
suppose this could be done by the Captain and 1st Officer if the ship were 
smaller.

Although the Nuphraitelle's thrusters are only capable of 1-gee 
acceleration, the structure of the ship has been designed to withstand 
twice that stress.  1-gee of contragravity and streamlining make 
atmospheric interface and flight safe on any world, terrestrial or 
gas-giant.  The Nuphraitelle's redundant wilderness fueling capability can 
scoop and purify a jump's worth of fuel in less than 6 hours.

x--The combined 2-gee acceleration from the thrusters and contragrav should 
get this whale off most planets.  The if one of the 'redundant' fuel 
purifiers fails it takes 8.2 hours to process the scooped fuel.

Spacious hangers for two 50 ton shuttles have been provided, as well as 
more modest facilities for a 20 ton ship's boat.  The adjoining shuttle 
bays, with minor modifications, are capable being connected and berthing a 
100 ton J-2 scout.  The extra mission flexibility provided to the ship's 
crew in transporting cargo, passengers or handling emergency situations 
should prove invaluable.

x-Right now I'm working on the deckplans for the Nephraitelle and I am 
leaning towards an 'under-and-over' 50 std bay arrangement.  The deckplates 
between deck 3 and 4 would be removed and the bays connected that way.  Any 
comments anyone?

The Nuphraitelle is the first of Starwerx line of spacecraft and starships 
to feature "Mk3 systems automation," reducing the workload on the crew, but 
as with all Starwerx starships, redundant life-support and control systems 
are standard.  A Starwerx Mk8 'Rambler' class self defense package is 
included: 2 quad laser cannon, 2 sandcaster batteries, nuclear damper and 
meson screen.

x-I'm going to run a scenario; a Newfy vs. some small, laser-armed vessels 
(pirates?  Fighters? Laser defensats?) and see how it performs.  I'm pretty 
sure the only thing that will save her is her sandcasters.  I admit that 
the laser batts are a little weak, but this ship should be able to detect 
her foe and stay out of harms way before she should have to use them. 
 (BTW, if her batteries are combined, they're a respectable (+4) 1/6-4-3-2 
at a ROF of 100)

As the Nuphraitelle's mission profile includes long duration missions away 
from Class A and B starports, a machine shop, engineering shop and sickbay 
are present (including an emergency low berth for critically injured crew 
or passengers) .  If it should become necessary the shuttles and small 
craft should be capable of evacuating the entire ship's complement.

x-I hope this last point is never needed <evil grin>.  It would be horrible 
to have to abandon ship <evil grin> over some lost world with a thousand 
tons of cargo that you couldn't take with you <evil grin>.

As for the crewing, the jump drive, the thrusters/contragrav and the 
reactors take 2 engineers each (a senior/junior arrangement?).  The Survey 
sensor suite require 3 electronics types.  With the maintenance guy, that 
puts the ship's compliment at 10 in engineering/technical, 6 in 
gunnery/defense, 2 flight officers, and 3 in command.  Only 2 small craft 
pilots are included, but more may be required depending on the types of 
shuttles/ship's boats you use.

The included commentary was not sent to Craig Berry.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 22:30:21 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: Canon References

>From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
>I offer some useful links that describe the history of the three
>Imperia. These are other people's web pages, I take no credit for them.
(Snip)
>http://members.aol.com/sgalli5794/traveller/geonee/index.html
> - All that Geonee stuff, with a timeline that fits with 
>    other timelines and published info. Perhaps if Greg Porter
>    took up Spanish, he'd have an easier time keeping Traveller
>    history straight.

        He, he, he... thanks for the nice comment. Perhaps if Spanish became
the official Traveller language, I could stop bothering about the English
grammar... ;-)

        Carlos the Geonee-maker
        Traveller Adventures in the Far Spain

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 19:25:03 GMT
From: starwolf@sn.no (StarWolf)
Subject: Re: Captain, we'er surrounded, and they're all armed with canons

On Tue, 13 May 1997 14:44:03 -0900, Harry
<paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au> wrote:


>I'll start the ball rolling with jump drives.
>
>1. The maximum is jump six.
>
>2. Jump takes one week=20
>
>3. While in jump, any interaction with other ships in jump, or with =
normal
>space is completely immpossible.

I hate to do this but.... OK I love it :)
If my memory seres me right, in one of the Challenge issues there is a
TNS entry about a rumored breakthrough in Jump technology at a
research station (RS). If I don't remember wrong the RS was in or near
Solomani Rim sector.

I'l try to find it tomorrow, and give better reference.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Myhre                 |"Never worry about theory as long as the=20
http://home.sn.no/~starwolf | machinery does what it's supposed to do."
Universal Internet          |
            Number: 127772  |                  -- R. A. Heinlein

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 20:39:38 +0100
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: First Survey 'Errata'

Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu> asked:

<SNIPPED BY ASL>

>So, is IG _ever_ going to do something for those of us who made the mistake
>of purchasing first Survey?...
>I would be happy if they would send me either the corrected or the
>uncorrected data... I think that the
>crippling data error (LAW=GOV) for every world is significant enough that
>they should at least be willing to meet me half way.

The following is my limited knowledge of the situation and is only presented
because I'm not sure if Joe Walsh will speak up, given that it's no longer
his responsibility to represent IG in this forum...

To answer you, not exactly. A soon-to-appear M0/FS combined book will have
32 extra pages including extra rules for creating more detailed law levels
(and the missing scout deckplan). This will "solve" the FS problem. To my
knowledge, there is no 'correct' data, nor will there be any future
'corrected' data. In my personal opinion, the FS data is, er, (remembers
that he wants to continue writing for IG...) not very good.

As an aside, I thought I had been given permission to correct some parts of
it in the first part of The Long Way Home (yup, soon to be printed by IG!),
but unfortunately that was a misunderstanding, so the planetary statistics
in TLWH will have slightly different law levels and a couple of minor UWP
changes for the area in which it's set (no specifics - this isn't intended
to be a spoiler), compared to the FS data.

You can be assured that in the subsequent part, I'll stick strictly to FS
data which is totally accuuu... smeeeee...

        ERROR 1389: Disbelief overload.
        Andy's brain has suffered an unexpected General Disbelief Fault
        Rebooting...

        Installing IG Belief Driver...
        Overwriting Traveller Canon...
        Overwriting Logic Circuits...
        Insanity Test... PASS
        Command: Continue at last sentence.

You can be assured that in the subsequent part, I'll stick strictly to FS...
smee.... smeeeeg.... smeegheeeedddd...

        ERROR 1399: Brain exploded.

[Please forgive my sarcasm and apologies to anyone who hasn't seen Kryten in
Red Dwarf...]

Andy (who's at work too damned late to make much sense!)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 21:03:26 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: The collapse of the Zhunastu Corp

1100 Traveller background has no mention of Zhunastu Industries, Cleon's
tame family Megacorp. Now, I've got two suggestions as to how it
disappeared.

1) Following the assassination of Cleon IV and the following Civil War the
corporation collapsed and was absorbed by its rivals.

or

2) The Imperial Family broke up ZI and sold it to the various Megacorps in
return for shareholdings within them. After all, they had enough to worry
about running the Imperium.


Any comments/counter proposal's welcomed.

Dom

- --------------- Dom Mooney (dom@cybergoths.u-net.com)---------------
"The fall of Empire, Gentlemen, is a massive thing, however, and not easily
fought. It is dictated by a rising bureaucracy, a receding initiative, a
freezing of caste, a damming of curiousity - a hundred other factors."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Hari Seldon - Azimov's "Foundation"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:52:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Virus, an idea

> Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 14:02:01 +0100 (BST)
> From: "mark.wilkin" <aa4mwi@zen.sunderland.ac.uk>
> Subject: Virus, an idea
> 
> I had this quite funky idea for an adventure last night, as I'm probably 
> never going to be able to run it I thought I'd share and enjoy.
> ok all your PC's are viruses, one controlling a ship the others are a 
> bundle of robots. Not combat robots, cleaners, mechanics, butlers etc. 
> The semi-plot I've come up with is a mother, or two parent viruses came 
> under attack just as it/they were creating a new virus on a small 
> scout-ship, before they were destroyed some of the robots and the new 
> virus ship escaped by mis-jumping.

It took me a minute to figure out what was tickling the back of my mind as
I read this -- you've essentially reinvented the setup for Ian Banks'
_Consider Phlebas_, IMHO one of the finest works of SF ever written.  This
and _Use of Weapons_ are must-reads for any Traveller GM or SF fan.

In _CP_, it's just one thinking machine involved, but other than that it's
a dead ringer.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 16:37:36 -0500
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca>
Subject: Jump 6 Max

>>	But dosn't it depend on what you mean by a "maximum" of jump six? After
>>all, starships have been misjumping a great deal durther than that for
>>years! It is a maximum of Jump six at TL 15 (and perhaps 16 or 17).
>
>I have never seen any articles stating that jump increases at TL's higher
>than 15, in fact I have a dim memory of J-6 being tha max full stop. If
>anyone can tell me if and why I am wrong, please do so.

	Yes, jump 6 is the currently achievable maximum. But Traveller has never 
detailed tech levels past 17, so who knows what jump level the Ancients 
were capable of?

	It stands to reason that since you can accidentaly misjump up to 36 
parsecs, that with some amount of technology you should be able to make 
controlled jumps of up to 36.

K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 16:48:30 CDT
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@csci.csc.com>
Subject: Re: Future History Revisionism

> >And, of course, Don McKinney's Traveller Timeline is a valiant attempt to
> >corral all the wacky little facts and events that have been published by
> >GDW and licensees.
> 
> I check that one frequently.  It would be a definite one line reference to
> a very concise and complete timeline.

Thanks!  BTW, a MAJOR update coming shortly, I'm breaking it up by Milleu
and incorporating a lot of material given to me by TML members...

I'm also trying to get moved over to Microsoft Access, for better web pages.
I'm still looking for another copy of Milleu Zero, which was "lifted" from
my gaming material quite recently...  Sigh.

> http://www.prairienet.org/~dmckinne/timeline.txt

NO!  That's long out of date.  Try:

http://www.prairienet.org/~dmckinne/trav.html
- --
============================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist,           (217) 351-8250 x2365 = 
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL       dmckinne@csci.csc.com =
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998    =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org       (217) 469-9917 = 
============================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 23:02:18 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: IG Pricing Policy

Speaking of 4th editions:

AnyT4Supplement =A314.99 UK Softback 112 pages
Ars Magica 4th Ed =A314.99 UK Softback 272 pages

I would have felt that Ars Magica was more of a minority game (albeit a
great game).

Do I feel like I'm being milked for profits? Yep.
Am I going to do anything about it? Well, I'm using the TML as a filter to
decide what to buy!

Dom

- --------------- Dom Mooney (dom@cybergoths.u-net.com)---------------
"The fall of Empire, Gentlemen, is a massive thing, however, and not easily
fought. It is dictated by a rising bureaucracy, a receding initiative, a
freezing of caste, a damming of curiousity - a hundred other factors."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Hari Seldon - Azimov's "Foundation"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 22:34:42 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: RE: Captain, we'er surrounded, and they're all armed with canons

A hem...

Harry wrote:

>1. The maximum controlled jump is jump six.
>2. Jump takes one week, plus or minus one day
>3. While in jump, any interaction (including communication) with other
>ships in jump, or with normal space is completely impossible.

4. Jump numbers correspond to the maximum number of parsecs (3.27 ly ea)
travelled in a single jump.

Parsecs are also refered to as 'hexes' in Imperial society ;-)


- --------------- Dom Mooney (dom@cybergoths.u-net.com)---------------
"The fall of Empire, Gentlemen, is a massive thing, however, and not easily
fought. It is dictated by a rising bureaucracy, a receding initiative, a
freezing of caste, a damming of curiousity - a hundred other factors."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Hari Seldon - Azimov's "Foundation"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 22:22:49 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: A few comments on Milieu 0

At 01:13 AM 5/13/97 +0000, Glenn wrote:
>>From: Brett Fishburne <bfish@atlantech.net>
>
>At 10:47 AM 5/11/97 -0700, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
><snip>
>>>Thus a non-member world has the power to become a member of the
>>>Imperium just be deciding to do so -- no approval by the rest of
>
>>How about someone requesting admission for worlds which would prefer not to
>>be admitted?  There doesn't seem to be any check for concurence of the world
>>government itself...Just a thought.  Seems like a good plan for a game
>>scenario (or a way to put a couple of worlds a war).
>
>Good point:  all it takes for admission is the statement of a "recognized 
>representative" -- but recognized by whom?  The Imperium or the world or
both?  It 
>should be both, of course, but it's wide open to abuse.  
>
>--Glenn
>

True, true, true .... look at the Native Americans and the Europeans.

Unless both sides share the same guidelines for defining recognized
representatives, the Imperium is bound, psycho historically bound, to repeat
the events starting with 1492, Old Earth Calender.

Garry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 18:20:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Speed of Light: time dialation

   Hi

> Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 14:49:41 +1000 (EST)
> From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>

> So at 99% the speed of light we are looking at for every 1000 years on
> earth, the spacebound occupents age aprox. 430 years?

   Nope.  At 99% of lightspeed, tau = cos(asin(0.99)) = 0.141, so the
   spacebound occupants age 141 years for every 1000.  Here is a short
   table:

   Speed     Tau
   --------- ------
   0c        1
   0.1c      0.995
   0.5c      0.866
   0.9c      0.436
   0.99c     0.141
   0.999c    0.045
   0.9999c   0.014
   0.99999c  0.0044
   0.999999c 0.0014
   1c        0

> At the speed of light they would not age at all (time stops).

   Yes.

> Beyond the Speed of Light barrier I would move backwards in time (?)

   Beyond lightspeed, tau becomes imaginary (as in complex), not
   negative.  What happens at these speeds is that time becomes two
   dimensional, whatever that means.  Note, however, that there is no
   mechanical process that can make you reach lightspeed, so you can't
   go faster than light, except by the "fiction" part of "science
   fiction".

   -Rob

   PS, The "gamma" mentioned by other posters is equal to 1/tau, except
   in those post where it was inadvertantly used to mean tau.  To get
   the dialated time, you multiply the stationary time by tau, or divide
   it by gamma.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1314
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, May 13 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1315



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Contact: The Suerrat (Biology)
Contact: The Suerrat (History)
First Survey error's?
RE: Crisis on Infinite Earth
Re: Jump vs Gate/Wormhole Tech.
Aurelian Industries May THUDDD Entry (LONG)
Eris
Re: A Question of Length: Post or WWW?
Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 17:52:04 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Contact: The Suerrat (Biology)

[More info on culture and societal quirks is needed, but I'm working
 through the history first to see what effect that might have had on
 the Suerrat outlook and character.  Your comments are appreciated!]


Contact: The Suerrat
Introduction & Biology

(c) 1997 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett
for eventual submission to IG's JTAS magazine
submitted to TML for your comments and discussion


Introduction:

	In the late 26th century pre-Imperial (c. 2000 AD Terran dating),
some Solomani biologists moved to extend the genus Homo to include their
local kin, such as Pan troglodytes, the chimpanzee.  Their effort might
be viewed as prelude to Solomani contact, some centuries later, with the
Suerrat: for, indeed, the natives of Ilelish bear as much similarity to
those primitive Terran relatives as to the more mainstream line which
found the stars and founded the Second and Third Imperia.  Whether these
similarities spring from a lost homid precursor, genetic manipulation by
the Ancient of pongid stock, or evolution in situ on Ilelish is at this
writing uncertain.  Suerrat are still members of genus Homo ("Homo
suerrensis" in taxonomic parlance), and interfertile with most other
varieties of humaniti, but the offspring of such unions are most often,
mule-like, sterile. 


Biology:

	Like almost all the minor races of humaniti, the Suerrat merely
ring changes on the familiar theme of the human frame, mostly determined
by differences in the homeworld.  Ilelish (Milieu 1100: 2907 E674983-A Hi
In 204) circles a type F4 V star at a distance of 2.8 AU, giving a local
year nearly four times the standard one (rotating every 16h29m15s, Ilelish
experiences it as over 2,120 local days: the Suerrat term for "year"
translates as "five-score scores [of days]").  Orbital eccentricity and
axial tilt are minimal, yielding a climate at temperate latitudes slightly
warmer (16 C) than Terran standard.  Land predominates slightly (55%) over
oceans, but the planet's rapid rotation and consequently vigorous weather
keep the continents well-watered -- vital for the health of the planet's
well-known jungles. 

	It was in those equatorial rain forests that the Suerrat people
evolved.  Ilelish is smaller than Earth (10,240 km in diameter), though
denser (1.08 standard): one would imagine its 0.86 g gravity field would
produce a tall, lithe people like the Zhodani.  But the arboreal existence
of the proto-Suerrat, tied to tree-tops, has kept them smaller in frame. 
As the accompanying illustration shows, Suerrat are short (1.6 m
average) but stocky (80 kg), with more muscle-mass per meter than either
Vilani or Solomani.  They are both dark in color (ranging from chocolate
to true ebony) and covered with fine, straight, dark hair to protect
against the short-wave radiation of their sun.  Suerrat seem bracycephalic
("broad-headed") to many humans, and have wider hips to compensate for the
corresponding difficulties in childbirth.  This wider foundation, tied to
their brachiating adaptations, gives Suerrat a kind of rolling "sailors'
walk" that amuses some observers. 

	Suerrat arms are far longer in relation to their legs than for
most humans, since they remained brachiators, never descending to the
savannah but swinging from branch to branch above the forest floor.  And
that arboreal cradle has kept their feet fairly near their hands in flex-
ibility and utility: the hallux ("big toe") is fully opposable with the
nearest two digits.  Thanks to this tree-climbing inheritance, Suerrat
think quite comfortably in three dimensions, their vehicle and starship
positions make almost as much use of the feet as hands, and their
numbering system is "vigintisimal," base-20 (thus their place value
system proceeds from ones, to twenties (usually translated as "scores"),
to four-hundreds, to eight-thousands, and so on).  Suerrat find Imperial
citizens' feet disgusting, and thus are often glad to be shielded from
them by our "odd" habit of wearing shoes. 

	As mentioned earlier, the Suerrat skull and facial features are
broader and flatter than many humans'.  The harsh sun has led to their
eyes being somewhat deep-set, with notable brow ridges.  Eye color tends
towards the darker shades, brown and gray.  Though the nose is more
prominent, the sense of smell does not seem to be hyper-developed. 
Suerrat have 32 teeth in the standard Solomani dentition pattern: their
diet is thoroughly omnivorous, though they tend to be "snackers" rather
than relying on set meals.  The structure of the Suerrat skull and jaw
render their lips less flexible than many humans', giving their language
its stereotypical "breathy" quality.  The language is largely free of
plosives (the so-called "Bronx," named by a Solomani linguistic
cataloger, being the single exception). 

	Ilelish's shorter day has produced a typical Suerrat sleep cycle
of 6 hours sleeping followed by 10 or 11 waking: they spend a slightly
higher fraction of their time asleep than the typical Solomani or
Vilani, and indeed find it difficult to adapt to the standard Imperial
24-hour cycle.  Normally they break it into two halves, each of 5 hours
sleep and 7 hours waking, but this pleases neither the Suerrat nor, all
too often, the Imperial manager acclimated to eight-hour shifts.  Perhaps
as a result of this shorter day, or perhaps as a chance cultural feature,
Suerrat tend to be far more impulsive and abrupt in their plans and
actions.  The civil-service bureaucracy under which they have lived for
much of their history is a deliberate and carefully-constructed attempt
to circumvent this racial hastiness, though the planet's low law level
also indicates the ease of arranging occasional "expediting."  The
system has served well in general, with the obvious and drastic exception
of the Ilelish Revolt.  Still, the dichotomy of a people ever urgent but
often sleeping has not been lost on many a would-be comedian. 

	One of the most major variations in the Suerrat physique, however,
is the total lack of the perpetually present of the sex drive that has
influenced so many human societies.  Instead, Suerrat females experience
estrus (receptivity to sexual reproduction) only about four times a
Suerrat year.  They signal this readiness with physiological changes:
increases in body fat in the secondary sexual characteristic (breasts
and buttocks), flushed skin (particularly in the genital area), and
release of pheremones to signal availability to Suerrat males.  If a
pregnancy occurs, gestation takes about nine standard months, almost
always resulting in a single birth (twins, let alone higher multiple
births, are exceedingly rare).  Estrus will typically then not re-occur
for about an Ilelish year (four standard).  But females not in estrus, and
males not in the presence of a ready female, are largely free of the
sexual awareness and energy which have charged the social development of
other human races. 

	Indeed, more conservative members of Suerrat society often find
Imperials' constant awareness of and receptivity to sex organs and
activities rather disgusting.  However, a fair fraction (about one-third)
of Suerrat males are capable of detecting the constant "estrus" state of
Imperial women, and thus find them both fascinating and arousing.  Such
cases can prove diplomatically embarassing, since the Suerrat thus
sometimes prove "all hands" in more ways than one!

	Of course, prostitutes in Suerrat society do often take various
substances to induce estrus-like states and thus encourage clients.  And
females serving in military or other regimented institutions will often
dose themselves to completely prevent estrus.  But the limited presence of
sex and sex signals in Suerrat society causes important differences from
the Imperial model.  Equality of the sexes came far sooner to Ilelish than
to many human worlds and cultures, and the motivation for a whole span of
personal crimes is absent.  Suerrat treat clothing as functional more than
moral, another way in which many human societies strike them as odd. 


Next: Suerrat History

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 17:53:43 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Contact: The Suerrat (History)

Contact: The Suerrat
History -- Beginnings and Ziru Sirka

(c) 1997 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett
for eventual submission to IG's JTAS magazine
submitted on TML for your comments and discussion


History:

Beginnings:

	The Ancient installation which introduced and nurtured the
proto-Suerrat on Ilelish was located in that planet's heavy equatorial
jungles, the environment which has shaped the species ever since.  Luckily
for the Suerrat themselves, the Ancients there were killed not by the
typical planet-wracking catastrophe of asteroid bombardment or other heavy
weapons fire, but, as far as evidence indicates, a virulent plague which
rapidly snuffed out all Ancient personnel.  The fast-growing jungle did
much of the work in destroying the base itself, such that it was not until
fairly late in Suerrat history that they themselves discovered evidence of
earlier visitors.  That very evidence, though, was what catapulted the
race starward. 

	Large carnivores roamed the ground and low levels of Ilelish's
rain forests, and so the proto-Suerrat, whether by accident or design,
found their homes in the forest canopy.  Those fearsome beasts, though,
met the same fate as the "megafauna" on many another human-inhabited
world: the twin discoveries of technology and tactics soon rendered the
beasts extinct outside of fairy-tales, and the Suerrat themselves assumed
the top position of the food pyramid.  Hunting bands soon coalesced into
tribes, tribes into peoples.  Agriculture developed, first as primitive
cultivation of fruit-trees and air-plants, then as full-scale field
cultivation in muddy river deltas and at the forest margins, for the
Suerrat themselves remained a people of the jungle. 

	But jungles can prove far more vulnerable to environmental insult
than other biomes, as many human races have found to their sorrow.  And
so, in -9540 Imperial, when the power and potential of the Industrial
Revolution began to become apparent on Ilelish despite its dangers, the
ruling Council of All Trees (a sort of United Nations for the then
medieval-level Suerrat) forced a move of most such operations outside the
jungles and surrounding fields, ultimately to the planet's temperate
regions.  Rapidly the equatorial regions of the planet became the seat of
the race's wealthy capitalists and governmental institutions, while the
"middle class" gravitated to the more economically (if not climatically) 
hospitable temperate and even arctic zones.

	As the planet's demographic patterns shifted and the comfortable
jungles emptied out (apart from the occasional invasion or other uprooting
of government), many of the remaining idle rich began to practice their
hobbies, or employ others to practice hobbies for them.  Many sciences
began to catch up with the industry the impulsive Suerrat had produced,
and the science of archaeology found its first opportunities in the
now-open original homelands of the race.  Imagine their surprise when
they unearthed fragments of the Ancient installation, still sturdy after
hundreds of millenia.  It was impossible to determine who the folk were
who had built the facility, but it soon became evident that these
non-humans, whoever they were, came from beyond the planet itself.  Those
same equatorial lands soon spawned rocketports, and probes and manned
expeditions soon investigated Ilelish's satellites and neighbors in the
system.  The arboreal Ilelish adapted well to low- and zero-gee
operations, and soon much industry had moved off-planet. 

	Further fragments of Ancient occupation on other worlds in the
system indicated that the mysterious Visitors came from beyond the system. 
And so, in -8939 Imperial, the first slower-than-light probe departed for
the Ullaresh system, one parsec away.  Decades later word came that it had
found a habitable planet, and the race was on.  Generation ships departed,
forced by their very size to travel slower than the probes, to carry eager
colonists to the new worlds.  By -8600 Imperial the Suerrat had colonized
every habitable planet within five parsecs, and Suerrat industries and
space colonies were developing the others.  More evidence of the Visitors
turned up here and there, but no definite evidence to point the race in
any specific direction. 


Vilani Contact, and Conquest:

	Of course, by -8900 the infant Vilani economic sphere had reached
five parsecs in radius, and their explorations had extended sixty parsecs
from home, nearly touching the coreward border of what is now Ilelish
sector.  In short order, in -8564, Vilani merchant/scouts contacted the
small interstellar polity held by the Suerrat.  The Vilani had encountered
the Geonee some centuries earlier, but a meeting with yet another human
race with interstellar holdings still startled them.  They were
simultaneously astonished and relieved to find that this expansion had
taken place wholly without jump drive.  Eventually, of course, some Vilani
merchant sold the Suerrat the plans for the jump-1 drive, and the next era
of Suerrat expansion began. 

	For nearly three millenia the Suerrat then had their corner of
space, nestled in the arm of the Great Rift, entirely to themselves.
Scores of worlds were settled as the jump drive extended Suerrat territory
some ten to thirty parsecs from the homeworld.  By -6000 the Vilani had
assembled an economic sphere sixty parsecs in radius, bringing the
holdings of the Naasirka bureau a good three-quarters of the way through
what are now Gushemege and Dagudashag sectors.  Vilani scouts and
merchants from Sharurshid, particularly those engaged in lucrative trade
with the Geonee and the other minor races that bureau had discovered, ran
trailing of the Suerrat worlds into Zarushagar.  But Ilelish and Verge
sectors, limited as they were by the Great Rift, and much of the three
Vilani sectors the bureaux had not yet developed, were the Suerrat
playground.

	Sharurshid's rampant expansion galled some of the more ambitious
Naasirka corporate lords, and they began to feed hemmed in: to trailing by
that companionable competitor, to coreward by the Vilani home worlds, to
spinward by the trackless Great Rift... and to rimward by the Suerrat
dominion.  Conflicts erupted between the two sides over trading rights,
technology patents, allegations of piracy, and, finally, the Suerrat
desire to obtain the new jump-2 drive used by Vilani military and
government vessels.  Naasirka whole-heartedly supported the initiation of
the Consolidation Wars in -5400, and Vilani forces steam-rollered into
Suerrat space.  The initial war lasted for two centuries, with regular
flare-ups throughout the Consolidation Wars period (which lasted until
- -4045). 

	Naasirka made up for lost time and space with a vengeance: the
Suerrat of Gushemege and Dagudashag were ruthlessly exterminated, their
colonies uprooted and replaced with Vilani homes and businesses.  Much of
Ilelish sector itself was "cleansed," and it was only the efforts of
Sharurshid, perhaps, that preserved the Suerrat people from utter
extinction.  In -5013, that bureau insisted on, and received, an
extension of the bureaux-neutral space that gave all three gov-
ernment-corporations access to lucrative areas of the proto-Ziru-Sirka
(the core worlds, the long passage to Mendan, the fertile worlds around
Sylea, and the many minor human homeworlds rimward) to include the
long-developed and lucrative worlds of the Suerrat home cluster.  In re-
turn, to allow for Naasirka expansion, Sharurshid gave up areas of space
around Mika (Antares) and in rimward Mikadira (Old Expanses), in the
so-called "Bright Star Exchange".  [See the map on p. 11 of "Vilani &
Vargr" to see the resulting distributions of space.]  Of course, the
virtual end to Vilani exploration in -4045 put an end to even those small
windows for Naasirka.  The Suerrat of Ilelish subsector and a scant few
other worlds were spared -- but they would never forget the worlds that
had once been theirs. 

	The Suerrat suffered under the Vilani yoke for over 1500 years. 
The technology permitted them was harshly restricted.  The unique
foodstuffs of the Ilelish rainforest which had nourished the Suerrat
people were harvested by Naasirka for luxury exports.  Sharurshid's
seeming act of kindness revealed itself purely as a calculated business
move, to allow access to Ilelish lumber, minerals, and cultural products. 
Vilani overseers, obsessed as ever on efficiency, worked their factories
on their own 32-hour day with its own set of incompatibilities to the
Suerrat circadian rhythm.  The Vilani caste system grated, too, on the
traditionally free-wheeling Suerrat.  The Vilani stereotype of the "lazy
Suerrat" dates largely from the friction of this period.  Even as the
Ziru Sirka decayed into civil wars and provincial revolts, control over
the Suerrat remained rigid: with the border poised on the very edge of the
Great Rift, no worlds remained beyond to support insurrections.

	And then, in -2220, the Solomani arrived.

- ---------------

Still to come:
	The Solomani liberation
	The Long Night
	Contact with the Third Imperium
	Consolidation Wars, Redux
	The Ilelish Revolt

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 16:09:15 -0700
From: "Rob Gillingham" <Farpoint@netcom.ca>
Subject: First Survey error's?

well this is the first i've heard of bugs in FS can someone explain
what they were.. so i can TRY and fix... things before my game
get's too messed up!



				- Rob

Farpoint@netcom.ca

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:34:39 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: RE: Crisis on Infinite Earth

On Tue, 13 May 1997, K.C. Komosky wrote:

Your reply is noted.  As I said, I was in "rant mode" just letting off
steam.  Traveller is still the best for as-accurate-as-can-be technology.
Just thought an overhaul may help - may not.

> Michael aka Solomani wrote:
> 
> >Warning - I am about to enter rant mode - prepare yourself.
> 
> 	Well, I'm in an arguing kind of mood (being in the midst of an election 
> campaign will do that to ya), so...
> 
> >Hmmm, after the recent discussion on "canon" of Traveller, and my normal
> >day to day observations of the list, I am getting worried.  I believe that 
> >Traveller is heading the way of Dungeons and Dragons.  It seems more and
> >more things are being created within Traveller which are more suited for a
> >a Fantasy game then a Sci-Fi game.  There's a lot of hand waving on many
> >issues, where things are explained as "it just works".
> >
> >First thing on my Hit List is the whole Jump system, most already know
> >what my views are concerning this.
> 
> 	"Traveller is HEADING towards being a Fantasy game", and you mention Jump 
> drives as the culprit? I'm afraid to tell you that Jump drives have been 
> around since 1977. It 'aint "heading" anywhere.
> 
> 	Now after I just wrote a big long defense of the Traveller Canon, I'll 
> repeat myself. Jump drives, as written, are an inherent part of Traveller. 
> If you don't like them, fine. By al means, go ahead and use an alternate 
> FTL system from FF&S, or make up your own, but that isn't Traveller.
> 
> >Second, is the whole "Virus" episode.  Can't say I really liked this idea
> >- "oh no, not another dark age."  Also, is this sort of lifeform even
> >plausiable?
> 
> 	As you no doubt know, a lot of people agree with you. Thats why T4 has 
> pretty much ignored the whole TNE setting. So if you don't like it, then 
> fine.
> 	
> >Also a few other niggling things, like fusion drives and Heplar's.
> 
> 	HEPLAR isn't realistic? It was way too realistic for me.
> 
> >I am probably alone in this, but Traveller seems to be heading the same
> >way as a lot of modern sci-fi generally is (including shows like Trek and
> >b5) - its just plain fantasy, no basis in any science whatsoever.  The
> >greatest, and I dare say only appeal to me of Traveller was its
> >foundation in science.  I just wanted to know if anyone else felt the same
> >way?
> 
> 	You're not totally alone, but...
> 
> 	It all comes down to suspension of disbelief. As long as the scientific 
> innacuracies aren't so obvious that they hit you in the face (like the 
> shows you mentioned), then I'm happy. As long as I, a reasonably educated, 
> scientifically mined individual, can accept a given piece of technology at 
> first glance, I could care less that if you closely look at the laws of 
> thermodynamics and start doing all kinds of  calculations, thruster plates 
> wouldn't work.
> 
> 	To tell you the truth, until I bought FF&S I had never though of that 
> problem about thruster plates (and I've been around since CT). And I still 
> could care less because of that fact.
> 
> >I would much rather an Arthur C. Clarke style Traveller Universe then an
> >ID4 styled one.  Reality check time.
> 
> 	But ask yourself which is Traveller closer to? And I would much rather 
> have the Traveller universe as currently written than have it ruined by 
> some misguided attempt make it more scientifically accurate.
> 
> 
> K.C. Komosky
> umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca
> 
> 
> 


Peace,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


"Skepticism, like chastity, should not be relinquished too readily."
  - George Santayana

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:58:12 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Jump vs Gate/Wormhole Tech.

On Mon, 12 May 1997, Leonard Erickson wrote:

I am glad someone who has something to do with science responded :)

> Actually, the methods of FTL break down into a lot more than 2 types.
> 
> 1. FTL in "real" space. Somehow you just go FTL but you are essentially
>    in normal space and can see and be seen. Star Trek uses this.
> 2. "Hyperspace". You go into a hyperspace where distances travelled
>    correspond to much greater distances in normal space.
> 3. "Jump" you exit normal space and reenter at a point greatly
>    seperated from your starting point. Normally there's no time lag
>    between entry and exit.
> 4. "Warp" you warp space until your start and end points are identical.
> .... etc
> 

Agreed, I ignored these because there all pretty unexplainable
compared to wormholes and Alcubierre warps.  Atleast these have *some*
foundation in our current level of science/Tech knowledge and ability.

> There is another equally "possible" solution. The Alcubierre warp
> drive. It essentially destroys space-time in front of the ship and
> creates it behind the ship. Or you can think of it as creating a wave
> in spacetime which the ship rides like a surfboard.

I am reading his paper at the momment, so can not comment on it.  I am
aware that his work has been touted as a possibility for all us sci-fi
buffs:)

> The two big problems with wormholes are that while we have ideas about
> how to enlarge and stabilize them we have no ideas as to how to
> *create* them, at least not creating ones with widely seperated ends,
> and controlling *where* the ends are.

True, I get the impression though that they are "fairly" common (I
hesitate to use that word).  So the problem comes down to being able to
locate, stabilise and manipulate them.

Also, I have heard that it *could* be possible for a highly advanced
Civilisation to pull a wormhole out of the quantum foam of space.  Once
again, higly theoritical, there all *maybes*, but atleast there are
*maybe*, the system currently in use in Traveller is a no-way at our
current level of understanding.

> The few proposals for creating wormholes have them formed with the ends
> close together. You then have to *move* the ends to where you want them.
> But this opens up the possibility of time travel.... Read Forward's
> book "Timemaster" for details.

Nature abhores time machines.  I think Hawking's said that.  Its true that
you can use a wormhole to make a time machine, of course not in the Dr. 
Who sense, but a Time Machine none the less.  It is  also likely (and I
tend to agree) that the moment a wormhole becomes a time machine, it will
destroy itself.  This way we get no unsolvable parradox.

Is Forward's book for laymen? - I am not a physicist, so will have
difficulty reading it if it's written for physicists.

> It doesn't *dis*-agree all that badly, and has the advantage of having
> limits such that time travel (an inescapable consequence of FTL) is
> very, very difficult.

Thats fair enougth, but if I have Traveller's jump field concept on one
side and the wormhole *theory* on the other, I would rather go with
wormholes.

Thats way I raised the whole idea on TML, I wanted a reality check, I
wanted people like you to try and debunk wormholes or defend the Traveller
system to really test the wormhole idea.  Thanks.

Peace,

Michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


"Skepticism, like chastity, should not be relinquished too readily."
  - George Santayana

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 16:59:18 -0700
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: Aurelian Industries May THUDDD Entry (LONG)

Aurelia Downport, Sylea (Sylean News Service) - Aurelian Industries, a
privately-held shipbuilding concern headquartered in the Wardn barony of
Sylea, today unveiled its entry into the current THUDDD competition for a
new type-standardized Exploratory Merchant Ship class.  The Cristobal Colon
class Exploratory Cruiser, Mercantile (ECM) continues the Aurelian
Industries tradition of innovative solutions for complex starship problems.

At first glance, the Cristobal appears to be little more than a reworked
version of the famous Aurelian Industries Marco Polo class long-range scout
ship.  While the two ships share many features and components, the two
classes are quite different.  The Cristobal carries enough room for
corporate researchers or troubleshooters, as well as passengers, but still
has room for nearly 200 tons of cargo.  The potentially-threatening heavy
wepaonry of the Marco Polo has been downgraded to a less-intimidating
defensive suite, which still gives the Cristobal the firepower it needs to
discourage trouble before it happens.  The defenses of the Marco Polo are
largely retained, and special dispensation has allowed Aurelian Industries
to mount a Meson Screen on the Cristobal.  While not proof against relic
Meson attacks, the screen will allow the ship to quickly remove itself from
danger, without adversely impacting the final cost of the vessel.

The interior of the Cristobal is also a far cry from the Marco Polo.  While
Imperial Navy and Scout Service crews are used to tight quarters, Aurelian
Industries realizes that the well-paid professionals of today's merchant
marine need a certain level of comfort to be able to perform well and make
their companies prosper.  For this reason, each crewman is allocated his
own stateroom.  Additional entertainment facilities, in the form of two
10-ton lounges, have also been added to the ship to maintain morale during
long voyages of market discovery.

The realities of these long journeys require that the Cristobal be as
self-supporting as possible.  For that reason, the vessel is equipped with
many additional facilities.  A machine shop, equipped with the finest
high-tech Imperial tools, can fabricate nearly any part the vessel may
need, allowing the ship to perform major repairs (short of an overhaul)
without the services of a starport.  The human element also needs to be
maintained, which is why the Cristobal is equipped with two
fully-functional sickbays.  There are also 20 low berths on board, which
can be used to carry replacement crew or passengers, or reserved for
wounded crew whose injuries cannot be tended to with the ship's facilities
(an unlikely possibility).

There is also provision for up to 20 Mission Specialists to be carried on
the Cristobal; expert economic analysts and trade negotiators who can make
the difference between a successful expedition or a failed one.  When
making followup visits to an already-explored region, these rooms can be
used to carry 20 high passengers instead, or even 40 medium passengers.
Similarly, accomodations are provided for 12 security specialists to guard
against treachery by newly-contacted customers, and to provide internal
order during a long voyage.  Again, when making followup visits to an
already-explored region, these rooms can be used to carry 12 high
passengers instead, or even 24 medium passengers.

Like the Marco Polo, the Cristobal has two separate hangars for 30-ton
Ship's Boats.  These craft can be used for landings, system exploration or
even (given enough time) wilderness refueling of the mother ship.  The
Ship's Boats are not provided, but can be easily obtained from many fine
small-craft manufacturers.  Any vessel of 30 tons or less can be used, or
any combination totalling 30 tons, for each of the two hangars.  In
addition, with the Ship's Boat away on a mission either of the hangars can
be used as impromptu meeting areas for large meetings or other ceremonies,
or even for a pickup game of Grav Ball.

While the Marco Polo carries external grapples for six 100-ton Scout Ships,
the Cristobal carries three 200-ton grapples.  These grapples can be used
for any vessel of 200 tons or less, and the ship's drives and fuel loads
are optimized to handle the ship's mass (2000 tons) plus the mass of up to
600 tons of carried vessels.  Aurelian Industries also provides two
complementary auxillary craft to fill these 200-ton holes; the Amerigo
Vespucci class Auxilliary Far Trader, and the Santo Domingo class
Auxilliary Cargo Carrier.

Based on the same 200-ton streamlined box hull, the Amerigo and the Santo
both extend the cargo capacity of the Cristobal, and allow the exploration
team leader a wider range of exploration options.  With the jump-2 Amerigo,
the team leader can widen his exploration area quickly, covering an entire
cluster of worlds in one third the time a normal exploratory cruiser would
require.  With the Santo, the team leader is able to pick up and deliver
more cargo to a world's surface, or even refuel his mother ship more
quickly.  The auxilliary vessels are optional, but provide a set of much
more flexible and powerful exploratory options.  The auxilliaries can also
be easily upgraded with military-quality sensors and even weapons systems,
for those regions of space where pirates and other dangers make firepower
an important trading tool.



Linus Ishigli
VPMarCom, Aurelian Industries



- -------------------------------------------------------
(QSDS 1.5, and the Big Book of Hulls for the Cristobal)
(Prices adjusted appropriately.  Void where Prohibited)
- -------------------------------------------------------
Cristobal Colon Class Exploratory Cruiser, Mercantile
Hull : 2000Td Close USL  Volume : 36,400m^^3      Cost: 1108.56Mcr
Crew : 56                Psgrs  : 20             Low : 20
Cargo: 170Td             Control: Mil/Fib(Bdg)   TL  : 12
9 Size                      03 Jump (260Td/Pc Fuel)
                            02 Maneuver (Thrust Plates)
3x 6-lsr bty (+4)1/5-3-3-0  02 Power (3x1000Mw)
4x Missile Barbette (+4)    812.1 Td Fuel (Scoop, Refine 20)
   (20 ready missiles,      2 Meson Screen
    control 16 missiles)    6 Sandcaster (180 cans)
                            3 Nuclear Damper
2x 30-ton Minimal Hangar    Sensors: A10 P4 J10
3x 200-ton Grapples         Armor 20  Structure 28

Special Features:
Engineering Shop
Vehicle Shop
2 Laboratories
2 Sickbays
2 10-ton Lounge facilities

Crew Requirements:
8 Engineering, 2 Electronics, 2 Maneuver, 7 Gunnery, 10 Screens, 2 Flight
Crew, 12 Troops, 8 Command Crew, 3 Stewards, 2 Medics, 20 passengers or
Mission Specialists (all in individual small staterooms, 76 available)

     --------------------------------------------
     Amerigo Vespucci Class Auxilliary Far Trader
     Hull : 200Td Box SL  Volume : 2,800m^^3      Cost: 60.06475Mcr
     Crew : 3             Psgrs  : 7/14          Low : 5
     Cargo: 94Td          Control: Mil/Fib(Bdg)  TL  : 12

     8 Size                      02 Jump (20Td/Pc Fuel)
                                 02 Maneuver (Thrust Plates)
                                 01 Power (110Mw)
                                 41.2 Td Fuel (Scoop, Refine 5)
                                 0 Meson Screen
                                 0 Sandcaster (0 cans)
                                 0 Nuclear Damper
                                 Sensors: A1 P3 J0
                                 Armor 10  Structure 10

     Crew Requirements:
     1 Engineering, 1 Maneuver/Command, 1 Steward in 3 small staterooms.
     There are 7 additional small staterooms for 14 medium or 7 high
     passengers.
     --------------------------------------------
     Santo Domingo Class Auxilliary Cargo Carrier
     Hull : 200Td Box SL  Volume : 2,800m^^3      Cost: 40.79725Mcr
     Crew : 2             Psgrs  : 0             Low : 0
     Cargo: 161Td         Control: Mil/Fib(Bdg)  TL  : 12

     8 Size                      00 Jump (0Td/Pc Fuel)
                                 02 Maneuver (Thrust Plates)
                                 01 Power (110Mw)
                                 1.2 Td Fuel (Scoop, Refine 5)
                                 0 Meson Screen
                                 0 Sandcaster (0 cans)
                                 0 Nuclear Damper
                                 Sensors: A1 P3 J0
                                 Armor 10  Structure 10

     Crew Requirements:
     1 Engineering, 1 Maneuver/Command
- ------------------------------------------------

Steven T. Charlton

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 19:02:50 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Eris

Eris, 

I sent you a second message as you requested.  Did you not get that 
one too?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 19:02:51 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: A Question of Length: Post or WWW?

> I have two files, one (7.5K) on Suerrat biology and culture, and another
> (8.5K) covering their history from origins to the end of the Ziru Sirka.
> What is our current TML "netiquette" regarding large files?  Should I post
> them here, or put them in my webspace and merely provide a URL?

Post them here, but put (long) in the title to warn people.

Kenneth. 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 19:02:52 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth

> Second, is the whole "Virus" episode.  Can't say I really liked this idea
> - "oh no, not another dark age."  Also, is this sort of lifeform even
> plausiable?

I didn't like Virus either, but here's an interesting way to look at 
it.

You know, Traveller has some of its roots in Asimov's Foundation 
series.  If you haven't read that, the main subject of the series is 
the stellar empire, and we watch it crest and fall over several 
thousand years.

We don't even follow one character throughout.  We follow the ages of 
the empire.

And in the series, the empire is great.  Then, we read another 
section of the book, and the empire falls some years later.

Even the first emperor in the book was called Cleon.

Given this, you can think of the Virus era as just like what happens 
in the book.

I bet the phoenix will rise from the flame somewhere down the road.

Kenneth.

> 
> Also a few other niggling things, like fusion drives and Heplar's.
> 
> I am probably alone in this, but Traveller seems to be heading the same
> way as a lot of modern sci-fi generally is (including shows like Trek and
> b5) - its just plain fantasy, no basis in any science whatsoever.  The
> greatest, and I dare say only appeal to me of Traveller was its
> foundation in science.  I just wanted to know if anyone else felt the same
> way?
> 
> I would much rather an Arthur C. Clarke style Traveller Universe then an
> ID4 styled one.  Reality check time.
> 
> 
> 
> c'ya hate to be ya,
> 
> michl
> 
> electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/
> 
> 
> A learned man is an idler who kills time by study
> 
> 
> 
> 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1315
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, May 13 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1316



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Canon, no canon
RE: Open fire - All Canons
Re: IG Pricing Policy
Re: Jump vs Gate/Wormhole Tech.
Re: [off topic] Second Law of Thermo
Re: Crisis on Infinite Earths
Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth
Re: Traveller Jumpspace Wormhole Theory
Core Expedition dates
First Contact?
Re: Captain, we'er surrounded, and they're all armed with c
RE: Ship Economics - Making a buck!
Re: MAJOR PROBLEM WITH QSDS/FFS
Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 19:55:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Canon, no canon

   Hi.

> Date: Mon, 12 May 97 21:34:59 -0500
> From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
 
>> 	But seriously, SURE there is a Traveller canon. Look, I have a whole
>> pile  of CT books and modules lying around. And you know what, I still
>> get a hell  of a lot of use out of 'em. And, IG and MM willing, I will
>> still be able to  use them for a long time to come.

> Sorry, K.C., that's not canon.  Canon is LAW.  What you are
> describing are game books and modules, at most *suggested* rules of
> behavior.  Over the past 20 years I've bought lots of those books, and I
> never found one LAW in any of them...lot's of rules, no laws.
 
   Nope.  Canon is a greek word meaning measuring stick, in particular,
   a measuring stick by which other measuring sticks are compared.  The
   length of the canon may be arbitrary, but the point is that it makes
   a standard for comparison.  The word is today somewhat obscure, and
   is currently used mainly in ecclesiastical, literary, and
   mathematical circles.  When computer programmers use the word
   "standard" as a noun, they are talking about a canon.  In English,
   the words standard and canonical have almost identical meanings.

   The list of books making up any codex which wants to call itself a
   "Bible" is a canon.  The ecclesiastical laws which do not vary from
   diocese to diocese are called canon laws.  The list of works that all
   scholars agree to be written by Shakespear is a canon.  And, most
   relevant to this list, any body of work that a Trav author wants to
   be consistent with is a canon.

   Obviously, a canon is good for some things and not good for others. 
   Whenever you have issues of cross compatability and self consistency,
   canon becomes important.  Where such issues are missing, canon is of
   no importance, except, perhaps, to the excessively tidy-minded.

   I'm being meticulous about this because, every once in a while on this
   list, the word canon seems to pick up a perjorative sense for some
   reason.

   When the word canon was first used on this list many years ago, its
   user gave it a definition: any of the history or background published
   by GDW.  It was an issue way back then, because much of DGP's "new"
   stuff was difficult to reconcile with what came before.  Now, canon
   is a hot issue once again because much of the new T4 stuff
   contradicts what DGP has produced.  (Though none of it contradicts
   the old GDW, final-edition, little black books, as far as I can see.) 
   Pure speculation: I think that the reason for this MAY be that Marc
   Miller was not involved in much of the DGP (or TNE) work, and may not
   know or care much about it.  But perhaps I'm just projecting my own
   views onto our quiet author. 8^)

> Marc, Loren, nor Frank never dropped by to bless or damn my games. They
> never required an orthodoxy test when I laid my money down. They never
> threatened to take back their books if I didn't follow their rules.  ;->

   The issue of canon is not whether something is right or wrong, but
   whether it is consistent with something or not.  If someone tells you
   that an adventure, or ship design system, or historical essay you
   wrote violates canon, he is not damning you.  He is making an
   objective statement about the compatability of your work with what is
   widely accepted.  Whether this objective statement is relevant or not
   is another issue.

> The way I see things, when things don't fit together it's *your* job to
> work it all out.

   The whole point to having a canon, of course, is so we don't have to
   work it all out every time a new rule-book is made.  It's a time and
   effort saving convention.

> So KC, I propose, you play your way, I'll play it mine, and everyone else
> can do the same.  You can be as orthodox as you like, I can be as heretical
> as I like, and everyone else can decide for themselves. Deal?

   Well, you seem to be confusing orthodoxy with canon; they are two
   different things.  But besides this semantic quibble, I have a
   problem with what you seem to be saying: "I can work at Trav as hard
   as I want, and you can work at Trav as hard as I want.  Deal?"

   No deal!

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 97 18:10:11 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: RE: Open fire - All Canons

On 1997-05-12 14:32 thus spake Douglas E. Berry:

>Now to my shocking admission:  I'm running Traveller using Greg Porter's
>excellent CORPS rules.  The campaign is going to be a CT fanatic's wet
>dream: crewing a Free Trader in 1105, in the Spinward Marches.  I'm going
>to use Traveller rules for spacecraft and worlds, some variant of the trade
>rules, but the characters and action will not be strictly Traveller.

Neat! I downloaded Mr. Porters CORPS in a nutshell from the BRTC website 
and found his combat system intriguing... especially since I also 
recently purchased 3G3. I'm disappointed in the "coarseness" of Traveller 
weaponry. I mean, with damage ratings maxing out at 3, and very few range 
bands, that doesn't leave much room for variety.

One thing that confused me in the 4-page CORPS summary was the 
distinction between "lethal" and "non-lethal" damage. What's the 
definition? Is all firearm damage "lethal"? Is all melee damage 
"non-lethal", or is it "lethal" if a blade is used?

===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 19:13:15 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: IG Pricing Policy

On Tue, 13 May 1997, SD Mooney wrote:

> Do I feel like I'm being milked for profits? Yep.

Every once in a while, I buy something brand new and feel completely good 
about it, with no concerns about the item having been overpriced.  But it's 
only once in a while...


> Am I going to do anything about it? Well, I'm using the TML as a filter to
> decide what to buy!

Good plan; every consumer should seek out information about the item 
under consideration before making an actual purchase.  I don't know how 
many times I've bought something only to find out that not only am I 
disappointed, but there are tons of people who got burned as well, and 
who would have been happy to warn me off the product before-hand. 

'Course, any time you receive such information, you have to take into 
consideration who is giving it to you.  Each of us has our own biases, 
etc. 

But, to get back to the pricing issue, comparing substitute items to the 
price of RPGs over their useful lifetimes shows me that we're getting a 
heck of a deal, really (not that I won't always want lower prices<G>), on 
RPG's in general.  F'rinstance, a Super Nintendo cart is quite expensive 
- - darned near $100 a pop.  A computer game will run you $40 to $80 bucks, 
until it hits the bargain bins.  And in both cases, the amount of time 
you spend with them _tends_ to be less than with an RPG you really like 
(I say _tends_ because there are exceptions, of coruse; heck, I've played 
_Star Raiders_ for hundreds and hundreds of hours over the years).  

As a counter-example, there's always paper back books. They're still 
relatively inexpensive, and you can read them again and again and again.  
But, they're rarely as enjoyable for as many hours as a good RPG.

'Course, if you're one of the folks that feels it necessary to buy every 
supplement for Traveller no matter whether you feel its content will be 
useful in your own sessions (not to mention those of us who buy two or 
three copies of each supplement), RPG's become much less of a good buy. =)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh  |  Game Designer for Marc Miller's Traveller
_________________|  Atari 1200XL and Apple IIGS User and Programmer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:34:04 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Jump vs Gate/Wormhole Tech.

On Tue, 13 May 1997, Glenn Hoppe wrote:

Dont you hate when that happens:)

> AaaRGH! I replied to this yesterday, but my message disappeared! :-< Did
> I cancel instead of send? Did the internet absorb my message without a
> trace? Is it still lost in the aether?
[snip]


Peace,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


"Skepticism, like chastity, should not be relinquished too readily."
  - George Santayana

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 18:52:25 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: [off topic] Second Law of Thermo

Hi Michl,

> Can someone quote me the *complete* Second law of thermodynamics?

The Three Laws of Thermodynamics

1.  You can't get ahead 

    You can't build a system with more output than input. You can't
    get something for nothing.

2.  You can't break even

    You can't build a system which has no losses or other wastes.

3.  The first two rules apply everywhere.



Hope this helps.

                                                     Jim Choate
                                                     CyberTects
                                                     ravage@ssz.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:39:20 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Crisis on Infinite Earths

On Tue, 13 May 1997, Doctor Vince wrote:

> > >Also a few other niggling things, like fusion drives and Heplar's.
> > 
> > 	HEPLAR isn't realistic? It was way too realistic for me.
> 
> Here's an odd though for the gearheads...
> 
> What if you made a reaction drive from just water vapor? Here's the 
> idea:
> 
> Use water (or some other volatile liquid) as a reaction mass...pump 
> this through the cooling system of the powerplant to get 
> copious quantities of steam, and vent that out the back of the ship 
> for thrust. Can you generate several G's worth of pressure that way? 
> The steam isn't radioactive (assuming no leaks in the PP radiator) 
> and should be fairly eco-friendly. You can couple this with CG to get 
> off planet, then kick the M-drive in.

The problem with steam is that at its most efficient you get about a 50%
loss in energy.  I think really huge trubines can push this down to 30% or
25% energy loss, but your not going to have this on any but the largest
vessels.

[snip][snip]

> I have to disagree...I like the idea of making Traveller science a 
> little harder, by beefing up the handwaving or by coming up with a 
> small change that passes reality check better. I mean really, does 
[snip]

Wholeheartedly agree.


Peace,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


"Skepticism, like chastity, should not be relinquished too readily."
  - George Santayana

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:31:52 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth

On Tue, 13 May 1997, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> On Tue, 13 May 1997, Michael Solomani Mifsud wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I would much rather an Arthur C. Clarke style Traveller Universe then an
> > ID4 styled one.  Reality check time.
> 
> Hmmm, and just what was that law...Oh yeah:
> 
> CLARKE'S THIRD LAW OF TECHNOLOGY AND INNOVATION:

Actually was it not ASIMOV who stated that a sufficiently advanced
technology will be indistinguishable from magic?

Okay, I hear what your saying and thats fine - each to their own - I was
just curious if it bothered anyone else.  I think the beuty of a game can
also come from looking at what we know and can do now and projecting
that into the future - with zero or minimal hand waving.  I think many
people would be *amazed* at what research is being done and just how much
we *do* know about the working's of the Univerese.  I have always found
fact to be more exciting then fiction.

All in all Traveller is good at this, most current sci-fi, both television
and novel based seems to be using more and more 'magic' I just hope
Traveller does not go the same way.

As a side note, Bruce did you ever get the picture of the '27' I sent you?

> 	If you build a game around stl travel between the stars, you can't
> realistically have interaction between different systems, or between
> ships and systems...all you're left with is one planet, or one ship, and
> the game certainly wouldn't be Traveller.

True - but there are alternate theorys of FTL travel which seemed to be
overlooked by Traveller and a great many other sci-fi's.

> 	The problem with grounding Traveller so firmly in present day
> science is that it's NOT SET IN THE PRESENT DAY, DAMMIT!!! In three or
> four thousand years Clarkes third law will still apply, and with a
> vengeance. All told, I think that Traveller represents a far, far too
> conservative progression of technology, if anything, the 'reality'
> presented to us if we were somehow transported there would be akin to the
> reactions of an Egyptian ca. 2000 BC transported to the present day: 
> "Ayup, I'm in the land of the Gods, no doubt about it!" 

:)

I disagree somewhat - I think the transition between a caveman (or
Egyptian) to modern day would cause the Exclaimation "Ayup Im in God
land", but I think the jump between a modern man (late 20th C.)to a
thousand years in future will not be as great a shock to the system
as compared to your Egyptian.

The reason I say this is that I can definetly imagine stunning
breakthrough's in area's we do not currently fully understand - but
generally only in area's we already atleast have an inclining of.

I would also suspect that completely unheard of ideas and methods would
also be discovered and used, but these would be far and few between.

For instance, Vacuum Energy would not surprise me, nor would inertialess
drives, or FTL travel in some form.  All these things we have a shadow of
an understanding off, or atleats dream about - so for me to be hurtled
into the 30th Century and find these are now reality's, there would be
amazement, but I would not think it was magic.

I am probably not explaining myself very well, but hopefully you'll see
through the waffle and glimpse what I am *trying* to say.

[snip]
The rest of what you said I have no particular disagreement with, so I
snipped it out.

Peace,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


"Skepticism, like chastity, should not be relinquished too readily."
  - George Santayana

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:07:59 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Jumpspace Wormhole Theory

On Tue, 13 May 1997, Glenn Hoppe wrote:

> > My only beef is that Traveller is such a cool game because, where
> > possible, its scientifically accurate.  For a universe like Travller to
> > exist, humans have to be able to travel between systems quickly.  The
> > current system is workable, but does not agree with our current body of
> > knowledge on the subject.  Wormholes/Jump Gates seem to be a workable
> > alternative to the current Jump system.
> 
> Firstly, nobody knows how to travel faster than light, so there is no
> "body of knowledge on the subject." :=>

Actually your correct in one sense, but wrong in another - using the
following definition for FTL travel;

You have two points, starting point is (A) finishing point is (B).  The
moment a ship leaves point (a) heading for point (b) I send a beam of
light from a to b.  If the vessel arrives before the beam of light arrives
then I *have* travlled faster then the speed of light.

We are pretty sure that there is a Light Barrier (can not go faster then
light), therefore to go faster then light, another method must found.  An
accepted method is using a problembistic idea know has "hyperspace" wher
the vehicles leaves our Universe and therefor is not *bound* by the laws
of our Universe, ie not bound by the Speed of Light Barrier.

I am also sure you would be amazed at how much research *has* been done on
this Barrier, FTL and wormholes - dating all the way back to the 30's.  So
there *is* a body of knowledge.

> Wormholes haven't yet been proven to exist, because they haven't been
> observed. Blackholes have been pretty much proven, because objects which
> are easily explained by black hole theory have been observed.

Sorry, wrong again :)  Neither Blackholes or Wormholes have been observed,
so how can you be si sure that one exists but the other does not?  I can
be sure that both exist because of the Laws Of Physics.  Wormholes were
discovered mathematically in 1916 as a solution to Eiensteins field
equation.  They have been researched extensively since the 1950's (mostly
by Wheeler and his group) and, like Black Holes have been *mathematically*
proven to exist.

The problem with Womrholes is that they are *highly* unstable and extremly
tiny.  My supposition is that a highly advanced civilisation, like those
in the Traveller Universe, can stabilise them and manipulate them for
intersteller travel.

> If you accept current theory about wormholes, and wish to postulate that
> in the future larger, stable, wormholes will be able to be made, and if
> you feel wormholes are a better method for interstellar travel, then by
> all means use wormholes.

:)  I will!  I just wanted feedback from the TML.

> 
> BUT... there's no need to throw Traveller Jumpdrives out the window,
> just explain them using "wormhole lingo". Nobody knows how long a trip
> through a wormhole would take, nor how much energy it would take to
> create one. So there's no reason to change the way interstellar travel
> in Traveller works.

Your explanation (below) is excellent, I quite like it and i hope you wont
mind if I incorporate *parts* of it into my own Traveller Universe and my
own Jumpgate/Drive wormhole TAS entries?


I have not gotten rid of the Jump Drive, but I have heavily modified it -
a Jump Drive equiped ship basically acrrie its own Gate for transportaion,
only higly advanced civilisations or extremely large, usually
experimental,  vessel carry such one sided gate's.

Once I have put together the TAS entries, and I am happy with them I will
post them to TML.

Now onto specific comments ...

[snip]
> Firstly, a course must be plotted through jumpspace. So far,
> calculations of beyond 6 parsecs have been found impossible to solve.
> Though it has not yet been proven insoluble, mathematicians made it
> their "holy grail" ever since Fermat's Last Theorem was proven.

Ahh excellent I like this.  Theoritically Wormholes can be of any length,
which could mean that you could get a Jump -20 or higher, which I did not
like.  I think I will use your idea to continue to limit them to 6
parsecs, making them easier to meld into the current Traveller Universe.

[snip]
> Time to travel any distance through the wormhole is relatively
> invariant, being 168 hours +/- 10%. A ship entering the wormhole is
> acted upon by a constant "acceleration" to the midpoint of the trip and
> a constant "decceleration" of the same magnitude from the midpoint to
> the destination. The "acceleration" varies from wormhole to wormhole,
> but has never been found to cause a greater than 10% variation in travel
> time.

Good, you solved another problem of wormholes I have had as it pertains to
"melding" them with current Traveller canon.  The time it takes to travel
a wormhole in "reality" is the time it takes to travel the tunnel's length
in the real Universe.  For instance if the tunnel was 20km long, then it
would take you as long to get through the tunnel as it would in space to
travel 20KM. BUT I much rather your explanation.

[snip]
> "Jumpgates", or the external drilling of wormholes, has been found to be
> impractical with current Imperial technology because it is imperative
> that the drilling process originate from *within the jumpspacee field*.
> In other words, once the source generates the wormhole, it *must* enter
> the wormhole.

I disagree.  I like Stargates so I use them.  This way your average
trader has a lot mor room because he doesn not carry any jump drives.  
The government who maintains the gate makes money from tolls, and only
exceptionally advanced or large *military* vessels have Jump Drives to
allow extra maneuverability.



Peace,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


"Skepticism, like chastity, should not be relinquished too readily."
  - George Santayana

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:35:45 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Core Expedition dates

Does anyone have the dates of the Solomani Core Expeditions?


Peace,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


"Skepticism, like chastity, should not be relinquished too readily."
  - George Santayana

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:22:42 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: First Contact?

I am basing a game in the Solomani Rim and some of the Imperial core ward
sectors during the time of the Intersteller Wars.   I was wondering, what
major races would have been contacted by this time from both the
Solomani/Imperial veiw?

Imperial's and Solomani's: Yes obviously
Aslan: No not yet, they wont have jump drive for some 1000 years.
Hiver?
KKree?
Zhodani?

Any intresting minor race?

The reason I ask is because in the game I am designing, I have one
randomly appearing Aslan Far Trader, but then I realised that they would
not have Jump drives yet.  So I thought I better double check the other
major races.


Im out like bell bottom trousers,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


Science can change the compond state of matter than it can its mind.
The Singer

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 22:21:22 -0400
From: Edgar Whipple <ewhipple@rma.edu>
Subject: Re: Captain, we'er surrounded, and they're all armed with c

>1. The maximum controlled jump is jump six.
>2. Jump takes one week, plus or minus one day
>3. While in jump, any interaction (including communication) with other
>   ships in jump, or with normal space is completely impossible.

Each jump factor requires fuel equal to 10% of hull displacement. Yes?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 20:22:40 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: RE: Ship Economics - Making a buck!

At 06:37 pm 05/13/97 +1200, you wrote:
>
>>	Just like real world slow mail, where it costs me the same per trip 
>rather
>>than by distance, you mean? (32 cents to send a letter across the street 
>or
>>across the continent ...)
>>-- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
>
>Nope!
>
>My last piece of mail from your fine country was from IG themselves and had 
>$1.40 on it. 

	No doubt. But that wasn't "across the continent" ... you're quite a bit
further away, and outside the US to boot (parallel: shipping from the
Imperium to the Zhodani Consulate probably wouldn't be restricted to Cr1000
per disp ton).

	Besides, all of this ignores the real reason the trade rules are set up
the way they are... they were written for player characters in a tramp free
trader, not to model megacorps, shipping lines, or the internal economy of
the Imperium. Marc didn't WANT players to be able to break even doing
simple shipping; that's boring. They have to take risks, hence the
speculative trade rules.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 20:24:15 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: MAJOR PROBLEM WITH QSDS/FFS

At 09:10 am 05/13/97 +0200, you wrote:
>On Mon, 12 May 1997, David J. Golden wrote:
>
>> At 09:09 pm 05/12/97 +0200, you wrote:
>> 	It doesn't have to grapple on to large areas, per se. The actual grapples
>> themselves may take only a few square meters on each ship (for small
>> craft), plus another square meter or two for a connecting tunnel between
>> the two. But while the small craft is grappled, it's covering a much larger
>> portion of the mothership that then can't be used for sensors, weapons,
>> etc. (unless you figure your first shot will just blow a hole through the
>> small craft, leaving your weapon free to fire further shots at the enemy).
>> Here's a drawing. Think of "M" as representing a grapple. All of the
>> surface area marked "=" on the mothercraft is unavailable to put much of
>> anything else on, simply because it's covered by the small craft. 
>
>But put the ship with its end toward the large ship and a much
>smaller area is used
>                  +---------------------+ |
>                  |      Small Craft    |E| Mother Ship
>                  +---------------------+ |
>
>This should be no problem with crafts that are not to enter 
>atmospheres.

	Actually, it means the grapples have to be MUCH stronger, there's a great
deal of force applied to both the grapple and the base of the small craft
during even normal acceleration, much less evasion, and there are likely to
be some serious bending moments on the small craft. So it is somewhat of a
problem.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:22:47 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth

On Tue, 13 May 1997, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> 
> > Second, is the whole "Virus" episode.  Can't say I really liked this idea
> > - "oh no, not another dark age."  Also, is this sort of lifeform even
> > plausiable?
> 
> I didn't like Virus either, but here's an interesting way to look at 
> it.

I am not alone in the Universe.  :)

> 
> You know, Traveller has some of its roots in Asimov's Foundation 
> series.  If you haven't read that, the main subject of the series is 
> the stellar empire, and we watch it crest and fall over several 
> thousand years.
> 

Very familiar, I studied it at the University level and since then have
read most (I hesitate to say all) of his work.

> We don't even follow one character throughout.  We follow the ages of 
> the empire.
> 
> And in the series, the empire is great.  Then, we read another 
> section of the book, and the empire falls some years later.
> 
> Even the first emperor in the book was called Cleon.
> 
> Given this, you can think of the Virus era as just like what happens 
> in the book.
> 
> I bet the phoenix will rise from the flame somewhere down the road.

I am sure it will, but how many times will it rise from the flames?  In
Foundation the Empire collapsed once.  The whole collapse was so
phenominal that even with the aide of technical wizards and psionic
masters the dark ages would still last a thousand years.  After the
re-emergence of the Empire, in the Foundation mould, the whole Galaxy is
colonisied by this stage, and the Humans start to wonder about
intrusions from other Galaxy's.

So, I take your point and its a good one, but there's not that much cross
over between the two.  I would rather that there was the Traveller
Universe, well documented and sourced and then each Game Master changes it
how ever he/she likes - more like the Dungeons and Dragons mould.  Though
I find the Traveller history intriguing, I would rather that all the
energy spent on that sort of stuff was re-focused on making excellent "the
be all and end all" Traveller source book.  Modifications and additions
can come from Modules and TAS articles etc.

My 2 Credits.


 
> Kenneth.
> 
> > 
> > Also a few other niggling things, like fusion drives and Heplar's.
> > 
> > I am probably alone in this, but Traveller seems to be heading the same
> > way as a lot of modern sci-fi generally is (including shows like Trek and
> > b5) - its just plain fantasy, no basis in any science whatsoever.  The
> > greatest, and I dare say only appeal to me of Traveller was its
> > foundation in science.  I just wanted to know if anyone else felt the same
> > way?
> > 
> > I would much rather an Arthur C. Clarke style Traveller Universe then an
> > ID4 styled one.  Reality check time.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > c'ya hate to be ya,
> > 
> > michl
> > 
> > electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/
> > 
> > 
> > A learned man is an idler who kills time by study
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 


Im out like bell bottom trousers,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


Science can change the compond state of matter than it can its mind.
The Singer

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1316
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, May 14 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1317



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Solomani v. Imperial date
Re: First Survey error's?
RE: Open fire - All Canons
Re: Traveller Jumpspace Wormhole Theory
Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth
Re: Core Expedition dates
RE: Open fire - All Canons
RE: Speed of Light
Re: IG Pricing Policy
Re: IG Pricing Policy
Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth
BRTC/CORPS - Where?
Re: Traveller Jumpspace Wormhole Theory
Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth
RE: Open fire - All Canons

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:29:58 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Solomani v. Imperial date

I know someone already told me this sometime back - but I lost it!  Doh!
How do you convert the Imperial Dates to standard human BC/AD dates?

I promise I'll right it down this time:)


Im out like bell bottom trousers,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


Science can change the compond state of matter than it can its mind.
The Singer

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 21:09:52 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: First Survey error's?

At 04:09 PM 5/13/97 -0700, you wrote:
>well this is the first i've heard of bugs in FS can someone explain
>what they were.. so i can TRY and fix... things before my game
>get's too messed up!

a: Every world has identical government and law levels.

b: UWPs don't match text in Milieu:0; planets ID'd as major Imperial foes
in M:0 have small populations and low TLs.. Vland is listed with 30,000
people on it!

This book is messed up bad.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|   about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|   Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|     -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin" |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 21:23:21 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: RE: Open fire - All Canons

At 06:10 PM 5/13/97 -0600, Glenn Hoppe wrote:

>Neat! I downloaded Mr. Porters CORPS in a nutshell from the BRTC website 
>and found his combat system intriguing... especially since I also 
>recently purchased 3G3. I'm disappointed in the "coarseness" of Traveller 
>weaponry. I mean, with damage ratings maxing out at 3, and very few range 
>bands, that doesn't leave much room for variety.

I'm recommending CORPS to anyone who is interested in a great rules-light
system. It really is the system I've been looking for all these years.
(When I told my wife this, she surveyed the shelves of Traveller and GURPS
books and managed to contain her joy at the end of my quest.)

>One thing that confused me in the 4-page CORPS summary was the 
>distinction between "lethal" and "non-lethal" damage. What's the 
>definition? Is all firearm damage "lethal"? Is all melee damage 
>"non-lethal", or is it "lethal" if a blade is used?

Lethal is cutting/penetrating damage (knife wounds, gunshots, etc.) it has
the potential to kill you, using the eventualy fatal and instant kill
rolls.  Non'lethal is a punch in the jaw.. very hard to kill somebody, but
you can knock them cold.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|   about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|   Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|     -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin" |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 21:31:35 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Jumpspace Wormhole Theory

At 12:07 PM 5/14/97 +1000, you wrote:
>On Tue, 13 May 1997, Glenn Hoppe wrote:

>> Wormholes haven't yet been proven to exist, because they haven't been
>> observed. Blackholes have been pretty much proven, because objects which
>> are easily explained by black hole theory have been observed.
>
>Sorry, wrong again :)  Neither Blackholes or Wormholes have been observed,
>so how can you be si sure that one exists but the other does not?  I can
>be sure that both exist because of the Laws Of Physics.  Wormholes were
>discovered mathematically in 1916 as a solution to Eiensteins field
>equation.  They have been researched extensively since the 1950's (mostly
>by Wheeler and his group) and, like Black Holes have been *mathematically*
>proven to exist.

Black holes have been observed by the HST, one at the center of a galaxy
apparently has a mass several hundred *billion* times that of the sun.
Cygnuss X-1 has been observed for many years, and was recently confirmed to
be a black hole.

Wormholes, have not been observed.  While mathematically feasible, until
one is found, the remain a matter of conjecture.


- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|   about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|   Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|     -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin" |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 21:03:54 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth

At 11:31 AM 5/14/97 +1000, you wrote:
>On Tue, 13 May 1997, Bruce Johnson wrote:

>Actually was it not ASIMOV who stated that a sufficiently advanced
>technology will be indistinguishable from magic?

No, that's Clarke's Law.

>Okay, I hear what your saying and thats fine - each to their own - I was
>just curious if it bothered anyone else.  I think the beuty of a game can
>also come from looking at what we know and can do now and projecting
>that into the future - with zero or minimal hand waving.  I think many
>people would be *amazed* at what research is being done and just how much
>we *do* know about the working's of the Univerese.  I have always found
>fact to be more exciting then fiction.

GURPS Space, 2300AD, MechWarrior.  There are games out there that take a
very hard science, no hand waving approach to space flight.  Hell, one of
the best resources I own is Cyperpunk's Deep Space book.  The important
difference is, they are not Traveller, which is what is being discussed on
this list.

Traveller is jump drives, artificial gravity, thruster plates and HepLar,
all tyhese things that have grown up arounf the game for twenty years.
Changing or removing one of these basics invalidates one of the most
engaging and detailed science fiction settings I know of.

I love it when anybody attempts to predict what the future will be like.
We could keep growing by leaps and bounds technologically until we reach
the point where I can be uploaded into an interstellar probe and sent to
seed the universe with copies of myself, or we could hit a ceiling in the
next twenty years, and stay there for centuries waiting for the next
pivitol breakthrough.

>All in all Traveller is good at this, most current sci-fi, both television
>and novel based seems to be using more and more 'magic' I just hope
>Traveller does not go the same way.

Clarke's Law.  Take my computer back to Aloan Turing in the late 1940s.  He
won't beleive what he's seeing with his own two eyes.  Show Henry Ford tape
of the Indianapolois 500.. He'll goggle at the very idea.  Ever single
piece of technology was magic and fantasy until somebody invented it.  The
magic cave of Ali Baba?  A voice-pattern lock key to a correct phrase..
common place nowadays.  *I've* been cured of a disease that as little as 30
years ago was not treatable!  A turn of the century doctor would call that
a miracle!

So who's to say that next year some bright grad student won't crack the
secret of anti-grav or cheap fusion?  If they do, our children and
grandchildren will just accept it.  Of course cars fly!  Why wouldn't they?
 This is the same level of acceptance that my niece shows towards
spaceflight, something that Craig and I are just old enough to still find
amazing.

>> 	If you build a game around stl travel between the stars, you can't
>> realistically have interaction between different systems, or between
>> ships and systems...all you're left with is one planet, or one ship, and
>> the game certainly wouldn't be Traveller.
>
>True - but there are alternate theorys of FTL travel which seemed to be
>overlooked by Traveller and a great many other sci-fi's.

Because jump drive works.  It is the only known method IN THE TRAVELLER
UNIVERSE to travel FTL.  Try GURPS.. Space and Vehicles 2nd Ed have a
number of different ways to get around.

>> 	The problem with grounding Traveller so firmly in present day
>> science is that it's NOT SET IN THE PRESENT DAY, DAMMIT!!! In three or
>> four thousand years Clarkes third law will still apply, and with a
>> vengeance. All told, I think that Traveller represents a far, far too
>> conservative progression of technology, if anything, the 'reality'
>> presented to us if we were somehow transported there would be akin to the
>> reactions of an Egyptian ca. 2000 BC transported to the present day: 
>> "Ayup, I'm in the land of the Gods, no doubt about it!" 

>I disagree somewhat - I think the transition between a caveman (or
>Egyptian) to modern day would cause the Exclaimation "Ayup Im in God
>land", but I think the jump between a modern man (late 20th C.)to a
>thousand years in future will not be as great a shock to the system
>as compared to your Egyptian.

Really?  Take a man from San Francisco, circa 1930.  Trnasfer him to SF in
1997.  With the city crowded with skyscrapers, an artificial island in the
bay, bridges all over the place, a black mayor, homosexuals everywhere,
700,000 people crammed into our tiny little town, hundreds of thousands of
cars, women working.. he'd die of culture shock before you'd even be able
to introduce him to the technology

>The reason I say this is that I can definetly imagine stunning
>breakthrough's in area's we do not currently fully understand - but
>generally only in area's we already atleast have an inclining of.

Vulcanized rubber, one of the most basic items in our life, was discovered
by accident.  As was penicillin, the glue on post-it notes, and a host of
other things.  Serendipity tends to lead to more breakthroughs than basic
research it seems.

>I would also suspect that completely unheard of ideas and methods would
>also be discovered and used, but these would be far and few between.
>
>For instance, Vacuum Energy would not surprise me, nor would inertialess
>drives, or FTL travel in some form.  All these things we have a shadow of
>an understanding off, or atleats dream about - so for me to be hurtled
>into the 30th Century and find these are now reality's, there would be
>amazement, but I would not think it was magic.

How about if you were offered a new body?  By definition, you couldn't be
surprised by something you expected.  My man of 1930 above couldn't have
expect to find a black man running the city, it was unthinkable in his
time, and he had no reason to believe things would ever change.


- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|   about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|   Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|     -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin" |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 20:35:19 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Core Expedition dates

At 12:35 PM 5/14/97 +1000, you wrote:
>
>Does anyone have the dates of the Solomani Core Expeditions?

Zhodani Core Expeditions.. I'll look them up.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|   about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|   Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|     -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin" |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 21:17:27 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: RE: Open fire - All Canons

At 07:29 PM 5/12/97 +0000, you wrote:
>
>> Does this make me a heretic?  I'm just sick and tired off waiting for a
>> playable system to come from IG, and even KBv2.0 doesn't make enough fixes
>> to make the game playable for me.
>
>This is not a sales pitch--just curiosity.  I like to keep up on what 
>people think of KBv2.0.
>
>What doesn't KBv2.0 fix?

Sorry, poorly worded..  my players just didn't like handfuls of dice.  we
switched to CORPS due to the ease of the task system.


- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|   about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|   Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|     -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin" |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:00:44 +0400
From: Andy Long <andyl@icluae.co.ae>
Subject: RE: Speed of Light

>>>>
>-----Original Message-----
>From:	Scott Ellsworth [SMTP:Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu]
>Sent:	Tuesday, May 13, 1997 8:24 PM
>>Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 14:49:41 +1000 (EST)
>>From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
>>
>>On Mon, 12 May 1997, Scott Ellsworth wrote:
>
>[andy long]  <Snip>
>>At the speed of light they would not age at all (time stops).
>
>That is what the formula says, and there is no reason presently to
>disbelieve it.  At v=c, the formulas seem to work, as long as all particles
>and only particles moving at lightspeed have zero mass.  This implies
>fairly heavily, subject to new data, that the relativity corrections work
>up to v=c.
>[andy long]  <<<<
>At v=c, YOUR mass becomes infite. This is because, while you MULTIPLY time
>and length by Tau, you DIVIDE mass. and 1-(v**2/c**2), for v=c, becomes 1-1,
>or Zero. Dividing any non-zero by zero yields one of the many (no, I'm not a
>mathetician, and can't identify it)  infinities. 
>>>>>
>>Beyond the Speed of Light barrier I would move backwards in time (?)
>
>Correct, if you believe the numbers from the formula, though many
>relativists do not think it holds for v>c.  According to relativity theory,
>you get time travel and failure of simultaneity as soon as you get FTL
>travel, but it is quite possible that light speed is an absolute barrier,
>or that different laws come into play.  One important point - we have NO
>data about FTL.
>[andy long]  >>>>
>The equations DO NOT say that time will go backwards. Look at it again. If v
>> c, then part of the equation becomes negative, sure (1 - ( v**2 / c**2 )),
>but then you take the square root of that number.
>
>SQRT( -n ) === SQRT( -1 ) * SQRT( n ) === i * SQRT( n ).
>
>(=== -> Identical with )
>
>What you get is an IMAGINARY number, NOT a negative number.
>
>Andy
>================================================================
>smtp Email:	andyl@icluae.co.ae OR
>		andylong@x400.icl.co.uk OR
>		A.G.Long@abu0101.wins.icl.co.uk OR
>		andylong@emirates.net.ae
>x400 Email:	c=ae;a=emdan;p=icl;ou1=abu0101;s=Long;i=AG;
>		o=International Computers Ltd;
>A.G. Long, c/o ICL	Phone:	+971 (2) 335200/338066
>PO Box 7237		Fax:	+971 (2) 338724
>Abu Dhabi
>United Arab Emirates
>================================================================
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 00:09:17 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: IG Pricing Policy

 (not that I won't always want lower prices<G>)

Here's an interesting note on T4 prices that I was glad to see.  One 
of my players recently took my advice and went out an bought the EA.  
I went with him, because we were hanging out together that day, and 
his girlfriend was out of town for Mother's Day.

We went to the SAME store to buy his copy of the EA that I bought 
mine at--and guess what!!!!

The damn thing was $2.50 cheaper.  All of the T4 stuff had been 
marked down.  All of the $22.50 supplements are now $20.00 at that 
store.

Even the main book was marked down.  

I'm not sure if this was something the store did, or if IG is 
scaling back prices or offering dealer rebates or what.

All I know is that this is a good thing.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 97 00:06:20 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: IG Pricing Policy

On 1997-05-13 18:13 thus spake Joseph E. Walsh:

>But, to get back to the pricing issue, comparing substitute items to the 
>price of RPGs over their useful lifetimes shows me that we're getting a 
>heck of a deal, really (not that I won't always want lower prices<G>), on 
>RPG's in general.  F'rinstance, a Super Nintendo cart is quite expensive 
>- darned near $100 a pop.  A computer game will run you $40 to $80 bucks, 
>until it hits the bargain bins.  And in both cases, the amount of time 
>you spend with them _tends_ to be less than with an RPG you really like 
>(I say _tends_ because there are exceptions, of coruse; heck, I've played 
>_Star Raiders_ for hundreds and hundreds of hours over the years).  

You know, it occured to me after I went to the movie on the weekend, =
that I think nothing of spending money for 2 hours of entertainment. =
20 bucks for the movie for 2, popcorn, drinks and gummie bears. And =
that was a matin=E9e!

But when I saw Emperor's Arsenal in the FLGS for $30 + tax, I =
hesitated... but there's no doubt I'd be reading it and using it for =
more than two hours of my life!

And even after I'm done, I could trade it used for, say, 1/4 what I =
paid.

Guess it's a matter of perspective.

Course, from what I've heard, you won't catch me spending two bucks =
on stinky ol' First Survey or Starships... ;-)

PS. I ended up getting _The Babylon Project_ instead. I just like the =
show too damn much. EA can wait a little while longer...

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Glenn Hoppe =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D\ /--- =
MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Eschew =
Obfuscation =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 97 00:06:16 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth

On 1997-05-13 19:31 thus spake Michael Solomani Mifsud:

>> 	If you build a game around stl travel between the stars, you can't
>> realistically have interaction between different systems, or between
>> ships and systems...all you're left with is one planet, or one ship, and
>> the game certainly wouldn't be Traveller.
>
>True - but there are alternate theorys of FTL travel which seemed to be
>overlooked by Traveller and a great many other sci-fi's.

I don't agree with your implication in the above statement.

There's many different kinds of FTL ideas in Science Fiction. Each author 
or creator of Science Fiction chooses a method, and develops how it works 
and its affects on the denizens of his or her universe. It is my humble 
opinion, that it is best *not* to mix too many different methods of FTL 
travel when creating a sci-fi background. It is better to concentrate on 
one "vision" of how FTL travel works, and stick to it. Consistancy, 
consistancy, consistancy.

So alternate theories of FTL travel haven't been "overlooked". Marc 
decided hyperspace (ie. jumpspace) was the way to go for TRAVELLER, and 
he stuck to it. He, or someone else, decided that Stutterwarp was the way 
to go for 2300AD, so that was the method used there, and it had different 
implications for that universe.

I do *not* want Imperium Games to officially invalidate jump-drives and 
how they work. If _you_ choose to model other ways of interstellar 
travel, go ahead, but don't say to me that the Traveller way is "wrong".

BTW, if you haven't yet, you should check out the Relativity and FTL 
Travel FAQ at
<http://www.physics.purdue.edu/~hinson/ftl/>

===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:47:47 +0400
From: Andy Long <andyl@icluae.co.ae>
Subject: BRTC/CORPS - Where?

>>>>
>-----Original Message-----
>From:	Glenn Hoppe [SMTP:starcity@eagle.wbm.ca]
>Sent:	Wednesday, May 14, 1997 4:10 AM
>Neat! I downloaded Mr. Porters CORPS in a nutshell from the BRTC website 
>and found his combat system intriguing... especially since I also 
>recently purchased 3G3. I'm disappointed in the "coarseness" of Traveller 
>weaponry. I mean, with damage ratings maxing out at 3, and very few range 
>bands, that doesn't leave much room for variety.
>[andy long]  <<<<
>
>Where can I find them, please?
>
>Andy
>================================================================
>smtp Email:	andyl@icluae.co.ae OR
>		andylong@x400.icl.co.uk OR
>		A.G.Long@abu0101.wins.icl.co.uk OR
>		andylong@emirates.net.ae
>x400 Email:	c=ae;a=emdan;p=icl;ou1=abu0101;s=Long;i=AG;
>		o=International Computers Ltd;
>A.G. Long, c/o ICL	Phone:	+971 (2) 335200/338066
>PO Box 7237		Fax:	+971 (2) 338724
>Abu Dhabi
>United Arab Emirates
>================================================================
> 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:09:14 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Jumpspace Wormhole Theory

On Tue, 13 May 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> At 12:07 PM 5/14/97 +1000, you wrote:
> Black holes have been observed by the HST, one at the center of a galaxy
> apparently has a mass several hundred *billion* times that of the sun.
> Cygnuss X-1 has been observed for many years, and was recently confirmed to
> be a black hole.

hmmm, what is your source for this information?  I just pulled a source
out now (dated 1993, so it could easily be dated) and I quote;

"I have never seen a black hole .. no one has.  Astronomers have found
only indirect evidence for the existence of black holes and *no*
observational evidence for the existence of black holes."

See the thing about black holes is that they are black, and the thing
about space is that, well, its black too - so its hard finding the little
(or giant) suckers.

:)

> Wormholes, have not been observed.  While mathematically feasible, until
> one is found, the remain a matter of conjecture.

Agreed, I never said otherwise - BUT I would rather "mathematically
feasible" (which is incorrect, should read "mathematically PROVED") and
"conjecture" over complete fantasy and lots of hand waving (RE: Jump
Drives).


c'ya hate to be ya,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


"I like something with `vice' in it."
  - Ted Turner, on his new role as vice chariman of Time Warner.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:41:54 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth

On Tue, 13 May 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

I cant see the relevence of most of your response. I asked if anyone felt
any of Traveller was a little to fantastic, a little to much
hand-waving, not that we should rip jump drives out and replace them with
something else.   But I will respond none the less.

Fantastic=Fantasy as in D&D.

[snip]
> I love it when anybody attempts to predict what the future will be like.
> We could keep growing by leaps and bounds technologically until we reach
> the point where I can be uploaded into an interstellar probe and sent to
> seed the universe with copies of myself, or we could hit a ceiling in the
> next twenty years, and stay there for centuries waiting for the next
> pivitol breakthrough.

There are limits though.  Making stuff up that completely violates our
current understanding of the universe belongs in D&D,  sci-fi should be
*atleast* bound by the Laws we have already discovered.

[snip]
> Clarke's Law.  Take my computer back to Aloan Turing in the late 1940s.  He
> won't beleive what he's seeing with his own two eyes.  Show Henry Ford tape
> of the Indianapolois 500.. He'll goggle at the very idea.  Ever single
> piece of technology was magic and fantasy until somebody invented it.  The
> magic cave of Ali Baba?  A voice-pattern lock key to a correct phrase..
> common place nowadays.  *I've* been cured of a disease that as little as 30
> years ago was not treatable!  A turn of the century doctor would call that
> a miracle!

I see what your saying, but something "amazing" as opposed to calling
something "god like" is a different ball park.  Also, how can you speak
for anyone at all?  Did you know Mr. Ford personally? Knew his views on
what the car would become? I doubt it.

After the initial *surprise* he may sit down and say, "hey, I should of
expected this".  Then he may not - whos to say.

All I am saying is that the jump between a caveman and a modern man, I
*believe* would be much greater than modern man to thousand years in the
future.  Where a cave man would find electricity inconceivable, a modern
man would not find Vacuum Energy inconceivable (depending on his
education of course)

The reason? Our general everday understanding of the Universe has
increased a thousand fold when compared to primitive mans understanding.

> So who's to say that next year some bright grad student won't crack the
> secret of anti-grav or cheap fusion?  If they do, our children and
[snip]

They wont be discovered *if* they violate the rules of the universe.  So
either the rules are wrong, or the discovery is impossible - I would like
to think the rules are right, or very close to right at this point in
time.

> Because jump drive works.  It is the only known method IN THE TRAVELLER
> UNIVERSE to travel FTL.  Try GURPS.. Space and Vehicles 2nd Ed have a
> number of different ways to get around.

So?  If we discover that the method Traveller uses is wrong, completely
foundless, but an alternative will *probably* work given the right
technology level, would you still stick with the Traveller Jump Drives?

That is my point.


> >I disagree somewhat - I think the transition between a caveman (or
> >Egyptian) to modern day would cause the Exclaimation "Ayup Im in God
> >land", but I think the jump between a modern man (late 20th C.)to a
> >thousand years in future will not be as great a shock to the system
> >as compared to your Egyptian.
> 
> Really?  Take a man from San Francisco, circa 1930.  Trnasfer him to SF in
> 1997.  With the city crowded with skyscrapers, an artificial island in the
> bay, bridges all over the place, a black mayor, homosexuals everywhere,
> 700,000 people crammed into our tiny little town, hundreds of thousands of
> cars, women working.. he'd die of culture shock before you'd even be able
> to introduce him to the technology

I was not talking about culture, not at all - I was comparing
technological differences, in which case Mr1930 would be more comfortable
in SF 1997 then Mr 1000BC Egyptian.  The context was "technology" and
"technological advancement".

> >For instance, Vacuum Energy would not surprise me, nor would inertialess
> >drives, or FTL travel in some form.  All these things we have a shadow of
> >an understanding off, or atleats dream about - so for me to be hurtled
> >into the 30th Century and find these are now reality's, there would be
> >amazement, but I would not think it was magic.
> 
> How about if you were offered a new body?  By definition, you couldn't be
> surprised by something you expected.  My man of 1930 above couldn't have
> expect to find a black man running the city, it was unthinkable in his
> time, and he had no reason to believe things would ever change.

No I wouldnt be *shocked* I wouldnt be so stunned by the revelation that
humans can now transplant minds to new bodys that I would consider it the
realm of the gods.   Surprised of course, but no so surprised I could not
cope with it.



c'ya hate to be ya,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


"I like something with `vice' in it."
  - Ted Turner, on his new role as vice chariman of Time Warner.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 23:44:49 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Subject: RE: Open fire - All Canons

>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>

>My personal favorite remains MegaTraveller, simply because I found that to
>be the best total package for the type of games that I run.

Ditto.

>Now to my shocking admission:  I'm running Traveller using Greg Porter's
>excellent CORPS rules.  The campaign is going to be a CT fanatic's wet
>dream: crewing a Free Trader in 1105, in the Spinward Marches.  I'm going
>to use Traveller rules for spacecraft and worlds, some variant of the trade
>rules, but the characters and action will not be strictly Traveller.

Don't start this until I can join you! (My current campaign -- running 
about once a year since 1989 -- follows some nightmarish conspiracies 
during the Fifth Frontier War.)

>I'm wondering how many of us actually play strictly canonical (rules and
>backround) Traveller?  Many of us date back to when the Imperium was a

I think of the background side of my current campaign as largely 
within canon.  Every item of background published by GDW or DGP up 
to 1107 is probably true.  For example, issues of Challenge and 
Travellers' Digest give descriptions of worlds in the Spinward 
Marches.  I generally use these.  On top of that are the things that 
I've made up, like an addictive psionic inducer drug being distributed 
during the war, and the presence of an Ancient weapon largely modelled 
on the Doomsday Weapon from Star Trek.  Those aren't inconsistent with 
canon to the extent that they disagree with anything already published.  
The history of the Kforuzeng is a little different than canon, but 
that's not a major part of canon nor of the campaign.  

Regarding the rules, my campaigns -- and my playing -- focus primarily 
on role-playing. I like the task system in MT (maybe because I've used 
it for a long time), and use it largely as instructed.  It has about the 
right level of detail for the campaign and the primary player.  I don't 
so much have house rules as a willingness to make decisions as a referee, 
and my players respect those decisions -- I guess they like the story 
so far.  For example, space combat tends to be somewhat abstracted, as the 
PCs are only passengers, or crew not involved in tactical decision-making.  
I tell them what the results are that they perceive, and they respond
appropriately.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1317
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, May 14 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1318



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: [T97#1304] A few comments on Milieu 0
Re: computer game (was re: some questions)
Re: First Survey 'Errata'
Re: MAJOR PROBLEM WITH QSDS/FFS
Apple II software for Trav
Re: MAJOR PROBLEM WITH QSDS/FFS
Re: Speed of Light
Re: Crisis on Infinite Earths
Re: Traveller Jumpspace Wormhole Theory
Re: Captain, we're surrounded, and they're all armed with cano ns....
Re: ANCIENT Grandfather
Re: IG Pricing Policy
Re: IG Pricing Policy
Re: Virus and falkj5t495ujg
Re: Traveller Jumpspace Wormhole Theory
Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 00:49:35 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Re: [T97#1304] A few comments on Milieu 0

>From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)

"Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com> writes...

T::>The Warrant of Restoration, set forth at pp. 83-84, has an enormous
 ::>loophole in Article 1:
[deletion]
> The key here (I was the author of that portion of the Warrant -
> and most of the rest as well) is the word _recognized_.  In

Inasmuch as "recognized" isn't defined, you're likely to end up in 
nasty politicized litigation (but that isn't a bad thing with respect 
to opportunities for lawyers -er- adventurers).  Fraudulent presentation 
as a recognized representative (fraud by the recognizer or the 
representative); arguments over the standards for obtaining recognition 
from the Imperium; conflicts between two representatives, one of whom 
seeks recognition for the purpose of proclaiming allegiance and other 
one seeks to state that the world does not want to join:  these are a 
few of my favorite things, and they're going to be problems no matter
how you handle admission.  

The problem that I see is that the Imperium doesn't have a choice once 
the recognition of the representative is granted.  You propose some 
solutions on the back end, but these are fraught with political problems.  
The Imperium would have an easier time if it could accept or reject
candidates.  

> Also, a proclamation of allegiance is of no value if the
> allegiance is not accepted.  If the Emperor or his

There isn't any provision expressly addressing acceptance; once the 
representative is recognized and proclaims allegiance, the world is in.

> name".  See my responses to your scenarios, below.

Ditto. 

> Or, as I suggest above, without kicking them out, they can have
> the name, but not the substance.

See below.

T::>Where might this problem arise?  (1) A world far from the Imperial
 ::>sphere of influence could hear about the Imperium, join it, and then
 ::>seek protection from its non-Imperial neighbors.  The Imperium could

> Article VIII lets them get off the hook in this.  But yes, it's
> an adventure hook.  "We, Cleon, appreciate the expression of
> allegiance from the planet Hueiner.  As to the request for aid
> in the dispute with the planet Bhuuli, We note that the
> relationship between Hueiner and Bhulli has historically
> followed the pattern of the colonial relationship between
> Raandhimm and Ahdbol, in the vicinity of Sylea.  We note that
> this therefore appears to be an internal matter, and We see no
> compelling reason to interfere in an internal matter, as per
> the First Article of the Warrant of Restoration."

Well, by definition it's not an internal matter, it's an interstellar 
matter and an "international matter".  I specified that Hueiner's 
problem was with its "non-Imperial neighbor" Bhuuli.  Now what can 
the Emperor say?  "Welcome to the Imperium.  Regarding your request 
for assistance against the external enemy known as Bhullli, We regret 
to inform you that the Imperial Navy is terribly busy, but We do wish 
to express Our gravest concern and hopes for your good luck."  That 
has actually happened in history, of course, but why invite it?  The 
opposition in the Moot will make hay of it:  "If the Emperor declines 
to defend Hueiner from an external threat, what will happen to your 
world when it's attacked by pirates or worse?  Why are in this Imperium 
in the first place?"

T::>(2) A group of highly developed worlds might decide to join the Imperium

> Same thing.  The Imperium can unilaterally choose to change the
> relationship between these worlds and itself.  That change
> _can_ be a total interdiction of the worlds in question.  Or an
> imposition of crushing taxes.  "We, Cleon, take note of the
> trade practices of the member worlds of the t'Rhussit Cluster.
> As these practices, in our perception, endanger the safety of
> the Imperium as a whole, We therefore order a blockade of the
> worlds of the t'Rhussit Cluster, and impose a temporary
> restabilization tax of fifteen hundred trillion Credits per
> annum upon each world in the Cluster."

This is a slippery slope, and the Emperor had better be very careful 
before venturing onto it.  If he imposes interdiction and an annual 
TCr1500 tax on t'Rhussit Cluster, what is to stop him from doing the 
same to your planet, although you've been with him since before year 0 
(but now oppose him on some issue)?  The Emperor and the Moot have guns 
pointed at each others' heads on this issue.  Opposition to the Emperor 
can have drastic results, but crushing such opposition can spark 
insurrection.  It's not that the Emperor lacks the legal authority to 
take such action, but that it may be politically devastating to do so.  

> Yes, there are some loopholes in the Warrant.  But the really
> important ones are designed to give the _Imperium_ the
> strength.  It's really quite a one-sided document.  Mostly
> because of Article VIII.

What do you mean "give the Imperium the strength"?  The function of 
the document is to govern intra-Imperial relations, i.e., relations 
among the constitutional constituencies of the Imperium:  the member 
worlds, the nobility, and the Emperor.  Who is the Imperium that is 
given the strength?

Relations between the Imperium and non-Imperial states -- including 
worlds that are considering joining, but have not yet done so -- are 
governed by treaty or some other agreement, not the Warrant.  Once 
the non-Imperial state decides to join and has a recognized 
representative proclaim allegiance, it becomes part of the balance 
of power in the Imperium.  

Thereafter, Article VIII allows "the Imperium" to alter its relationship 
with the new member in any way.  What does that mean?  I think that it 
means that the Emperor -- because the rest of the Imperium consists, 
after all, of the nobility and the member states -- can alter the 
relationship between himself and (including the Imperial government) on 
the one hand, and the new member on the other.  The political problem is 
that he can do the same to any member, for any reason.  Can he? Yes.  Does 
he dare to? It depends.  If he does it too often, or for reasons perceived 
as improper or dangerous by the Moot, the Moot might dissolve the Imperium.  
Can it? Yes.  Does it dare to?  It depends.  

The Imperium could avoid some of this brinksmanship by having an explicit 
acceptance stage in the process of joining.  Now the Imperium has to do 
all of its due diligence at the recognition stage.  

Nice job on the Warrant, Jeff (any inferences to the contrary from the 
foregoing notwithstanding).  I'm going to use it in my campaigns.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:52:44 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: computer game (was re: some questions)

- -> Say what are the features you think are critical to a traveller computer game?
A good backplot, set in the 3I, many subplots, multiple ways to solve 
the game, much player-npc interaction, trading, various classes of 
ships, more like Ultima than like Wing Commander! 

Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:59:44 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: First Survey 'Errata'

- -> To answer you, not exactly. A soon-to-appear M0/FS combined book will have
Any chance for those of us who already have one ore more of those 
boks to get a rebate like for the new Hardcover? 

- -> As an aside, I thought I had been given permission to correct some parts of
- -> it in the first part of The Long Way Home (yup, soon to be printed by IG!),
- -> but unfortunately that was a misunderstanding, so the planetary statistics
- -> in TLWH will have slightly different law levels and a couple of minor UWP
- -> changes for the area in which it's set (no specifics - this isn't intended
- -> to be a spoiler), compared to the FS data.
Any chance for those of us who bought the first editionm of TLWH to 
get an update pamphlet?
 
- -> You can be assured that in the subsequent part, I'll stick strictly to FS
- -> data which is totally accuuu... smeeeee...
smeee....heeee...! 
- ->         ERROR 1389: Disbelief overload.
- ->         Andy's brain has suffered an unexpected General Disbelief Fault
- ->         Rebooting...
- -> 
- ->         Installing IG Belief Driver...
- ->         Overwriting Traveller Canon...
- ->         Overwriting Logic Circuits...
- ->         Insanity Test... PASS
- ->         Command: Continue at last sentence.
Rotflm! 
 
- -> [Please forgive my sarcasm and apologies to anyone who hasn't seen Kryten in
- -> Red Dwarf...]
I *LOVE* that show! Seen that episode 3 times now. How can we 
convince BBC to rebroadcast the entire series? Pity Rimmer's gone now!
Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:21:49 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: MAJOR PROBLEM WITH QSDS/FFS

On Tue, 13 May 1997, David J. Golden wrote:

> At 09:10 am 05/13/97 +0200, you wrote:
> >                  +---------------------+ |
> >                  |      Small Craft    |E| Mother Ship
> >                  +---------------------+ |
> >
> >This should be no problem with crafts that are not to enter 
> >atmospheres.
> 
> 	Actually, it means the grapples have to be MUCH stronger, there's a great
> deal of force applied to both the grapple and the base of the small craft
> during even normal acceleration, much less evasion, and there are likely to
> be some serious bending moments on the small craft. So it is somewhat of a
> problem.

        But using superdense materials and for maybe a higher price
  it should still be possible, right?  

> -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
>    goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
>     *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***
> 

Tommy Grav                  tommy.grav@astro.uio.no    
Institute of Astrophysics   http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/
University in Oslo          "If you value your lives, be somwhere 
Norway                       else!" - Ambassador Delenn B5 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 00:58:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Apple II software for Trav

Having recently come into possesion of a Franklin Ace1200 (Apple II clone),
I'm wondering if anybody has spare copies of the old Apple II software
for Traveller.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 01:17:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: MAJOR PROBLEM WITH QSDS/FFS

In mail you write:

> But put the ship with its end toward the large ship and a much
> smaller area is used
>                   +---------------------+ |
>                   |      Small Craft    |E| Mother Ship
>                   +---------------------+ |
>
> This should be no problem with crafts that are not to enter 
> atmospheres.

Only if they never manuever. The way you have it grappled is the
absolute *worst* when it comes to stress placed on the grapples. Even
if the ship is merely boosting, that config is bad news.

Take a heavy keyboard or other elongated object and try holding it
parallel to the floor by only grabbing the small end. Feel how much
force you need? Then try holding by the long edge. It'll be *much*
easier. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 01:38:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Speed of Light

In mail you write:

> On Mon, 12 May 1997, Scott Ellsworth wrote:
>
>> Half of lightspeed gives a gamma = 0.866, so in 1000 years, your earthbound
>> friends would have aged 100 years, while you aged 866.  Note that the
>> problem is not symmetric because you accelerated.
>
> So at 99% the speed of light we are looking at for every 1000 years on
> earth, the spacebound occupents age aprox. 430 years?
>
> At the speed of light they would not age at all (time stops).
>
> Beyond the Speed of Light barrier I would move backwards in time (?)

No. You'd be moving *sideways* in time. Consider the results for a
speed of twice the speed of light:

v=2c	tau=sqrt(1-v^2/c^2)
tau=sqrt(1-(2c)^2/c^2)
tau=sqrt(1-4c^2/c^2)
tau=sqrt(1-4)
tau=sqrt(-3)
tau=1.7i

Note that we are taking the square root of a *negative* number. This
gives weird results unless you are familiar with the sorts of places
where it already happens in physics.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 02:17:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Crisis on Infinite Earths

In mail you write:

>> >Also a few other niggling things, like fusion drives and Heplar's.
>> 
>>       HEPLAR isn't realistic? It was way too realistic for me.
>
> Here's an odd though for the gearheads...
>
> What if you made a reaction drive from just water vapor? Here's the 
> idea:
>
> Use water (or some other volatile liquid) as a reaction mass...pump 
> this through the cooling system of the powerplant to get 
> copious quantities of steam, and vent that out the back of the ship 
> for thrust. Can you generate several G's worth of pressure that way? 
> The steam isn't radioactive (assuming no leaks in the PP radiator) 
> and should be fairly eco-friendly. You can couple this with CG to get 
> off planet, then kick the M-drive in.

The oxygen lowers the average molecular weight of that exhaust
*drastically* (18 instead of the 2 for hydrogen), that lowers the
specific impulse a lot.

If you use hydrogen (which will burn to water in oxygen atmospheres),
you just have a form of "NERVA" engine. That is, a rocket engine using
heat from a nuclear reaction to heat the exhaust, rather than chemical
reactions. 

Using a fusion reactor gets you better Isp than even the "gaseous core"
fission rocket. 

Frankly, given the various reactions discussed for fusion reactors,
most of them *won't* generate radioisotopes. Or you can "filter" the
plasma magnetically before releasing it. Either way, you'd be dumping
He4 and H (no D, T or He3) as the exhaust. Other than being hot as
hell, this isn't a problem. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:36:52 +0200
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Re: Traveller Jumpspace Wormhole Theory

Michael Solomani Mifsud wrote:

>On Tue, 13 May 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>> Black holes have been observed by the HST, one at the center of a galaxy
>> apparently has a mass several hundred *billion* times that of the sun.
>> Cygnuss X-1 has been observed for many years, and was recently confirmed to
>> be a black hole.
>
>hmmm, what is your source for this information?  I just pulled a source
>out now (dated 1993, so it could easily be dated) and I quote;
>
>"I have never seen a black hole .. no one has.  Astronomers have found
>only indirect evidence for the existence of black holes and *no*
>observational evidence for the existence of black holes."
>
>See the thing about black holes is that they are black, and the thing
>about space is that, well, its black too - so its hard finding the little
>(or giant) suckers.

I don't have any precise information but I remeber that Cygnus X-1 is a
huge source of X and Gamma rays. Further more there are great gravitic
disturbance in the orbit or nearby bodies which indicate that Cygnus X1 is
very massive and dense (seems to be more than neutron stars)

Anyone has more precise inforamtions? 
- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 97 12:26:00 PDT
From: David Elrick <David.Elrick@ps.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Captain, we're surrounded, and they're all armed with cano ns....

> >1. The maximum controlled jump is jump six.
> >2. Jump takes one week, plus or minus one day
> >3. While in jump, any interaction (including communication) with other
> >ships in jump, or with normal space is completely impossible.
>
> 4. Jump numbers correspond to the maximum number of parsecs (3.27 ly   
ea)
> travelled in a single jump.
>
> Parsecs are also refered to as 'hexes' in Imperial society ;-)

5. Jump drives use Lanthanum.

Kind Regards

Dave Elrick
david.elrick@ps.co.uk

 --------------------------------------------------------------------------  
 ------
There's thunderclouds round the hometown bay - as I walk out in the rain.
Through the sepia showers and the photoflood days.
I caught a fleeting glimpse of life - although the water's black as   
night,
The colours of Scotland leave you young inside.

   Runrig  - Hearts of Olden Glory
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------  
 --------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:44:25 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: ANCIENT Grandfather

> Read my other post, what I basically said was that the only time
>Grandfather seemed to interfere with other races was when he needed
>asisstents for his work.  I can only assume Humans were the only ones that
>had any potential in this area and/or the other races were not sentinent
>yet.

WARNING ANCIENT SPOILERS ALERT
WARNING ANCIENT SPOILERS ALERT
WARNING ANCIENT SPOILERS ALERT
WARNING ANCIENT SPOILERS ALERT
WARNING ANCIENT SPOILERS ALERT
WARNING ANCIENT SPOILERS ALERT
WARNING ANCIENT SPOILERS ALERT
WARNING ANCIENT SPOILERS ALERT
WARNING ANCIENT SPOILERS ALERT




There are coyns portraying all six major races but none other and the coyns
were introduced well before any of the six invented j-drive but Droyne.
This implies (to me) that Yaskoydroy had something to do with making each
of the major races develop j-drive. In my universe Yaskoydroys children set
off some super tech stuff that eventually would disturb the super race
known as baddies from the core. When he realised that he killed off his
children, destroyed as much of his doings as he could and hid in a pocket
universe (Grandfather knew about the baddies and what they could do). Later
ha gave certain races J-drives so that when the super hightech but sublight
baddies (my invention) arrived they'd blame one of the major races and kill
them off without ever knowing about grandfather. He put the psionic
Zhodanis closest to the arriving baddies in hope they'd be the prime
suspects. The baddies are known to have exterminated all jumpcapable
civilizations in the galaxy about 75 million years ago and this is the
reason there doesn't seem to be any other high tech civs in the galaxy
(otherwise why haven't the Imperium found them with radiotelescopes?).
Nobody (but me) knows why the baddies hate j-drives so much and only use
sublight themselves.

When my players will find this out they will probably kill grandfather
themselves.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 07:21:52 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: IG Pricing Policy

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Glenn Hoppe wrote:

> You know, it occured to me after I went to the movie on the weekend,=20
> that I think nothing of spending money for 2 hours of entertainment. 20=
=20
> bucks for the movie for 2, popcorn, drinks and gummie bears. And that=20
> was a matin=E9e!

Good example!


> Guess it's a matter of perspective.

That's it.  Plus, in the case of IG, when you look at direct substitutes=20
(i.e., other RPG's) you find that many are lower-priced.  But, I like to=20
think the quality of the current books is worthy of the cost.  (Hey, I'm=20
biased<G>.)


> Course, from what I've heard, you won't catch me spending two bucks on=20
> stinky ol' First Survey or Starships... ;-) >=20

In the case of Starships, I'd recommend getting FF&S and T4.1 instead as=20
far as ship design systems and some basic ship designs.  Someday they'll=20
re-do Starships (next year, most likely), and it'll be a better book (how=
=20
could it not be?). =20

As for First Survey, the data in that volume has, as Andy Lilly pointed=20
out, been declared correct by IG.  Stu and I just wrote 32 additional=20
pages for the upcoming combined product of Milieu 0 and FIrst Survey (I=20
think they're calling it "The Milieu 0 Campaign," and it will be=20
hardbound), and one chapter explains the LL=3DGov thing.  In a nutshell,=20
for the first few hundred years (indeed, until close to the real First=20
Survey is done) the IISS has no standardized Law Level for worlds; they=20
just use the Government code to approximate the level of strictness on=20
the world (which makes sense, because LL =3D Gov + 2D - 7, averaging around=
=20
the Gov score).  The chapter then goes on to provide a seven digit Law=20
Level extension for use by referees in detailing worlds.  The published=20
LL (i.e., the Gov score) will continue to be used as a rule of thumb, and=
=20
for casual travel to worlds (i.e., the PCs stop over at the starport,=20
make a quick trip to the next town over, and come back), while the LL=20
extension will be used for more detailed adventures on any given world.

The additional material also includes a timeline of the first 200 years,=20
the expansion of the 3I over the first 200 years, some data on what=20
happens during that first 200 years (Julian Wars, Pacification Campaigns,=
=20
and so on), as well as 10 Patrons and an Adventure (based around the=20
Scout Cruiser, which allowed us to include the missing deckplans in the=20
32 additional pages).

So, if you've already purchased First Survey, you've got the correct=20
data.  If you haven't purchased First Survey, you may want to wait until=20
the Milieu 0 Campaign comes out, and get the additional 32 pages (plus=20
get it all in a nice hardbound format).


- -Joe
___________________________________________________________________________=
___
Joseph E. Walsh  |  Game Designer for Marc Miller's Traveller
_________________|  Atari 1200XL and Apple IIGS User and Programmer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 07:39:36 +0000
From: twolf@unix.tfs.net
Subject: Re: IG Pricing Policy

> The damn thing was $2.50 cheaper.  All of the T4 stuff had been
> marked down.  All of the $22.50 supplements are now $20.00 at that
> store.
> 
> Even the main book was marked down.  
> 
> I'm not sure if this was something the store did, or if IG is 
> scaling back prices or offering dealer rebates or what.
> 
No this is a bad thing.  It means that the stuff isn't selling so the 
store is marking it down to get rid of it.  They will carry less of 
it in the future.

JD
Twolf

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 05:53:23 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Virus and falkj5t495ujg

At 12:07 AM 1/2/97 -0800, you wrote:

>Anywhos, any of y'all remebers where the Trav Navigator
>software was at? Was it any good?
>Also, a reveiw of the Trav suite would be Kind. The Demo
>was only kinda useful (waayy to crippled for a good test 
>drive)

This should be the link:

http://www.davtechsys.com/ftp.htm

>I'm all in favor of a gathering of the Tml westcoast
>Crowd. A sunday would be nice, but not Memorial day 
>weekend, its the kickoff of summer and the "how high or
>far" drunk tossing contest at my nameless Casino of
>employment. I'm in the running for both catagories. And
>if I miss a weekend like that I'm behind until the Forth..

Well, we can hash out a date later.


- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|   about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|   Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|     -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin" |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 05:51:32 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Jumpspace Wormhole Theory

At 06:09 PM 5/14/97 +1000, you wrote:

>hmmm, what is your source for this information?  I just pulled a source
>out now (dated 1993, so it could easily be dated) and I quote;

The observations were made in 96 and 97.. check out:

http://www.drdale.com/index.htm

for some good links (I've misplaced the HST page.. help?)

>See the thing about black holes is that they are black, and the thing
>about space is that, well, its black too - so its hard finding the little
>(or giant) suckers.

But the accretion disk glows like Kryten's smegging head after a date with
Camille.

>Agreed, I never said otherwise - BUT I would rather "mathematically
>feasible" (which is incorrect, should read "mathematically PROVED") and
>"conjecture" over complete fantasy and lots of hand waving (RE: Jump
>Drives).

It has also been mathematically proven that bumble bees are incapable of
flight.  You care to tell them that their in violation?  Until it is
observed, it's a nice theory.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|   about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|   Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|     -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin" |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 05:43:04 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth

At 06:41 PM 5/14/97 +1000, you wrote:
>On Tue, 13 May 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>
>I cant see the relevence of most of your response. I asked if anyone felt
>any of Traveller was a little to fantastic, a little to much
>hand-waving, not that we should rip jump drives out and replace them with
>something else.   But I will respond none the less.
>
>Fantastic=Fantasy as in D&D.
>
>[snip]
>> I love it when anybody attempts to predict what the future will be like.
>> We could keep growing by leaps and bounds technologically until we reach
>> the point where I can be uploaded into an interstellar probe and sent to
>> seed the universe with copies of myself, or we could hit a ceiling in the
>> next twenty years, and stay there for centuries waiting for the next
>> pivitol breakthrough.
>
>There are limits though.  Making stuff up that completely violates our
>current understanding of the universe belongs in D&D,  sci-fi should be
>*atleast* bound by the Laws we have already discovered.

OK, then why bother role-playing?  I live in a very real universe, I don't
need to spend my play time there too.  You seem to be discounting some of
the greastest works of science-fiction with a wave of the hand.  Shall we
burn all of the Dragonriders of Pern series because the dragons violate the
square/cube law?  How about Foundation?  FTL commo and travel are common.

Take a chunk of metal.  Let go.  It falls, right?  This was the accepted
understanding of the way the universe worked for thousands of years.  Then
people started looking at aerodynamics, and now I can make a pretty good
living taking people to a place where they get into machines weighing tons
that fly through the air.  Our understanding of the universe changes, and
it is the worst sort of hubris to claim that we are near understanding all
of it.

The moment you can show me a mathematical proof that jump drives *can't*
work, I'll give up all hope of booking passage to Dingir.

>[snip]
>> Clarke's Law.  Take my computer back to Aloan Turing in the late 1940s.  He
>> won't beleive what he's seeing with his own two eyes.  Show Henry Ford tape
>> of the Indianapolois 500.. He'll goggle at the very idea.  Ever single
>> piece of technology was magic and fantasy until somebody invented it.  The
>> magic cave of Ali Baba?  A voice-pattern lock key to a correct phrase..
>> common place nowadays.  *I've* been cured of a disease that as little as 30
>> years ago was not treatable!  A turn of the century doctor would call that
>> a miracle!
>
>I see what your saying, but something "amazing" as opposed to calling
>something "god like" is a different ball park.  Also, how can you speak
>for anyone at all?  Did you know Mr. Ford personally? Knew his views on
>what the car would become? I doubt it.

In the early 1970s, UN workers brought a tractor to a remote village in
Burma as part of a modernization program.  The UNies demostrated how the
tractor could plow a field, instructed a few of the men in its operation,
and left.  A year later, they returned, curious that the village hadn't
ordered any gas for the tractor.  They found the tractor on an altar,
draped with flowers.  They were worshipping it.  This was after the whole
thing had been explained to them.. it was still too much for their worldview.

>After the initial *surprise* he may sit down and say, "hey, I should of
>expected this".  Then he may not - whos to say.

My point was that Alan Turing wouldn't be able to grasp the most basic idea
behind a laptop running Windows 3.1.  The technology of microprocessors,
motherboards, storage medium, etc.. had progressed beyond what he could
imagine.  In the late 40s, an expert predicted the day when the world could
possibly need as many as *five* computers!

There is a scene in Harry Turtledove's WorldWar series where British radar
techs are examining an alien fighter, hoping to adapt its advanced
technology.  They open up the front of the nose, and are shocked to see
there are no vacuum tubes, just purple boards with gold lines on them.

>The reason? Our general everday understanding of the Universe has
>increased a thousand fold when compared to primitive mans understanding.

And what if we're compleatly wrong about a basic assumption?  It has
happened before...

>> So who's to say that next year some bright grad student won't crack the
>> secret of anti-grav or cheap fusion?  If they do, our children and
>[snip]
>
>They wont be discovered *if* they violate the rules of the universe.  So
>either the rules are wrong, or the discovery is impossible - I would like
>to think the rules are right, or very close to right at this point in
>time.

Why is it that every generation assumes that it knows everything?  In 1901,
the chairman of the US patent board recommended closing his office because
"everything that can be invented already has been."  There are many secrets
left to discover.. and once again, we won't know what they are until we
find them.

>> Because jump drive works.  It is the only known method IN THE TRAVELLER
>> UNIVERSE to travel FTL.  Try GURPS.. Space and Vehicles 2nd Ed have a
>> number of different ways to get around.
>
>So?  If we discover that the method Traveller uses is wrong, completely
>foundless, but an alternative will *probably* work given the right
>technology level, would you still stick with the Traveller Jump Drives?

Yes, because it is Traveller, not reality.  When 1996 came and went without
war breaking out between the Soviet Union and China, followed by a
forceable reunification attempt by West Germany with the Ost, did I throw
out all my Twilight: 2000 stuff? No, the game is still entertaining, even
if it is grossly wrong on a few points.

>> How about if you were offered a new body?  By definition, you couldn't be
>> surprised by something you expected.  My man of 1930 above couldn't have
>> expect to find a black man running the city, it was unthinkable in his
>> time, and he had no reason to believe things would ever change.
>
>No I wouldnt be *shocked* I wouldnt be so stunned by the revelation that
>humans can now transplant minds to new bodys that I would consider it the
>realm of the gods.   Surprised of course, but no so surprised I could not
>cope with it.

Who said anything about brain transplants.  :)


- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|   about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|   Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|     -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin" |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1318
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
0Traveller-digest      Wednesday, May 14 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1319



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: MAJOR PROBLEM WITH QSDS/FFS
Re: Traveller Jumpspace Wormhole Theory
Re: BRTC/CORPS - Where?
Re: Core Expedition dates
Re: IG Pricing Policy
Virus
Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth
Re: IG Pricing Policy
Re: More EA Nits
Re: BRTC/CORPS - Where?
Patent Office Quotation
Ancients and jump-space
Re: Captain, we'er surrounded, and they're all armed with canons
Max Psi Range Is?
Re: ANCIENT Grandfather
Black holes and such
Re: Jump-6 limit
T4 House rules for hackers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:30:50 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: MAJOR PROBLEM WITH QSDS/FFS

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
> 
> 
> Only if they never manuever. The way you have it grappled is the
> absolute *worst* when it comes to stress placed on the grapples. Even
> if the ship is merely boosting, that config is bad news.
> 
> Take a heavy keyboard or other elongated object and try holding it
> parallel to the floor by only grabbing the small end. Feel how much
> force you need? Then try holding by the long edge. It'll be *much*
> easier. 

But still today we have aeroplanes with wings put on like this.
With the advances in material strenght they have made in Traveller
I really don't see why this configuration is so bad, for a unstreamlined
ship of course. Hell we have ships with armor that will withstand
a 12G missile hit, and the material is not supposed to handle this
situation for a 6G acceleration ship. I really disagree with you.

> 
> -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
> 

Tommy Grav                  tommy.grav@astro.uio.no    
Institute of Astrophysics   http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/
University in Oslo          "If you value your lives, be somwhere 
Norway                       else!" - Ambassador Delenn B5 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:33:46 -0400
From: Nikodemus <tauman@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Jumpspace Wormhole Theory

Nicolas LEJEUNE wrote:
> 
> Michael Solomani Mifsud wrote:
> 
> >On Tue, 13 May 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> >> Black holes have been observed by the HST, one at the center of a galaxy
> >> apparently has a mass several hundred *billion* times that of the sun.
> >> Cygnuss X-1 has been observed for many years, and was recently confirmed to
> >> be a black hole.
> >
> >hmmm, what is your source for this information?  I just pulled a source
> >out now (dated 1993, so it could easily be dated) and I quote;
> >
> >"I have never seen a black hole .. no one has.  Astronomers have found
> >only indirect evidence for the existence of black holes and *no*
> >observational evidence for the existence of black holes."
> >
> >See the thing about black holes is that they are black, and the thing
> >about space is that, well, its black too - so its hard finding the little
> >(or giant) suckers.
> 
> I don't have any precise information but I remeber that Cygnus X-1 is a
> huge source of X and Gamma rays. Further more there are great gravitic
> disturbance in the orbit or nearby bodies which indicate that Cygnus X1 is
> very massive and dense (seems to be more than neutron stars)
> 
> Anyone has more precise inforamtions?
> -----------
> Nicolas LEJEUNE
>    Engineer, Paris, France
>    Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
>    Mailto:nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

Actually, if I remember correctly, there was some observational evidence
from the hubble space telescope within the last few years.  Obviously
indirect, but supposedly very strong evidence, nonetheless.  This was
very recent, so a source dated 1993 might be too old.

- --/tauman

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 07:38:17 -0600 (MDT)
From: "P. ENGEBOS" <pengebos@NMSU.Edu>
Subject: Re: BRTC/CORPS - Where?

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Andy Long wrote:

> >>>>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From:	Glenn Hoppe [SMTP:starcity@eagle.wbm.ca]
> >Sent:	Wednesday, May 14, 1997 4:10 AM
> >Neat! I downloaded Mr. Porters CORPS in a nutshell from the BRTC website 
> >and found his combat system intriguing... especially since I also 
> >recently purchased 3G3. I'm disappointed in the "coarseness" of Traveller 
> >weaponry. I mean, with damage ratings maxing out at 3, and very few range 
> >bands, that doesn't leave much room for variety.
> >[andy long]  <<<<
> >
> >Where can I find them, please?

The CORPS nutshell is at the BTRC website:
	http://members.aol.com/btrc/

Peter Engebos				<pengebos@nmsu.edu>
T'Sarith, Lord deGaalth			<tsarith@io.com>
		http://web.nmsu.edu/~pengebos/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 07:32:46 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Core Expedition dates

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Michael Solomani Mifsud wrote:

> 
> Does anyone have the dates of the Solomani Core Expeditions?

Do you mean the Zhodani Core Expeditions? There were some deep rimward
Solomani exploratory missions, those were mentioned on the list a while
back.

The Zhodani sourcebook has the Core expedition data. I know there have
been eight or so, but that's all I know, since I don't have the Zhodani
book, and the source I have is the MT Rebellion sourcebook which simply
mentions that the Core expeditions have been an obsession of theirs for a
long time.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:24:05 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: IG Pricing Policy

Zhodani agents report that Joseph E. Walsh wrote:

- -> As for First Survey, the data in that volume has, as Andy Lilly
- -> pointed out, been declared correct by IG.  Stu and I just wrote 32
I don't believe it!!!!!  First they mess up, and now they declare it 
official? I feel not just a bit angry now! If i was Cleon and ordered 
my Scouts to make a detailed summary of all worlds, i would throw 
their reports back into their faces if they came back with only 
approximations! Law Level is important for Travelklers, one of the 
most important info they need, and the Scout service only gives 
aproximations? I would fire them all and hire new guns if i were 
Cleon!
Plus the fact that the text of M:0 still doesn't match the data this 
way and Vland still has too few inhabitants and......

I truly believe they are just too lazy to admit their mistakesd and 
work the data over again...
Up till now i was a fan of MM and IG rooting for them, pushing their 
product on every chance i had,  but if they pull this off,  I don't 
know anymore......
- -> 
- -> The additional material also includes a timeline of the first 200
- -> years, the expansion of the 3I over the first 200 years, some data
- -> on what happens during that first 200 years (Julian Wars,
- -> Pacification Campaigns, and so on), as well as 10 Patrons and an
- -> Adventure (based around the Scout Cruiser, which allowed us to
- -> include the missing deckplans in the 32 additional pages).
So more info, that the owners of the first edition will never have if 
they are not willing to buy the otherwise same book again! I am 
getting angrier by the minute. I liked M, i really really did, but i 
am tired of only getting beta test versions for my hard earned money! 
Add to that that the books are a lot more expensive here in Germany 
than in the States and are overprices even there, it makes Traveller 
an expensive hoppy to have, too expensive for me!
- -> 
- -> So, if you've already purchased First Survey, you've got the
- -> correct data.  If you haven't purchased First Survey, you may want
grrrrrrrrr  Calling this data "correct"  is a joke! Correct data 
to me would be data that's Correct, not data that is plainly false 
and not true in the Traveller universe and then declared correct.

MM and IG should stick to established Traveller lore and remain 
logically consistant to it!

I mailed a copy of this mal ito the TML, 
and to IG, and hope to generate any official  comments .

Joe, i must admit that i am a bit disappointed in you that you 
support this practice, i thought that you were "one of us"!
Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:36:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: pierre-louis constantin <Pierre-Louis.Constantin@DMI.USherb.CA>
Subject: Virus

Howdy!
=20
	How do I join the Traveller-Canon mailing list=C9?  <snicker>
=20
	Speaking of Virus, has anybody thought of a jump-capable
version?  I mean that the virus could hitch a ride on a starship into
jump space, jump off and just wait in jump space for another ship to
come by.  Jump Space is so mysterious, it might not actually break
canon.


- --=20
Pierre-Louis Constantin, ift. a. 	"He whose name was writ in E-mail."
(: "I hate fanatics with a passion; all extremists should be shot." :)
	    How's my surfing? http://www.dmi.usherb.ca/~constanp/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 07:47:31 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth

> 
> Actually was it not ASIMOV who stated that a sufficiently advanced
> technology will be indistinguishable from magic?

Nope, 'twas Clarke, his great rival,  not Asimov, the other two laws are:

1) If an elderly , but distinguished scientist claims something is totally
impossible, he is almost certainly wrong.

2) If an elderly, but distinguished scientist claims something IS
possible, then he is almost certainly correct.

> The reason I say this is that I can definetly imagine stunning
> breakthrough's in area's we do not currently fully understand - but
> generally only in area's we already atleast have an inclining of.
> 
> I would also suspect that completely unheard of ideas and methods would
> also be discovered and used, but these would be far and few between.
> 
	Why? In the last 100 years we have gone from a purely mechanist
view of the universe, where there was serious doubt that heavier than air
craft could ever work or be practical to a quantum physical world where we
fly into space on a regular basis.

Why do you think we're going to slow down?

Yes, I did get the picture of the 27, not quite what I see in _my_ mind's
eye...what I see is more similar to a 'rod and ribbon' model of a compact
protein, if you have a biochem textbook handy, or like those string and
dowel 'sculptures' set into something like a geodesic dome, but with far
less regularity. Something that looks incredibly flimsy.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:09:12 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: IG Pricing Policy

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Volker A. Greimann wrote:

> I truly believe they are just too lazy to admit their mistakesd and 
> work the data over again...

Then again, it could always be an economic consideration.


> Up till now i was a fan of MM and IG rooting for them, pushing their 
> product on every chance i had,  but if they pull this off,  I don't 
> know anymore......

Sorry, but I've never noted you saying kind things about IG or its 
products.  Your comments have ranged from very negative to neutral.  You're 
entitled to your opinion, and you're entitled to express that opinion.  
However, your previous posts aren't in agreement with what you have written 
above.  


> So more info, that the owners of the first edition will never have if 
> they are not willing to buy the otherwise same book again! 

Okay, that's a reasonable argument.  But another reasonable argument 
would be, should a company never improve its products simply because 
earlier versions have been purchased?  Should Microsfot Windows have 
stopped at version 1.0, simply because people had purchased it?  


> grrrrrrrrr  Calling this data "correct"  is a joke! Correct data 
> to me would be data that's Correct, not data that is plainly false 
> and not true in the Traveller universe and then declared correct.

Why isn't it correct?  It's a game; having the casual LL be equal to Gov 
type in the M0 period doesn't break the game at all.  It still provides a 
wide range of law levels.  And, the new rules provide additional law 
level detail and variation for those who desire it.


> Joe, i must admit that i am a bit disappointed in you that you 
> support this practice, i thought that you were "one of us"!

Heh.  I'm certainly not in favor of Traveller products being of inferior 
quality.  I worked hard at bringing the _Starships_ flaws to IG's 
attention.  I spent a lot of my time keeping people informed for many 
months, when nothing at all was coming out of IG.  Finally, I earned the 
opportunity to design Traveller products (along with my compatriots in 
CORE, and the other designers) and I've been working hard to create the 
best products I can within the guidelines handed down by IG.

In this instance, IG looked at the balance sheet and saw that they could 
not afford to print new galleys of Milieu 0 and First Survey at this 
point.  Yet, they wanted to decrease the cost to new customers for the M0 
setting materials.  So, they are combining the two volumes into one, 
hardbound volume (which costs considerably less than the two, separate 
softbound volumes), and adding 32 pages of material that should have been 
in M0/FS to begin with.  Finally, they came up with a plausible, workable 
explanation for the LL=Gov problem in FS.  They asked Stu and I to 
implement that solution, design the tables, and design the rest of the 32 
pages of additional material.

Objectively, it still seems the best solution overall.  The perfect 
solution would have been to fix the typos in M0, fix the data in FS, 
print it up in the hardbound format, and send it for free to everyone who 
bought the previous volumes.  But, IG's in business to make a profit.  
That means they have to keep their customers happy - which means they 
couldn't do the other extreme, which would have been to completely 
invalidate the previous FS data, issue a new book, and say, "tough; buy 
it or you'll be lost when supplements come out that are based on the new 
data."  

Instead, they compromised and implemented the solution outlined above.  
Everyone who has FS will be able to follow along with future 
supplements, as the data therein is correct.  Those who choose to buy 
the new "Milieu 0 Campaign" hardbound will have the same data we do, the 
same M0 book we do, plus 32 extra pages.  And, for years to come, all 
the future purchasers will buy the Milieu 0 Campaign hardback and have a 
volume that has not only the same data in it, but IG's fix as well.  In 
short, the solution is a good compromise now, and it will continue to 
work in the future.

That's business.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh  |  Game Designer for Marc Miller's Traveller
_________________|  Atari 1200XL and Apple IIGS User and Programmer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:04:53 -0500 (CDT)
From: lee@uansv2.Vanderbilt.Edu (Mike Lee)
Subject: Re: More EA Nits

On  Tue, 13 May 1997 14:33:58 -0400, Mark Urbin wrote:

Since T4 added the fencing (with a sword, not moving hot comm units) skill,
and made such a fuss about Nobles dueling, I would have like to see what a
well dressed M-0 Sylean noble carried.

        I think that, like the nobles of 17th century France, weapons worn
by the nobility would fall into two classes: ornamental and fighting blades.
Because Imperial worlds are generally more secure than the French
countryside in the 1600's (not too much fear of highwaymen on Sylea, and
even if a noble encountered a bandit, he'd likely be carrying a firearm of
some kind, which sort of negates the danger of a sword), most nobles would
wear ornamental blades at social occasions for two reasons: they would be
lighter and more comfortable than a fighting blade, and would allow a degree
of "chrome" that would compromise the integrity of a more businesslike weapon.
        An ornamental blade would be shorter (2 to 2.5 feet) and lighter (1
to 1.25 pounds) so as to make it less intrusive to milord's regal bearing.
It's distracting to have to wear a 3-foot (or longer) blade in crowded
conditions, because you always have to be watching to make sure you don't
smack someone in the leg or trip them as you're moving around.  It makes
sitting down an awkward, sometimes noisy affair, and keeping the blade under
control requires the use of your left hand, which could be better served
holding drinks, hors d'ouvres, or milady's hand.  The ornamental blade is a
badge of status and wealth, no more.  As a result it can be fitted out with
expensive engraving, jewels, and precious metal plating- things you wouldn't
want covered in gore or scratched and nicked by another fellow's blade.
These swords could be works of art out of a heroic fantasy, thanks to
advanced metallurgy and processing techniques.  But you wouldn't want to
fight with them.
        Should milord find himself the object of a challenge, he would then
resort to his fighting blades.  I would expect there to be a fairly rigid
Code Duella in M:0, similar to the rules observed in 1600's France.  You
don't just throw down in the middle of the Emperor's birthday soiree.  Once
a challenge is issued, the challenged party can accept or decline.  If he
accepts, then the challenger picks the time for the duel, and the challenged
party chooses the place and the weapons to be used, which is a
check-and-balance that helps keep the right of challenge from being abused.
There is a story, for instance, about a certain French noble who sought to
evade paying for some work he had commissioned by challenging the blacksmith
he had employed to a duel.  The blacksmith, of course, knew that he hadn't a
prayer of beating the noble in a contest of swords.  However, as the
challenged party, he had the choice of choosing the place and the weapons.
So he accepted the challenge and declared that the duel would be fought with
sledgehammers, in five feet of water (the noble was five-six) at the village
pond.
        Once the particulars have been worked out, the duellists each choose
a second, who witnesses the fight and ensures that the other fellow doesn't
cheat.  Then out come the fighting blades.  These would be simple and
unornamented tools of destruction, finely made and well-balanced, 3,
sometimes 4 feet long, and weighing 1.5 to 2 pounds.  The type of duelling
blades would vary, depending on different fencing styles and schools of
thought.  Duels historically were fought with rapier, rapier & dagger,
rapier & cloak, rapier & rapier, or sabre.  There were also schools of
duelling with two-handed swords and polearms, for those with more
testosterone than they knew what to do with.  I think that over time a
similar situation would evolve in the Imperium, with different fencing
schools and styles coming in and out of vogue over time.
        While ornamental blades would be most common at court, there would
always be exceptions.  A fencing enthusiast might wear his fighting weapons
to court, or drape a duelling cloak over his shoulder as a way of
advertising his skills and inclinations.  Swords of Note (such as the
signatory blades of noble houses or knightly orders) could fall into either
of the two categories, depending on the personality and inclinations of the
founder of the line.
        A noble who commissions a blade might have two courses of
manufacture to choose from.  A very select number of craftsmen might still
be making blades by hand, which is a fine art that requires tremendous skill
and patience.  These weapons would be unique to their owners, made to order,
and taking advantage of very pure ore and treating processes available at
TL10.  They would also be very, very expensive, and would require some time
to build.  A waiting list of up to two years would be common.  Oddly, the
price between ornamental and fighting weapons would be fairly even, as the
cost of an ornamental blade would be in the price of the plating and jewels,
while a fighting weapon's price would stem from the more demanding attention
that a combat tool would require.
        Another course is to have a blade machine-made, which would be less
expensive but mass-produced to a degree.  A blade made with TL10 technology
could be drawn out, balanced, and tempered with computer-driven precision,
then laminated with a plastic coating that kept the steel forever free from
rust or grime.  The blade edge could be kept very hard and sharpened by
laser, to hold a deadly edge and resist dulling .  As a final touch, both
ornamental and fighting blades could be inscribed with beautiful and precise
laser etching, which could beautify the weapon without any hammering or
chiseling which might compromise its integrity.  An ornamental blade could
be covered in a glittering holographic design depicting a family's victory
in battle, or a fighting blade might bear its name etched in crimson script
along its length.
         

What's a good solid Imperial Marine Cutlass like?  Heavier than the rapier,
keeps an edge through the Marines hitch.  Even when it's used to chop
firewood, or to pry the lids off wine crates.  Oh ya, it has to stay
looking good.  Is there an Imperial Sunburst on the bell guard, along with
the Unit insigna?

        Solid is the word.  I envision a blade 2.5 feet long and about four
inches wide, shaped like en enlarged version of the current Marine issue
Ka-bar.  Weight would be a hefty three pounds, with a triangular blade
cross-section to add strength and stability.  The blade would be
case-hardened steel, machine-forged to precise specifications of hardness,
and laminated against rust.  The edge would be case-hardened,
laser-sharpened and laminated as well.  You can leave the thing in the mud
for a week, throw it from the back of a moving car, drop it off a cliff, and
the thing will still chop wood, drive shelter stakes, and cut people with
equal effeciency.  The finish would be blued or a natural carbon-black (you
don't want a mirror-finish while you're creeping around under a full moon),
with the Imperial sunburst etched on the bell guard.  On the blade, just
above the hilt, would be a stamp mark showing a serial number and a stamp
where the blade was forged.  Unit insignia would likely be left off, as the
weapons would be mass-produced, and intended to be generally interchangeable
between Marine units.
        A cutlass is an ugly, businesslike weapon.  It is a fighting blade.
For dress purposes or awards, there would be a different sword, like the
Marine's Mamluke saber currently in use.  Picture a saber whose blade is
made with a high content of Chromium, making it gleam like a silvered
mirror.  Beautiful and precise scrollwork is etched along the length of the
blade, along with the recepient's name, rank, and unit.  The hilt and guard
are plated with silver or gold, and machine-polished to dazzling brightness.
        Hope all this is helpful.  I'm considering doing a JTAS article on
the Code Duella of the Imperium, and the weapons, schools, and tactics
involved  (maybe even some rules additions).  Do you think this would be
something that Traveller players might find interesting or useful?

Mike Lee

        

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 08:35:28 -0700
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: BRTC/CORPS - Where?

Andy Long wrote:
> 
> >-----Original Message-----
> >Neat! I downloaded Mr. Porters CORPS in a nutshell from the BRTC website
> >and found his combat system intriguing... especially since I also
> >recently purchased 3G3. I'm disappointed in the "coarseness" of Traveller
> >weaponry. I mean, with damage ratings maxing out at 3, and very few range
> >bands, that doesn't leave much room for variety.
>
> Where can I find them, please?
> 
> Andy

You can download the CORPS in a nutshell document (a 4-page .pdf file)
at the following location:

<http://members.aol.com/btrc/html/nutshell.htm>

If you are interested in purchasing Greg Porter's 3G3 (Guns! Guns! Guns!
v.3), which is a design sequence for firearms and other weaponry with
conversion sequences for a multitude of rpg's, check out the Hyperbooks
Online Bookstore at <http://www.hyperbooks.com/> The paper version and
an inexpensive electronic .pdf version are available.

Gee, Mr. Porter should be paying me commission. :-) Just a satisfied
customer.
- -- 
====== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /---- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X->  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275  \
 -----------------------/ \=========== Eschew Obfuscation ===========

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:17:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Patent Office Quotation

  As the historian of technology on this list, it falls to me to correct
this error, as I try to correct it wherever I see it (maybe some day it
will die - I doubt it).  Here is a little something written by the
historian Steve Lubar on this matter (the idea that the patent commisioner
said that everything had been invented already)

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 19:31:40 EDT
From: Steven Lubar <MAH0H06@SIVM.SI.EDU>
Reply-To: History of Technology Discussion <HTECH-L@SIVM.BITNET>
To: Multiple recipients of list HTECH-L <HTECH-L@SIVM.BITNET>
Subject: Quotation.

Not that quote again!!!  The definitive history of the quote was done in
1940, by Eber Jeffery, in the Journal of the Patent Office Society. The
Commissioner of Patents who said it was Henry Ellsworth, in 1843; and he
meant it rhetorically, as in, isn't it amazing how many inventions are
being made today....

There's a brief explanation of this in Scientific American, February 1996,
page 32.

Steven Lubar (mah0h06@sivm.si.edu)    202-357-2371
Division of the History of Technology
National Museum of American History, Smithsonian Institution

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:35:01 -0400
From: Douglas N Sinclair <sinclai@ecf.toronto.edu>
Subject: Ancients and jump-space

In my campaign, jump-space is an Ancient artifact in itself.  The reason
the galaxy wasn't overrun with jump capable aliens long ago is because
it took a Tl 31 race to construct the jump-space in the first place.
The Tl-9 jump-drive is only an interface device.

I have further speculated, but not actually played, that jump-space
only works around known-space and the Zhodani core corridor.  This
would allow for Vinge style slow zones.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:28:22 GMT
From: starwolf@sn.no (StarWolf)
Subject: Re: Captain, we'er surrounded, and they're all armed with canons

On Tue, 13 May 1997 19:25:03 GMT, starwolf@sn.no (StarWolf) wrote:

>On Tue, 13 May 1997 14:44:03 -0900, Harry
><paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au> wrote:
>
>
>>I'll start the ball rolling with jump drives.
>>
>>1. The maximum is jump six.
>>
>>2. Jump takes one week=20
>>
>>3. While in jump, any interaction with other ships in jump, or with =
normal
>>space is completely immpossible.
>
>I hate to do this but.... OK I love it :)
>If my memory seres me right, in one of the Challenge issues there is a
>TNS entry about a rumored breakthrough in Jump technology at a
>research station (RS). If I don't remember wrong the RS was in or near
>Solomani Rim sector.
>
>I'l try to find it tomorrow, and give better reference.

I found it. The TNS in Challenge 36 states the following:

Terra/Sol    Date: 123-1118
=46rom the notes gathered from the wreckage of the hotel room where
Jefferey Long and his family were murdered earlier this year, his
publisher has produced and released a draft of his works entitled "the
hyperspace web".
In it, Lon's notes suggest that he was jailed by Imperial authorities
when his investigative work, into the problems and mysteries of
hyperspace sickness, was becoming uncomfortable to naval researchers.
It states that popularized reasearch into the sickness was getting
dangerously close to research facilites the Imperial Navy had working
on breaking the jump-6 barrier.

This isn't much, but it does indicate that controlled jumps beyond 6
parsecs may be possible. And Referees Companion does mention other FTL
types at TL 18+

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Myhre                 |"Never worry about theory as long as the=20
http://home.sn.no/~starwolf | machinery does what it's supposed to do."
Universal Internet          |
            Number: 127772  |                  -- R. A. Heinlein

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:55:36 -0400
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: Max Psi Range Is?

The psi rules in T4 give 6 different range bands.  The longest extends to
1500m, which is less than a mile.  

Is this truly the farthest that a psi can use his abilities?  

A Zho commando can only teleport 1 mile?  Doesn't sound as scary as I thought.

 James Garriss           Information Systems Engineer, MITRE
 jpg@langley.mitre.org        http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:46:42 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: ANCIENT Grandfather

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Anders Backman wrote:
 
> When my players will find this out they will probably kill grandfather
> themselves.

Now THAT'S what I call a SERIOUS munchkin campaign ;-)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:44:27 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Black holes and such

Someone, I think it was Solomani, mentioned that he didn't think we had
evidence of black holes. Here's sort of a picture of one:

http://oposite.stsci.edu/pubinfo/PR/97/12.html

It's available through the main Hubble site

http://stdatu.stsci.edu/

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:47:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Jump-6 limit

StarWolf wrote:

>I hate to do this but.... OK I love it :)
>If my memory seres me right, in one of the Challenge issues there is a
>TNS entry about a rumored breakthrough in Jump technology at a
>research station (RS). If I don't remember wrong the RS was in or near
>Solomani Rim sector.
>
>I'l try to find it tomorrow, and give better reference.

Actually, I think it was the Jumpspace Institute in Deneb Sector. Formerly
Pashus, in TNE called Depot Beta.

Best,

Chris Griffen

===================================================
Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.

http://www.cris.com/~Cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml


- --------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                      Phone: (408) 527-7189
Cisco Systems, Inc.                      Fax:   (408) 527-0452
NMBU Technical Publications              cgriffen@cisco.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:15:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: T4 House rules for hackers

Based on an old TML post I did back in '95...

Hacking House Rules for T4

These rules are based on the rules for computers in the CSC ppg. 42-43.

The main emphasis on hacking is to do your intrusion attempt in as little 
time as possible, in T4 this means having your program finish doing its 
thing in 10 seconds before the bells and wistles go off.  Time is calculated 
using the computer processing speeds table.

3     Real Time
2     0.1s
1     1.0s
0     10s
 -1    100s(1.5min)
 -2    1000s(15min)
 -3    10000s(2.5 hrs)
 -4    100000s(1 day)

Most portible computers are at a rate of 2, as are 'House' Computers.  The 
maxium data rate will only allow a level of 2 on the open air comm system. 
 But a direct line connection negates that.  Example a level 2 hand computer 
w/o a dedicated hacking program could hack into any unprotected level 2 
system on the comm-net within 10 seconds.  This is mostly what is out there 
on the net, peoples house computers and relatively "green" areas.  This 
isn't realy hacking, this is just sneaking around using someone elses ID and 
passcode.  By the way Hacking is more dificult than simple searching, 
cruising and figuring out "Portals-0" regestry tables.  Therefore it 
warrents the Formidable(3d) skill level

Secure Systems
I have given the Imperium 3 standards of computer security, based off of the 
TAS travel codes:
GREEN     Unprotected System.  Generaly Available Information
AMBER    Protected System.  What most businesses use to encrypt data and 
secure systems.
RED         Interdicted System.  This is the HEAVY ICE folks.  Government 
and Military data, and some Megacorps.  Super Secret Stuff! If they catch 
you, Buh-BYE!

To hack the realy big systems you need a dedicated program.  The House Rule 
I use for programs is that the machine can run up to the computer level of 
the computer, for example a LV 2 computer can run 2 LV 1 programs or one LV 
2. "Dedicated" programs, or those programs for a specific purpose require 
all of the computers memory capacity.  Storage is not a problem, optical, 
digital, and holgraphic storage media take care of that, but as a rule of 
thumb, I figure that a computer has a stock "Hard Drive" that can store(not 
run) Computer LV squared in program levels.  Additional storage can always 
be bought.

Ok so you loaded a "ICEBREAKER" program into your handcomp.  First of all 
this is the ONLY program u can run at this time.  Secondly your computer is 
now considered "Dedicated" and gets the +1 bonus to processing ability.  As 
long as you are hacking, your computer is considered a LV 3.  Now you need 
some way to reduce the time, this is where your skill (and luck) of a hacker 
come in.  To reduce the time by one step, increase the difficuly one step. 
 In my system, because I have players who like to push the envelope I just 
keep adding dice!

Ok, heres an example:
You have just jacked into the net using your homecomp, which by the way is 
connected via lines and not sat-comm-net.  You load up your "ICEBREAKER" 
program and look for that bank computer.  You get to the Banks datafortress 
and attempt to pass yourself off as an employee with full account access. 
 Lets say the bank is a local system, a level 3 system with Amber Access. 
 That makes it a level 5 to your 3.  It would take 15 min normaly to hack 
the system.  You work fast using every trick you know.  You need to reduce 
the level by 2 steps, +2 difficulty.  Well bud, roll 5d under computer. 
 Failure means an intrusion has been recorded and tracing is underway, you 
now have 10 secs to get what you need and get out before the ICE (Intrusion 
Countermeasure Electronics) comes, spectacular failure means that the ICE 
may send the police after you, send and EMV pulse to fry your deck, or 
whatever the evil GM has in store for you, you little punk!  Success gives 
access, but if some data packets are encrypted, you still need to decrypt. 
 Decryption is not a prob, you can decrypt there in cyberspace, or save the 
file and decrypt later.  Decryption has the same security levels as system 
security.  (This same meathod is used to decrypt comm signals by the way).

Here's a case for the Gung Ho Hacker:
Hacking into the BIA Database with your handcomp and a comm:

One, because you're using a handcomp your program aint gonna do squat, but 
you could try to use your experience and luck to foil the machine.  The 
BIA's system is a friggin huge LV 7 machine with RED Security Levels and 
NASTY ICE programs.  You logon, you got a level 2 it has an efective level 
of 11.  Total -9, it would take FOREVER to hack this system, but they will 
nab you in 10secs.  If you wanna give it a try, roll 12d under computer, and 
you better have at least a 12 total skill! I have yet to see someone who can 
roll all ones with 12 dice!  The average schmoe will have maybe a 9 (7 Edu + 
2 Computer).  If you fail with this, Sie sind Kaput!

This 2max for comm hacking works both ways, lets say a BIA agent wants to 
intercept a comm-net message on some civilian with a amber encryption 
package.  Comms have a rate of  0, +2 for encryption.  The BIA agent has a 
Hand Computer with a dedicated program, Level 3. but the bandwith reduces 
him to only 2.  This wiseguy can intercept and evesdrop on your comm 
messages in 10 seconds if successful. Pickled FNORDS anyone?  If he wanted 
realtime voice and video of your conversation, he would need to roll an 
Imposible(5d).

Thats some basic rules for computers and hacking.
Flame retardant suit and Hydroshooter-1000 active.

Commander X

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1319
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, May 14 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1320



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

On culture shock and technological change
Re: Hackers
Re: IG Pricing Policy
Black Holes
RE: First Survey error's?
Over Jump 6
Re: Jump 6 Max
Re: Ship economics -- fuel comsumption
FS/M0 reprint
Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth
Reformation: Seek the Spirit, not the Law!
Marathon II
Re: The collapse of the Zhunastu Corp
Re: The collapse of the Zhunastu Corp
FTL: What does Traveller require?
First Survey 'Errata' and IG Pricing Policy

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:15:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: On culture shock and technological change

Douglas made some excellent points about how much things have changed just
in this century; I have some musings to share which extend and elaborate
his points.

First off, culture/tech shock, while disruptive in the extreme, is not (in
general) as utterly intolerable as some TML authors make it out to be.
Take an ancient Egyptian and drop him into downtown LA today.  True
enough, for the first day or two he'll have no mental model for what he's
seeing other than (perhaps) that he's entered the realm of the gods.  And
there's a fair chance that during the first 24 hours he'll get himself
killed -- by traffic, by doing something the police interpret as
aggressive/crazy, by stepping on the Metro's third rail, or whatever.

However, give him a few days -- and the chance to find a modern guide and
guardian -- and he'll being to understand that he's among people using
technology/magic he does not understand -- but for *purposes* he
understands completely.  People today (like people 5,000 years ago) eat,
sleep, fuck, talk with one another, worship, fight...there are no new
motivations, just different ways of expressing them.  A car will be pure
magic, as will the grocery store...but the idea of going to a market to
get food will be instantly comprehensible.  Within a week, our Egyptian
will be getting comfortable with the routine magic in our society, and
learning how to use it to meet his own needs.

This has already been tested on Earth, many times.  Native Americans
travelled to Europe as curiosities during the 17th and 18th centuries, and
didn't die of culture shock despite the 3ish TL and massive cultural
differences between the two societies.  Those inhabitants of the Valley of
Mexico not killed by Spaniards or smallpox were participating fully in a
Spanish culture within 30 years after the conquest, many much earlier than
that.  Never underestimate the power of human adaptability.

As for extrapolating technological change, I read an excellent essay on
this topic a while back -- wish I could remember the author or title.  It
suggested that projections of technological change tend to be linear,
while actual change is exponential.  As a result, short-term projections
tend to overestimate technological progress -- leading to the well known
premature hype phenomenon -- while long-term projections *seriously*
underestimate progress.  Where the cross-over point occurs is an
intriguing question; in the computer industry (which I know best), it's
quite a short interval, perhaps 3-5 years.  In other fields, I'd guess
it's two or three decades.

Anyway, just my ramblings.  Comments, flames, and near-c rocks welcome.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:14:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Re: Hackers

Oops, I didn't give the DM's for the security levels.

Green       0
Amber     +2
Red        +4

The Bank computer example was LV3 with Amber(+2) Security  Total LV5
The BIA computer was LV7 with Red(+4) Security Total LV11

This should clarify things a bit better, sorry :)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:50:27 +0100
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: Re: IG Pricing Policy

At 16:24 14/05/97 MET, Volker A. Greimann wrote:
>Zhodani agents report that Joseph E. Walsh wrote:
>
>-> As for First Survey, the data in that volume has, as Andy Lilly
>-> pointed out, been declared correct by IG.  Stu and I just wrote 32
>I don't believe it!!!!!  First they mess up, and now they declare it 
>official? I feel not just a bit angry now! If i was Cleon and ordered 
>my Scouts to make a detailed summary of all worlds, i would throw 
>their reports back into their faces if they came back with only 

	Sounds like a particularly bad reaction roll that would be more likely to
result in them having their heads chopped off.

>approximations! Law Level is important for Travelklers, one of the 
>most important info they need, and the Scout service only gives 
>aproximations? I would fire them all and hire new guns if i were 
>Cleon!
>Plus the fact that the text of M:0 still doesn't match the data this 
>way and Vland still has too few inhabitants and......
>
	Sorry for repeating the following, I've only been back here a few days,
but I note that the Core sector in M:0 also has law and tech level the same
value.

	If every planet has law = tech, then obviously you can't have people - for
example - running around with firearms in a higher tech society. Somewhere
like America then couldn't possibly exist in the realms of IG's universe.

	See ya...


Bruce E J Lewis - mailto:bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk
Telephone - 0956-506527

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 97 14:48:40 -0400
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: Black Holes

>I don't have any precise information but I remeber that Cygnus X-1 is a
>huge source of X and Gamma rays. Further more there are great gravitic
>disturbance in the orbit or nearby bodies which indicate that Cygnus X1 is
>very massive and dense (seems to be more than neutron stars)

Well the X in Cygnus X-1 stands for X-rays, so you got that right. 
Cygnus X-1 is a binary system, of a black hole and a normal star. About
15 years ago Gies & Bolton at the Univ of Toronto measured radial
velocity variations (watching spectral lines in the star, get doppler
shifted, as the star orbited the black hole) in the normal star, and
were able to determine that the other object had to be a black hole,
because it was too massive to be a neutron star. Doug Gies is one of
the professors here at Georgia State.   

The object is definetly not a neutron star, so it is either a black
hole, or something new, which we have no idea about.  Most astronomers
go with the simple explanation that it is a black hole.

Lewis Roberts
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Q:What did the baby porcupine say when it backed into a cactus?
A:Is that you Mommy?     

lewis@chara.gsu.edu
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:24:49 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: RE: First Survey error's?

>Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 16:09:15 -0700
>From: "Rob Gillingham" <Farpoint@netcom.ca>

>well this is the first i've heard of bugs in FS can someone explain
>what they were.. so i can TRY and fix... things before my game
>get's too messed up!

Critical data errors:
1.  It does not match the descriptions in M0 very well - known enemies have
a thousandth the population, and lower tech.

2.  Every world has the law level and the government type equal.

Possible data errors, or at least things that need addressing:

1.  Vland has far too few people to be an industrial power that matters.
In general, populations are small enough that I would be very concerned
about the ability of many of these world to maintain an industrial base.

2.  Sylea has 30 billion people, and Shudusham has 70 billion.  This is
perfectly acceptable, but I got the strong feeling that it would be
Shudusham, not Sylea that was running the SyFed, were this the case.  Did
they really mean to have Sylea have an order of magnitude more population
than most of the rest of the SyFed combined?

3.  Worlds that would have to be stopped at en route to Shudusham or Vland
do not have full data.  Shudusham has been a member since -112.

There are others, but these are the ones that prompted me to ask IG for a
solution.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:23:08 +0200
From: Per Bernhardsson <bard@ludd.luth.se>
Subject: Over Jump 6

K.C. Komosky wrote:
> 
>         Yes, jump 6 is the currently achievable maximum. But Traveller has never
> detailed tech levels past 17, so who knows what jump level the Ancients
> were capable of?

Actually it is detailed in the MT Referees Companion page 29 & 34. It is
impossible to go beyond jump 6 with our primitive jump technology, but
at TL 21 that barrier is breached with the appearance of starship-sized
matter transport portals. (Don't ask me how they work though)

 / Per

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:20:19 +0200
From: Per Bernhardsson <bard@ludd.luth.se>
Subject: Re: Jump 6 Max

K.C. Komosky wrote:
> 
>         Yes, jump 6 is the currently achievable maximum. But Traveller has never
> detailed tech levels past 17, so who knows what jump level the Ancients
> were capable of?

Actually it is detailed in the MT Referees Companion page 29 & 34. It is
impossible to go beyond jump 6 with our primitive jump technology, but
at TL 21 that barrier is breached with the appearance of starship-sized
matter transport portals. (Don't ask me how they work though)

 / Per

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:53:00 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Ship economics -- fuel comsumption

Kenneth Bearden writes:
>Jump govenors are mentioned in the SOM, but no mention is made that 
>these help regulate fuel use.

Eh? That's precisely what they're used for. A jump-2 ship dosen't need a
jump governor to make a 1-parsec jump. But if it dosen't have one it pays
for a full jump-2. Otherwise, what do you think they do?
 
>Where did you get the formula for fuel use on a ship that jumps lower 
>than it's jump number (i.e. a jump-2 ship that only jumps one 
>parsec)?

Call me crazy, but I would say whatever a similar-sized jump-1 ship pays
for a one parsec jump. (With Megatraveller and TNE a case could be made
for paying N/M where N is the mumber jumped and M is the fuel used for a
maximum sized jump for the vessel in question, but I won't defend that
vigorously).
 


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:49:47 +0000 (GMT)
From: Ron Dawson <rdawson@cgc.ns.ca>
Subject: FS/M0 reprint

On Wed, 14 May 1997, "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
wrote:

> In this instance, IG looked at the balance sheet and saw that they could 
> not afford to print new galleys of Milieu 0 and First Survey at this 
> point.  Yet, they wanted to decrease the cost to new customers for the M0 
> setting materials.  So, they are combining the two volumes into one, 
> hardbound volume (which costs considerably less than the two, separate 
> softbound volumes), and adding 32 pages of material that should have been 
> in M0/FS to begin with.  Finally, they came up with a plausible, workable 
> explanation for the LL=Gov problem in FS.  They asked Stu and I to 
> implement that solution, design the tables, and design the rest of the 32 
> pages of additional material.

Will the 32 pages of material that should have been in M0/FS be available
somehow to those folks out there who have already purchased M0/FS?  If
they _should_ have been there, will they be available on the IG website as
a form of errata?  I hope so...

- - Ron

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:04:57 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Michael Solomani Mifsud wrote:

> On Tue, 13 May 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> There are limits though.  Making stuff up that completely violates our
> current understanding of the universe belongs in D&D,  sci-fi should be
> *atleast* bound by the Laws we have already discovered.

But we don't really know what really violates our universe because we 
don't have one universial tehory that covers everything. Rules and laws
of the universe evolve, just look at the Newtonian laws. Now we have
Einstein revisions of these laws. And If you take a deep look at
quantum mechanics and relativistic theories, you'll find that these
two collide on some rather important issues. 

> All I am saying is that the jump between a caveman and a modern man, I
> *believe* would be much greater than modern man to thousand years in the
> future.  Where a cave man would find electricity inconceivable, a modern
> man would not find Vacuum Energy inconceivable (depending on his
> education of course)
> 
> The reason? Our general everday understanding of the Universe has
> increased a thousand fold when compared to primitive mans understanding.

But still there is possibly a thousandfold left to uncover. But still
I agree that there is a difference between the caveman/Egyptian jump
and the modern man, mainly our disbelife in magic. We are on the other
end of the stick. If someone comes ant tells us that he has found 
something that he claims is founded in sound science we would probably
beleave him, because there is so much of the field of science that we
have no way of really checking if it is through.

> 
> > So who's to say that next year some bright grad student won't crack the
> > secret of anti-grav or cheap fusion?  If they do, our children and
> [snip]
> 
> They wont be discovered *if* they violate the rules of the universe.  So
> either the rules are wrong, or the discovery is impossible - I would like
> to think the rules are right, or very close to right at this point in
> time.

But that is it. Maybe our laws are wrong. They might explain what we 
have seen today, but they can still be wrong. For example take the 
Earth. A thousand years ago the world was explained as flat, which
was a fair approximation for what they could see. A hundred years 
ago we thought the world was round, which at that time also explained
what we could see. Today we say that the world is ellipticly shaped,
because satellites has told os that it is. Tomorrow we might discover
that this notion has evolved yet another step. 
> 
> > Because jump drive works.  It is the only known method IN THE TRAVELLER
> > UNIVERSE to travel FTL.  Try GURPS.. Space and Vehicles 2nd Ed have a
> > number of different ways to get around.
> 
> So?  If we discover that the method Traveller uses is wrong, completely
> foundless, but an alternative will *probably* work given the right
> technology level, would you still stick with the Traveller Jump Drives?
> 
> That is my point.

Yes I would. Because by my notions and understanding of the universe
I don't see why Jump Drives can not work. Of course there is more
plausible explanations, but the Jump Drive still works.

> 
> I was not talking about culture, not at all - I was comparing
> technological differences, in which case Mr1930 would be more comfortable
> in SF 1997 then Mr 1000BC Egyptian.  The context was "technology" and
> "technological advancement".

But technology is just cultural. At least in my view.
> 
> No I wouldnt be *shocked* I wouldnt be so stunned by the revelation that
> humans can now transplant minds to new bodys that I would consider it the
> realm of the gods.   Surprised of course, but no so surprised I could not
> cope with it.

How do you know. Now your making the mistake you claimed the
writer of the post you answered made. How do you know how you
would react. You might have a notion, but you really don't know.
Only ending up in that situation would reveal your reaction.
> 
> c'ya hate to be ya,
> 
> michl
> 
> electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/
> 

Tommy Grav                  tommy.grav@astro.uio.no    
Institute of Astrophysics   http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/
University in Oslo          "If you value your lives, be somwhere 
Norway                       else!" - Ambassador Delenn B5 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 97 15:14:01 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Reformation: Seek the Spirit, not the Law!

On 05/13/97 at 01:10 AM,  "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca> said:

> The heathen Eris Reddoch wrote:

Heathen?  Are you sure you want to go that route.  ;-> It implies
that I stand outside orthodoxy to an established dogma.

> 	hmm, maybe I came across wrong. I certainly don't believe in an
> orthodoxy  text before you can purchase Emperor's Arsenal, for example.

No, but you *do* believe in an orthodoxy test before I, or anyone
else, can *write* about Traveller?  Surely not!

> If you want to  bastardize the rules, by all means go ahead. More power
> to ya.

Bastardize, means to make or become illegitimate, and implies
corruption, misuse and inferiority.  Heathen and Bastard are
certainly derogatory terms..do you really mean to say that?

> I guess what I was arguing for, though, was for self-consistency in 
> published Traveller material. While you Eris should feel free to ignore
> any  part of the canon that gets in your way, IMPERIUM GAMES SHOULD NOT!

That ship has long since sailed, boys.  For anything beyond broad
parameters that allow for certain game effects it's too late to
reconcile everything into a dogma.  Not that I would favor that
anyway.

> 	IG and MM should, to the best of their ability, follow the existing
> canon  as closely as possible when designing new supplements and books.
> And even  being the heretic that you are, I think you can agree with
> that.

Nope, because we don't seem to agree on what "canon" is.  OTOH, it's
*possible* you and I aren't as far apart as you might think.  If you
stopped writing "canon" and started writing "general guidelines"
that would help a lot.  If you were referring to the "spirit of
Traveller" not the "laws of Traveller", that would go the rest of
the way.

I can, pretty well, define the *conditions* that make a Traveller
universe, Traveller.  I refuse to support the idea that there is
"one true set" of events or technologies that describe those
conditions.  I support broad guidelines that describe a Traveller
universe, not the canonization of implementation details.

> 	But there should be "one official, published way" for Traveller. It 
> doesn't have the same ring as "the one true way", but when you start
> having  three or four different PUBLISHED ways the game is heading down
> the wrong  track.

So, you want to invalidate which of the published versions?  What
details do you toss?  How do you decide?  What do *you* want to
throw into outer darkness?  Where do any of *us* get the authority
to do that, anyway?

Is a wonderfully wacky idea like "The Templars" acceptable for
publication in the Journal?  Yes..but it's never been mentioned in
your canon before?  No..but does your canon describe the totality of
all Traveller existence?

How about "Sparklers", are they in your orthodox canon because DGP
published them, or *out* because DGP published them.  If they are
out how do you justify expunging them?  Oh, because GDW later
rejected them?  But do you reject all of MT, and SOM and WBH too?
GDW came out with different rules in TNE that invalidated MT, didn't
they?  So is all of CT and MT expunged?

Well, do you reject "The Virus" or "The Empress Wave", and all the
rules of TNE that conflict with T4?  Will you, if IG rejects them?
I know some people would..heck, some people do already!  ;-> I also
know some people that reject T4 and stick to TNE, and some that
reject T4 & TNE and stick to MT, and....you get the idea.

> >So KC, I propose, you play your way, I'll play it mine, and everyone
> else >can do the same.  You can be as orthodox as you like, I can be as 
> heretical as I like, and everyone else can decide for themselves. Deal?

> 	Absolutely. I never wanted to come across as demanding the game be
> played  a certain way. In other games, I have frequently begged, borrowed
> and  stolen different supplements from different games. When done right,
> it is  infinitely better than religiously following the published
> material.

> 	But what's good for the goose is not good for the gander. IG does not
> have  that same liberty to freely deviate from published material.

No, K.C...what's good for the goose *is* good for the gander!  ;->

In regards Traveller, Marc Miller is IG, and, as for as I know, that
gander holds the trademark and copyrights.  If Marc changes the
details of any of the background or technology does that change the
goose's canon, does it change *your* canon?  Marc could reject EVERY
BIT of past background detail, not that I think he will, but he
could, you know.  What would you do then?

What I believe, in regards to Traveller, doesn't depend on
background or technology details, it doesn't depend on a version of
rules, or background, or technologies.  I believe in the "spirit of
the game."  Oh, and yes I certainly have to believe *something* to
be a heretic, if I believed nothing I'd be an atheist, and play
M:TG.  ;->

I believe in the "spirit of Traveller."  I believe that when you
define that spirit, that there is an umbrella under which we can all
play, and call our games Traveller.  I believe that that this
umbrella can spread *very* wide to cover many things Traveller-isk,
and still be true to the spirit of Traveller.  I believe the ribs of
this umbrella are *any* of the sets of conditions that produce the
set of *effects* that describe the spirit of the game.

I'll happily help describe the "spirit of Traveller", to help
clarify the set of effects this spirit requires, and discuss the
sets of conditions that can produce those effects.  I won't agree to
the primacy of any specific implementation.

Ok, I've had my say, and won't argue about it.  If we still
disagree, then we disagree, amen!


Eris,
    still a heretic

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 97 16:58:00 PDT
From: Glenn Myers <gem188@ansyspo.ansys.com>
Subject: Marathon II

Hello all,

Some random bits...

After someone mentioned using Marathon to view starship interiors,  I 
noticed that it was available at COMP-USA for Windows 95 for only $9.95. 
This may be of interest to all the PC users on the TML.

BTW, does Windows 95 always mean Windows NT compatible? I recently got 
Marathon II Powerbook and I'd like to putit on my PC running NT.

Thanks,

Glenn

______________________________________________________
Glenn E. Myers
ANSYS Inc.                Email: glenn.myers@ansys.com
275 Technology Drive      Phone: (412) 514-2913
Canonsburg, PA 15317      Fax:   (412) 514-3118
______________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:20:53 -0400
From: Wesley Esser <wesley@lynx.dac.neu.edu>
Subject: Re: The collapse of the Zhunastu Corp

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
> 1100 Traveller background has no mention of Zhunastu Industries, Cleon's
> tame family Megacorp. Now, I've got two suggestions as to how it
> disappeared.
> 
> 1) Following the assassination of Cleon IV and the following Civil War the
> corporation collapsed and was absorbed by its rivals.
> 
> or
> 
> 2) The Imperial Family broke up ZI and sold it to the various Megacorps in
> return for shareholdings within them. After all, they had enough to worry
> about running the Imperium.
> 
> Any comments/counter proposal's welcomed.
> 
> Dom
Didn't Zhunastu Industries get absorbed/transmogrified somehow into
Tukera Lines?  Or am I remembering something completely different?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 21:26:23 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: The collapse of the Zhunastu Corp

At 08:03 PM 5/12/97 +0000, you wrote:
><snip>
>or
>
>2) The Imperial Family broke up ZI and sold it to the various Megacorps in
>return for shareholdings within them. After all, they had enough to worry
>about running the Imperium.
>
>
>Any comments/counter proposal's welcomed.
>
>Dom
>
>--------------- Dom Mooney (dom@cybergoths.u-net.com)---------------
>"The fall of Empire, Gentlemen, is a massive thing, however, and not easily
>fought. It is dictated by a rising bureaucracy, a receding initiative, a
>freezing of caste, a damming of curiousity - a hundred other factors."
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Hari Seldon - Azimov's "Foundation"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>

I like #2; process may have already been started long before the asassisnation.

Garry

 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 97 16:16:02 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: FTL: What does Traveller require?

> a common framework from which we can all use to communicate 
> with.

I don't object ot a common framework, but don't be *too* specific. What I
think you really want are the effects of the various
technologies on what we call "Traveller."

>I'll start the ball rolling with jump drives.

I'd rather just say FTL transportation.

>1. The maximum is jump six.

General Condition:  Limited range that changes from tech level to tech
level.

Travel is limited to a relatively small number of parsec
per week.  Low Tech FTL can travel about 1ps/week, most
civilizations we play in can't exceed 3ps/week, and the highest we can
imagine is 6ps/week.

What game playing effects are we creating with this range
limitation?


>2. Jump takes one week

>3. While in jump, any interaction with other ships in jump, or with >
normal space is completely immpossible.

General Condition:  All ships travelling FTL will be totally
isolated for *about* one week.

What gaming effects are we creating by having an approximately uniform time
for each application of FTL travel?


What game playing effects are we creating by isolating ships in FTL?


This is the way I would express the questions.  How we implement a solution
is *much* less important than that we just meet the
conditions in ways that allow the game effects to work.


We could implement FTL with Jump Drives or with various Wormhole or Gate
Drives and meet all the conditions.  We could cover most of them with some
versions of Warp or Stutterwarp/jump drives too.

Just my way of looking at things.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:44:01 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: First Survey 'Errata' and IG Pricing Policy

>Joe Walsh wrote:
>>On Wed, 14 May 1997, Volker A. Greimann wrote:
>> I truly believe they are just too lazy to admit their mistakesd and 
>> work the data over again...
>Then again, it could always be an economic consideration.

Bet on the money.  But then, I work for economists.

From the sound of things, IG is committed to the FS data as it is.  This is
not what I would like, but I can always change the numbers I do not like in
my own game.  Taking a firm stand is better than being wishy washy, even
when I would prefer you to have made a different firm stand.

I cannot use the FS data as printed, and so I really, really think you
should release the data in a machine readable form, if only to those who
have already given you money for it in the form of buying FS.  IG clearly
has an interest in protecting future income potential from that data, but
you must balance that with customer dismay.  Joe, I sympathize with the
dilemma of you and Stu, given what was done before you had a chance to
influence it, but I hope that you sympathize with my own perception of the
data as flawed.  Your fix is an interesting one, but I already tried it on
my players, and got an unprintable reaction.  The response was very
impolite, and stopped the game dead.  It also produced a call to go back to
MT, which I do not want to do - I find the whole M0 era far more interesting.

The way it is, I _will_ have to scavenge the data and come up with law
levels.  My players demand it, and I am willing to do so.  I cannot do that
easily, though, if I have to also scan in the data and make corrections.
Further, I am not happy with the maps in FS, as I usually use subsector
maps, and can generate those from sector maps easily.  I would at least
like to start with the data you have made canon.

If you want me to mail you the front cover or title page from FS in
exchange for the underlying data, that would be quite fair, and I am
perfectly willing to sign things saying I will not propagate the data.  I
do enough beta testing, and am under enough NDAs that this is hardly a new
situation, or a hardship for me.  Further, this is the form in which I
would have liked to order FS originally anyway.  Heck, I even tried to
order the Merchant Prince data on disk years ago from GDW.

>> So more info, that the owners of the first edition will never have if 
>> they are not willing to buy the otherwise same book again! 
>Okay, that's a reasonable argument.  But another reasonable argument 
>would be, should a company never improve its products simply because 
>earlier versions have been purchased?...

A reasonable argument, certainly, but by bringing in another industry, you
bring up the difference between First Survey and the data therein.  The
data in First Survey is much like a computer program, in that duplication
costs are low, while the physical book is much like any other book in that
duplication costs are very high.  The FS data, to me, needs modification,
and since IG has said the modification is not economically feasible on
their part, it falls on me to do it for my game.  I would like a small
amount of help from you to let me avoid a large amount of needless work on
my part.

A side note: Steve Jackson games has been very good about giving out errata
for their games since day one, and machine versions of their tables.  I
still have the ten pages or so of errata that SJG sent me on GURPS 3
printing 1, and I have several character generation data tables that I used
in a character generator.  They asked me to sign an NDA, and to make sure
that their data retained copyright in all incarnations on my computer,
which I complied with.

I still do not have access to the missing deck plan from M0.  M0 came out
months ago, and the missing deck plan was known before it shipped.  Given
the competition in the gaming industry, it behooves you to push errata and
fixes.

Clearly, y'all do listen, as the Internet pre-order plan was a good move,
and I signed up for it.  EA, as the first product done since the new
management had entire control of the process, was a well designed creation.
 I retain hope that the upcoming products will also be good, but I know
already that I will need to modify the UWP data, given the decision you
made.  I quite understand the constraints, as had you made the entire book
non-canon, you would have had a reasonable chance of failing
merchantability and a raft of irate customers.

We both agree that a recall would cost far too much.  I have hopefully
convinced you that one possible way to divert the complaints would be to
let those of us who are trying to work with the FS data have access to it
in an easy to manipulate form.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1320
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, May 14 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1321



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: May THUDDD entry; Nuphraitelle
Re: T4 House rules for hackers
Re: IG Pricing Policy
RE: Open fire - All Canons
Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth
Re: IG Pricing Policy
Re: IG Pricing Policy
Re: IG Pricing Policy
Re: Ancients and jump-space
Re: IG Pricing Policy
Total BS
Re: IG Pricing Policy
Re: Captain, we'er surrounded, and they're all armed with c
Re: Corps
Re: Canon, no canon
Re: IG Pricing Policy
Re: computer game query (was computer games)
Re: FS/M0 reprint
Re: IG Pricing Policy

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:58:27 -0700
From: Jeff Cornish <jcornish@appiantech.com>
Subject: RE: May THUDDD entry; Nuphraitelle

- -----Original Message-----
From:	Craig Berry [SMTP:cberry@cinenet.net]
Sent:	Monday, May 12, 1997 11:28 AM
To:	Jeff Cornish
Subject:	Re: May THUDDD entry; Nuphraitelle


OK, got it!  Nice work...

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/
       "Every man and every woman is a star."


Not so nice-it's too big.  I've corrected it.  Starwerx doesn't have a very 
large marketing department: someone blundered, released the TE22's 
specsheet with the Newphie name.  Here's the correct design.

Nuphraitelle class exploratory merchant ( SSDS/)
Architect:  Jeff Cornish (jeffreyc@sprynet.com)
Tons: 3000td (SL Wedge)	Vol: 42,000 m3			Cost: 1,162MCr  (1,046MCr)
Crew: 22/31 (/HiAuto)		Pass. High/Medium: 2/10	Pass. Low: 10  ( 4 Emerg. )
Cargo: 1,300 std		Controls: Survey Std(/Bridge)	TL 12
( 700 std w/ full collapsible tanks )
9 Size Rating				        2 	Jump Drive (300 std/pc fuel )	
        1	Maneuver ( Thruster, 750 Mw )	
2xLaser Emitters (+4) 1 /3-2-2-0		        1	Power Plant Rating (3x500Mw, 
1x25Mw)
     616 	Fuel ( /Scoop:1.0 /Refine:4.1)
   1216 	Fuel /w full collapsible tanks
        4 	Sandcaster ( 30 cans )
        1	Nuclear Damper ( 30Mw )
        3	Meson Screen (10Mw)
        0 	Black Globe
       A10 P4 J0	 Sensors
       20	Armor, 23 Structure	

1 x Engineering Shop ( 6 std )			1 x Vehicle Shop ( 10 std )
1 x Laboratory ( 8 std )				1 x Sick Bay ( 8 std )

1 x Minimal Hangar ( 20 std craft )	2	 x Spacious Hangers ( 50 std craft )

Crew Details: 3 cmd, 2 mvr, 3 elc, 4 gun, 1 scr, 5 eng, 5 crf,  2 trp, 1 
sci, 2 stw, 1 brk, 2 med

NOTE:  I don't know how legal the "100 ton" shuttle bay is, and I haven't 
been able to work in the extra cost of the collapsible tankage <it's only 
about 1 MCr or so>, but here is my design, sans shuttle.

Starwerx Orbital Foundry is proud to present its first entry in the latest 
ISBA competition, the Nuphraitelle.  A based on a medium-heavy streamlined 
wedge hull, the Nuphraitelle is outfitted with a 2 parsec jump-drive and 
fuel for 4 parsec's travel--2 in standard tankage and 2 in a pair of 
collapsible fuel bladders stowed in the middle cargo bay.

<An interesting variant here would be a J-2x3 ship-add another pair of 
collapsible tanks, 300 dt fuel each, of course, in the cargo bay.  It'd 
reduce the available cargo space by 32 dt, and there would only be ~100 std 
of cargo when the ship was fully tanked, but you'd get another 2 parsecs 
out of the ship without refueling.>

The philosophy with the Nuphraitelle is Opportunity, Capability, and 
Survival.

The Nuphraitelle's main sensor array, a Cassini Mk72 Survey package, is the 
standard among medium-sized Imperial Interstellar Scout Service vessels and 
gives the capability to survey uncharted or under-charted star systems. 
 The onboard laboratory lets the crew support a geophysical, xenobiological 
or astrophysical specialist to provide detailed analysis of the sensor 
data.

<I chose the Survey sensor package because it _wasn't_ military, something 
I wanted to avoid was the possibility of giving anyone who managed to 
capture this ship an Imperial Naval class jammer.   The survey package has 
equal range, is nearly half the cost and price.  The only losing points are 
the larger volume and power requirements.  Also, if the mission requires 
more Scientists, they should get the High Passage cabins>

Nearly half of the Nuphraitelle's volume is taken up by the three main 
cargo bays, each with a capacity of over 6000 cubic meters of storage, 
letting the Nuphraitelle haul impressive amounts of goods from the worlds 
it visits.

Quarters for the crew, 10 middle passengers and 2 high passengers are 
standard, as are 10 low berths, suitable for passengers or livestock.  The 
Captain, of course, receives his own large stateroom.

The standard crew's complement, beyond the bridge crew and officers, 
includes 5 pilots/flight crew for the small craft, 2 ship's troops for 
defense and security, a Science Officer, and a Broker/trader specialist to 
aid the crew in matters of speculative trading.  2 Medical specialists and 
2 Stewards round out the complement.

<If more troops are required, they get the Middle Passage cabins.  The 
Broker is going to be the ship's 'Scout' who will know all relevant 
information on culture and commerce at the places the ship will land.  I 
suppose this could be done by the Captain and 1st Officer if the ship were 
smaller>

Although the Nuphraitelle's thrusters are only capable of 1-gee 
acceleration, the structure of the ship has been designed to withstand 
twice that stress.  1-gee of contragravity and streamlining make 
atmospheric interface and flight safe on any world, terrestrial or 
gas-giant.  The Nuphraitelle's redundant wilderness fueling capability can 
scoop and purify a jump's worth of fuel in less than 8 hours.

<The combined 2-gee acceleration from the thrusters and contragrav should 
get this whale... er, a Newfy off most planets.  The if one of the 
'redundant' fuel purifiers fails it takes 12.3 hours to process the scooped 
fuel.>

Spacious hangers for two 50 ton shuttles have been provided, as well as 
more modest facilities for a 20 ton ship's boat.  The adjoining shuttle 
bays, with minor modifications, are capable being connected and berthing a 
100 ton J-2 scout.  The extra mission flexibility provided to the ship's 
crew in transporting cargo, passengers or handling emergency situations 
should prove invaluable.

<Right now I'm working on the deckplans for the Nephraitelle and I am 
leaning towards an 'under-and-over' 50 std bay arrangement.  The deckplates 
between deck 3 and 4 would be removed and the bays connected that way. 
 Comments anyone?>

The Nuphraitelle is the first of Starwerx line of spacecraft and starships 
to feature "Mk3 systems automation," reducing the workload on the crew, but 
as with all Starwerx starships, redundant life-support and control systems 
are standard.  A Starwerx Mk8 'Rambler' class self defense package is 
included: 2 triple laser cannon, 2 sandcaster batteries, nuclear damper and 
meson screen.

<I'm going to run some scenarios; a Newfy vs. some small, laser-armed 
vessels (pirates?  Fighters? Laser defensats?) and see how it performs. 
 I'm pretty sure the only thing that will save her is her sandcasters.  I 
admit that the laser batts are a little weak, but this ship should be able 
to detect her foe and stay out of harms way before she should have to use 
them.  (BTW, if her batteries are combined, they're a respectable (+4) 
1/5-3-3-0 at a ROF of 100)>

As the Nuphraitelle's mission profile includes long duration missions away 
from Class A and B starports, a machine shop, engineering shop and sickbay 
are present (including an emergency low berth for critically injured crew 
or passengers) .  If it should become necessary the shuttles and small 
craft should be capable of evacuating the entire ship's complement.

<I hope this last point is never needed <evil grin>.  It would be horrible 
to have to abandon ship <evil grin> over some lost world with a thousand 
tons of cargo that you couldn't take with you <evil grin>.>

As for the crewing, the jump drive, the thrusters/contragrav and the 
reactors take 5 engineers each (a senior/junior arrangement on each system 
with one chief pulling double duty?).  The Survey sensor suite requires 3 
electronics technicians.  The ship's compliment has 8 in 
engineering/technical, 5 in gunnery/defense, 2 flight officers, and 3 in 
command.  Quarters for 5 small craft pilots and flight crew are included, 
but more may be needed depending on the types of shuttles/ship's boats you 
use.


Comments and useful criticism to jeffreyc@sprynet.com
Flames and <this ship sucks> to /dev/nul

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:24:35 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: T4 House rules for hackers

> 
> Based on an old TML post I did back in '95...
> 
> Hacking House Rules for T4


This was a good post, Bill.  I need this sort of thing for my 
heavlily political/backstabbin'/covert kinda game that I'm running.

Thanks,

Kenneth. 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:24:33 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: IG Pricing Policy

.  Finally, they came up with a plausible, workable 
> explanation for the LL=Gov problem in FS.  They asked Stu and I to 
> implement that solution, design the tables, and design the rest of the 32 
> pages of additional material.

Joe,

Are you saying that the LL=Gov problem will not be corrected in the 
hard bound version of M0/FS?

Say it ain't so, Joe, say it ain't so.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:24:37 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: RE: Open fire - All Canons

> >What doesn't KBv2.0 fix?
> 
> Sorry, poorly worded..  my players just didn't like handfuls of dice.  we
> switched to CORPS due to the ease of the task system.

Gotcha.  I went with multiple D6es because the original T4 system 
uses multiple D6es--I wanted KBv2.0 to be as close to the original 
system as possible and still fix the problems.

So, that's why KBv2.0 has so many dice.  I was trying to fix t4--not 
create an entirely new system.

Thanks for the feed back.  It lets me know that you would have 
probably gone with CORE even if there was no KBv2.0 and you were 
using official T4 rules.

Best,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:24:38 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth

> No, that's Clarke's Law.


Clarke's Law?  Clark's Law?

That was a pretty damn good Babylon 5 novel--actually it has been the 
only one I've read that I'd recommend.  :)

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:24:34 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: IG Pricing Policy

> At 16:24 14/05/97 MET, Volker A. Greimann wrote:
> >Zhodani agents report that Joseph E. Walsh wrote:
> >
> >-> As for First Survey, the data in that volume has, as Andy Lilly
> >-> pointed out, been declared correct by IG.  Stu and I just wrote 32
> >I don't believe it!!!!!  First they mess up, and now they declare it 
> >official? I feel not just a bit angry now! If i was Cleon and ordered 
> >my Scouts to make a detailed summary of all worlds, i would throw 
> >their reports back into their faces if they came back with only 
> 
> 	Sounds like a particularly bad reaction roll that would be more likely to
> result in them having their heads chopped off.


ROFLOL!!!!

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:24:36 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: IG Pricing Policy

> PS. I ended up getting _The Babylon Project_ instead. I just like the show too damn much. EA can wait a little while longer...

I almost did the same thing.  I love the hell out of B5 too.  But, 
the logical side of my brain won out over the emotional side of my 
heart, and I went ahead and got the EA instead.

I've got to devote myself to only one game.  I don't have time for 
more.  

But, when B5 gets some more supplements and adventures out, I can't 
say that I haven't thought about switching games.  

I mean, talk about identifying with the game!  All of my players 
watch B5 too.  The show does a lot of work for the GM.

Right now, Traveller's got me, but I guess we'll have to see what 
kind of quality Chameleon puts out compared to IG's future stuff.

I'm sure I'll go with the more interesting game (but I've got so much 
invested already in Traveller.)

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:24:51 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: IG Pricing Policy

> > The damn thing was $2.50 cheaper.  All of the T4 stuff had been
> > marked down.  All of the $22.50 supplements are now $20.00 at that
> > store.
> > 
> > Even the main book was marked down.  
> > 
> > I'm not sure if this was something the store did, or if IG is 
> > scaling back prices or offering dealer rebates or what.
> > 

> No this is a bad thing.  It means that the stuff isn't selling so the 
> store is marking it down to get rid of it.  They will carry less of 
> it in the future.

Yes, I thought about that.  I asked how Traveller was doing, and they 
said that it was doing fair, but they were expecting it to do better.

They said they've got a few die hards that have been playing 
Traveller since the LLB days, and that's pretty much who they sell 
to--with an occasional odd sale here and there.

Now, at another store, the largest one in Houston, they've moved 
Traveller to a prominent position in the gaming section.

It used to be in this buried section where they put all the new games 
(The Babylon Project took Traveller's old spot).  Now, it's moved to 
a verticle rack, and it has taken space away from D&D (one of the 
largest displays in the store--along with the White Wolf stuff, 
Battle Tech, Star Fleet Battles, and Shadow Run).

Actually, the D&D display is two side by side displays full of D&D 
books and modules.  I haven't seen anything else in this spot except 
D&D stuff in years, and here Traveller is, invading the D&D turf.

I thought that was a good sign--but maybe they are just trying to be 
more aggressive in moving it.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:24:39 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Ancients and jump-space

> In my campaign, jump-space is an Ancient artifact in itself.  The reason
> the galaxy wasn't overrun with jump capable aliens long ago is because
> it took a Tl 31 race to construct the jump-space in the first place.
> The Tl-9 jump-drive is only an interface device.

Now, this is some cool TML brainstorming.  I like this.  Maybe I'll 
play around with it.

And, in Traveller Cannon, they don't really know that much about 
Jumpspace.  They just know that they can go through it.  They even 
don't really know how the jump drives work--completely.

It reminds me of this Aeorspace History class I took in college.  I 
graduated from the University of Houston--Clear Lake, which sits 
right down the road from the Johnson Space Center.

Dr. Roger Blistein gave the course, and he was also the chief 
historian for NASA.

What makes me think of jump drives is what he described about the 
Saturn V rocket.  For you non-NASA types, that's the big rocket that 
sent the Apollo missions to the moon.

These things were huge with multiple systems.  Dr. Bilstein said that 
they were so big, that while designing them, the engineers would run 
into problems.  There were so many systems to deal with, that they 
would just start tweaking things until whatever was wrong was fixed.

Sometimes, this would be several tweaks down the road, and when the 
problem was finally fixed, they had tweaked so many systems that they 
really didn't know what fixed the problem.  They were just glad it 
was fixed.

This is hard to believe in the post Challenger climate of today, but 
ever since I heard that, I got a clearer picture of how starship 
engineers work on their jumpdrives.

And, I can see that much of what the Imperium knows about jumpspace 
is theory only.

Kenneth.


> 
> I have further speculated, but not actually played, that jump-space
> only works around known-space and the Zhodani core corridor.  This
> would allow for Vinge style slow zones.
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:24:50 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: IG Pricing Policy

> On Wed, 14 May 1997, Glenn Hoppe wrote:
> 
> > You know, it occured to me after I went to the movie on the weekend, 
> > that I think nothing of spending money for 2 hours of entertainment. 2=
0 
> > bucks for the movie for 2, popcorn, drinks and gummie bears. And that 
> > was a matin=E9e!
> 
> Good example!

I've never had a problem with the money I put into role playing.  On 
an hour per entertainment value measure, it is the best thing going.

But, the point is, you have to compare the value you get with IG's 
Traveller products to similiar products with other RPG system.

Doing that, Traveller is just expensive--there's no two ways about 
it.

> That's it.  Plus, in the case of IG, when you look at direct substitutes=
 
> (i.e., other RPG's) you find that many are lower-priced.  But, I like to=
 
> think the quality of the current books is worthy of the cost.  (Hey, I'm=
 
> biased<G>.)

I'm not sure I can agree.  I'm a die hard Traveller fan, and I'm 
sticking in there.  I like the new interior art.  I like the quality 
improvements.  But, my point here is that, as a die hard Traveller 
fan, I'm in the minority.  Most of the role players out there won't 
be die hard Traveller fans.

As a matte of fact, I just got an e-mail from one of my players.  I 
told them all to go out and buy CSC and EA, and he did.  Then I get 
this message--

            "Jesus, Ken!  That's 50 bucks for two supplements!"

And that's my point too.  It is 50 bucks for two supplements.

>  In a nutshell, 
> for the first few hundred years (indeed, until close to the real First 
> Survey is done) the IISS has no standardized Law Level for worlds; they 
> just use the Government code to approximate the level of strictness on 
> the world

I'm trying to be a trooper, Joe, but you know that I call them like I 
see them.

When IG does something very good, I am the first to praise them.  
Reference my review on the EA.  When IG does really bad, I don't hold 
back with what I feel for political reasons.  Reference my review on 
FS.

This LL=3DGG stuff is a load of crap.  I'm very disappointed.  This is 
definitely not what I want to see, as a devoted fan whose purchased 
EVERYTHING that IG has produced so far, I'm outraged at learning 
this.  

I don't care if it is a business decision.  It's a bad one.  There 
are costs to doing business, and sometimes you eat something in 
order to make you business better in the future.  It's an investment 
in going concern.

As a small business owner, I know this more than most.  

I don't like it, Joe--not at all, not one damn bit.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:40:58 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Total BS

Grrr.  I'm about to rumble.

I said--

 > The damn thing was $2.50 cheaper.  All of the T4 stuff had been
> > marked down.  All of the $22.50 supplements are now $20.00 at that
> > store.
> > 
> > Even the main book was marked down.  
> > 
> > I'm not sure if this was something the store did, or if IG is 
> > scaling back prices or offering dealer rebates or what.
> > 

And JD replied with a good comment--

> No this is a bad thing.  It means that the stuff isn't selling so the 
> store is marking it down to get rid of it.  They will carry less of 
> it in the future.


And, now I'm saying--


Maybe the reason T4 is not selling in this store (see my other 
post--I talked to the manager) is becasue of reasons like quality 
issues we've seen.

I'm all set to forgive some of the horrendous crap that we've seen 
from IG, and I have hopes and good indications from the new 
management.

But now I hear about this bullshit of keeping the crappy data in FS 
and M0.

You have got to be kidding me.  After all this shitty product we've 
seen for T4, and after still keeping the faith, we are hit with

      "Its a business decision to keep the data in FS/M0"

I suppose it is a business decision to keep the half die and the 
low skill impact in the task system too--especially after they've got 
a second chance to fix the damn thing and a viable alternative that 
fixes every problem with it.

I'm really getting burned up here.  My heart just sinks when I see 
stuff like this.

I want T4 to be the best RPG ever so much.  I've got to tell you.  It 
is damn hard to keep the faith when you see IG doing stuff like this.

This is bullshit. Complete, total, bullshit.

Why the hell do I support a game that keeps treating me this way?

The Babylon Project is looking better and better all the time.

Am I the only person who feels taken advantage of?

Kenneth.

PS  I'm sorry for all the hostility, but I'm getting tired of 
promoting this game to friends and people I meet in the gaming stores 
only to see these types of decisions come out of IG.

I rarely blow my top, but this makes me pissed.  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:12:20 +1000
From: Jason Anderson <midnight@kagi.com>
Subject: Re: IG Pricing Policy

>> I'm not sure if this was something the store did, or if IG is
>> scaling back prices or offering dealer rebates or what.
>>
>No this is a bad thing.  It means that the stuff isn't selling so the
>store is marking it down to get rid of it.  They will carry less of
>it in the future.

No, if you have a look at the IG website you will see that all the prices
for supplements have been lowered to $20. They also keep changing the price
of the new edition hardback which they are producing, although that hasn't
changed for the last few weeks.

Cheers,
Jason

- -------
Beyond Midnight Software                               <midnight@kagi.com>
                                      <http://www.vision.net.au/~midnight>

             If it's not on fire then it's a software problem.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 97 17:09:26 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Captain, we'er surrounded, and they're all armed with c

On 05/13/97 at 10:21 PM,  Edgar Whipple <ewhipple@rma.edu> said:

> Each jump factor requires fuel equal to 10% of hull displacement. Yes?

Depends on the version of Traveller you are using.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 97 17:17:17 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Corps

On 05/13/97 at 09:23 PM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> said:

> Lethal is cutting/penetrating damage (knife wounds, gunshots, etc.) it
> has the potential to kill you, using the eventualy fatal and instant kill
> rolls.  Non'lethal is a punch in the jaw.. very hard to kill somebody,
> but you can knock them cold.

Hum, this reminds me of Lethal vs Subdual damage out of Aftermath! I think
I need to take a look at CORPS.

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 97 17:05:34 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Canon, no canon

On 05/13/97 at 07:55 PM,  Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu> said:

> > So KC, I propose, you play your way, I'll play it mine, and everyone else
> > can do the same.  You can be as orthodox as you like, I can be as heretical
> > as I like, and everyone else can decide for themselves. Deal?

>    Well, you seem to be confusing orthodoxy with canon; they are two
>    different things.  But besides this semantic quibble, I have a
>    problem with what you seem to be saying: "I can work at Trav as hard
>    as I want, and you can work at Trav as hard as I want.  Deal?"

>    No deal!

Rob, I don't appreciate you changing my words.  I meant what I said,
period.  

I've writing what I intend to write about this subject.  I don't think any
reply I could make to the remainder of your post would be constructive.


Eris,
    who remains a heretic 
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:21:13 +1000
From: Jason Anderson <midnight@kagi.com>
Subject: Re: IG Pricing Policy

>As for First Survey, the data in that volume has, as Andy Lilly pointed
>out, been declared correct by IG.

Well, the law=gov I don't really care about, and the explaination given by
IG is plausable (although Vland having next to no population and the data
not matching M0, and.. are all problems that can't be explained away).
However, what gets me is the starport problem - I'm sorry, but I don't
agree that there should be that many A class and B class starports.
Certainly not in M0 anyway.

What I've taken to doing is using the players information, and then
generating the rest of the systems stats myself. Ok, so its not "official",
but at least I can modify them to suit myself. Like having one class A
starport a subsector, if that, and MANY more class X.

Cheers,
Jason

- -------
Beyond Midnight Software                               <midnight@kagi.com>
                                      <http://www.vision.net.au/~midnight>

             If it's not on fire then it's a software problem.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:26:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Matrixs@aol.com
Subject: Re: computer game query (was computer games)

     Ok, I work in Antarctica where the access to commercial software is
somewhat limited (know what I mean?) but I would be very pleased to find a
Traveller cd rom game (er....something to that effect) Is there such an
Animal? Please somebody tell me. Oh, and yes its cold as hell (frozen over)
down there, but that gives us an excuse to play lots O' Traveller.

Bryan C.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:24:17 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: FS/M0 reprint

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Ron Dawson wrote:

> Will the 32 pages of material that should have been in M0/FS be available
> somehow to those folks out there who have already purchased M0/FS?  If
> they _should_ have been there, will they be available on the IG website as
> a form of errata?  I hope so...

<chuckle>  I sometimes forget to watch myself when posting to TML.

Chalk it up to unfortunate phrasing.  It's not like the 32 pages were 
planned for M0 then cut.  But they're 32 very useful pages (i.e., a good 
reason to buy the new book, aside from the fact that it'll be 
hardbound).  All IMHO, of course.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh  |  Game Designer for Marc Miller's Traveller
_________________|  Atari 1200XL and Apple IIGS User and Programmer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:27:05 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: IG Pricing Policy

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Bruce E J Lewis wrote:

> 	Sorry for repeating the following, I've only been back here a few days,
> but I note that the Core sector in M:0 also has law and tech level the same
> value.

Uh, no, the Core sector in M:0 is the exact same data as the "Referee's 
Data" for Core sector in FS.  In both cases, the two digits that are 
equal are Government Type and Law Level, not Law Level and Tech Level.


> 	If every planet has law = tech, then obviously you can't have people - for
> example - running around with firearms in a higher tech society. Somewhere
> like America then couldn't possibly exist in the realms of IG's universe.

What you say is true.  Fortunately, it's predicated on an incorrect 
assumption, so doesn't apply to the discussion at hand...


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh  |  Game Designer for Marc Miller's Traveller
_________________|  Atari 1200XL and Apple IIGS User and Programmer

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1321
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, May 14 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1322



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: ANCIENT Grandfather
Re: Core Expedition dates
Re: Traveller Jumpspace Wormhole Theory
Re: IG Pricing Policy
RE: First Survey error's?
Re: Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth
Re: Major problem with QSDS/FFS
Re: On culture shock and technological change
Re: On culture shock and technological change
Re: Marathon II
Re: IG Pricing Policy
Re: IG Pricing Policy
The Return
Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:55:06 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: ANCIENT Grandfather

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Anders Backman wrote:

> > Read my other post, what I basically said was that the only time
> >Grandfather seemed to interfere with other races was when he needed
> >asisstents for his work.  I can only assume Humans were the only ones that
> >had any potential in this area and/or the other races were not sentinent
> >yet.
> 
> WARNING ANCIENT SPOILERS ALERT
> WARNING ANCIENT SPOILERS ALERT
> WARNING ANCIENT SPOILERS ALERT
> WARNING ANCIENT SPOILERS ALERT
> WARNING ANCIENT SPOILERS ALERT
> WARNING ANCIENT SPOILERS ALERT
> WARNING ANCIENT SPOILERS ALERT
> WARNING ANCIENT SPOILERS ALERT
> WARNING ANCIENT SPOILERS ALERT
> 
> 

Sounds cool - why do the baddies hate Jump Tech?  I am creating a new
minor race at the moment who are near the core.  Discovered by the
Solomani Core Expeditions - IPX ;-)  which will indicate that Grandfather
and his kids were much more powerfull then expected ... <insert dramatic
music>

:)

Another minor point - there is zero evidence that Grandfather gave jump to
the races apart from the Droyn - unless you have a conspiracy theory
going.


> 
> 
> There are coyns portraying all six major races but none other and the coyns
> were introduced well before any of the six invented j-drive but Droyne.
> This implies (to me) that Yaskoydroy had something to do with making each
> of the major races develop j-drive. In my universe Yaskoydroys children set
> off some super tech stuff that eventually would disturb the super race
> known as baddies from the core. When he realised that he killed off his
> children, destroyed as much of his doings as he could and hid in a pocket
> universe (Grandfather knew about the baddies and what they could do). Later
> ha gave certain races J-drives so that when the super hightech but sublight
> baddies (my invention) arrived they'd blame one of the major races and kill
> them off without ever knowing about grandfather. He put the psionic
> Zhodanis closest to the arriving baddies in hope they'd be the prime
> suspects. The baddies are known to have exterminated all jumpcapable
> civilizations in the galaxy about 75 million years ago and this is the
> reason there doesn't seem to be any other high tech civs in the galaxy
> (otherwise why haven't the Imperium found them with radiotelescopes?).
> Nobody (but me) knows why the baddies hate j-drives so much and only use
> sublight themselves.
> 
> When my players will find this out they will probably kill grandfather
> themselves.
> 
> 
> /Anders Backman
> Aniware AB
> anders.backman@aniware.se
> 
> 
> 





Kikaku
The Happy beggar, whom the passer loathes,
Wears earth and Heaven as his summer clothes.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:06:40 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Core Expedition dates

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> On Wed, 14 May 1997, Michael Solomani Mifsud wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Does anyone have the dates of the Solomani Core Expeditions?
> 
> Do you mean the Zhodani Core Expeditions? There were some deep rimward
> Solomani exploratory missions, those were mentioned on the list a while
> back.

No Solomani, I was under the impression that the Solomani also did core
expeditions.  If not I can just make up a date - if so, I would like
the dates.

thanks.




Kikaku
The Happy beggar, whom the passer loathes,
Wears earth and Heaven as his summer clothes.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:58:58 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Jumpspace Wormhole Theory

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> At 06:09 PM 5/14/97 +1000, you wrote:
> 
> >hmmm, what is your source for this information?  I just pulled a source
> >out now (dated 1993, so it could easily be dated) and I quote;
> 
> The observations were made in 96 and 97.. check out:
> 
> http://www.drdale.com/index.htm

Will do, I find this area of science fascinating.

> 
> for some good links (I've misplaced the HST page.. help?)
> 
> >See the thing about black holes is that they are black, and the thing
> >about space is that, well, its black too - so its hard finding the little
> >(or giant) suckers.
> 
> But the accretion disk glows like Kryten's smegging head after a date with
> Camille.

hehehe, Im glad the reference did not go *completely* to waste.

> 
> >Agreed, I never said otherwise - BUT I would rather "mathematically
> >feasible" (which is incorrect, should read "mathematically PROVED") and
> >"conjecture" over complete fantasy and lots of hand waving (RE: Jump
> >Drives).
> 
> It has also been mathematically proven that bumble bees are incapable of
> flight.  You care to tell them that their in violation?  Until it is
> observed, it's a nice theory.

True, mathematically I can prove that an Elephant can hang by it's tale
from the side of cliff attached to a daisy:)

BUT, having said that I would *personally* prefer something which has
*some* kind of evidence and which can be worked given parameters like
"highly advanced civilisation" then some thing that is complete baloney.






Kikaku
The Happy beggar, whom the passer loathes,
Wears earth and Heaven as his summer clothes.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:59:50 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: IG Pricing Policy

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> Are you saying that the LL=Gov problem will not be corrected in the 
> hard bound version of M0/FS?

Hi Kenneth,

Further detail about Law Levels will be provided in the hardbound "Milieu 
0 Campaign" (if I have that title right).  The UWP's provided in First 
Survey will not be changed.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh  |  Game Designer for Marc Miller's Traveller
_________________|  Atari 1200XL and Apple IIGS User and Programmer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:56:00 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: RE: First Survey error's?

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Scott Ellsworth wrote:

> Critical data errors:

Hmmm. Let's have fun with this, and try to figure it out... :)  
[Reminder, I'm speaking for myself, as I'm not IG's representative to TML 
any longer.]


> 1.  It does not match the descriptions in M0 very well - known enemies have
> a thousandth the population, and lower tech.

Which enemies, specifically, are you thinking of?  I'd like to take a 
crack at explaining it.


> 2.  Every world has the law level and the government type equal.

True.  The IISS had no Law Level digit in their UWP codes at the 
beginning of the Imperium.  Why not?  Take your pick:

1)  Some of the member worlds feared that advertising some of their law 
levels would have a negative effect on their tourist trade, so directed 
the IISS not to publish such data.

2)  The person in charge of the IISS was only concerned with data related 
to economic exploitation.  Law level wasn't important.  It wasn't until 
centuries later that the then-current head of the IISS added the Law 
Level digit.

Or..any other suggestions?

As for why the UWP's published in the IG product first Survey still 
contain Law Levels (rather than leaving it blank), it may have been done 
for a couple of reasons: 1) In order to maintain consistency with other 
Survey-style products to be produced in the future, as well as the 
format given in the T4 book and the T4 Game screen, while still 
providing a unique "feel" to Milieu 0, and 2) to provide Referee's with a 
guideline LL for use in casual situations (whereas the LL extension to 
the UWP would be for use in more in-depth scenarios).


> Possible data errors, or at least things that need addressing:
> 
> 1.  Vland has far too few people to be an industrial power that matters.
> In general, populations are small enough that I would be very concerned
> about the ability of many of these world to maintain an industrial base.

Population is the number of permanent residents of a given world.  So, 
where is Vland getting those workers?  Are they, in year 0, engaging in 
slavery and not considering slaves permanent residents (i.e., not 
citizens)?  Is there a second world in the system that has a large 
population, is a client state of Vland, and serves as the main world's 
economic base?  Do they have robots doing most of the work?  Or is there 
another explanation...?


> 2.  Sylea has 30 billion people, and Shudusham has 70 billion.  This is
> perfectly acceptable, but I got the strong feeling that it would be
> Shudusham, not Sylea that was running the SyFed, were this the case.  Did
> they really mean to have Sylea have an order of magnitude more population
> than most of the rest of the SyFed combined?

Maybe SHudusham hasn't the political will to take over the Sylean Federation 
space?  Maybe they didn't have the military might to do so?  Perhaps it 
was that their Economic Extension (explained in Pocket Empires) reveals 
that their economic base is woefully inadequate, and that Sylea in fact 
built them up to TL C in the years before the founding of the 3I.  Lots 
of explanations...


> 3.  Worlds that would have to be stopped at en route to Shudusham or Vland
> do not have full data.  Shudusham has been a member since -112.

Yes, why would the Imperium not wish to publish that data?  Recall that 
the data in the first half of FS is what was published for public 
consumption and/or is generally known.  The stuff in the back is what the 
Imperium knows (or will know once it expands far enough).  So, why 
wouldn't the Imperium reveal the names and data for those worlds?  Hmmm.  
Maybe the Imperium has an agenda?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh  |  Game Designer for Marc Miller's Traveller
_________________|  Atari 1200XL and Apple IIGS User and Programmer

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 1997 00:04:36 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth

>Actually was it not ASIMOV who stated that a sufficiently advanced
>technology will be indistinguishable from magic?

Nope.  It was Clarke.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:19:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Major problem with QSDS/FFS

> Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:30:50 +0200 (MET DST)
> From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
> 
> On Wed, 14 May 1997, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > In mail you write:
> > Take a heavy keyboard or other elongated object and try holding it
> > parallel to the floor by only grabbing the small end. Feel how much
> > force you need? Then try holding by the long edge. It'll be *much*
> > easier. 
> 
> But still today we have aeroplanes with wings put on like this.
> With the advances in material strenght they have made in Traveller
> I really don't see why this configuration is so bad, for a unstreamlined
> ship of course. Hell we have ships with armor that will withstand
> a 12G missile hit, and the material is not supposed to handle this
> situation for a 6G acceleration ship. I really disagree with you.

The point is that any sane engineer will avoid this 'cantilever'
orientation if they have *any* choice at all in the matter.  A nose- (or
tail-) in configuration puts a huge bending moment on the attachment
point, as Leonard mentioned; it also means you don't get two or more
separated attachment points along the carried craft's length for
redundancy.

The wing comparison is meaningless; wings *have* to be cantilevered, so
they are.

The real underlying problem here is that, by any argument, QSDS massively
overestimates (IMHO) the area required for any carried craft except
(perhaps) a needle-config craft being carried on an airframe hull.  Rather
than propose clearly insane grappling geometries, let's see if we can fix
the underlying model, shall we?

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:41:18 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: On culture shock and technological change

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Craig Berry wrote:

*clap* *clap* *clap*

Bravo!  Now I do not just like what you said just because it agree's with
what *I* believein parts ;-)

Another example - of course this is *all* hypothetical and I would rather
agree to disagree then continue a pointless argument - not its come to
that yet.

I think an Egyptian would be able to adapt, eventually.  But if I whisked
away someone from 1000AD and plonked them in 2000AD (lets say 1997) I
believe it would take much longer for him/her to adapt and the initial
shock would be much greater then say, if I was whisked magically from
2000AD and plonked into 3000AD.

Now, bear with me, I cant fully imagine what 3000AD would be like, but I
can take a guess.  Almost all the technology we take for granted today was
invented in the last 100 years - steam engine, electricity, telephones,
radio, television, cinema, aviation, electronics, nuclear power and
(limited) space flight.  I find it difficult to believe some one from the
10th Century (an Archimedes or a Leonardo) not being shell shocked if he
now had to *live* in this society.  Not like the Native Americans you
mentioned who *visited* Europe, but who would have to live in Europe.

Lets flip the example, take an Egyption from 1BC and stick him in 1000AD
Egypt, he would have much *less* trouble coping becuse the advancement was
not so great.  Take the same Egyptian and stick him in 1997 Egypt and he
will find it difficult to cope - he will probably survive, but will never
fully comprehend modern Egypt.

It's tempting to think we would cope better in 2097 if we were
transplanted.  I think we would. Surely the fundamental scientific
discoveries have already been made.  Dont misread me I am also sure that
there will be *major* improvements in technology, but will there be
anything so new, so magical and as incomprehensible to us as a pocket
claculator or a video camera, or a TV or a plane would be to an 1000AD
Egyptian?

In the end though, its just mental excercise, none of us will know what
the next 1000 years will bring, but I would like to think that a man of
the late 20th century could cope much better if he was banished to the
late 30th century - then the poor Egyptian from 1000AD could ever hope to.

> 
> Douglas made some excellent points about how much things have changed just
> in this century; I have some musings to share which extend and elaborate
> his points.
> 
> First off, culture/tech shock, while disruptive in the extreme, is not (in
> general) as utterly intolerable as some TML authors make it out to be.
> Take an ancient Egyptian and drop him into downtown LA today.  True
> enough, for the first day or two he'll have no mental model for what he's
> seeing other than (perhaps) that he's entered the realm of the gods.  And
> there's a fair chance that during the first 24 hours he'll get himself
> killed -- by traffic, by doing something the police interpret as
> aggressive/crazy, by stepping on the Metro's third rail, or whatever.
> 
> However, give him a few days -- and the chance to find a modern guide and
> guardian -- and he'll being to understand that he's among people using
> technology/magic he does not understand -- but for *purposes* he
> understands completely.  People today (like people 5,000 years ago) eat,
> sleep, fuck, talk with one another, worship, fight...there are no new
> motivations, just different ways of expressing them.  A car will be pure
> magic, as will the grocery store...but the idea of going to a market to
> get food will be instantly comprehensible.  Within a week, our Egyptian
> will be getting comfortable with the routine magic in our society, and
> learning how to use it to meet his own needs.
> 
> This has already been tested on Earth, many times.  Native Americans
> travelled to Europe as curiosities during the 17th and 18th centuries, and
> didn't die of culture shock despite the 3ish TL and massive cultural
> differences between the two societies.  Those inhabitants of the Valley of
> Mexico not killed by Spaniards or smallpox were participating fully in a
> Spanish culture within 30 years after the conquest, many much earlier than
> that.  Never underestimate the power of human adaptability.
> 
> As for extrapolating technological change, I read an excellent essay on
> this topic a while back -- wish I could remember the author or title.  It
> suggested that projections of technological change tend to be linear,
> while actual change is exponential.  As a result, short-term projections
> tend to overestimate technological progress -- leading to the well known
> premature hype phenomenon -- while long-term projections *seriously*
> underestimate progress.  Where the cross-over point occurs is an
> intriguing question; in the computer industry (which I know best), it's
> quite a short interval, perhaps 3-5 years.  In other fields, I'd guess
> it's two or three decades.
> 
> Anyway, just my ramblings.  Comments, flames, and near-c rocks welcome.
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>    |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
>  --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
>    |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
>        "Every man and every woman is a star."
> 
> 





Kikaku
The Happy beggar, whom the passer loathes,
Wears earth and Heaven as his summer clothes.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:41:18 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: On culture shock and technological change

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Craig Berry wrote:

*clap* *clap* *clap*

Bravo!  Now I do not just like what you said just because it agree's with
what *I* believein parts ;-)

Another example - of course this is *all* hypothetical and I would rather
agree to disagree then continue a pointless argument - not its come to
that yet.

I think an Egyptian would be able to adapt, eventually.  But if I whisked
away someone from 1000AD and plonked them in 2000AD (lets say 1997) I
believe it would take much longer for him/her to adapt and the initial
shock would be much greater then say, if I was whisked magically from
2000AD and plonked into 3000AD.

Now, bear with me, I cant fully imagine what 3000AD would be like, but I
can take a guess.  Almost all the technology we take for granted today was
invented in the last 100 years - steam engine, electricity, telephones,
radio, television, cinema, aviation, electronics, nuclear power and
(limited) space flight.  I find it difficult to believe some one from the
10th Century (an Archimedes or a Leonardo) not being shell shocked if he
now had to *live* in this society.  Not like the Native Americans you
mentioned who *visited* Europe, but who would have to live in Europe.

Lets flip the example, take an Egyption from 1BC and stick him in 1000AD
Egypt, he would have much *less* trouble coping becuse the advancement was
not so great.  Take the same Egyptian and stick him in 1997 Egypt and he
will find it difficult to cope - he will probably survive, but will never
fully comprehend modern Egypt.

It's tempting to think we would cope better in 2097 if we were
transplanted.  I think we would. Surely the fundamental scientific
discoveries have already been made.  Dont misread me I am also sure that
there will be *major* improvements in technology, but will there be
anything so new, so magical and as incomprehensible to us as a pocket
claculator or a video camera, or a TV or a plane would be to an 1000AD
Egyptian?

In the end though, its just mental excercise, none of us will know what
the next 1000 years will bring, but I would like to think that a man of
the late 20th century could cope much better if he was banished to the
late 30th century - then the poor Egyptian from 1000AD could ever hope to.

> 
> Douglas made some excellent points about how much things have changed just
> in this century; I have some musings to share which extend and elaborate
> his points.
> 
> First off, culture/tech shock, while disruptive in the extreme, is not (in
> general) as utterly intolerable as some TML authors make it out to be.
> Take an ancient Egyptian and drop him into downtown LA today.  True
> enough, for the first day or two he'll have no mental model for what he's
> seeing other than (perhaps) that he's entered the realm of the gods.  And
> there's a fair chance that during the first 24 hours he'll get himself
> killed -- by traffic, by doing something the police interpret as
> aggressive/crazy, by stepping on the Metro's third rail, or whatever.
> 
> However, give him a few days -- and the chance to find a modern guide and
> guardian -- and he'll being to understand that he's among people using
> technology/magic he does not understand -- but for *purposes* he
> understands completely.  People today (like people 5,000 years ago) eat,
> sleep, fuck, talk with one another, worship, fight...there are no new
> motivations, just different ways of expressing them.  A car will be pure
> magic, as will the grocery store...but the idea of going to a market to
> get food will be instantly comprehensible.  Within a week, our Egyptian
> will be getting comfortable with the routine magic in our society, and
> learning how to use it to meet his own needs.
> 
> This has already been tested on Earth, many times.  Native Americans
> travelled to Europe as curiosities during the 17th and 18th centuries, and
> didn't die of culture shock despite the 3ish TL and massive cultural
> differences between the two societies.  Those inhabitants of the Valley of
> Mexico not killed by Spaniards or smallpox were participating fully in a
> Spanish culture within 30 years after the conquest, many much earlier than
> that.  Never underestimate the power of human adaptability.
> 
> As for extrapolating technological change, I read an excellent essay on
> this topic a while back -- wish I could remember the author or title.  It
> suggested that projections of technological change tend to be linear,
> while actual change is exponential.  As a result, short-term projections
> tend to overestimate technological progress -- leading to the well known
> premature hype phenomenon -- while long-term projections *seriously*
> underestimate progress.  Where the cross-over point occurs is an
> intriguing question; in the computer industry (which I know best), it's
> quite a short interval, perhaps 3-5 years.  In other fields, I'd guess
> it's two or three decades.
> 
> Anyway, just my ramblings.  Comments, flames, and near-c rocks welcome.
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>    |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
>  --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
>    |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
>        "Every man and every woman is a star."
> 
> 





Kikaku
The Happy beggar, whom the passer loathes,
Wears earth and Heaven as his summer clothes.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:48:27 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Marathon II

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Glenn Myers wrote:

My experience of NT/WIn95

Games made for dos have about the same chance of working on NT as we do of
breaking the Light barrie - almost nil.

Win3.11 has a slightly better chnace.

Win95 has about a 50/50 chance.

NT is not designed for games or many not network related applications,
thats what win95 is for.

> 
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> Some random bits...
> 
> After someone mentioned using Marathon to view starship interiors,  I 
> noticed that it was available at COMP-USA for Windows 95 for only $9.95. 
> This may be of interest to all the PC users on the TML.
> 
> BTW, does Windows 95 always mean Windows NT compatible? I recently got 
> Marathon II Powerbook and I'd like to putit on my PC running NT.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Glenn
> 
> ______________________________________________________
> Glenn E. Myers
> ANSYS Inc.                Email: glenn.myers@ansys.com
> 275 Technology Drive      Phone: (412) 514-2913
> Canonsburg, PA 15317      Fax:   (412) 514-3118
> ______________________________________________________
> 
> 
> 





Kikaku
The Happy beggar, whom the passer loathes,
Wears earth and Heaven as his summer clothes.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:34:32 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: IG Pricing Policy

On Thu, 15 May 1997, Jason Anderson wrote:

> No, if you have a look at the IG website you will see that all the prices
> for supplements have been lowered to $20. They also keep changing the price
> of the new edition hardback which they are producing, although that hasn't
> changed for the last few weeks.

Huh.  I didn't know that, but of course you're right.  I've been so 
buried in writing stuff for IG that I haven't read much of TML, nor have 
I visited IG's web site lately.  (I'm now between projects - finished 
with my part of the M0 32 pages, and preparing to work on the outline for 
the next project, so I have some time to pretend like my life is 
normal<G>.) 

Anyway, the price drop is good news.  Hmmm.  Could be economies of scale 
(Traveller's selling so well they can print up many more each print run, 
and thereby get a lower price for each book printed), could be that the 
higher price wasn't working for them, or it could be a combination.  
Anyway, it's good news for me and you! :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh  |  Game Designer for Marc Miller's Traveller
_________________|  Atari 1200XL and Apple IIGS User and Programmer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:40:49 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: IG Pricing Policy

On Thu, 15 May 1997, Jason Anderson wrote:

> Well, the law=gov I don't really care about, and the explaination given by
> IG is plausable (although Vland having next to no population and the data
> not matching M0, and.. are all problems that can't be explained away).

We're referee's, it's our job to explain the unexplainable <grin>.  
We can do it.  See one of my posts that starts the process...


> However, what gets me is the starport problem - I'm sorry, but I don't
> agree that there should be that many A class and B class starports.
> Certainly not in M0 anyway.

That *is* weird, isn't it?  Having worked on Pocket Empires, I can 
conjecture that perhaps the A and B class starports have an economic 
reason.  In that book (if I can remember 'way back, three projects ago), 
one world can build up another world's starport.  Why would they want 
to?  To realize the economic benefit to the entire pocket empire (the 
more, better starports in a PE, the better off the whole PE is - better 
trade, and better ability to build good military ships).  There's one 
explanation, anyway.


> What I've taken to doing is using the players information, and then
> generating the rest of the systems stats myself. Ok, so its not "official",
> but at least I can modify them to suit myself. Like having one class A
> starport a subsector, if that, and MANY more class X.

I don't recall whether you were around when the whole "Blank worlds" vs. 
"full data" debate was going on, but I was on the side of having blank 
worlds.  What you're doing is almost certainly what I'll do whenever I 
have time to run a game (I play in two, but I just don't have time to 
referee these days).  Not because I think the FS data is particularly 
awful, but because I like to shape the universe to fit my ideas, rather 
than vice versa. 


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh  |  Game Designer for Marc Miller's Traveller
_________________|  Atari 1200XL and Apple IIGS User and Programmer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 21:04:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@peterboro.net>
Subject: The Return

I'm up at the new site.

My website is currently active at both sites, however please adjust your
webpages to point to the new one ASAP as the old one WILL be going down at
the end of May.

Spider, I'll be adding a pointer to your site on mine shortly.


- -- DLH                                 lhadley@peterboro.net

http://www.peterboro.net/~lhadley/Profile.html

  "Fight to fly, fly to fight, fight to win." - TOPGUN motto.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:22:56 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Tommy Grav wrote:

I hate to add to the already high level of noise on TML, but I will any
way:)

[snip]
> But we don't really know what really violates our universe because we 
> don't have one universial tehory that covers everything. Rules and laws
> of the universe evolve, just look at the Newtonian laws. Now we have
> Einstein revisions of these laws. And If you take a deep look at
> quantum mechanics and relativistic theories, you'll find that these
> two collide on some rather important issues. 

The Laws of Physics are a good start - I can not imagine the Law of
Gravity being dispensed with - can you? or the speed of Light?

So my point is that we should have as much science as possible and
minimise the fiction.  I think its fun picturing myself or in this
context my character travelling through a wormhole or hyperspace and
knowing this is not complete fantasy, this has *some* theoritical base.

Now, dont get me wrong, I see your point and I am sure there are still
lots of things to discover, but laws are laws - unless we screwed up REAL
big time they will not change.  Laws are called laws because no matter
what the circumstances are they will hold true.  We might add new Laws but
I cant see the current set being replaced even in a 1000 years.

Then again - they may indeed.  But we still need a scientific basis for as
much as possible in a game like Traveller, the *only* acceptable
technology or idea that can be hand waved is those which require the game
to work, like Jump Drives for instance.

[we agreed on the next point so i snipped it]

> > > secret of anti-grav or cheap fusion?  If they do, our children and
> > [snip]
> > 
> > They wont be discovered *if* they violate the rules of the universe.  So
> > either the rules are wrong, or the discovery is impossible - I would like
> > to think the rules are right, or very close to right at this point in
> > time.
> 
> But that is it. Maybe our laws are wrong. They might explain what we 
> have seen today, but they can still be wrong. For example take the 
[snip]

Granted, maybe our laws *are* wrong indeed, but it I think its unlikely.
Why am I so confident?  Because they work, there beutifull and simple.  I
share the same belief Einstein did - how did he know he was right about
relativity way back in 1916, he had no observational evidence?  He
believed they were right because they were more simple and beutiful then
Newtonian theory of Stable space.

I *think* the current Jump system is ugly, so In my Universe I will change
it allowing only a minimal of hand waving for consistency (1 week jump,
when you enter Hyperspace you are cutoff from everything and the maximum
is 6 parsecs)

> Yes I would. Because by my notions and understanding of the universe
> I don't see why Jump Drives can not work. Of course there is more
> plausible explanations, but the Jump Drive still works.

I hate to sound rude, but your kidding right?  Let me explain to you what
I *think* your saying - that the Jump Drives used in Trvaveller are
consistent with our current understanding of FTL and hyperspace and you
*cant* see why the Jump drive would not work in our Universe?

> > I was not talking about culture, not at all - I was comparing
> > technological differences, in which case Mr1930 would be more comfortable
> > in SF 1997 then Mr 1000BC Egyptian.  The context was "technology" and
> > "technological advancement".
> 
> But technology is just cultural. At least in my view.

Cool, thats fine.

> > No I wouldnt be *shocked* I wouldnt be so stunned by the revelation that
> > humans can now transplant minds to new bodys that I would consider it the
> > realm of the gods.   Surprised of course, but no so surprised I could not
> > cope with it.
> 
> How do you know. Now your making the mistake you claimed the
> writer of the post you answered made. How do you know how you
> would react. You might have a notion, but you really don't know.
> Only ending up in that situation would reveal your reaction.

Let me explain, I *can* say with a great deal of accuracy how *I* would
act in a given situation.  Which is only logical since *I* know myself
better than anyone else.  BUT the honourable MrBerry was speaking about a
*another* persons reaction, not his own, which, unless you know that
person intimately you can not say with any accuarcy.  I hope thats cleared
that up.

As a side note such a concept (recording a mind and transplanting it) is
not that way out. In a paper by Dr. Chris Winter (1996) he
suggested dense memory of a great order of magnitude will be available in
aprox 30 years.  He also stated that to "recreat a person physically,
emotinally and spritually" would require about 10 Terabytes.  Therefore at
this point in time we have the technology to store someones memories  (in
the capicity sense, not an interface sense), so the leap from that
*current* understanding of the mind to transplanting my mind to a new body
is not to great.


Thanks for your comments MrGrav!


Kikaku
The Happy beggar, whom the passer loathes,
Wears earth and Heaven as his summer clothes.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1322
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 15 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1323



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: First Survey 'Errata' and IG Pricing Policy
Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth
Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth
Re: On culture shock and technological change
Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth
Re: Corps
Re: MAJOR PROBLEM WITH QSDS/FFS
Re: Traveller Jumpspace Wormhole Theory
Re: MAJOR PROBLEM WITH QSDS/FFS
Re: Canon, no canon
Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth
1G accel?
Re: Ancients and jump-space
Re: 1G accel?
Surrvey
Re: Marathon II
Re: IG Pricing Policy
Re: ANCIENT Grandfather
Re: Ship economics -- fuel comsumption

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 20:06:49 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: First Survey 'Errata' and IG Pricing Policy

Hi Scott,

> From the sound of things, IG is committed to the FS data as it is.  This is
> not what I would like, but I can always change the numbers I do not like in
> my own game.  Taking a firm stand is better than being wishy washy, even
> when I would prefer you to have made a different firm stand.

Right.  I'm sure we could all come up with different approaches, but IG 
came up with one that is workable and they've implemented it. Now we 
figure out how to make it work for us. :)


> I cannot use the FS data as printed, and so I really, really think you
                                                                     ^^^

Not to pick on you, because you're not the only one to make the 
assumption implied by the above statement, but please keep in mind I'm 
just a freelancer who IG chooses to offer contracts to.  I'm no longer 
IG's net.rep, and I never have had control over IG's policies (and, 
frankly, wouldn't want to - I have enough to worry about<G>).  Since I was 
net.rep for so long, I just feel it necessary to point that out (but I'm 
probably just paranoid<G>). 


> should release the data in a machine readable form, if only to those who
> have already given you money for it in the form of buying FS.  IG clearly
> has an interest in protecting future income potential from that data, but
> you must balance that with customer dismay.  Joe, I sympathize with the
> dilemma of you and Stu, given what was done before you had a chance to
> influence it, but I hope that you sympathize with my own perception of the
> data as flawed.  Your fix is an interesting one, but I already tried it on

Just to clarify, IG came up with the idea behind fix.  I actually 
came up with the specific data to be provided in the Law Level Extension 
to the UWP, and the tables that explain each possible value for those 
digits.  But IG developed the original idea; credit where it's due.


> my players, and got an unprintable reaction.  The response was very
> impolite, and stopped the game dead.  It also produced a call to go back to
> MT, which I do not want to do - I find the whole M0 era far more interesting.

I'm glad you find the M0 era interesting.  I'm a CTer from 'way back, but 
the Spinward Marches I used was a lot less well-explored than the 
official Spinward Marches.  I like M0's wide-open possibilities, the 
chance to discover new worlds, carve out a pocket empire, and so on.

As for the FS data being unusable, you're welcome to come up with your 
own data and/or fix (as I mentioned in a previous post, I'd already 
decided long ago - even before FS came out - to use my own data, because 
I like to have a universe that fits my ideas, rather than vice versa), 
but in a few other posts I started the process of coming up with 
explanations for the anomalies.  It's at least a fun excercise; take a 
look, and add your own if you feel like it.


> The way it is, I _will_ have to scavenge the data and come up with law
> levels.  My players demand it, and I am willing to do so.  I cannot do that
> easily, though, if I have to also scan in the data and make corrections.
> Further, I am not happy with the maps in FS, as I usually use subsector
> maps, and can generate those from sector maps easily.  I would at least
> like to start with the data you have made canon.

I'd love to see a series of maps like the old Spinward Marches map, made 
for each of the sectors in FS.  I'm told it's not in the cards right now, 
but perhaps sometime.  I agree; I'll be making my own subsector maps as 
well; it's just a lot more convenient than the full-page sector maps in 
FS.  But, that's me.


> If you want me to mail you the front cover or title page from FS in
> exchange for the underlying data, that would be quite fair, and I am
> perfectly willing to sign things saying I will not propagate the data.  I
> do enough beta testing, and am under enough NDAs that this is hardly a new
> situation, or a hardship for me.  Further, this is the form in which I
> would have liked to order FS originally anyway.  Heck, I even tried to
> order the Merchant Prince data on disk years ago from GDW.

I'm sorry, Scott, but I don't own the rights to anything published by IG, 
including my own work.  I can't help you there.  You'll have to contact 
IG directly and propose the above in order to get a definitive answer.


> I still do not have access to the missing deck plan from M0.  M0 came out
> months ago, and the missing deck plan was known before it shipped.  Given
> the competition in the gaming industry, it behooves you to push errata and
> fixes.

My wife is working on the revised deck plan for the Scout Cruiser, which 
from the original version (while maintaining compatability with the key 
provided in M0).  If IG decides to distribute that over the 'web, that'll 
be their decision.  Again, I don't own it.  When I sign the contract, I'm 
selling all rights to my work to IG, including derivative rights and 
everything else.


> We both agree that a recall would cost far too much.  I have hopefully
> convinced you that one possible way to divert the complaints would be to
> let those of us who are trying to work with the FS data have access to it
> in an easy to manipulate form.

Again, to receive a definitive answer, contact IG directly.  Present your 
argument logically and reasonably (as you've done in your post), and let 
us know what happens.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh  |  Game Designer for Marc Miller's Traveller
_________________|  Atari 1200XL and Apple IIGS User and Programmer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:32:15 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> >No I wouldnt be *shocked* I wouldnt be so stunned by the revelation that
> >humans can now transplant minds to new bodys that I would consider it the
> >realm of the gods.   Surprised of course, but no so surprised I could not
> >cope with it.
> 
> Who said anything about brain transplants.  :)

I don't know who?  I didn't I said *mind* ;)





Kikaku
The Happy beggar, whom the passer loathes,
Wears earth and Heaven as his summer clothes.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:33:54 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Bruce Johnson wrote:

[snip]
> Why do you think we're going to slow down?
> 

ahh I dont.

> Yes, I did get the picture of the 27, not quite what I see in _my_ mind's
> eye...what I see is more similar to a 'rod and ribbon' model of a compact
> protein, if you have a biochem textbook handy, or like those string and
> dowel 'sculptures' set into something like a geodesic dome, but with far
> less regularity. Something that looks incredibly flimsy.

If you have web address of something similiar I can use as a model, I'd
give it a go.




Kikaku
The Happy beggar, whom the passer loathes,
Wears earth and Heaven as his summer clothes.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 97 19:39:11 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: On culture shock and technological change

On 05/14/97 at 10:15 AM,  Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net> said:

> A car will be pure magic, as will the grocery store...but the idea
> of going to a market to get food will be instantly comprehensible.
> Within a week, our Egyptian will be getting comfortable with the
> routine magic in our society, and learning how to use it to meet
> his own needs.

Excluding the members of this list from our sample, if we were to take a
random sample of 1,000 American/Canadian/European adults and ask them to
explain the science and technology behind a:  car, radio, computer, or
nuclear power plant what you want to bet magic would just about cover it? 
;-> Ask somebody to explain how the economic system works sometime..ask an
*economist* to explain it..ask *several* economists to explain it. ;->

People can use things they don't understand easily enough.  They have a
*harder* time repairing or duplicating things they don't understand, but
that doesn't mean they can't.

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:47:27 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Glenn Hoppe wrote:

> On 1997-05-13 19:31 thus spake Michael Solomani Mifsud:
> 
> >> 	If you build a game around stl travel between the stars, you can't
> >> realistically have interaction between different systems, or between
> >> ships and systems...all you're left with is one planet, or one ship, and
> >> the game certainly wouldn't be Traveller.
> >
> >True - but there are alternate theorys of FTL travel which seemed to be
> >overlooked by Traveller and a great many other sci-fi's.
> 
> I don't agree with your implication in the above statement.
> 
> There's many different kinds of FTL ideas in Science Fiction. Each author 
> or creator of Science Fiction chooses a method, and develops how it works 
> and its affects on the denizens of his or her universe. It is my humble 
> opinion, that it is best *not* to mix too many different methods of FTL 
> travel when creating a sci-fi background. It is better to concentrate on 
> one "vision" of how FTL travel works, and stick to it. Consistancy, 
> consistancy, consistancy.

Hmmm, dont see the connection to my statement.  I also agree that you
should not mix FTL styles at all.  Its one way or the another. 

> So alternate theories of FTL travel haven't been "overlooked". Marc 
> decided hyperspace (ie. jumpspace) was the way to go for TRAVELLER, and 
> he stuck to it. He, or someone else, decided that Stutterwarp was the way 
> to go for 2300AD, so that was the method used there, and it had different 
> implications for that universe.

Thats fine, I am not arguing that it should be replaced.  Not at all (??)

> 
> I do *not* want Imperium Games to officially invalidate jump-drives and 
> how they work. If _you_ choose to model other ways of interstellar 
> travel, go ahead, but don't say to me that the Traveller way is "wrong".
> 

Hmmm, did *I* say it was wrong?  *I* dont think so. *I* said that the method
used in Traveller does not mesh at all well with our current theoritical
knowledge on FTL.  After doing some research *I* have found an alternate
way and *I* will be using this system in *my* universe, but I would like
to hear TML gearhead opinion on *my* use of an alternate method and how to
mesh that into *my* Universe.

Please note the liberal use of personal pronouns.  I am *not* advocating a
change.  I never said that the Jump System in Traveller was "wrong" -
unrealistic, unexplainable, with lots of hand waving but not "wrong". 

> BTW, if you haven't yet, you should check out the Relativity and FTL 
> Travel FAQ at
> <http://www.physics.purdue.edu/~hinson/ftl/>

Yes I have read the FAQ, but its very much geared towards Star Trek system
of warping with only a subsection on the system used by Traveller and the
wormhole system I suggesst.  He also has a different defintion of a
wormhole then what it actually is (he uses the DS9 type of wormhole).






Kikaku
The Happy beggar, whom the passer loathes,
Wears earth and Heaven as his summer clothes.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:00:33 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Corps

Normally, I don't bring this up (it is a Traveller mailing list
after all) but since we are already talking about alternate
systems that go with the Traveller background...  I've
been using GURPS for over a year now and it works very
well.  A copy of my article on using GURPS with Traveller
is available at....
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/articles/traveller.html
ftp://ftp.io.com/pub/GURPSnet/Worlds/Traveller/TravellerII.txt
and ftp.mpgn.com (I don't have the URL on me)
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 21:19:39 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: MAJOR PROBLEM WITH QSDS/FFS

At 12:21 pm 05/14/97 +0200, you wrote:
>On Tue, 13 May 1997, David J. Golden wrote:
>
>> At 09:10 am 05/13/97 +0200, you wrote:
>> >                  +---------------------+ |
>> >                  |      Small Craft    |E| Mother Ship
>> >                  +---------------------+ |
>> >
>> >This should be no problem with crafts that are not to enter 
>> >atmospheres.
>> 
>> 	Actually, it means the grapples have to be MUCH stronger, there's a great
>> deal of force applied to both the grapple and the base of the small craft
>> during even normal acceleration, much less evasion, and there are likely to
>> be some serious bending moments on the small craft. So it is somewhat of a
>> problem.
>
>        But using superdense materials and for maybe a higher price
>  it should still be possible, right?  

	Most things are possible; not all things are feasible or desirable... In
your campaign, it's your call.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 21:24:19 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller Jumpspace Wormhole Theory

At 05:51 am 05/14/97 -0700, you wrote:
>At 06:09 PM 5/14/97 +1000, you wrote:
>It has also been mathematically proven that bumble bees are incapable of
>flight.  You care to tell them that their in violation?  Until it is
>observed, it's a nice theory.

	BASED on certain simplifying assumptions, it was proven ... which doesn't
demonstrate that there is a fundamental flaw in math, just that the person
doing the analysis chose poor assumptions. That's the problem with
engineering. You can NEVER solve an exact mathematical model, so you try to
simplify it using various tricks that you hope won't cause the answer to be
too far off. For example, for values of theta close to 0, cos( theta ) is
approximately 1. Sin( theta ) is approximately theta (if theta is measured
in radians). Just taking trig functions out of an equation can make it much
easier to solve.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 21:26:32 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: MAJOR PROBLEM WITH QSDS/FFS

At 03:30 pm 05/14/97 +0200, you wrote:
>On Wed, 14 May 1997, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> 
>> Only if they never manuever. The way you have it grappled is the
>> absolute *worst* when it comes to stress placed on the grapples. Even
>> if the ship is merely boosting, that config is bad news.
>> 
>> Take a heavy keyboard or other elongated object and try holding it
>> parallel to the floor by only grabbing the small end. Feel how much
>> force you need? Then try holding by the long edge. It'll be *much*
>> easier. 
>
>But still today we have aeroplanes with wings put on like this.
>With the advances in material strenght they have made in Traveller
>I really don't see why this configuration is so bad, for a unstreamlined
>ship of course. Hell we have ships with armor that will withstand
>a 12G missile hit, and the material is not supposed to handle this
>situation for a 6G acceleration ship. I really disagree with you.

	The problem with the missile hit has absolutely nothing to do with the
acceleration of the missile when it hits, and EVERYTHING to do with
velocity the missile had built up before that. Try setting a brick on your
fit. Your foot resists the 1G brick just fine. Now hold the brick above
your head, and drop it on your foot. Same 1G brick. Hurts like hell,
doesn't it?
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 21:32:25 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Canon, no canon

At 07:55 pm 05/13/97 -0400, you wrote:
>> Marc, Loren, nor Frank never dropped by to bless or damn my games. They
>> never required an orthodoxy test when I laid my money down. They never
>> threatened to take back their books if I didn't follow their rules.  ;->

	No, they didn't. In fact, the LBB's stated you were free to change things.
But after a while Marc, Frank and Loren were also trying to create a
consistent background for those who wanted to use it (the 3rd Imperium).
Once you start creating a background that's supposed to work together, you
have to stay consistent with how things work IN THE PUBLISHED STUFF.
Individual referees have always been free to pick and choose. But if, in
Adventure 1, a meson spinal mount is a fearsome thing, and in Adventure 2,
it's an annoying gnat bite, it takes more work to make the published
adventures fit together, and can seriously undermine the whole roleplaying
experience. ("Dammit, that worked yesterday!"  "Yesterday was Adventure 3.
This is Adventure 7." "But it's the same universe." "Universe changed.").
Players have to be able to count on the basics staying the same, so they
can concentrate on the role-playing.

	In short, you (and I, and everybody else) should be free to do whatever
you want in your campaign. But the PUBLISHED, OFFICIAL source material from
IG should stay as consistent as possible. If something is obviously broke,
bite the bullet and fix it. But don't cause discontinuities from sheer
sloppiness or ignorance of what you did previously.

	And yes, there are ALREADY discrepancies in Traveller, even if you exclude
everything new. So do you make things worse, or try to keep from ripping it
to shreds?
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 21:44:25 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth

At 12:22 pm 05/15/97 +1000, you wrote:
>Now, dont get me wrong, I see your point and I am sure there are still
>lots of things to discover, but laws are laws - unless we screwed up REAL
>big time they will not change.  Laws are called laws because no matter
>what the circumstances are they will hold true.  We might add new Laws but
>I cant see the current set being replaced even in a 1000 years.

	Actually, I think this is one of the biggest scientists make, presenting
things to the public as LAWS. That's actually a shorthand for "This is a
good model that does a decent job of predicting things under circumstances
we've tried it under, given certain assumptions, and we expect it will work
outside those circumstances, but the further out you get, the less sure we
are they'll work, simply because we haven't tried it there, but we don't
know of any reason it shouldn't work that way, so until something better
comes along, we're going with this." Most people associate laws with
absolutes. Aren't many absolutes in science. Newton's "laws" worked fine
under earthbound conditions.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:07:52 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: 1G accel?

A ship in normal space with 1g of blast acceleration would travel how
fast/far?  An answer in km/hour would be cool if anyone knows of the top
of thier heads.  Thanks.


Duty is what one expects from others

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 97 22:19:24 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Ancients and jump-space

On 05/14/97 at 05:24 PM,  "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
said:

> > In my campaign, jump-space is an Ancient artifact in itself.  The reason
> > the galaxy wasn't overrun with jump capable aliens long ago is because
> > it took a Tl 31 race to construct the jump-space in the first place.
> > The Tl-9 jump-drive is only an interface device.

> Now, this is some cool TML brainstorming.  I like this.  Maybe I'll  play
> around with it.

Yeah, it appeals to my perverse nature too. ;->

> And, in Traveller Cannon, they don't really know that much about 
> Jumpspace.  They just know that they can go through it.  They even  don't
> really know how the jump drives work--completely.

No, carry it further!  They *think* they know what it is, and base their
physics theories on it..but they are wrong.  They *think* they understand
how jump drives work, and design their jump drives based on what they
think..but they are wrong.  Maybe, if they *really* understood it they
would have jump-50, from a planets surface.  ;->

OTOH *maybe*, jump space is simply a place somebody dumps garbage...

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 22:54:04 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: 1G accel?

 
> A ship in normal space with 1g of blast acceleration would travel how
> fast/far?  An answer in km/hour would be cool if anyone knows of the top
> of thier heads.  Thanks.

It depends on how long you have the drives lit up.

The velocity (in meters per second) of a ship at 1g is:

V = (9.8)t^2
    --------
	2

Where t is the time (in seconds) that the drive runs.  Typically 9.8
is rounded to 10 for traveller (gs could just as well be rated that
way in traveller since 9.8 is specific to earth).

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 02:32:54 -0800
From: Evyn gutierrez <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Surrvey

Solomani Core Expedition?!? Maybe Mike you are thinking of the Rim
Missions metioned in Rats & Cats.

The Gov=Law fix works by me. And for Y'all s who don't like it, 
Well say your piece, suggest a fix, hell use your own data.
I would have added its a free country, but some of y'll live
in the east.. 8-P. (Meaning anything east of the Mountain
states imho, thou we might make an exception in the case of 
Illinois)

As, for a gathering of the Tmlers of the bay. How 'bouts Sunday
June the 1st, at some Dennys around Hayward? Noonish?

Evyn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 97 00:00:28 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Marathon II

On 1997-05-14 17:58 thus spake Glenn Myers:

>BTW, does Windows 95 always mean Windows NT compatible? I recently got 
>Marathon II Powerbook and I'd like to putit on my PC running NT.

If Marathon II Powerbook means the Macintosh version, no-can-do. You 
can't run the Mac version on the PC and vice versa without some sort of 
emulation (SoftWindows or the like)

===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 97 00:00:31 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: IG Pricing Policy

On 1997-05-14 11:24 thus spake Kenneth Bearden:

>
>I've got to devote myself to only one game.  I don't have time for 
>more.  

Well, I'm not actually playing at the moment, just reading, and deciding 
on mechanics.

>But, when B5 gets some more supplements and adventures out, I can't 
>say that I haven't thought about switching games.  

I'm thinking of starting a campaign and I'm torn between a B5 style 
campaign, or a Traveller campaign. It's gonna take some soul-searching. 
:-)

>I mean, talk about identifying with the game!  All of my players 
>watch B5 too.  The show does a lot of work for the GM.

Geez, I *wish*. Those B@st@rds at BBS (TV station). Grrrrr. I know I've 
mentioned this before, but I just can't understand how crap gets on the 
air and B5 gets the shaft. Can't even get it on cable. *grrr pht!*

>Right now, Traveller's got me, but I guess we'll have to see what 
>kind of quality Chameleon puts out compared to IG's future stuff.

The production quality of _The Babylon Project_ is very good. It's 
4-colour process, perhaps a bit overdone, graphically, but it's 
beautiful. Nearly 200 (thin) glossy pages with a lot of pizazz. Very 
legible typesetting. I have found some typo's, though. :-) There's a 
table of contents, *but no index*. To me, every rpg source book 
(especially the core rules) should have one.

It's a bit more expensive than even IG's stuff, but you get what you pay 
for. It truly is a thing of beauty. I hope that future Traveller products 
can even approach the quality.

>I'm sure I'll go with the more interesting game (but I've got so much 
>invested already in Traveller.)

Tell me about it, my shelf of Traveller stuff is a testament to my 
fanhood. I'm expanding my horizons a bit, though. I'm sure I'll get EA, 
but I am going to be careful and choose new Traveller materials wisely. 
It's kinda sad, 'cuz there was a time where I'd gobble anything up 
Traveller that had DGP's name on it, but IG hasn't yet instilled that 
sense of confidence in me yet. Here's hoping Courtney and Marc can turn 
it around. <a toast is raised>

===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 02:12:49 +0000
From: Ken Roberts <deaconblue@eurekanet.com>
Subject: Re: ANCIENT Grandfather

South Carolina

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 00:56:18 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Ship economics -- fuel comsumption

> Kenneth Bearden writes:
> >Jump govenors are mentioned in the SOM, but no mention is made that 
> >these help regulate fuel use.
> 
> Eh? That's precisely what they're used for. A jump-2 ship dosen't need a
> jump governor to make a 1-parsec jump. But if it dosen't have one it pays
> for a full jump-2. Otherwise, what do you think they do?

Well, I'll copy a section from the SOM.  This is what I think they 
are used for.

I quote, verbatim.

Jump Governor:  When the command is given to jump, energy from the 
zuchai crystals is directed into the jump governor.  This device, 
which incorporates its own highly accurate computer system, is linked 
to the ship's main computer system for guidance and backup.  With 
utmost precision, the governor applies initial bursts of energy 
(about 20% of charge) in the proper sequence to the lanthanum net 
(which is incorporated in the hull of the ship), thereby "warming up" 
the grid.  At this point, if anything out of the ordinary is 
detected, it is possible to abort the jump.

The next step, the transition phase, commits the craft to the jump.  
It is impossible to abort the jump once transition has started.

The transition phase begins when the jump govenor feeds the remaining 
portion of the energy stored in the zuchai crystal array (the 
remaining 80% of the charge) to the hull grid, opening the weave of 
the desired jumpspace level.  Once this opening is made, the craft 
tumbles into the breach and leaves normal space.

Quote off.

Basically, I think the jump governor does just what this paragraph 
says--it supervises and controls the charge to the specific places in 
the lanthanum hull grid.  It does nothing with fuel.

Further, the SOM states that "the jump drive power plant consumes 
copious quantities of fuel very quickly in order to charge the energy 
sinks (typically zuchai crystals) with high-grade energy in 
preparation for the jump transition." 

 Later in the chapter, it is clear that the charge up is done before 
the acutal jump takes place--not simultaneously.  The fuel is used by 
the power plant to charge the energy sinks (the zuchai crystals), and 
this energy can be held in the sinks for up to 2 or 3 hours.

No where, in all the rules about space craft in the SOM, does it say 
that less fuel is used if a jump-2 ship decides to do a jump-1.

And, looking at my trusty copy of The Traveller's Digest #20, page 
38, and The MegaTraveller Journal #4, page 89, it states that the 
question of fuel usage was put up to Marc Miller.

In an in-depth answer, basically, what he and the editors at DGP said 
was that all of a ship's jump fuel tank will be used no matter what 
the jump being attempted.

The example they gave was, if a Jump-4 ship attempts to jump two 
parsecs, then the same amount of fuel will be used no matter what the 
jump.

Now, MTJ #4 did give an alternative to this for those GMs, like 
yourself, who want variable jump fuel.

I think I'm just going to keep it the standard way.  The reasoning in 
the SOM makes sense to me.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1323
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 15 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1324



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Surrvey
RE: First Survey error's?
Re: Captain, we're surrounded, and they're all armed with canons....
TLWH Errata
Re: Core Expedition dates
Re: Core Expedition dates
RE: First Survey error's?
Re: FS/M0 reprint
Teleportating Zhodani
Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth
Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth
Re: IG Pricing Policy, and Hey Joe!
Re: Marathon II
101 books!
Re: TLWH Errata
Re: Corps
Re: ANCIENT Grandfather
Re: TLWH Errata
Re: Contact: The Suerrat (Biology)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 18:03:33 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Surrvey

On Wed, 1 Jan 1997, Evyn gutierrez wrote:

> Solomani Core Expedition?!? Maybe Mike you are thinking of the Rim
> Missions metioned in Rats & Cats.

Thats more than likely it, since no one seems to have any idea about
Solomani Core expeditions.  So, by the Rim do you mean the rim of the
Galaxy?

Never seen, heard or read Rats+Cats - thanks.

Michael

A truce in war is like a tie in football - nobody wins.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 23:18:40 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: RE: First Survey error's?

Wed, 14 May 1997 18:56:00 -0500 (CDT), "Joseph E. Walsh"
<ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
>> 1.  Vland has far too few people to be an industrial power that matters.
>> In general, populations are small enough that I would be very concerned
>> about the ability of many of these world to maintain an industrial base.
>
>Population is the number of permanent residents of a given world.  So,
>where is Vland getting those workers?  Are they, in year 0, engaging in
>slavery and not considering slaves permanent residents (i.e., not
>citizens)?  Is there a second world in the system that has a large
>population, is a client state of Vland, and serves as the main world's
>economic base?  Do they have robots doing most of the work?  Or is there
>another explanation...?

I must say, this is the one I have a hard time with.  It just reeks
"after the fact rationalization".

I can accept that a population of 30 billion could dominate
70 billion, and basically IG is saying that "we blew
it and real law levels will have to come out later (though
they could have been a bit more forthright about it), or
that the Imperium had reason not publist all the data, but
the idea that a population that low would have been that
much an obstacle does make it.  If Vland had _that_ many
robots or slaves (or whatever), it would have been such
a salient feature it would have been the first thing
you think about when they are mentioned, not an after
thought that has been brought out yet.  I would suggest
that IG's just publish an errata that the pop digit of
Vland is wrong.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 00:28:29 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Captain, we're surrounded, and they're all armed with canons....

> Date: Wed, 14 May 97 12:26:00 PDT
> From: David Elrick <David.Elrick@ps.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: Captain, we're surrounded, and they're all armed with cano ns....

> > >1. The maximum controlled jump is jump six.

Yes.

> > >2. Jump takes one week, plus or minus one day

Not exactly, more like at TL's of 16 & below there in no known way to
deliberately vary jump duration beyond these limits without causing a
misjump.  Since superficial misjumps may take as little as 110 hours (4
days & 14 hours) or as much as 260 hours (10 days & 20 hours) it may be
theoretically possible to deliberately cause jump durations of these
lengths.

> > >3. While in jump, any interaction (including communication) with   > > >other ships in jump, or with normal space is completely impossible.

Again, not exactly.  In the Fated Voyage adventure (Challenge #46 pg
26-35 by Michael R. Mikesh) a number of people on the players ship
suddenly experience nausea, as if the ship were in a misjump, & what
seems to be a rare flight anomaly known as a jumpspace node appears. 
However it is actually a gate onto another starhip, the Lorens Ecliptic
which never came out of jump space in 1085.  Like all the best traveller
adventures the deus et machina is revealed to be a mysterious item, the
Ottem, which was stolen from a group of Chirpers from a low tech world
in Zhodani space.  Gee I wonder who could have built it.... 
    
> >
> > 4. Jump numbers correspond to the maximum number of parsecs (3.27 ly
> > ea) travelled in a single jump.

Well only if you believe that the galaxy really is flat.  If you aren't
willing to believe this you may think that the two dimensional
representation of charted space as flat may be somewhat lacking in
verisimilitude, shall we say.  I'm enough of an orthodox Traveller
believer (There is no God but Yaskodray and Mark Miller is his prophet.)
to be willing to pretend I believe the galaxy is flat for the sake of
the game however.
 
> > Parsecs are also refered to as 'hexes' in Imperial society ;-)

Are they ? Oh sure the players call them that but do the charecters ? 
IIRC the are more apt to say "jump 4 away" or something similar.

> 5. Jump drives use Lanthanum.

No, not exactly.  Almost all jump drives use lanthanum however you can
build jump drives out of barium but they will tend to fail after 10 or
20 jumps or so. The region around Lair is fairly low on Lanthanum so the
early Vargr jump drives were all made of barium.  Interestingly
lanthanum & barium are similar elements so this does not seem that
implausible.

			Lanthanum	Barium
Atomic #		57		56
average atomic mass	138.906		137.3
oxidation states	+ 3		+ 2
Electronegativity	1.10		0.89
density			6.15		3.5
melting point (c)	918		729
boiling point		3464		1898
crystal structure	hexagonal	body centered cubic

The only real difference between lanthanum & barium is that lanthanum
has 1 electron located in the 5d row & barium does not.  It is possible
that jump drives could be made out of Cerium, element 58, which seems
(based on my rusty chemistry) to be as similar to lanthanum as barium
is.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:37:46 +0100
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: TLWH Errata

"Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de> asked:
...
>> As an aside, I thought I had been given permission to correct some parts of
>> it in the first part of The Long Way Home (yup, soon to be printed by IG!),
...
>Any chance for those of us who bought the first editionm of TLWH to 
>get an update pamphlet?

During editing of TLWH for the IG version, I noticed a few errata that had,
irritatingly, slipped past me in our original version of TLWH. As soon as I
have time (i.e. June 2003) I'll post the appropriate fixes to the CORE web page.

I'm praying I haven't left any errors in the new IG adventure, but there's
quite a lot of star system data, etc. to check through, so something has no
doubt got missed...

Andy :-)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:10:44 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Core Expedition dates

- -> > Do you mean the Zhodani Core Expeditions? There were some deep rimward
- -> > Solomani exploratory missions, those were mentioned on the list a while
- -> > back.
- -> 
- -> No Solomani, I was under the impression that the Solomani also did core
- -> expeditions.  If not I can just make up a date - if so, I would like
- -> the dates.
But then it should be Solomani Rimward expeditions. Expeditions by 
the Solomani that went coreward would go straight into Imperial 
Space. Unless you call the Solomani advances into Imperial Space 
during the Rebellion the Solomani Core Expeditions (Haw, run bloody 
Impies!) 




Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 97 03:41:40 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Core Expedition dates

On 1997-05-14 19:06 thus spake Michael Solomani Mifsud:

>No Solomani, I was under the impression that the Solomani also did core
>expeditions.  If not I can just make up a date - if so, I would like
>the dates.

As far as I know, the Solomani made explorations to the *rim* (edge of 
the galaxy) *not* the core. To quote from DGP's _Solomani and Aslan_

"Our boldest exploration venture is the ongoing Perseus Project, which in 
5568 sent 17 base ships far out toward the Perseus Arm of the galaxy -- 
the next spiral arm beyond our Orion Spur's Sagittarian Arm."

"The Iouo was the last ship to return in 5624, after it explored star 
clusters on the fringe of the Auriga Arm, almost 3,000 parsecs distant. 
Three of the ships have yet to return, including the largest, Home."

In the Terran dating system, 4518 AD == Year 0.

===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:24:29 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: RE: First Survey error's?

- -> > 3.  Worlds that would have to be stopped at en route to Shudusham or Vland
- -> > do not have full data.  Shudusham has been a member since -112.
- -> 
- -> Yes, why would the Imperium not wish to publish that data?  Recall that 
- -> the data in the first half of FS is what was published for public 
- -> consumption and/or is generally known.  The stuff in the back is what the 
- -> Imperium knows (or will know once it expands far enough).  So, why 
- -> wouldn't the Imperium reveal the names and data for those worlds?  Hmmm.  
- -> Maybe the Imperium has an agenda?
However, as a DM, i would have preferred a book for the DM, that 
contained all the data *I* need, not just the data the players know...
If i need data for the players, i make those maps or lists myself!
As a DM Tool, the book is nigh to unuseable! 

Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:27:36 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: FS/M0 reprint

- -> > Will the 32 pages of material that should have been in M0/FS be available
- -> > somehow to those folks out there who have already purchased M0/FS?  If
- -> > they _should_ have been there, will they be available on the IG website as
- -> > a form of errata?  I hope so...
- -> 
- -> <chuckle>  I sometimes forget to watch myself when posting to TML.
- -> 
- -> Chalk it up to unfortunate phrasing.  It's not like the 32 pages were 
- -> planned for M0 then cut.  But they're 32 very useful pages (i.e., a good 
- -> reason to buy the new book, aside from the fact that it'll be 
- -> hardbound).  All IMHO, of course.
But *They* DO expect us to buy the new book if we want just these 
pages, don't they? I feel this is an underhanded way to treat us old-
timers, know that we 
1) Buy everything as soon as it's out, and
2) Want the complete data!
I feel reasonably cheated! 

Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:07:50 +0100
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: Teleportating Zhodani

James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org> asked:

>A Zho commando can only teleport 1 mile?  Doesn't sound as scary as I thought.

If they could (regularly) do more than that, most of the Zhodani/Imperium
fleet battles from Traveller 'history' would have been rather different,
with the Imperial fleets blowing up just a few minutes after being detected
in a system (i.e. taken out by a few tens of suicide Zhodani teleporters
carrying nukes, or with intimate knowledge of how to wire up Imperial fusion
plants to overload, or somesuch).

Frankly, it's pretty scary to me being able to teleport just *100* metres.
Imagine many of the hostage, hijack, bank job, etc. type situations, even
without considering the military implications on the ground...

Imp trooper 1: Well, Jack, we're pretty damned safe here in our hermetically
sealed bunker 50 metres underground, with nuke-proof armour around us.
Imp trooper 2: Yep. No way them pesky Zhodani can knock out *this* air
defence missile control post, eh?
Death: REALLY?
Sound of automatic weapons fire.
Faint 'blip' as Zhodani trooper teleports out again.

And again...

Zho Terrorist 1: Well, Jackski, we're pretty damned safe here in the
embassy, with our 40 armed colleagues around us.
Zho Terrorist 2: Yep. No way the pesky authorities can stop us holding the
ambassador to ransom so they have to meet our demands, eh?
Death: REALLY?
Sound of automatic weapons fire.
Faint 'blip' as Zhodani trooper teleports out again.

etc. etc.

In much the same way that Grav Belts put a whole new perspective on
Traveller games (cops chase player, player gravs into the air, cops - who
don't have the resources to equip every officer with a grav belt - curse and
shoot at him, but basically the player's got away...), so too does
teleportation!

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 97 03:41:25 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth

On 1997-05-14 20:47 thus spake Michael Solomani Mifsud:

>Hmmm, did *I* say it was wrong?  *I* dont think so. *I* said that the method
>used in Traveller does not mesh at all well with our current theoritical
>knowledge on FTL.  After doing some research *I* have found an alternate
>way and *I* will be using this system in *my* universe, but I would like
>to hear TML gearhead opinion on *my* use of an alternate method and how to
>mesh that into *my* Universe.

Go right ahead. I encourage you to do so. I tried to help by posting some 
wormhole ideas.

>Please note the liberal use of personal pronouns.  I am *not* advocating a
>change.  I never said that the Jump System in Traveller was "wrong" -
>unrealistic, unexplainable, with lots of hand waving but not "wrong". 

<blowing fuse>......Unrealistic? Unexplainable? Sounds a lot like "wrong" 
to me.

Prof: "Making a load bearing I-bar out of SNICKERS seems unrealistic.
Student: "I guess it's wrong then, I'll use *iron* bars.

Prof: "How do you explain this figure here, where 3^3=9?"
Student: "Can't explain it. It must be wrong. I meant to say 3^3=27"

<deep breath>

ANY FTL system *will* require hand-waving.

ANY system *will* be unrealistic because we have yet to discover anything 
which travels faster than light

BUT... ANY reasonable FTL system *can* be made self-consistant and 
explainable. Jumpspace or Hyperspace is one such system. Again, if you 
want to use wormholes, go right ahead. Just please, please, please, stop 
"DISSing" Traveller Jumpspace. I take it kinda personally. :)


===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 97 03:41:20 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth

On 1997-05-14 20:22 thus spake Michael Solomani Mifsud:

>I *think* the current Jump system is ugly, so In my Universe I will change
>it allowing only a minimal of hand waving for consistency (1 week jump,
>when you enter Hyperspace you are cutoff from everything and the maximum
>is 6 parsecs)

Here's the thing. Why do you say the Traveller Jump system is ugly when 
the only "official" explanation for how it works is: A) 1 week jump  B) 
Enter Hyperspace and you are cutoff from everything and C) the maximum 
jump distance is 6 parsecs.

Exactly the parameters you say you will have "handwaved" into your 
system! Oh, and there's also the misjump rules. The "What happens" is 
explained, the "How" is irrellevant. It's gravy. This is a *Game*. Until 
somebody (or even someTHING!) actually breaks the light barrier, we just 
won't know how.

At the risk of repeating what's been said, I'm not knocking your quest 
for a wormhole based system. That is admirable. Coming up with a 
plausible pseudo-scientific explaination is a good thing to do. I'm just 
attempting to refute your assertion, which you *seem* to always make, 
that the Traveller system is flawed and WOULDN'T WORK.

>> Yes I would. Because by my notions and understanding of the universe
>> I don't see why Jump Drives can not work. Of course there is more
>> plausible explanations, but the Jump Drive still works.
>
>I hate to sound rude, but your kidding right?  Let me explain to you what
>I *think* your saying - that the Jump Drives used in Trvaveller are
>consistent with our current understanding of FTL and hyperspace and you
>*cant* see why the Jump drive would not work in our Universe?

I, too, hate to sound rude, but, he kids you not.

I've *tried* to understand your point of view. But I just don't 
understand why you can't accept the *fact* that Jump Drives are perfectly 
legitimate solutions to Interstellar travel. Let me explain to YOU 
*exactly* what he's saying.

1. Hyperspace is not real.

IT IS FICTION

We have NO current understanding of Hyperspace

There is NO proof that it exists

2. FTL is, to our current knowledge, IMPOSSIBLE.

Therefore, we have NO understanding of FTL travel

3. Since we have NO understanding of HYPERSPACE nor FTL travel, Jump 
Drives CANNOT be inconsistant with reality.

Therefore, to conclude, there is NO reason why Jump Drives would NOT work.

We also have no reason to believe that ANY FTL system WILL work. But that 
would make for a boring game. That's why in the TRAVELLER universe the 
Hyperspace concept is assumed to work.

This is tiresome. Unless you can give me one (1), specific verifyable 
source refuting Assertion #1 or Assertion #2, (that is, beyond wild 
speculation, which is all Hyperspace and FTL travel is at this time), I 
have nothing more to say on this matter.

===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:52:06 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: IG Pricing Policy, and Hey Joe!

- -> > Up till now i was a fan of MM and IG rooting for them, pushing their 
- -> > product on every chance i had,  but if they pull this off,  I don't 
- -> > know anymore......
- -> 
- -> Sorry, but I've never noted you saying kind things about IG or its 
- -> products.  Your comments have ranged from very negative to neutral.  You're 
- -> entitled to your opinion, and you're entitled to express that opinion.  
- -> However, your previous posts aren't in agreement with what you have written 
- -> above.  
I did in the stores here in Germany, asking them to carry the game, 
and pushing it with new games, talking to my friends, and old 
Traveller players from earlier editions!
I really really liked M:0 (except for the map and the sector data) and 
told everyone to go get it, didn't I?

- -> > So more info, that the owners of the first edition will never have if 
- -> > they are not willing to buy the otherwise same book again! 
- -> 
- -> Okay, that's a reasonable argument.  But another reasonable argument 
- -> would be, should a company never improve its products simply because 
- -> earlier versions have been purchased?  Should Microsfot Windows have 
- -> stopped at version 1.0, simply because people had purchased it?  
No they shouldn't, but even they publish cheaper update versions. All 
that I am really asking is that IG publish a flyer or small booklet 
(like the MT errata sheets by GDW) for those of us who already bought 
the book, maybe even at the price it costs them to print that, 
although i feel that belongs to the "service department". That's all 
it takes to make me a happy customer again, a very happy customer, 
indeed!
However, if they insit that you will have to buy the new book if you 
want the data, i can't help but feel cheated!

- -> > grrrrrrrrr  Calling this data "correct"  is a joke! Correct data 
- -> > to me would be data that's Correct, not data that is plainly false 
- -> > and not true in the Traveller universe and then declared correct.
- -> 
- -> Why isn't it correct?  It's a game; having the casual LL be equal to Gov 
- -> type in the M0 period doesn't break the game at all.  It still provides a 
- -> wide range of law levels.  And, the new rules provide additional law 
- -> level detail and variation for those who desire it.
But those new rules will only be available to buyers of the new HC. 
For owners of the old books, the data will still be unuseable, and 
therefore false. In the Traveller Universe, LAW isn't GOV, maybe 
approximate, but NEVER identical on EVERY world of the Imperium.

Even if the Imperium doesn't have Law Levels yet, our games do, 
Traveller does, and IG had better too. For the DM, one of the most 
crucial informations about a world is still missing! I just don't 
like that very much! Sorry, but that's how i feel! 
- -> > Joe, i must admit that i am a bit disappointed in you that you 
- -> > support this practice, i thought that you were "one of us"!
- -> 
- -> Heh.  I'm certainly not in favor of Traveller products being of inferior 
- -> quality.  I worked hard at bringing the _Starships_ flaws to IG's 
- -> attention.  I spent a lot of my time keeping people informed for many 
- -> months, when nothing at all was coming out of IG.  Finally, I earned the 
- -> opportunity to design Traveller products (along with my compatriots in 
- -> CORE, and the other designers) and I've been working hard to create the 
- -> best products I can within the guidelines handed down by IG.
I am sorry , i got a bit carried away there, but i was really op the 
tree when i wrote that passage. I really like the product that you 
and the rest of CORE put out so far (the best IG did so far was hire 
you guys!), but the fact that you supported IG's (in my eyes just 
plainly stupid) move hit the wrong chord! I apologize!

 -> 
- -> Objectively, it still seems the best solution overall.  The 
perfect 
- -> solution would have been to fix the typos in M0, fix the data in FS, 
- -> print it up in the hardbound format, and send it for free to everyone who 
- -> bought the previous volumes.  But, IG's in business to make a profit.  
No the best idea would have been to publish the errata on the web 
page for people to download (That's what it's there for, innit?) And 
make the data available on computer readable format! Doesn't cost 
much and eases peoples minds!
- -> That means they have to keep their customers happy - which means they 
- -> couldn't do the other extreme, which would have been to completely 
- -> invalidate the previous FS data, issue a new book, and say, "tough; buy 
- -> it or you'll be lost when supplements come out that are based on the new 
- -> data."  
They didn't need to do that. They could have put the data on a CD 
(doesn't cost much to do 
nowadays or a floppy and sent it out to buyers at SASA + cost! That 
would have been better! This disk could then also be included with 
the First edition of FS. 
They could have said :"Sorry, we made a mistake, but hey, such is 
life, accept this disk with the correct data, since we can't afford 
to print it out!" That would have been totally acceptable. If people 
make mistakes they should stand by them, admit them, not try to 
explain them away. That just makes people upset!Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:24:58 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Marathon II

>> BTW, does Windows 95 always mean Windows NT compatible? I recently got
>> Marathon II Powerbook and I'd like to putit on my PC running NT.

In order for you to put the Win95 sticker on your box you have to be
runnable on NT and be entirely 32 bit. You are also required to be
compatible with OLE. These requirements have relaxed a bit since the
release of Win95 and the 32 bit requirement would actually forbid MS
putting the Win95 logo on Win95 itself as it has lots of old 16 bit code
left.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:17:19 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: 101 books!

A yes, one more thing i forgot to include in my last mail...
How much do 101 Cargoes and 101 plots cost, shipped to Germany 
together? 
Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:16:54 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Re: TLWH Errata

Andy Lilly wrote:

>During editing of TLWH for the IG version, I noticed a few errata that
had,
>irritatingly, slipped past me in our original version of TLWH. As soon as
I
>have time (i.e. June 2003) I'll post the appropriate fixes to the CORE web
page.
Good to hear that for those of us with the original books.  Of course, I'd
really been hoping for my own free copy of both volumes of the new edition
as I'd so bravely bought the BITS version.  :-)

>I'm praying

As I recall, this was the book you claimed was 'damned' in the dedication.
There's no hope for it.

>I haven't left any errors in the new IG adventure, but there's
>quite a lot of star system data, etc. to check through, so something has
no
>doubt got missed...
Please tell us the IG version is going to use your natty star system
display format?  I thought it was excellent.

tc
timothy.collinson@solent.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:32:37 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Corps

>Normally, I don't bring this up (it is a Traveller mailing list
>after all) but since we are already talking about alternate
>systems that go with the Traveller background...  I've
>been using GURPS for over a year now and it works very
>well.  A copy of my article on using GURPS with Traveller
>is available at....

Are there any attempts at adding Traveller j-drives to GURPS vehicles? If
anybody has seen work done in that regard please inform us (URL or
whatever) were to find it.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:30:33 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: ANCIENT Grandfather

>Another minor point - there is zero evidence that Grandfather gave jump to
>the races apart from the Droyn - unless you have a conspiracy theory
>going.
>
>
>>
>>
>> There are coyns portraying all six major races but none other and the coyns
>> were introduced well before any of the six invented j-drive but Droyne.
>> This implies (to me) that Yaskoydroy had something to do with making each
>> of the major races develop j-drive.

The last quote is some evidence that grandfather "gave" jump tech to the
major races. How else would he know which ones were to be major long before
they actually became major races? Especially troublesome is the fact that
Aslans are on the Coyns as they have lately been proven not to be major.

A simple explanation to this mess (I like it but others may not) could be
that grandfather has changed what the coyns depict over time - the initial
set didn't have the major races on them, this was added much more recently.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:14:18 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: TLWH Errata

- -> >> As an aside, I thought I had been given permission to correct some parts of
- -> >> it in the first part of The Long Way Home (yup, soon to be printed by IG!),
- -> ...
- -> >Any chance for those of us who bought the first editionm of TLWH to 
- -> >get an update pamphlet?
- -> 
- -> During editing of TLWH for the IG version, I noticed a few errata that had,
- -> irritatingly, slipped past me in our original version of TLWH. As soon as I
- -> have time (i.e. June 2003) I'll post the appropriate fixes to the CORE web page.
I love that! Be sure to tell me when it's up, o.k.?

- -> I'm praying I haven't left any errors in the new IG adventure, but there's
- -> quite a lot of star system data, etc. to check through, so something has no
- -> doubt got missed...
A few errors is nothing to complain about ;-)
I am only asking  that i don't have to regret buying TLWH's first 
edition (Don't get me wrong, i *adored* the book! I just hope that 
ALL the new thingies will be available to me somehow without having 
to buy the book again! I like coplete collections ;-)) 
Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:33:31 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: Contact: The Suerrat (Biology)

>From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
>Contact: The Suerrat
>Introduction & Biology

        Excellent work, Joseph. Another longly cited, not-so-minor race is
added to the Traveller Universe.

(Snip introduction)
>Biology:
>	Like almost all the minor races of humaniti, the Suerrat merely
>ring changes on the familiar theme of the human frame, mostly determined
>by differences in the homeworld.  Ilelish (Milieu 1100: 2907 E674983-A Hi
>In 204) circles a type F4 V star at a distance of 2.8 AU, giving a local
>year nearly four times the standard one (rotating every 16h29m15s, Ilelish
>experiences it as over 2,120 local days: the Suerrat term for "year"
>translates as "five-score scores [of days]").  Orbital eccentricity and
>axial tilt are minimal, yielding a climate at temperate latitudes slightly
>warmer (16 C) than Terran standard.  Land predominates slightly (55%) over
>oceans, but the planet's rapid rotation and consequently vigorous weather
>keep the continents well-watered -- vital for the health of the planet's
>well-known jungles. 

        Two notes here. First, (according to MT's Ref's Manual) the
habitable zone for an F5 V star, and hence, I assume that also for an F4 V
one, is orbit 4, which is 1.6 AU. You are putting Ilelish at orbit 5, which
would be in the Outer zone (cold and inhospitable). Of course,m at only 1.6
AU, the year will be shorter, so some minor changes would be required.

        Second, atmosphere is Standard/TAINTED. What is the taint? How does
it affect the Suerrat's breathing capabilities? I see two possibilities here:

        1) The taint is a high percentage (say 15%) of CO2 and CO, which is
explained by a different "oxygen revolution" caused by the native flora. The
jungles produce far more CO2 than the terran ones. So, most humans will find
it difficult to breathe in such an atmosphere, requiring filter masks. The
Suerrat are adapted to this, which explains some anatomic differences,
namely the noses (see below).
        2) The taint is an endemic disease, probably a descendant of the
disease that killed the Ancient colony (see below). The Suerrat are immune
to it, and it does not usually affect humans, but Droyne and Chirpers die in
a few days if they catch it. The plague does not survive for a long time in
non-affected organism, so it cannot spread offworld easily.

(Snip biology bits)
>	As mentioned earlier, the Suerrat skull and facial features are
>broader and flatter than many humans'.  The harsh sun has led to their
>eyes being somewhat deep-set, with notable brow ridges.  Eye color tends
>towards the darker shades, brown and gray.  Though the nose is more
>prominent, the sense of smell does not seem to be hyper-developed. 

        The nose is more prominent because it holds a filtering system which
allows the Suerrat to breath Ilelish tainted atmosphere...?

>	Ilelish's shorter day has produced a typical Suerrat sleep cycle
>of 6 hours sleeping followed by 10 or 11 waking: they spend a slightly
>higher fraction of their time asleep than the typical Solomani or
>Vilani, and indeed find it difficult to adapt to the standard Imperial
>24-hour cycle.  Normally they break it into two halves, each of 5 hours
>sleep and 7 hours waking, but this pleases neither the Suerrat nor, all
>too often, the Imperial manager acclimated to eight-hour shifts.  Perhaps
>as a result of this shorter day, or perhaps as a chance cultural feature,
>Suerrat tend to be far more impulsive and abrupt in their plans and
>actions.  The civil-service bureaucracy under which they have lived for
>much of their history is a deliberate and carefully-constructed attempt
>to circumvent this racial hastiness, though the planet's low law level
>also indicates the ease of arranging occasional "expediting."  The
>system has served well in general, with the obvious and drastic exception
>of the Ilelish Revolt.  Still, the dichotomy of a people ever urgent but
>often sleeping has not been lost on many a would-be comedian. 

        Not very patient, are they? A very minor comment: This does not fit
perfectly well with the Slower-than-light colonization efforts. How does a
Suerrat volunteer for a decades-long journey? Perhaps they have some degree
of stubbornness, and, once they have made a decision, they stuck to it, no
matter the consequences.
        - I am travelling to the stars.
        - But, it's a ten-years trip...
        - I said, I am travelling to the stars!

(Snip reproductive bits)
        These are nice bits, exactly the kind of stuff that makes a "human"
society more alien than human.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1324
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 15 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1325



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: ANCIENT Grandfather
Re: Max Psi Range Is?
Re: Virus
Re: Jump vs Gate/Wormhole Tech.
Re: MAJOR PROBLEM WITH QSDS/FFS
Re: 1G accel?
Re: 101 books!
Re: Ancients and jump-space
Marathon II & Win95
Re: First Survey 'Errata' and IG Pricing Policy
Re: Contact: The Suerrat (History)
The Long Way Home (errata et al)
Re: 1G accel?
RE: First Survey error's?
Re: FS/M0 reprint
Re: IG Pricing Policy, and Hey Joe!
RE: First Survey error's?
Re: 1G accel?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:52:12 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: ANCIENT Grandfather

>Sounds cool - why do the baddies hate Jump Tech?  I am creating a new
>minor race at the moment who are near the core.  Discovered by the
>Solomani Core Expeditions - IPX ;-)  which will indicate that Grandfather
>and his kids were much more powerfull then expected ... <insert dramatic
>music>

OK here follows (subject to change at the referees whim):

The baddies from the core handles the galactic powerplant (the blck hole at
the center of the galaxy) and jumpspace is actually a power grid that
channels the power generated to various parts of the galaxy. The baddies
are a created race whose purpose is to maintain the powerplant at all cost
(this is built into their genes and is unknown to them). Ships jumping
create tiny disturbances in the power distribution function of jumpspace
but when the Ancients started experimenting with jumpgates the baddies
realized they had to stop this disturbing of the "holy" powergrid. Out they
went to exterminate the civs doing the damage. The baddies have
exterminated jumpgate civs before throughout the galaxy which was what
grandfather found evidence for.

Unknown to the baddies and everybody else is the race that actually built
the powersystem an created the baddies but what they're up to etc I haven't
thought out yet.

BTW Thanks Eris, for coming up with the supercool idea that jumpspace isn't
a naturally ocurring phenomena but an artifact of some kind. I've always
disliked the canon(?) idea that jumpspace isn't understood by the Imperium
despite them using it all the time. This would be unbeliavable if jumpspace
was a natural thing but maybe not if it was created. Sort of like some
lowtech insects who find electric wiring in the forest and learn to use it
to start fires. They have a large body of knowledge on how the arcs and
wires seem to work but really no idea what the cables are or wether they're
natural or not. All goes well until some powercompany guy gets pissed and
exterminate them.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 20:51:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Max Psi Range Is?

In mail you write:

> The psi rules in T4 give 6 different range bands.  The longest extends to
> 1500m, which is less than a mile.  
>
> Is this truly the farthest that a psi can use his abilities?  
>
> A Zho commando can only teleport 1 mile?  Doesn't sound as scary as I 
> thought.

Fine. *You* get the bunker a half mile from the Zho lines!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 20:38:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Virus

In mail you write:

>         Speaking of Virus, has anybody thought of a jump-capable
> version?  I mean that the virus could hitch a ride on a starship into
> jump space, jump off and just wait in jump space for another ship to
> come by.  Jump Space is so mysterious, it might not actually break
> canon.

It assumes things that seem different from canon. Like the ability to
keep up a jump "bubble" indefinitely, or the ability to survive in jump
space without one.

Also, the odds of ever encountering another ship are rather slim. There
are a *lot* of cubic kilometers in a hex! A parsec is about 3e13
kilometers. So a cubic parsec is about 3e40 km^3. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 20:27:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jump vs Gate/Wormhole Tech.

In mail you write:

>> The few proposals for creating wormholes have them formed with the ends
>> close together. You then have to *move* the ends to where you want them.
>> But this opens up the possibility of time travel.... Read Forward's
>> book "Timemaster" for details.
>
> Nature abhores time machines.  I think Hawking's said that.  Its true that
> you can use a wormhole to make a time machine, of course not in the Dr. 
> Who sense, but a Time Machine none the less.  It is  also likely (and I
> tend to agree) that the moment a wormhole becomes a time machine, it will
> destroy itself.  This way we get no unsolvable parradox.

Well, the way Forward sees it, there's no problem with time travel, but
if it occurs, that means that creating paradoxes is impossible, as the
universe won't "allow" them. So if you are visited by a future version
of yourself, when the time comes, you *will* make the trip. 

> Is Forward's book for laymen? - I am not a physicist, so will have
> difficulty reading it if it's written for physicists.

It's an SF novel with an appendix going into the gory details,
including references to published papers on the various ideas.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:29:09 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: MAJOR PROBLEM WITH QSDS/FFS

In mail you write:

> On Wed, 14 May 1997, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> 
>> Only if they never manuever. The way you have it grappled is the
>> absolute *worst* when it comes to stress placed on the grapples. Even
>> if the ship is merely boosting, that config is bad news.
>> 
>> Take a heavy keyboard or other elongated object and try holding it
>> parallel to the floor by only grabbing the small end. Feel how much
>> force you need? Then try holding by the long edge. It'll be *much*
>> easier. 
>
> But still today we have aeroplanes with wings put on like this.
> With the advances in material strenght they have made in Traveller
> I really don't see why this configuration is so bad, for a unstreamlined
> ship of course. Hell we have ships with armor that will withstand
> a 12G missile hit, and the material is not supposed to handle this
> situation for a 6G acceleration ship. I really disagree with you.

We only do that with wings because they *have* to stick out. No sane
engineer will design such loads in if they can be avoided. And they
especially won't do it with something that is intended to *detach*.
Note that when faced with wings that have to fold (on carrier aircraft)
they make them fold at *right angles* to the stress. They fold *up*,
not *back*.

You have to realize the difference between what can "be" done, and what
is *practical*. Hulls can take missile hits because the designer
doesn't have a choice. But given the *choice* between surface area used
and using super-strong grapples, guess which will get used?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 07:23:47 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: 1G accel?

Someone wrote:

>
>A ship in normal space with 1g of blast acceleration would travel how
>fast/far?  An answer in km/hour would be cool if anyone knows of the top
>of thier heads.  Thanks.


	How long is it accelerating for?  Once you've got that answered,
hit the travel time tables in the manual, and whip out your trusty pocket
calculator...

	Unless by blast acceleration you mean that the impetus was given to
the ship by an explosion?

R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:20:36 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: 101 books!

Oops, sorry that mail should have gone to Andy directly....!
 Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:29:34 +0100
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Ancients and jump-space

At 22:19 14/05/97 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:
>
>OTOH *maybe*, jump space is simply a place somebody dumps garbage...
>
	So what you're saying is we're all crawling round Grandfather's sewage
system? ;-)

	See ya...


Bruce E J Lewis - mailto:bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk
Telephone - 0956-506527

	From Barkingside, within the London home county of Essex, E N G L A N D

Spurs Ticket Info can be found at...http://web.ftech.net/~legend/fixtures.htm

	Tottenham Hotspur - "Everybody will be singing..."
	Paxton Road Stand - Block R, Row 14, Seat 58

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 07:19:16 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Marathon II & Win95

	Problem with doing ship deckplans as M2 maps is that you need a map
editor to do it, either the homebrewed Pforte or Forge, which comes with
the (Mac) Marathon: Infinity package.  I don't know whether M2 for Win95
comes with an editor.

	I'd check out Bungie's web page, tho.  IIRC, there are M2 Mac -> M2
Win95 map conversion utilities on it.

	Even if you can't get a map editor, I would strongly recommend
buying M2 if you can get it.  It is quite simply a fantastic DOOMer.
Graphics are real good, physics were about the best there was in the genre
until Duke Nukem came out, and gameplay is a lot of fun; you're running
around breaking aliens and shooting things and recieving instructions from
a slightly demented AI with a truly twisted sense of humour, and
discovering plot elements and background to what's actually a pretty darn
good SF story.

	It's quite addictive.  Two years ago, I was playing it on a truly
obsessive basis, until I had almost reached the point of reflexively trying
to hit the spacebar with my left thumb every time I saw someone in green.
At one point, it got so bad that one day in class I slowly began dozing
off, still following the prof's lecture, until I fell completely asleep...
at which point I began dreaming, upon which the prof's line of argument
turned into a Pfhor (7" tall gray skinned three-eyed alien with a
respirator, armour, and a nasty cattleprod/spear) which immediately charged
me.

	So before it had hurdled the first row of desks I blew it all over
the blackboard with the MA-75's integral grenade launcher (in trav terms,
an ACR-10 WIGL), and promptly thought "Shit, I can't fire this thing off in
class!" and woke up, somewhat disoriented :).

	It's too bad that they don't have the first and third ones in the
series available for the PC market... aside from getting the full story, M1
felt exactly like Aliens: dark claustrophobic, hopeless, and M:I was IMHO
the hairiest of the bunch.

R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:29:31 +0100
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: Re: First Survey 'Errata' and IG Pricing Policy

At 14:44 14/05/97 -0700, Scott Ellsworth wrote:
>From the sound of things, IG is committed to the FS data as it is.  This is
>not what I would like, but I can always change the numbers I do not like in
>my own game.  Taking a firm stand is better than being wishy washy, even
>when I would prefer you to have made a different firm stand.
>
>I cannot use the FS data as printed, and so I really, really think you
>should release the data in a machine readable form, if only to those who
>have already given you money for it in the form of buying FS.  IG clearly

	This must be the best solution, and IG could put it on game magazine cover
disks as well for people who are not on the net, or can not download it for
whatever reason.

	I have bought the first seven books, I think it is, except Aliens Archive.
The core rules' errors now seem minor in comparison to some other releases.
The data in First Survey is almost useless, and I intend rolling up my own
starmaps. The Core sector map in Milieu 0 is equally worthless, although
almost everything else in there is excellent. And the starship deckplans in
Starships are a disgrace; most of us could do better.

	Only Emporer's Arsen*l and Central Supply Catalogue seems to be without
major structural flaws, as far as I know. I think EA is well structured,
there are nice pics of the weapons in action, they are sorted by tech
level, and there is an excellent summary of everything at the back of the
book. CSC has a lot of detail and decent background for a lot of the
equipment. Oh, and I bought the referee's screen thing which I like quite a
lot actually!

	On top of this, I was due to start a campaign last night, my first real
Traveller playing in eight years, apart from meeting and playing a game
with Andy Lilly at a games convention last Saturday ;-) Hi Andy! Anyway
right, last night, about half an hour before we were to trek off to the
venue one of my players phoned up ill with the 'flu, so we've had to put it
off till next week. Was I pissed off or what, espech after months of
preparation.

	However, I may use that time to design some alternative _usable_ starmaps
that my players can adventure in, somewheres that have low government level
planets with high law levels, for example, democracy (2) with strict gun
control (7 or 8 upwards); apparently impossible in the T4 setting.

	See ya...


Bruce E J Lewis - mailto:bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk
Telephone - 0956-506527

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:27:37 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: Contact: The Suerrat (History)

>From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
>Contact: The Suerrat
>History -- Beginnings and Ziru Sirka
(Snip)
>for the Suerrat themselves, the Ancients there were killed not by the
>typical planet-wracking catastrophe of asteroid bombardment or other heavy
>weapons fire, but, as far as evidence indicates, a virulent plague which
>rapidly snuffed out all Ancient personnel.  The fast-growing jungle did

        Is a descendant of this plague what causes the taint in Ilelish
tainted atmosphere...? Something like the dormant plagues in Zdhant and its
satellite, that caused extinction of the Chirpers when the Zhodani first
reached the satellite?

(Snip prehistory)
>ruling Council of All Trees (a sort of United Nations for the then
>medieval-level Suerrat) forced a move of most such operations outside the
>jungles and surrounding fields, ultimately to the planet's temperate
>regions.  Rapidly the equatorial regions of the planet became the seat of
>the race's wealthy capitalists and governmental institutions, while the
>"middle class" gravitated to the more economically (if not climatically) 
>hospitable temperate and even arctic zones.

        Do you mean "inhospitable"? The temperate zones out of the jungle
are not very comfortable by Suerrat standards, right? Anyway, I envision the
Suerrat "colonization" of new areas as a "jungleformation" process... the
more resistant trees being seeded all around, in a desperate attempt to
create a new jungle. This would make the Suerrat science more biological
than tehcnical...

>	As the planet's demographic patterns shifted and the comfortable
>jungles emptied out (apart from the occasional invasion or other uprooting
>of government), many of the remaining idle rich began to practice their
>hobbies, or employ others to practice hobbies for them.  Many sciences
>began to catch up with the industry the impulsive Suerrat had produced,
>and the science of archaeology found its first opportunities in the
>now-open original homelands of the race.  Imagine their surprise when

        This creates a tradition of "renacentist man", something like a
nobility with a dilettante interest in the sciences. Modern Suerrat nobles
could keep a tradition of serving some terms as Scholars, contrary to, for
example, some Solomani traditions of nobles serving in the Navy.

(Snip)
>same equatorial lands soon spawned rocketports, and probes and manned
>expeditions soon investigated Ilelish's satellites and neighbors in the
>system.  The arboreal Ilelish adapted well to low- and zero-gee
>operations, and soon much industry had moved off-planet. 

        The first time industry moved, out of the equatorial jungles, a
massive population movement followed. Did it occured again when industry
moved off-planet?

>And so, in -8939 Imperial, the first slower-than-light probe departed for
>the Ullaresh system, one parsec away.  Decades later word came that it had
>found a habitable planet, and the race was on.  Generation ships departed,
>forced by their very size to travel slower than the probes, to carry eager
>colonists to the new worlds.  By -8600 Imperial the Suerrat had colonized
>every habitable planet within five parsecs, and Suerrat industries and

        Another possibility to explain the not-very-patient Suerrat ("eager
colonists") decades-long trips to the stars would be to assume that they
used low-berths, but it has already been stated (Imperial Encyclopedia,
IIRC), that they relied indeed in generation ships. So, the question is: Why
didn't they use Low Berth? Maybe a natural dislike about being "freezed"?
For the Suerrat, who originated in warm jungles, the "hell" would be a very
cold place...

>Vilani Contact, and Conquest:
(Snip)
>sector.  In short order, in -8564, Vilani merchant/scouts contacted the
>small interstellar polity held by the Suerrat.  The Vilani had encountered
>the Geonee some centuries earlier, but a meeting with yet another human
>race with interstellar holdings still startled them.  They were
>simultaneously astonished and relieved to find that this expansion had
>taken place wholly without jump drive.  Eventually, of course, some Vilani
>merchant sold the Suerrat the plans for the jump-1 drive, and the next era
>of Suerrat expansion began. 

        At that time, the Vilani kept the Jump Drive secret fairly well. I
was not until the last days of the Ziru Sirka that they started to lose
control of tehcnology in the borders of the Empire... better keep the
Suerrat obtaining of the Jump technology as a not-very-clear issue... maybe
some far-range Geonee merchants gave them the technology, they were the only
other starfaring race with Jump Drive at that time.

(snip)
>what are now Gushemege and Dagudashag sectors.  Vilani scouts and
>merchants from Sharurshid, particularly those engaged in lucrative trade
>with the Geonee and the other minor races that bureau had discovered, ran
>trailing of the Suerrat worlds into Zarushagar.  But Ilelish and Verge
>sectors, limited as they were by the Great Rift, and much of the three
>Vilani sectors the bureaux had not yet developed, were the Suerrat
>playground.

        Surely the Suerrat encountered some minor races in their
playground... What was their attitude towards them?

>	Sharurshid's rampant expansion galled some of the more ambitious
>Naasirka corporate lords, and they began to feed hemmed in: to trailing by
>that companionable competitor, to coreward by the Vilani home worlds, to
>spinward by the trackless Great Rift... and to rimward by the Suerrat
>dominion.  Conflicts erupted between the two sides over trading rights,
>technology patents, allegations of piracy, and, finally, the Suerrat
>desire to obtain the new jump-2 drive used by Vilani military and
>government vessels.  Naasirka whole-heartedly supported the initiation of
>the Consolidation Wars in -5400, and Vilani forces steam-rollered into
>Suerrat space.  The initial war lasted for two centuries, with regular
>flare-ups throughout the Consolidation Wars period (which lasted until
>- -4045). 

        Very nice bit. Nevertheless, the three corporations supported
whole-heartedly the Consolidation Wars... in Massilia, Sharurshid was
desperately needing a major move against the Geonee competition.

>	Naasirka made up for lost time and space with a vengeance: the
(Snip)
>Sharurshid, perhaps, that preserved the Suerrat people from utter
>extinction.  In -5013, that bureau insisted on, and received, an
>extension of the bureaux-neutral space that gave all three gov-
>ernment-corporations access to lucrative areas of the proto-Ziru-Sirka
(Snip)
>In return, to allow for Naasirka expansion, Sharurshid gave up areas of space
>around Mika (Antares) and in rimward Mikadira (Old Expanses), in the
>so-called "Bright Star Exchange".  [See the map on p. 11 of "Vilani &
>Vargr" to see the resulting distributions of space.]  Of course, the

        You have been after explaining that map for a long time, right? This
story meshes well with known Ziru Sirka history.

>	The Suerrat suffered under the Vilani yoke for over 1500 years. 
(Snip)
>Vilani overseers, obsessed as ever on efficiency, worked their factories
>on their own 32-hour day with its own set of incompatibilities to the
>Suerrat circadian rhythm.  The Vilani caste system grated, too, on the
>traditionally free-wheeling Suerrat.  The Vilani stereotype of the "lazy
>Suerrat" dates largely from the friction of this period.  Even as the

        So, probably the Naasirka masters sponsored widespread establishment
of Vilani and other races colonies even in the traditional Suerrat
playground, to build up a better labour force.

>Ziru Sirka decayed into civil wars and provincial revolts, control over
>the Suerrat remained rigid: with the border poised on the very edge of the
>Great Rift, no worlds remained beyond to support insurrections.
>	And then, in -2220, the Solomani arrived.

        ...and were welcomed as liberators. Where have I read this before..? ;-)

        Very good write-up, in summary. Keep it going!
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:12:22 +0100
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: The Long Way Home (errata et al)

Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk asked (about THE LONG WAY HOME):

>Please tell us the IG version is going to use your natty star system
>display format?  I thought it was excellent.

I've passed all the necessary data and diagrams to IG and, to my knowledge,
it should all be in there. It was primarily these diagrams which had a few
errors in them in the original version, occasionally having somehow missed
out the primary planet!

I shall have to check the (c) situation with regard to which errata I can
put on our web site.


"Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de> then said:

>I am only asking  that i don't have to regret buying TLWH's first 
>edition (Don't get me wrong, i *adored* the book! I just hope that 
>ALL the new thingies will be available to me somehow without having 
>to buy the book again! I like coplete collections ;-)) 

We can make errata for our TLWH available on our web site, but I shall have
to check the stuff for the IG version. Put simply, there were sections we
designed for the original TLWH which didn't fit into the 100 pages, but
which are being integrated into the two 64 page books for IG ("The Long Way
Home" and "Gateway"). These additions are obviously our own work, created
outside of IG's brief, and thus might in some form appear on the web page,
however we have to respect the very restrictive contracts IG places upon us
once they buy our work.

Basically, I'll sort out with Tim Brown and Marc Miller what is allowed -
they're both very reasonable guys and I'm sure will allow us some leeway on
this issue for our original customers, provided we don't compromise their IG
sales.

Andy :-)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 05:27:30 -0700
From: Dave Strebe <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: 1G accel?

Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
> 
> Someone wrote:
> 
> >
> >A ship in normal space with 1g of blast acceleration would travel how
> >fast/far?  An answer in km/hour would be cool if anyone knows of the top
> >of thier heads.  Thanks.
> 
>         How long is it accelerating for?  Once you've got that answered,
> hit the travel time tables in the manual, and whip out your trusty pocket
> calculator...
> 
>         Unless by blast acceleration you mean that the impetus was given to
> the ship by an explosion?
> 
> R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

Hate to butt in but also what is the max velocity a ship could obtain 
using 1G accel. and assuming unlimited time and fuel? Is there an 
upper limit dictated by the ship's strucure, or can it keep accel. at
1G, 2G, 3G wahtever depending on the manuver drive and limited by
the speed of light?
Just curious.
Dave

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:10:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: RE: First Survey error's?

On Thu, 15 May 1997, Volker A. Greimann wrote:

> However, as a DM, i would have preferred a book for the DM, that 
> contained all the data *I* need, not just the data the players know...
> If i need data for the players, i make those maps or lists myself!
> As a DM Tool, the book is nigh to unuseable! 

FS has complete data for referee's, and partial data for players.  The 
only "full data" item missing is maps with every world marked.  So, what 
you're saying is that you would have preferred that FS contain full maps 
instead of (or in addition to) the partial maps already in there?  


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh  |  Game Designer for Marc Miller's Traveller
_________________|  Atari 1200XL and Apple IIGS User and Programmer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:14:17 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: FS/M0 reprint

On Thu, 15 May 1997, Volker A. Greimann wrote:

> But *They* DO expect us to buy the new book if we want just these 
> pages, don't they? I feel this is an underhanded way to treat us old-
> timers, know that we 
> 1) Buy everything as soon as it's out, and
> 2) Want the complete data!

:)  Well, if we're all known for buying every item that has the word 
"Traveller" on it, I guess it would be difficult not to give in to 
temptation and take advantage of that situation.  (I'm not saying IG did 
that; god, I hate always having to be so darned careful about such 
misunderstandings...can't even joke around without worrying!)


> I feel reasonably cheated! 

Well, at least you're not feeling UNreasonably cheated. That would be 
much worse. =)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh  |  Game Designer for Marc Miller's Traveller
_________________|  Atari 1200XL and Apple IIGS User and Programmer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:25:34 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: IG Pricing Policy, and Hey Joe!

On Thu, 15 May 1997, Volker A. Greimann wrote:

> I really really liked M:0 (except for the map and the sector data) and 
> told everyone to go get it, didn't I?

Ah, you're right, I had forgotten that.  I apologize.


> But those new rules will only be available to buyers of the new HC. 
> For owners of the old books, the data will still be unuseable, and 
> therefore false. In the Traveller Universe, LAW isn't GOV, maybe 
> approximate, but NEVER identical on EVERY world of the Imperium.

I don't know all the circumstances at IG or in the RPG marketplace, but 
it seems that a reasonable course to pursue would be to handle it like 
the old High Guard 2nd Ed. - put the additional material in JTAS, spread 
out over three issues.  That would work for the customers, I'll bet, and 
it shouldn't be much of a hardship for IG.  But, again, I probably don't 
know what I'm talking about.


> I am sorry , i got a bit carried away there, but i was really op the 
> tree when i wrote that passage. I really like the product that you 
> and the rest of CORE put out so far (the best IG did so far was hire 
> you guys!), but the fact that you supported IG's (in my eyes just 
> plainly stupid) move hit the wrong chord! I apologize!

Understandable.  Don't worry about it!  


> No the best idea would have been to publish the errata on the web 
> page for people to download (That's what it's there for, innit?) And 
> make the data available on computer readable format! Doesn't cost 
> much and eases peoples minds!

I thought about that last night, and the conclusion I came to was that 
would be a non-optimal solution.  They could put the full data up there 
(the world name and UWP for each world, with a corrected Law Level for 
each world (except good ol' Sylea - anyone else note that Sylea is the 
only world in FS that has a law level that differs from its government 
type?)), but that would deter people from buying First Survey, Second 
Edition (a hypothetical volume having the corrected data in it).  Or, 
they could just put the world name and law level on the web site, but 
that would be very awkward to use, requiring users to flip back and forth 
between First Survey and the data downloaded from the web site.

I think the JTAS route is best.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh  |  Game Designer for Marc Miller's Traveller
_________________|  Atari 1200XL and Apple IIGS User and Programmer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 07:59:37 -0600 (MDT)
From: "P. ENGEBOS" <pengebos@NMSU.Edu>
Subject: RE: First Survey error's?

On Thu, 15 May 1997, Joseph E. Walsh wrote:

> On Thu, 15 May 1997, Volker A. Greimann wrote:
> 
> > However, as a DM, i would have preferred a book for the DM, that 
> > contained all the data *I* need, not just the data the players know...
> > If i need data for the players, i make those maps or lists myself!
> > As a DM Tool, the book is nigh to unuseable! 
> 
> FS has complete data for referee's, and partial data for players.  The 
> only "full data" item missing is maps with every world marked.  So, what 
> you're saying is that you would have preferred that FS contain full maps 
> instead of (or in addition to) the partial maps already in there?  

I personally would have prefferred that it cover a smaller area and give
more details on individual worlds and/or subsectors.

Peter Engebos				<pengebos@nmsu.edu>
T'Sarith, Lord deGaalth			<tsarith@io.com>
		http://web.nmsu.edu/~pengebos/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:13:41 -0400
From: Nikodemus <tauman@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: 1G accel?

Dave Strebe wrote:
> 
> Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
> >
> > Someone wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >A ship in normal space with 1g of blast acceleration would travel how
> > >fast/far?  An answer in km/hour would be cool if anyone knows of the top
> > >of thier heads.  Thanks.
> >
> >         How long is it accelerating for?  Once you've got that answered,
> > hit the travel time tables in the manual, and whip out your trusty pocket
> > calculator...
> >
> >         Unless by blast acceleration you mean that the impetus was given to
> > the ship by an explosion?
> >
> > R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
> 
> Hate to butt in but also what is the max velocity a ship could obtain
> using 1G accel. and assuming unlimited time and fuel? Is there an
> upper limit dictated by the ship's strucure, or can it keep accel. at
> 1G, 2G, 3G wahtever depending on the manuver drive and limited by
> the speed of light?
> Just curious.
> Dave

Well, according to Newtonian physics, there is no limit.  However, we
all know (thanks to general relativity) that this is wrong.  If we
assume a constant fuel burn (and thrust), then as the ship approaches
the speed of light, the acceleration will decrease (due to the relative
increase in mass from relativity).  So acceleration will be zero at the
same moment we reach the speed of light (at time equals infinity).

By definition, the velocity doesn't matter (as far as stress on the 
hull), it's only the acceleration.  So, if 1G at .1% the speed of light
doesn't stress the hull, neither will 1G at 85% of lightspeed.

- -/tauman

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1325
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 15 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1326



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: M0/FS data
Re: Corps
Re: Corps
Re: 1G accel?
Solomani Core Expeditions
1G accel?
Traveller Chat
Re: IG Pricing Policy
First Survey 'Errata' and IG Pricing Policy
Re: FS
Re: Teleportating Zhodani
Re: ancient Grandfather
Ancients, baddies, grandfather, and jump space
Re: Ancients and jump-space
HIWG document 142.13 updated
Re: 1G accel?
Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth
Psionic Mistake?
Re: Ancients and jump-space
RE: First Survey error's?
Re: BRTC/CORPS - Where?
Re: IG Pricing Policy
Ships in Port?
"Errata" Policies of (Other) Companies
Re: 1G accel?
"Baddies from Core," Jumpspace, Evil SuperTech Horrors...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:05:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Re: M0/FS data

Greetings,

Thought I would put another log on this fire :)

I have M0, but not FS.  I got it mainly for the background data.  Joe you 
and the guys, and gals, did a kickin' job!  But when I looked up certain 
worlds like Keshi and Fornol I was confused.  I was trying to think what the 
heck happened to the Chanestin Kingdom on Keshi, I mean Low pop and low 
tech, all I can think of is the Imperials got realy pissed and hammered the 
planet with nukes or Mesons in the latter days of the war.  And whats this 
about Fornol, which had a Premier and everything that got killed by a robot 
and brought up the Shudusham Concords, having a pop of 0 and a tech of 1?

I am currently inputting the M0 core sector data into Gal2.1 editing major 
worlds as I see fit.  I will probably NEVER get FS, but I might get the Year 
Zero Background Hardcover.  Till then I have decided to use the sectors that 
are "Free DM's Playing Grounds" for putting my home stuff into them. 
 Zarushagar, Fornast, and Delphi.  As the homeworlds for the aliens in Alien 
Archive cannot be found, I have put them into these 'free' sectors untill 
such time as their homeworlds are published, if ever.

To keep some degree of integrety to the whole thing I have not haphazardly 
placed stars in these free sectors, Joe Heck's Missouri Archives have year 
1100 maps which have worlds in the locations that were in Atlas of the 
Imperium, which I consider to be of major canon.  Mostly due to travel 
ability, and strategic importance.

Using these maps, I have used a system similar to TNE's collapse rules or 
MT's Hard times, in attempt to put these worlds 'back in time'.  If anyone 
wants the rules I am working on let me know and I'll e-mail them to you.

Flame retardant suit on
Hydroshooter-1000 active.
:)

Commander X

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:21:11 -0600 (MDT)
From: "P. ENGEBOS" <pengebos@NMSU.Edu>
Subject: Re: Corps

On Thu, 15 May 1997, Anders Backman wrote:

> Are there any attempts at adding Traveller j-drives to GURPS vehicles? If
> anybody has seen work done in that regard please inform us (URL or
> whatever) were to find it.

There was an attempt about a year ago on the Gurps Mailing list. There was
a design or two done (I remember the Gazelle got ported over). I have the
data, I just haven't gotten around to getting HTML-ized and up on my
webpage yet.  I will try to get it up next week (after finals are over).

Peter Engebos				<pengebos@nmsu.edu>
T'Sarith, Lord deGaalth			<tsarith@io.com>
		http://web.nmsu.edu/~pengebos/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:16:57 -0600 (MDT)
From: "P. ENGEBOS" <pengebos@NMSU.Edu>
Subject: Re: Corps

On Wed, 14 May 1997, David P. Summers wrote:

> Normally, I don't bring this up (it is a Traveller mailing list
> after all) but since we are already talking about alternate
> systems that go with the Traveller background...  I've
> been using GURPS for over a year now and it works very
> well.  A copy of my article on using GURPS with Traveller
> is available at....
> http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/articles/traveller.html
> ftp://ftp.io.com/pub/GURPSnet/Worlds/Traveller/TravellerII.txt
> and ftp.mpgn.com (I don't have the URL on me)

I know there are at least two web pages devoted to GURPS:TRAVELLER games,
because I am running one.

Peter Engebos				<pengebos@nmsu.edu>
T'Sarith, Lord deGaalth			<tsarith@io.com>
		http://web.nmsu.edu/~pengebos/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:52:18 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: 1G accel?

 
> Hate to butt in but also what is the max velocity a ship could obtain 
> using 1G accel. and assuming unlimited time and fuel? Is there an 
> upper limit dictated by the ship's strucure, or can it keep accel. at
> 1G, 2G, 3G wahtever depending on the manuver drive and limited by
> the speed of light?

The only limits are light speed, c, and how much risk you want to
take with dust motes.

Get going to a couple thousand km/s and a sand grain will knock out
your ship like you'd been hit by a big PAW.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 97 10:51:41 -0400
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: Solomani Core Expeditions

>No Solomani, I was under the impression that the Solomani also did core
>expeditions.  If not I can just make up a date - if so, I would like
>the dates.

The Solomani mounted RIM expeditions. It is mentioned in Rats and Cats.  
Some of the ships still haven't returned in 1120.

Lewis Roberts
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Q:What did the baby porcupine say when it backed into a cactus?
A:Is that you Mommy?     

lewis@chara.gsu.edu
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:12:57 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: 1G accel?

>Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:07:52 +1000 (EST)
>From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>

>A ship in normal space with 1g of blast acceleration would travel how
>fast/far?  An answer in km/hour would be cool if anyone knows of the top
>of thier heads.  Thanks.

Grab a copy of the Starflight Handbook for some really groovy data on this
and related topics.

1G = 9.81 meters/second squared.

V = v0 + a t
d = d0 + v0 t + 0.5 a t^2.

Thus, after one hour, starting with zero velocity, at d = 0, we have gone
3600 seconds, and so have a velocity of 9.8*3600 = 35280 m/s (35 km/s), and
have gone 63,504,000 meters.  Since you will likely want to stop at your
destination, you should stop midway, and decelerate.  A two hour trip would
take you some 127,000 km.

Beware, if you are not using magic thrusters, you suddenly need to worry
about how much fuel you are using, and the lower tech the drive, the more
you need to worry.

Scott

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:35:11 +0000
From: suzd@goodnet.com
Subject: Traveller Chat

Greetings!

Don't forget tonight is Traveller night on IRC.  We'll be discussing 
realism vs. playability and I'd love to see a full house!

7pm *Pacific* time is the official start.  We'll be on IG's IRC 
server, www.imperiumgames.com, port 6665 or 6666.

See you there!

Suz

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 03:26:57 +1000
From: dadams <dadams@tig.com.au>
Subject: Re: IG Pricing Policy

Joseph E. Walsh wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 13 May 1997, SD Mooney wrote:
> 
> > Do I feel like I'm being milked for profits? Yep.
> 
> Every once in a while, I buy something brand new and feel completely good
> about it, with no concerns about the item having been overpriced.  But it's
> only once in a while...
> 
The big problem is for us people OS. Take Australia for exaple. We look
at the american price, then double it. Concidereing that the exchange
rate sits at A$0.74 for a US$1, this can be anoying.

Darryl

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:05:12 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: First Survey 'Errata' and IG Pricing Policy

>Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 20:06:49 -0500 (CDT)
>From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>

>Right.  I'm sure we could all come up with different approaches, but IG 
>came up with one that is workable and they've implemented it. Now we 
>figure out how to make it work for us. :)

That is why we get paid the big bucks :)

(While I do not claim to be happy with the resolution on FS from IG thus
far, this is probably sufficient complaints by me in this forum, until they
have a chance to consider their options and react.  :) )

>As for the FS data being unusable, you're welcome to come up with your 
>own data and/or fix (as I mentioned in a previous post, I'd already 
>decided long ago - even before FS came out - to use my own data, because 
>I like to have a universe that fits my ideas, rather than vice versa), 
>but in a few other posts I started the process of coming up with 
>explanations for the anomalies.  It's at least a fun excercise; take a 
>look, and add your own if you feel like it.

One plus side to this - I am creating a world generation system that is
substantially similar to the MT one in descriptive numbers, but that has
different probabilities.  I have grabbed some data from various references
on human population at various times, and am starting to work out minimum
and maximum populations at each tech level.  This was motivation to get it
working.

I do not want to toss the MT universe, but I do want it to hold together
according to logic and history.  Since each person has a different view of
the latter, and applies the former to different spots, we get different
universes.  Hopefully, they will still be close enough for government work.

When I am done, I will post it, but I expect that is will be only minor
modifications on the usual, such as

TL	Min POP	Max POP
1	~ 10^6		~ 10^7
9	~ 10^8		~ 10^10
12	~ 10^9		~ 10^11

Note: min pop is that population which is within easy travel and
communication.  For a TL9+ culture, it is the worlds within one or two
jumps.  Max pop is for an earthlike planet.

I will post better estimates based on surface area, etc., as soon as I get
a chance.

To be fair...

>When I sign the contract, I'm 
>selling all rights to my work to IG, including derivative rights and 
>everything else.

and

>Again, to receive a definitive answer, contact IG directly.  Present your 
>argument logically and reasonably (as you've done in your post), and let 
>us know what happens.

Quite right, and I will give it a try.  My apologies for blurring the
distinction between you and IG.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:38:00 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: FS

Joe writes
>As for why the UWP's published in the IG product first Survey still 
>contain Law Levels (rather than leaving it blank), it may have been done 
>for a couple of reasons: 1) In order to maintain consistency with other 
>Survey-style products to be produced in the future, as well as the 
>format given in the T4 book and the T4 Game screen, while still 
>providing a unique "feel" to Milieu 0, and 2) to provide Referee's with a 
>guideline LL for use in casual situations (whereas the LL extension to 
>the UWP would be for use in more in-depth scenarios).

You *can't* be serious. Did someone at IG actually try and persuade you
this was the case?

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:46:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: Teleportating Zhodani

Andy Lilly responded to 
James Garriss who asked:

>>A Zho commando can only teleport 1 mile?  Doesn't sound as scary as I
thought.
>
>If they could (regularly) do more than that, most of the Zhodani/Imperium
>fleet battles from Traveller 'history' would have been rather different,
>with the Imperial fleets blowing up just a few minutes after being detected
>in a system (i.e. taken out by a few tens of suicide Zhodani teleporters
>carrying nukes, or with intimate knowledge of how to wire up Imperial fusion
>plants to overload, or somesuch).
>
>Frankly, it's pretty scary to me being able to teleport just *100* metres.
>Imagine many of the hostage, hijack, bank job, etc. type situations, even
>without considering the military implications on the ground...

We gave considerable thought to this subject, although my involvement in the
process was slanted towards military applications (see my organizations of
the Zhodani military forces in JTAS 9 I think...and in the TNE version of
Striker).

Telekinesis has many uses as well. Combined with clairvoyance, it can make
quite a potent weapon. Just before attacking a strongpoint, for example, your
Scrambler (as we called clairvoyant telekenitic talented individuals) does a
quick recce and commences his magic: Imagine yourself sitting in a foxhole,
when your weapon is set to full auto and goes off, all of the pins fall from
the grenades on your belt, and your anti-glare visor changes from the
"normal" setting to the "totally opaque" setting...

Loren Wiseman 

------------------------------

Date: 15 May 97 13:17:08 EDT
From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Subject: Re: ancient Grandfather

this premise sounds soothingly like a variation on the situation in the
Hyperion books...I'm sure the masses will pitch a tizzy, but I like it!

- -j

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:13:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: matth@homer.njit.edu (Matthew Harelick)
Subject: Ancients, baddies, grandfather, and jump space

Hi: 

I only caught the end of this story so can the authors mail me the whole
thing at matth@time.njit.edu

Neat story , sorry I missed most of it. 

Matthew


- -- 
Matthew Harelick  matth@homer.njit.edu	http://hertz.njit.edu/~msh9848
Real-Time Computing Lab		       http://rtlab12.njit.edu/welcome.html
New Jersey Institute of Technology     http://www.njit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:48:27 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Ancients and jump-space

> At 22:19 14/05/97 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:
> >
> >OTOH *maybe*, jump space is simply a place somebody dumps garbage...
> >
> 	So what you're saying is we're all crawling round Grandfather's sewage
> system? ;-)

I've been seeing some really cool ideas about jump space lately.

I like this stuff.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 17:53:36 GMT
From: starwolf@sn.no (StarWolf)
Subject: HIWG document 142.13 updated

As I detected an error in my laser designs in HIWG document 142.13 I
had to correct them and put a new updated version of the document into
the HIWG ftp archive.

Ypu'll find the document at
ftp.sn.no/public/user/starwolf/Traveller/HIWG-docs/

The file 0142_13.zip contains both a Word 6.0 and RTF format.


- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Myhre                 |"Never worry about theory as long as the=20
http://home.sn.no/~starwolf | machinery does what it's supposed to do."
Universal Internet          |
            Number: 127772  |                  -- R. A. Heinlein

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:48:28 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: 1G accel?

> Hate to butt in but also what is the max velocity a ship could obtain 
> using 1G accel. and assuming unlimited time and fuel? Is there an 
> upper limit dictated by the ship's strucure, or can it keep accel. at
> 1G, 2G, 3G wahtever depending on the manuver drive and limited by
> the speed of light?
> Just curious.
> Dave

Good question, Dave.  I've often wondered this myself.  Let's see 
what the Traveller physicist on this list say about it.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:48:28 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth

> BUT... ANY reasonable FTL system *can* be made self-consistant and 
> explainable. Jumpspace or Hyperspace is one such system. Again, if you 
> want to use wormholes, go right ahead. Just please, please, please, stop 
> "DISSing" Traveller Jumpspace. I take it kinda personally. :)

Hey man.  You better watch it.  Glenn is our resident TML Jumpspace 
guru, and he'll eat you alive with his knowledge of Traveller 
jumpspace.

Don't diss the J-Man.  :)

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:48:26 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Psionic Mistake?

I just noticed a problem on page 123 of Book 1.  At least, I think it 
is a problem.

There, under Training, it states that psionic training takes 4 years!

Surely, this is a miss-print.  I can't imagine implementing this for 
characters in an on-going campaign.  If this were true, the only 
feasible way for a character to have psionics is to develop that 
during character generation.

In CT, this same line read 4 months, so I take it that the "years" is 
a typo.  Right?

Kenneth.

PS  As an aside, I also noticed that the cost for an examination 
is Cr15,000 instead of the original Cr5,000, but I have no problem 
with this.  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:48:29 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Ancients and jump-space

> OTOH *maybe*, jump space is simply a place somebody dumps garbage...

OK, whacky game idea--one that I'm sure that I will never implement.

But, if you want an apocalypse in your game...

There are sudden disturbances in space.  Whole planets and solar 
systems are colliding.

Mass destruction ensues  (No, this is not TNE).

The characters are survivors, and they realize that the planets, and 
even space itself, are really just atoms making up another universe, 
and in that universe, they've just discovered how to split the atom.

In other words, we're all just undicovered atomic particles.  

TRAVELLER:  THE MACROVERSE

How does that make you feel?  8->

Kenneth.

PS  It makes me feel small.  "I'm getting tiny--soooo tiny."


PPS  No, I'm not doing drugs tonight--just thinking outloud.  Eris 
has that heretic effect on me.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:57:54 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: RE: First Survey error's?

> I personally would have prefferred that it cover a smaller area and give
> more details on individual worlds and/or subsectors.

Me too.  And, they shouldn't have called it First Survey.  What are 
they going to call the real First Survey when they get to it?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 97 13:55:00 PDT
From: Glenn Myers <gem188@ansyspo.ansys.com>
Subject: Re: BRTC/CORPS - Where?

Hi All,

I downloaded the nutshell edition of CORPS but found that I had to have the 
latest Acrobat Reader to view or print it.  Version 2.1 won't cut it.

I really like the BTRC product. I guess you could say that Greg Porter has 
produced a fine looking CORPS.

heh, heh, hee, hee

OK, I'll shut up now.

Glenn

_____________________________________________________
Glenn E. Myers
ANSYS Inc.                Email: glenn.myers@ansys.com
275 Technology Drive      Phone: (412) 514-2913
Canonsburg, PA 15317      Fax:   (412) 514-3118
_____________________________________________________



 ----------
From: owner-traveller
To: 'traveller@MPGN.COM'
Subject: Re: BRTC/CORPS - Where?
Date: Wednesday, May 14, 1997 7:38AM

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Andy Long wrote:

> >>>>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From:        Glenn Hoppe [SMTP:starcity@eagle.wbm.ca]
> >Sent:        Wednesday, May 14, 1997 4:10 AM
> >Neat! I downloaded Mr. Porters CORPS in a nutshell from the BRTC website
> >and found his combat system intriguing... especially since I also
> >recently purchased 3G3. I'm disappointed in the "coarseness" of Traveller 

> >weaponry. I mean, with damage ratings maxing out at 3, and very few range 

> >bands, that doesn't leave much room for variety.
> >[andy long]  <<<<
> >
> >Where can I find them, please?

The CORPS nutshell is at the BTRC website:
        http://members.aol.com/btrc/

Peter Engebos                           <pengebos@nmsu.edu>
T'Sarith, Lord deGaalth                 <tsarith@io.com>
                http://web.nmsu.edu/~pengebos/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:48:30 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: IG Pricing Policy

> >I'm sure I'll go with the more interesting game (but I've got so much 
> >invested already in Traveller.)
> 
> Tell me about it, my shelf of Traveller stuff is a testament to my 
> fanhood. I'm expanding my horizons a bit, though. I'm sure I'll get EA, 
> but I am going to be careful and choose new Traveller materials wisely. 
> It's kinda sad, 'cuz there was a time where I'd gobble anything up 
> Traveller that had DGP's name on it, but IG hasn't yet instilled that 
> sense of confidence in me yet. Here's hoping Courtney and Marc can turn 
> it around. <a toast is raised>

Well, they just took a big nose dive in my book.  This not fixing the 
LL=GL thing in FS/M0 is really burning me up.

I'm trying really hard to have faith in these people, but I feel like 
every time they do something right--the EA, they follow it up with 
something incredibly wrong--this crappy decision to NOT FIX THE DAMN 
DATA after they fuc**d it up in the first place.

Then, there's this task system thing.  It was wrong when it came out, 
so they are replacing it with another system that still has problems.

I mean, doesn't anybody else out there have a problem with the fact 
that, in T4-revised, you can only roll spectacular failure 
Formidable, Staggering, and Impossible tasks?

I can see Easy tasks--they're usually automatic anyway, but what 
about Average and Difficult tasks?  

SF should be a consideration when rolling these--especially Difficult 
ones!

And, since we're having a go at the task system again in T4-Revised, 
then why the heck are they including the half die when it is so 
unpopular?

IG, GET RID OF THE DAMN THING.

Ooooo, damn I'm getting mad about this.

Brother.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:22:09 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Ships in Port?

Here's a quickie question.

I was wondering what the best way to determine the number and type of 
ships in port to be.  You know, the characters are on a planet for a 
while, and you need to determine the number of ships at the starport 
on a given day for whatever reason.

Do any of you other GMs out there have a system for this?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:21:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Subject: "Errata" Policies of (Other) Companies

Warning:  This message may not be suitable for people with heart
conditions or other serious health problems.  :-)  


I haven't purchased _First_Survey_ (FS), but I *have* looked through it
(at a local games/comics store).  Reading through this and other
supplements of T4, and recollecting the info on this list re: IG's policy
on the errata, forcibly brought to mind the following analogy.  


IBM's policy on errors:  "Oh, <EXPLETIVE>!!!  Quick!  Print up the errata!
We'll send it out as a memo to all our customers and everyone else on our
mailing list.  We'll also include it in our technical advisories."  

Microsoft's policy:  "<SMIRK>  *That's not an *error*, it's a *feature*!"  

Steve Jackson Games (SJG) policy:  "Oh, <EXPLETIVE>!!!  Quick!  Print up
the errata!  We'll include it with all copies of the game.  We'll include
it in the next issue of _Pyramid_.  And let's post it on our Web site."  

GDW's policy:  "Oh, <EXPLETIVE>!!!  Quick!  Print up the errata!  We'll
include it with all copies of the game.  We'll also include it in the next
issue of _Challenge_ magazine."  

TSR's policy:  "*That's* not an *error*, it's a *fea--...  Well, it isn't 
a *really* bad error...  Oh, all *right*.  We'll post a correction in 
_Dragon_ magazine."  

Imperium Games' policy:  ...What was that decision of theirs, again?  
;-)  *When* did they say they would *correct* FS?  *After* they re-release
the *current* version as a "special edition" with M0?  *Who* does that
sound like?  


Naturally, this is "in my opinion."  

Franklin

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:29:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: 1G accel?

> Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:07:52 +1000 (EST)
> From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
> 
> A ship in normal space with 1g of blast acceleration would travel how
> fast/far?  An answer in km/hour would be cool if anyone knows of the top
> of thier heads.  Thanks.

Working in m/s is easier -- to get to km/hr, multiply m/s by 3.6.

1 G is taken as 10 m/s^2, i.e., 10 meters per second per second.  The
actual surface gravity of Earth is close to 9.8 m/s^2, but 10 is nearly
identical and makes for much prettier calculations.  Thus, 10 m/s^2 is a
"standard G" in Traveller terms.

Now, the equations.  In each case, the interval involved is 't'; the
initial and final values of position are 'p0' and 'p1', of velocity 'v0'
and 'v1'.  The constant acceleration is 'a'.  Note that p, v, and a are
all vector quantities, though you can ignore this if all velocities and
accelerations are colinear.

   p1 = p0 + v0*dt + 0.5*a*t^2
   v1 = v0 + a*t

Thus, from a standing start (v0 = 0), the distance travelled |(p1 - p0)|
is 0.5*a*t^2, and the final speed is at.  For example, thrusting at 1 G
for a 30-minute (1800 second) space combat turn from a dead stop, we find
that at the end of the turn,

  d = 0.5*(10 m/s^2)*(1800 s)^2 = 1.62e7 m = 16,200 km
  v = (10 m/s^2)*(1800 s) = 18,000 m/s = 64,800 km/hr = 32,400 km/turn

A useful figure to recall is that, to a first approxmation and neglecting
relativistic effects, lightspeed is one G-year. 

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:56:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Subject: "Baddies from Core," Jumpspace, Evil SuperTech Horrors...

Here's an *evil* idea for the "Baddies from the Core hate Jump
Space/Drives"...  

(Spoiler Alert!):

Roger Macbride Allen <sp?> wrote a two-book series, "The Wheel of Charon"
and "The Shattered Sphere."  

In this series, an ancient race that mastered gravity was in the habit of
building Dyson spheres as power generators.  They would use miniature
black holes to create wormholes to travel interstellar distances.  And
they would *steal* habitable planets as part of their breeding program...

There was *another* ancient alien race that lived *deep*inside* gravity
wells and that *ate* Dyson spheres.  

The first race fought a war with the second, almost lost, and started
hiding.  

Now, suppose that the black hole in the center of the galaxy is a *Super*
Dyson sphere/power generator, that jump space is the distribution grid (as
suggested by someone else on the list), ... do you see were this is
leading?  :-)  

Just food for thought.

Franklin

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1326
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 15 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1327



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: First Survey error's?
Re: FS
Re: IG Pricing Policy
Re: On culture shock and technological change
GURPS (was Re: Corps) Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:32:37 +0100 From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman) Subject: Re: Corps >Normally, I don't bring this up (it is a Traveller mailing list >after all) but since we are already talking about alternate >systems that go with the Traveller background...  I've >been using GURPS for over a year now and it works very >well.  A copy of my article on using GURPS with Traveller >is available at.... Are there any attempts at adding Traveller j-drives to GURPS vehicles? If anybody has seen work done in that regard please inform us (URL or whatever) were to find it.
Re: 1G accel?
The Code Duello [was More EA Nits]
Ancients and jump-space
Re: Ship economics -- fuel comsumption
Re: Psionic Mistake?
1G accel?
Re: Captain, we're surrounded, and they're all armed with cano ns....
Re: IG Pricing Policy
Re: 1G accel?
Re: IG Pricing Policy
Grow UP!
Re: Core Expedition dates
RE: First Survey error's?
Re: 1G accel?
Re: Ships in Port?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:15:03 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: RE: First Survey error's?

On Thu, 15 May 1997, Joseph E. Walsh wrote:

> FS has complete data for referee's, and partial data for players.  The 
> only "full data" item missing is maps with every world marked.  So, what 
> you're saying is that you would have preferred that FS contain full maps 
> instead of (or in addition to) the partial maps already in there?  
> 

No Joe, FS does NOT have full data...Despite any desperate handwaving
coming from IG, they screwed up and did not put in the proper LAW or GOV
code, whichever it is (since they're both the same, I don't know which is 
right, now, do I). 

No matter what handwaving the IG does to dispel the fact that FS was
seriously flawed from a players AND a GM's viewpoint, short of making the
corrected version available, somewhere, they're losing a bunch of T4
players, and worse, evangelists over this. So far I've been told that I
have to REPURCHASE just about everything I've bought, if I want usable
data OR corrections. This is a crappy way to treat customers. 

The essence of whatever interaction your TRAVELLING players have to deal
with, just about anywhere they go is determined first and foremost by
just _two_ codes of the UWP: LAW and GOV. This is how Traveller has always
been, and is an important part of the game mechanic.

Putting out a supplement with such a grave flaw is bad, telling us that a)
oh by the way there IS no law  level, and b) buy the corrected version to
figure out how we handwave our way around this is the equivalent of
Intel's reaction to the Pentium floating point bug a few years ago, first 
deny it happened, then tell your customers that they don't need to worry
their pretty little heads about it. We KNOW how well that worked, now,
don't we??

IG should bite the bullet, and put out errata somehow. They can protect
their investment easily...the online or print version can contain nothing
but the sector name, the hex number and the corrected law level...to make
sense of it, you'll still have to have FS or M0, but then you'll at least 
be _able_ to make sense of it.

None of this 'Maybe the Imperium has an Agenda' crap...IG should take one
lesson from GDW, and realize that the GM is not someone to be kept in the
dark..one of THE single most annoying pieces of crap to come from TNE (and
I LIKE TNE, even Virus!) was GDW's putting out incomplete or inaccurate
information to the GM...as GM I'm the one who gets a load of crap on me
from the players when something doesn't make sense or suddenly changes.

Sorry to vent like this, and I know that Joe ISN'T the net-rep for IG
anymore, but maybe some of this mail is filtering through to them.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:53:00 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: FS

On Thu, 15 May 1997, Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:

> You *can't* be serious. Did someone at IG actually try and persuade you
> this was the case?

Heck no.  As I said at the beginning of the message, let's have fun with 
this.  Just trying to come up with explanations for everything, from 
game-reasons to real-life-reasons.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh  |  Game Designer for Marc Miller's Traveller
_________________|  Atari 1200XL and Apple IIGS User and Programmer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:54:31 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: IG Pricing Policy

On Fri, 16 May 1997, dadams wrote:

> The big problem is for us people OS. Take Australia for exaple. We look
> at the american price, then double it. Concidereing that the exchange
> rate sits at A$0.74 for a US$1, this can be anoying.

I'd say so!  Sheesh.  I bet American companies don't like it any more 
than you do, though; it certainly gives them a competitive disadvantage as 
compared to your domestically produced products.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh  |  Game Designer for Marc Miller's Traveller
_________________|  Atari 1200XL and Apple IIGS User and Programmer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 17:00:14 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: On culture shock and technological change

On 05/14/97 at 10:15 AM,  Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net> said:
> A car will be pure magic, as will the grocery store...but the idea
> of going to a market to get food will be instantly comprehensible.
> Within a week, our Egyptian will be getting comfortable with the
> routine magic in our society, and learning how to use it to meet
> his own needs.

   Early Egyptian nothing, I've met Russian immigrants in the past
who had a hard time with the supermarket concept when they first 
saw it.  The adapted quick enough though. :-)


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
"In 1991, [Vice President] Gore cited Bush's China policy as a reason he 
should be defeated for reelection, charging Bush sent his emissaries to 
toast the butchers of Tiananmen Square.'" -- Deborah Orin in the New York 
Post, March 26, 1997, the day after Gore drank champagne with Chinese 
Premier Li Peng, who helped plan the Tiananmen massacre
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:02:09 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: GURPS (was Re: Corps) Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:32:37 +0100 From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman) Subject: Re: Corps >Normally, I don't bring this up (it is a Traveller mailing list >after all) but since we are already talking about alternate >systems that go with the Traveller background...  I've >been using GURPS for over a year now and it works very >well.  A copy of my article on using GURPS with Traveller >is available at.... Are there any attempts at adding Traveller j-drives to GURPS vehicles? If anybody has seen work done in that regard please inform us (URL or whatever) were to find it.

Thu, 15 May 1997 12:32:37 +0100,  anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders
Backman)
> Are there any attempts at adding Traveller j-drives to GURPS vehicles? If
> anybody has seen work done in that regard please inform us (URL or
> whatever) were to find it.

I've worked through this (with MegaTraveller) and it all comes
down to how close you want to be how they work in Traveller.
In general, you can take the weight and volume of the drive
(or any other component) out of Traveller and just stick
it into a vehicle being designed under GURPS.  Alternately
you just pick the FTL drive that most fits how Traveller
works (I think it is a "hyperspace" drive but I'm not
sure, GURPS uses a different terminology for types of
FTL drives) and pump up the fuel needs a lot to reflect
the consumption of a Traveller jump drive.  (or not if
you don't care if you players need to worry about fuel
as much).

I have an Imperial scout designed with Vehicles 1st Ed. at...
ftp://ftp.io.com/pub/GURPSnet/Worlds/Traveller/
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 17:56:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@peterboro.net>
Subject: Re: 1G accel?

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Merrick Burkhardt wrote:
> > A ship in normal space with 1g of blast acceleration would travel how
> > fast/far?  An answer in km/hour would be cool if anyone knows of the top
> > of thier heads.  Thanks.
> 
> It depends on how long you have the drives lit up.
> 
> The velocity (in meters per second) of a ship at 1g is:
> 
> V = (9.8)t^2
>     --------
> 	2

   More to the point, top speed is governed by total fuel-mass available.
(delta-vee)

   A lower acceleration spacecraft might actually have more mass available
to use for fuel, and thus have a higher total delta-vee - resulting in a
higher top-speed.

- -- DLH                                 lhadley@peterboro.net

http://www.peterboro.net/~lhadley/Profile.html

  "Fight to fly, fly to fight, fight to win." - TOPGUN motto.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:53:15 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: The Code Duello [was More EA Nits]

>From: lee@uansv2.Vanderbilt.Edu (Mike Lee)
>Subject: Re: More EA Nits

>        I think that, like the nobles of 17th century France, weapons worn
>by the nobility would fall into two classes: ornamental and fighting blades.[excellent comments on duelling nobles deleted]

I only have a few points to raise about what you said.  

1.  Don't forget about metallurgical advances in the far future.  
Would it help a blade if it were made of bonded superdense material, 
i.e., material whose molecules are pulled closer together by running 
a current through it?  Striker provides rules for bonded superdense 
armor, but this might make a blade stronger, too.  What about 
crystalliron, or some other metal or alloy "grown" into shape, rather 
than forged and hammered?

2.  Is armor permitted under the Code Duello?  What forms?  
Covering what?  Powered or not?  Who chooses?

3.  Women in the Imperium have total equality with men as a 
matter of law (and longstanding canon).  Noblewomen will therefore 
participate in the conventions of duelling.  How does this affect 
the subject, if at all?  N.B. your comments:

"An ornamental blade would be shorter ... [and] less intrusive 
to _milord's_ regal bearing..... keeping the blade under control 
requires the use of your left hand, which could be better served 
holding drinks, hors d'ouvres, or _milady's_ hand.  

"There were also schools of duelling with two-handed swords 
and polearms, for those with _more testosterone than they knew 
what to do with._"

Emphases added.    

4.  The Vilani probably don't participate in duels.  They'd be 
more likely to have a meeting, maybe refer the matter to 
mediation or arbitration, or, in the case of a really grave 
insult, commence a lawsuit.  How does this affect the standing 
of Vilani nobles at court?  There are perhaps some adventure 
hooks here for a political campaign after the Vilani worlds 
join the Imperium.  
        
5.  "What's a good solid Imperial Marine Cutlass like? .... Solid is 
the word."  I think that we're in accord on Marine blades, except that 
these would certainly make the maximum use of high-tech metallurgy.  
For example, can we make a blade that becomes heavier during a 
downward slash, to add weight to the blow (by turning on the current 
that makes it bonded superdense metal)?  

>        Hope all this is helpful.  I'm considering doing a JTAS article on
>the Code Duella of the Imperium, and the weapons, schools, and tactics
>involved  (maybe even some rules additions).  Do you think this would be
>something that Traveller players might find interesting or useful?

I would find it both interesting and helpful.  University of California 
Press published a definitive book on the Code Duello in France a few 
years ago; you should certainly give it a look.  Also don't ignore concepts 
derived from the Japanese duelling culture.  Ben Bova's The Duelling 
Machine is an interesting read while you're on the subject.  I hope 
that you introduce some really alien elements into your vision of the 
Code Duello, to remind us a few thousands of years have passed since 
today, and that some very different cultures are involved in this game.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:59:55 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Ancients and jump-space

>From: Douglas N Sinclair <sinclai@ecf.toronto.edu>

>In my campaign, jump-space is an Ancient artifact in itself.  The reason
>the galaxy wasn't overrun with jump capable aliens long ago is because
>it took a Tl 31 race to construct the jump-space in the first place.
>The Tl-9 jump-drive is only an interface device.

That's great! and there's even some indirect canonical support for 
the concept.  From Secret of the Ancients, we know, for example, that 
the Ancients learned how to pinch off a portion of this universe into 
a pocket universe, and that they also had teleportation portals that 
allowed one to go from point A in this universe through a short 
stretch of a pocket universe to a distant point B.  Jump space itself 
might be a pocket universe or series of pocket universes through which 
we can go, using a jump drive instead of a teleportation portal.  

>I have further speculated, but not actually played, that jump-space
>only works around known-space and the Zhodani core corridor.  This
>would allow for Vinge style slow zones.

Another cool idea!  If the Ancients created jump space, they only put it
where they were, and we're the lucky beneficiaries.  What's Vinge?  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 17:26:02 -0500
From: Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com>
Subject: Re: Ship economics -- fuel comsumption

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
 
> In an in-depth answer, basically, what he and the editors at DGP said
> was that all of a ship's jump fuel tank will be used no matter what
> the jump being attempted.
> 
> The example they gave was, if a Jump-4 ship attempts to jump two
> parsecs, then the same amount of fuel will be used no matter what the
> jump.

	Picture this situation, then:

	A J-2 Far trader with an eye for economics fills his tanks half full
for the next jump, which happens to be a one parsec jump. He presses the
big shiny red button, all the fuel in the tank is used, the crystrals
are charged, and off he goes.

	Or does he? 

	If I read it right, the feul is dumped from the tank all at once, then
used/abused/whatever to get the energy needed for jump. The jump
governor then uses that energy in specific patterns to produce the
intended effect - to make the ship go thataway.
	The question is whether or not larger jump drives actually need all
that energy for shorter range jumps, or if that is simply a byproduct of
the combustion/energy generation process. If it is not actually needed,
then the drive could be tricked as above, as long as the governor could
be programmed to handle the lower ammount of energy in the crystals. You
would also see ships with multiple fuel tanks, each holding enough fuel
for J-1, and only using the tankage they need.
	
	Also, what happens to the energy stored in the crystals after 2 or 3
hours? It has to go somewhere...

Ryan Christensen	litefoot@feist.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:40:42 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Psionic Mistake?

On Thu, 15 May 1997, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> I just noticed a problem on page 123 of Book 1.  At least, I think it 
> is a problem.
> 
> There, under Training, it states that psionic training takes 4 years!
> 
> Surely, this is a miss-print.  I can't imagine implementing this for 
> characters in an on-going campaign.  If this were true, the only 
> feasible way for a character to have psionics is to develop that 
> during character generation.
> 
> In CT, this same line read 4 months, so I take it that the "years" is 
> a typo.  Right?

Maybe they're referring to Psionic training being a character generation
step, like undergraduate or graduate scholl, in which case 4 years= 1
term. I am hampered by the fact that my book's at home right now, though.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 18:35:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: 1G accel?

   Hi.

> Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:48:28 +0000
> From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>

>> Hate to butt in but also what is the max velocity a ship could obtain 
>> using 1G accel. and assuming unlimited time and fuel? Is there an 
>> upper limit dictated by the ship's strucure, or can it keep accel. at
>> 1G, 2G, 3G wahtever depending on the manuver drive and limited by
>> the speed of light?
>> Just curious.
>> Dave
 
> Good question, Dave.  I've often wondered this myself.  Let's see 
> what the Traveller physicist on this list say about it.

   From the point of view of the ship's crew, there is no limit.  "Well,
   what about lightspeed?", you ask.  "Isn't that a limit?"  

   Yes and no.  In the reference frame of the stars of known space, you
   are limited to the speed of light.  You can't go to a star four
   lightyears away in less than four years.  As you approach the speed
   of light, your acceleration is reduced by the time dialation that
   your ship's engines undergo, so you can never acclerate to (or
   beyond) the speed of light.

   But, in the reference frame of the ship, this time dialation is offset
   /exactly/ by the length contraction of the /universe/! In the ship's
   reference frame, it is the universe that is moving at some fraction
   of lightspeed, and the distance between your origin and destination
   undergoes a contraction due to relativity.  This length contraction
   allows the effective "speed" of the starship, as experienced by the
   slow-aging ship's crew, to be unlimited.

   The upshot of all this is that the distance-time relationships given
   in Traveller are correct for /relativistic/ as well as Galilean
   travel, assuming the point of view of the ship's crew.

   To re-iterate: Assuming constant acceleration to midpoint, turnover,
   and then constant deceleration to the destination, the formula is

   T = sqrt( D/(A*16200) )

   where T is time in hours, D is distance in kilometers, and A is
   acceleration in G's.  So to travel to Alpha Centauri (about 4
   lightyears away), with a lightyear being about 10 trillion kilometers
   (1.0E+13 km), at one gee, we get

   	T = sqrt( 1.0e13/(1*16200) )
     	  = ~25,000 hours = ~1000 days = 2.8 years

   as the time that passes for the ship's crew.

   Figuring out the time that passes for the star systems is a little
   trickier (I can't seem to manage to derive the equations), but it
   will be a little longer than the 4-year minimum.

   To cross known space at 6G (500 parsecs, where each parsec is about 30
   trillion kilometers) we get

   	T = sqrt(  500*3.0e13/(6*16200) ) = 3.9e5 hours = 45 years

   ship's time.  But 500 parsecs is about 1600 light years, so this
   would take about 1600 years of undialated time.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:52:15 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Captain, we're surrounded, and they're all armed with cano ns....

David Elrick <David.Elrick@ps.co.uk> wrote:

>5. Jump drives use Lanthanum.

There's a reference in the SOpM to Vargr J-drives using Barium (what do you
do with Vargr Jump Drives - Bury'em!)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Feel the guilt / like shackles round your feet / like a halo in reverse"
                     Depeche Mode "Violator"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 00:49:34 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: IG Pricing Policy

"Kenneth Bearden" wrote:

>Here's an interesting note on T4 prices that I was glad to see.  One
>of my players recently took my advice and went out an bought the EA.
>I went with him, because we were hanging out together that day, and
>his girlfriend was out of town for Mother's Day.
>
>We went to the SAME store to buy his copy of the EA that I bought
>mine at--and guess what!!!!
>
>The damn thing was $2.50 cheaper.  All of the T4 stuff had been
>marked down.  All of the $22.50 supplements are now $20.00 at that
>store.
>
>Even the main book was marked down.
>
>I'm not sure if this was something the store did, or if IG is
>scaling back prices or offering dealer rebates or what.
>
>All I know is that this is a good thing.

No, this could be a very bad thing. It could mean the game isn't moving and
the dealer wants to shift the stock.

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Feel the guilt / like shackles round your feet / like a halo in reverse"
                     Depeche Mode "Violator"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:37:34 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: 1G accel?

>Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 05:27:30 -0700
>From: Dave Strebe <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>

>Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
>Hate to butt in but also what is the max velocity a ship could obtain 
>using 1G accel. and assuming unlimited time and fuel? Is there an 
>upper limit dictated by the ship's strucure, or can it keep accel. at
>1G, 2G, 3G wahtever depending on the manuver drive and limited by
>the speed of light?

Depends on how the ship is propelled.  If you have something that produces
a constant force sufficient to accelerate at 1G, as determined by the
people on the ship, then there is no upper limit, beyond the usual
relativity ones.  (e.g., after going for a while, you will notice that your
acceleration efforts are going into providing you with higher mass, not
higher v.)  I suspect the dozen atoms per m^3 in hard vacuum are not going
to both you that much, even moving near lightspeed.  (each m^2 will
encounter 3e8 cubic meters of vaacuum per second, which means that you are
hitting ~10^10 particles or so a second, not enough to really slow you down
till you are going as near c as makes no difference.)

One problem you will see, though, is that each electron you hit has become
deadly beta radiation due to the high velocity you impact it with.  How
deadly depends on how fast, but you can likely work it out via the usual
relativity formulas for energy of a particle.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 00:42:57 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: IG Pricing Policy

>Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 19:13:15 -0500 (CDT)
>"Joseph E. Walsh"wrote
>On Tue, 13 May 1997, SD Mooney wrote:
>
>> Am I going to do anything about it? Well, I'm using the TML as a filter to
>> decide what to buy!
>
>Good plan; every consumer should seek out information about the item
>under consideration before making an actual purchase.  I don't know how
>many times I've bought something only to find out that not only am I
>disappointed, but there are tons of people who got burned as well, and
>who would have been happy to warn me off the product before-hand.
>
>'Course, any time you receive such information, you have to take into
>consideration who is giving it to you.  Each of us has our own biases,
>etc.

True, but you can get a general gist of the contents and reactions by
listening to the TML in Traveller's case...

>But, to get back to the pricing issue, comparing substitute items to the
>price of RPGs over their useful lifetimes shows me that we're getting a
>heck of a deal, really (not that I won't always want lower prices<G>), on
>RPG's in general.  F'rinstance, a Super Nintendo cart is quite expensive
>- - darned near $100 a pop.  A computer game will run you $40 to $80 bucks,
>until it hits the bargain bins.  And in both cases, the amount of time
>you spend with them _tends_ to be less than with an RPG you really like
>(I say _tends_ because there are exceptions, of coruse; heck, I've played
>_Star Raiders_ for hundreds and hundreds of hours over the years).

My point is that other companies in the same market are producing products
that are better quality (certainly in presentation and internal accuracy).
IG is starting to improve, but the duds to hits ratio is bad. IG's volume
of output is high - which probably raises expectations on my part. Previous
standards set by GDW and DGP have made products such as FS and Starships a
real disappointment.

>'Course, if you're one of the folks that feels it necessary to buy every
>supplement for Traveller no matter whether you feel its content will be
>useful in your own sessions (not to mention those of us who buy two or
>three copies of each supplement), RPG's become much less of a good buy. =)

This puts me in a dilemma - I don't buy everything, but I'd like to buy
more to support Traveller as a product.

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Feel the guilt / like shackles round your feet / like a halo in reverse"
                     Depeche Mode "Violator"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 18:29:58 +0000
From: twolf@unix.tfs.net
Subject: Grow UP!

Kenneth wrote:
> Well, they just took a big nose dive in my book.  This not fixing
> the LL=GL thing in FS/M0 is really burning me up.
<Snip>
> Then, there's this task system thing.  It was wrong when it came
> out, so they are replacing it with another system that still has
> problems.
<Another Snip>
> And, since we're having a go at the task system again in T4-Revised,
> then why the heck are they including the half die when it is so
> unpopular?
> 
> IG, GET RID OF THE DAMN THING.
> 
Anyone besides me getting tired of hearing this?  I am a 
firm believer in the right of free speech, in fact I am sworn to 
defend it.  Once is great...twice okay, even three times I can 
understand, but twenty times!?!  This has gone beyond the expression 
of one's opinion.

HEY! Grow Up!

You have the right to voice your opinion, but when IG doesn't take 
your opinion or position, then move on.  If you don't like that they 
didn't drop the 3 sided dice Fine!  Won't fix FS, Fine!  Don't buy IG 
products!  GO write your own game but leave this whining , 
whimpering, drool off the net.  It is a waste of bandwidth.

JD
Twolf

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 16:26:31 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Core Expedition dates

At 11:06 AM 5/15/97 +1000, Solomani wrote:
>On Wed, 14 May 1997, Bruce Johnson wrote:

>> On Wed, 14 May 1997, Michael Solomani Mifsud wrote:

>> > Does anyone have the dates of the Solomani Core Expeditions?
>> 
>> Do you mean the Zhodani Core Expeditions? There were some deep rimward
>> Solomani exploratory missions, those were mentioned on the list a while
>> back.
>
>No Solomani, I was under the impression that the Solomani also did core
>expeditions.  If not I can just make up a date - if so, I would like
>the dates.

slight problem.  Between the Solomani and the core, lies the Third
Imperium, who woul;d probably not cotton to allowing a massive expidition
of solomani passage through the Empire.

I believe the Rats concentrated on *Rim* explorations.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|   about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|   Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|     -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin" |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 19:02:03 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: RE: First Survey error's?

On Thu, 15 May 1997, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> Me too.  And, they shouldn't have called it First Survey.  What are 
> they going to call the real First Survey when they get to it?

I don't recall off-hand, but the first survey done by the Imperium wasn't 
called First Survey when it occurred, just as World War I wasn't called 
World War I until later on.  Was it "The Imperial Grand Survey?"  I 
forget.  But, that's my guess as to what the title of that future book 
will be - whatever that first survey was referred to as in its time.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh  |  Game Designer for Marc Miller's Traveller
_________________|  Atari 1200XL and Apple IIGS User and Programmer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 17:45:32 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: 1G accel?

At 03:07 pm 05/15/97 +1000, you wrote:
>
>A ship in normal space with 1g of blast acceleration would travel how
>fast/far?  An answer in km/hour would be cool if anyone knows of the top
>of thier heads.  Thanks.

	1G of acceleration tells me nothing about "how fast/how far." To determine
how fast, you have to tell me how long you're accelerating. To determine
how far, the answer is forever until it hits something. A few useful equations

	d= distance
	a= acceleration
	v= velocity
	t= time elapsed
	v0= initial velocity (at t=0)

	d= 0.5*a*t^2 + v0*t
	v= a*t

	
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 17:54:39 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Ships in Port?

At 01:22 pm 05/15/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Here's a quickie question.
>
>I was wondering what the best way to determine the number and type of 
>ships in port to be.  You know, the characters are on a planet for a 
>while, and you need to determine the number of ships at the starport 
>on a given day for whatever reason.
>
>Do any of you other GMs out there have a system for this?

	There's a couple of spreadsheets on my web site (yes, they're one of the
few things I've had time to get uploaded to the new site), based on the
World Builder's Handbook. One of them does starports--ships in port, number
of berths, startown facilities, transportation, warehousing, etc. Right now
all that's up is a Mac Excel version, but somebody was kind enough to
update them to Excel95 and email them to me. They're on the list for
uploading right after the Second Coming... (of Traveller, that is).
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1327
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, May 16 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1328



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: First Survey error's?
Re: Surrvey
Re: Ancients, baddies, grandfather, and jump space
Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth
Re: ANCIENT Grandfather
Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth
Re: Total BS
Re: Grow UP!
FS Question
Re: Ship economics -- fuel comsumption
Re: Ships in Port?
Re: Total BS
Re: 1G accel?
Re: ANCIENT Grandfather
Re: Grow UP!
Re: Ancients and jump-space
Anti-Grav?
Re: Core Expedition dates
RE:Grow UP

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 18:03:56 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: RE: First Survey error's?

At 12:15 pm 05/15/97 -0700, you wrote:
>No matter what handwaving the IG does to dispel the fact that FS was
>seriously flawed from a players AND a GM's viewpoint, short of making the
>corrected version available, somewhere, they're losing a bunch of T4
>players, and worse, evangelists over this. So far I've been told that I
>have to REPURCHASE just about everything I've bought, if I want usable
>data OR corrections. This is a crappy way to treat customers. 

	Yup. Sounds like that's one of the books I won't be adding to my
collection. Calling a critical error a "feature" just doesn't cut it. I
don't tolerate that in software, and I'm not willing to tolerate it in
games, or anywhere else I spend my hard-earned money. But then, I felt
badly burned by "Starships," too. Loyalty to a game only goes so far, and I
don't like being p*ssed on and told it's rain.

>Putting out a supplement with such a grave flaw is bad, telling us that a)
>oh by the way there IS no law  level, and b) buy the corrected version to
>figure out how we handwave our way around this is the equivalent of
>Intel's reaction to the Pentium floating point bug a few years ago, first 
>deny it happened, then tell your customers that they don't need to worry
>their pretty little heads about it. We KNOW how well that worked, now,
>don't we??

	Compare this to Saturn. One year, they put the wrong engine oil in about
6,000 cars before they caught it. Would have shortened the life of the
engines significantly. Did they just not tell the customers? Did they send
them a bill for the "special oil?" Did they change all their later cars to
use the same oil? Nope. They went out to each and every person who'd bought
one of those cars, and traded them a brand new car for it. No questions
asked, no depreciation for mileage, "We screwed up, we're here to fix it."

	Now, there's no way IG can send out replacements for all flawed books. But
trying to PROPAGATE the flaw, and handwave over it is probably the
absolutely WORST thing they could do. The only acceptable solution would be
to fix the data, and print it spread out over three or four JTAS issues.
Note: this has the side benefit of increasing sales of JTAS. Making the
correct LL/GG info available on the net would also be good.

	But I'm definitely not going to buy a product I already know is just plain
stupidly broke.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 17:04:32 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Surrvey

At 02:32 AM 1/1/97 -0800, you wrote:

>As, for a gathering of the Tmlers of the bay. How 'bouts Sunday
>June the 1st, at some Dennys around Hayward? Noonish?

Alas, work will still have me at that time...

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|   about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|   Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|     -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin" |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 11:29:11 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Ancients, baddies, grandfather, and jump space

On Thu, 15 May 1997, Matthew Harelick wrote:

Love to, problem is I did not keep all the back and fourth email.  Try
getting the digest.

> Hi: 
> 
> I only caught the end of this story so can the authors mail me the whole
> thing at matth@time.njit.edu
> 
> Neat story , sorry I missed most of it. 
> 
> Matthew
> 
> 
> -- 
> Matthew Harelick  matth@homer.njit.edu	http://hertz.njit.edu/~msh9848
> Real-Time Computing Lab		       http://rtlab12.njit.edu/welcome.html
> New Jersey Institute of Technology     http://www.njit.edu
> 
> 


SaHua,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


Midnight shakes the memory as a madman shakes a geranium
 						-T. S. Eliot

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 11:35:19 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth

On Thu, 15 May 1997, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> 
> > BUT... ANY reasonable FTL system *can* be made self-consistant and 
> > explainable. Jumpspace or Hyperspace is one such system. Again, if you 
> > want to use wormholes, go right ahead. Just please, please, please, stop 
> > "DISSing" Traveller Jumpspace. I take it kinda personally. :)
> 
> Hey man.  You better watch it.  Glenn is our resident TML Jumpspace 
> guru, and he'll eat you alive with his knowledge of Traveller 
> jumpspace.
> 
> Don't diss the J-Man.  :)

hehehe I will.  ALways seem to upset people on the list - must be the way
I look ;-)

> 
> Kenneth.
> 


SaHua,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


Midnight shakes the memory as a madman shakes a geranium
 						-T. S. Eliot

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:03:23 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: ANCIENT Grandfather

On Thu, 15 May 1997, Anders Backman wrote:

> The last quote is some evidence that grandfather "gave" jump tech to the
> major races. How else would he know which ones were to be major long before
> they actually became major races? Especially troublesome is the fact that
> Aslans are on the Coyns as they have lately been proven not to be major.

Whos to say that he new, or even cared who would be the major races?
Also, your assuming he uses the same gauge we use to measure a major race
- - jump drive.  Maybe he uses sentinent's not technology?

It would have been cool if a race was shown that no one knows about on the
coyns.  Assuming that there are more inteligent major races in the galaxy,
he choose the 6 we are familiar with, because these are the six which are
closest to the Droyne home world (where ever that is).

Just musing.



SaHua,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


Midnight shakes the memory as a madman shakes a geranium
 						-T. S. Eliot

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:06:54 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth

On Thu, 15 May 1997, Glenn Hoppe wrote:

> On 1997-05-14 20:47 thus spake Michael Solomani Mifsud:
> 
> >Hmmm, did *I* say it was wrong?  *I* dont think so. *I* said that the method
> >used in Traveller does not mesh at all well with our current theoritical
> >knowledge on FTL.  After doing some research *I* have found an alternate
> >way and *I* will be using this system in *my* universe, but I would like
> >to hear TML gearhead opinion on *my* use of an alternate method and how to
> >mesh that into *my* Universe.
> 
> Go right ahead. I encourage you to do so. I tried to help by posting some 
> wormhole ideas.
[snip]

hehehe, sorry I blew your fuse;) did not realise the Jump drive was so
importent to you.  It is just a game.  Tell you what, I'll tinker together
my wormhole/jump gate/jump drive system and post it to the list, at which
point you may tear it apart - ok?

:)

SaHua,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


Midnight shakes the memory as a madman shakes a geranium
 						-T. S. Eliot

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 17:26:41 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Total BS

At 05:40 PM 5/14/97 +0000, Glenn wrote:
>Grrr.  I'm about to rumble.

I'll take cover.

>Maybe the reason T4 is not selling in this store (see my other 
>post--I talked to the manager) is becasue of reasons like quality 
>issues we've seen.

True, why bother with T4, since most of it is crap?  I'm the original
Traveller pusher, but even I'm to the point of telling people to wait for
the re-issues.

>I'm all set to forgive some of the horrendous crap that we've seen 
>from IG, and I have hopes and good indications from the new 
>management.

"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss"  It seems that the business end
of IG isn't really aware of how seriously we take this shit.  I have an
investment of 20 years and hundreds (maybe thousands) of dollars in
Traveller.  To be told that the obvious screw-ups are feature makes me burn.

>But now I hear about this bullshit of keeping the crappy data in FS 
>and M0.
>
>You have got to be kidding me.  After all this shitty product we've 
>seen for T4, and after still keeping the faith, we are hit with
>
>      "Its a business decision to keep the data in FS/M0"

A bad one.  I will not purchase any more product from IG until I am *sure*
that it is well written and resonably free of stupid mistakes.  They are
losing a customer who has in the past gone to great lengths to be the first
on his block to get the new Traveller material.. now I have a gamestore
that will ship it to me unpaid, and I'm not interested.  Something is very
wrong here!

>I'm really getting burned up here.  My heart just sinks when I see 
>stuff like this.
>
>I want T4 to be the best RPG ever so much.  I've got to tell you.  It 
>is damn hard to keep the faith when you see IG doing stuff like this.

Join the club.  I tried like hell to run a campaign under T4.  After four
or five sessions my file of house rules was approaching 12k.  I had to
patch everything!  Then I heard about CORPS, and now I'm going back to
basics.. A Free Trader in one or two subsectors.

>This is bullshit. Complete, total, bullshit.
>
>Why the hell do I support a game that keeps treating me this way?

Screw 'em.  I have close to $100 dollars of material, bought in the last
year, that is either unplayable, about to be superceded, or just plain bad.
 It may turn out that IG won't get any more money from me.  What'd I like
is to be able to send my old M:0 and FS in for a trade-in on the M:0
Campaign; but I doubt that's going to happen.

>The Babylon Project is looking better and better all the time.

Errr.. there are worse things than T4.. B5-RPG is one of them.

>Am I the only person who feels taken advantage of?

Not at all.  I think of the other things I could have down with my money,
bought my wife flowers, taken her to dinner, bought "You Don't Know Jack"
for our 'puter..  It makes me feel like a fool for trusting them this long.


- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|   about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|   Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|     -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin" |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 19:37:47 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Grow UP!

At 06:29 pm 05/15/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Kenneth wrote:
>> Well, they just took a big nose dive in my book.  This not fixing
>> the LL=GL thing in FS/M0 is really burning me up.
><Snip>
>> Then, there's this task system thing.  It was wrong when it came
>> out, so they are replacing it with another system that still has
>> problems.
><Another Snip>
>> And, since we're having a go at the task system again in T4-Revised,
>> then why the heck are they including the half die when it is so
>> unpopular?
>> 
>> IG, GET RID OF THE DAMN THING.
>> 
>Anyone besides me getting tired of hearing this?  I am a 
>firm believer in the right of free speech, in fact I am sworn to 
>defend it.  Once is great...twice okay, even three times I can 
>understand, but twenty times!?!  This has gone beyond the expression 
>of one's opinion.
>
>HEY! Grow Up!
>
>You have the right to voice your opinion, but when IG doesn't take 
>your opinion or position, then move on.  If you don't like that they 
>didn't drop the 3 sided dice Fine!  Won't fix FS, Fine!  Don't buy IG 
>products!  GO write your own game but leave this whining , 
>whimpering, drool off the net.  It is a waste of bandwidth.

	That depends. If enough people express their opinions, and express them
frequently enough, somebody might listen. It's called public opinion, and
it's something every business that wants to STAY in business listens to.
Intel didn't decide to replace the defective Pentiums until after quite a
few people said loudly and repeatedly "GET RID OF THE DAMN THING."

	So instead of chastising people for trying to improve something they like,
why don't you send email to IG, pointing these things out?
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 21:39:54 -0400
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: FS Question

Okay, we all know that First Survey is seriously flawed.  My question isn't
about that.

What no one has mentioned, and what I can't figure out, is which of these
worlds belong to which polity?  How do I know whether a world is supposed
to be inside or outside the Imperium?  There're no allegiance codes.  Am I
missing something?

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 21:22:16 +0000
From: "Bill Hopper" <whopper@pobox.com>
Subject: Re: Ship economics -- fuel comsumption

>  Kenneth Bearden writes:
> ...if a Jump-4 ship attempts to jump two 
> parsecs, then the same amount of fuel will be used no matter what the 
> jump.

From the Traveller Starter Edition (c.1983) page 32, "Ships 
performing jumps less than their maximum capacity consume fuel at a 
lower level based on the jump number used."  I believe that this was 
also the case in the edition of CT Book 3 - Starships that I had (it 
seems to have taken a walk).

IMO, variable jump fuel _is_ "the standard way" in CT/T4.  This is 
because I personally consider GDW's published rules to be the 
primary source for how things work in Traveller and other company's 
publications to be secondary.  YMMV

WKH

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 21:38:48 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Ships in Port?

David J. Golden said:
> 	There's a couple of spreadsheets on my web site (yes, they're one of the
> few things I've had time to get uploaded to the new site), based on the
> World Builder's Handbook. One of them does starports--ships in port, number
> of berths, startown facilities, transportation, warehousing, etc. Right now
> all that's up is a Mac Excel version, but somebody was kind enough to
> update them to Excel95 and email them to me. They're on the list for
> uploading right after the Second Coming... (of Traveller, that is).

They should be binary compatible... (have you seen Vehicle Factory at
JumpSpace? Very nice use of Excelness)...

- -- 
 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 PGP Fingerprint: E3 3F DF 08 BE 3E 44 A0  EE A9 80 7E 22 99 CD DF
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

Date: 16 May 1997 02:34:01 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Total BS

>The Babylon Project is looking better and better all the time.
>
>Am I the only person who feels taken advantage of?


No.  You all heard my whining/bitching about IG last year, and while their
products are improving I admit that I wouldn't be buying them if I wasn't a
Traveller fan from the year CT was first published.  I can live with the task
system (see my fix below), and I'm ignoring the more retrograde rules (eg.
the reinstatement of fixed range bands into the combat system), but the
casual disregard for already published background (eg. changing prices of
antigrav by an order of magnitude) which change the 'feel' of the game really
bother me.

Admittedly, part of this is the fact that, as Traveller slowly evolved into a
more hard-science nuts-and-bolts game I changed with it.  My reading tastes
are now far more hard-science than they were when I was a teenager, and old
CT adventures that I loved back then I find silly and boring now.  


I'll be running my first B5 game this weekend.  If it goes well, I think I
will switch to a B5/TNE mix, with Space 1889 for when I feel like space
opera.  I like the B5 personal combat system, the character generation system
is excellent for beginners, and (as you say) it has a wealth of _consistent_
background material.

- ----------

Rob's SIMPLE T4 Task Fix

Divide the characters attribute by the number of tasks he/she/iot is
attempting to do at once.  All other task rules remain the same.  Thus, a
chap talking and driving has his Dexterity cut in half for the skill roles. 
In fact, a chap _listenning_ and driving has the same penalty.  Talented but
untrained beginners had better concentrate!

This makes tasks somewhat harder than they are in a 'stock' T4 game, but it
rewards skilled players when the fecal matter has encountered the rotational
gas circulation device.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 14:23:52 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: 1G accel?

On Thu, 15 May 1997, David J. Golden wrote:

> At 03:07 pm 05/15/97 +1000, you wrote:
> >
> >A ship in normal space with 1g of blast acceleration would travel how
> >fast/far?  An answer in km/hour would be cool if anyone knows of the top
> >of thier heads.  Thanks.

Its okay, its been answered.

> 
> 	1G of acceleration tells me nothing about "how fast/how far." To determine
> how fast, you have to tell me how long you're accelerating. To determine
> how far, the answer is forever until it hits something. A few useful equations
> 
> 	d= distance
> 	a= acceleration
> 	v= velocity
> 	t= time elapsed
> 	v0= initial velocity (at t=0)
> 
> 	d= 0.5*a*t^2 + v0*t
> 	v= a*t
> 
> 	
> -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
>    goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
>     *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***
> 
>  "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
>   enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
>   a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine
> 
> 


PaChi,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


If you have to shoot, shoot.  Don't talk.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 21:17:48 -0600 (MDT)
From: "P. ENGEBOS" <pengebos@NMSU.Edu>
Subject: Re: ANCIENT Grandfather

On Fri, 16 May 1997, Michael Solomani Mifsud wrote:

> It would have been cool if a race was shown that no one knows about on the
> coyns.

That would have been neat.  But wouldn't we have kmade them publish
details?  But it would have been neat.

> Assuming that there are more inteligent major races in the galaxy,
> he choose the 6 we are familiar with, because these are the six which are
> closest to the Droyne home world (where ever that is).

IIRC, the Droyne home world was in the Regina Subsector and is one of the
worlds in grandfathers pocket dimension.  That's why no one has ever has
found it.

Peter Engebos				<pengebos@nmsu.edu>
T'Sarith, Lord deGaalth			<tsarith@io.com>
		http://web.nmsu.edu/~pengebos/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 20:17:39 -0700
From: "Rob Gillingham" <Farpoint@netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: Grow UP!

> Anyone besides me getting tired of hearing this?  I am a 
> firm believer in the right of free speech, in fact I am sworn to 
> defend it.  Once is great...twice okay, even three times I can 
> understand, but twenty times!?!  This has gone beyond the expression 
> of one's opinion.
> 
> HEY! Grow Up!
> 
> You have the right to voice your opinion, but when IG doesn't take 
> your opinion or position, then move on.  If you don't like that they 
> didn't drop the 3 sided dice Fine!  Won't fix FS, Fine!  Don't buy IG 
> products!  GO write your own game but leave this whining , 
> whimpering, drool off the net.  It is a waste of bandwidth.
> 
> JD
> Twolf


well i'd like to say.. that IG is doing a shitty job... and if they expect
us to just bow.. and accept things thats fine.. but not everyone can afford
to keep buying books wich fix'es there mistakes.. i don't know of a game
that the main rules were going to cost me over 60$ for the rules.. let
alone 80$ for M0 and FS
now come one... thats a total of 6 books 140+ for what 3 books
that should have been checked before they were released if 
mistakes were found.... then atleast FIX THEM! were not all
RICH! as for me.. hay T4 is gone from my list... and IG is goto
be the worst company yet.. with mistakes like they make.. no wonder they
can't afford to make cheap Fix's for us who paid
good money.. for there books.... Marc should have just re-done
CT and made it a bit newer looking.. CT task were okee.. not the best..
combat was easy.. and the products price and clairity were good.. no need
to have 50 pages of bug fixes.. to be printed.. end of story!



			- From one PO'ed customer!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 97 21:04:21 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Ancients and jump-space

On 05/15/97 at 12:48 PM,  "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
said:

> TRAVELLER:  THE MACROVERSE

> How does that make you feel?  8->

> Kenneth.

> PS  It makes me feel small.  "I'm getting tiny--soooo tiny."


> PPS  No, I'm not doing drugs tonight--just thinking outloud.  Eris  has
> that heretic effect on me.

Thank you Ken, I can but try. ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 14:42:00 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Anti-Grav?

Im curious, after seeing 5th element, I was wondering how would a society
manage so many grav cars?

The only thing I can think of is that the anti-grav device also establishs
a small buffer around the vehicle, so if a collision occurs, the two
vehicles just "bounce" off each other.  Combine this with computer aided
monitoring and warning system and you have an excellent safety record :)


PaChi,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


If you have to shoot, shoot.  Don't talk.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 14:47:35 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Core Expedition dates

On Thu, 15 May 1997, Glenn Hoppe wrote:

Thanks for the excerpt.  Whats a "base ship"?  last time I heard that term
used was in Battlestar Galactica.


> "Our boldest exploration venture is the ongoing Perseus Project, which in 
> 5568 sent 17 base ships far out toward the Perseus Arm of the galaxy -- 
> the next spiral arm beyond our Orion Spur's Sagittarian Arm."
> 
> "The Iouo was the last ship to return in 5624, after it explored star 
> clusters on the fringe of the Auriga Arm, almost 3,000 parsecs distant. 
> Three of the ships have yet to return, including the largest, Home."
> 
> In the Terran dating system, 4518 AD == Year 0.
> 
> ===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
> \ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
>  ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========
> 
> 


PaChi,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


If you have to shoot, shoot.  Don't talk.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 21:46:41 +0000
From: "Tim Reynolds" <tim@premier1.premier.net>
Subject: RE:Grow UP

One of my favorite GM said


HEY! Grow Up!

You have the right to voice your opinion, but when IG doesn't take
your opinion or position, then move on.  If you don't like that they
didn't drop the 3 sided dice Fine!  Won't fix FS, Fine!  Don't buy IG
products!  GO write your own game but leave this whining , whimpering,
drool off the net.  It is a waste of bandwidth.

JD
Twolf

High Five Twolf.  

I tried to do this nicely before  but some people just don't 
get it.  If you don't like Traveller the way IG is taking  it and you
think  you have a better system then by all means go make another game
and good luck.  But stop whining if you cant, go play Vampire they
will love you.

And why  we are on the subject running a new company especially a
creative one like IG takes allot of effort and mistakes are going to
be made  even some bad ones but I still think like most of you
Traveller is the best SF game around.  Ok so we don't get data, or we
get screwed up info.  I bet you almost nobody knew there were 30 pages
 missing  in M:0. Remember how much you loved it when it came out. 
 Now we are starting to grip about the pages.  Hey it blows I admit but I
don't need them to enjoy the book.

Task systems, now here is one I stayed out of, because  frankly
as a GM I  abuse them to my advantage that's what they are  for. 
If you want set percentages play AD&D or Role Master that's what all
those Combat tables are for.  If you don't like the half die or
another form of die combination then give players difficulty levels
with out the problems and use die modifiers.  It works trust me!!

Canon well this isn't it a religion its a GAME people, and Marc isn't
God he is a man. If he wants to change things he can its his game he
owns the copy right not you.

As for the other writers at IG I am sure they do their best, but they
cant read 100 books by what 4 companies in 3 different versions and
get things perfect. I know I couldn't and I don't think you can
either.

And for those of you who are Heretics thank you.  I may not like some
of things you do but its your game.  If I don't like your ideas or
game I don't have to use them or play in the game.

One last point the money has been spent and things are going to 
happen the way IG sees fit.

That just about dose it for me that's a months worth of rant saved 
up.

I feel better


Tim

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1328
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, May 16 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1329



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Public Opinion
Re: Grow UP!
Re: Ships in Port?
Re: ANCIENT Grandfather
Timothy Bradstreet
Re: Ships in Port?
Re: Ancients and jump-space
ship grapples and area
Re: Public Opinion
GURPS (was Re: Corps)
Re: ANCIENT Grandfather
Re: 1G accel?
Re: ancient Grandfather
Droyne jump drives?
Re: Ships in Port?
Re: ANCIENT Grandfather
Re: The Code Duello [was More EA Nits]
Re: Total BS
Roger Macbride Allen [off topic but bugging me]
Re: Contact: The Suerrat (History)
Re: Contact: The Suerrat (Biology)
Re: Corps

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 23:15:18 +0000
From: twolf@unix.tfs.net
Subject: Public Opinion

You are absolutely right about public opinion!  However, one person 
whining fifty times does not constitute public opinion.  Fifty 
customers complaining  once or twice does.  Especially if those fifty 
stop buying future products.

I gave my opinions on FS and several of the other debacles at IG.  I 
did it once and from now on I will check out future products very 
closely before buying them.  However, I will not continue to run over 
those dead horses.  Hitting them twenty, thirty or even fifty times 
will not make the horses any more dead!

JD
Twolf

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 05:22:49 BST
From: Eamon Watters <E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Grow UP!

twolf@unix.tfs.net sent:


>Kenneth wrote:

<Blurb complaining about First Survey Snipped> 
 
><Blurb about being sick of repeated complaints Snipped>

>HEY! Grow Up!

>You have the right to voice your opinion, but when IG doesn't take 
>your opinion or position, then move on.  If you don't like that they 
>didn't drop the 3 sided dice Fine!  Won't fix FS, Fine!  Don't buy IG 
>products!  GO write your own game but leave this whining , 
>whimpering, drool off the net.  It is a waste of bandwidth.

Actually this 'drool' should serve a purpose, that being to inform IG about 
the standards of their games, and how to please the fans that buy them.

I said 'should serve a purpose', because IG don't seem to listen to their
fans. 

It isn't childish - the fact that people are sending these mails to the list
is because they care about whats happening to Traveller.

Here's my own little message on the subject. I live in Belfast (Yes, THAT one).
I know 6 people who are heavilly into Traveller. None of them are impressed
by what IG has been putting out. None of them has been impressed by the 
price. None of them has been impressed by the way IG is treating it's
Traveller Fans.

There have been breaks in the cloud, CSC and Aliens Archive - but that's all
they were - breaks in the clouds, the sunlight soon faded.

IG: 6 traveller fans, none impressed with the way things are going.

Can someone at IG tell us what they are going to do about:
Prices.
Quality.
Errata.

Eamon.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 22:38:49 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Ships in Port?

At 09:38 pm 05/15/97 -0500, you wrote:
>David J. Golden said:
>> 	There's a couple of spreadsheets on my web site (yes, they're one of the
>> few things I've had time to get uploaded to the new site), based on the
>> World Builder's Handbook. One of them does starports--ships in port, number
>> of berths, startown facilities, transportation, warehousing, etc. Right now
>> all that's up is a Mac Excel version, but somebody was kind enough to
>> update them to Excel95 and email them to me. They're on the list for
>> uploading right after the Second Coming... (of Traveller, that is).
>
>They should be binary compatible... (have you seen Vehicle Factory at
>JumpSpace? Very nice use of Excelness)...

	Yeah, they should be. You have to use the "Unsit" program also posted to
extract them from the archive, and they worked with older versions of
Excel. But there was some problem (I don't recall what) loading them into
Excel95. Some kind soul whose name escapes me cleaned them up for Win95 for
me; I just haven't posted those.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 15:54:24 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: ANCIENT Grandfather

On Thu, 15 May 1997, P. ENGEBOS wrote:

[snip]
> > Assuming that there are more inteligent major races in the galaxy,
> > he choose the 6 we are familiar with, because these are the six which are
> > closest to the Droyne home world (where ever that is).
> 
> IIRC, the Droyne home world was in the Regina Subsector and is one of the
> worlds in grandfathers pocket dimension.  That's why no one has ever has
> found it.

Is it - cool!  I thought the three planets in the pocket dimension he
created was for those who were faithful to him in the Great War?  


PaChi,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


If you have to shoot, shoot.  Don't talk.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 22:00:44 -0700 (MST)
From: scharlto@rtd.com (Steve Charlton)
Subject: Timothy Bradstreet

Just a little "Age of GDW" trivia.  I just picked up some new Dc/Vertigo 
comics, including a 4-issue series about the Unknown Soldier (a character 
from way back when).  The covers on these looked a bit familiar, and I 
noticed this evening that they were done by Tim Bradstreet.  Tim used to do 
a lot of TW2000 artwork (and a little Traveller stuff, I think) for GDW.  

Nice to see his work again; one of the better military-theme artists, IMHO.

- ----------
Steven T. Charlton
scharlto@rtd.com 
I don't recall installing this 
"General Protection Fault" Screen Saver

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 00:35:12 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: Ships in Port?

	There's a couple of spreadsheets on my web site (yes, they're one of the
>few things I've had time to get uploaded to the new site), based on the
>World Builder's Handbook. One of them does starports--ships in port, number
>of berths, startown facilities, transportation, warehousing, etc. Right now
>all that's up is a Mac Excel version, but somebody was kind enough to
>update them to Excel95 and email them to me. They're on the list for
>uploading right after the Second Coming... (of Traveller, that is).
>-- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
>   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
Dave,

I have tried using the unstuffit using LF conversions and no conversions.
When I try and open it with or without updating links I get garbage. I am
using Excel 97 for Winblows 95. Could you try save them as sylk files and
send them to me uncompressed?


- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 22:28:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Ancients and jump-space

> Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:59:55 -0700
> From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <sudet@well.com>
> 
> >From: Douglas N Sinclair <sinclai@ecf.toronto.edu>
> 
> >I have further speculated, but not actually played, that jump-space
> >only works around known-space and the Zhodani core corridor.  This
> >would allow for Vinge style slow zones.
> 
> Another cool idea!  If the Ancients created jump space, they only put it
> where they were, and we're the lucky beneficiaries.  What's Vinge?  

Vernor Vinge, science fiction author (and a very good one).  In his _A
Fire Upon the Deep_ (which I *highly* recommend), he posits that the core
of the galaxy is surrounded by concentric very roughly spherical shells in
which physical laws get less and less restrictive.  Terra sits in the
'slow zone', between the *very* restrictive core and the 'beyond' where
most civilizations live.  In the slow zone, c is a hard speed limit; in
the beyond, it's not, and other neat tricks work as well.  As you move
outward things get looser and weirder until you reach the 'transcend', the
outermost region, in which deity-like beings dwell, some rather hostile,
some helpful.  It's a lovely setup, and a great story; it also is at least
marginally useful as Traveller source material.

His _Across Realtime_, though less Traveller-useful, is even better IMHO.
It's really two novellas with some connective material, but the whole
thing works well as a novel.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 00:54:34 -0500
From: The Stump Family <stumps@earthlink.net>
Subject: ship grapples and area

Two things;
One) Yes, modern (i.e. tech 8) armor can stand 12g impacts, BUT they are
not mobile arms capable of flexing andd 'grabbing' an object. Even
superdense materials may have difficulties holding onto massive,
unbalanced objects in the face of potential 1000+g stress (Think 1000+ g
is excessive? If the 'main' ship is on full accel. and in a high-g
'spin' the effective force on the grapple could exceed 100g if the ship
has to maneuver. And what if a missle hits the far end of your
'whirlagig'?).
Two) The grapples are capable of holding ANY SHAPED vessel of the
tonnage, right? The builders don't necessarily know the shape of the
ship or the desired placement. Sphere, needle, up, down, it can be
grabbed so the ability to grab it requires a great deal more space than
is used individually - I think the 'footprint' numbers you give are
great - but the grapple probably still needs all of that area. 

my soapbox is back in the closet.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 23:59:35 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Public Opinion

At 11:15 pm 05/15/97 +0000, you wrote:
>You are absolutely right about public opinion!  However, one person 
>whining fifty times does not constitute public opinion.  Fifty 
>customers complaining  once or twice does.  Especially if those fifty 
>stop buying future products.

	Actually, fifty customers complaining fifty times constitutes a lot more
public opinion than fifty customers complaining once.

	And it doesn't count as one person complaining many times, if the core of
each complaint is different. Complaining about the task system, and then
complaining about the M0/FS screwup isn't whining, even if you repeat your
complaint about the task system at the same time. Lawyers might call that
establishing a pattern of behavior on IG's part.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 23:16:26 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: GURPS (was Re: Corps)

[Sorry, screw this up so I'll resend it...]
Thu, 15 May 1997 12:32:37 +0100,  anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
> Are there any attempts at adding Traveller j-drives to GURPS vehicles? If
> anybody has seen work done in that regard please inform us (URL or
> whatever) were to find it.

I've worked through this (with MegaTraveller) and it all comes
down to how close you want to be how they work in Traveller.
In general, you can take the weight and volume of the drive
(or any other component) out of Traveller and just stick
it into a vehicle being designed under GURPS.  Alternately
you just pick the FTL drive that most fits how Traveller
works (I think it is a "hyperspace" drive but I'm not
sure, GURPS uses a different terminology for types of>FTL drives) and pump
up the fuel needs a lot to reflect
the consumption of a Traveller jump drive.  (or not if
you don't care if you players need to worry about fuel
as much).

I have an Imperial scout designed with Vehicles 1st Ed. at...
ftp://ftp.io.com/pub/GURPSnet/Worlds/Traveller/

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:06:54 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: ANCIENT Grandfather

>> Assuming that there are more inteligent major races in the galaxy,
>> he choose the 6 we are familiar with, because these are the six which are
>> closest to the Droyne home world (where ever that is).

Not the case - there are several sophonts in the Spinward marches alone -
much closer to Droyne homeworld than say Aslans or Kkree.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:12:00 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: 1G accel?

>Hate to butt in but also what is the max velocity a ship could obtain
>using 1G accel. and assuming unlimited time and fuel? Is there an
>upper limit dictated by the ship's strucure, or can it keep accel. at
>1G, 2G, 3G wahtever depending on the manuver drive and limited by
>the speed of light?
>Just curious.
>Dave

Yes it can (sort of, the perceived acceleration by an outside observer
would start to slack off as it approached lightspeed but those in the ship
would not notice it). There was some thought on the list about speed
problems for ships due to hitting solar wind particles with higher and
higher energies. Solar wind particles travel at about the same speed as a
ship with 1G accelerating for 1 day would have. So if you boost for 2 days
you'd get about x4 energy from solar wind particles and so on.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:16:43 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: ancient Grandfather

>this premise sounds soothingly like a variation on the situation in the
>Hyperion books...I'm sure the masses will pitch a tizzy, but I like it!
>
>-j

What are the Hyperion books? Who is the Author? Maybe I can sue ;)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 10:20:41 +0300 (EET DST)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: Droyne jump drives?

Hi!

Has anybody else noticed this slight flaw in MT : In one of the books, I
think it is the playe's manual, there is a text box about jump drives.
This text states something like this : "Droyne-built jump drives are the
best in the galaxy." Well, since only Droyne to have JD in a long time is
Grandfather and his offspring... Could this refer to GD's hand-built
jump drives.... B-)  Advertising : "If You are not capable of finding us,
You do not need Our drives"
 
Mikko Parviainen

http://www.hut.fi/~mvparvia

I modem, but they grew back.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:34:37 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Ships in Port?

>Here's a quickie question.
>
>I was wondering what the best way to determine the number and type of
>ships in port to be.  You know, the characters are on a planet for a
>while, and you need to determine the number of ships at the starport
>on a given day for whatever reason.
>
>Do any of you other GMs out there have a system for this?
>
>Kenneth.

There was a system in one of the Journals but I think they seriously
underestimate the number of ships. I had a system based on Pop and port
type but cannot seem to find it anymore - I'll post it if I dig it up.
BTW Does anybody remember the old White Dwarf article about starports with
really good illustrations on how landing bays etc might look? Does anybody
use it? I am about to make detailed maps on those parkbays and possibly
also some 3D renderings to show the players.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:28:23 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: ANCIENT Grandfather

>> The last quote is some evidence that grandfather "gave" jump tech to the
>> major races. How else would he know which ones were to be major long before
>> they actually became major races? Especially troublesome is the fact that
>> Aslans are on the Coyns as they have lately been proven not to be major.
>
>Whos to say that he new, or even cared who would be the major races?
>Also, your assuming he uses the same gauge we use to measure a major race
>- jump drive.  Maybe he uses sentinent's not technology?

This is even more sinister. Grandfather doesn't care or know about the six
races he picked on the Coyns later development of j-drives on their own,
neither did he help them do it. This implies that whatever method
grandfather used to pick these six races out of I'd say several hundred
sentient races at the time also with 100% hit rate nailed them as
independent j-drive developers. What strange innate ability does the major
races have that grandfather could detect that is ESSENTIAL to inventing
j-drives. This leads credence to the racist theory that somehow minor races
really are inferior and could NEVER have developed j-drives themselves.

Enough to put even a Virushi into berserker rage.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:48:51 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: The Code Duello [was More EA Nits]

>3.  Women in the Imperium have total equality with men as a
>matter of law (and longstanding canon).  Noblewomen will therefore
>participate in the conventions of duelling.  How does this affect
>the subject, if at all?  N.B. your comments:

There (I'm shure) will be lots of seminaked ladies with long hair and
chromeplated bikinis on future IG product covers ;)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:59:27 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Total BS

>A bad one.  I will not purchase any more product from IG until I am *sure*
>that it is well written and resonably free of stupid mistakes.  They are
>losing a customer who has in the past gone to great lengths to be the first
>on his block to get the new Traveller material.. now I have a gamestore
>that will ship it to me unpaid, and I'm not interested.  Something is very
>wrong here!

Look at CSC undoubtedly the best from IG so far. Then you scratch a little
on the surface and what: A design system that negates lots of what has been
said about M0, armour rules that are incompatible with EVERYTHING, TL 15
first Imperium artifacts etc.

It seems IG decides on a name of a product, waits until 1 month before
going to the printers and calls somebody with lots of cred in the game
business but with NO knowledge of Traveller to whip it out then gives the
artjob to the lowest bidder and doubles the cover price to make up for low
volume. I do NOT believe that Marc or the other guys at IG ever play T4 -
they shure hadn't playtested T4 otherwise they'd noticed the 2.5D6
stupidity after 5 minutes of gaming.

IMNSHO T4 will never be fixed or OK or anything neither from IG nor from us
at the list but that is fine with me as it saves me a bundle and I can work
up something myself.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:06:35 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Roger Macbride Allen [off topic but bugging me]

Mentioned in passing on TML:
>Roger Macbride Allen <sp?> wrote a two-book series,
><snip titles and other info>

This has been bugging me for some time now and I can't think of another way
of finding out but hoping there's a US guru there who might be able to
help.

I assume this is the same Roger Macbride Allen who writes the supposedly
Asimov style Robot books.

But is it the *same* Roger Macbride Allen who writes the more recent Little
House on the Praire books?

Nothing in *either* lot of books suggests this is the case but the
coincidence seems astonishing if they're not the same person.  (Both
writing 'continuations' of other people's work.)

As my wife and I can never usually find an author we both enjoy [1]
reading, we'd be really interested to know one way or the other.

Many thanks and sorry to be so off topic but I don't know who else to turn
to!

tc
timothy.collinson



[1]  Although 'enjoy' might be too strong a word about the robot books.
'workmanlike' maybe.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 11:36:51 +0200
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com> (by way of Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>)
Subject: Re: Contact: The Suerrat (History)

...and this, too.
- --------------
(Message from Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com> follows)
- --------------

Quoth Carlos Alos-Ferrer:
>         Another possibility to explain the not-very-patient Suerrat ("eager
> colonists") decades-long trips to the stars would be to assume that they
> used low-berths, but it has already been stated (Imperial Encyclopedia,
> IIRC), that they relied indeed in generation ships. So, the question is: Why
> didn't they use Low Berth? Maybe a natural dislike about being "freezed"?
> For the Suerrat, who originated in warm jungles, the "hell" would be a very
> cold place...

Interesting point...  I had just assumed that they didn't develop low-berth
technology, for one reason or another.  After all, being frozen for the
trip would appeal to an impulsive being....
 
> >Eventually, of course, some Vilani merchant sold the Suerrat the plans
> >for the jump-1 drive, and the next era of Suerrat expansion began. 
> 
>         At that time, the Vilani kept the Jump Drive secret fairly well. I
> was not until the last days of the Ziru Sirka that they started to lose
> control of tehcnology in the borders of the Empire... better keep the
> Suerrat obtaining of the Jump technology as a not-very-clear issue... maybe
> some far-range Geonee merchants gave them the technology, they were the only
> other starfaring race with Jump Drive at that time.

That's possible -- but the history, as I read it, seems fairly clear that
the Consolidation Wars happened _because_ of technology leakage across the
borders and the Vilani desire to forcibly bring those peoples inside the
control of the Ziru Sirka.  They did indeed keep the Jump-2 drive secret:
that was the "secret weapon" that let them win the Consolidation Wars.

>         Surely the Suerrat encountered some minor races in their
> playground... What was their attitude towards them?

Haven't gotten there yet.  I envision some race right on the edge of the
rift at the rimward edge of Ilelish, since there's a small outgrowth of
the mixed-bureaux area there.  But Ilelish is very notably devoid of much
news or history in the Traveller universe.

There is, actually, a Droyne world located about a subsector spinward of
Ilelish, according to the CT Alien Module.  I've wondered whether they
would make the Droyne-Ancients connection, but I think that bypasses the
mystery that's supposed to last until 1100 Imperial.

Your point, however, is a good one.  I'll check out the nearby world data
and see if anything cries out for a minor race.

>         Very nice bit. Nevertheless, the three corporations supported
> whole-heartedly the Consolidation Wars... in Massilia, Sharurshid was
> desperately needing a major move against the Geonee competition.

Oh, but of course.  I just wanted to show that Naasirka might support it
more whole-heartedly, being the only bureau without a border to expand
through.
 
>         So, probably the Naasirka masters sponsored widespread establishment
> of Vilani and other races colonies even in the traditional Suerrat
> playground, to build up a better labour force.

Exactly, which explains why, despite extensive STL and then jump-drive
colonization for thousands of years, the Suerrat are no longer a major
ethnic group in the region (Dlan sounds pretty Vilani/Solomani dominated
by the time of the Rebellion).
 
- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 11:35:22 +0200
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com> (by way of Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>)
Subject: Re: Contact: The Suerrat (Biology)

Due to some technical problems with the TL8 email, Joseph asked me to
redirect this to the list...
- -----------------
(Message from Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com> follows)
- -----------------
Quoth Carlos Alos-Ferrer:
>         Excellent work, Joseph. Another longly cited, not-so-minor race is
> added to the Traveller Universe.

Thanks, Carlos.  That means a lot, coming from you.
 
>         Two notes here. First, (according to MT's Ref's Manual) the
> habitable zone for an F5 V star, and hence, I assume that also for an F4 V
> one, is orbit 4, which is 1.6 AU. You are putting Ilelish at orbit 5, which
> would be in the Outer zone (cold and inhospitable). Of course,m at only 1.6
> AU, the year will be shorter, so some minor changes would be required.

I noted that, but the math for the closer orbit (from DGP's Worldbuilder's
Handbook)  ended up making the planet woefully hot.  So either the
planetary-temperature math or the habitable-zone table are wrong. 
Personally, given how much brighter an F4 is than our own G2, I have no
trouble believing Ilelish needs to be out in a Jupiter-size orbit. 

Before someone brings it up, since the footnote in the original word-
processor document didn't make it into ASCII, let me point out that the
"canonical" sector data gives Ilelish a M0 D sun.  Yeah, right.  HIWG
library data gives the Suerrat homeworld as Volomil/Miitan, which appears
as Vesper in the sector data with a F4 D sun.  I throw out these
"canonical" items, first since I think it's ludicrous to try to detail
every world in areas never described in any depth in existing Traveller
literature, and second because it contradicts what development work there
is (I _could_ do a minor human race that evolved in orbit around a white
dwarf... but not this time around).  So I've taken the spectral type from
Volomil but the location of Ilelish and "turned the sun up" to a main-
sequence stellar class.
 
>         Second, atmosphere is Standard/TAINTED. What is the taint? How does
> it affect the Suerrat's breathing capabilities? I see two possibilities here:

I like both your points (high CO2 and endemic disease), and will consider
them.  My "take" on the taint didn't make it into the uploaded version of 
the write-up.  As I envisioned it, pre-Ilelish revolt the taint consists
of a profusion of pollen, etc. from the local flora that can cause severe
allergic reactions in non-native humans.  Post-Ilelish revolts its air-
borne dust from the equatorial deserts created by Imperial orbital
bombardment.  :-)

>         The nose is more prominent because it holds a filtering system which
> allows the Suerrat to breath Ilelish tainted atmosphere...?

Hm, more developed turbinates to catch and hold pollen?  (Suerrat sneeze
frequently?)  I like it....
 
>         Not very patient, are they? A very minor comment: This does not fit
> perfectly well with the Slower-than-light colonization efforts.

If there's no other way to get there, but you're hot to go, you take
what's available.  Patience doesn't enter into it, except in trying to
design your STL vessel to go as fast as possible....  But, yes, I envision
a certain amount of stubborness as well.

Basically, as you can probably tell, I'm setting up the Suerrat as a
minority with obvious reasons to be disliked and oppressed (strange
feet, weird sex and don't wear clothes, "lazy," "impulsive," etc.),
which can feed back to give them plausible reasons to be "villains"
in a Milieu:0 setting or later.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 10:43:47 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Corps

>> Lethal is cutting/penetrating damage (knife wounds, gunshots, etc.) it
>> has the potential to kill you, using the eventualy fatal and instant kill
>> rolls.  Non'lethal is a punch in the jaw.. very hard to kill somebody,
>> but you can knock them cold.

Actually not. You can kill people with blunt trauma. In movies as in most
RPGs there is a sharp distinction between penetrating and blunt damage. In
the real world(tm) however blunt trauma can also kill but not as easy. If
you're hit by a car or fall off a building you get hurt from blunt trauma
which can both kill you instantly or make you bleed to death.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1329
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, May 16 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1330



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Virus
Ships in Port?
Fix for starports in FS (was: IG Pricing Policy)
RE: First Survey error's?
RE: First Survey error's?
RE: First Survey error's?
Re: Grow UP!
Re: IG Pricing Policy
Re: Public Opinion
Re: IG Pricing Policy, and Hey Joe!
Re: The Long Way Home (errata et al)
T4 quality
Re: ANCIENT Grandfather
RE: First Survey error's?
Re: 1G accel?
Re: 1G accel?
Darmine (was Re: Contact: The Suerrat (History))
Re: 1G accel?
KBv2.0

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 10:51:41 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Virus

>        Speaking of Virus, has anybody thought of a jump-capable
>version?  I mean that the virus could hitch a ride on a starship into
>jump space, jump off and just wait in jump space for another ship to
>come by.  Jump Space is so mysterious, it might not actually break
>canon.

Sounds like B5 to me.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 10:04:22 +0100
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: Ships in Port?

"Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com> asked about Ships in Port?

>I was wondering what the best way to determine the number and type of 
>ships in port to be...
>Do any of you other GMs out there have a system for this?

I have previously mentioned on TML that I have a system currently under
construction for randomly generating starport types, sizes and details such
as number of ships of various sizes, etc. We at CORE were hopefully going to
include this in the upcoming Starports and Cities book, however a
page-down-sizing situation means that it won't be, so instead, it should
appear in the nearish (Oct 2003) future as a 101 book from BITS. However, it
does assume that you have generated more details about a system than are
given in the basic T4 rules - i.e. more like the WBH type detail. It also
covers things like multiple starports on a world, in-system transport
between multiple planets, etc. To coordinate with that, I am hoping to issue
a 101 book to cover some more of that level of detail of planetary systems.

Andy :-)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:29:39 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Fix for starports in FS (was: IG Pricing Policy)

>From: Jason Anderson <midnight@kagi.com>
>Subject: Re: IG Pricing Policy
>Well, the law=gov I don't really care about, and the explaination given by
>IG is plausable (although Vland having next to no population and the data
>not matching M0, and.. are all problems that can't be explained away).
>However, what gets me is the starport problem - I'm sorry, but I don't
>agree that there should be that many A class and B class starports.
>Certainly not in M0 anyway.

        That is indeed a big problem. After a careful examination of the
data in Massilia sector (sorry, I devote myself to one sector: no time for
more), I noticed that there is an easy way to fix it. It works pretty well
for Massilia sector, but may not be good for other sectors (after all, the
Vland data has the "dozens of worlds at TL 0 with good starports" problem,
and other sectors not, so there ARE differences).

        Anyway, the fix is the following:

============================================================================
========
        Warning: Heretic rule creating non-canon, alternate M0 Universe
============================================================================
========
        Take all worlds with starport B
        1) If the World is Barren, then change starport to X (and TL to 0)
        2) If the World is Low Pop, then change starport to E (and decrease
TL by 4)
============================================================================
========

        It's really amazing how this simple manipulation of the data changes
the appearance of the sector. After it, the look of Massilia is really what
it should be in M0. Two problems were: Too much B starports, and many of
them in Low Pop or Barren worlds. AND: too few E starports, and NO X
starports. This change solves both, and it's easy. Gosh, the Shokee sector
has just three or four important worlds, and the rest are Barren or LoPop in
FS, but almost all of them have B starport. After the change, the subsector
is simply a backwater, almost unexplored one, with a cluster of developed
worlds in the coreward part (near the Geonee Confederation).
        Other subsectors in Massilia have a better appearance after the
change. I haven't checked other sectors.

        Of course, after this fix, you are heretic, as FS is now *canon*,
but... who cares? The point is, if you want to change the data to something
more appealing, this *rule of thumb* is quick and really improves things.
Maybe a simple set of rules of thumb could fix most of the problems in FS...
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:42:08 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: RE: First Survey error's?

>From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
>On Wed, 14 May 1997, Scott Ellsworth wrote:
>> Possible data errors, or at least things that need addressing:
>> 1.  Vland has far too few people to be an industrial power that matters.
>> In general, populations are small enough that I would be very concerned
>> about the ability of many of these world to maintain an industrial base.
>Population is the number of permanent residents of a given world.  So, 
>where is Vland getting those workers?  Are they, in year 0, engaging in 
>slavery and not considering slaves permanent residents (i.e., not 

        An extreme Sparta-type society would be too astounding not to be
cited. I do not like this explanation. But there is an easy one, and you
yourself suggest it...

>> 3.  Worlds that would have to be stopped at en route to Shudusham or Vland
>> do not have full data.  Shudusham has been a member since -112.
>Yes, why would the Imperium not wish to publish that data?  Recall that 
>the data in the first half of FS is what was published for public 
>consumption and/or is generally known.  The stuff in the back is what the 
>Imperium knows (or will know once it expands far enough).  So, why 
>wouldn't the Imperium reveal the names and data for those worlds?  Hmmm.  
>Maybe the Imperium has an agenda?

        ...and the data in the second half of FS is what the Imperium
"normal" agencies know. The data for Vland is ***TOP SECRET***, and not even
the imperial bureaucrats have access to the real figures. And why is it so?
Because Vland is far away from the Imperial core in Year Zero, and so it's
in an exposed situation. The Vilani wanted to keep secret their real
economic and military potential, and so they declared the pop figure SECRET.
The Imperium agreed with it, and the real data is only known by certain
agencies. You go to Vland, and there are clearly more than one thousand of
millions of people there, and you ask, "Hey, I have this data here, and it
says the Pop is low!", and you are told "You are not cleared for this
information. Please come with us, we have to talk to you".
        In my universe, Vland is going to be Hi Pop, that's for sure.


- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:44:06 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: RE: First Survey error's?

- -> > > However, as a DM, i would have preferred a book for the DM, that 
- -> > > contained all the data *I* need, not just the data the players know...
- -> > > If i need data for the players, i make those maps or lists myself!
- -> > > As a DM Tool, the book is nigh to unuseable! 
- -> > 
- -> > FS has complete data for referee's, and partial data for players.  The 
- -> > only "full data" item missing is maps with every world marked.  So, what 
- -> > you're saying is that you would have preferred that FS contain full maps 
- -> > instead of (or in addition to) the partial maps already in there?  
Bingo!
As a DM, i need full maps to get inspired. When i *Create*, i look at 
the map (of the SM), look at the starlanes, the world names and the 
starports and slowly, ideas form! But incomplete maps dont do that 
for me!

- -> 
- -> I personally would have prefferred that it cover a smaller area and give
- -> more details on individual worlds and/or subsectors.
And more Bingo! More detailed data is precisely one of the main 
missing parts of the book!Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:51:31 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: RE: First Survey error's?

- -> > FS has complete data for referee's, and partial data for players.  The 
- -> > only "full data" item missing is maps with every world marked.  So, what 
- -> > you're saying is that you would have preferred that FS contain full maps 
- -> > instead of (or in addition to) the partial maps already in there?  
- -> > 
- -> 
- -> No Joe, FS does NOT have full data...Despite any desperate handwaving
- -> coming from IG, they screwed up and did not put in the proper LAW or GOV
- -> code, whichever it is (since they're both the same, I don't know which is 
- -> right, now, do I). 
That's one of my main problems with the book as well!
- -> 
- -> No matter what handwaving the IG does to dispel the fact that FS was
- -> seriously flawed from a players AND a GM's viewpoint, short of making the
- -> corrected version available, somewhere, they're losing a bunch of T4
- -> players, and worse, evangelists over this. So far I've been told that I
- -> have to REPURCHASE just about everything I've bought, if I want usable
- -> data OR corrections. This is a crappy way to treat customers. 
The most sensible approach for all of us would have been not to buy 
ANY IG products of the first year and only some of the second, since 
they will be republished anyway in a corrected form, so what's the 
use of the first editions of those books (I'll tell you: Diddly-Squat) 
The only problem with this sensible approach is that IG would either 
already be out of business again, i we hadn't gotten involved with 
their product and promoted it everywhere, and second that there 
wouldn't be any errata, since we on the TML did all the work of 
finding the problems and pointing them out to IG!
And for this effort to make their product better, we are in fact 
being punished by IG. That's not fair and no wise approach for a 
company that relies to a big extent on us oldtimers to push their 
product...



Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:04:22 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Grow UP!

- -> RICH! as for me.. hay T4 is gone from my list... and IG is goto
- -> be the worst company yet.. with mistakes like they make.. no wonder they
IG the worst company? I disagree! They made some mistakes and their 
concern for us oldtimers, well, stinks, but there is still hope on 
the horizon and I am still, secretly, hoping they will get their act 
together! (Although i sometimes wish that MM had sold the Traveller 
license to SJG, which i believe to be the best RPG company around!)Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:09:33 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: IG Pricing Policy

- -> > Tell me about it, my shelf of Traveller stuff is a testament to my 
- -> > fanhood. I'm expanding my horizons a bit, though. I'm sure I'll get EA, 
- -> > but I am going to be careful and choose new Traveller materials wisely. 
- -> > It's kinda sad, 'cuz there was a time where I'd gobble anything up 
- -> > Traveller that had DGP's name on it, but IG hasn't yet instilled that 
I completely agree. I wish that IG would finally grant the NEW DGP 
the license to rerelease their old books. I mean, T$ is suppoosed to 
be a multi-genre game, so a foray into M:REebellion and m: ffw won't 
do much harm now, won't it?
 Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:23:12 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Public Opinion

> You are absolutely right about public opinion!  However, one person 
- -> whining fifty times does not constitute public opinion.  Fifty 
- -> customers complaining  once or twice does.  Especially if those fifty 
- -> stop buying future products.
But starting to vote with my wallet ias not an option for me. I WANT 
IG to succeed, and i WANT german distributors to carry their product, 
because i WANt more Tx players... 
I as one of the proud and few proponents of Tx in Germany stop 
buying, others will to, and the shops won't carry Tx anymore, so i 
wont get T4 products later on anymore, even if they improve in 
quality! 

> Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:16:25 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: IG Pricing Policy, and Hey Joe!

- -> > I really really liked M:0 (except for the map and the sector data) and 
- -> > told everyone to go get it, didn't I?
- -> 
- -> Ah, you're right, I had forgotten that.  I apologize.
No problemo!
- -> I don't know all the circumstances at IG or in the RPG marketplace, but 
- -> it seems that a reasonable course to pursue would be to handle it like 
- -> the old High Guard 2nd Ed. - put the additional material in JTAS, spread 
- -> out over three issues.  That would work for the customers, I'll bet, and 
- -> it shouldn't be much of a hardship for IG.  But, again, I probably don't 
- -> know what I'm talking about.
I like that concept, i really do! All we need now is an IG-Inside 
man (maybe a freelancer) to promote that idea with them....[g]

- -> > No the best idea would have been to publish the errata on the 
- -> > page for people to download (That's what it's there for, innit?) 
- -> > make the data available on computer readable format! Doesn't 
- -> > cost much and eases peoples minds!
- -> 
- -> I thought about that last night, and the conclusion I came to was that 
- -> would be a non-optimal solution.  They could put the full data up there 
- -> (the world name and UWP for each world, with a corrected Law Level for 
- -> each world (except good ol' Sylea - anyone else note that Sylea is the 
- -> only world in FS that has a law level that differs from its government 
- -> type?)), but that would deter people from buying First Survey, Second 
Well we who have it shouldn't be forced to buy it again anyways.

- -> Edition (a hypothetical volume having the corrected data in it).  Or, 
Which you told us wouldn't appear since the FS data is *CORRECT*!

- -> they could just put the world name and law level on the web site, but 
- -> that would be very awkward to use, requiring users to flip back and forth 
- -> between First Survey and the data downloaded from the web site.
I disagree: If one he the name and law level, one could insert it in 
the listing with pencil. As most of us work with their books anyway, 
that wouldn't be much of a problem!Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:27:10 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: The Long Way Home (errata et al)

- -> "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de> then said:
- -> 
- -> >I am only asking  that i don't have to regret buying TLWH's first 
- -> >edition (Don't get me wrong, i *adored* the book! I just hope that 
- -> >ALL the new thingies will be available to me somehow without having 
- -> >to buy the book again! I like coplete collections ;-)) 
- -> 
- -> We can make errata for our TLWH available on our web site, but I shall have
- -> to check the stuff for the IG version. Put simply, there were sections we
- -> designed for the original TLWH which didn't fit into the 100 pages, but
- -> which are being integrated into the two 64 page books for IG ("The Long Way
- -> Home" and "Gateway"). These additions are obviously our own work, created
- -> outside of IG's brief, and thus might in some form appear on the web page,
- -> however we have to respect the very restrictive contracts IG places upon us
- -> once they buy our work.
- -> 
- -> Basically, I'll sort out with Tim Brown and Marc Miller what is allowed -
- -> they're both very reasonable guys and I'm sure will allow us some leeway on
- -> this issue for our original customers, provided we don't compromise their IG
- -> sales.
I understand and appreciate that. Let me thank you in advance already!Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 07:35:51 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: T4 quality

	I bought the T4 manual.  I doubt I'll buy any more first edition T4
materials: I'm assuming that IG is going to get its act together and
re-release improved and re-edited materials at some point a la White Wolf,
or go under.

	In the meantime, I'm doing up another campaign, titled "Traveller:
Beyond the Pale" (What with my players, I figured that I might as well
acknowledge the inevitable in the title :>) using Ken Bearden's KB V2.0,
Glenn Grant's hit location table, the SSDS & VDS beta .pdfs for ship &
vehicle design, and FF&S for little details such as honking big handguns
and alternate tech spacecraft.  I've done my own subsectors (it's going to
be set in a small cluster of G&K type stars about 6 parsecs into the Rift
in Vland sector) based on Ethan Henry's subsector viewer.  I've been trying
to use Rob Prior's Metator, but since I've been plagued by crashes I've
gone and used Accrete to generate systems, fleshed out by use of
MegaTraveller world generation systems.

	To be honest, as a newbie, I'm pretty disappointed by T4.  Had I
gone about re-launching Traveller, I would have simply done it in the
following order: 1) get as perfect a set of mechanics as possible worked
up, with a good task system, integrated design systems, and so forth, 2)
collate all the incredible wealth of background info that has been done for
this game over the past 20 years, and 3) release.  Milieu and other
supplements and so forth would come next...

	As it is I'm seeing generally blah products that don't do justice
to what went before.  So until IG gets its act together I'm going to
continue winging it as I'm doing now.

	BTW, some of you may recall I posted session synopses of our last
campaign on a regular basis.  Anyone want to see these again for this round
of carnage?



R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 03:29:11 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: ANCIENT Grandfather

> Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:28:23 +0100
> From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
> Subject: Re: ANCIENT Grandfather

> >> The last quote is some evidence that grandfather "gave" jump tech  > >>to the major races. How else would he know which ones were to be    > >>major long before they actually became major races?

He is psionic !

Yes he could have helped the major races but why would he want to. 
Since we know that the Ancient artifact the Zhodhani have that prompted
them to do the Core Expiditions gives accurate representations of the
future is it really so hard to imagine that Yaskodray knew they were
going to be important later & stuck pictures of them on the coyns to
help socialize the Droyne about who they were going to have to deal
with.

> >> Especially troublesome is the fact that
> >> Aslans are on the Coyns as they have lately been proven not to be > >>major.

He psionically saw then ruling whole sectors of space & figured that
made them important enough to stick on the coyns.

[snip]

> This is even more sinister. Grandfather doesn't care or know about the > six races he picked on the Coyns later development of j-drives on     > their own, neither did he help them do it. This implies that whatever > method grandfather used to pick these six races out of I'd say several > hundred sentient races at the time also with 100% hit rate nailed them > as independent j-drive developers.

Further evidence it was procognition.

> What strange innate ability does the major races have that grandfather > could detect that is ESSENTIAL to inventing j-drives. This leads      > credence to the racist theory that somehow minor races really are     > inferior and could NEVER have developed j-drives themselves.
> Enough to put even a Virushi into berserker rage.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:20:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brett Fishburne <bfish@atlantech.net>
Subject: RE: First Survey error's?

Perhaps they will call it the Correct survey?

Brett

At 12:57 PM 5/15/97 +0000, Kenneth Bearden wrote:
>
>> I personally would have prefferred that it cover a smaller area and give
>> more details on individual worlds and/or subsectors.
>
>Me too.  And, they shouldn't have called it First Survey.  What are 
>they going to call the real First Survey when they get to it?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:38:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brett Fishburne <bfish@atlantech.net>
Subject: Re: 1G accel?

This makes me wonder -- doesn't the rate of acceleration increase as the
fuel load decreases?  If F=ma then a=F/m which means that as the mass
decreases the force increases.  Or are the numbers so huge that the change
in F is negligable?  Wouldn't this require some sort of integral to
calculate accurately?

Brett

At 05:56 PM 5/15/97 -0400, Larry Hadley wrote:
>
>On Wed, 14 May 1997, Merrick Burkhardt wrote:
>> > A ship in normal space with 1g of blast acceleration would travel how
>> > fast/far?  An answer in km/hour would be cool if anyone knows of the top
>> > of thier heads.  Thanks.
>> 
>> It depends on how long you have the drives lit up.
>> 
>> The velocity (in meters per second) of a ship at 1g is:
>> 
>> V = (9.8)t^2
>>     --------
>> 	2
>
>   More to the point, top speed is governed by total fuel-mass available.
>(delta-vee)
>
>   A lower acceleration spacecraft might actually have more mass available
>to use for fuel, and thus have a higher total delta-vee - resulting in a
>higher top-speed.
>
>-- DLH                                 lhadley@peterboro.net
>
>http://www.peterboro.net/~lhadley/Profile.html
>
>  "Fight to fly, fly to fight, fight to win." - TOPGUN motto.
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:17:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brett Fishburne <bfish@atlantech.net>
Subject: Re: 1G accel?

Don't you also need to consider proximity to large masses as they can
accelerate or decelerate a ship passing by?

Brett

At 05:45 PM 5/15/97 -0600, David J. Golden wrote:
>At 03:07 pm 05/15/97 +1000, you wrote:
>>
>>A ship in normal space with 1g of blast acceleration would travel how
>>fast/far?  An answer in km/hour would be cool if anyone knows of the top
>>of thier heads.  Thanks.
>
>	1G of acceleration tells me nothing about "how fast/how far." To determine
>how fast, you have to tell me how long you're accelerating. To determine
>how far, the answer is forever until it hits something. A few useful equations
>
>	d= distance
>	a= acceleration
>	v= velocity
>	t= time elapsed
>	v0= initial velocity (at t=0)
>
>	d= 0.5*a*t^2 + v0*t
>	v= a*t
>
>	
>-- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
>   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
>    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***
>
> "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
>  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
>  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 05:23:32 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Darmine (was Re: Contact: The Suerrat (History))

> 
> Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 11:36:51 +0200
> From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <> (by way of Carlos Alos-Ferrer
 <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>)
> Subject: Re: Contact: The Suerrat (History)
> 
> ...and this, too.
> - --------------
> (Message from Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com> follows)
> - --------------
[snip]

> >         Surely the Suerrat encountered some minor races in their
> > playground... What was their attitude towards them?
> 
> Haven't gotten there yet.  I envision some race right on the edge of
>the
> rift at the rimward edge of Ilelish, since there's a small outgrowth 
>of
> the mixed-bureaux area there.  But Ilelish is very notably devoid of
 >much
> news or history in the Traveller universe.

How about the Darmine in Zarushagar ?  It may be a bit rimward of what
you were thinking of but I think they would go well, it is in the mixed
bureaux area. I have had a clear image of them in my mind for a while
that I have been meaning to write up & your excellent work has
prompted me to start.

MT's Imperial Encyclopedia says (and Joe Heck's Missouri
Archive repeats)

Darmine

Cultural region in the Zarushagar sector. Darmine had a separate but
submerged cultural identity within the First Imperium and happily
threw off that domination when the First Imperium fell. 

Allowed to flourish by the Rule of Man, the community of worlds
survived the Long Night with little harm. Darmine was the major
focus of the Ilelish Pacification Campaign (76 to 120).

MT's Referee's Manual shows (pg 102 Cultural regions of the
Imperium) that the Darmine cultural region occupies
subsectors K, L, O, & P of Zarushagar.

Clayton R Bushes Traveller racelist says
 
MINOR HUMAN RACE      SOURCE*                    HOMEWORLD
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

*Darmine            Darmine cultual region     Zarushagar
1323         								        Ishag/Liasdi

(an * indicates unofficial data)

DGP's Second Survey Data says

Ishag         1323 B525966-A  N Hi In              515 Im G1 VI

(although that star really should be changed to G1 V not G1 VI)

When I saw this data the first thing I wondered about was the 
atmosphere, while it is not inconceivable that a minor human
race could exist on a planet with a very thin tainted atmosphere
it seemed a bit implausible.

Therefore I decided that Ishag's atmosphere used to be a type 7
standard density tainted.  The Vilani had repressed the Darmine
quite a bit after conquering them & had started to exploit the
planet rather extensively.  Through a means I have not yet 
determined the Vilani managed to destroy more than 75% of the 
planets atmosphere & most of its population both Darmine and
Vilani settler (possibly they discovered the Ancient site
that must have been present on a minor races home planet & 
pushed the wrong button).  The Darmine were pretty upset with 
the Vilani over this as you can imagine & the Vilani blamed 
the Darmine for their deaths & financial setbacks.  Many
Darmine left Ishag at this point to live & work on more
habitable planets.  They filled a role somewhat akin to that
played by Jews in Europe or ethnic Chinese in southeast asia,
a discriminated against minority who were disproportionally
merchantile.  The Vilani did not welcome the competition and
Darmine/Vilani animosity grew to become hatred.

Ishag is a small world only 7442 km in diameter that managed
to retain an Earthlike gravity (1.03 g) and atmospheric
denisty (formerly 1.1 atmosphere now 0.286 atmosphere) 
only by virtue of its very high density of 1.7.  Ishag is very
metal rich, especially in copper.  These metals will poison
any non Darmine who eats crops grow in its soil or breathes
its air without a filter.  Darmine heavy metal tolerance tends
to be about 20 times higher than that of other human races.
Darmine chelate out most of this metal due to Ancient genetic
engineering.  Some of these metals, especially the copper, show
up in their hair & fingernails.  This leads to the distincive
(and attractive) blue or green haired appearance common among
Darmine.  If a Darmine does not ingest enough copper their
hair will fade to a whiteish blonde.

Most Darmine are followers of the Telor faith which has been
the single most important factor in their lives.  The Telor 
faith is a polytheistic one (World Builders Handbook profile
34A888-A)  Telor has some structural similarities to Hinduism
and is primarily focused on the number four.  To a believer it
is almost a sure thing that _anything_ that happens in fours (or
multiples or fractions of 4) has an inner meaning that should be
thought about.

I will post more on the Darmine soon (I hope) & welcome comments
on this.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:52:35 -0400
From: Nikodemus <tauman@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: 1G accel?

Brett Fishburne wrote:
> 
> This makes me wonder -- doesn't the rate of acceleration increase as the
> fuel load decreases?  If F=ma then a=F/m which means that as the mass
> decreases the force increases.  Or are the numbers so huge that the change
> in F is negligable?  Wouldn't this require some sort of integral to
> calculate accurately?
> 
> Brett
> 
I would have to say (in order): Yes, Not Necesarily, Yes

If a significant percentage of a ship's mass is fuel, then acceleration
will go up by a significant percentage as the fuel goes from "full" to
"empty."

Since this is a changing value, etc. (and also because if you go fast
enough, the effects of relativity become noticable), you'd definitely
need at least some basic integral calculus, and with relativity figured
in, things would get pretty complicated--your relative mass would be
decreasing as your fuel is consumed, but increasing as your velocity
approaches lightspeed.

- --/tauman

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:07:49 -0500
From: Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com>
Subject: KBv2.0

Ken - got your system last night. Great job!

	I have a couple questions, though:

	1) How do you handle DMs as presented in T4 or MM's fixed system? In
T4, they are roughly equivalent to 1 skill or attribute level, but since
KBv2.0 weights these differently, are the DMs weighted as well? It seems
to me as if the effects of these DMs falls off drastically as the
difficulty increases - more dice to roll, and less of a change
(percentage wise) in the target number. Should we triple them? This
would make them as important as skill levels. While I think things like
scopes and such are valuable aids, they don't really have the ability to
replace training. Maybe double then? More weight than stats, less than
skills? 

	2) Experience - If I read your system right, characters advance by
skill levels, rather than experience levels. This gives a rather coarse
experience curve - by jumps of three. 
	I think a rather interesting idea, which would smooth this out
somewhat, is to roll against 1/3 experience, but only add 1 experience
level. This would smooth out the curve a bit, and, if you increase
experience awards to reflect this change in cost, would allow a greater
flexibility in handing out experience. Jack of all Trades advances would
cost three times as much, and be rolled against the current level. This
would represent the difficulty in advancing knowledge in many subjects
simultaneously.

	Comments, anyone?

Ryan Christensen	litefoot@feist.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1330
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, May 16 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1331



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Ships in Port?
Re: Ancients & Jump Drive
Re: Solomani Core Expiditions?
Re: T4 quality
Re: Baddies from the Core
Re: 1G accel?
Shutting Up
Re: IG Pricing Policy, and Hey Joe!
Starports and Cities
Confessions of a Traveller Junkie(LONG) Marc Miller, there is a message for you at the end of this message.
RE: First Survey error's?
Re: IG Pricing Policy
Gurps Traveller, was: Re: Corps
Re: Ancients and jump-space
Re: Corps

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:13:03 -0600
From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Ships in Port?

>	There's a couple of spreadsheets on my web site (yes, they're one
>of the
>>few things I've had time to get uploaded to the new site), based on the
>>World Builder's Handbook. One of them does starports--ships in port, number
>>of berths, startown facilities, transportation, warehousing, etc. Right now
>>all that's up is a Mac Excel version, but somebody was kind enough to
>>update them to Excel95 and email them to me. They're on the list for
>>uploading right after the Second Coming... (of Traveller, that is).
>>
>Dave,
>
>I have tried using the unstuffit using LF conversions and no conversions.
>When I try and open it with or without updating links I get garbage. I am
>using Excel 97 for Winblows 95. Could you try save them as sylk files and
>send them to me uncompressed?

I've absconded with copies of them and put them uncompresses into my
archive (http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/archive/spreadsheets/) -
I changed the naming of the files so my web server would know to specify
them as Excel spreadsheets, which might cause problems for them, but
they're pretty much ready to go. As I remember, it called "WBH" for macros,
which I renamed to "WBH.xls".

- -joe

 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 PGP Fingerprint: E3 3F DF 08 BE 3E 44 A0  EE A9 80 7E 22 99 CD DF
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 10:07:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: Ancients & Jump Drive

> Subject: Re: ANCIENT Grandfather
> 
> Another minor point - there is zero evidence that Grandfather gave jump to
> the races apart from the Droyn - unless you have a conspiracy theory
> going.

What? There's _lots_ of evidence.

The Vilani - their whole planet is _crawling_ with ancient artifacts.
 The Genoee (sp?) got their jump drives from ancient artifacts, that's
 a "known" fact. The entire major/minor race thing is based on who 
 invented jump drive themselves and who copied it from artifacts.
 The Vilani have an aconomic and socialogical reason to institute the
 whole major/minor race thing, but nothing says that they had any
 justification for it whatsoever.

The Solmani - hm, discovered Ancient Artifacts in the asteroid belt
 and on some Jovian moons, discovers jump drive in the same place...
 Hmmmm... coincidence?

The Aslan - they copied it from a crashed Solmani ship! It's not even
 an ancient one, directly.

The Hivers - they developed the "inferior" jump drive by themselves,
 but after a few hundred years of exploration, one day, poof! A new,
 better jump drive! How about they discovered an Ancient site
 and "upgraded" their drives.

The Vargr - they were _created_ by the Ancients. Life-like Vargr-type
 Ancient androids still walk among them checking up on them. Vargr
 historical records, are, well, an oxymoron. Who knows how the Vargr
 got jump drives? It's doubtful that most Vargr even know.

The Zhodani - their encounters with droyne gave them psionics, they
 too have Ancient sites right on their homeworld - what are the odds?

The K'kree - who knows? They've been known to commit genocide on the basis
 of dietary preference. They've got a story about how they invented
 jump drive and if you've got proof otherwise, they'll not only rub you
 out, they'll destroy your entire race.


Anyways, based on evidence and hints in all the Alien modules, I'd
say that it's more likely that Grandfather was the first and last being
to independently discover jump drive. Also, everyone discovered jump-1
but it took the Imperium (well, all 3 Imperia actually)  about, what,
6,000 years to go from jump-1 to jump-6? Gee, maybe jump drive
scientists don't know what the hell it is they're working with! In all
likelyhood, they had to completely reverse-engineer the whole thing
to make any progress on it at all... which could a serious amount
of time and brainpower. Grandfather was smart enough that it wouldn't
surprise me if it took thousands of humans thousands of years to
figure out just _one_ of his inventions.

Ethan
- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 10:21:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: Solomani Core Expiditions?

> > > Does anyone have the dates of the Solomani Core Expeditions?
> > 
> > Do you mean the Zhodani Core Expeditions? There were some deep rimward
> > Solomani exploratory missions, those were mentioned on the list a while
> > back.
> 
> No Solomani, I was under the impression that the Solomani also did core
> expeditions.  If not I can just make up a date - if so, I would like
> the dates.

Uh, the thing is that the Solomani core expeditions have a kinda
funny name - "Trip to the Imperium".

Solomani space is _rimward_ of Imperial space. Imperial space is
therefore _between_ the Core and Solomani space. TO get around
Imperial space, you have to go through Hiver space or Aslan space, or
off the maps of known space. 

The Solomani have done a lot of exploring _rimward_ as Bruce (I believe))
mentioned, but _coreward_? Nope, not much.

- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 07:44:15 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: T4 quality

On Fri, 16 May 1997, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:

> 
> 
> 	BTW, some of you may recall I posted session synopses of our last
> campaign on a regular basis.  Anyone want to see these again for this round
> of carnage?
 
YES! It was great to see that other GM's have Psycopath^H^H^H^H good role
players who totally trash^H^H^H^H take their own direction with the plot
line. ;-)

Seriously, IMO it's always fun to see how other people's games work..what
does work, what doesn't...there's always something you can get from it. 


Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 07:51:35 -0700
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Baddies from the Core

Franklin W. Cain wrote:

>Here's an *evil* idea for the "Baddies from the Core hate Jump
>Space/Drives"...
>
>(Spoiler Alert!):
>
>Roger Macbride Allen <sp?> wrote a two-book series, "The Wheel of Charon"
>and "The Shattered Sphere."
>
>In this series, an ancient race that mastered gravity was in the habit of
>building Dyson spheres as power generators.  They would use miniature
>black holes to create wormholes to travel interstellar distances.  And
>they would *steal* habitable planets as part of their breeding program...
>
>There was *another* ancient alien race that lived *deep*inside* gravity
>wells and that *ate* Dyson spheres.
>
>The first race fought a war with the second, almost lost, and started
>hiding.
>
>Now, suppose that the black hole in the center of the galaxy is a *Super*
>Dyson sphere/power generator, that jump space is the distribution grid (as
>suggested by someone else on the list), ... do you see were this is
>leading?  :-)


While laboring away on the Stairmaster at my company gym yesterday, I was
reading a copy of last week's Time magazine. There was an article on a
discovery made by astronomers that a huge antimatter surge is spouting from
the core of the Milky Way. The graphics seemed to indicate that this
antimatter is shooting up at an almost perpendidular angle from the plane
of the galaxy.

Scientists speculate that this may have resulted from a number of things,
including:

o  A high incidence of novas near the core, a likelihood considering the large
   number of ancient stars there. However, the high incidence would apparently
   have to be _really_ high!

There were several more ideas including some black hole theories.

Maybe we can draw some real-world astronomy into the realm of Traveller
history. Just what _is_ sending that antimatter energy out? Could be those
Baddies!

Best,

Chris Griffen

===================================================
Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.

http://www.cris.com/~Cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml


- --------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                      Phone: (408) 527-7189
Cisco Systems, Inc.                      Fax:   (408) 527-0452
NMBU Technical Publications              cgriffen@cisco.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:08:22 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: 1G accel?

At 08:38 am 05/16/97 -0400, you wrote:
>This makes me wonder -- doesn't the rate of acceleration increase as the
>fuel load decreases?  If F=ma then a=F/m which means that as the mass
>decreases the force increases.  Or are the numbers so huge that the change
>in F is negligable?  Wouldn't this require some sort of integral to
>calculate accurately?

	Bingo! But Traveller ignores that little fact, because it would be too
complicated for most people. And if you're using thruster plates, it's less
relevant because you're not expending reaction mass. For techheads, the
equation is 

	Total Delta V = Exhaust Velocity * ln( Final Mass / Initial Mass)
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 11:01:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Shutting Up

I'm not going to quote the discussion, but somebody said "50 people
complaining once is bad, but it's not the same as one person 
complaining 50 times, so shut up".

Well, I'm gonna be one of the 50 people, and I'll just complain once.

Making a business decision to not correct obvious errors in IG's
products and trying to cover it up with new rules and various
bullshit is going to put IG out of business. It's a shity decision
and while I had planned to buy the new M0 book, now I probably won't,
knowing that IG is just to lazy to bother fixing their mistakes.

Companies in all sectors live and die on customer relations. Eatons,
troubled as they may be by bad management these days, was built from
a corner store to the one-time third largest employer and the largest
retailer in Canada on the basis of one promise : "Good satisfactory
or money refunded".

I _dare_ IG to offer a satisfaction-guaranteed policy on their 
products. I know they won't do it because they know no one would
keep their stuff for a day after having read it cover to cover.

I love Traveller, but IG, as a company, seems to be making some pretty
stupid, cheap, short-sighted decisions. Somebody thaw out the frozen
watch at IG headquarters and let them have a crack at it.  They couldn't
do any worse.

And nobody better tell me to shut up, 'cause that's all I have to say 
on the subject.

Ethan

- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:05:04 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: IG Pricing Policy, and Hey Joe!

At 01:16 pm 05/16/97 MET, you wrote:
>-> > I really really liked M:0 (except for the map and the sector data) and 
>-> > told everyone to go get it, didn't I?
>-> 
>-> Ah, you're right, I had forgotten that.  I apologize.
>No problemo!
>-> I don't know all the circumstances at IG or in the RPG marketplace, but 
>-> it seems that a reasonable course to pursue would be to handle it like 
>-> the old High Guard 2nd Ed. - put the additional material in JTAS, spread 
>-> out over three issues.  That would work for the customers, I'll bet, and 
>-> it shouldn't be much of a hardship for IG.  But, again, I probably don't 
>-> know what I'm talking about.

	And it might even increase sales of JTAS--everybody who made the mistake
of buying the original would now be interested in getting the correct data.

	Has anybody out there considered bundling up all the messages in this
topic, adding a brief summary, and then forwarding the whole lot to IG?
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 16:04:58 +0100
From: Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk>
Subject: Starports and Cities

Hi all,

It was pointed out to me (i.e. a sharp stick was stuck into parts of my
anatomy normally reserved for my favourite masseuse) that my previous
posting on my random generation of starports stuff might have sounded a bit
negative towards the outstanding upcoming Starports and Cities product due
out from IG and (naturally) being written by two of our own best hand-picked
CORE writers. I have every confidence that this should be an excellent and
very useful product and I did not intend to detract from it in any manner.

My previous posting was merely indicating that the rules that I generated
about 4-5 years ago for random starport generation, which I had mentioned
some months back on TML, would *not* (as was originally discussed within
CORE) be appearing in this IG product, and therefore since I would retain
full copyright to such generation procedure, I might take the opportunity to
put out said rules at some later date, in some form or other.

Hope that clears up any potential misunderstandings.

Andy

(Who loves Traveller and intends to make sure it's around for many years to
come)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 10:14:18 -0500
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: Confessions of a Traveller Junkie(LONG) Marc Miller, there is a message for you at the end of this message.

Well, I have been relatively silent over the last two months, and it seems
recently that many people have come to the same conclusions that I have come to.

Let me back up...

About two months ago, it became obvious that Traveller was taking too much
of my time.  Or rather, that there were so many things in my life taking
time that one (or more) of them would have to be left behind.  The lot fell
to Traveller.  I began thinking about giving up Traveller, and at first, it
sorrowed me greatly.  I debated giving up something else instead, but it
always turned out that Traveller was at the bottom of the totem pole, and
was the one destined to get the axe.

As I thought further on this, I realized that I wasn't so upset about giving
up Traveller as I thought at first.  This puzzled me, because I have always
loved Traveller.  The concept is incredible.  So, I thought some more.

While this thinking was going on, I started the auction that some of you
have participated in.  I was selling off my stock of Traveller goodies (and
not so goodies).  Sometime during this auction I realized why I wasn't
loathe to leave Traveller behind.

You see, I realized that I was experiencing something of the "abused-wife
syndrome."  Now, before anyone curses me for attempting to compare my plight
with that of those poor wives with serious (read:real-life) problems, let me
explain.  To do that, come back with me into the past.

The setting, January 1996.  There I sat, at my office.  Having recently
gotten access to the Internet, I was pleased to find that there was much
about Traveller to be explored and exploited.  I had personally just added
all but the last five books to my TNE collection, when... Oh NO!!!  This
CAN'T BE!!  GDW to close its doors?   Say it ain't so!

I searched for more clues, but everywhere I went, I found the same answer.
GDW was going out of business.  I called GDW and quickly ordered the final
five TNE books (I have explained before that I am a TNE-man).  My volumes
arrived on (or near) that fateful day.  GDW's doors were closed.  My world
was black.  The only light came from the fact that Traveller would live on
with its fans.

But wait!  There was another glimmer of light.  "All rights for Traveller
will revert to Marc Miller."  YES!!!  I had not had the pleasure of owning
much of CT or MT, but I had seen (and more importantly, played) enough of it
to know that this man, the creator, would certainly not let the vision die.

He didn't, and before long, we were anxiously awaiting the New Traveller.
During that time, I had joined the mailing list.  (I spent many a fretful
night wondering what YARS had to do with Traveller, but that is another
story.)  Finally the day came, T4 had arriven in a store near me.  I must
admit, I was rather ambivalent about not receiving my hardback first.  On
the one hand, it meant the soft cover would get the initial reading wear and
tear.  On the other hand, it meant something was amiss in the shipping of
the Hardbacks.

The hardback finally did arrive, but by then, the damage had been done--I
had begun reading the soft cover T4.  I admit, the major turn-off for me was
that I was used to the extended TNE rules and T4 was VERY simplified from
TNE.  But, and what a but it turned out to be, there were also errors in T4.
But this Mailing List, they were quick to respond, they began collecting all
the errors in one place for future publication on the internet.  This was
good.  No, it wasn't great anymore, but it was still good.

Then, the proverbial doo-doo hit the proverbial fan.  In a word: Starships!
Well, so the doo-doo wasn't so proverbial.  OK, I'm a gearhead!  I admit it,
and I refuse to seek help. :)  What was it, September that Starships was
originally due out?  Then November, then December.  IIRC, I finally got a
copy in late December/early January.  And what a waste of money!!!  I was
really glad that I never found time to do any ship write-ups for Don, and
that the sidebar info that I did send in didn't make it in the book.  I
didn't wany my name anywhere near it!

Starships was CRAP!  But, again, the wonderful Mailing List came to the
rescue of IG and created the eratta for Starships.  Here, Dave Golden and
Guy Garnett deserve mention.  Between the pair, I had something I could use.
Granted, it was downloaded the fixed versions of their creations from the
internet and not from the books I bought, but It was something I could use
anyway.

About the same time came another new book, JTAS25.  Now, this one, we had
all been building up for.  I mean, even I, a Traveller late-comer, knew of
the glories of JTAS.  Perhaps one of the best game mags ever.  I opened
JTAS25 and gawked!  What was this?  Yeah, there were some good stories, but
it was definitely not Traveller.  FTL communications???  Give me a break!!!

Following this, Supplements started flowing out.  (I chose the term flowing
in reference to the way water flows after you've drained pipes and then
refill them.  Pop, sputter, Pop, flow, sputter, pop.)  Lets look at some of
these...

Central Supply Catalogue:  This was finally a supplement that was worthy of
being called Traveller.  Or was it?  As was mentioned here before, the idea
and presentation was great, the errors were few, but the entire design
system didn't mesh with anything that had gone before.  Oops.  The good
news:  At least the eratta was small enough that it could be put on the web.

Aliens Archive:  To be honest, I never even read this one.  When you
approach a game like Traveller with a vast history and you publish a book
about alien races and don't include a single race that makes up the majority
of that history you've made a mistake in my book.  Now I'm no expert, but I
do know what I like, and this book didn't make me want to read it.

Mileau 0:  After long waiting, a supplement that was usefull that didn't
seem to contain too many errors.  IG had done well in employing people who
knew about the game to do the writing.  Good work and Kudo's go out to Andy
Lilly, Joe Walsh, Stu Dollar, and the other who worked on this project.
Unfortunately, IG got their hands on the project before it went to print.
We ended up with a volume that was missing pieces and parts.  In addition...

First Survey:  This book didn't agree with what Mileau 0 was telling us.
Further, after examining it in more detail, the Law Level and Government
codes were identical.  To me, though, the lowest blow was the realization
that this project was the work of Marc Miller himself.  Now whether the
blame for the boo-boo belongs on Mr. Miller or on IG (again) remains to be seen.

Citizens of the Imperium:  I thought, even though I never did get to see any
of this, it deserved a mention here.  This was promised, when?  January?  I
think that's right.  Well, is anyone in this fan club yet?

JTAS26:  Well, to IG's credit, they have decided to hold this one back to do
it right.  I'm not really sure at this point that IG knows what right is,
but perhaps they will stumble into something.

I never got Emperors Arsenal, I was in the midst of an auction before it
came out.

Now, to add insult to injury, there were a few announcements made while
these supplements were being sent out.  There were basically three that
deserve mention...

Traveller Deluxe: "Hey Traveller Fans on the Mailing List, guess what?
Remember all those errors you found in our main book?  Well, we've taken
them off our web page and used them to create another book you can buy!
That's right, rather than be decent and admit when we've made a mistake, we
are going to try and turn another profit on your trust.  Announcing T4
Deluxe!  Oh, yeah, we'll add a few little things here and there to make you
feel like you are getting something new for your money, but don't worry, it
won't be anything major.  Well except for the ship design system.  You see,
that QSDS thing that everyone likes, well, since it is available for free on
the Internet, we can't make a buck on it.  So, we've gotten Mr. Marc Miller
to agree to come up with a new ship design system that you can't get
anywhere but from us."

New Starships:  "Wowie and Zowie, we've come up with yet another way to turn
a buck!  You remember that CRAP we suckered you all into buying?  Yeah, it
was called Starships.  Well, we've taken the eratta that you compiled, added
a few VITAL NOTES AND COMMENTS so that you will feel like you are missing
something if you don't get them, and we're going to publish it as the New
Starships.  You remember how aweful we screwed up the deckplans?  Well,
we're going to do them right this time.  What?  Oh, don't worry, trust us.
We know how to do them right, we don't need to show you what we mean by
right (snicker)."

M:0 Campaign:  "Check this out, Traveller fans.  We've gotten Twenty pages
of material that was either left out of M:0 or was written new (We're not
really sure which) that we are going to put in a new book.  We are also
going to put that junk from First Survey in there too so we can charge more.
Huh?  NO! Why would we want to fix the Law Level?  What's wrong with it?
Oh?  It's the same as the Government Code?  Well, uhm, that's, uhm, well,
uhm, going to, uhm, be explained, uhm, in, uhm, the Thirty new pages of
material, yeah, that's it.  Huh? what?  Oh, yeah, so I did say twenty
earlier, well, that was just a slip of the tongue."


Now, back to where I started.  The reason, I said, that I wasn't too upset
about leaving Traveller behind, was because I had a bit of the "abused-wife
syndrome."  Now, let's look at this.  What is the "abused-wife syndrom"?
Well, I can think of three things that are involved.

1. The wife is abused.
2. The wife is raped, or in other ways taken advantage of.
3. The wife loves the husband but hates what he does.

Now, carry the analogy out with me.  Consider that I am like the wife, and
Traveller is like the Husband.  IG controls Traveller (with Marc's
Permission). So, if what I was experiencing was like the "abused-wife
syndrome" then...

1. I am abused.  Considering what IG has tried to push off on me a decent
material, I would say that my intelligence has been abused.  My pocket-book
has certainly been abused.  Not to mention the insult of the three "new"
products I mentioned above.
2. I am raped, or in other ways taken advantage of.  Again, reference the
lack of money in my wallet from spending it on overpriced game supplements.
3. I love Traveller, but Hate what IG has done with it.

And so, I am faced with the fact that I am not that displeased to be giving
up Traveller.  I regret that things have come this far, but that's the way
it is.

I will still be around here because, there is one bright note, however.
THUDDD.  While I no longer feel adequate to run THUDDD, with QSDS and SSDS
from the Internet, I can compete.  I am, afterall, still a Traveller fan and
still a Gearhead.  


MESSAGE TO MARC MILLER:

I'm not sure if you will get this or read any of it, but here it is anyway.

Well, it has been over a year since Traveller became yours again.  It has
been almost a year since it the first T4 books went out.  You promised us
something back then when you first got Traveller back that I think many (if
not all) of us have forgotten.  You said that since there were so many
different opinions as to where Traveller should go, you were going to do
with it what _you_ wanted.  If we liked it, we could come along, but if not,
you were doing what you wanted.

This is a simple question to you.  Has the past year been worth it?  Are you
seeing in print what you wanted?  Do you like where Traveller has gone?
Bassically, Are you getting what you wanted?

I certainly hope not, because if you are getting what you wanted, then you
have set your expectations too low and you dream, the dream we all love,
Traveller, will die.

I have enjoyed most of the tme I have spent with your game, Mr. Miller.  It
has given me many hours of enjoyment.  I can no longer support the products
that bear your name, though.  IMO, they are a rape of Traveller's fans.

You don't have to answer to me, though.  You really don't have to answer to
any of us.  You should answer to your fans, but it isn't necessary.  You do,
however, have to answer to yourself.  And so I ask again...

Are you getting what you wanted for Traveller?

    Paul {tiger}
     tiger@goldinc.com
     http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 18:57:26 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: RE: First Survey error's?

>From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
>Now, there's no way IG can send out replacements for all flawed books. But
>trying to PROPAGATE the flaw, and handwave over it is probably the
>absolutely WORST thing they could do. The only acceptable solution would be
>to fix the data, and print it spread out over three or four JTAS issues.
>Note: this has the side benefit of increasing sales of JTAS. Making the
>correct LL/GG info available on the net would also be good.

        Hmmm.... I have a couple *alternate* subsectors in Massilia, so far,
with *fixed* (for me) data. Maybe I should submit them to JTAS, along with
Library Data, and just pretend is year 20 info and the FS data is
outdated... <g>. Maybe the TML should flood JTAS with corrected subsectors.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 00:20:25 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: IG Pricing Policy

Joe Walsh wrote:

>Population is the number of permanent residents of a given world.  So,
>where is Vland getting those workers?  Are they, in year 0, engaging in
>slavery and not considering slaves permanent residents (i.e., not
>citizens)?  Is there a second world in the system that has a large
>population, is a client state of Vland, and serves as the main world's
>economic base?  Do they have robots doing most of the work?

Joe... tell me this is part of your 'having fun with this'! Change the
homeworlds this much and I think I'll have a nervous breakdown...

Hang on... perhaps lower caste Vilani don't count as citizens, and the data
reflects the position prior to Vland joining the Imperium! ;-)

> Or is there
>another explanation...?

How about a major cock up in the editing by the IISS?

- --------------- Dom Mooney (dom@cybergoths.u-net.com)---------------
"The fall of Empire, Gentlemen, is a massive thing, however, and not easily
fought. It is dictated by a rising bureaucracy, a receding initiative, a
freezing of caste, a damming of curiousity - a hundred other factors."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Hari Seldon - Azimov's "Foundation"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 19:02:45 +1
From: "Jonas Karlsson" <Jonas.Karlsson@mail.baldakinen.umea.se>
Subject: Gurps Traveller, was: Re: Corps

On 15 May 97 at 15:15, Traveller-digest wrote:
> From: "P. ENGEBOS" <pengebos@NMSU.Edu>
> I know there are at least two web pages devoted to GURPS:TRAVELLER
> games, because I am running one.
> 
> Peter Engebos				<pengebos@nmsu.edu>
> T'Sarith, Lord deGaalth			<tsarith@io.com>
>   http://web.nmsu.edu/~pengebos/

<Raises hand> Three! I have one too. Not much there worth nicking yet. 
It's contents include a reworking of David P. Summer's character 
conversion rules, conversions (using 3g3 and Gurps Vehicles) of the 
cR898, cR776 and cP003, and a lot of broken links and missing images. 
;-)

I intend to get a few brief campaign summaries and a GCA definition 
file up during this weekend. Who knows, I might even fix some broken 
links. ;-)

Anyway, it's at:

http://www.baldakinen.umea.se/~baldjkn/Traveller

- --
| Jonas.Karlsson@baldakinen.umea.se          | I am a number,  |
| Jonas.Karlsson@capgemini.se - jonask@io.com| not a man! - 42 |

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:14:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: XatoKuom@aol.com
Subject: Re: Ancients and jump-space

In a message dated 97-05-16 03:24:10 EDT, you write:

<< 
 Another cool idea!  If the Ancients created jump space, they only put it
 where they were, and we're the lucky beneficiaries.  What's Vinge?  
  >>


Vernor Vinge wrote a novel called "A Fire Upon the Deep", in which, the
galaxy is split into various zones: the Unthinking Depths, the Transcend, and
the Beyond.

Physical laws are increasingly accelerated in each zone with the Beyond
containing races much like B5's elders.  It's a great novel not only in
concept but in totality.  Give it a read!

"If you can't dazzle them with style, riddle them with bullets!"

Scott Quigg(XatoKuom@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:58:17 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Corps

At 10:43 AM 5/16/97 +0100, you wrote:
>>> Lethal is cutting/penetrating damage (knife wounds, gunshots, etc.) it
>>> has the potential to kill you, using the eventualy fatal and instant kill
>>> rolls.  Non'lethal is a punch in the jaw.. very hard to kill somebody,
>>> but you can knock them cold.
>
>Actually not. You can kill people with blunt trauma. In movies as in most
>RPGs there is a sharp distinction between penetrating and blunt damage. In
>the real world(tm) however blunt trauma can also kill but not as easy. If
>you're hit by a car or fall off a building you get hurt from blunt trauma
>which can both kill you instantly or make you bleed to death.

In the game, lethal damage can kill you instantly, or give you a bleeding
wound that will kill you if you don't get help soon.  Martial artists can
do lethal damage under certain circumstances, so you can kill someone
quickly in a brawl if you feel the need.

It is possible to bludgeon someone to death in CORPS, but it's messy and
takes a long time (just like real life!)

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|   about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|   Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|     -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin" |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1331
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, May 16 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1332



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: 1G accel?
Re: 1G accel?
Re: ANCIENT Grandfather
Releasing old stuff (Re: IG Pricing Policy)
1G? and hard science
Re: Droyne jump drives?
Re: Total BS
Re: Fix for starports in FS (was: IG Pricing Policy)
RE: First Survey error's?
Re: IG Pricing Policy
Re: Ships in Port?
Re: Ship economics -- fuel comsumption
Re: Ship economics -- fuel comsumption
RE: First Survey error's?
Re: IG pricing policy
Re: Ships in Port?
Re: Captain, we're surrounded, and they're all armed with canons....
Arthur C. Clarke
T4 Sales
IG and Errata
Re: IG Pricing Policy, and Hey Joe!
Re: Confessions of a Traveller Junkie(LONG) Marc Miller, there i

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 10:28:46 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: 1G accel?

>Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:37:34 -0700
>From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>

I wrote:
>Depends on how the ship is propelled.  If you have something that produces
>a constant force sufficient to accelerate at 1G, as determined by the
>people on the ship, then there is no upper limit, beyond the usual
>relativity ones.  (e.g., after going for a while, you will notice that your
>acceleration efforts are going into providing you with higher mass, not
>higher v.) 

I meant: 

(e.g., after going for a while, an outside lab observer will notice that your
acceleration efforts are going into providing you with higher mass, not
higher v.  You will not notice this, and in fact, will think that the
relativistic shortening of the outside universe in the direction of travel
is moving things closer to you.  To the outside, your time slows, but to
you, the distance shortens and time stays the same.) 

Blame it on typing too fast :)

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 11:08:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: 1G accel?

> Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:38:00 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Brett Fishburne <bfish@atlantech.net>
> 
> This makes me wonder -- doesn't the rate of acceleration increase as the
> fuel load decreases?  If F=ma then a=F/m which means that as the mass
> decreases the force increases.  Or are the numbers so huge that the change
> in F is negligable?  Wouldn't this require some sort of integral to
> calculate accurately?

Small quibble:  As mass decreases, the *acceleration* increases, for a
constant-thrust rocket (which most rockets are, more or less). 

Rocket performance analysis does require calculus, in the Real World (tm). 
Newton's original expression for the force law was actually F = dp/dt --
"force is proportional to the rate of change of momentum with respect to
time."  Momentum in turn is mass times velocity (p = mv).  For fixed mass,
this reduces to F = m dv/dt -- and since dv/dt is acceleration, further
simplifies to F = ma. 

However, for a realistic rocket, with fuel comprising 80% or more of its
mass, and consumed over a relatively short interval, one must instead
solve simultaneous differential equations for fuel use, thrust, mass, and
so forth to get an accurate answer.  FF&S provides a simplified method for
doing this in its section on realistic rockets.

For Traveller spacecraft using HEPlaR or thrusters, though, the change in
overall vessel mass as fuel is burned is small enough that it's reasonable
to treat the mass (and hence the acceleration) as constant.  This is a
simplifying assumption of the same general class as the one in which
vessel volume rather than mass is used to determine acceleration
performance; it's inaccurate, but so much simpler that we use it anyway. 

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 11:29:37 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: ANCIENT Grandfather

[Regarding the appearance of the major races on coyns before they
developed jump drive.]

Who's to say that  wasn't just smart enough to see
where these races were headed?  Heck, lowly upstarts like the
Hivers and Imperium can mess around with psychohistory, it
seems reasonable that Grandfather could extrapolate development
some time into the future.  So he put them on the coyns so
the Droyne will recognize them as important when the time comes....

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 11:35:03 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Releasing old stuff (Re: IG Pricing Policy)

>I completely agree. I wish that IG would finally grant the NEW DGP
>the license to rerelease their old books.

I would also be great to see some of the old GDW stuff (like the
Spinward Marches campaign).

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 14:51:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: 1G? and hard science

   Hi.

> Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:38:00 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Brett Fishburne <bfish@atlantech.net>

> This makes me wonder -- doesn't the rate of acceleration increase as the
> fuel load decreases?  If F=ma then a=F/m which means that as the mass
> decreases the force increases.  

   That is certainly true for rockets, but it does not apply to
   Traveller manuever drives, which are magical and maintain a constant
   acceleration when hooked up to a magical Traveller power plant.

   Off-topic musings: 

   The magic of Trav manuever drives, jump drives, and two-dimensional
   starmaps is an inherant part of Trav, and has been with the game
   since its first incarnation.  The obviousness of this fact makes me
   wonder where many people on this list have gotten the impression that
   Trav is "hard" science fiction.  A few possibilities occur to me:

   1)  The detail which "Mercenary" and "Striker" lavish on military
   equipment gave an illusion of hard science.

   2)  The techno-babble introduced in many late DGP and TNE products
   gave the illusion that some Trav manuever drives obey physical
   conservation laws.

   and most of all:

   3)  The gritty realism of Traveller's historical canon makes the
   technical details of the game appear "hard" by association.

   Whatever the causes, I just felt the need to point out, in
   contradiction to what some have asserted on this list, that Traveller
   is not and never has been a "hard" science-fiction game.  And I
   personally have no problem with that.  I have spent too much time
   thinking about what would have to be done to change Trav into a
   harder game, and I cannot see how this can be done while preserving
   canon.  Since I feel that what makes Traveller good /is/ its canon, I
   have basically abbandoned all attempts at rationalizing its magic.

   Back to on-topic musings:

> Or are the numbers so huge that the change
> in F is negligable?  Wouldn't this require some sort of integral to
> calculate accurately?

   For chemical rockets, the change is not negligible.  In free space,
   the calculation requires the use of differential equations to solve,
   and you get this result:

   	v = S logn(1 + m/(M-m))

   where v is the rocket's change in velocity, S is the specific impulse
   of the rocket fuel (3000 Newton-seconds per kilogram for the best
   chemical fuels), m is the mass of the fuel used, and M is the initial
   mass of the fully loaded rocket with fuel.  Logn is my notation for
   the natural logarithm.  The result, v, is in meters per second.  In
   the jargon of the field, v is called "delta vee".

   So for a rocket with a mass made up of 90% fuel, its maximum speed
   would be

   	v = (3000 m/s) logn(1 + 0.9M/(M - 0.9M)) = 3000 m/s * logn(10)
   	  = 6900 m/s

   Not very impressive by Traveller standards.

> Don't you also need to consider proximity to large masses as they can
> accelerate or decelerate a ship passing by?

   This is true for small acclerations over short periods of time, but
   in Traveller, starships have the ability to perform large
   accelerations for /very/ long periods of time.  A /single/
   space-combat turn in Trav is 1000 seconds long, as long as the entire
   firing duration of a Saturn V rocket. The gravity fields of a typical
   solar system cannot compete in any meaningful way with these
   starships, and their effects can be ignored to first order. The
   original incarnation had rules for the effects of planetary gravities
   on starship manuever.  Back when I first started playing the game, it
   took me about 15 minutes to realize that these effects could safely
   be ignored, and I haven't noticed those rules in any later
   incarnations of the game. 8^)

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 14:16:43 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Droyne jump drives?

. B-)  Advertising : "If You are not capable of finding us,
> You do not need Our drives"


LOL!  I love it!

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 14:16:40 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Total BS

>
> True, why bother with T4, since most of it is crap?  I'm the original
> Traveller pusher, but even I'm to the point of telling people to wait for
> the re-issues.

Not all of my players even have Book 1 yet.  I'm already telling them 
to wait and see what T4-Revised looks like.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 14:16:37 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Fix for starports in FS (was: IG Pricing Policy)

In reading all of these posts on the problems in FS, I have a 
question.

Did Marc Miller really do the work on FS?  I mean his name is on it, 
but did somebody else do the half assed work, and Marc just slapped 
his name on it?  Or did Marc just do a bad job himself?

Everybody's human--I know that.  But, I was 
curious who actually slapped FS together and got it out there.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 14:16:41 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: RE: First Survey error's?

> On Thu, 15 May 1997, Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> 
> > Me too.  And, they shouldn't have called it First Survey.  What are 
> > they going to call the real First Survey when they get to it?
> 
> I don't recall off-hand, but the first survey done by the Imperium wasn't 
> called First Survey when it occurred, just as World War I wasn't called 
> World War I until later on.  Was it "The Imperial Grand Survey?"  I 
> forget.  But, that's my guess as to what the title of that future book 
> will be - whatever that first survey was referred to as in its time.

You may not believe this, Joe, but I actually like that.  The 
Imperial Grand Survey would be a great name for a book about the 
first official Imperial survey.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 14:23:39 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: IG Pricing Policy

On Fri, 16 May 1997, SD Mooney wrote:

> Joe... tell me this is part of your 'having fun with this'! Change the
> homeworlds this much and I think I'll have a nervous breakdown...

Oh, definitely, I was just having fun in that whole message, as 
advertised in the first few lines.  I'm surprised at the number of people 
who assumed I was saying what The Official Word was, despite my explicit 
statement to the contrary.  I put in a disclaimer, then just tossed off 
the first few things that came to mind as I was typing the message.  As 
a result, I've gotten everything from, "Huh?" to "Yeah, but that doesn't 
make sense, here's a better answer [which is what I wanted/expected out 
of the message]" to "You moron! You're ruining Traveller! If you expect 
me to believe that crap, you're even stupider than I thought you were!" in 
response.  Quite enlightening. ;)


> Hang on... perhaps lower caste Vilani don't count as citizens, and the data
> reflects the position prior to Vland joining the Imperium! ;-)

Works for me.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh  |  Game Designer for Marc Miller's Traveller
_________________|  Atari 1200XL and Apple IIGS User and Programmer

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 14:16:35 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Ships in Port?

> I have previously mentioned on TML that I have a system currently under
> construction for randomly generating starport types, sizes and details such
> as number of ships of various sizes, etc. We at CORE were hopefully going to
> include this in the upcoming Starports and Cities book, however a
> page-down-sizing situation means that it won't be, so instead, it should
> appear in the nearish (Oct 2003) future as a 101 book from BITS. However, it
> does assume that you have generated more details about a system than are
> given in the basic T4 rules - i.e. more like the WBH type detail. It also
> covers things like multiple starports on a world, in-system transport
> between multiple planets, etc. To coordinate with that, I am hoping to issue
> a 101 book to cover some more of that level of detail of planetary systems.

Sorry to hear about the page down sizing.  I would have liked to have 
seen that.  I'll probably buy that 101 book when you get it out--that 
is if I can get it for a reasonable price here in the US.

Thanks for the info,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 14:16:44 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Ship economics -- fuel comsumption

> 	The question is whether or not larger jump drives actually need all
> that energy for shorter range jumps, or if that is simply a byproduct of
> the combustion/energy generation process.

You've read the SOM correctly.  Since I posted that, I have been 
enlightened to other references in CT.  See my other post on that.

The point here is, I'm implementing variable jump fuel requirements 
in my campaign too based on the simple formulas in CT.

T4 is based on CT, and it seems to fit.


> 	Also, what happens to the energy stored in the crystals after 2 or 3
> hours? It has to go somewhere...

The SOM says that if the energy is not released in 2-3 hours, the 
crystals will explosively decompose and do significant damage to the 
ship.

No where in the SOM does it state that all the jump fuel is used--it 
is only in the way things are written do you get a feel for that.  
Back that up with the articles in Traveller's Digest and the 
MegaTraveller Journal, and it is clear that all of the jump fuel is 
used no matter what the jump.

But, if you use the CT formula, like I am going to do, the info in 
the SOM is still relevant.  It's still a "copious quantity" of fuel 
being used even for a lower jump--it is just that copious quantity is 
less than the ship's total tankage of jump fuel.

At least, that's how I'm going to start playing it.  When I first 
asked you about the jump fuel thing, I was curious because of what I 
had read in the magazines and the SOM.

Since, I have changed my view on the subject.  You and I agree 
now (I don't mean for it to sound like our friendly discussion was 
anything more than that).

The TML has done its job again.

Look everyone!  Closeure on the TML!

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 14:16:36 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Ship economics -- fuel comsumption

> >From the Traveller Starter Edition (c.1983) page 32, "Ships 
> performing jumps less than their maximum capacity consume fuel at a 
> lower level based on the jump number used."  I believe that this was 
> also the case in the edition of CT Book 3 - Starships that I had (it 
> seems to have taken a walk).

Hmmm.  You are right about Starter Traveller (I have that too).

Let's see--

In CT, Jump Fuel was variable:
          * Starter Traveller--Variable Fuel, page 32.
          * CT Book 2:  Starships--Variable Fuel, page 15.
          * Traveller Book--Variable Fuel, page 60.
          * CT Book 5:  High Guard--Variable Fuel, page 22.

In MT, Jump Fuel was Fixed:
          * SOM--Fixed Fuel, (not covered directly, but implied page 
             12.
           * DGP Staff/Traveller's Digest #20--Fixed Fuel (and also 
              states that CT had fixed fuel too, which is not the 
              case), page 38.
           * Marc Miller/DGP Staff/MegaTraveller Journal #4--Fixed 
             Fuel (but also lists a variant for variable fuel), page 
             88.
           * MT Core Rules (couldn't find a listing)
           

In TNE, Jump Fuel was Variable:
            * TNE Core Rules Book (couldn't find a listing)
            * Brilliant Lances--Variable Fuel, page 3 of Technical 
              Manual.

And now, in T4, Jump Fuel is again Variable:
            * T4 Book 1--Variable Fuel (implied), page 92.

Given all this, I am convinced that T4 jump fuel is supposed to be 
variable based on parsec jumped, although the info in T4 is sparse.

Since T4 is so closely linked with CT, it seems that this is the 
case.

I was going by the more definitive answers to these questions in the 
MT sources, but upon looking at the CT sources, it is as plain as 
day.

I guess what really swayed me was that Marc Miller himself has said 
that jump fuel is fixed (see the citation under MegaTraveller above). 
 Contrasting this is the rules in CT.  

When it comes down to it, I guess I don't really care which way 
it goes, but thanks for the tip in the right direction,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 14:16:39 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: RE: First Survey error's?

> 	Now, there's no way IG can send out replacements for all flawed books. But
> trying to PROPAGATE the flaw, and handwave over it is probably the
> absolutely WORST thing they could do. The only acceptable solution would be
> to fix the data, and print it spread out over three or four JTAS issues.
> Note: this has the side benefit of increasing sales of JTAS. Making the
> correct LL/GG info available on the net would also be good.

I agree with this 100%.  I'd be still upset that the mistake was made 
in the first place, but at least I could see IG trying to correct the 
error.  This would show me that IG is trying to put out quality 
product and wanting to avoid mistakes like this in the future.

Their current line of reasoning on this issue basically says, "We 
screwed up.  We know it, and we are not going to do anything about 
it."

So IG screwed up.  OK--its growing pains for a new company (still).  

Why not fix the screw up?

And, the bigger issue here is--not only are they not fixing screw up, 
but they are REPUBLISHING the screw up a second time.

That make absolutely no sense to me.  So, they screwed up once--a 
loging thing to do is fix the problem.

But, IG is not doing this.  They are re-publishing the same data in a 
hard back FS/M0 combination.

They are making matters worse, not better.

What was that old line--Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, 
shame on me?

Here's what IG should do.  It is pretty simple and logical to most 
people.

1)  Correct the data and other problems in FS/M0.

2) Provide this data free of charge via their web site (or even in 
the JTAS--which is acceptible), and have it available for anybody 
via snail mail if they send in a SASE.

3) Publish the new FS/M0 book with the corrected data.


Now, what would you rather buy?  A hard back version of FS/M0 with 
all of the problems fixed and the additional 32 pages (I might even 
buy that)?

Or, do you want a hard back version of FS/M0 with the same crappy 
problems as the first printing--but hey, you're getting 32 extra 
pages that explain why the data is not so screwed up.

Give me the first choice.

What the hell is IG thinking?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 20:52:27 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: IG pricing policy

Joe Walsh, wherever you are, aren't you glad you're not the IG net rep any
more? ;-)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Feel the guilt / like shackles round your feet / like a halo in reverse"
                     Depeche Mode "Violator"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 21:03:31 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Ships in Port?

Anders wrote:

>BTW Does anybody remember the old White Dwarf article about starports with
>really good illustrations on how landing bays etc might look? Does anybody
>use it? I am about to make detailed maps on those parkbays and possibly
>also some 3D renderings to show the players.

Sounds nice - I remember the article and use it - it's one of those in the
players library data file! WD was good, back in the 40s and 50s... The
other article I remember was for a lifeboat variant called the Reliant.

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Feel the guilt / like shackles round your feet / like a halo in reverse"
                     Depeche Mode "Violator"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 18:48:53 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Captain, we're surrounded, and they're all armed with canons....

Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net> wrote:

>> > Parsecs are also refered to as 'hexes' in Imperial society ;-)
>
>Are they ? Oh sure the players call them that but do the charecters ?
>IIRC the are more apt to say "jump 4 away" or something similar.

Note the smiley. It was an attempt at humour on my part...

I suspect Imperial citizens would refer to the number of leagues, sorry
parsecs, away a system was.


- --------------- Dom Mooney (dom@cybergoths.u-net.com)---------------
"The fall of Empire, Gentlemen, is a massive thing, however, and not easily
fought. It is dictated by a rising bureaucracy, a receding initiative, a
freezing of caste, a damming of curiousity - a hundred other factors."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Hari Seldon - Azimov's "Foundation"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 16:48:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: Arthur C. Clarke

       I think some people are going to have to take Clark off their hard
science pedestal as this author insists on using inertia drives that achieve
thousands of kps with little effort and power plants that pull energy from
'vacuum', as I keep hearing these things are scientifically possible.

Bryan Borich

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 16:57:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: pierre-louis constantin <Pierre-Louis.Constantin@DMI.USherb.CA>
Subject: T4 Sales

Hello all,
 
	For those who wonder just how good or bad the T4 sales are
and why the prices have been marked down, consider my local game
shop:  It carries almost all the RPG's, has tonnes of customers, some
of which are Traveller fans.  In fact 3 of the owner/managers are
Traveller players.
 
	Now the store carries all the T4 books.  How many T4 books
have been sold up to now?  Zero.  None.  Zilch.  Not even the owners
of the store gave themselves a copy at cost (50% off).  Expecter
number of sales?  1 - when I go get Emperor's Arsenal this weekend.
:)
 
	I was very surprised to see how many people have played
Traveller in any of its versions through the years... But I was even
more surprised to see how hated T4 is..


- -- 
Pierre-Louis Constantin, ift. a. 	"He whose name was writ in E-mail."
(: "I hate fanatics with a passion; all extremists should be shot." :)
	    How's my surfing? http://www.dmi.usherb.ca/~constanp/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 15:57:21 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: IG and Errata

> 	Has anybody out there considered bundling up all the messages in this
> topic, adding a brief summary, and then forwarding the whole lot to IG?

I'm not sure if that would work, Dave.  In fact, I'm not even sure if 
IG cares.

For a while, when I found a piece of errata in the IG products, I 
would forward a short message to IG at suggestions@imperiumgame.com.

I figured that I was doing my part by forwarding these things.  Silly 
me, I figured that IG would be interested in errors in their products 
and want to correct them in future printings.

Well, I got a message from IG saying that I shouldn't forward this 
stuff anymore, and if I had an actual game question, they gave me 
another e-mail address to forward it to.

So, given this, I'm not really sure if IG really cares what we all 
think of their using obviously bad data in the new printing of FS/M0.

They are going to do it anyway, so why even try to make this game we 
love so much better than it is?

Kenneth. 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:00:40 -0000
From: Jason Davies <obiwan@thenet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: IG Pricing Policy, and Hey Joe!

Hi Joe,

On 15-May-97, Joseph E. Walsh wrote:

T>I thought about that last night, and the conclusion I came to was that 
T>would be a non-optimal solution.  They could put the full data up there 
T>(the world name and UWP for each world, with a corrected Law Level for 
T>each world (except good ol' Sylea - anyone else note that Sylea is the 
T>only world in FS that has a law level that differs from its government 
T>type?)),

Joe, I take it you've never visited Azimuth/Core 0202 Gov:B LL:9, the first
planet to see Fusion plus in action, hmmm, maybe Cleon is supressing LL data
after all.  It also matches up with whats published in M0 (p8) :-0

T> but that would deter people from buying First Survey, Second 
T>Edition (a hypothetical volume having the corrected data in it).  Or, 
T>they could just put the world name and law level on the web site, but 
T>that would be very awkward to use, requiring users to flip back and forth 
T>between First Survey and the data downloaded from the web site.

I would welcome just world name, Location and LL data.  Yes it's awkward,
but it is better than fudging it.

T>I think the JTAS route is best.

Absolutely, again Name, Location, and LL.

When the Star Wars RPG was revised, all the changes were included in an
adventure journal (they were also free to those who requested it), a similar
policy from IG might help ease customer's concerns.

Jason
- -- 
######################################################################
Jason Davies (obiwan@thenet.co.uk)   Amiga 1200, 060 50 MHz, 540 Mb HD
http://www.thenet.co.uk/~obiwan/      CD-ROMx2, Zip Drive, SupraFax288
######################################################################
"Remember, the Amiga will be with you.. always" - Obi-Wan, Jedi Knight

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 15:57:23 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Confessions of a Traveller Junkie(LONG) Marc Miller, there i

(snip of one of the best posts I've read in a while)

> Well, it has been over a year since Traveller became yours again.  It has
> been almost a year since it the first T4 books went out.  You promised us
> something back then when you first got Traveller back that I think many (if
> not all) of us have forgotten.  You said that since there were so many
> different opinions as to where Traveller should go, you were going to do
> with it what _you_ wanted.  If we liked it, we could come along, but if not,
> you were doing what you wanted.
> 
> This is a simple question to you.  Has the past year been worth it?  Are you
> seeing in print what you wanted?  Do you like where Traveller has gone?
> Bassically, Are you getting what you wanted?

I can't believe how much I agree with Paul's post.  It touches on 
every emotion I've had with regard to T4.

I wish I would have written it.

IG should listen to everything Paul is saying.  I've been a Traveller 
player for 15 years now.  I'm one of those fanatic, buy everything I 
can put my paws on kinda Traveller GM.  I spent $1500 buying up old, 
out of print Traveller stuff when I started my campaign a year and a 
half ago--before I knew about T4.

And even with all this passion I have for the game, I feel exactly 
like Paul does.  I'm an abused wife too.

IG--please, please get your act together.  Show us some faith.  Give 
us something to believe in again.

Have you ever stopped to wonder why all of these grown men are 
getting so upset over a stupid game?  You must be laughing at 
us--taking this game so seriously.

But, I'll tell ya.  You should thank the stars that Traveller has 
such devoted fans.  We're the reason Traveller has not fallen by the 
way side like so many other RPGs.

What I'm trying to tell you is--you'd better start making better 
decisions with Traveller or you are going to alienate too many die 
hard players.  Look at Paul--selling off his stuff.

We want Traveller to succeed as much as you do.  Actually, we 
probably want it to do well more than you do--because this is our 
hobby, our passion.  We do this for fun.

IG, I hope you are listening.

Kenneth.
     --Traveller abused wife #2.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1332
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Traveller-digest        Friday, May 16 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1333



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Stand UP!
Re: KBv2.0
Relativistic manuever drives
Re: Relativistic manuever drives
Re: Fix for starports in FS (was: IG Pricing Policy)
Re: Ship economics -- fuel comsumption
Re: Confessions of a Traveller Junkie(LONG) Marc Miller, there is a
Re: ANCIENT Grandfather
Re: ANCIENT Grandfather
Re: Arthur C. Clarke
Re: Arthur C. Clarke
Re: Ancients & Jump Drive
Re: 1G? and hard science

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 15:57:22 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Stand UP!

Tim Reynolds wrote:

 I tried to do this nicely before  but some people just don't 
> get it.  If you don't like Traveller the way IG is taking  it and you
> think  you have a better system then by all means go make another game
> and good luck.  But stop whining if you cant, go play Vampire they
> will love you.
> 
> And why  we are on the subject running a new company especially a
> creative one like IG takes allot of effort and mistakes are going to
> be made  even some bad ones but I still think like most of you
> Traveller is the best SF game around.  Ok so we don't get data, or we
> get screwed up info.  I bet you almost nobody knew there were 30 pages
>  missing  in M:0. Remember how much you loved it when it came out. 
>  Now we are starting to grip about the pages.  Hey it blows I admit but I
> don't need them to enjoy the book.

And JD wrote:  

> Anyone besides me getting tired of hearing this?  I am a 
> firm believer in the right of free speech, in fact I am sworn to
> defend it.  Once is great...twice okay, even three times I can
> understand, but twenty times!?!  This has gone beyond the expression
> of one's opinion.
> 
> HEY! Grow Up!
> 
> You have the right to voice your opinion, but when IG doesn't take
> your opinion or position, then move on.  If you don't like that they
> didn't drop the 3 sided dice Fine!  Won't fix FS, Fine!  Don't buy
> IG products!  GO write your own game but leave this whining ,
> whimpering, drool off the net.  It is a waste of bandwidth.


And now, I'll tell ya:

That's it everybody!  Let's do what Tim and JD are suggesting!

Let's just blindly buy IG products--no matter the quality. 

Let's buy two editions of everything they put out--the first busted 
version and the second busted version with an explanation why it is 
not really busted, if you look at it right.

Let's buy every product IG puts out--no matter if we can use it or 
not.

Let's not get angry that IG is re-publishing broken material.

Let's not get upset that IG's quality control sucks.

Let's not voice an opinon, scream, shout, or even set our hair on 
fire to get IG to notice what is wrong with the stuff they are 
putting out.

Let's play with a task system, done a second time, that continues to 
be broken--I mean hey, they fixed the original problems, right?  They 
can't help it if their fix also has problems of its own.

Let's just keep putting up with this shit.



Well, I'll tell ya Tim, and you too JD, the battle cry here is not to 
GROW UP.  It's to STAND UP!

Stand up for the game that captures your imagination and makes us so 
passionate about it.

Stand up and let IG know when they are making a bad decision.

Stand up and have an affect on the quality of the game that we are 
all pooring hundreds of dollars into.

STAND UP AND LET THEM KNOW WHAT WE EXPECT OUT OF THEM.



We are the customers, after all, and beyond that, we are not casual 
consumers.  We are all crazy about this game, and we take it 
personally when we feel we are being treated poorly.  Most of us buy 
everything with a Traveller logo on it--but look, from the recent 
posts, this is starting to changel.

This FS/M0 decision feels like betrayal.  Maybe IG will see all of 
these die hard fans taking so much offense to their decision that 
they will change it to make us happy.

Let's hope so.  

And guess what Tim and JD?  If IG does listen, you too will benefit 
from the rest of us standing up for what we believe in with regard to 
this game-- because the future products you buy will be much better 
than the crap we are seeing now.

Or, maybe, like your posts insinuated, you really don't care about 
Traveller being the premier SF game in existence, because in order 
for it to be that, we've got to see better stuff from IG than what we 
are seeing.

Get off your butts.  STAND UP, and help make Traveller what all the 
other game companies talk about.

STAND UP.

Kenneth.  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 15:57:19 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: KBv2.0

> Ken - got your system last night. Great job!

Thanks!  I was hoping you would like it.

> 	I have a couple questions, though:
> 
> 	1) How do you handle DMs as presented in T4 or MM's fixed system? In
> T4, they are roughly equivalent to 1 skill or attribute level, but since
> KBv2.0 weights these differently, are the DMs weighted as well?

The DMs in KBv2.0 weigh exactly the same as they do in T4--otherwise, 
KBv2.0 would not be a good fix.

I've had this question before--maybe I should put something in the 
KBv2.0 rules about it.

Here's an example (when I refer to T4 below, I'm refering to 
T4-Revised, but the example works with original T4 as well):

Sample character--         Jed  Attribute 7, Skill 3

Under T4-Revised:  Target number is 10
Under KBv2.0:  Target number is 16

Under T4-Revised:  Difficult throw is a 2.5D proposition
Under KBv2.0:  Difficult throw is a 4D proposition

Under T4-Revised:  Chance of success is 71.3%
Under KBv2.0:  Chance of success is 76%

As you can see, the % chance of success is about the same, but 
because of the way KBv2.0 calculates target numbers, a character's 
skill has more impact on that % being what it is.

 Now, if we add a +1 DM to the mix--

Under T4-Revised:  Target number becomes 11
Under KBv2.0:  Target number becomes 17

Under T4-Revised:  Chance of success is increased to 82.4%
Under KBv2.0:  Chance of success is increased to 84.1%

So, you see, DMs in KBv2.0 are weighted about the same as they are in 
T4.  Therefore, when using KBv2.0, you should use DMs just like you 
do if you were using T4 as is.

I purposely designed KBv2.0 to allow for this.  I put a lot of work 
into the system, and I think I've covered every eventuality--this is 
why I promote it so hard, and this is why the people who really 
understand it like it as much as they do. 

 It seems
> to me as if the effects of these DMs falls off drastically as the
> difficulty increases - more dice to roll, and less of a change
> (percentage wise) in the target number.

This is true in T4 and T4-Revised as well because of the multiple 
dice used.  KBv2.0 will give you about the same increase per DM as 
these other official systems--as I detailed above.

My answer is--use DMs with no modification in KBv2.0.  The proof of 
the impact being the same is in the above example.


> 	2) Experience - If I read your system right, characters advance by
> skill levels, rather than experience levels. This gives a rather coarse
> experience curve - by jumps of three.

Basically, KBv2.0 says that 1 skill level is worth 3 points in an 
attribute.  Let's test that.

The average attribute is 7.  The average skill level is 2.   Under 
KBv2.0, a character's experience score for this skill would be 6.

And, 6 is about equal to 7.

And assumption is made in KBv2.0 that, although there is no skill 
level maximum, skill levels will begin leveling off between 5 and 6.  
A level 7 skill should be incredibley rare.  This is the way skills 
were weighted in CT and MT.  TNE skills were weighted about double 
that of CT/MT.  Since T4 is based on CT, I chose to weight skills 
appropriately.

Now, if you use the T4 chargen system, you might get a character with 
some outrageous skill level--like level 9 or so.  This is a problem 
with the T4 chargen system, and Marc Miller has written to me in a 
private post that he intends to fix this in T4-Revised.

I expect skills in T4-Revised to be weighted about the same as in 
CT, except characters will have more skills in total than they did 
before.

Right now, to combat this, you might want to impose some sort of 
throw for chargen per year to decrease the skill level awards in that 
system until T4-Revised comes out.

> 	I think a rather interesting idea, which would smooth this out
> somewhat, is to roll against 1/3 experience, but only add 1 experience
> level. This would smooth out the curve a bit, and, if you increase
> experience awards to reflect this change in cost, would allow a greater
> flexibility in handing out experience. Jack of all Trades advances would
> cost three times as much, and be rolled against the current level. This
> would represent the difficulty in advancing knowledge in many subjects
> simultaneously.

I, and some other TMLers, are working on an experience system for 
KBv2.0, and our plan, so far, is to implement an idea similiar to 
what you have proposed.

The idea is that a character's experience score will go up one point 
when he improves.  On the third such increase, the character will be 
raised one level.  In doing this, you will have the smooth curve that 
you are talking about.

I'm waiting to see what the T4-Revised experience system will be 
like.  The one in the original T4 book is certainly broken,and I want 
to see what IG will do with it.

I don't want to put a lot of work into a system only to find a good 
one in the T4-Revised rules.  And, even if the T4-Revised xp system 
is broken, I want my KBv2.0 fix to be as much like it as possible.

I design rules that fit seemlessly into the original game mechanics.  
I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel--I just want logical fixes to 
problems in the official rules.  I'm not trying to design my own 
system.

In order to do that, I have to wait to see what the official rule is 
going to be.  After T4-Revised comes out, I'll decide on what 
experience system works best with KBv2.0.

If you have any more questions regarding KBv2.0, Ryan, I'll be glad 
to answer them.

Again, I'm glad you like KBv2.0.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:33:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Relativistic manuever drives

   Hi.

   The subject of relativistic motion by Traveller starships came up
   recently.  I had posted some information on it, but I also begged off
   posting complete equations because I had difficulty deriving them.

   Well, I have succeeded, so here they are.

   Conventions:

   All distances in meters, times in seconds, acceleration in meters per
   second squared (where 1G = 10 m/s^2, 2G = 20 m/s^2, and so on). All
   equations assume that the ship starts from rest at the origin,
   accelerates to midpoint and then decellerates to rest at the
   destination.

   D = distance in meters
   A = acceleration in m/s^2
   t = dialated time as experienced by the starship's crew
   T = undialated time as experienced by the planetary populations
   c = speed of light: 300,000,000 meters per second

   D = (1/4) * A * t^2
   t = sqrt(4*D/A)

   D = (c^2/A) * (  sqrt(4+(A*T/c)^2) - 2  )
   T = (c/A) * sqrt( (A*D/c^2)*(A*D/c^2 + 4) )

   I hope these help out you high velocity buffs out there.

   Here is a table I made for trips with transit times of less than 10
   years (dialated).  Here (in the table) D is measured in light years
   (3.2 ly to a hex), A is measured in G's, and the times are in years.

   D	A	T	t
   ----------------------------
   0.1	1	0.64	0.63
   0.2	1	0.92	0.89
   0.4	1	1.33	1.26
   0.8	1	1.96	1.79
   1.6	1	2.99	2.53
   3.2	1	4.80	3.58
   6.4	1	8.16	5.06
   12.8	1	14.66	7.16
   25.6	1	27.53	10.12

   0.1	2	0.46	0.45
   0.2	2	0.66	0.63
   0.4	2	0.98	0.89
   0.8	2	1.50	1.26
   1.6	2	2.40	1.79
   3.2	2	4.08	2.53
   6.4	2	7.33	3.58
   12.8	2	13.76	5.06
   25.6	2	26.58	7.16
   51.2	2	52.19	10.12

   0.1	3	0.38	0.37
   0.2	3	0.55	0.52
   0.4	3	0.83	0.73
   0.8	3	1.31	1.03
   1.6	3	2.17	1.46
   3.2	3	3.81	2.07
   6.4	3	7.04	2.92
   12.8	3	13.45	4.13
   25.6	3	26.26	5.84
   51.2	3	51.86	8.26
   102	3	103.06	11.68

   0.1	4	0.33	0.32
   0.2	4	0.49	0.45
   0.4	4	0.75	0.63
   0.8	4	1.20	0.89
   1.6	4	2.04	1.26
   3.2	4	3.67	1.79
   6.4	4	6.88	2.53
   12.8	4	13.29	3.58
   25.6	4	26.10	5.06
   51.2	4	51.70	7.16
   102	4	102.90	10.12

   0.1	5	0.30	0.28
   0.2	5	0.45	0.40
   0.4	5	0.69	0.57
   0.8	5	1.13	0.80
   1.6	5	1.96	1.13
   3.2	5	3.58	1.60
   6.4	5	6.79	2.26
   12.8	5	13.19	3.20
   25.6	5	26.00	4.53
   51.2	5	51.60	6.40
   102	5	102.80	9.05
   205	5	205.20	12.80

   0.1	6	0.28	0.26
   0.2	6	0.42	0.37
   0.4	6	0.65	0.52
   0.8	6	1.08	0.73
   1.6	6	1.90	1.03
   3.2	6	3.52	1.46
   6.4	6	6.73	2.07
   12.8	6	13.13	2.92
   25.6	6	25.93	4.13
   51.2	6	51.53	5.84
   102	6	102.73	8.26
   205	6	205.13	11.68

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 15:38:31 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Relativistic manuever drives

This all makes me want to go out and dig up "The Forever War", by Joe
Haldeman, there was a (IIRC) good treatment of sublight travel at high
accelerations. Another one (ye gods...another unconsious source for the
Forlorn!) by Poul Anderson, called "Tau Factor" also dealt with it.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 15:45:51 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Fix for starports in FS (was: IG Pricing Policy)

At 02:16 PM 5/16/97 +0000, you wrote:
>In reading all of these posts on the problems in FS, I have a 
>question.
>
>Did Marc Miller really do the work on FS?  I mean his name is on it, 
>but did somebody else do the half assed work, and Marc just slapped 
>his name on it?  Or did Marc just do a bad job himself?

One thing to note - the creation of FS, I suspect, involved very little
data grooming.  I suspect Marc has a spreadsheet that was to reduce the
UPPs from later eras to those of M0, and that he tested it a bit, but did
not notice the bug that made LAW=GOV.  Further, from what was said before,
the books were never shown to outside people before being shipped, and only
lightly looked at in house, so all responsibility for individual books
rested with the authors and the typesetter, while there was nobody with the
job of consistency analysis.  It shows, and hopefully, the new management
will not make quite as many mistakes.  We shall see.

From what Joe said, the M0 authors were told that the subsector map in the
basic book would be canon, but then had the FS map implanted after
publication.  He likely had not read the galleys of M0 that included the
places of interest before he did FS, and so did not take any care to make
M0 in any way consistent with the FS data - he could not have.  (I would
refuse to do a FS under those conditions, but I am not privy to IG
finances, or the contracts he signed.  He might not have had a choice, or
he might not have been able to force the authors to work in concert with him.)

I do not have a facile argument for why Vland, etc., was not carefully
checked, and I still find the whole thing nigh unforgivable, but at least
it is understandable, and a result of lousy process.  At the time this was
done, Marc was not shown works in progress until they were too late to
change.  Not a great way to run a railroad, and it produced an unbelievable
amount of ill will, but at least it makes a kind of sense.  Hopefully, they
have learned that you cannot do this and expect your customers to take you
seriously.  They claim to have, and to have fixed the process.

Scott

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 00:04:55 +0100
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Ship economics -- fuel comsumption

At 14:16 16/05/97 +0000, Kenneth Bearden wrote:
>> 	Also, what happens to the energy stored in the crystals after 2 or 3
>> hours? It has to go somewhere...
>
>The SOM says that if the energy is not released in 2-3 hours, the 
>crystals will explosively decompose and do significant damage to the 
>ship.
>
	So how would the energy get discharged if it wasn't used for a jump? Does
one roll on engineering skill to discharge the jump capacitors without
damaging the engine room, or deck, or ship, or killing the crew, or other
interesting etceteras?

	See ya...


Bruce E J Lewis - mailto:bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk
Telephone - 0956-506527

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 00:53:20 +0100 (BST)
From: Eamon Patrick Watters <E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Confessions of a Traveller Junkie(LONG) Marc Miller, there is a

On Fri, 16 May 1997, Paul Walker wrote:

> Well, I have been relatively silent over the last two months, and it seems
> recently that many people have come to the same conclusions that I have come
> to.
> 
> Let me back up...
> 
> About two months ago, it became obvious that Traveller was taking too much
> of my time.
<Bit about abused wife syndrome experience for the Traveller Fan snipped>

A sad tale Paul!

> The setting, January 1996.  There I sat, at my office.  Having recently
> gotten access to the Internet, I was pleased to find that there was much
> about Traveller to be explored and exploited.  I had personally just added
> all but the last five books to my TNE collection, when... Oh NO!!!  This
> CAN'T BE!!  GDW to close its doors?   Say it ain't so!

I remember where I was when I learn't of that, sweating over a hot keyboard.

> But wait!  There was another glimmer of light.  "All rights for Traveller
> will revert to Marc Miller."  YES!!!  I had not had the pleasure of owning
> much of CT or MT, but I had seen (and more importantly, played) enough of it
> to know that this man, the creator, would certainly not let the vision die.

I remember that too. Weep!

> The hardback finally did arrive, but by then, the damage had been done--I
> had begun reading the soft cover T4.  I admit, the major turn-off for me was
> that I was used to the extended TNE rules and T4 was VERY simplified from
> TNE.  But, and what a but it turned out to be, there were also errors in T4.
> But this Mailing List, they were quick to respond, they began collecting all
> the errors in one place for future publication on the internet.  This was
> good.  No, it wasn't great anymore, but it was still good.

I Tried. I really TRIED with T4. I'm not so much a systems man, though I
liked the TNE sys. I scoured my old Traveller Collection. I independantly
discovered most of the wonderful background that CORE fitted into M0. Then
the Crap Maps and Crap Stats spewed forth from FS. I Knew that if I 
was to run M0 I'd have to put a lot more effort than it was worth into it - 
all because of the crappy FS data. I could have screamed - and I did.
Sad thing was that I was running a successful M0 game at my local club. 

<Stuff about T4 supps to date, and the 3 rehashes being spewed at us snipped>
<Well except for the fact that Newts RULE!!!!!>

<Abuse of the Traveller fan snipped - but with  a I agree>

 
> MESSAGE TO MARC MILLER:
<Snipped save for:>
 
> Are you getting what you wanted for Traveller?

I know that I'm not, and I was one of the people who bothered to 
send on what I'd like to see in the new Traveller

Last note to Paul: You didn't sell your TNE stuff did you?

Tell me you didn't!

Eamon.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 11:15:22 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: ANCIENT Grandfather

On Fri, 16 May 1997, Anders Backman wrote:

> >Whos to say that he new, or even cared who would be the major races?
> >Also, your assuming he uses the same gauge we use to measure a major race
> >- jump drive.  Maybe he uses sentinent's not technology?
> 
> This is even more sinister. Grandfather doesn't care or know about the six
> races he picked on the Coyns later development of j-drives on their own,
> neither did he help them do it. This implies that whatever method
> grandfather used to pick these six races out of I'd say several hundred
> sentient races at the time also with 100% hit rate nailed them as
> independent j-drive developers. What strange innate ability does the major
> races have that grandfather could detect that is ESSENTIAL to inventing
> j-drives. This leads credence to the racist theory that somehow minor races
> really are inferior and could NEVER have developed j-drives themselves.
> 
> Enough to put even a Virushi into berserker rage.

Then the Solomani *are* right :)

Long live the Solomani!


PaChi,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


	If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs then 
	the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 11:12:32 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: ANCIENT Grandfather

On Fri, 16 May 1997, Anders Backman wrote:

> >> Assuming that there are more inteligent major races in the galaxy,
> >> he choose the 6 we are familiar with, because these are the six which are
> >> closest to the Droyne home world (where ever that is).
> 
> Not the case - there are several sophonts in the Spinward marches alone -
> much closer to Droyne homeworld than say Aslans or Kkree.

Good point, but I said *major* race.  Then again it might have been a
GDW design decision and no reasoning can be attached to it at this point
in time.



PaChi,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


	If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs then 
	the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 11:31:26 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Arthur C. Clarke

On Fri, 16 May 1997 Kagehira@aol.com wrote:

The thing about Clarke is he justifies everyting in his novels.  The
inertialess drive and Zero Point Field he uses in 3001.  If you read the
appendix at the back he has numerous papers quoted from reputable
scientists on the *hypothesis* of these ideas.  He agrees that it may not
ever happen, but atleast he has *some* basis in what we knows now, in
science fact.

Something similiar to inertialess drives can be observed in nature, so
its not completely unlikely.  The Zero Point Field seems to be another
holy grail - get something for nothing, but whos to say that by the 52
Century (Solomani TIme:) we would not have such a thing.

>        I think some people are going to have to take Clark off their hard
> science pedestal as this author insists on using inertia drives that achieve
> thousands of kps with little effort and power plants that pull energy from
> 'vacuum', as I keep hearing these things are scientifically possible.
> 
> Bryan Borich
> 
> 
> 


PaChi,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


	If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs then 
	the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 11:31:26 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Arthur C. Clarke

On Fri, 16 May 1997 Kagehira@aol.com wrote:

The thing about Clarke is he justifies everyting in his novels.  The
inertialess drive and Zero Point Field he uses in 3001.  If you read the
appendix at the back he has numerous papers quoted from reputable
scientists on the *hypothesis* of these ideas.  He agrees that it may not
ever happen, but atleast he has *some* basis in what we knows now, in
science fact.

Something similiar to inertialess drives can be observed in nature, so
its not completely unlikely.  The Zero Point Field seems to be another
holy grail - get something for nothing, but whos to say that by the 52
Century (Solomani TIme:) we would not have such a thing.

>        I think some people are going to have to take Clark off their hard
> science pedestal as this author insists on using inertia drives that achieve
> thousands of kps with little effort and power plants that pull energy from
> 'vacuum', as I keep hearing these things are scientifically possible.
> 
> Bryan Borich
> 
> 
> 


PaChi,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


	If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs then 
	the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 11:50:06 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Ancients & Jump Drive

On Fri, 16 May 1997, Ethan Henry wrote:

> What? There's _lots_ of evidence.

Actually no there is not.  Reverse engineering something is different from
somebody handing you a technology.  What I am saying here is that
Grandfather did not appear to each race during a specific time and said
"here, this is jump drive, this is how you use it - now go colonise the
Universe!"  there is zero evidence for this for most of the "major races"

[snip]
> The Solmani - hm, discovered Ancient Artifacts in the asteroid belt
>  and on some Jovian moons, discovers jump drive in the same place...
>  Hmmmm... coincidence?

I think the solomani discovered it, thats why they went so quickly from
J-1 drives to J-3.  Also, the Solomani alien module does not say anything
about ancient sites on the moons of Jupiter(that i can find anyway) - your
thinking of 2010.

> The Hivers - they developed the "inferior" jump drive by themselves,
>  but after a few hundred years of exploration, one day, poof! A new,
>  better jump drive! How about they discovered an Ancient site
>  and "upgraded" their drives.

Dont have the module so cant say - but a few hundred years is a pretty
long time, I am sure Grandfather did not help them.

PaChi,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


	If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs then 
	the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:39:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: 1G? and hard science

> Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 14:51:28 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
> 
> > Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:38:00 -0400 (EDT)
> > From: Brett Fishburne <bfish@atlantech.net>
> 
> > This makes me wonder -- doesn't the rate of acceleration increase as the
> > fuel load decreases?  If F=ma then a=F/m which means that as the mass
> > decreases the force increases.  
> 
>    That is certainly true for rockets, but it does not apply to
>    Traveller manuever drives, which are magical and maintain a constant
>    acceleration when hooked up to a magical Traveller power plant.

Or rather, using less emotionally loaded terms, Traveller propusion
systems use a small enough fraction of the total craft's mass that, as a
simplifying assumption, this change of mass is neglected in calculating
accelerations.  As I noted in an earlier post, FF&S provides both the full
realistic analysis and a simplified method for applying it as "alternate
technology," for anyone interested in the nitty gritty details.  However,
as spacecraft in Traveller are plot devices rather than NASA design
studies, I find it more than sufficient that they are (a) reasonably
credible, and (b) well-defined in performance and characteristics. 

>    The magic of Trav manuever drives, jump drives, and two-dimensional
>    starmaps is an inherant part of Trav, and has been with the game
>    since its first incarnation.  The obviousness of this fact makes me
>    wonder where many people on this list have gotten the impression that
>    Trav is "hard" science fiction.  A few possibilities occur to me:

Two-dimensional starmaps are admittedly silly, but again, are
plot/simplicity driven, and needn't be construed as reducing the
'hardness' of Traveller's SF.  What players want to know is how far apart
(say) Regina and Rhylanor are, and what they'll find in between.  A
three-dimensional map could answer the same question more 'realistically',
but would also (with today's technology) be incredibly hard to use.

Traveller maneuver drives aren't all that magical, either.  HEPlaR barely
strains my credulity -- I mean, yes, it's mind-bogglingly efficient, but
fusing hydrogen and spouting it out the stern is pretty straightforward
extrapolation.  Thrusters without any modifications from canon violate
energy conservation, but for game purposes I'm willing to handwave in an
explanation for them...and note that a lot of SF widely accepted as 'hard'
(e.g., Niven's Known Space, Clarke's Rama sequence) feature reactionless
drives.

Jump drive is, frankly, pure magic...but do you reject any SF featuring
FTL as 'soft'? 

>    2)  The techno-babble introduced in many late DGP and TNE products
>    gave the illusion that some Trav manuever drives obey physical
>    conservation laws.

Actually, a lot of their technobabble annoyed me, as they blew a thing or
two pretty badly, IMHO.  But I didn't mind seeing them make the effort.  I
don't recall any of these products claiming to have solved the
conservation problems, however.

>    3)  The gritty realism of Traveller's historical canon makes the
>    technical details of the game appear "hard" by association.

The canon history is as swiss-cheese-like as the canon technology.  STL
expeditions from Terra winding up just short of the Marches?  Idyllic
garden worlds with 80 inhabitants, one parsec away from horrid dirtballs
with corrosive atmospheres -- and the latter allegedly settled thousands
of years ago by refugees from dozens of parsecs away?  A Zhodani
deep-cover espionage effort naming -- in Imperial records! -- an Imperial
planet's ocean in the Zhodani language?  800 dton vessels being described
as "battlecruisers"?  Vilani living and working within a few parsecs of
Terra for many centuries without ever hopping into Sol system and
contacting us?  And those are all from CT -- I won't even start on the
fish-in-a-barrel exercise that is M0.

>    Whatever the causes, I just felt the need to point out, in
>    contradiction to what some have asserted on this list, that Traveller
>    is not and never has been a "hard" science-fiction game.

I know of damn few harder ones, and only one involving interstellar travel --
2300 AD.

> > Or are the numbers so huge that the change
> > in F is negligable?  Wouldn't this require some sort of integral to
> > calculate accurately?
> 
>    For chemical rockets, the change is not negligible.  In free space,
>    the calculation requires the use of differential equations to solve,
>    and you get this result:
> 
>    	v = S logn(1 + m/(M-m))

Which simplifies to:

        v = S ln(M/(M-m))

which is equivalent to the form someone else posted.

>    where v is the rocket's change in velocity, S is the specific impulse
>    of the rocket fuel (3000 Newton-seconds per kilogram for the best
>    chemical fuels), m is the mass of the fuel used, and M is the initial
>    mass of the fully loaded rocket with fuel.  Logn is my notation for
>    the natural logarithm.  The result, v, is in meters per second.  In
>    the jargon of the field, v is called "delta vee".

S is not the specific impulse, but rather the exhaust velocity.  Isp is
measured in seconds; a "Newton-second per kilogram" reduces to "meters per
second."  (Newton = kg m/s2, * s = kg m/s, / kg = m/s)

>    So for a rocket with a mass made up of 90% fuel, its maximum speed
>    would be
> 
>    	v = (3000 m/s) logn(1 + 0.9M/(M - 0.9M)) = 3000 m/s * logn(10)
>    	  = 6900 m/s
> 
>    Not very impressive by Traveller standards.

Yeah, but what do you expect for 3 km/s exhaust speeds?  Give the exhaust
a velocity of 0.001 c (= 3e5 m/s) and the delta-v rises to 6.9e5 m/s, or a
respectable 700 km/s = 2.5 million km/hr, or about 40 BL/BR hexes per
half-hour turn...right in the ballpark of actual Traveller ship
performance.

> > Don't you also need to consider proximity to large masses as they can
> > accelerate or decelerate a ship passing by?
> 
>    This is true for small acclerations over short periods of time, but
>    in Traveller, starships have the ability to perform large
>    accelerations for /very/ long periods of time.  A /single/
>    space-combat turn in Trav is 1000 seconds long, as long as the entire

1800 seconds, actually, in BL/BR...not sure in M0, my stomach can't take
reading its space combat section too often. :) 

>    firing duration of a Saturn V rocket. The gravity fields of a typical
>    solar system cannot compete in any meaningful way with these
>    starships, and their effects can be ignored to first order. The
>    original incarnation had rules for the effects of planetary gravities
>    on starship manuever.  Back when I first started playing the game, it
>    took me about 15 minutes to realize that these effects could safely
>    be ignored, and I haven't noticed those rules in any later
>    incarnations of the game. 8^)

Yeah, I used to run LBB space combats near black holes and neutron stars,
just so there'd be something pulling powerfully enough to make Trav ships
notice it existed. :) 

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1333
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 17 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1334



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: IG Pricing Policy
Re: Stand UP!
GT's May THUDD.. second edition
What I would like to buy from IG
RE: ANCIENT Grandfather
Re: ANCIENT Grandfather
Re: Ancients and jump-space
Re: First Survey 'Errata' and IG Pricing Policy
Re: 1G accel?
Re: On culture shock and technological change
Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth
Re: Releasing old stuff (Re: IG Pricing Policy)
Re: Ship economics -- fuel consumption
Re: GT's May THUDD.. second edition
Re: First Survey 'Errata' and IG Pricing Policy
Re: The Imperial Army
Re: Re; Ship Sizes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 18:19:37 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: IG Pricing Policy

At 02:23 PM 5/16/97 -0500, you wrote:

>> Hang on... perhaps lower caste Vilani don't count as citizens, and the data
>> reflects the position prior to Vland joining the Imperium! ;-)
>
>Works for me.

I got it!  After the Long Night, the rest of the Vilani had.. sort of
vanished.  Into thin air.  (Burp) 

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|   about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|   Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|     -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin" |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 18:15:19 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Stand UP!

At 03:57 PM 5/16/97 +0000, Kenneth wrote:

>That's it everybody!  Let's do what Tim and JD are suggesting!
>
>Let's just blindly buy IG products--no matter the quality. 

I believe the original complaint was about your never missing a chance to
complain about IG not buying KBv2.0. You did some good work, many people
have congratulated you on it, many people are using your system.  IG,
however passed.  End of story.

Rather than moan to the list about IG, I have informed them in email that I
will not buy their products without closely examining them first.  I have
informed them that they can no longer count on a number of long-time
Traveller players, people who formally reached for their wallets in a
Pavalovian response to new Traveller, simply because of their inexcusable
lack of quality.

Complaining to the list is becoming an excercise in preaching to the choir.
 You need to reach IG directly, and inform them directly of what is making
you upset.  No diss to Joe, but one guy saying "the TML is upset" doesn't
have nearly the impact of several dozen polite messages, clearly stating
the problems you have with the current policies.


- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|   about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|   Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|     -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin" |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 18:49:37 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: GT's May THUDD.. second edition

>The PR people responsible for the previous release of the Terrapin's data
have been sacked, and replaced with llamas.  Here is my final entry in the
May THUDD
>
>
>
>Gridlore Technologies
>Terrapin Exploratory Merchant Cruiser (SSDS/FFS using Starship-V2)
>submitted by Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
> 
>Tons: 2400 (Cylinder SL)   Volume: 33600 m3       Cost: 912.8974 MCr
>Crew: 49                   High/Mid Pass: 10      Low Pass: 30
>Cargo: 852 tons             Controls: Std(Bridge) TL: 12
>
>9 Size                          3 Jump Drive (240 tons/Pc Fuel)
>4 Fire Control                  1G Maneuver (Thruster plate, 462 MW)
>4x Laser Batteries (3x 95 Mj)   0.9 Power Plant (1057 MW)
>(+1) 2-0-0-0                    731.3 Fuel (Scoop 1920, Refine 6)
>                                2 Meson Screen (2 MW) 
>                                6 Sandcasters (180 cans)
>1x spacious hangar (90-ton)     1 Nuclear Damper (15 MW)
>2x Sick Bay                     10A 5P 4J Sensors
>Machine/Electronic Shops        20 Armor, 16 Structure
>Laboratory
>
>Crew: 2 Maneuver, 3 Electronics, 4 Engineer, 10 Gunnery, 5 Maintenance, 12
Ship's Troops, 3 Flight, 1 Medic, 4 Command, 5 Science
>Accom: 34 small staterooms, 30 low berths
>1x 90 ton "Terrapin Transit" 90t shuttle.
>
>Inspired by Sir Arameth Gridlore's own legendary travels beyond Sylean
space, and drawing heavily on his experiences, Gridlore Technologies and
Trans-C Naval Architects are proud to introduce the -Terrapin- Class
Exploratory Trader.
>
>The -Terrapin- is an 80m cylinder, flared slightly at the aft for better
control when wilderness refueling.  The ship devotes over a third of its
gross displacement to cargo storage, enough to prove profitable on any run.
 But there is more to the -Terrapin- than carrying freight!
>
>The -Terrapin- is equipped with powerful Quinn-Arturo "Phase III" jump
drives, allowing jump 3.  Standard thrusters grant constant acceleration of
1g, and can be overdriven for brief periods if necessary.  Power is
provided by a custom-designed X-tek Fusion plant, and is fueled for one
year's operation at full load.
>
>The electronics suite has been designed with the idea that most places the
- -Terrapin- travels will not have local travel control.  Active EMS sensors
are accurate out to 10 LS, passive sensors to 5.  This allows early
detection of any threat, to allow the maximum decision time for the
Captain.  Communications are routed through either a .3 Mw maser array, or
broadcast by the 1 Mw radio system.  Defensive EMS systems include a
standard EMS jammer (120k km radius) and a strong area jammer (90k km radius.)
>
>If the worst comes, this turtle has teeth!  Mounting twelve Isher Artifact
L-1013 95 Mj laser turrets, organized into four batteries by Navy standard
FDC-11A2 master fire direction centers, the ship can bring effective fire
on its enemies.  (Note: no allowance has been made for direct turret
control.  All weapons are operated from the MFC.)  While these powerful
beams slice at your foe, you can feel secure, guarded by thick armor, 6
sand casters, a *15 Mw* nuclear damper, and a 2 Mw meson screen.  It isn't
a warship, but the -Terrapin- can certainly hold her own in a fight.
>
>Interface operations will normally be carried out be the -Terrapin
Transit- shuttle, included in the purchase price.
>
>Terrapin Transit Shuttle
>-
>Tons: 90 (Wedge AF)       Volume: 1260 m3        Cost: 28.45 MCr
>Crew: 2                   High/Mid Pass: 0       Low Pass: 0
>Cargo: 67 tons            Controls: Std          TL: 12
>
>7 Size0                        No Jump drive
>0 Fire Control                 3 Maneuver (Thruster plate, 51.975 MW)
>                               1.6 Power Plant (74 MW) 
>                               0.8 Fuel (Scoop 36) 
>                               0 Meson Screen (0 MW) 
>                               0 Sandcasters (0 cans) 
>                               0 Nuclear Damper
>                               2A 1P 0J Sensors
>                               10 Armor, 7 Structure
>
>Crew: 1 Maneuver, 1 Electronics
>Accom: Seats Adequate x 55
>
>The ship has a crew of 49, including a full squad of security personnel
and berths for a five person research/science section.  The science section
is intended to include such personnel as linguistic sophontologists,
historians, and others to assist in making contact with worlds that may not
have seen a Starship since Twilight.  -Terrapins- have ten small staterooms
for passengers.  When no passengers are boarded, the spare rooms are
designed to be used for extra berthing space to relieve stress, or as crew
recreation facilities.  Also standard are thirty low passage berths.
Workshops are provided, capable of fabricating any but the largest, most
complex parts.  Technical specifications are provided in both computer and
hard format to aid repairs, and most systems having self-diagnostic/repair
aid programs.  A general purpose laboratory can be found on "C" deck.  This
small facility is not designed for in-depth research, but will suffice for
most inquiries.  The ship's sick bay can accommodate up to 16 patients in a
pinch, though 10 is standard.
>
>A word about cost.  Many designers prefer to work with modular components,
accepting "close enough" as a substitute for workmanship, and then claim
that the savings in cost justifies the act.  Don't be fooled.  When you are
50pc from the nearest help, close enough isn't good enough.  Trans-C goes
to the trouble of designing to the most exacting tolerances because we feel
your life is worth it.  Don't you agree?
>
>Design Notes:
>
>I have tried to balance merchant and exploratory missions with the
Terrapin, and feel that it works well in both roles.  The fairly large
cargo capacity, along with the passenger complement, means that the ship is
profitable; while the strong sensors and on-board labs make the ship a
reasonable scout cruiser.
>
>This design used the excellent spreadsheet "ss-v2.xls"  I can't remember
where I found it, but my hat is off to the author, this is very easy to use.
>
>This is a ship for adventures.  This is the reason behind the large cast
of scientists and soldiers.  You can boldly go where no one has gone before
(or, at least for 2000 years...) and play a variety of adventures; not just
merchant, but military, diplomatic, deep space fighting..
>
>Hope you enjoy!  as always, comments and questions welcome.
>
>
>
>--
>+-------------------------------------------------+
>|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
>|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
>|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
>|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
>|*************************************************|
>|   "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
>|   about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
>|   Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
>|     -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin" |
>+-------------------------------------------------+

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|   about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|   Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|     -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin" |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 04:09:20 -0700
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au>
Subject: What I would like to buy from IG

Firstly, Milleau 0 but not First Survey. From what I've read and 
seen on the TML, FS is too broken, but M0 looks interesting enough for
me to shell out $40 on it (buying gaming stuff in Australia is an
expensive hobby. We live with it).

The actual T4 rulebook I'll pass on. I have the T4 character design
program and I dislike the T4 task system. I have enough starship
designs from the THUDDs et al and enough CT stuff to fake it.

CSC and/or EA I'll think about (or more likely get a player to get).

What I want is A5 subsector and world books. I want to know what
the trade routes are. I want to know what worlds are moons on
gas giants, and what worlds have GSBaG representitives on them.
I want names and squadron numbers for local defense squadrons,
and where they import their spare parts from. I want thumbnail
skitches of the commanders of IISS installations, and what the
political factions at Court are planning for the world or subsector.
In short, I want enough detail to pick it up, read it and then 
think and run scenarios. And I want it selling in Australia for 
$20, which means $8.95 in the US. 

I want the Alien modules reprinted for Milleau 0 - especially the
Solomani and Vilani, who were the two main cultures of Humaniti,
that dominated the Imperium.

I want the THUDD competitions printed. You could do a rip and 
print job on them, and you have "Traders and Escorts". Pad it
to 32 designs, add 12 pages of artwork, and you have a 
supplement.

I want a GURPS Imperium book, not because I love GURPS as a 
system, but because it will create a market for the rest of
the IG "background" supplements.

I want a supplement for us serious economics junkies, something
along the lines of "Commercial Shipping Analysis of the Imperium",
with Imports, Exports and shipping throughput for every world in
the Imperium, and maps of the major trade flows. I want it to
do for trading what World Builders Handbook did for rolling up
UPPs.

Thats what I want.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 15:23:34 +0400
From: Andy Long <andyl@icluae.co.ae>
Subject: RE: ANCIENT Grandfather

>>>>
>-----Original Message-----
>From:	Michael Solomani Mifsud [SMTP:solomani@electric-rain.net]
>Sent:	Saturday, May 17, 1997 5:15 AM
>On Fri, 16 May 1997, Anders Backman wrote:
>
><Snip>
>> This is even more sinister. Grandfather doesn't care or know about the six
>> races he picked on the Coyns later development of j-drives on their own,
>> neither did he help them do it. This implies that whatever method
>> grandfather used to pick these six races out of I'd say several hundred
>> sentient races at the time also with 100% hit rate nailed them as
>> independent j-drive developers. What strange innate ability does the major
>> races have that grandfather could detect that is ESSENTIAL to inventing
>> j-drives. This leads credence to the racist theory that somehow minor races
>> really are inferior and could NEVER have developed j-drives themselves.
>> 
>[andy long]  <<<<
>
>Except that the Aslan didn't.......
>
>================================================================
>smtp Email:	andyl@icluae.co.ae OR
>		andylong@x400.icl.co.uk OR
>		A.G.Long@abu0101.wins.icl.co.uk OR
>		andylong@emirates.net.ae
>x400 Email:	c=ae;a=emdan;p=icl;ou1=abu0101;s=Long;i=AG;
>		o=International Computers Ltd;
>A.G. Long, c/o ICL	Phone:	+971 (2) 335200/338066
>PO Box 7237		Fax:	+971 (2) 338724
>Abu Dhabi
>United Arab Emirates
>================================================================
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 21:51:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: ANCIENT Grandfather

In mail you write:

>> IIRC, the Droyne home world was in the Regina Subsector and is one of the
>> worlds in grandfathers pocket dimension.  That's why no one has ever has
>> found it.
>
> Is it - cool!  I thought the three planets in the pocket dimension he
> created was for those who were faithful to him in the Great War?  

Different pocket universe. Grandfather made several of them.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 23:47:10 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Ancients and jump-space

In mail you write:

>>I have further speculated, but not actually played, that jump-space
>>only works around known-space and the Zhodani core corridor.  This
>>would allow for Vinge style slow zones.
>
> Another cool idea!  If the Ancients created jump space, they only put it
> where they were, and we're the lucky beneficiaries.  What's Vinge?  

Vernor Vinge, an SF author who isn't *nearly* as well recognized as he
should be. The specific reference is to a book of his titled "A Fire
Upon the Deep", which has a rather neat concept about the way spacetime
is put together...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 23:04:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: First Survey 'Errata' and IG Pricing Policy

In mail you write:

> When I am done, I will post it, but I expect that is will be only minor
> modifications on the usual, such as
>
> TL      Min POP Max POP
> 1       ~ 10^6          ~ 10^7
> 9       ~ 10^8          ~ 10^10
> 12      ~ 10^9          ~ 10^11
>
> Note: min pop is that population which is within easy travel and
> communication.  For a TL9+ culture, it is the worlds within one or two
> jumps.  Max pop is for an earthlike planet.

Min pop should be the minimum *viable* population. Which at low tech
levels can be as small as a few hundred.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 03:39:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: 1G accel?

In mail you write:

> This makes me wonder -- doesn't the rate of acceleration increase as the
> fuel load decreases?  If F=ma then a=F/m which means that as the mass
> decreases the force increases.  Or are the numbers so huge that the change
> in F is negligable?  Wouldn't this require some sort of integral to
> calculate accurately?

With low specific impulse (Isp) rockets, you do have to worry about
this. But with the High Isp rockets in Traveller it's not much of a
concern. 

Isp = thrust /(mass flow of fuel)
Isp = Exhaust velocity / g = Ve/9.8

The way rockets work, you get the change in velocity from the change in
*mass* and a bit of math.

delta V = Ve*ln(starting mass/ending mass)

It doesn't matter *what* rate you burn the fuel at. Just that you do so.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 01:49:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: On culture shock and technological change

In mail you write:

> It's tempting to think we would cope better in 2097 if we were
> transplanted.  I think we would. Surely the fundamental scientific
> discoveries have already been made.  Dont misread me I am also sure that
> there will be *major* improvements in technology, but will there be
> anything so new, so magical and as incomprehensible to us as a pocket
> claculator or a video camera, or a TV or a plane would be to an 1000AD
> Egyptian?

I tend to believe Vinge's concept of the Singularity. There will come a
point when everything that we can *imagine* that is allowable by the
universe can be done. And it's likelt to be less than 100 years from
now. So anything after that point is *literally* unimaginable.

An example from *recent* history of an idea that no one *imagined* is
video games and the consequent development of virtual reality. We
imagined TV and "supercomputers", but never thought to put them
together that way before it was already happening in reality.

> In the end though, its just mental excercise, none of us will know what
> the next 1000 years will bring, but I would like to think that a man of
> the late 20th century could cope much better if he was banished to the
> late 30th century - then the poor Egyptian from 1000AD could ever hope to.

Here's a relevant quote:

"I went to my first computer conference at the New York Hilton about 20
 years ago.  When somebody there predicted the market for microprocessors
 would eventually be in the millions, someone else said, "Where are they
 all going to go? It's not like you need a computer in every doorknob!"

 Years later, I went back to the same hotel.  I noticed the room keys had
 been replaced by electronic cards you slide into slots in the doors.

 There was a computer in every doorknob."

        -- Danny Hillis

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 23:21:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth

In mail you write:

> But we don't really know what really violates our universe because we 
> don't have one universial tehory that covers everything. Rules and laws
> of the universe evolve, just look at the Newtonian laws. Now we have
> Einstein revisions of these laws. And If you take a deep look at
> quantum mechanics and relativistic theories, you'll find that these
> two collide on some rather important issues. 

The only places they "collide" are areas where we haven't been able to
make observations. Once we make observatiions *those* set the standard
for "right".

>> > So who's to say that next year some bright grad student won't crack the
>> > secret of anti-grav or cheap fusion?  If they do, our children and
>> [snip]
>> 
>> They wont be discovered *if* they violate the rules of the universe.  So
>> either the rules are wrong, or the discovery is impossible - I would like
>> to think the rules are right, or very close to right at this point in
>> time.
>
> But that is it. Maybe our laws are wrong. They might explain what we 
> have seen today, but they can still be wrong. For example take the 
> Earth. A thousand years ago the world was explained as flat, which
> was a fair approximation for what they could see.

Sorry, but the Greeks figured out that the Earth was round 2500-3000
years ago. Any educated person in Europe or the near east knew this a
thousand years ago. (Side note: the big problem with Columbus was that
he thought the world was *smaller*, both he and his critics agreed that
it was round. BTW, Columbus *was* wrong!)


> A hundred years 
> ago we thought the world was round, which at that time also explained
> what we could see. Today we say that the world is ellipticly shaped,
> because satellites has told os that it is. Tomorrow we might discover
> that this notion has evolved yet another step. 

And this is where people get confused. To a first approximation, the
earth is a sphere. If you need more accurtacy, you dicover that there's
an equatorial bulge due to spin. This is a correction of *feet* out of
a total distance of thousands of miles. Satellites came up with a
*third* correction, which has more mass south of the equator than north
of it. This is a fix of *inches*.

All the rules go this way. When a subject first becomes a science, it
gets an *accurate* approximation of reality. As study continues, you
get better and better idea of what the rules are. But that "first cut"
answer is still there, but with corrective factors added. 

So, for example, according to Newton, gravity is proportional to mass.
Einstein showed that energy, momentum, and angular momentum also
"stress" space in a manner that produces gravity. It just takes a *lot*
more. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 16:53:00 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Releasing old stuff (Re: IG Pricing Policy)

- -> >I completely agree. I wish that IG would finally grant the NEW DGP
- -> >the license to rerelease their old books.
- -> 
- -> I would also be great to see some of the old GDW stuff (like the
- -> Spinward Marches campaign).
I agree! I just tried to purchase it in an auction, but when the 
price went above 15 $ for the LBB, i had to quit :-(. 
Now if it were rereleased, the prices would surely drop, as it 
becomes easily accessible to everyone! Would piss of those money 
grubbing collectors that only collect because of the value, too! (I 
hate those from my M:TG times!)
 



Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 15:09:09 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Ship economics -- fuel consumption

Kenneth Bearden writes:
>>Eh? That's precisely what they're used for. A jump-2 ship dosen't need a
>>jump governor to make a 1-parsec jump. But if it dosen't have one it pays
>>for a full jump-2. Otherwise, what do you think they do?
> 
>Well, I'll copy a section from the SOM.  This is what I think they 
>are used for.
>
>[quote deleted] 
>
>Basically, I think the jump governor does just what this paragraph 
>says--it supervises and controls the charge to the specific places in 
>the lanthanum hull grid.  It does nothing with fuel.

You're quite right. The Megatraveller jump governor is a completely
different dingus than the CT jump governor. The Megatraveller version is
merely a bit of local color. The CT jump governor has a function:

"JUMP GOVERNOR: It is possible to procure a jump governor for ships
produced according to Book 2. It allows such a ship to utilize fuel more
efficiently; instead of consuming all fuel when performing a jump, 
regardless of jump number, the ship will consume fuel equal to 0.1MJn,
where Jn is the actual jump number used, rather than the maximum jump
number available. Available at any industrial world with tech level 10
or higher. Cost: Cr300 000. Mass: 1 ton. Ships produced according to
this book already have the jump governor as part of their drives."
[High Guard, p. 32].
 
>I think I'm just going to keep it the standard way.  The reasoning in 
>the SOM makes sense to me.

The "reasoning" in the SOM is just as much doubletalk as the "reasoning" 
in CT (Less, actually, since CT dosen't attempt to explain the workings
of the jump drive at all, rather than the flawed explanation of Mega-
traveller). The salient point is wether it makes sense in context. Since
Megatraveller jump drives use different fuel consumptions than CT drives
then it may make sense to change the other rule too. But I will advice
you to consider the matter carefully, since the absences or presence of
jump governors will affect grand strategy profoundly, especially prior
to the invention of drop tanks in the late 10th Century.

If warships can't jump short and retain some fuel, I'd expect to see a
lot of designs with auxilliary jump-1 drives.

Personally I'd think that with T4 being a return to CT, the jump governor
should be considered back in business again, at least until we learn
differently from official side.

 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 08:51:54 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: GT's May THUDD.. second edition

On Fri, 16 May 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> >The -Terrapin- is equipped with powerful Quinn-Arturo "Phase III" jump
> drives, allowing jump 3.

	Yeah...but watch out for those misjumps...get's kinda slippery
there in hyperspace, no telling WHERE you'll end up sliding when you come
out ;-)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 10:15:31 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: First Survey 'Errata' and IG Pricing Policy

>In mail you write:
>
>> When I am done, I will post it, but I expect that is will be only minor
>> modifications on the usual, such as
>> TL      Min POP Max POP
>> 1       ~ 10^6          ~ 10^7

>> Note: min pop is that population which is within easy travel and
>> communication.  For a TL9+ culture, it is the worlds within one or two
>> jumps.  Max pop is for an earthlike planet.
>
>Min pop should be the minimum *viable* population. Which at low tech
>levels can be as small as a few hundred.

IIRC, they have some fairly sophistocated technology even at TL 1, which I
suspect would require more than a few hundred people.  Since I do not have
my books handy to check that, I am willing to recant if presented with
proper canon :)

More seriously, I read a study on weaponry that indicated that general
gunmaking required a population of at least in the hundreds of thousands
top provide the aniclliary technology of metal refining, extracting
resources over the wide area usually associated with hot springs and cave
walls, and so on.  It was assuming the "perfect" distribution of 1700-1800
technology as well.

I will see if I can rustle that up again.

Scott

- -------
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu.  http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz/
"You die, she dies, EVERYbody dies" - Heavy Metal
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment results" -
Calvin Coolidge, attrib. by Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 97 18:54 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: The Imperial Army

In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970430111638.00a4cf5c@iconz.co.nz>

<< You only need to invade if you need the world's resources Right Now. If 
you
can wait then just blockade. Blockades have the advantage that none of your
guys get killed, which is always good for you polical career. >>

Nobles don't worry about being voted out of office.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 97 18:54 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Re; Ship Sizes

In-Reply-To: <v02140b08af926d4f9655@[192.121.125.201]>

> 
> >What's Marathon Infinity when it's at home?
> >
> >Andy
> 
> It's a cool Macintosh and PC game a la Doom but with a real story and
> better graphics. It comes with two editors that lets you create maps,
> textures, enemies et c. There's already a beautiful Subsidized 
merchant
> that you can run around in (until the baddies shoot you down that is).

I can only find the Mac version :-(

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1334
***********************************

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Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 17 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1335



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Releasing old stuff (Re: IG Pricing Policy)
Re: 1G? and hard science
Re: GT's May THUDD.. second edition
Re: What I would like to buy from IG
Re: Ships in Port?
Re: 1G accel?
Re: IG and Errata
Re.- Dickens lives, in T4!
Re: Polyhedra
Relativistic manuever drives
Re: Relativisitic Travel Times
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1329
Overblown angst
Re: Stand UP!
A book all refs must have.
My *NEW* URL....
Solomani Core Expeditions...
Re: Ship economics -- fuel consumption

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 12:58:14 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Releasing old stuff (Re: IG Pricing Policy)

On Sat, 17 May 1997, Volker A. Greimann wrote:

> I agree! I just tried to purchase it in an auction, but when the 
> price went above 15 $ for the LBB, i had to quit :-(. 
> Now if it were rereleased, the prices would surely drop, as it 
> becomes easily accessible to everyone! Would piss of those money 
> grubbing collectors that only collect because of the value, too! (I 
> hate those from my M:TG times!)

Before IG came along, when I was desperately seeking a mint copy of 
Azhanti High Lightning for under $200, I was thinking along the same 
lines as you are, above.  I thought, "If GDW re-released Azhanti for $80 
a copy, they could clean up - no development costs, just add a note about 
the printing edition to the copyright page, and send it to the 
printers.  Sell it over the 'net if no distributers are interested."

I still lack a copy of Adventure 12 (Secret of the Ancients) and a copy 
of Atlas of the Imperium.  But, I've pretty much given up on finding 
them.

Whenever IG releases Milieu 1100, I agree that a lot of that stuff should 
be re-released.  Bundle the Adventures and Double Adventures into a few 
volumes.  Reprint the Spinward Marches Campaign and The Traveller 
Adventure.  All updated for the current rules, of course.

Anyway...

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh  |  Game Designer for Marc Miller's Traveller
_________________|  Atari 1200XL and Apple IIGS User and Programmer

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 11:17:53 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: 1G? and hard science

At 05:39 PM 5/16/97 -0700, you wrote:

>The canon history is as swiss-cheese-like as the canon technology.  STL
>expeditions from Terra winding up just short of the Marches? 

Grandfather did it!  Or maybe it was all a Templar plot!

> Idyllic garden worlds with 80 inhabitants, one parsec away from horrid
>dirtballs with corrosive atmospheres 

Actually, I'm working with one of those right now.. Tenalphi/Lunion (1826)
A774102-E Lo Ni An.  Why so few people?  The phrases "small moon",
"decaying orbit", and "Roche Limit" have much to do with it.

>800 dton vessels being described as "battlecruisers"?

Be fair, the Kinunir was 1200 tons, back when 5000 was the limit.

 

>Yeah, I used to run LBB space combats near black holes and neutron stars,
>just so there'd be something pulling powerfully enough to make Trav ships
>notice it existed. :) 

Or to have a good excuse to kill off you kid brother's character.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|   about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|   Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|     -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin" |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 10:48:14 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: GT's May THUDD.. second edition

At 08:51 AM 5/17/97 -0700, Bruce wrote:
>On Fri, 16 May 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>
>> >The -Terrapin- is equipped with powerful Quinn-Arturo "Phase III" jump
>> drives, allowing jump 3.
>
>	Yeah...but watch out for those misjumps...get's kinda slippery
>there in hyperspace, no telling WHERE you'll end up sliding when you come
>out ;-)

I'm glad somebody got the reference.  This was deliberate, done to scare
one of my players who is utterly paranoid, and reads subtext into
everything.  When they boarded the Pride of Cucamonga, he read the name on
the drive housing and started moaning about missjumps and my well-known
penchant for genre mixing.

This was a Good Thing.

BTW, Do we have a list of all the companies that we've created for the
ISBA/THUDD?  Not just the shipyards, but all the subcontractors.

A near-c cookie for anyone, other than Craig, who can guess where I'm
getting these names from...


- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|   about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|   Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|     -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin" |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 11:08:56 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: What I would like to buy from IG

At 04:09 AM 5/17/96 -0700, Ian Whitchurch wrote:

>Firstly, Milleau 0 but not First Survey. From what I've read and 
>seen on the TML, FS is too broken, but M0 looks interesting enough for
>me to shell out $40 on it (buying gaming stuff in Australia is an
>expensive hobby. We live with it).

Speaking for myself, I'd wait (again!) for the Milieu 0 Campaign.  Due out
<mumblemumble>.  Yes, you'll get the crappy FS data, but also you'll get
M:0, the director's cut.

>The actual T4 rulebook I'll pass on. I have the T4 character design
>program and I dislike the T4 task system. I have enough starship
>designs from the THUDDs et al and enough CT stuff to fake it.

I sent my money order in a few weeks back.  Ghod help them if I get a book
as pathetic as I'm fearing.  Since I'm now using CORPS, it probably won't
come to violence, but a one-man embargo is a real possibility.

>CSC and/or EA I'll think about (or more likely get a player to get).

These two I can honestly recommend.  Both are by Greg Porter who is one of
the better designers out there, and both are generally useful for any
Traveller setting.

>What I want is A5 subsector and world books. I want to know what
>the trade routes are. I want to know what worlds are moons on
>gas giants, and what worlds have GSBaG representitives on them.
>I want names and squadron numbers for local defense squadrons,
>and where they import their spare parts from. I want thumbnail
>skitches of the commanders of IISS installations, and what the
>political factions at Court are planning for the world or subsector.
>In short, I want enough detail to pick it up, read it and then 
>think and run scenarios. And I want it selling in Australia for 
>$20, which means $8.95 in the US. 

Well, I'm currently writing up the Lunion subsector for the classic era.
This will be a detailed, complete exploration of all 30-odd worlds, their
systems, cultures, etc.  I'll be putting it on the web, and making it
avalible for downloads in Word 6.0.  (Once I'm done, if anyone wishes to
convert it to a Mac format, feel free to contact me.)

>I want the Alien modules reprinted for Milleau 0 - especially the
>Solomani and Vilani, who were the two main cultures of Humaniti,
>that dominated the Imperium.

I'm waiting to see what happens with the Big Book O' Aliens we've been
promised.  I would like to see these covered as well, though I have both
Digest Group alien books, so I'm pretty well covered there.

>I want the THUDD competitions printed. You could do a rip and 
>print job on them, and you have "Traders and Escorts". Pad it
>to 32 designs, add 12 pages of artwork, and you have a 
>supplement.

This is a very good idea.  How about it CORE?  We take, say, the first 12
THUDD winners, do deckplans and illustrations, and sell the puppy.
Speaking for myself, I'd contribute any designs of mine that make the cut
(vote for the Terrapin, vote for the Terrapin) for the knowledge that I've
helped produce a quality product and promise from some of the BITSers that
if I ever get to the ancesteral isle, I'd have crash space and local guides.

Hell, include a section on design tricks, write-ups for some of our
corporations.. I'd buy this!

>I want a GURPS Imperium book, not because I love GURPS as a 
>system, but because it will create a market for the rest of
>the IG "background" supplements.

Sorry, but not a chance.  Steve Jackson evidently asked about this, and was
turned down.  (Loren, is that correct?  This is something I heard from a
SJG staffer at a con.)  Anyway, SJG is shying away from licensed products
for GURPS, focussing on home-brewed settings and generic supplements.
Traditionally, the licensed worldbooks do very poorly.

>I want a supplement for us serious economics junkies, something
>along the lines of "Commercial Shipping Analysis of the Imperium",
>with Imports, Exports and shipping throughput for every world in
>the Imperium, and maps of the major trade flows. I want it to
>do for trading what World Builders Handbook did for rolling up
>UPPs.

Put that one on my wish list too!  Traveller has always meant trade to me,
it's one of the few games I know where being a merchant can *be* the
adventure, not just backround material.



- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|   about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|   Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|     -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin" |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 12:23:29 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Ships in Port?

At 09:13 am 05/16/97 -0600, you wrote:

>>I have tried using the unstuffit using LF conversions and no conversions.
>>When I try and open it with or without updating links I get garbage. I am
>>using Excel 97 for Winblows 95. Could you try save them as sylk files and
>>send them to me uncompressed?
>
>I've absconded with copies of them and put them uncompresses into my
>archive (http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/archive/spreadsheets/) -
>I changed the naming of the files so my web server would know to specify
>them as Excel spreadsheets, which might cause problems for them, but
>they're pretty much ready to go. As I remember, it called "WBH" for macros,
>which I renamed to "WBH.xls".

	Joe, do you want updated (Excel95) copies in ZIP format to post as well?
I'm not finding any time at all to keep my site up-to-date, although I hope
that changes in a month or two.

	BTW, Excel uses ".xlm" for macro sheets, I believe.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 12:22:02 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: 1G accel?

At 09:17 am 05/16/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Don't you also need to consider proximity to large masses as they can
>accelerate or decelerate a ship passing by?

	For more accuracy, yes. But in deep space, where you can pretty much
neglect everything else, this'll work fine.

>Brett
>
>At 05:45 PM 5/15/97 -0600, David J. Golden wrote:
>>At 03:07 pm 05/15/97 +1000, you wrote:
>>>
>>>A ship in normal space with 1g of blast acceleration would travel how
>>>fast/far?  An answer in km/hour would be cool if anyone knows of the top
>>>of thier heads.  Thanks.
>>
>>	1G of acceleration tells me nothing about "how fast/how far." To determine
>>how fast, you have to tell me how long you're accelerating. To determine
>>how far, the answer is forever until it hits something. A few useful
equations
>>
>>	d= distance
>>	a= acceleration
>>	v= velocity
>>	t= time elapsed
>>	v0= initial velocity (at t=0)
>>
>>	d= 0.5*a*t^2 + v0*t
>>	v= a*t
>>
>>	
>>-- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
>>   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
>>    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***
>>
>> "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
>>  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
>>  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine
>>
>>
>>
>
>
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 12:32:30 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: IG and Errata

At 03:57 pm 05/16/97 +0000, you wrote:
>
>> 	Has anybody out there considered bundling up all the messages in this
>> topic, adding a brief summary, and then forwarding the whole lot to IG?
>
>I'm not sure if that would work, Dave.  In fact, I'm not even sure if 
>IG cares.
>
>For a while, when I found a piece of errata in the IG products, I 
>would forward a short message to IG at suggestions@imperiumgame.com.
>
>I figured that I was doing my part by forwarding these things.  Silly 
>me, I figured that IG would be interested in errors in their products 
>and want to correct them in future printings.
>
>Well, I got a message from IG saying that I shouldn't forward this 
>stuff anymore, and if I had an actual game question, they gave me 
>another e-mail address to forward it to.
>
>So, given this, I'm not really sure if IG really cares what we all 
>think of their using obviously bad data in the new printing of FS/M0.
>
>They are going to do it anyway, so why even try to make this game we 
>love so much better than it is?

	Because we care. And if enough people let IG AND Marc (farfuture@aol.com)
know what a cockup this is, maybe they'll listen. A short concise summary
of our complaints and suggested fixes, plus 35K of original messages, might
wake the clue-bird.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 02:02:27 +0200
From: Miguel Rodriguez <Miguel_Rodriguez@seker.es>
Subject: Re.- Dickens lives, in T4!

Rob Prior wrote,

>I'll be running my first B5 game this weekend.  If it goes well, I think=
 I
will >switch to a B5/TNE mix, with Space 1889 for when I feel like space
opera.  I >like the B5 personal combat system, the character generation
system is excellent >for beginners, and (as you say) it has a wealth of
_consistent_ background >material.


When I saw TBP, conscient that I was going to expend more money in gaming
material than my actual economy allowed, I thought that was what I expected
from a game system.=20

T4 was a deception to me too. I didn't like the half dices, not the
more-than-two-dice rolls (Am I old fashioned?), not the constant errors of
the many supplements that followed (with little exceptions, like Milieu 0),
not to speak of the price (in Spain, with the dollar crowning the peak of
our nightmares, a T4 supplement is really, really expensive=8A) =20

So well, they =B3screw=B2 me too, as a matter of fact; but served to see th=
e
light and fall over MT again. After that, I started to collect old
Traveller material, those things that signed an era in sf gaming that has
not been improved. I regret to seem a nostalgic being only 25 (I started
playing with a capital group of players in Barcelona which formed a real
core of Traveller afficionados =ADwith the added struggle of going through=
 a
lot of efforts to get the material from the states=AD) but I been silent
because I thought that those opinions were only mine; what I readed in TML
were constant rules fixing of people which were losing time :=AD) working
over things that were, simply, bad designed.=20

Sorry to waste bandwith with this personal and sad =B3Dickens like=B2 histo=
ry.

miguel.=20
=20

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 97 21:03 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Polyhedra

In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970507053152.22e74fe4@bbs.logicnet.com>

<< >I haven't seen the movie yet, but does this by chance have anything 
to do
>with "The Fifth Element"?

Good question. I haven't seen it either. >>

I think the 5th element is Life.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 12:32:49 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Relativistic manuever drives

Fri, 16 May 1997 17:33:22 -0400 (EDT), Robert Flammang
<FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
>   D = (1/4) * A * t^2
>   t = sqrt(4*D/A)

Do you happen to have the relativistic form of the
v=at equation handy?  (I've been meaning to work it
out and it would save me some time.)

Also, I take it you are assuming that accel. reamains
constant as the ship takes on relativistic mass (instead
of the force of thrust?)

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 16:45:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Relativisitic Travel Times

Re: Rob Flammang's Relativistic Travel Times

Rob,

A truly great post! For the mathematically impaired such as myself, this is
tremendously useful. Thanks a lot.

GMG

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"The courts may not work anymore, but so long as everyone
      is videotaping everyone else, we'll be okay."
                    -- Marge Simpson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 21:49:25 +0100 (BST)
From: "mark.wilkin" <aa4mwi@zen.sunderland.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1329

> 
> Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 22:00:44 -0700 (MST)
> From: scharlto@rtd.com (Steve Charlton)
> Subject: Timothy Bradstreet
> 
> Just a little "Age of GDW" trivia.  I just picked up some new Dc/Vertigo 
> comics, including a 4-issue series about the Unknown Soldier (a character 
> from way back when).  The covers on these looked a bit familiar, and I 
> noticed this evening that they were done by Tim Bradstreet.  Tim used to do 
> a lot of TW2000 artwork (and a little Traveller stuff, I think) for GDW.  
> 
> Nice to see his work again; one of the better military-theme artists, IMHO.
I though that name sounded familar, he also has done a lot of art for 
White Wolf, some of the best art in Vampire is done by him.

mark wilkin

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 16:45:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Overblown angst

To Paul, Ken, and other Recovering Victims of IG:

I'm confused.

I've been lurking through the latest round of complaints about IG, and
here's what I hear:

Yep, we are all appalled by most of the T4 books produced thus far, with
the general exception of CSC, M:0, and EA. The books suffer from poor
editing, ambiguous prose, a vast number of typos, inconsistent rules and
data, lack of playtesting, terrible layout, awful B&W illustrations,
unspeakably hideous deckplans (or none at all!), unpopular choice of color
illustrations and so on. Incredibly, Mark Miller, the guy whose name
appears on the covers, seems to have been left out of the loop during the
production of the first several books. And they're all too expensive. We've
called on IG to fix their numerous errors.

Now I understand that recently IG have moved the offending personnel to
other positions, and hired new editors and new writers, including Mark
Miller himself, a new layout designer, new illustrators, and (presumably)
playtesters; they've delayed books to ensure they are properly edited and
tested, rather than rushing inferior products to the market. They've even
dropped their prices - albeit not as much as we would like, but they're
obviously trying. And in response to our calls for error-correction,
they're completely re-writing Book 1, and reworking other books - with
newly added material so that, even though you have to buy the book again,
you're at least getting something extra with the new edition.

But do they get any credit for any of this? We should be shouting, "This is
good! This is what we want! This is what we asked for! Sure, we'd have
liked it to be done right the FIRST time, but it's nice to see them
learning from their mistakes." But no. Instead of this, I'm hearing more
complaints!

Folks, why are you complaining that IG is reworking the books you
complained about?! First you holler for the books to be corrected. Then,
when IG prepare new books which will correct most of the problems of the
screwy ones, you complain that the value of what you've bought thus far is
being reduced! I think the IG folks are obviously concerned about this
issue. WHY DO YOU THINK THEY WANT TO KEEP THE SYSTEM DATA FROM FS? Why
don't they just do a second edition with new data? Answer: So that people
who already own the book won't feel they've shelled out for something
that's already obsolete - obviously! Duh.

Something else you guys have completely ignored: yes, Joe Walsh said that
the Law Levels will be left as they are, but he also said that the new
version of FS will include a* Law Level UWP extension* - which I take to
mean that the error *is* being fixed - but fixed in a way that doesn't
completely invalidate the books many fans have already bought. Is their
concern for this issue appreciated? Apparently not.

Sure, it's a kludge. Sure, it would've been easier on everyone if FS had
not been edited by incompetents. But in terms of damage control, I think
what IG is doing is not unreasonable. Joe's explanation of the Law Level
bug (the idea that, during the First Survey, Law Level had not yet been
introduced to the UWP) is not completely senseless. Why should everything
in M:0 be exactly the same as during the Fifth Frontier War?

Yes, the Gov=LL bug was an unbelievable screw-up and the book should never
have been sent to press, let alone sent out to the stores, with such an
obvious error. But now that it's too late, why are you dumping all over IG
for trying to come up with a solution that doesn't make things worse? Sure,
you'd like them to replace your books for free? Obviously they would if
they could. But I rather wonder if that's economically feasible. Sounds to
me like a quick route to bankruptcy. (And don't tell me what the Star Wars
publishers would do in this situation! This is irrelevant! IG don't have
Lucasfilm behind them!)

Ken: so they're going to have a half-die in the task system. Have you ever
considered that just maybe it's because Mark balks at asking players to
throw SEVEN DICE for every Impossible Task?! I think this may have a little
something to do with it. (If I were him, I'd choose KBv2.0, but I'm not
him.) Even if he did eliminate that half-die from the Task System, there
are still a number of weapons that do half-die of damage - so it's still
not gone from the game!

Paul: being ripped off by a publisher is not analogous to being raped. Cool it.

Can we maybe tone down the angst a bit, at least until the new books
appear? Can we at least wait and see what these new books really look like
before we start shooting them full of buckshot? Voice any concerns you
have, certainly. Argue for changes before it's too late - good. But let's
not slag IG for trying to *do what we've asked them to do.*

Peeved,

GMG

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"The courts may not work anymore, but so long as everyone
      is videotaping everyone else, we'll be okay."
                    -- Marge Simpson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 15:42:37 -0500
From: Phil Rhodes <Phillip_Rhodes@baylor.edu>
Subject: Re: Stand UP!

</lurk>

At 02:15 PM 5/17/97 -0400, "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
wrote:

>Rather than moan to the list about IG, I have informed them in email that I
>will not buy their products without closely examining them first. 
<snip>
> You need to reach IG directly, and inform them directly of what is making
>you upset.  No diss to Joe, but one guy saying "the TML is upset" doesn't
>have nearly the impact of several dozen polite messages, clearly stating
>the problems you have with the current policies.

I'll second this approach.  I had my doubts before, but this latest 
First Survey debacle was the last straw.  I canceled my T4 hardback 
order and told them why - I could no longer afford to buy products 
from them sight unseen, especially when I know in advance that the
task system in the rulebook will have problems.  I also informed them 
that I could no longer recommend T4 to anyone looking for a SF game 
due to the substandard products and poor customer service.

Maybe if enough people do this, IG will get a clue and wake up.
Vote with your wallets/purses/credit cards!, and let IG know about it!

- -Phil

<lurk>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 15:08:40 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: A book all refs must have.

I finally tracked down a copy of _World Building, A Writer's Guide to
Constructing Star Systems and Life Supporting Planets_ by Stephin L.
Gillett (1996, Writer's Digest Press.  ISBN 0-89879-707-1, 198pp)

This is a must have for any Traveller ref interested in creating realistic
worlds.  It has all of the formula you need, explanations of what happens
at different stages of solar system development, and any number of
adventure hooks.

I got my copy for about $15.00, so it's cheaper than an IG book and more
useful to Traveller players too!

Sorry.

Anyway, this book will make my Lunion work far more intersting...

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|   about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|   Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|     -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin" |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 20:00:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@peterboro.net>
Subject: My *NEW* URL....

For those who let me know, thanks!

As some of you already found out, the URL didn't work!

To make a long story short, the server I'm on (a sub system of the
peterboro.net ISP) doesn't use the "WWW" prefix, but instead uses the
"text" prefix. See below for new URL.


- -- DLH                                 lhadley@peterboro.net

http://text.peterboro.net/~lhadley/Profile.html

  "Fight to fly, fly to fight, fight to win." - TOPGUN motto.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 09:53:44 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Barry <mbarry@pcug.org.au>
Subject: Solomani Core Expeditions...

...were otherwise known as:
The Solomani Rim War (c.1000), and
The Rebellion (c.1116-1122)

**************************************************************************
Michael Barry
mbarry@pcug.org.au               <--- checked daily
**************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 15:09:09 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Ship economics -- fuel consumption

Kenneth Bearden writes:
>>Eh? That's precisely what they're used for. A jump-2 ship dosen't need a
>>jump governor to make a 1-parsec jump. But if it dosen't have one it pays
>>for a full jump-2. Otherwise, what do you think they do?
> 
>Well, I'll copy a section from the SOM.  This is what I think they 
>are used for.
>
>[quote deleted] 
>
>Basically, I think the jump governor does just what this paragraph 
>says--it supervises and controls the charge to the specific places in 
>the lanthanum hull grid.  It does nothing with fuel.

You're quite right. The Megatraveller jump governor is a completely
different dingus than the CT jump governor. The Megatraveller version is
merely a bit of local color. The CT jump governor has a function:

"JUMP GOVERNOR: It is possible to procure a jump governor for ships
produced according to Book 2. It allows such a ship to utilize fuel more
efficiently; instead of consuming all fuel when performing a jump, 
regardless of jump number, the ship will consume fuel equal to 0.1MJn,
where Jn is the actual jump number used, rather than the maximum jump
number available. Available at any industrial world with tech level 10
or higher. Cost: Cr300 000. Mass: 1 ton. Ships produced according to
this book already have the jump governor as part of their drives."
[High Guard, p. 32].
 
>I think I'm just going to keep it the standard way.  The reasoning in 
>the SOM makes sense to me.

The "reasoning" in the SOM is just as much doubletalk as the "reasoning" 
in CT (Less, actually, since CT dosen't attempt to explain the workings
of the jump drive at all, rather than the flawed explanation of Mega-
traveller). The salient point is wether it makes sense in context. Since
Megatraveller jump drives use different fuel consumptions than CT drives
then it may make sense to change the other rule too. But I will advice
you to consider the matter carefully, since the absences or presence of
jump governors will affect grand strategy profoundly, especially prior
to the invention of drop tanks in the late 10th Century.

If warships can't jump short and retain some fuel, I'd expect to see a
lot of designs with auxilliary jump-1 drives.

Personally I'd think that with T4 being a return to CT, the jump governor
should be considered back in business again, at least until we learn
differently from official side.

 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1335
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Sunday, May 18 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1336



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Beyond the Pale
Re: Ancients and jump-space
Re: The Imperial Army
Re: Beyond the Pale
Re: Ship economics -- fuel comsumption
Re: Stand UP!
Re: Releasing old stuff (Re: IG Pricing Policy)
Re: A book all refs must have.
Re: Overblown angst
The IG Positive Thread
T4-Revised
Need help, please
The Right Way to Fix it
RE: [off topic] Second Law of Thermo
S/F Role playing games

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 16:26:51 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@orca.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Beyond the Pale

Roderick Darroch Elliott writes:

>BTW, some of you may recall I posted session synopses of our last
>campaign on a regular basis.  Anyone want to see these again for this round
>of carnage?

The (mis)adventures of the Frozen Glory were among my favorive TML posts,
please post anything from your new campaign. I especially liked the
background info, like the planet Archipelago and the Gunchaku-2000s. Has
anyone bothered to save the posts on a web page?

On this topic, I have been running a campaign for a few months, and was
considering posting excerpts or news releases to the TML. Is there any
interest in this? I can't match Roderick's prose, but I was making TAS-like
news releases for my players and could post them to the TML.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 16:32:32 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@orca.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Ancients and jump-space

>In my campaign, jump-space is an Ancient artifact in itself.  The reason
>the galaxy wasn't overrun with jump capable aliens long ago is because
>it took a Tl 31 race to construct the jump-space in the first place.
>The Tl-9 jump-drive is only an interface device.

Mr. Sinclair, yer a genius. This is so cool and elegant it just became fact
in my campaign. Do you have any other brainstorms, like, say, where
psionics come from?

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 01:30:19 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: The Imperial Army

At 06:54 PM 5/17/97 BST-1, you wrote:
>In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970430111638.00a4cf5c@iconz.co.nz>
>
><< You only need to invade if you need the world's resources Right Now. If 
>you
>can wait then just blockade. Blockades have the advantage that none of your
>guys get killed, which is always good for you polical career. >>
>
>Nobles don't worry about being voted out of office.
>
>    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
>Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
> "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"
>

Not with ballots, but bullets always make an effective means of expressing
popular dissatisfaction with governmental incompetence.

Garry

 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 21:56:15 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@pop.goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: Beyond the Pale

> On this topic, I have been running a campaign for a few months, and was
> considering posting excerpts or news releases to the TML. Is there any
> interest in this? I can't match Roderick's prose, but I was making TAS-like
> news releases for my players and could post them to the TML.

Absolutely!  These types of posts are what I read TML for...

Suz

Suzette C. Dollar
#traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 00:05:23 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Ship economics -- fuel comsumption

> At 14:16 16/05/97 +0000, Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> >> 	Also, what happens to the energy stored in the crystals after 2 or 3

> 	So how would the energy get discharged if it wasn't used for a jump? Does
> one roll on engineering skill to discharge the jump capacitors without
> damaging the engine room, or deck, or ship, or killing the crew, or other
> interesting etceteras?

I dunno.  The book doesn't specify.  I guess the GM could have fun 
with it.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 00:05:24 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Stand UP!

> At 03:57 PM 5/16/97 +0000, Kenneth wrote:
> 
> >That's it everybody!  Let's do what Tim and JD are suggesting!
> >
> >Let's just blindly buy IG products--no matter the quality. 
> 
> I believe the original complaint was about your never missing a chance to
> complain about IG not buying KBv2.0. You did some good work, many people
> have congratulated you on it, many people are using your system.  IG,
> however passed.  End of story.

I never tried to sell KBv2.0 to IG.  I was going to give it to them.

The reason that I still bitch about the T4 revised task system is 
that it still has problems.  This burns me up because IG is taking a 
second wack at it and still screwing up.

There are problems with the T4-Revised task system.  IG doesn't have 
to use KBv2.0--I'd be happy if they used another task system that 
wasn't broken.

KBv2.0 fixes the problems that I am talking about.  I'm not saying it 
is the only fix--it is just the only one I've seen that both 
continues the game mechanics in T4 and fixes the problems.

Basically, it is not that I want them to use KBv2.0 so bad--it's that 
I want them to use a task system that is not broken.

I guess I'll keep bitching about that.  Wait until my review comes 
out for T4-Revised.


> 
> Complaining to the list is becoming an excercise in preaching to the choir.
>  You need to reach IG directly, and inform them directly of what is making
> you upset.  No diss to Joe, but one guy saying "the TML is upset" doesn't
> have nearly the impact of several dozen polite messages, clearly stating
> the problems you have with the current policies.


This is good advice.  I'll do that--even though I've already done it 
in the past.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 21:43:10 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Releasing old stuff (Re: IG Pricing Policy)

> Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 12:58:14 -0500 (CDT)
> From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
> Subject: Re: Releasing old stuff (Re: IG Pricing Policy)
> 
> On Sat, 17 May 1997, Volker A. Greimann wrote:
> 
> > I agree! I just tried to purchase it in an auction, but when the
> > price went above 15 $ for the LBB, i had to quit :-(.
> > Now if it were rereleased, the prices would surely drop, as it
> > becomes easily accessible to everyone! Would piss of those money
> > grubbing collectors that only collect because of the value, too! (I
> > hate those from my M:TG times!)
> 
> Before IG came along, when I was desperately seeking a mint copy of
> Azhanti High Lightning for under $200,

I picked up a copy at a local thriftshop last week for $3.  The
Lightning Class Cruiser supplement was missing & the counters were
punched (but intact) but it was otherwise near mint, the deck plans were
all mint & it even still had the dice & the reply card.

No it is _not_ for sale.

> I was thinking along the same
> lines as you are, above.  I thought, "If GDW re-released Azhanti for  > $80 a copy, they could clean up - no development costs, just add a > note about
> the printing edition to the copyright page, and send it to the
> printers.  Sell it over the 'net if no distributers are interested."

> I still lack a copy of Adventure 12 (Secret of the Ancients)

I saw a copy go for about $8 last month (less than the original cost in
inflation adjusted constant dollars).

> and a copy of Atlas of the Imperium.

This one is a little harder to find but I saw a (worn) copy go for about
$12 a week or so ago.

>  But, I've pretty much given up on finding them.

Don't give up.

You can find these items for sale in rec.games.frp.marketplace.

Just subscribe & read any posts that say Traveller or misc games & you
can find some real bargains.  I just picked up a copy of The Traveller
Adventure for $1 (torn cover otherwise near mint). I have also picked up
good condition copies of Solomani & Aslan, Vilani & Vargr & Starship
Operators Manual for $8 to $10 in the past three months.  If you cannot
access this newsgroup it will be harder I admit & for those of you
outside the USA the postage may be expensive.  If you do not want to pay
the auction price for a Traveller item don't, unless it is really rare
you will probably be able to find another one cheaper later.  A third of
the auctions do not have anyone who really cares that much about
Traveller bidding in them. 

Peter Newman - who probably should not have given away his sources.

P.S. I would also like to see these GDW stuff rereleased but GDW
Traveller stuff is not that hard to find.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 21:54:06 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: A book all refs must have.

> Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 15:08:40 -0700
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> Subject: A book all refs must have.
> 
> I finally tracked down a copy of _World Building, A Writer's Guide to
> Constructing Star Systems and Life Supporting Planets_ by Stephin L.
> Gillett (1996, Writer's Digest Press.  ISBN 0-89879-707-1, 198pp)
> 
> This is a must have for any Traveller ref interested in creating realistic
> worlds.  It has all of the formula you need, explanations of what happens
> at different stages of solar system development, and any number of
> adventure hooks.
> 
> I got my copy for about $15.00, so it's cheaper than an IG book and more
> useful to Traveller players too!
> 
> Sorry.
> 
> Anyway, this book will make my Lunion work far more intersting...

I am normally opposed to me too posts but  "Me, too !" 

It is $16.99 retail.  This book has many, many neat features for a
planet building junkie such as myself.  The book is mostly text but has
lots of usefull formulas & data as well.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 01:30:41 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Overblown angst

> To Paul, Ken, and other Recovering Victims of IG:
> 
> I'm confused.

First off, Glenn, I'd like to congradulate you on a fine post.  It 
was well thought out and written, and even though I may not agree 
with you, your point is concise and clear.

> I've been lurking through the latest round of complaints about IG, and
> here's what I hear:

(snip a butt load of stuff about how IG has screwed up in the past)

> Now I understand that recently IG have moved the offending personnel to
> other positions, and hired new editors and new writers, including Mark
> Miller himself, a new layout designer, new illustrators, and (presumably)
> playtesters; they've delayed books to ensure they are properly edited and
> tested, rather than rushing inferior products to the market. They've even
> dropped their prices - albeit not as much as we would like, but they're
> obviously trying. And in response to our calls for error-correction,
> they're completely re-writing Book 1, and reworking other books - with
> newly added material so that, even though you have to buy the book again,
> you're at least getting something extra with the new edition.
> 
> But do they get any credit for any of this?

Yes.  They received a glowing review from me.  I liked both the EA 
and the CSC--and I thought the M0 book was OK.

I wrote great things about all of these products, and I've supported 
and praised IG for the work that was done on these.

But, I guess my point has been this--

I was just starting to feel better about IG again.  There were some 
growing pains in the beginning, like what you cited in the snipped 
section.  I perservered on.

As you describe above, I saw improvement on the horizon.  As I 
said, the EA is one of the best Traveller products ever produced for 
any product.

Then, just as my faith is being restored and I feel Traveller is 
finally in good hands, I'm hit, again, with a decision that is not 
only ludicrous, but completely idiotic.

It seems that as soon as IG does something that makes you feel good 
about them, they follow it up with something that makes you wonder 
how the hell whoever is in charge got that position.

Follow me here.  T4 main book--OK job, but disappointing in several 
areas.  Starships--completely disappointing.  Central Supply 
Catalog--Finally, a good product.  Aliens Archive--another blah, OK 
product.  Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society #25--disappointing, 
but OK product.  Milieu 0--OK product with problems.  First 
Survey--what a joke.  Referee's Screen--OK, but they could have done 
better.  And, finally, the Emperor's Arsenal--a fabulous work.

Do you see the pattern here?  Disappointing product--awful 
product--pretty good product--mediocre product--disappointing 
product--fair product--incredilbly bad product--disappointing 
product--great product.

Followed by news of the worst T4 product ever produced being 
re-published in an un-fixed format.

 I submit to you that the angst you are seeing is not overblown.  It 
is the result of Traveller lovers tired of buying T4 products that 
are bug ridden and otherwise just OK.

We want so much for Traveller, yet, we've been let down over and 
over.

This is not overblown angst.  What you are seeing is people 
becoming fed up.  I've bought disappointing products before, but 
never in this quantity.

We got our hopes up on seeing the EA--hoping that we had seen the 
last of the big screw ups.  Then we hear of another big screw up 
coming down the pipe.

That's frustrating as hell--especially when your hopes and 
expectations are so high for something.

No, you are not seeing overblown angst.  You're seeing people 
starting to get angry--because they are tired of being let down.

At least, that's the way I feel.  And, I know that I'm not alone from 
all the posts I've read.

 We should be shouting, "This is
> good! This is what we want! This is what we asked for! Sure, we'd have
> liked it to be done right the FIRST time, but it's nice to see them
> learning from their mistakes." But no. Instead of this, I'm hearing more
> complaints!

Wrong.  I posted my ass off about the EA.  Go back and check the 
archives.  Everybody knew how much I liked it.

> Folks, why are you complaining that IG is reworking the books you
> complained about?! First you holler for the books to be corrected. Then,
> when IG prepare new books which will correct most of the problems of the
> screwy ones, you complain that the value of what you've bought thus far is
> being reduced! I think the IG folks are obviously concerned about this
> issue. WHY DO YOU THINK THEY WANT TO KEEP THE SYSTEM DATA FROM FS? Why
> don't they just do a second edition with new data? Answer: So that people
> who already own the book won't feel they've shelled out for something
> that's already obsolete - obviously! Duh.

But, most have found no value in FS.  I don't even crack it.  Keeping 
it the same--the same screwed up data--only keeps the book valueless.

What I'm so angry about is that they are not correcting this stuff.  
What they should do is:

       1)  Correct the data in the book.
       2)  Make erratta sheets or make the info available on the web 
            site.  I'd even be happy with the stuff being in JTAS.
       3)  Publish the hardback M0/FS with correct data.

Any other course of action does not correct the mistake they've made.

> Something else you guys have completely ignored: yes, Joe Walsh said that
> the Law Levels will be left as they are, but he also said that the new
> version of FS will include a* Law Level UWP extension* - which I take to
> mean that the error *is* being fixed - but fixed in a way that doesn't
> completely invalidate the books many fans have already bought. Is their
> concern for this issue appreciated? Apparently not.

This is not a fix.  New LL and Gov codes would be a fix.  This is a 
lazy way of republishing the same broken crap.

It is clear, to many, this is unacceptible.

> Sure, it's a kludge. Sure, it would've been easier on everyone if FS had
> not been edited by incompetents. But in terms of damage control, I think
> what IG is doing is not unreasonable. Joe's explanation of the Law Level
> bug (the idea that, during the First Survey, Law Level had not yet been
> introduced to the UWP) is not completely senseless.

I think that it is crap.

> Yes, the Gov=LL bug was an unbelievable screw-up and the book should never
> have been sent to press, let alone sent out to the stores, with such an
> obvious error. But now that it's too late, why are you dumping all over IG
> for trying to come up with a solution that doesn't make things worse? Sure,
> you'd like them to replace your books for free? 

Actually, I know that they would never do this.  It's buyer beware.  
But the above fixes would suit me.

I'd even buy a few issues of the JTAS to get the correct data.


> Ken: so they're going to have a half-die in the task system. Have you ever
> considered that just maybe it's because Mark balks at asking players to
> throw SEVEN DICE for every Impossible Task?!

Do you really believe that rolling seven dice is that much different 
from rolling five?

 I think this may have a little
> something to do with it. (If I were him, I'd choose KBv2.0, but I'm not
> him.)

Thanks.  But let me make something absolutely clear.  

I'm not angry about them not using KBv2.0.  I'd be happy if they used 
any unbroken task system.  KBv2.0 just happens to be the best 
solution to the problem that I've seen.

IG--I'LL BE HAPPY WITH ANY TASK SYSTEM USED IN T4 AS LONG AS IT IS 
NOT BROKEN.

The half die is a matter of taste.  Most people don't like it--I know 
that from polling the list in between KBv1.1 (which used half dies) 
and KBv2.0.

But, what about the other problems with the T4-Revised task system?

Are you telling me that you are OK with a spectacular success rule 
that actually INCREASES your chance of rolling SS the harder the task 
you attempt?

Or, how about the fact that in T4-Revised, spectacular failure rolls 
cannot be done on Average and Difficult tasks?  

That's right--your character has to attempt a Formidable throw before 
he even has a chance to roll SF.

Are you sure that you are OK with that?

I feel like people are ignoring this.  But, after the task system is 
published in T4-Revised, people will notice.  Then, there will be 
another gripe session about how IG screwed it up again--on their 
second try.

I'm telling you there is a way to fix all these problems.  I hope 
that IG listens before the new book comes out.

Don't use KBv2.0--I don't really care about that.  All I've been 
saying is to come up with a system that is not broken.

> Paul: being ripped off by a publisher is not analogous to being raped. Cool it.

Actually, Paul's point said exactly how I feel.  He didn't mean, as 
he stated, that his feeling of being raped was like the horrible 
crime it is.

He meant that he feels betrayed--and he's angry about what he's 
seen done with Traveller.

I feel the same.

> Can we maybe tone down the angst a bit, at least until the new books
> appear? Can we at least wait and see what these new books really look like
> before we start shooting them full of buckshot? Voice any concerns you
> have, certainly. Argue for changes before it's too late - good. But let's
> not slag IG for trying to *do what we've asked them to do.*

I never asked them to do this.  In fact, you've seen my posts.  I'm 
campaigning against the idiotic decision that IG seems set to do.

I'll tell ya.  The LL=GG is crap.  If they'd replace the data with 
good, I'd probably buy the new hard cover.  If they stay on this 
course, I won't.

> Peeved,

Sorry I made you peeved.  I guess it is a side effect of IG makeing 
me pissed.  

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 01:49:35 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: The IG Positive Thread

OK, it looks like all this negativity is getting to some 
people--including myself.

Let's start a new thread--a thread designed to show IG exactly what 
we have liked in Traveller products in the past.

Pick anything you like about Traveller, from any edition, from any 
company--rules, complete supplements, art, deck plans, history, 
whatever--and state what you like about it and why.

You can talk about a complete work, or just a small part of 
one.  Anything goes.  Name what you like about Traveller.

The idea here is to show IG the Traveller products that we really 
value.  Give them a pattern to follow.  Let's show them 
the type of quality we expect.  Hopefully, IG will look at this stuff 
and get a better idea of what we want to see in the future.

So, how about it?  Who's game to start a positive 
what-I-like-about-Traveller thread with me?

Here's something that comes to mind directly for me.  It is just a 
small thing, but I think IG did a good job with it.

What I'm talking about is the way the new Default skills are handled. 
This is something that should have been implemented into Traveller 
long ago.  It makes a lot of sense that some skills can be attempted 
by a lay-man by just blindly attempting the task.  Likewise, it makes 
sense that there are skills out there that cannot be attempted in 
this manner--like brain surgery.

I like the way a character's skill set (albeit at a negative) is 
improved because of all of the Default skills.  I'm not sure why a 
rule like this was not implemented in Traveller before.

Good job, IG.  I like this rule.

That was short, I know, but it is what came to mind first.

Who's next?  What do you like about Traveller?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 02:32:50 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: T4-Revised

I've got a thought.  

Why don't we, here on the list, define exactly for IG the things in 
Book 1 that we would like to see changed before T4-Revised comes out?

I'm not talking about re-doing an eratta sheet here--what I mean is 
to put together a short list of things that should be looked at and 
revised in the new edition of T4.

This way, if IG listens, they'll have a hint of what we are expecting 
in the new book.  I'm scared that T4-Revised is going to come out, 
and I'm going to be disappointed in it.  Maybe we TMLers can quell 
some of that by making a short list of the things that need 
attention.

For example:  Skills are given too freely in chargen.  Characters hit 
the game with a level 6 skill, two level 4s, three level 3s, and a 
but load of level 2s and 1s.  I think some sort of roll to achieve 
skill  per year (or some other limiting game mechanic) should be 
imposed so that characters are not so strong coming out of the 
generation process.

Don't get me wrong here, though.  I do like a character coming out of 
chargen with a number of different skills--I just don't think that 
some of the character's specialities should be so high.

The characters generated with the old CT/MT one year method 
generation systems seemed to produce the ballance that T4 needs.  IG 
should use those systems as a guide.

Also, I think that IG should look at the experience system.  This 
thing is way too generous. In just a couple of adventures, a 
character is going to become very powerful using this system.  Some 
sort of limit should be imposed.  This experience system with the 
current chargen system is a lethal combination that produces God-like 
characters.  Game ballance is needed here.

I'd like to see an experience system that:

1)  Keeps the distinction of experience between default, regular, and 
new skills--like the current system.

2)  Awards points on at the end of each game session.

3) Allows (restricts)  characters to advance about as fast as they 
did in chargen.

4) Makes attaining a new skill level harder the higher skilled the 
character is.

5)  Imposes a time limit ( a learning limit) for those skills that 
require some type of schooling or additional education.


In short form, T4 revised needs--

     A chargen system that is not so generous with the skils.

     An experience system that is not so generous either.


What would you like to see in T4?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 04:04:02 -0400
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Need help, please

Hi.  

I am running my first Traveller campaign (I'm a long-time fantasy GM) and
am running into trouble.  Please offer suggestions.

1)	One of my players received "Traveller's Aid Society" as a mustering-out
benefit from the Navy.  He wonders why he should ever work, since he can
sell a high passage every two months, giving him an excellent income.

2)	The same character was hired to perform a job on a world some 20 jumps
distant from his starting point.  He purchased passage on a free trader
going in the right direction, but brought along several dozen small Tech-11
computers which he sold for profit on mid-tech worlds, reaping an excellent
profit which not only paid his way but afforded him a Cr50,000 profit.
What am I doing wrong? 

3)	This one may be unanswerable.  Traveller has turned my players into gun
nuts.  I've purposfully  allowed very few situations to arise where
firepower is useful, but they're constantly looking for them and dreaming
of ways to knock off low-tech governments.  It's getting old and infantile
fast.  Any suggestions?

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 05:01:17 -0400
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: The Right Way to Fix it

1)	IG is who we've got.  If we, their best customers, cut them off at the
knees, Traveller will die.  Even Traveller is unlikely to survive having
two companies shot out from under it.  This doesn't mean we should be asked
to buy crap, but it does mean that we should direct our energies toward
promoting Traveller and IG to the outside world  AND this means that we
need IG to see us as their best friends, not their enemies.   THIS means
that we ought to decide what we want and EACH INDIVIDUALLY write actual
paper letters to IG and clearly state what we, the buying public want from
them.

2)	IG screwed up badly with FS.  If you blame them for this, you've never
run a small company.  IG screwed up far worse by not simply saying: "We're
sorry.  We'll try to make it better."

3)	A small company like IG cannot afford to redo FS; it would break them
and Traveller.  They may not even be able to afford to do it correctly in
the M:0 Campaigns.  Resetting type costs the printer a lot of money.  

4)	What should they do then?  I submit that the only real answer is this:
First, just admit the damn mistake.  All human beings screw up.  We'd all
rather have an honest admission than patently silly assertions of "we meant
to do that."  Next, make the appropriate data available in a format that
costs them nothing.  Their Web page would be a good start.  In addition,
printing the correct data in JTAS would be an excellent idea.  These simple
steps would say "We want to please our best customers.  We trust you to
understand our error and we want you to know that we value Traveller as
much as you do.  We're not the jerks you mistook us for."

5)	What is the right data?  Ideally, FS would be written off as a mistake
and the whole data set would be redone, but that's not realistic to expect.
 We'd  be a lot closer to a valuable and useful tool if we just had the
complete and correct UWP for each world.  Hell, I'd be satisfied with an
apology and a list of the correct law and goverment levels in JTAS and the
complete UWPs listed on the IG Web page.

Mostly, while we are justified in feeling that IG is trying to ask us to
forget that it took our money for a fundamentally flawed product, we are
not justified by the comparisons with rape or theft or stupidity.  IG
prints products for our beloved game.  Let's use the carrot as well as the
stick.  Rather than call them names, let's show them that good customer
relations NOW means continued sales FOR THE FUTURE.

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 13:28:10 +0400
From: Andy Long <andyl@icluae.co.ae>
Subject: RE: [off topic] Second Law of Thermo

>>>>
>-----Original Message-----
>From:	Jim Choate [SMTP:ravage@einstein.ssz.com]
>Sent:	Wednesday, May 14, 1997 3:52 AM
>Hi Michl,
>
>> Can someone quote me the *complete* Second law of thermodynamics?
>
>The Three Laws of Thermodynamics
>
>1.  You can't get ahead 
>
>    You can't build a system with more output than input. You can't
>    get something for nothing.
>
>2.  You can't break even
>
>    You can't build a system which has no losses or other wastes.
>
>3.   [andy long]  <<<<
>You can't quit the game!
>>>>>
> The first two rules apply everywhere.
>[andy long]  <<<<
================================================================
smtp Email:	andyl@icluae.co.ae OR
		andylong@x400.icl.co.uk OR
		A.G.Long@abu0101.wins.icl.co.uk OR
		andylong@emirates.net.ae
x400 Email:	c=ae;a=emdan;p=icl;ou1=abu0101;s=Long;i=AG;
		o=International Computers Ltd;
A.G. Long, c/o ICL	Phone:	+971 (2) 335200/338066
PO Box 7237		Fax:	+971 (2) 338724
Abu Dhabi
United Arab Emirates
================================================================
> 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 08:47:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: matth@homer.njit.edu (Matthew Harelick)
Subject: S/F Role playing games

Hi: 

Unlike alot of players on the list, I do not use the Imerium for my 
Universe but rather just use the rule set from classic and
megatraveller. Since the quality of output from IG has been unstable 
as of late I have since considered converting my Universe to a new 
rule set, perhaps GURPS. 

Does anyone else have any other suggestions? 

Matthew Harelick 


- -- 
Matthew Harelick  matth@homer.njit.edu	http://hertz.njit.edu/~msh9848
Real-Time Computing Lab		       http://rtlab12.njit.edu/welcome.html
New Jersey Institute of Technology     http://www.njit.edu

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1336
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Sunday, May 18 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1337



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: ANCIENT Grandfather
CT Book 2 Starships Query
Trash Traveller :was The Right Way to Fix it
yacht
Re: Need help, please
[T97#1332] {VERY LONG} MM, IG, Traveller, and We (was: Abused wives)
Re: Overblown angst
Re: The Right Way to Fix it
Re: Need help, please

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 15:34:22 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: ANCIENT Grandfather

Bruce Johnson writes:
>On Wed, 14 May 1997, Anders Backman wrote:
>  
>>When my players will find this out they will probably kill grandfather
>>themselves.
> 
>Now THAT'S what I call a SERIOUS munchkin campaign ;-)

All they'd need would be a little help from one of the grandkids (one of
those that were smart enough to clone themselves in order to fool Grand-
father into thinking he'd killed them). Or perhaps one of the greatgrand-
children that some of the others undoubtedly had in order to get extra
help against Pops. He's been planning his move for 300,000 years and the
PCs are his catspaws...


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 14:24:54 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: CT Book 2 Starships Query

Anyone out there familiar with the old CT construction rules? If so, I've
got a query! I sort of bypassed book 2 as I bought High Guard at the same
time, and I've just been designing a hybrid book 2 hull and drives, HG
equiped ship. I noticed that the ship's M-Drive and Power plant (C-class,
giving a rating of 3 in a 200 dt hull) are a hell of a lot smaller than
those I could build in HG. Is this a quirk in the system, or are all the
drives say TL15 in book 2?

TIA

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Feel the guilt / like shackles round your feet / like a halo in reverse"
                     Depeche Mode "Violator"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 09:06:14 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Trash Traveller :was The Right Way to Fix it

At 05:01 AM 5/18/97 -0400, Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com> wrote:
>1)	IG is who we've got.  If we, their best customers, cut them off at the
>knees, Traveller will die.  Even Traveller is unlikely to survive having
>two companies shot out from under it.  This doesn't mean we should be asked
>to buy crap, but it does mean that we should direct our energies toward
>promoting Traveller and IG to the outside world  AND this means that we
>need IG to see us as their best friends, not their enemies.   THIS means
>that we ought to decide what we want and EACH INDIVIDUALLY write actual
>paper letters to IG and clearly state what we, the buying public want from
>them.
>

If IG keeps producing TRASH TRAVELLER (TT) let them die. I have been
playing Traveller since 1977-78 era, and I will still be playing Traveller
long after IG is gone. IG does not care one bit as to what "we" want, no
matter how many letters and emails we send them they will not listen. The
plain fact is they consider us atypical customers, meaning we don't fit
into their statistical patterns for marketing. I would rather not blow
smoke up their arse but tell them they are screwing up and where. If that
type of input causes them to go under so be it.

>2)	IG screwed up badly with FS.  If you blame them for this, you've never
>run a small company.  IG screwed up far worse by not simply saying: "We're
>sorry.  We'll try to make it better."
>
>3)	A small company like IG cannot afford to redo FS; it would break them
>and Traveller.  They may not even be able to afford to do it correctly in
>the M:0 Campaigns.  Resetting type costs the printer a lot of money.  
>

Well they are not as poor as we are lead to believe. Many other companies
most even smaller have been able to correct past FUBAR's and not go
bankrupt. If fixing FS kills them RIP.

>4)	What should they do then?  I submit that the only real answer is this:
>First, just admit the damn mistake.  All human beings screw up.  We'd all
>rather have an honest admission than patently silly assertions of "we meant
>to do that."  Next, make the appropriate data available in a format that
>costs them nothing.  Their Web page would be a good start.  In addition,
>printing the correct data in JTAS would be an excellent idea.  These simple
>steps would say "We want to please our best customers.  We trust you to
>understand our error and we want you to know that we value Traveller as
>much as you do.  We're not the jerks you mistook us for."
>

Well the above would be a good new beginning but call me not a Heretic but
a "Doubting Thomas" <g>. 

>5)	What is the right data?  Ideally, FS would be written off as a mistake
>and the whole data set would be redone, but that's not realistic to expect.
> We'd  be a lot closer to a valuable and useful tool if we just had the
>complete and correct UWP for each world.  Hell, I'd be satisfied with an
>apology and a list of the correct law and goverment levels in JTAS and the
>complete UWPs listed on the IG Web page.
>

Well as to FS they are not doing that, I can see a pattern of their
behavior not good for Traveller but Great for TT.

>Mostly, while we are justified in feeling that IG is trying to ask us to
>forget that it took our money for a fundamentally flawed product, we are
>not justified by the comparisons with rape or theft or stupidity.  IG
>prints products for our beloved game.  Let's use the carrot as well as the
>stick.  Rather than call them names, let's show them that good customer
>relations NOW means continued sales FOR THE FUTURE.
>

Well I will not forget and I believe that those comparisons are correct. I
would rather see Traveller die than see more carp produced for it. As for
customer service "if you can't stand the heat get out the kitchen" goes
hand in hand with good customer service and relations. 

By the by I run a post M:0 era do know how long any of the product I have
need have will be produced? A long time from know. I use a bastard kludge
of rules mostly using MT with CT thrown in.

- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 07:36:24 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: yacht

So, after fruitlessly searching the Internet for blueprints of the
yacht, I decided I'd make my own. First, though, I had to go through
the starship design process for the yacht so I could find out how
much space each component occupies.

Because I'm running MT, I dug out the ol' design rules and plugged
away. I soon found out that the standard yacht design doesn't work
with these rules, mostly because all that jump fuel doesn't fit in
a 200 ton hull. 

I started from scratch. I now have a yacht that works (I think) 
except it's a 300 ton ship.

Is there anyone on the TML still using MT? I'm not buying any T4
stuff until I hear from the people on this list that the errata are
gone and that the stuff is worth the money. Anyway, if anyone is
still using MT design rules, would they be willing to check over my
design to ensure I did it correctly? 

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 07:28:04 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Need help, please

Scott Nolan wrote:
> 
> 1)      One of my players received "Traveller's Aid Society" as a mustering-out
> benefit from the Navy.  He wonders why he should ever work, since he can
> sell a high passage every two months, giving him an excellent income.
> 

He doesn't need to work. In my campaign, I have quite a few characters
who have lots of money (and a few that are dirt-poor). They work
because they find jobs interesting, not because of the cash. One of
them is a millionaire but he also owns a starship, which is expensive
to maintain (especially after combat!). All of them, from time to
time, get thrust into adventures without being asked and without getting
paid.

You are limited only by your imagination.

> 2)      The same character was hired to perform a job on a world some 20 jumps
> distant from his starting point.  He purchased passage on a free trader
> going in the right direction, but brought along several dozen small Tech-11
> computers which he sold for profit on mid-tech worlds, reaping an excellent
> profit which not only paid his way but afforded him a Cr50,000 profit.
> What am I doing wrong?
> 

Nothing. You're rewarding a player for showing initiative and 
imagination. Nothing wrong with that. Now, if this player starts to
become disruptive to the game, it's time to change things. You
could have his cargo stolen (or, if it's live cargo, have it escape).
Pirates could board the ship he's one and plunder. The cargo could
turn out to be stolen and some Imperial authorities might wander by
wanting it back. 

There's nothing wrong with wealthy characters, IMHO. Just don't make
all your adventures end with a payment for success.

> 3)      This one may be unanswerable.  Traveller has turned my players into gun
> nuts.  I've purposfully  allowed very few situations to arise where
> firepower is useful, but they're constantly looking for them and dreaming
> of ways to knock off low-tech governments.  It's getting old and infantile
> fast.  Any suggestions?
> 
Sure. Have them get into a situation where the government they're 
trying to knock off has learned of their reputation and has hired
an advanced mercenary team to take them out. If they want to play
gun combat, the mercs will convince them how much REAL combat hurts.
There's always somebody with guns bigger than yours; that's why
guns aren't the answer to most problems.
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 14:51:32 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T97#1332] {VERY LONG} MM, IG, Traveller, and We (was: Abused wives)

"Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com> writes...

>(snip of one of the best posts I've read in a while)

<<Paul to Marc Miller>>

> This is a simple question to you.  Has the past year been worth it?
> Are you seeing in print what you wanted?  Do you like where Traveller =
has gone?
> Bassically, Are you getting what you wanted?

I've got to second this.  I don't generally write "me too" posts,
but I have difficulty believing that this last that we have heard
from IG is in conformance with Marc's image of Traveller - or of
a company, however new, that is the public custodian thereof.  I
urge Marc to think long and hard about this question, and _be_
_honest_with_yourself_.  Then, sit down and have a heart-to-
heart talk with the appropriate people at IG, and keep in the
back of your mind that Roger Sanger/DGP would very likely take
Traveller in a New York microsecond, were it to be offered.

<<Ken to the list>>

>I can't believe how much I agree with Paul's post.  It touches on
>every emotion I've had with regard to T4.

>I wish I would have written it.

It needed to be said.  I have been reluctant to be the one to say
it; I consider it to be out-of-character for me to be vehement
about _anything_ - and vehemence would have been necessary to
properly express my feelings on the matter.  Paul has said
everything I have been thinking, and has done a masterly job of
it.

I understand that business considerations are important to a
business; I also realize that satisfying the customers is the
best way to maximize the probability of success.  Apple learned
it the hard way (or maybe not); if they hadn't looked solely at
the bottom line, they might have been able to keep the IBM PC
from killing the Apple II line - and might also have been able to
make the Mac more of a success than it was.  Ditto Commodore.
WordPerfect made a purely bottom-line business decision to end
unlimited 800 support.  Less than a year later, they sold all
their assets to Novell, and folded.  Novell tried to ride on a
perceived success, and did nothing with it - and sold it - at a
loss - to Corel. Corel is trying - but they're fighting an uphill
battle, and I think it may be too late.  One decision very nearly
killed a product, and did kill a company.

The nature of RPGs makes the survivability of a specializing
company inherently more volatile.  The customers can make you or
break you - even more than they did for WordPerfect - because if
you don't have something that's both unique and non-portable,
they can take what they like from you, and combine it with what
they like from your competitors.  That's an open threat - not
from me, from the marketplace.  If you don't take it seriously,
you lose.  GDW didn't take customer comments seriously, and
didn't take Steve Jackson Games seriously - and I date the death
of GDW to the day that they chose not to react to the release of
the GURPS Basic Set - which was so much like Traveller, but
"fixed" in some ways, that sourcebook/background information was
easily and practically instantly portable.  IG is at a
disadvantage to start - a single background (although the
multiple milieux helps in that respect), and a system that
doesn't strongly compete with GURPS, inarguably one of the most
popular systems available today. Add to that a distinct lack of
public press, and an apparent inability (unwillingness?) to get
shelf space where you might have a shot at broad-based sales
(Barnes and Noble, for starts - they've got D&D and Star Wars,
both of which have name recognition and guaranteed sales - but
they've also got GURPS in at least some stores.  Why GURPS, and
not Traveller?), and you're operating with a major handicap. The
poor start and inconsistent quality since do not inspire
unreserved confidence.  Are you going to add offending your core
constituency to that?

Ignoring for the minute any possibility of personal bias due to
my participation here, Marc and IG (and GDW before them - but
they pretty much ignored us) have an incredible resource,
critiquing service, and cheering section here in the Traveller
Mailing List. This is a "core constituency" that admittedly has a
certain image of what Traveller is/should be - but I have never
seen criticism that was outright unfair; as a group, the List has
not proven to be particularly excitable over minor errors or
questionable design.  Yes, we'll debate the merits of the
half-die, or the handwaving over frac-cee rocks, or the structure
of a feudal (futile?) technocracy, until the cows that finally
came home turn blue in the face. And we'll have differences of
opinion over them for just that long, and we'll each agree to do
whatever "feels right" for our particular campaigns.  We'll agree
to disagree on the small stuff; we understand what RPGs are all
about.  But that in itself should be a clue that when opinion is
universally against a decision, as it was in the case of
Starships, and is in the current case of M0/FS, something is
inarguably badly wrong - a big "GK" or "SOS" in flashing red
letters, with bells, whistles, and sirens.

With the limited (or non-existant?) advertising for Traveller,
your "core constituency" from the paragraph above is pretty much
your primary source of new players.  We talk to our gaming
friends, we bring them into our games, we tell them what's going
on, we try to sell them on our favorite system.  We are your best
advertising. Convince us that what we are doing for your benefit
is "morally indefensible", and you become the proverbial snowball
with no hope of Salvation.  I don't believe anyone here wants
that.  But I also believe that, after the experience with the
last days of GDW, many if not most of us feel that it would be
better to murder Traveller outright, than for it to suffer death
by slow torture.  This isn't melodrama - this is reality, and you
ignore it at your peril.

There's a lot of support for Traveller out there - look at your
own links page, the Traveller Webring, and/or the Freelance
Traveller links page if you don't believe me.  Look at what
mailing lists are available - this one, GDW-Beta, Pocket Empires,
THUDDD, and the Traveller Language Project.  Look at the kind of
material that's appearing in all of these places - detailed
examinations of minor races (Kenji's Sayat, and Joe's Suerrat),
writeups of planets (the RICE and BARD Papers), alternative task
systems (Eris's "D66" system and Ken's 2.0), extensions to the
UWP, and interpretations connected therewith (my "RICE Paper" on
extending the Starport code, and my recent article on stellar
traffic), the writeups and partial writeups and background
material for campaigns (the Near Bootes Cluster campaign, and the
Earth Colonies campaign), the sector detailing projects (Jim's
GALACTIC program and associated mailing list, the History of the
Imperium Working Group, the Yiklerdanzh project), and so on.  We
don't do this because we're being paid to, or because we want to
see any particular company become a success, or other companies
fail.  We do it for one reason, and one reason only - we like
Traveller.  Or maybe I should use that other four-letter dirty
word - we LOVE Traveller.  If we didn't, why would we be wasting
our time and energy on it?

The company that is the custodian of Traveller is truly in a
_leadership_ position.  Not a dictatorial position - if you try
to dictate to us, and say "Thus Traveller shall be; all else is
heresy", we'll tell you in no uncertain terms to get stuffed.
Only "stuffed" isn't the word we'll use.  But, raise a flag that
we can rally to without offending our own consciences, and give
us the Traveller that we can continue to love, and we'll follow
you to Hell itself - except that if you give us that kind of
Traveller, you wouldn't be going anywhere near Hell. We, the
"core constituency", don't _need_ IG to play and enjoy Traveller,
or to keep it alive - Traveller has a long enough and honorable
enough history to sustain us, nostalgically.  But the level of
support, and our willingness to give you our opinions, and our
ideas for solutions to perceived problems, should be an
indication that we _want_ a leader we can follow. The evidence is
that IG _can_ do it - but the important question is not ability,
but _desire_.  Does IG _want_ to lead us into the future of
Traveller?  That question appears to be still open, but there's
some doubt.  As Marc was urged earlier to consider the question
of whether IG has done justice to _his_ idea of _his_ property,
IG must also be urged to the same kind of introspection: Is IG
willing to make the investment, in money, but more importantly in
"moral fiber", to "own up" to past errors, to promise to do
better, and to listen to those  people, individually and
collectively, who don't "do Traveller" for any reason other than
love?  Again, a public statement is not necessary - but honesty
with _oneself_ _is_.

Marc and IG both have something to think about.  The members of
this list probably do, too - primarily about the best way to
offer our guidance, without sounding like bitchy, petulant little
children who are going to throw temper tantrums if we don't get
our way.  I believe that, for the most part, our  reactions and
opinions - on the big issues - _is_ ultimately in the best
interests of Traveller, as a game.  But I also admit that I may
be biased.  I think that _we_, the customers, need to think long
and hard about whether something is good _for_ _the_game_, before
we go off on IG about a decision.  And when we _do_ go off, we
shouldn't _emote_ about it; we should marshall our reasons in
logic, and present our arguments coherently and calmly, without
making threats of abandonment, and without being pejorative or
using invective.

I think I've said my piece here.  But I will add that I invite
considered discussion on any and all points that I have made
here.  Also, in spite of the fact that Marc and IG aren't
expected to tell us of the results of their respective
introspection, I would encourage them both to participate in this
discussion, and, _if_and_only_if_ they feel comfortable doing so,
to tell us of the results of their introspection, and the reasons
that they came to the conclusions they did.  I believe that at
this point in time, a frank and open dialogue, while perhaps not
_necessary_, will be more productive than further recrimination
and other ranting.  I hope the rest of the list is in agreement
with me.

Permission is explicitly granted to repost this in other
Traveller-related forums, to encourage and extend the discussion
I have invited.  If you do, please let me know that you have, and
where, and remember to include proper credit.


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Jeff Zeitlin                                      =
jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 15:45:33 -0000
From: Jason Davies <obiwan@thenet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Overblown angst

On 18-May-97, Glenn Grant wrote:

T>Now I understand that recently IG have moved the offending personnel to
T>other positions, and hired new editors and new writers, including Mark
T>Miller himself, a new layout designer, new illustrators, and (presumably)
T>playtesters; they've delayed books to ensure they are properly edited and
T>tested, rather than rushing inferior products to the market. They've even
T>dropped their prices - albeit not as much as we would like, but they're
T>obviously trying. And in response to our calls for error-correction,
T>they're completely re-writing Book 1, and reworking other books - with
T>newly added material so that, even though you have to buy the book again,
T>you're at least getting something extra with the new edition.

T>But do they get any credit for any of this? We should be shouting, "This
is
T>good! This is what we want! This is what we asked for! Sure, we'd have
T>liked it to be done right the FIRST time, but it's nice to see them
T>learning from their mistakes." But no. Instead of this, I'm hearing more
T>complaints!

When EA was released they did receive credit, we all thought the bad
decisions were in the past, unfortunately IG seem to be have taken a step
backwards with this FS fudge.  Yes we asked for a corrected T4 rulebook and
mostly thats what we're going to get, but when it came to FS we asked for
corrected data (not fudged data) and for this information to be put up on
the errata web pages.  IG have obviously ruled this out.  

T>issue. WHY DO YOU THINK THEY WANT TO KEEP THE SYSTEM DATA FROM FS? Why
T>don't they just do a second edition with new data? Answer: So that people
T>who already own the book won't feel they've shelled out for something
T>that's already obsolete - obviously! Duh.

It's the people that have already bought the book who are calling for the
correct data to be published (whether on the the web, JTAS or printed),
double-duh.  If the correct data is available for download then it costs
nothing to distribute, it cost virtually nothing to the customer to
download.  Previous customers of FS will then have the correct LL data that
can be used with their 1st edition.  Future purchasers get the correct data.

T>Something else you guys have completely ignored: yes, Joe Walsh said that
T>the Law Levels will be left as they are, but he also said that the new
T>version of FS will include a* Law Level UWP extension* - which I take to
T>mean that the error *is* being fixed - but fixed in a way that doesn't
T>completely invalidate the books many fans have already bought. Is their
T>concern for this issue appreciated? Apparently not.

It's not a fix, it's a fudge.  If the Law Level data is made available to
previous purchasers it wont invalidate the rest of their book (just the
broken law level bit).  It might well be inconvienient to lookup a UWP in FS
and then search through a list to find the correct LL, but thats more
preferable to shelling out more cash for a patch.

T>Sure, it's a kludge. Sure, it would've been easier on everyone if FS had
T>not been edited by incompetents. But in terms of damage control, I think
T>what IG is doing is not unreasonable. Joe's explanation of the Law Level
T>bug (the idea that, during the First Survey, Law Level had not yet been
T>introduced to the UWP) is not completely senseless. Why should everything
T>in M:0 be exactly the same as during the Fifth Frontier War?

Your right it is a kludge, it is IG papering over the cracks, it is IG
inventing canon (LL does not exist in M0) because of a screw up.  Why is
there a correct Law level for Sylea and not for other worlds of the Sylean
federation with which Sylea has been trading and interacting with for many
years?, why is there a correct law level for Azimuth/Core (0202)?.  Law
level is an integral and important part of the UWP.  Was there a law level
digit during the first and second imperiums?, did Sylean Fed. planetary
scientists forget the knowledge to calculate LL during the long night?.

Isn't Anomolies also a product of a T4 core subsector map screw up?

T>Yes, the Gov=LL bug was an unbelievable screw-up and the book should never
T>have been sent to press, let alone sent out to the stores, with such an
T>obvious error. But now that it's too late, why are you dumping all over IG
T>for trying to come up with a solution that doesn't make things worse?

It doesn't make things better either.  IG is taking the easier way out,
appending instead of correcting.

T> Sure,
T>you'd like them to replace your books for free? Obviously they would if
T>they could. But I rather wonder if that's economically feasible. Sounds to
T>me like a quick route to bankruptcy. 

Of course it's not economically feasible and so far I haven't seen anyone
seriously suggesting they do that.

T>(And don't tell me what the Star Wars
T>publishers would do in this situation! This is irrelevant! IG don't have
T>Lucasfilm behind them!)

It's not irrelevant, it's an example.  WEG don't have LucasFilm behind them
and they don't have LucasFilm's bucks either. As far as I know it's a one
way relationship: WEG give money to LucasFilm for the license and the
privilage to publish SW.  LucasFilm aren't there to bail them out if they
screw up.

Like I've mentioned above, distributing the Law Level data in a downloadable
format will cost IG peanuts.  For those without internet access the correct
data can be published in JTAS (maybe with a note to say that the data can be
freely photocopied and so ensuring that the data will be distributed to all
those who require it).  IG could also send the data to those who send them
an SAE.

This is what WEG did for the SW rules upgrade, something they didn't have to
do as the original 2nd edition rules were playable anyway.  Those who wanted
the upgrade got it, and there were few complaints. 

I'm not asking for all UWP data to be made available just world name,
Location, and Law Level (and maybe pop. for Vland).  This wont effect the
future sales of M0 Campaign as the requested data on it's own is useless
without the rest of the UWP from FS.

The result: those FS purchasers get the LL data they requested (and will
feel that IG has done the right thing), and future purchasers of M0 Campaign
get the correct LL data but wont be any the wiser.

T>Can we maybe tone down the angst a bit, at least until the new books
T>appear? Can we at least wait and see what these new books really look like
T>before we start shooting them full of buckshot? Voice any concerns you
T>have, certainly. Argue for changes before it's too late - good. But let's
T>not slag IG for trying to *do what we've asked them to do.*

For T4Deluxe they have done mostly what we've asked.  For FS we asked for
correct LL data, not a fudge, not a work around, not a patch up, just the
correct LL made freely distributable.  It's not an unreasonable request. 
This is not what we're getting.

Jason (off to express his opinions to IG)
- -- 
######################################################################
Jason Davies (obiwan@thenet.co.uk)   Amiga 1200, 060 50 MHz, 540 Mb HD
http://www.thenet.co.uk/~obiwan/      CD-ROMx2, Zip Drive, SupraFax288
######################################################################
"Remember, the Amiga will be with you.. always" - Obi-Wan, Jedi Knight

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 10:41:37 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: The Right Way to Fix it

> Mostly, while we are justified in feeling that IG is trying to ask us to
> forget that it took our money for a fundamentally flawed product, we are
> not justified by the comparisons with rape or theft or stupidity.

I think that you are wrong here.  Given IG's track record, people are 
getting pissed.  They are tired of expensive, substandard product and 
idiotic decisions like, "Well, we know it is broken, but let's go 
ahead and reprint the crap anyway."

Sometimes yelling at someone IS the best way to get their attention, 
but what I think what you are seeing is a number of people just 
getting fed up.  These people are tired of being let down.

Feelings of betrayal and disappointment are sometimes strong 
justifications for what people say and do.

 IG
> prints products for our beloved game.  Let's use the carrot as well as the
> stick.  Rather than call them names, let's show them that good customer
> relations NOW means continued sales FOR THE FUTURE.

OTOH, I guess both you and I were thinking in the same direction last 
night.  I'm trying to take a more constructive tact as well--notice 
the "IG Positive Thread" and "T4-Revised" posts.

I'm holding my head up for IG one more time.  Hell, I want IG to 
succeed.    

But, I'm banking on stretched faith here.  I sure hope IG is 
listening, because as a determined fan, I am, with effort, turning my 
comments in a more constructive approach.

I'll try it your way--one more time.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 10:41:38 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Need help, please

> 1)	One of my players received "Traveller's Aid Society" as a mustering-out
> benefit from the Navy.  He wonders why he should ever work, since he can
> sell a high passage every two months, giving him an excellent income.

You can sell the High Passages for 90% of their face value.  Cr9,000 
is not an excellent income.  There are plenty of things that he is 
going to have to buy.

Among other things that pop up in the game (buying weapons, ammo, 
armor, replacing equipment, miscellaneous costs like food and 
lodging, licenses, etc.), I use a general method designed to simulate 
general purchasing.

A character will, like all of us in real life, spend money on all 
types of crap--toothpaste, entertainment, clothes, souveniers, etc.  
Money evaporates from a character's pocket just like it does for real 
people.

Ever ballanced your check book a week after you've been paid and 
wonder where the hell did all the money go?  Taking you friend out to 
lunch, buying those new sneakers, and getting that new CD adds up.

MT has an excellent rule for this.  Check out page 30 of the MT 
Player's Manual.  There, it says that a character will spend Cr250 x 
Soc per month on incidentals.  Ordinary purchases, like buying 
equipment or obtaining a High Passage does not count towards this 
total.

In my game, I allow for the time the characters are on the ship.  
Since they are in space during this time, they have no where to go 
for their money to evaporate.

I keep track of time using the Imperial Calander (My copy is from the 
MT Referee's Companion, but you can find it in a number of other 
supplements including T4's Starships).  

On this chart, I record all sorts of things for the 
campaign--birthdays, ship subsidy payments, the Emperor's Birthday 
(holiday), etc.  I check off the days as they are played in the game.
I'll put either an "H" in the day's box if the character's were in 
jumpspace during that day or a "S" if the character's were on the 
ship but in normal space.

Then peridodically (every four weeks), I count the number of days 
played that the character's were not on the ship.  I ask each 
player what his average incidental monthly expenditure is (Cr250 x 
Soc is recorded in the notes section of the character's sheet--if you 
need a character sheet, I'll let you have a copy of the one I 
designed).  I figure a per day charge for each character, and I only 
charge the characters for the time spent off the ship.

In this manner, money evaporates as fast from their pockets as it 
does mine.

> 2)	The same character was hired to perform a job on a world some 20 jumps
> distant from his starting point.  He purchased passage on a free trader
> going in the right direction, but brought along several dozen small Tech-11
> computers which he sold for profit on mid-tech worlds, reaping an excellent
> profit which not only paid his way but afforded him a Cr50,000 profit.
> What am I doing wrong?

If you want to decrease the character's disposable income, you are 
probably not charging him enough for things.

As I said above, Traveller character's sometimes benefit because we 
don't charge them for anything except major purchases--equipment and 
so forth.  I wish real life was like this.  What is missing is the 
incidental charges.  We don't have to play out every little purchase 
of chewing gum, sunglasses, shampoo, and underware.  That's what I 
use the MT rule for that I detailed above.

Let's see.  That's 20 jumps, right?  Since a ship usually spends one 
week in port and one in jumpspace, as a general rule, the character 
spent 40 weeks travelling.  That's three quarters of a year.

If the character's Soc was 7, he'd spend Cr1,750 per month on 
incidentals.  Just charging this character for the 20 weeks he spent 
planetside during this trip, I would charge the character Cr8,750 for 
his incidentals.  Now, he's got Cr41,250 instead of his original 
Cr50,000.

> 3)	This one may be unanswerable.  Traveller has turned my players into gun
> nuts.  I've purposfully  allowed very few situations to arise where
> firepower is useful, but they're constantly looking for them and dreaming
> of ways to knock off low-tech governments.  It's getting old and infantile
> fast.  Any suggestions?

Sure.  Put them in situations that they can't handle.

If they knocked off a whole government, I'd find it kinda hard to 
believe that this could be done that easily.  Let's say you've got 
five PC's with Battle Dress and PGMP's.  They are on a TL 5 world.

They'd reak some havoc, at first, but eventually, they would be 
outnumbered--I don't care how powerful the five are.

These TL 5 bubbas would eventually find a way to stop the 5 Battle 
Dress killers--maybe they'd swarm 'em, and tie them down with a net 
or something.

Is there a Naval base on the planet?  If so, you job just got easier.

But, let's say that the five did come in and tear up the government 
buildings and killed several people--then they left planet without 
being stopped.

That planet is a memeber of the Imperium.  They are going to complain 
to the higher authorities, and in this case, these higher authorities 
is the Imperial government.  Before long, the Imperial Navy is 
looking for a ship that matches the player's.  They've got the 
transponder code from the starport.  Word is sent by XBoat to all 
worlds in the subsector to detain these individuals on sight.

They've got to have their Universal IDs checked when they land at a 
starport, right?  Otherwise, they are detained anyway.

Pretty soon, the character's are going to be caught.  Maybe they'll 
be apprehended in a starport, or maybe an Imperial Navy Destroyer 
will pick them up.  At that time, let them decide if they want to 
fight it out or not.

What you should do next time the players start acting like this is 
think to yourself what would happen in real life.  Say a group of 
merchant seamen land at an African port, pull their high tech machine 
guns that they got from when they were in the States, and start 
blowing people away.  What would happen?

You might also want to start having fun with this instead of letting 
it get to you and ruin the enjoyment of the game.  You're the GM--be 
creative.

If this happened in my game, I'd work it into the story.  If they 
blew away some people on a low tech planet, I might decide that one 
of the government officials that they killed was a member of a 
powerful noble house.  The poor chap was sent to that rock to earn 
pay his dues before daddy, the baron, put him in a position of more 
importance.

Then, the PCs have come along and blown him away.  Word gets back to 
daddy, who informs the correct authorities, but also decides on a 
course of action himself.

Before long, the player's not only have to deal with the Imperial 
Navy, but the baron's hired guns as well.  Maybe they are bounty 
hunters, or maybe they are just plain hit men--whatever the case, the 
players better hope that the Navy catches up with them first.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1337
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Sunday, May 18 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1338



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Interstellar TLs
Re: ANCIENT Grandfather
Re: Need help Please
Re: Beyond the Pale
Re: Overblown angst
Re: Need help Please
Rape??
Re: [T97#1332] {VERY LONG} MM, IG, Traveller, and We (was: Abuse
Re: Need help, please
Re: The IG Positive Thread
Re: T4-Revised
Re: S/F Role playing games
Re: Need help, please
Re: Ship economics -- fuel comsumption
Re: Ship economics -- fuel consumption
RE: Rape??
Relativistic manuever drives

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 16:02:19 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Interstellar TLs

Talking over the problem of the higher-than-TL-12 2nd Imperium artifacts
mentioned in CSC and EA on gdw-beta, I got an idea about how to explain it
away. I therefor propose that we define TLs in the following way:

The TL of a planet is the level of technology used by a significant majority
of the planetary population.

The TL of an interstellar nation is the level of their jump drive technology.

Thus the statement that 'the 2nd Empire never exceeded TL 12' means that
they never invented jump-4, but says nothing about their other technological
achievements.

This does mean that the Sylean Federation built their first jump-3 ships 150
years before Year 0, but that dosen't mean they built very many of them.

What do you think?



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 15:56:08 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: ANCIENT Grandfather

Anders Backman writes:
>There are coyns portraying all six major races but none other and the coyns
>were introduced well before any of the six invented j-drive but Droyne.

Well, the first 'modern' coyn set (as opposed to the one(s?) used in the 
heyday of the Ancients) was introduced by Yaskodray ca. 50,000 years ago,
and that one didn't have Aslan, Hiver, or K'Kree coyns. According to _Secret
of the Ancients_ p. 32 he '...continued to refine these coyns [...]; over
time, they came to show various races (Aslan, Hiver, K'Kree) which did not
even exist when Droyne ranged the stars.'

So the coyn sets of Mileau 1100 Droyne societies is propably no more than
2000 years old or thereabouts.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 12:28:46 -0700
From: Shade <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: Need help Please

>1)      One of my players received "Traveller's Aid Society" as a 
>mustering-out
>benefit from the Navy.  He wonders why he should ever work, since he can
>sell a high passage every two months, giving him an excellent income.

Remind him, by having the TAS and local cops look into it, that these 
things are useful for that person only and in effect, he is scalping.


>2)      The same character was hired to perform a job on a world some 20 
>jumps
>distant from his starting point.  He purchased passage on a free trader
>going in the right direction, but brought along several dozen small 
>Tech-11
>computers which he sold for profit on mid-tech worlds, reaping an 
>excellent
>profit which not only paid his way but afforded him a Cr50,000 profit.
>What am I doing wrong?

Well, letting him get away with it.  This journey should be made all the 
more difficult by all the different fines, tarriffs, taxes, pirates, 
inspections, customs, etc that you can dream up and put into your game 
with out losing the consistency :) 

>3)      This one may be unanswerable.  Traveller has turned my players 
>into gun
>nuts.  I've purposfully  allowed very few situations to arise where
>firepower is useful, but they're constantly looking for them and 
>dreaming
>of ways to knock off low-tech governments.  It's getting old and 
>infantile
>fast.  Any suggestions?

This one is the easiest.  Let them knock off a few lo-tech governments 
and let the Imperial Marines deal with them.  This is not something the 
Imperium ( of any Milieu ) views lightly if the world is an Imperial 
world.

Another beauty is to show them how dangerous a lower tach can be.  I had 
to take someone out once with a TL-5 fighter and a 1000 lb bomb once.  It 
will humble the rest of the players a bit.  Do you know what a tank does 
to battle dress when it runs over it?  Makes this nice satisfying crunchy 
sound not unlike that of a lobster in the crackers :)

I'm sure there are less violent options, but these should help you ( and 
I'm in one hell of a mood today ).

John 
- -- 
"Disco still sucks!!!"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 10:52:07 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beyond the Pale

On Sat, 17 May 1997, Richard Hough wrote:

> On this topic, I have been running a campaign for a few months, and was
> considering posting excerpts or news releases to the TML. Is there any
> interest in this? I can't match Roderick's prose, but I was making TAS-like
> news releases for my players and could post them to the TML

Go right ahead, there are lots of GM's out there who love to steal ...err.
'get inspired by' other's work. 

'Gearhead-only' arguing aside, that IS one of the chartered reasons for
this list's existence, to share information and ideas, and TAS-reports
would ceratinly be useful, if only as red-herrings. 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 10:46:29 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Overblown angst

Glenn has many good points to make, many good points to make.

I think that a lot of the heat that IG is taking right now is due to
pent-up frustration, and what many people see as disregard for the
pocketbooks of the early adopters, like us.

As you say in your message, WE are the ones who rushed out and bought
everything, WE are the ones who roundly criticized those things that were
broken, WE are the ones (in part) who made IG realize their mistakes, and
make their current attempt to fix things.

You're right, to a large extent IG did listen to what we had to say; the
future of Traveller may well be better off for all this, with properly
edited and proofread books, better reality checking at all points in the
process, new writers and better editorial control by Marc himself.

For all that, I don't think that a couple of printed pages with corrected
law levels for the systems detailed in FS and M0, or an errata sheet
detailing this mysterious Law level fix is out of line, too expensive, or
threatening to their bottom line for IG to distribute. Hell, they could
put it up on their web site as a PDF file which would cost essentially
NOTHING to distribute. 

People aren't complaining that IG is doing this, hell, people aren't even
complaining about being beta-testers.  What people are
complaining about is being _paying_ beta testers, customers who will have 
to pay _double_ because of what they pointed out to IG. I've said it
before...many of the people buying Traveller right now, like much of this
list (I can't speak for the many lurkers out there) liking IG or T4 or not
at this point, are the very audience that IG can't afford to lose, we're
the evangelists, the ones who bug the shop owners to carry stuff, the ones
who bug the shop owners for space to hold games.

Such loyalty is hard to come by, and a valuable resource; I hope IG
realizes that this is too valuable to squander by not printing some usable
errata for FS and M0. Starships, I think everyone has given up on, T4
errata are out there, and everyone likes CSC and EA, so far, other than
_another_ incompatible design system. (the latter, IMHO is ok...I can draw
a fairly easily defined line between a vehicle and a spaceship, and work
around it...ymmv)

Hell, even printing the 32 'missing' pages for M0 owners out there
couldn't be all that expensive, charge me $3 or $5 for it...I won't feel
cheated by paying reasonable production costs for it (unless it's like the
legendary missing 15 minutes of '2001'...which was mostly Keir Dullea's
heavy breathing ;-) 

What I WILL feel cheated by is having to shell out another $25 to
duplicate something I have already just to get that damned errata sheet!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 11:27:47 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Need help Please

On Sun, 18 May 1997, Shade wrote:

> >1)      One of my players received "Traveller's Aid Society" as a 
> >mustering-out
> >benefit from the Navy.  He wonders why he should ever work, since he can
> >sell a high passage every two months, giving him an excellent income.
> 
> Remind him, by having the TAS and local cops look into it, that these 
> things are useful for that person only and in effect, he is scalping.
> 

Unfortunately, all the references I have to TAS membership state that the
member may sell their high passage or use it as they see fit.

For example:

So sayeth Book 1, Page 22, Verse the sixth

"...And they feasted on breakfast ceral, and spam, and sloth, and..

Ooops wrong book...

CT LBB1 "Characters and Combat", pg 22 paragraph 6:

"Every month it [TAS] pays a dividend in the form of one High Passage
ticket to each member. This passage may be taken, used, accumulated, sold,
or otherwise disposed of." 

	What bothers me, is that SOMEwhere, I read a description of the
Traveller's Aid Society, that mentioned it was only the latest of a number
of such organizations, the previous one's had 'blackballed' themselves to
death. The reference I remember was fairly clear that TAS dated from the
early 00's of the Imperium...maybe 400 or 500.

This would invalidate anyone getting TAS as a benefit in M0

What am I remembering?

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 14:46:06 -0400
From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Subject: Rape??

        If I were a woman, I'd be so highly offended at the comparison
between being dissatidfied with IG's products to being raped, I would
unsubscribe on the spot. This shows an appalling lack of sensitivity to an
issue far more important than any roleplaying game. I honestly feel an
apology is in order here.

Allen Shock

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 14:12:46 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: [T97#1332] {VERY LONG} MM, IG, Traveller, and We (was: Abuse

> From:          jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)

> <<Ken to the list>>
> 
> >I can't believe how much I agree with Paul's post.  It touches on
> >every emotion I've had with regard to T4.
> 
> >I wish I would have written it.


I said this about Paul's post--now, I'm saying it again, about Jeff's 
post.

Where Paul captured all of the emotion that I've been feeling about 
IG, Jeff has captured all the thoughts in the left side of my brain.

I agree 1000% with what Jeff has said.  I was going to copy pieces of 
it to comment on, but on my first try to a repy, I found that I was 
quoteing the entire post.  

Suffice it to say that Jeff has covered it all and written his words 
well.  IG would do well to take heed of what he has said.

Again, I wish I would have written it.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 15:14:10 -0400
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: Need help, please

>MT has an excellent rule for this.  Check out page 30 of the MT 
>Player's Manual.  There, it says that a character will spend Cr250 x 
>Soc per month on incidentals.  Ordinary purchases, like buying 
>equipment or obtaining a High Passage does not count towards this 
>total.

Interesting.  Thanks.  I'll try this.

>--if you 
>need a character sheet, I'll let you have a copy of the one I 
>designed). 

Yes, please.  I'd like to see it. 

>> 3)	This one may be unanswerable.  Traveller has turned my players into gun
>> nuts.  I've purposfully  allowed very few situations to arise where
>> firepower is useful, but they're constantly looking for them and dreaming
>> of ways to knock off low-tech governments.  It's getting old and infantile
>> fast.  Any suggestions?
>
>Sure.  Put them in situations that they can't handle.
>
>If they knocked off a whole government, I'd find it kinda hard to 
>believe that this could be done that easily. 

No, I'm not -that- bad a GM.  I can show them what a bad idea that would
be.  They haven't tried, but that's mostly because they know, out of
character, that I'd hate it.  These guys are constantly dreaming of ways to
use Tech to kill things, which just seems infantile to me.

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 15:24:32 -0400
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: The IG Positive Thread

>Let's start a new thread--a thread designed to show IG exactly what 
>we have liked in Traveller products in the past.
>
>Pick anything you like about Traveller, from any edition, from any 
>company--rules, complete supplements, art, deck plans, history, 
>whatever--and state what you like about it and why.

Good idea.  Here's mine:

I have always loved the Traveller setting.  I think that the Imperium has a
great history, and a setting that abounds with enough enemies and obstacles
and just plain stuff.  Therefore, I have always liked the setting-related
materials best.  I like M:0.  I liked TNE a lot, especially where it talked
about setting.  I look forward to The Long Way Home.

Since I -never- want to have to design a ship or anything else, I get a
great deal of use out of Emperor's Arsenal and Central Supply Catalog, even
Starships, though I do wish for the good feeling I get when I hear the
gearheads say that something is well designed.

So, IG, for my dollars, Traveller books should have as much campaign detail
as possible, and maps are always good.  When you make technical manuals,
please continue to use the style and layout you used in EA, which I like a
- -lot-.

And please, keep on making Traveller!

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 15:32:18 -0400
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: T4-Revised

>Why don't we, here on the list, define exactly for IG the things in 
>Book 1 that we would like to see changed before T4-Revised comes out?

Also a good idea. 

First, I'd like to echo Ken's comments on the Character Generation and
Experience systems.  Too generous.  Please make skills harder to acquire,
especially at higher levels.

Second, my own suggestions:

1)	Maps.  A map of  Known Space really should be included.  It could even
include the boundaries of various milieux.

2)	All the charts should be gathered together in the back of the book for
quick reference.

3)	Examples of ground combat and ship-to-ship combat would be useful.

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 20:02:30 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: S/F Role playing games

At 12:47 PM 5/18/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Hi: 
>
>Unlike alot of players on the list, I do not use the Imerium for my 
>Universe but rather just use the rule set from classic and
>megatraveller. Since the quality of output from IG has been unstable 
>as of late I have since considered converting my Universe to a new 
>rule set, perhaps GURPS. 
>
>Does anyone else have any other suggestions? 
>
>Matthew Harelick 
>
>
>-- 
>Matthew Harelick  matth@homer.njit.edu	http://hertz.njit.edu/~msh9848
>Real-Time Computing Lab		       http://rtlab12.njit.edu/welcome.html
>New Jersey Institute of Technology     http://www.njit.edu
>
>
If you are using the rules and not the setting; why change? What do you need
to add to the rules? Exclude the Imperium setting, and CT or selected
subsets of MT or TNE provide all you might need.

Garry

 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 20:17:12 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Need help, please

At 08:04 AM 5/18/97 +0000, Scott Nolan wrote:
><snip>
>
>3)	This one may be unanswerable.  Traveller has turned my players into gun
>nuts.  I've purposfully  allowed very few situations to arise where
>firepower is useful, but they're constantly looking for them and dreaming
>of ways to knock off low-tech governments.  It's getting old and infantile
>fast.  Any suggestions?
>
>Scott
>
>
>

As I have noted before, the consequences of their own actions can cause
players more problems that anything a GM could dream up.

Gun nuts?  Sting 'em with an undercover operation by law enforcement to
catch people buying illegal fire arms. Check out the rules on firearms and
law levels of on any world. Same for Government codes. The more restrictive
the type of government, the more likely the PC gun nuts will wonder into an
illeagl weapons deal and a sting. You don't have to kill 'em, but a couple
years at hard labor will be a pause to think.

Over throw low tech governments. Just because you declare yourself the boss
doesn't mean you are listened to. Low tech, but popular rulers will stage an
insurrection. Kill the rulers and you make martyrs.  And there is also the
group of NPCs that decide to follow the PCs' lead. Since the PCs are now the
unpopular heads of an illegal government, the equally well equiped NPCs
could be hired, on a Mercenary Ticket, to remove them. 

There is no free lunch. Anything that a hyperactive PC can dream of doing to
an NPC and be done to the PC by an NPC.

Garry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 21:35:47 +0100
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Ship economics -- fuel comsumption

At 00:05 18/05/97 +0000, Kenneth Bearden wrote:
>> At 14:16 16/05/97 +0000, Bruce Lewis wrote:
>> >> 	Also, what happens to the energy stored in the crystals after 2 or 3
>
>> 	So how would the energy get discharged if it wasn't used for a jump? Does
>> one roll on engineering skill to discharge the jump capacitors without
>> damaging the engine room, or deck, or ship, or killing the crew, or other
>> interesting etceteras?
>
>I dunno.  The book doesn't specify.  I guess the GM could have fun 
>with it.
>
	Ah, yes, this could be interesting.

	"The jump capacitors needs to be discharged. Roll difficult against
engineering skill to bleed the jump energy into space."

	Any success - jump fuel succesfully bled off into space.
	Small failure - capacitors overload, all enginerring crew suffer
from...what? Roll 3d damage (or something else nasty)
	Medium Failure - jump drive rendered inoperative, fuel leakage, all
enginerring crew killed.
	Bad failure - entire engineering deck destroyed, ship cannot maneuvre.
	Catastrophic failure - ship destroyed.

	Of course, one can knock up variants of this, but would this be the sort
of thing one could use?

	See ya...


Bruce E J Lewis - mailto:bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk
Telephone - 0956-506527

	From Barkingside, within the London home county of Essex, E N G L A N D

Spurs Ticket Info can be found at - http://web.ftech.net/~legend/fixtures.htm

	Tottenham Hotspur - "Everybody will be singing..."
	Paxton Road Stand - Block R, Row 14, Seat 58

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 21:35:45 +0100
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Ship economics -- fuel consumption

At 15:09 17/05/97 +0200, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>"JUMP GOVERNOR: It is possible to procure a jump governor for ships
>produced according to Book 2. It allows such a ship to utilize fuel more
>efficiently; instead of consuming all fuel when performing a jump, 
>regardless of jump number, the ship will consume fuel equal to 0.1MJn,
>where Jn is the actual jump number used, rather than the maximum jump
>number available. Available at any industrial world with tech level 10
>or higher. Cost: Cr300 000. Mass: 1 ton. Ships produced according to
>this book already have the jump governor as part of their drives."
>[High Guard, p. 32].
> 
	Maybe I've missed something, as I've only been back a while, so please
excuse any ignorance on my part if the basis of this posting is incorrect.

	Unless you have some form of jump governor, you can't stop a j-drive from
using all the available fuel whether a ship does a jump-1 or jump-2
maneuver, right? Meaning that if you have an amount of fuel that's enough
for a jump-2, it may all be used up in a jump-1.

	Possible fix: Sorry if it's been mentioned before, but why not put the
jump fuel into separate fuel tanks? They can be rigged up with fuel lines
that can be interchanged for a jump-1 or 2 or whatever, or the multiple
fuel holds could be situated next to each other with a retractable
partition so that it becomes a say jump-2 fuel hold instead of two 1's, if
all the fuel must be in one compartment that is. Whad'ya reckon, possible?

	See ya...


Bruce E J Lewis - mailto:bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk
Telephone - 0956-506527

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 16:45:55 -0400
From: maverick@castlegate.net (Steve Brengard)
Subject: RE: Rape??

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC63AB.1D1E1740
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

rape (r=E2p) noun
1.	The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially =
sexual intercourse.
2. The act of seizing and carrying off by force; abduction.
3. Abusive or improper treatment; violation: a rape of justice.1

As you can see there are several definitions for the word 'rape'. While =
I can not condone Paul's use of the term as he did (referring to the =
battered wife syndrome and the sexual abuse relations), I can see using =
the term under definition three. While I will continue to support T4, I =
do believe that IG is using improper treatment towards its customers. We =
all shelled out hard earned monies for a product that simply was NOT up =
to snuff. And now, instead of doing the right thing and producing a =
corrected version of the books for customers at no cost or even reduced =
cost, they now expect you to shell out even more money so that you can =
have the books that contained the 'fixed' version of the system.

Why doesn't IG do as I suggested months ago, put updated and corrected =
versions of the products available for download in PDF format for $10.00 =
a piece (5.00 for registered customers), until the next printing. While =
this is not an exceptable solution for everyone, if should curve the =
need for IG's blood.=20


Steven E. Brengard
maverick@castlegate.net


- -----Original Message-----
From:	Susan M. Shock [SMTP:34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu]
Sent:	Sunday, May 18, 1997 2:46 PM
To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject:	Rape??

        If I were a woman, I'd be so highly offended at the comparison
between being dissatidfied with IG's products to being raped, I would
unsubscribe on the spot. This shows an appalling lack of sensitivity to =
an
issue far more important than any roleplaying game. I honestly feel an
apology is in order here.

Allen Shock

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 17:36:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Relativistic manuever drives

   Hi.

> Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 12:32:49 -0700
> From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>

> Do you happen to have the relativistic form of the
> v=at equation handy?  (I've been meaning to work it
> out and it would save me some time.)

   Yep, I do. The relativistic equation equivalent to v = at
   is 

   	v = c * sin( arctan(at/c) ),

   which assumes constant acceleration, no flips at midpoint, etc.

> Also, I take it you are assuming that accel. reamains
> constant as the ship takes on relativistic mass (instead
> of the force of thrust?)

   I am not sure what you mean here, but let me tell you what I meant,
   since I neglected to specify in my previous post.  I assume constant
   acceleration A to be the G-forces that the crew would experience if
   their inertial compensators broke down: ie, the ship's thrust divided
   by its rest mass.  This definition of A is invariant regardless of
   reference frame; it's the acceleration the ship /would have in a
   frame where the ship is not moving relativistically/.  In other
   words, it's the plain, old, what-you're-used-to, Traveller,
   manuever-drive rating.

   As seen from a planet, the ship is accelerating rather more "slowly"
   than the crew experiences it. To find the acceleration, A', in the
   planetary frame:

   	A' = A * tau^3  (for acceleration along the direction of motion)

   where tau = cos(arcsin(v/c)) = 1/gamma.

   Here's a brief recap of my previous post, included for easy
   reference:

   ------------------------------------------------------
   Conventions:

   All distances in meters, times in seconds, acceleration in meters per
   second squared (where 1G = 10 m/s^2, 2G = 20 m/s^2, and so on). All
   equations assume that the ship starts from rest at the origin,
   accelerates to midpoint and then decelerates to rest at the
   destination.

   D = distance in meters
   A = acceleration in m/s^2, as experienced by the starship's crew
   t = dialated time as experienced by the starship's crew
   T = undialated time as experienced by the planetary populations
   c = speed of light: 300,000,000 meters per second

   D = (c^2/A) * (  sqrt(4+(A*T/c)^2) - 2  )
   T = (c/A) * sqrt( (A*D/c^2)*(A*D/c^2 + 4) )

   D = (1/4) * A * t^2
   t = sqrt(4*D/A)
   A = 4*D / t^2

   -Rob

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1338
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Sunday, May 18 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1339



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: T4-Revised
Forces of the Imperium
Re: Polyhedra/5th Element
FS fix is the right thing to do
Craig and I rant about hard science
Re: ANCIENT Grandfather
Re: Solomani Core Expeditions...
Arcane gone?
Let's calm down..
Re: Beyond the Pale
(off topic) Seeking Michael Bailey
RE: Rape??
RE: 1G accel?
T4-Revised: CharGen
Re: Need help, please

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 16:51:53 -0400
From: maverick@castlegate.net (Steve Brengard)
Subject: RE: T4-Revised

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC63B1.8AB35120
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I personally loved the MT character generation system. Lots of detail, =
and nothing is guaranteed. Every year requires a roll for a skill. And =
even though there are ways to get lots of skills, it was/is rare and =
still requires a dice roll. Bring it back. =20

Steven E. Brengard
maverick@castlegate.net


- -----Original Message-----
From:	Scott Nolan [SMTP:nolan@pop.erols.com]
Sent:	Sunday, May 18, 1997 3:32 PM
To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject:	Re: T4-Revised

>Why don't we, here on the list, define exactly for IG the things in=20
>Book 1 that we would like to see changed before T4-Revised comes out?

Also a good idea.=20

First, I'd like to echo Ken's comments on the Character Generation and
Experience systems.  Too generous.  Please make skills harder to =
acquire,
especially at higher levels.

Second, my own suggestions:

1)	Maps.  A map of  Known Space really should be included.  It could =
even
include the boundaries of various milieux.

2)	All the charts should be gathered together in the back of the book =
for
quick reference.

3)	Examples of ground combat and ship-to-ship combat would be useful.

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 10:32:56 +1200
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: Forces of the Imperium

Forces of the Imperium.

The needs of a starspaning empire are many and varied.  This is an attempt to 
detail some of the forces that the Imperium would have.

This attempt is not going to detail any of the supporting bureaucracy and 
nobility except where those entities may affect the military forces.

General Overview
My overview is that the empire is made up of it's member states and these may 
vary from single planets to entire stellar groupings.  Each of these member 
states is responsible for it's own internal governance and contributes to the 
imperial purse by taxes and levies.

The Imperial Navy
The Imperium has one major force.  The Imperial Navy.  In time of war all 
Imperial Assets revert to control by the Imperial Navy.  In many cases this 
control is not used and the asset continues under normal operations, but the 
Imperial Navy retains the right to use any Imperial asset in time of war.
During peacetime the Imperial Navy is patrolling the space between worlds, 
providing transport for dignitaries, planning putative actions and generally 
keeping the peace.
Many organs of the Imperial Bureaucracy rely on the Imperial Navy for 
intelligence provided by the Department of Imperial Naval Intelligence and it 
is this department that provides for many of the imperiums covert agents both 
internal and external.
The Imperial Navy is organised into Fleets.  There are three classes of 
Imperial Navy fleets.  The Subsector Fleets, the Sector Fleets, and the Domain 
Fleets.  Planetary fleets are the responsibility of the individual member 
states.
(Please note that a Fleet is not the same as a fleet.  A Fleet is an 
administrative grouping and a fleet is a group of ships)
Subsector Fleets are subdivided into task forces and dipersed through the 
entire subsector.  A Subsector fleet task force can range in size from a single 
patrol cruiser up to a full fleet.  The Subsector Fleet Headquarters is 
generally located on the subsector capital but in any cases it will always be 
placed to best effect in terms of command and control.  Subsector Fleets are 
the first response force of the Imperium.
Sector Fleets are also subdivided into task forces but it is extremely rare for 
a Sector Fleet Task force to be less than a fleet.  The Sector Fleet 
Headquarters is often moved and generally put in ready reaction range of
any forseen troublespots.  Sector Fleets provide the main offensive forces of 
the Imperium and act as the hammer against the Subsector Fleets Anvil.
Domain Fleets are Headquartered at the Domains Naval Depot, or if it does not 
have one then at the Domain Capital.  Domain Fleets are the last line of 
defense for the Imperium and also include many of the extra support resources, 
such as Depot's, Courier Networks, additional Transport fleets etc?

The Imperial Marines
The Imperial Marines are designed to act as the Imperial Navy's Ground Attack 
unit.  They are supported and transported by the Imperial Navy.  They do not 
act without Imperial Navy consent.
During peacetime Imperial Marines are used as Imperial Embassy Guards, escorts 
for imperially favored Nobles and a ready reaction force.  A Marine regiment 
serves on a three year cycle which covers one year on board ship as ready 
reaction forces, one year in garrison and one year in shore duty assignments 
(such as embassy guards etc).
Imperial Marines are not used as ships troops.  This role is performed 
internally by Imperial Navy personnel.  Imperial Marines are carried onboard 
some ships but in an assault role only and generally have sufficient equipment 
to survive on a hostile world for up to three weeks in fighting trim.
The Imperial Marines are used for pinpoint strategic and tactical assaults. 
 They are rarely used as a bludgeon but are instead tasked with specific 
strikes to achieve an overall result.  As an example, Imperial Marines would be 
used to assault a planetary based meson screen emplacement that protects a city 
and then the Imperial Navy can use the city as a bargaining point.
Without the Imperial Marines the Imperial Navy would be able to reduce a planet 
to slag but couldn't really force it to terms but with Imperial Marines it can 
make very specific points.

The Imperial Army
There is no actual Imperial Army.  Except for some units based on the Emperor's 
personal holdings which are called the Imperial Guard no structure exists that 
could be called the Imperial Army.  Instead, there is a department of the 
Imperial Navy that coordinates activities involving tasks not suited to the 
Imperial Marines.  This department is known informally as the Imperial Army. 
  It calls up forces from the Member states of the Imperium and arranges for 
their transport to the task theatre.  It is the Member states responsibility to 
ensure that training is up to standard and to provide for the logistics needs 
of the called up units.
This department also arranges for training structures to be similar and 
promotes a degree of standardization across the Imperium to ensure member 
states are able to work and fight together.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 08:02:59 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Polyhedra/5th Element

Andrew Boulton wrote:

>In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.16.19970507053152.22e74fe4@bbs.logicnet.com>
>
><< >I haven't seen the movie yet, but does this by chance have anything
>to do
>>with "The Fifth Element"?
>
>Good question. I haven't seen it either. >>
>
>I think the 5th element is Life.


	I thought it was spam.  There certainly is enough of it out there..:)

R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 17:25:15 -0500
From: "K.C. Komosky" <themoof@autobahn.mb.ca>
Subject: FS fix is the right thing to do

	Okay, I'll make this brief. I have more campaign signs to put up 
shortly...

	Accepting the FS data as written is the only possible choice for IG.

	The only options as to fixing it were completely impracticable. Posting it 
on the 'Net leaves out far too many people, re-printing FS will just upset 
everyone who bought it in the first place, giving out full UPPs for every 
planet would bankrupt IG, and releasing just the new law levels is a 
nightmare I don't want to think about.

	No one is happy about the broken data in First Survey. And rest assured, 
the pop of Vland is much higher in my Third Imperium than written in FS.

	Perhaps people don't know how difficult it is to start a brand-new 
business these days. Imperium Games is not a wealthy company. So while I'm 
not telling other list members what to do, I will re-iterate that I will 
AUTOMATICALLY buy every single item IG puts out, and I will constantly urge 
Winnipeg gamers to start playing Traveller.

K.C. Komosky
themoof@autobahn.mb.ca

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 18:44:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Craig and I rant about hard science

   Hi.

> Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:39:31 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
 
> Or rather, using less emotionally loaded terms [magic], Traveller propusion
> systems use a small enough fraction of the total craft's mass that, as a
> simplifying assumption, this change of mass is neglected in calculating
> accelerations.  

   Sorry for the the use of the term magic, I hadn't really realised it
   was emotionally loaded.  (I'm a D&D player since WAAAY back; I like
   magic! 8^)

>>    The magic of Trav manuever drives, jump drives, and two-dimensional
>>    starmaps is an inherant part of Trav, and has been with the game
>>    since its first incarnation.  The obviousness of this fact makes me
>>    wonder where many people on this list have gotten the impression that
>>    Trav is "hard" science fiction.  A few possibilities occur to me:
 
> Two-dimensional starmaps are admittedly silly, but again, are
> plot/simplicity driven, and needn't be construed as reducing the
> 'hardness' of Traveller's SF.  What players want to know is how far apart
> (say) Regina and Rhylanor are, and what they'll find in between.  A
> three-dimensional map could answer the same question more 'realistically',
> but would also (with today's technology) be incredibly hard to use.
 
   Very true.  No way I'd ever switch to 3D starmaps (unless, of course,
   I was doing some real-life astrophysics).

> Traveller maneuver drives aren't all that magical, either.  HEPlaR barely
> strains my credulity -- I mean, yes, it's mind-bogglingly efficient, but
> fusing hydrogen and spouting it out the stern is pretty straightforward
> extrapolation.  

   Ahh, I wasn't specific enough in locating the part of the manuever
   drive that radiates magic; sorry!  The magical part of the manuever
   drive is the part that relates to the power plant.  Any HEPlaR drive
   that can push a million-kg type-S scout courier is going to give out
   scads of power.  How much?  Let's use the specific impulse you
   mention below: 700 km/s.  For a million-kg scout courier with 2G
   acceleration, a 700km/s HEPlar drive would yield 10^13 watts,
   10 million megawatts.  For a ship with a 500 MW power plant (CT),
   this is quite a power load (for CT, where manuever drives require
   power) or quite a windfall (for T4, where HEPlaR yields power). 
   There is a "play-balance" (as opposed to magical 8^) fudge factor in
   conservation of momentum and energy of about 20,000.  Not to worry,
   though!  With a little optimization, it's trivial to reduce this
   fudge factor to a mere 1000 or so.

   So "Hard Science Fiction (TM)" requires that our manuever drives be
   much slower (contra canon) or that power in Trav be much easier to
   come by than Striker, MT, and FFS state (contra canon), or that
   reaction fuel requirements be MUCH higher than any rules I've seen
   state (contra canon).  So we have to pick between "Hard Science
   Fiction (TM)" and canon.  No contest for me really. 8^)

> Jump drive is, frankly, pure magic...but do you reject any SF featuring
> FTL as 'soft'? 
 
   Yikes!  I certainly  do not "reject" it!  But I don't call it hard, either.

>>    2)  The techno-babble introduced in many late DGP and TNE products
>>    gave the illusion that some Trav manuever drives obey physical
>>    conservation laws.
 
> Actually, a lot of their technobabble annoyed me, as they blew a thing or
> two pretty badly, IMHO.  But I didn't mind seeing them make the effort.  I
> don't recall any of these products claiming to have solved the
> conservation problems, however.
 
   Oops, sorry if I implied that GDW or DGP ever called Traveller
   "hard".  Actually, I recall Marc Miller himself explicitly telling
   me that Traveller manuever drives don't obey physics; he made no
   apologies for that either.  Nor should he, IMHO.  But other people
   seem to be under the impression that it is hard.  This impression is
   erroneous, IMNSHO.

>>    Whatever the causes, I just felt the need to point out, in
>>    contradiction to what some have asserted on this list, that Traveller
>>    is not and never has been a "hard" science-fiction game.
 
> I know of damn few harder ones, and only one involving interstellar travel --
> 2300 AD.
 
   True enough.

   <snip>  <snip><snip><snip>   <snip>
     		  <snip>

>>    	v = S logn(1 + m/(M-m))
 
> Which simplifies to:
>         v = S ln(M/(M-m))
> which is equivalent to the form someone else posted.
 
   Yeah, I saw that... after I had already posted.  Sorry.

> S is not the specific impulse, but rather the exhaust velocity.  Isp is
> measured in seconds; a "Newton-second per kilogram" reduces to "meters per
> second."  (Newton = kg m/s2, * s = kg m/s, / kg = m/s)

   Hmmm. According to my textbook, S is called the specific impulse. 
   For non-relativistic rockets, like the one in my example, it is also
   the exhaust speed relative to the rocket, as you correctly point out.
  
>>    Not very impressive by Traveller standards.
 
> Yeah, but what do you expect for 3 km/s exhaust speeds?  Give the exhaust
> a velocity of 0.001 c (= 3e5 m/s) and the delta-v rises to 6.9e5 m/s, or a
> respectable 700 km/s = 2.5 million km/hr, or about 40 BL/BR hexes per
> half-hour turn...right in the ballpark of actual Traveller ship
> performance.
 
   Oh sure, I agree.  But look at the /power/ output you get from these
   things: a simple scout courier could fire Trav's biggest and baddest
   weapons if it just siphoned off a little of its manuever drive
   output for other purposes.  This paradox requires a fix --- this fix
   is what I called magic.

   Conclusion:  Traveller manuever drives are inconsistant with
   (take your pick)

   1) Striker, MT, and FFS  (throw out some of the canon)
   	or
   2) Physics (bring in some of the magic)

   As much as I've fooled around with option (1), I still /play/ using
   option (2).  And I still have a really good time!

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 10:29:51 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: ANCIENT Grandfather

On Thu, 15 May 1997, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
> 
> >> IIRC, the Droyne home world was in the Regina Subsector and is one of the
> >> worlds in grandfathers pocket dimension.  That's why no one has ever has
> >> found it.
> >
> > Is it - cool!  I thought the three planets in the pocket dimension he
> > created was for those who were faithful to him in the Great War?  
> 
> Different pocket universe. Grandfather made several of them.

Okay, I only know that pocket universe, the one with the three worlds
connecetd via "perl" steps - the one with the almost human robots on them
- - what are the other univeses?  or where can  I get info on them.


Im out like bell bottom trousers,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


	Technology is dominated by those who manage what they cannot understand.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 10:43:58 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Solomani Core Expeditions...

On Sun, 18 May 1997, Michael Barry wrote:

hahahaha :)

> ...were otherwise known as:
> The Solomani Rim War (c.1000), and
> The Rebellion (c.1116-1122)
> 
> **************************************************************************
> Michael Barry
> mbarry@pcug.org.au               <--- checked daily
> **************************************************************************
> 
> 


Im out like bell bottom trousers,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


	Technology is dominated by those who manage what they cannot understand.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 15:53:00 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Arcane gone?

One of my fellow GMs (and one of my Trav players) who subscribes has just
had a letter from arcane's (UK RPG/CCG mag) publishers saying it's about to
be discontinued. Sad as they seemed to like T4 and it was actually quite a
good read.

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Feel the guilt / like shackles round your feet / like a halo in reverse"
                     Depeche Mode "Violator"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 00:36:25 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Let's calm down..

People,

Let's calm down a little on the IG front - the next thing we'll have is T4
book burnings and trials to see who plays anything third edition.

I think we have a concensus that we are irritated at the prices we are
playing for products that are in the main failing to reach the standards we
expect having seen GDW and DGP. But, give IG some credit, they are trying
now. The last few books (M0 EA, and CSC) have been a lot better. The layout
still needs work, and the internal consistency needs the co-ordination that
Marc is hopefully giving it.

They do need to look at prices - and they need to consider the artwork
seriously. They also need to look at other manufacturers prices...

M0C has irritated everyone by the statement that the FS bugs are staying
in. Personally, I'm very disappointed, but would be satisfied if they
corrected the big messes (Vland, too many type A and B etc) and left the
new LL details for us to do if necessary. I'd also like to see the font and
style more reminisent of the late DGP and GDW sector maps so it's useable
and also an INDEX!

Personally, I'm considering each release on its own merits. If they don't
meet the standard, they don't get my 16 UKP.  I'm not blanket saying T4 is
broke so I'm bin-ing it.

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Feel the guilt / like shackles round your feet / like a halo in reverse"
                     Depeche Mode "Violator"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 18:45:55 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: Beyond the Pale

Richard Hough wrote:

>
>On this topic, I have been running a campaign for a few months, and was
>considering posting excerpts or news releases to the TML. Is there any
>interest in this? I can't match Roderick's prose, but I was making TAS-like
>news releases for my players and could post them to the TML.


	Post'em!

R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 18:25:51 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: (off topic) Seeking Michael Bailey

Mick Bailey, are you still out there? Please email me...

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 21:21:20 -0400
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: RE: Rape??

>rape (r=E2p) noun
>1.	The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially
sexual intercourse.
>2. The act of seizing and carrying off by force; abduction.
>3. Abusive or improper treatment; violation: a rape of justice.1
>
>As you can see there are several definitions for the word 'rape'.=20

Look up "insensitive" and "inappropriate".

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 13:34:00 +1200
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: 1G accel?

On Saturday, May 17, 1997 12:38 AM, Brett Fishburne [SMTP:bfish@atlantech.net] 
wrote:
> This makes me wonder -- doesn't the rate of acceleration increase as the
> fuel load decreases?  If F=ma then a=F/m which means that as the mass
> decreases the force increases.  Or are the numbers so huge that the change
> in F is negligable?  Wouldn't this require some sort of integral to
> calculate accurately?
>
> Brett
>

For most Traveller ships the change in Mass is negligible.  But, for the large 
rocket type boosters it was recommended in Fire, Fusion and Steel that you 
recalculate thrust for each 10% of fuel used and generated a total "thrust 
impulse" by calculating the thrust per 10% increment times the Time taken to 
burn that fuel (e.g 1 G for 1 minute is 1 Gee-Minute or 1/60 Gee-Hour).  As the 
rules in TNE gave Gee-Hour requirements for getting to orbit this worked quite 
well.

So I guess I'm saying that "Yes, the change in mass is important but in most 
traveller ships (using HEPlaR anyway) the mass change is negligible"

BCD

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 97 20:29:04 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: T4-Revised: CharGen

On 05/18/97 at 02:32 AM,  "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
said:

> For example:  Skills are given too freely in chargen.  Characters hit 
> the game with a level 6 skill, two level 4s, three level 3s, and a  but
> load of level 2s and 1s.  I think some sort of roll to achieve  skill 
> per year (or some other limiting game mechanic) should be  imposed so
> that characters are not so strong coming out of the  generation process.

> Don't get me wrong here, though.  I do like a character coming out of 
> chargen with a number of different skills--I just don't think that  some
> of the character's specialities should be so high.

Ken, it's not that starting characters have too many skills, it's that
there are too *few* skills to pick from during character generation. 
Double the number of skill *choices* and don't allow complete free choice,
then you make it harder to get above 2 or 3 in any one.

Characters starting game play in their 30's and 40's *should* be strong and
about as highly skilled as they are going to get.
Speaking as an old guy, I plan to continue to learn new skills and improve
on those I already have, but I also realise I don't pick things up as fast
now as it did in my twenties.

> Also, I think that IG should look at the experience system.  This  thing
> is way too generous. In just a couple of adventures, a  character is
> going to become very powerful using this system.  Some  sort of limit
> should be imposed.  This experience system with the  current chargen
> system is a lethal combination that produces God-like  characters.  Game
> ballance is needed here.

I agree here.  My solution is divide skill points by 5 to get the portion
that's added into the Target number.  Experience goes up 5 times more
slowly this way.  ;-> I also don't give experience points all that often
either.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 97 21:30:02 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Need help, please

On 05/18/97 at 04:04 AM,  Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com> said:

> I am running my first Traveller campaign (I'm a long-time fantasy GM) and
> am running into trouble.  Please offer suggestions.

> 1)	One of my players received "Traveller's Aid Society" as a
> mustering-out benefit from the Navy.  He wonders why he should ever work,
> since he can sell a high passage every two months, giving him an
> excellent income.

Ah, yes!  I made that mistake early on too.  ;-> You can't use TAS as it
appears in the book unless you saddle your player some expenses. 
Personally, I just changed the TAS benefit.

In my game a TAS membership means, the member:

1.  Can stay at TAS hotels at a *very* cheap rate.  Non-members pay
    full rate..if there is space available.

2.  Gets a steep discount for passages on ships of many (but not
    all) lines.

3.  Can use the lounge, bar, and all other services in any TAS club.
    Non-members pay a steep cover charge, unless accompaning a
    member, to get into the public areas and don't have access to
    non-public areas.

4.  Can exchange credits (or other currency) for local currency at
    any TAS club at a fair rate of exchange.
    
5.  Can use TAS resources to help gather information on local
    conditions or nearby systems.
    
6.  Has access to dependable local lawyers, brokers, doctors and
    other professonals a Traveller might need.
    
7.  Is covered by a large insurance policy and bond...for bail ;->
    
In short, TAS is like a dependable *private* Consolate the members can
depend on for help without involving the government.  And TAS has clubs
everywhere!

> 2)	The same character was hired to perform a job on a world some 20 jumps
> distant from his starting point.  He purchased passage on a free trader
> going in the right direction, but brought along several dozen small
> Tech-11 computers which he sold for profit on mid-tech worlds, reaping an
> excellent profit which not only paid his way but afforded him a Cr50,000
> profit. What am I doing wrong? 

Maybe nothing.  OTOH, you might be making it too easy for him to make a
profit.  Maybe he gets into a beef with a customs agency on some planet,
and they take all his profits away in fines and duties, have him get taken
by some trader when he buys more items for speculative trade, or just let
him make some money.  He'll need it if he wants to buy his own ship. ;->

> 3)	This one may be unanswerable.  Traveller has turned my players into
> gun nuts.  I've purposfully  allowed very few situations to arise where
> firepower is useful, but they're constantly looking for them and dreaming
> of ways to knock off low-tech governments.  It's getting old and
> infantile fast.  Any suggestions?

It depends on the kind of game you're playing.  If your game is a
rollicking swashbuckler (like StarWars) then let them have lots of
firefights where the good guys never get more than a scratch.  If you game
is more realistic, then the only suggestion I can give you is kill 'em all!
;->

Seriously, kill them fast and bloody.  Then have them generate some more
characters and kill them too, and keep doing that until it dawns on them
that playing fast and loose with all that firepower just gets them killed. 


I like a good fight too, and love to toss them into games, but they tend
more toward unarmed bar room brawls than firefights with automatic weapons. 
Not that firefights don't erupt once in a while too.  ;-> However, they are
usually a consequence of the PC's having a major screwup, not something
they go out and seek.


Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1339
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, May 19 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1340



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Winmail.dat
Re: Need help Please
Re: Rape??
Re: S/F Role playing games
Re: Trash Traveller
Relativistic manuever drives
T4 Sales
Re: Need help, please
RE: Rape??
Re: Let's calm down..
Re: Overblown angst
Re: T4-Revised
Re: T4-Revised: CharGen
Official SSDS Question
Re: FS fix is the right thing to do
Re: Rape??
Re: S/F Role playing games
Re: 1G? and hard science

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 19:35:12 -0700
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Winmail.dat

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC63CE.376044C0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Testing.  

If a Winmail.dat file accompanies this, then the MS IMEP patch has failed miserabley.

This is only a test.

- ----------
From: 	David J. Golden[SMTP:goldendj@pcisys.net]
Sent: 	Monday, May 12, 1997 8:50 PM
To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	Re: Winmail.dat

At 09:01 pm 05/11/97 +0100, you wrote:
>
>>I would also appreciate knowing why some people's mail who post to my
>>lists have that annoying winmail.dat attachment..

	You can thank Milord Bill (preferably engraved on a c- rock aimed at
Redmond). The new Microsoft mail programs assume that everybody in the
world is using the same programs, and attaches a binary file containing
formatting instructions. Aren't standards lovely?

>Look at Survival Margin, and TNE. Could it be that the attachments are
>really the first manifestation of Virus on Terra? Thank goodness I'm using
>a non-standard machine (Mac). Quick, all you PC owners. Smash your machines
>before they destroy the world and convert to MacOS and dig out all those
>old Ataris, Amigas even ZX-81s... Keep the flame! ;-)

	No ZX-81, but my Timex-Sinclair 1000 still works (twice the RAM of the
ZX-81: 2 whole K)...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 97 22:09:15 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Need help Please

On 1997-05-18 12:27 thus spake Bruce Johnson:

>	What bothers me, is that SOMEwhere, I read a description of the
>Traveller's Aid Society, that mentioned it was only the latest of a number
>of such organizations, the previous one's had 'blackballed' themselves to
>death. The reference I remember was fairly clear that TAS dated from the
>early 00's of the Imperium...maybe 400 or 500.
>
>This would invalidate anyone getting TAS as a benefit in M0
>
>What am I remembering?

Could it be that you're remembering the Octagon Society, the "first major 
distressed spacefarer assitance operation to appear in the Spinward 
Marches." I that is so, then TAS must have entered the Marches sometime 
after the establishment of the Octagon society in 342.

The Octagon society was dissolved in 499, and its assets sold at auction.

===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 97 22:09:22 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Rape??

On 1997-05-18 12:46 thus spake Susan M. Shock, er I mean, Allen:

>        If I were a woman, I'd be so highly offended at the comparison
>between being dissatidfied with IG's products to being raped, I would
>unsubscribe on the spot. This shows an appalling lack of sensitivity to an
>issue far more important than any roleplaying game. I honestly feel an
>apology is in order here.

<flame retardant suit on>

I am slightly offended by your attitude. Personally, I would never 
qualify my feelings with a statement like "If I were a woman," I don't 
pretend to think like a woman, but I do like to think that if something 
were abhorrantly offensive to a woman, I, too, would be just as offended.

I think if you feel strongly enough about the comparison, you *should* 
unsubscribe, or else refrain from hyperbole.

Gawd knows there's enough hyperbole on this list already...


BTW, I understand the point you're trying to make. I also understand the 
originator's analogy, and the point he was making. I'm sure his intent 
was not to belittle the physical and emotional damage wrought by rape. I 
also understand that there was a goodly amount of hyperbole in his 
comparison.

===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 97 22:09:19 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: S/F Role playing games

On 1997-05-18 06:47 thus spake Matthew Harelick:

>Unlike alot of players on the list, I do not use the Imerium for my 
>Universe but rather just use the rule set from classic and
>megatraveller. Since the quality of output from IG has been unstable 
>as of late I have since considered converting my Universe to a new 
>rule set, perhaps GURPS. 
>
>Does anyone else have any other suggestions? 

Just last week I posted a short treatise on applying FUDGE task mechanics 
to Traveller, and my post was met with the internet equivalent of a 
"blank stare". Was everyone so disinterested, or was there nothing to 
debate about my post? :-)

FUDGE stands for "Freeform Universal Do-it-yourself Gaming Engine". It is 
a gaming system available for free on the Internet. I think it has lots 
of promise as a task-system replacement for Traveller. It requires only 4 
dice, virtually no pesky mathematics, a consistant difficulty progression 
(bell curve), as well as easy conversion to fit Traveller attributes. See 
<http://members.aol.com/ghostgames/> for more information about FUDGE.

This week I will be putting a slightly revised _FUDGEing Traveller_ 
document on my Jumpspace website, as well as the first steps to a 
FUDGE/Traveller combat system: a consistant, logarithmic range scale; 
from close personal combat, to interplanetary ranges.

===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 00:23:14 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: Trash Traveller

Sam Thomas writes:

>If IG keeps producing TRASH TRAVELLER (TT) let them die. I have been
>playing Traveller since 1977-78 era, and I will still be playing Traveller
>long after IG is gone. IG does not care one bit as to what "we" want, no
>matter how many letters and emails we send them they will not listen. The
>plain fact is they consider us atypical customers, meaning we don't fit
>into their statistical patterns for marketing. I would rather not blow
>smoke up their arse but tell them they are screwing up and where. If that
>type of input causes them to go under so be it.

   Traveller is not is a collection of paper and ink.  It evolved beyond
that point many years ago.  Traveller is bigger than any one individual
fan, GDW, IG or Marc Miller.  It will be around in some form for many
years to come, thanks to game stores that sell used gaming supplies, the
Internet (in fact, I for one believe that the Internet is the future of
RPGs, whether you want to talk document delivery or online sales),  but
mostly Traveller will be around because of collections of people like us
who refuse to let it die.

   That ultimately is the bottom line--the fan base.  Any bozo with a
milligram of business savvy can sell the world a pet rock.  But it takes
something extra to maintain a base of fans over the long haul.  At some
point in the past, GDW had that something, or we wouldn't be here now. 
So far, T4 has surpassed even MegaTraveller in terms of errata, and has
a storyline that is only about 75 percent consistent with previously
published materials.  IG has conducted a clinic in how not to run a
small RPG company, whether through the incompetence/naivete of its
employees, or because much of its associate staff is more
concerned/distracted by outside projects.  Nothing I've seen indicates
to me that either T4 or IG will be around for the long haul.

   We'll still be here though.  And whether we speak ill or positively
of the T4 era or IG five years from now is all that's left to be
determined.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:08:26 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Relativistic manuever drives

>From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>

>   The subject of relativistic motion by Traveller starships came up
>   recently.  I had posted some information on it, but I also begged off
>   posting complete equations because I had difficulty deriving them.
>
>   Well, I have succeeded, so here they are.

Thanks!  I'll use what you posted.
- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 23:05:48 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Subject: T4 Sales

>From: pierre-louis constantin <Pierre-Louis.Constantin@DMI.USherb.CA> 
>        For those who wonder just how good or bad the T4 sales are 
>        Now the store carries all the T4 books.  How many T4 books
>have been sold up to now?  Zero.  None.  Zilch.  Not even the owners
>of the store gave themselves a copy at cost (50% off).  Expecter

It seems to be turning over pretty well at Games of Berkeley, on the 
other hand.

- --Glenn
        I was very surprised to see how many people have played
Traveller in any of its versions through the years... But I was even
more surprised to see how hated T4 is..

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 22:35:51 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Re: Need help, please

>From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>

>Scott Nolan wrote:

>> 3)      This one may be unanswerable.  Traveller has turned my players into gun
>> nuts.  I've purposfully  allowed very few situations to arise where
>> firepower is useful, but they're constantly looking for them and dreaming
>> of ways to knock off low-tech governments.  It's getting old and infantile
>
>Sure. Have them get into a situation where the government they're
>trying to knock off has learned of their reputation and has hired
>an advanced mercenary team to take them out. If they want to play

This situation could be The Seven Samurai (aka The Magnificent Seven) in reverse.  (I've 
always wanted to run a Traveller adventure based on The Seven Samurai; maybe some 
Zhodani nobles trapped deep in Imperial territory after the war are engaged by a local 
community to help fend off raiders, but must swear not to use their psionic powers.... 
but I digress.)  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 01:55:48 -0400
From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Subject: RE: Rape??

>Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 16:45:55 -0400
>From: maverick@castlegate.net (Steve Brengard)
>Subject: RE: Rape??
>
>- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC63AB.1D1E1740
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>rape (r=E2p) noun
>1.	The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially =
>sexual intercourse.
>2. The act of seizing and carrying off by force; abduction.
>3. Abusive or improper treatment; violation: a rape of justice.1
>
>As you can see there are several definitions for the word 'rape'. While =
>I can not condone Paul's use of the term as he did (referring to the =
>battered wife syndrome and the sexual abuse relations), I can see using =
>the term under definition three. While I will continue to support T4, I =

I'm sorry, but the use of the term "rape" in whatever context in regard to
the products released by IG is only proof to me that the person in question
is taking this WAY too seriously. Invoking other definitions simply obscures
the issue. Anyone who thinks IG deliberatley wants to rip people off is, in
my opinion, not thinking.

Allen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 03:28:59 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Let's calm down..

> People,
> 
> Let's calm down a little on the IG front - the next thing we'll have is T4
> book burnings and trials to see who plays anything third edition.

I love it!  Burn, baby, burn! :)

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 03:28:50 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Overblown angst

> Glenn has many good points to make, many good points to make.

Are you doing your Obi-wan Kenobi impression?

       "Obi-wan Kenobi?  Now, there's a name I haven't heard in a 
long time, long time."

 :)

Kenneth.
     --Jedi Knight

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 03:28:58 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: T4-Revised

> 1)	Maps.  A map of  Known Space really should be included.  It could even
> include the boundaries of various milieux.

Excellent point.  

I'm going to compile all of these T4-Revised thread comments and send 
it in to IG when we have exhausted the thread.

How's that for constructive input from the list?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 03:28:53 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: T4-Revised: CharGen

> Ken, it's not that starting characters have too many skills, it's that
> there are too *few* skills to pick from during character generation. 
> Double the number of skill *choices* and don't allow complete free choice,
> then you make it harder to get above 2 or 3 in any one.

This is a very good point, Eris--one that I noticed that but didn't 
click in my head.  I thought something was wrong when looking at the 
chargen sheets.

> Characters starting game play in their 30's and 40's *should* be strong and
> about as highly skilled as they are going to get.
> Speaking as an old guy, I plan to continue to learn new skills and improve
> on those I already have, but I also realise I don't pick things up as fast
> now as it did in my twenties.

I agree, but I was talking more about characters coming out of T4 
chargen with a level 9 skill.  I think a level 4 or 5 would be more 
likely.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 03:36:22 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Official SSDS Question

I'm trying to find out the range of the communicators and sensors for 
my player's ship.

They are in a subsidized merchant, and they have Standard Civilian 
controls and electronics.

I see on page 73 of Starships (look everyone!  I'm actually using 
Starships for something!) the ranges for the commo and sensors under 
the standard package.

My question is--

What do the listed ranges represent?  Is this a max range?  Because, 
what they look like are the short range figures from Brilliant 
Lances.  If so, then medium range for these items would be double the 
listed range.  Long range would be 4 x the listed range, and so on.

But, I can find nothing in the book to clarify this.

How do I use those range figures?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 03:28:54 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: FS fix is the right thing to do

> 	Okay, I'll make this brief. I have more campaign signs to put up 
> shortly...
> 
> 	Accepting the FS data as written is the only possible choice for IG.

I strongly disagree.

> 	The only options as to fixing it were completely impracticable. Posting it 
> on the 'Net leaves out far too many people, re-printing FS will just upset 
> everyone who bought it in the first place, giving out full UPPs for every 
> planet would bankrupt IG, and releasing just the new law levels is a 
> nightmare I don't want to think about.


If you don't like the possible avenues that have been put forth for 
corrected data to reach the public (write ups in a couple of 
JTAS's--web page post), then how about a good, old fashioned, plain 
jane print out on 8.5x11 paper.

This should cost very little.  (1) Produce corrected FS data.  (2) 
Compile this data on 8.5x11 pieces of paper--an erratta sheet.  (3)  
Have this info available for any who send in a SASE.  (4)  Use the IG 
copier to photocopy sheets of paper that advertise the fact that 
these FS erratta sheets are available free to any who send to IG to 
get them, and place this sheet with every new product that IG 
produces for the rest of the year.  (5)  Complete the FS/M0 hardback 
with the new info.

Now, does that sound too costly for any company, no matter how small? 
 I mean, we're talking about producing a flyer on the office printer, 
going to kinko's (or whereever) and having this copied, then placing 
this flyer in all future product packages for a while to get the word 
out.

Customer pays postage with SASE.

We're talking cheap, cheap, cheap.

Why wouldn't that work?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 20:57:01 +1200
From: Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Rape??

>Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 16:45:55 -0400
>From: maverick@castlegate.net (Steve Brengard)
>Subject: RE: Rape??

>rape (r=E2p) noun
>1.	The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially =
>sexual intercourse.
>2. The act of seizing and carrying off by force; abduction.
>3. Abusive or improper treatment; violation: a rape of justice.1

>As you can see there are several definitions for the word 'rape'. While
>I can not condone Paul's use of the term as he did (referring to the
>battered wife syndrome and the sexual abuse relations), I can see using
>the term under definition three. While I will continue to support T4, I

[snip]

>Steven E. Brengard
>maverick@castlegate.net

Okay, I've avoided making any comment for some very personal reasons.
However not only women get raped and sexually abused and one of the
reasons I play Traveller is to escape my 'unpleasant' RL past. Please stop
this, it hurts.


  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
"Baby, Mother, Hospital, Scissors, Creature, Judgment, Butcher, Engineer"
      -:  OMD, 19-2-1983
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 97 04:07:01 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: S/F Role playing games

On 05/18/97 at 10:09 PM,  Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca> said:

> Just last week I posted a short treatise on applying FUDGE task
> mechanics  to Traveller, and my post was met with the internet
> equivalent of a  "blank stare". Was everyone so disinterested, or was
> there nothing to  debate about my post? :-)

Oh, shoot!  I'm really, *really* sorry Glenn, I meant to reply to your
FUDGE posts.  

I know and use FUDGE.  Right now I'm using some of the concepts from
FUDGE in 2 different PBEM's, one of which is Traveller.  At least, *I'm*
calling it Traveller.  It doesn't use much of the T4 rule system or all
of the background.  So, *some* people might not consider it Traveller.
;->

I haven't complete gone over though, I have conversions so I can use a
Traveller style task system for somethings and the FUDGE style system
for others.  Right now I'm *feeling* out where to apply each system. 
Frankly, I've found I use the FUDGE side more and more.

Yes, it is a heretic's dream!  ;->

> This week I will be putting a slightly revised _FUDGEing Traveller_ 
> document on my Jumpspace website, as well as the first steps to a 
> FUDGE/Traveller combat system: a consistant, logarithmic range scale; 
> from close personal combat, to interplanetary ranges.

I'll have to stop by and grab a copy!  The conversion scales I use don't
match up completely with yours, but that's because I use a different
scale for the Traveller side of things.  

Here is a general "rule of thumb" scale I've given to the players in my
games.  


                          ASSET      50/50 
  TASK LEVEL    D6     DESCRIPTION   TARGET
  ============================================
  1. AUTOMATIC    1d6-    TERRIBLE    2-3  
  2. SIMPLE       2d6     POOR        6-7  
  3. AVERAGE      3d6     MEDIOCRE     10  
  4. DIFFICULT    4d6     FAIR       13-14 
  5. FORMIDABLE   5d6     GOOD         17  
  6. STAGGERING   6d6     EXCELLENT  20-21 
  7. HOPELESS     7d6     SUPERB       24  
  8. IMPOSSIBLE   8d6+    LEGENDARY  27-28 


All the players *know* are the descriptions.  

The actual skill numbers are calculated with a 2 step process. First, I
calculate the Skill points using the formula:  

SP = (Attribute+Aptitude)*(Levels of experience) [Aptitude is 1d6]

Second I calculate the Skill Asset: SA = SP/5, dn

Target Numbers are the Skill Asset + some Attribute. 
 
Experience is gained by rolled 3d6 against the Skill Asset.  If the roll
is >= SA the character get's one point (SP).  It takes 5 SP to raise the
Skill Asset by one.

Maybe this is too complicated, I'm still playing with it, but the game
play mainly uses the FUDGE descriptions so all the
complications and numbers stay well hidden.

And the descriptions the players have aren't always the ones *I* use for
the same skill, because they are just how good they *think* they are,
and as you probably know we aren't always the best judges of our own
skill levels.  ;-> 

I can describe a task using normal Traveller terms, roll 4df's and run
my finger up or down the table *very* easily.  I've also got the
multi-die method when I want to use it, too.  ;-> Best of both worlds!

There is a FUDGE mailing list out here in cyberspace, somewhere, where
we could discuss FUDGING Traveller to our hearts content.  You
interested?  

Or we could do it here..might make an interesting change from what we've
been kicking around.  CORE, GURPS, FUDGE, and Traveller..what a
combination!  ;->


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 10:18:11 PDT
From: Eamon Watters <E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: 1G? and hard science

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            
 "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> sent:

>> Idyllic garden worlds with 80 inhabitants, one parsec away from horrid
>>dirtballs with corrosive atmospheres 

>Actually, I'm working with one of those right now.. Tenalphi/Lunion (1826)
>A774102-E Lo Ni An.  Why so few people?  The phrases "small moon",
>"decaying orbit", and "Roche Limit" have much to do with it.

My first M:0 adventure featured that too! Unfortunately I hadn't much access to anything
on moon break-ups. Mine shimmied, wobbled, then went 'Twangggg!!!" (In a geological way)
and split up into asteriod-sized rocks of various sizes.

What was the adventure called? "Breaking up is never easy you know......"

Eamon 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1340
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, May 19 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1341



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: T4-Revised
Positive things about T4: education
Let's have a whip round...
Valentine's Rose (long)
Re: T4-Revised
FS data - what to do?
Re: Need help, please
T4-Revised: CharGen
Re: Early TAS
Rape & ripoffs
CmdrX's 1100 to year 0 Converter. (Longi
Re: STAND UP!
Re: Ken's SSDS Question
Re: Valentine's Rose (long)
Unofficial info
Re: Need help Please
Re: T4 Sales

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 02:25:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: T4-Revised

Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com> wrote:

>>Why don't we, here on the list, define exactly for IG the things in 
>>Book 1 that we would like to see changed before T4-Revised comes out?

>Also a good idea. 

>First, I'd like to echo Ken's comments on the Character Generation and
>Experience systems.  Too generous.  Please make skills harder to acquire,
>especially at higher levels.

I entirely disagree with the first part.  The greater number of skill
levels is one of the things I like *most* about T4 chargen. OTOH, I don't
think skill levels over 6 should be allowed.  If you can have a 10+ in
something it sort of devalues the experienced professional with a 3 or 4. 
Also, the T4 experience system is *badly* broken. 

First off, a 30-40 year old character should be at close to their peak in
skills. I don't think much advancement is needed.  One thing I like about
Traveller characters is that you are playing experienced professionals,
not inexperienced, 17 year-old yahoos who may someday achieve greatness
(yawn). 

Also, In T4 chargen, characters can *never* gain more than 2-3 skill
points a *year*.  This speed of advancement should be kept in play.  If
PCs can gain 8 -10 skill levels a year (or perhaps even more) in play,
then the previous experience system becomes nonsensical.  How about if
characters were limited to a maximum of 1 roll to gain or raise a skill
every 4 months?  This way, characters would advance at the same rate the
did during chargen, and they would not advance so fast that they would
become to powerful to play any time soon. 

>Second, my own suggestions:

>1)      Maps.  A map of  Known Space really should be included.  It 
>could even include the boundaries of various milieux.
Good idea
>2)      All the charts should be gathered together in the back of the 
>book for quick reference.
Yes!
>3)      Examples of ground combat and ship-to-ship combat would be useful.
Agreed.  Clear examples for all complex rules is highly useful.


- -John Snead jnsead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:20:53 +0100
From: Nick Munn <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Positive things about T4: education

I like the T4 educational options, which are a good replacement for 
my own house rules.  The use of background (pre-18) skills is also a 
nice touch.

I also like the M0 background, in potentia.

Er.

That's it.

Nick

Dr. Nick Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, University of Sheffield
Tel. (0)114 222 2673, email n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:17:10 +0100
From: Nick Munn <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Let's have a whip round...

Dear all,

OK, we're fed up with IG over FS.  (I looked at the presentation, 
nasty fixed-font sector data, and said "stuff that", and will again.)

How much money do you think it would take to *bribe* IG into fixing 
FS?  We could have a whip round 8-)

Fits the cynics' opinion that IG need paying twice to do anything 
right... no, sorry, I don't want to start that thread again.  Please, 
please, mercy, GK, GK, SOS.

Of course, another solution might be to take a whip round to IG in a 
more, um, direct sense...

[No, I'm not advocating violence towards IG, except in a sense 
intended to exemplify my dissatisfaction with some of their products, 
and if any of IG's staff do brutally disembowel themselves while 
combing their hair, my alibi is being on a different continent. 8-)]

Please, can we get back to talking about Traveller, the game?  Pretty 
please?  With sugarlumps on top?

Nick

Dr. Nick Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, University of Sheffield
Tel. (0)114 222 2673, email n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 12:55:32 +0100
From: Nick Munn <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Valentine's Rose (long)

Dr. Shaliin Ap, Dept. of Social Psychology, Imperial University of 
Sylea, in a public lecture, 045-0010:

The mingling of Solomani and Vilani cultures in the Second Imperium 
had some curious effects.  Terrans were quick to appreciate the 
Vilani shugilii and their associated customs, perhaps because of 
similarities to cooks and chefs on Old Earth.  The Vilani, although 
rather more conservative than their Solomani conquerors, came to 
adopt a number of Terran customs as their own.  Most widely accepted 
was the concept of Valentine's Day, held on 14 February (Terran) and 
now on Day 45 of the Imperial Calendar.

One of the difficulties in Vilani society at the time of the 
Ramshackle Empire was its rigidity; Vilani simply had difficulty in 
stepping outside the bounds of traditionally "proper" behaviour.  
This was in part an inheritance of the Ziru Sirka's culture, but was 
also a reaction to the frighteningly loose and direct culture of the 
Solomani.  At the same time, Solomani mores did strike a chord of 
horror mixed with admiration, especially among the younger and 
lower-class elements of Vilani society.

It was the inevitable mixing between young people which introduced 
Vilani to the idea of Valentine's Day as a day for declaring, um,
romantic feelings.  The stepping out of character was rather a 
thrill, but (crucially) stepping back into the Vilani cultural mould 
was also a relief.  Thus, Valentine's Day contributed not to the 
breakup of Vilani culture but instead to a gentle adaption of it, an 
adaption so successful that before the Long Night fell, it had spread 
to huge numbers of worlds throughout the Second Imperium.

This is only one example of the cultural integration which has made 
our own Imperium such a cosmopolitan inheritor of empire, but it is 
unusual for one reason in particular: it's possible to measure its 
spread rather accurately.  Obviously, the Long Night has played havoc 
with records, but Valentine's Day has a rather more tangiable image.

The symbol of the Terran festival was a stylised heart.  For some 
reason -- perhaps their relative disinterest in medical science and 
anatomy -- this did not appeal to the Vilani, who latched onto a 
secondary symbol, that of the rose.  This is a flower believed to be 
of Terran origin, and which was almost unobtainable at the time, and 
hence a rather tangiable symbol of affection, given its expense.  
Most people had to make do with the symbol of the rose.  I could give 
examples from the holovideo industry of how the rose became a symbol 
of romance... however, suffice it to say that roses and love became 
linked in the public imagination.

I suppose it was inevitable that some tidy-minded Vilani would wish 
for roses which grew quickly and lasted once cut.  It was equally 
inevitable that sooner or later a Solomani geneticist would produce 
one, the plant we know as Valentine's Rose.  Once the plant existed, 
it was certain that Vilani and Solomani alike would sell it wherever 
the market would bear.  This plant, therefore, is an indicator of the 
spread of Solomani influence in the Rule of Man.  Furthermore, 
mutation patterns can also be traced, giving us an idea of the 
patterns of distribution of the rose.

As you can see, the tiny plant which I placed at my left elbow at the 
start of this lecture is now quite a respectable bloom.  Tomorrow I 
shall give it to a certain geneticist of Solomani extraction.  I'm 
sure many of you will be making similar gestures, though not to the 
same person I hope.  Please, when you do, think of the Imperium and 
how the rose has pulled us together.  Then you can go back to 
thinking about... other things.

Before I conclude, I should like to thank Dr. Felissa Jones of the 
Biotechnology department here at Imperial, our generous sponsors at 
the Office of Calendar Compliance, and of course yourselves for your 
attentive listening and generous applause.  I wish you all a happy 
Valentine's Day tomorrow, Twoday 45th of His Imperial Majesty's tenth 
year of goverment.  Long live the Emperor!

*   *   *   *

There are some obvious adventuring opportunities which arise from the 
existence of Valentine's Rose, which must be one of the most 
important cargoes to deliver on time the players can haul.  Fragile, 
too...

There may be a mutant strain which has a mildly aphrodisiac scent.

There may still be a market for the much rarer Terran rose, if any 
can be found.

*   *   *   *

Nick

Dr. Nick Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, University of Sheffield
Tel. (0)114 222 2673, email n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 14:16:05 +0200
From: Per Bernhardsson <bard@ludd.luth.se>
Subject: Re: T4-Revised

Kenneth Bearden wrote:


> ... when we have exhausted the thread.

That is never... :)

 / Per

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 21:02:02 +0800
From: Michael Bailey <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: FS data - what to do?

Well, I guess that most of us agree that the FS data, as presented by IG,
is not overly useful.

But, why don't we have a shot at fixing it ourselves?  We've all got ideas
on how it could be fixed...let's get together and _do_ something.  I'm more
than willing to coordinate & contribute to an effort that might salvage
something, caviet - IG copyright permitting...that'll have to be looked at.

If anyone has any suggestions, comments, flames, whatever, email me at
mickb@opera.iinet.net.au
Michael Bailey (mickb@opera.iinet.net.au)

"You drive, I think there's something wrong with me."
		Hunter S. Thompson, 'Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas'

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 07:05:00 -0600
From: Tim Smith <tim.smith@bbs.logicnet.com>
Subject: Re: Need help, please

>Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com> wrote

>1)	One of my players received "Traveller's Aid Society" as a mustering-out
>benefit from the Navy.  He wonders why he should ever work, since he can
>sell a high passage every two months, giving him an excellent income.

There are two fairly easy ways out of this: The first one is to make the TAS
tickets non-refundable, i.e. they cannot be legally traded for money; that
can also spin off some short adventures involving criminals as the player
tries to "scalp" the tickets. The second is to keep the players moving, and
let them know that the ticket is planet to planet. It seems to have been
intended (though not explicitly stated) since the first version of this game
that the ticket would be good for 1 jump (or until the ship reached the next
available planet); otherwise, the cost of life support becomes more
expensive than the ticket.

>2)	The same character was hired to perform a job on a world some 20 jumps
>distant from his starting point.  He purchased passage on a free trader
>going in the right direction, but brought along several dozen small Tech-11
>computers which he sold for profit on mid-tech worlds, reaping an excellent
>profit which not only paid his way but afforded him a Cr50,000 profit.
>What am I doing wrong?

No problem. He deserves credit for good thinking. Unless, again, shipping in
high-tech computers from off planet is ILLEGAL, especially without a
merchant's license. Also, those computers will need consumables - have you
ever tried using a data cassette or an 8-inch disk in your PC/Mac? People
can simply refuse to buy them because of the fact they can't get software or
hardware that interfaces. In addition, the merchants who run the free trader
will probably not be happy with someone going into their cargo bay and
removing small bits of cargo every trip; the alternative is that the
player's cabin is unsafely stacked with numerous boxes. The sale price of
the computers crashes, or someone else finds out about the player's scheme
and floods the market. Or, worst of all, they could pay him in local credits
- - these are (a) not accepted everywhere and (b) worth less than Imperial
credits.

>3)	This one may be unanswerable.  Traveller has turned my players into gun
>nuts.  I've purposfully  allowed very few situations to arise where
>firepower is useful, but they're constantly looking for them and dreaming
>of ways to knock off low-tech governments.  It's getting old and infantile
>fast.  Any suggestions?

As far as I know, this is a phase just about EVERY new Traveller player goes
through. The best answer (if you're willing to sacrifice a group of PC's) is
let 'em try. Low-tech doesn't mean stupid, cowardly, or even awestruck by
high technology. Most Imperial worlds have at least seen high-tech gear, and
they understand how to deal with it (take it away at customs, watch anyone
carrying around too much, etc...). Then they could call for aid from the
Imperial government; most nobles won't sit around waiting for the PC's to
'storm the castle' - they'll have a radio message offworld so fast it'll
make their heads swim. Then, as the PCs are relaxing in their ill-gotten
gains and feeling proud of themselves while wondering what happened to the
old baron, in storms a battalion or two of not-friendly-at-all Imperial
marines/army.

The important thing here is not to sell the enemy short - they won't make
stupid mistakes just because their culture is TL2. Under every set of rules
prior to T4, spears (TL0) could eventually get through battle dress (TL14).
If the players want a world where they will be comfortable, the differential
isn't going to be nearly that high, and so the danger will be...
- ----------
"I think therefore I am" is not logically co-dependent.
The Future: Brought to you by - Skuld

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 08:09:36 +0000
From: twolf@unix.tfs.net
Subject: T4-Revised: CharGen

I like the T4 character generation system.  It allows me to generate 
good solid characters that are in their late twenties or early 
thirties.  I use to be amazed that most traveller characters were 
in their forties and fifties.  It was like a senior citizen 
organization.

IG keep the current system, but fix the tables.  You learn different 
stuff in the Navy Academy and a Military Academy.

JD
Twolf

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 07:25:40 -0600
From: Tim Smith <tim.smith@bbs.logicnet.com>
Subject: Re: Early TAS

>Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 11:27:47 -0700 (MST)
>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
>
>	What bothers me, is that SOMEwhere, I read a description of the
>Traveller's Aid Society, that mentioned it was only the latest of a number
>of such organizations, the previous one's had 'blackballed' themselves to
>death. The reference I remember was fairly clear that TAS dated from the
>early 00's of the Imperium...maybe 400 or 500.
>
>This would invalidate anyone getting TAS as a benefit in M0
>
>What am I remembering?

"What you are experiencing is a temporary distortion of reality" - Fong.

You are experiencing a flashback to the Octagon Society. To quote the
Library Data in Twilight's Peak (adventure 3):

"Established in 342, the Octagon Society was the first major distressed
spacefarer assistance to appear in the Spinward Marches. The group thrived
on public contributions and some tax revenues for 150 years; it collapsed in
the late 400's when scandals emerged over quality of shelter construction
and the disposition of certain funds."

<snipped some out>

"The Octagon Society was dissolved in 499 and its assets were sold at auction."

Hope that helps...
- ----------
"I think therefore I am" is not logically co-dependent.
The Future: Brought to you by - Skuld

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 14:29:09 +0100
From: Nick Munn <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>
Subject: Rape & ripoffs

> From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
> Subject: RE: Rape??

[snip original discussion]

> I'm sorry, but the use of the term "rape" in whatever context in
> regard to the products released by IG is only proof to me that the
> person in question is taking this WAY too seriously. Invoking other
> definitions simply obscures the issue. Anyone who thinks IG
> deliberatley wants to rip people off is, in my opinion, not
> thinking.
> 
> Allen

Is this the same Allen Shock to whom I sent four GURPS books a couple
of years ago, believing (naively) that I would be sent some Traveller
products in return?  Didn't get a single email back after I sent the
stuff.  That was from his mother-in-law's email address, which was
also @cmu.csv.cmich.edu FWIW.

If so, we have the opinion of an expert rip-off artist here, and I 
think we should take note.

IAMTI.

Nick

P.S. Yes, this would be more appropriate by private email, but it is 
relevant to Traveller players, IMO.

Dr. Nick Munn, Dept. of Information Studies, University of Sheffield
Tel. (0)114 222 2673, email n.s.munn@sheffield.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 10:22:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: CmdrX's 1100 to year 0 Converter. (Longi

Well alot of people have asked for it, so here it goes.

Presenting (Loud Fanfaire),
Commander X and the Quest for the Holy Grai...wait thats not right!  Ok I'll 
come in again :)

Presenting (Loud Fanfaire),
Commander X and his Year 1100 to Year 0 UPP conversion rules.  (aka FS fix 
0.5beta)

Ok, first let me say that this will only convert the old CT or MT year 1100 
world to something that should represent the worlds as they are im Year 0. 
 If you want to use this to create your own FS sectors, go right ahead. 
 Personaly I am using them for the 'GM's Playgrounds' of Zarushagar, Fornast 
and Delphi sectors, which will not have anything published by IG(so claims 
FS), but were published by GDW.

Ok, here we go, bear in mind that these are beta rules, I invite any 
comments or additions you may have.

First of all, we need to find the tech level, for all Ex RoM worlds(which is 
most of what the Imperium has gotten to by now) The TL cap is 13, if you 
want a higher tech world, thats your perogative.

Now that yor wolrds tech has been capped off, or left alone if not greater 
than 13, its time to degrade that tech lev.

If TL is 13-10 subtract 1d6
if TL is 9-7 subtract 1d3 (an actual good use of a 1/2 dice<G>)
if TL 6 or less, let it be.

Now use the TL reduction to degrade the starport.
if reduced by 1, dont worry about it
if reduced by 2, -1 Starport Code
if reduced by 3-4 -2 starport Codes
if reduced by 5-6 -3 Starport Codes

special note, personaly i dont like the idea of low tech societies(i.e. non 
stellar or non space fairing) w/o interstelar contact of having High level 
starports.  If you wish to use this rule here it is:

If the world is in the Imperial Sphere (i.e. claimed by the 3rd Imp, see my 
growth maps)
leave the starport as you have it now at this stage.

If the world has been contacted(i.e. within the merchant or scout contact 
areas), cap off the Starport using this chart

TL 8-7  Starport Max C
TL 6    Starport Max D
TL 5-  Starport Max E

If the world has not been contacted, reduce the Starport Caps by one level 
(D, E, X)

Again, if you want to make a world that has a higher level starport, go 
ahead, I would suggest it be part of a Pocket Empire tho.

Ok now to figure population, for those worlds that have reliable tech levels 
needed for surviving a harsh world, you dont need to worry about "maximum 
sustainable population"
Those TL are 7 and above for tainted atmos TL 9 and above for Exotic, 
Corrorsive and Insidious atmos.  If you have a world with these atmos and 
the TL has been reduced too far to possibly sustain life w/o the proper 
tech, nuke the world, make it X---000-0 Ba.

Find max sustainable population for TL 7 or less worlds using the same chart 
thats in TNE, its coppied here for those who dont have TNE:

Begin with code of A,
Size   1-4, -2pop  5-7, -1pop
Atmos   4, -2pop  5,7,9  -1pop
Hydro   0, -2pop  1,2,A  -1pop


This gives a Cap for population of a lower tech world, I figured higher 
techs could sustain more people, and TL 8 or 9 should be when somewhat 
reliable life support equipment is available.

Ok, now reduce the population to account for 1100 years of pop reduction, 
subtract the tech level reduction from the world population multipler. Dont 
forget to carry the one, that is if it goes beyond 0, take one away from the 
Population code and make a ten out of it for the pop multi.

interesting note, if population code is 5 or less, reduce the tech by one 
more point, if this would reduce the starport too, do it.

Ok the only thing left to do is fint the gov and law codes.  now that we 
have a new population, use that to find the gov and law as you would for a 
totaly new homegrown world.

Gov= population-7 + 2d6 (IIRC, I forget, thats what I get for using a 
program <G>)
Law=Gov-7 +2d6.

Another thing is to find Naval and Scout bases, I just delete the old data, 
and recalculate with the new degraded starport using the basic world 
building rules.

Class A or B 2d6 8+ for naval base.
I dont remember exacly what it was for Scout bases, these are IIRC values 
from memory:
On 2d6:
A  10+
B   8+
C  6+
D  4+

There you go.  How about some examples? OK

1100 data:  Shalishii  A584998-F  Im 310 G2V

step one cap the worlds tech  A584998-D
step 2, reduce the tech with 1d6, I get a 4:  A584998-9
step 3, reduce the starport, 4 reduces by 2 steps:  C584998-9
This world is in Imperial space (Vland sector) and its tech is high enough 
so no Starport cap.
This world also has a high enough tech, no need to cap the population(the 
cap would be 9 btw if TL was 7 due to size 5)
Now reduce the population multiplyer by 4 3-4 is -1, reduce the pop digit by 
one (to 8) and 10-1 makes the pop multi a 9

C584898-9 Im 910 G2V

Now we redo the gov and law, pop8-7 is 1 +2d6(roll a 7) gov is now an 8
Redo the Law 8-7 is 1 +2d6(rolled a 9) Law is A (ugh, they must have 
lightened up in 1100 years <g>)

Now do the bases with a starport of C, no chance for Naval, and i need a 
6(IIRC) for a scout, but to be safe, i say there is no scout base, the roll 
failed.

Now we have our downgraded world:

Year 0  Shalishii C58488A-9 Im 910 G2V
Year 1100 Shalishii A584998-F Im 310 G2V

There ye go!

Commander X
(Flame retardant suit on, Gauss Hydroshooter-1000 locked and loaded <G>)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 10:40:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Re: STAND UP!

Kenneth said:

>Well, I'll tell ya Tim, and you too JD, the battle cry here is not to
>GROW UP.  It's to STAND UP!

>Stand up for the game that captures your imagination and makes us so
>passionate about it.

>Stand up and let IG know when they are making a bad decision.

>Stand up and have an affect on the quality of the game that we are
>all pooring hundreds of dollars into.

>STAND UP AND LET THEM KNOW WHAT WE EXPECT OUT OF THEM.


AMEN BROTHER!!!

I too have grown weary of all this, that's why most of my game is home 
grown, has been since MT days.  I think that if I can inspire people to get 
together to build good ships (IBSA) and make some cool rules (Hackers and 
Year 1100 to year 0) that I could 'jumpstart' or help the game along.  And I 
know now I am not alone.

I agree, if something is not done soon, this great work, this dream, this 
game Traveller, will exist only in the minds of its oldest players.  As I 
used to say during my TNE days...

KEEP THE FLAME!!!
The flame of Traveller alive!

Yeah, I know, I'm a damned romantic! :)

Commander X

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:03:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Re: Ken's SSDS Question

>Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 03:36:22 +0000
>From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
>Subject: Official SSDS Question

>I'm trying to find out the range of the communicators and sensors for
>my player's ship.

>They are in a subsidized merchant, and they have Standard Civilian
>controls and electronics.

>I see on page 73 of Starships (look everyone!  I'm actually using
>Starships for something!) the ranges for the commo and sensors under
>the standard package.

>My question is--

>What do the listed ranges represent?  Is this a max range?  Because,
>what they look like are the short range figures from Brilliant
>Lances.  If so, then medium range for these items would be double the
>listed range.  Long range would be 4 x the listed range, and so on.

>But, I can find nothing in the book to clarify this.

>How do I use those range figures?

>Kenneth.

 ------------------------------

Yes Kenneth, you are thinking on the right lines.  As SSDS is based on FF&S 
the ranges are indeed BL ranges.  At least that the way I figure it and use 
for my campain.

Also, the numbers for the sensors are the actual ranges in 30,000km hexes 
for the sensor package.  A3 P2 J0 would be Active range of 90,000km(short) 
and Passive range of 60,000km(short).

When I was making my X-Fighters, I had to basicaly discover/use this system 
to discover just what had been done, and create my own electronic package to 
fit inside a small fighter, as I could not find anything in SSDS about it. 
:)

Commander X

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 07:59:59 +0000
From: suzd@goodnet.com
Subject: Re: Valentine's Rose (long)

Thank you!  

For a post that is nearer the heart of the game than 98% 
off the posts to the list.

For a post that inspires the *gamers* of the list to greater depth of 
role-playing.

For a post that has a message of warmth and love, not bitterness and
ill-conceived mouthings.

For a post that made me smile.... a rare, very rare, thing on TML 
these days.

Suz

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 19:01:37 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@orca.bc.ca>
Subject: Unofficial info

Jason Anderson (midnight@kagi.com) writes:

>What I've taken to doing is using the players information, and then
>generating the rest of the systems stats myself. Ok, so its not "official",
>but at least I can modify them to suit myself.

Jason, wanna do the TML a big favor and post your "unofficial" system
stats? Also, has anyone scanned in the FS data to be computer-readable? I
would love to have this so I can do some mass-changing of UWPs.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 08:08:05 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Need help Please

On Sun, 18 May 1997, Glenn Hoppe wrote:

> On 1997-05-18 12:27 thus spake Bruce Johnson:
> 
> >	What bothers me, is that SOMEwhere, I read a description of the
> >Traveller's Aid Society, that mentioned it was only the latest of a number
> >of such organizations, the previous one's had 'blackballed' themselves to
> >death. The reference I remember was fairly clear that TAS dated from the
> >early 00's of the Imperium...maybe 400 or 500.
> >
> >This would invalidate anyone getting TAS as a benefit in M0
> >
> >What am I remembering?
> 
> Could it be that you're remembering the Octagon Society, the "first major 
> distressed spacefarer assitance operation to appear in the Spinward 
> Marches." I that is so, then TAS must have entered the Marches sometime 
> after the establishment of the Octagon society in 342.
> 
> The Octagon society was dissolved in 499, and its assets sold at auction.

Bingo!!! That's exactly what I was remembering vaguely. Now where did you
pull that quote from??

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 08:12:31 -0700
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: T4 Sales

pierre-louis constantin wrote:

>	For those who wonder just how good or bad the T4 sales are
>and why the prices have been marked down, consider my local game
>shop:  It carries almost all the RPG's, has tonnes of customers, some
>of which are Traveller fans.  In fact 3 of the owner/managers are
>Traveller players.
>
>	Now the store carries all the T4 books.  How many T4 books
>have been sold up to now?  Zero.  None.  Zilch.  Not even the owners
>of the store gave themselves a copy at cost (50% off).  Expecter
>number of sales?  1 - when I go get Emperor's Arsenal this weekend.
>:)
>
>	I was very surprised to see how many people have played
>Traveller in any of its versions through the years... But I was even
>more surprised to see how hated T4 is..

This doesn't surprise me one bit. I think it's ridiculous to assume that

1) New players will buy a game so riddled with poor formatting (courier
fonts, bad production values), mediocre and non-Travelleresque art, and
broken rules when in a market that's already depressed there are so many
other choices available.

2) Old players will buy a game that breaks canon at will (Fusion Plus) and
doesn't make a wholehearted attempt at satisfying either the TNE fans or
the CT fans who make up Traveller's core market.

3) The game's foundation is a set of 20-year-old rules. You don't have to
make the game as complex as TNE (which, BTW I think is the best set of
mechanics for Trav), but you do have to make it complex and realistic
enough that it doesn't insult the players' intelligences. Also, PUH-LEAZE
playtest these things instead of just making them up and publishing them!
You cannot tell me that task system was playtested appropriately before
publication!

I'm afraid Traveller, as we know it, may be doomed. I only hope someone
picks up the flag.

Best,

Chris Griffen

===================================================
Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.

http://www.cris.com/~Cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml


- --------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                      Phone: (408) 527-7189
Cisco Systems, Inc.                      Fax:   (408) 527-0452
NMBU Technical Publications              cgriffen@cisco.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1341
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, May 19 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1342



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Open fire at all canons!
RE: FS fix is the right thing to do
Re: Need help, please
Hmmmm....
Re: T4-revised
Re: Ships in Port?
Apology?  well, one at least.
Why I like Traveller & T4
Re: Rape
Re: Stand Up, etc.
Re: T4-Revised
TML Helps Out!  (was FS data - what to do?)
Re: Need help, please

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 12:59:29 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@orca.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Open fire at all canons!

>You don't really mean to say that any deviation from published details
>makes a game non-Traveller do you?  There *are* some people here that give
>me that impression.

I never got that impression at all. All the posts complaining about
non-Traveller canon specifically mentioned rules published by IG. I don't
recall anyone saying what individual players should be allowed to do. In
fact, every Traveller referee is a heretic; the rules and background have
changed so many times that practically any ruling one makes will contradict
something once published.

>Marc, Loren, nor Frank never dropped by to bless or damn my games. They
>never required an orthodoxy test when I laid my money down. They never
>threatened to take back their books if I didn't follow their rules.  ;->

No one ever made such an absurd claim. Really, this is a complete straw
man; the complaint was exclusively about IG's own books, not about the
people playing the game. The complaint is that IG publishes rules and
histories that contradict themselves. Now I have no complaint about
referees changing the rules themselves, I do it myself. I do have a
complaint when IG publishes books which state a TL 7 planet with a total
population of 100 fought the Sylean Federation to a standstill for over a
century and took several Sylean worlds. I have a complaint when IG
publishes books which state a comparatively tiny and inefficient
intestellar empire whose strategic advantage was Jump 3 but was not able to
hold a larger empire was nonetheless able to achieve TL 15 technology. I
have a complaint when IG publishes adventures with cloaking devices and FTL
radio. I have a complaint when IG publishes rules which make it unlikely a
starship would survive a single term. I have a complaint when IG publishes
books with starship components whose prices differ by an order of magnitude.

I do a lot of things in my campaign which aren't in the rule books. All I
ask is that when IG publishes a book it do enough background checks to
ensure I don't have to do significant damage control to use it. No one is
forcing anyone to use the rules as published. I would just like it to be
*possible* to use the rules as published.

What burns me is how simple it would have been to fix these problems if IG
had just bothered to actually proofread this stuff before publishing. It
would have been trivial to make Keshi a TL 12 high-population industrial
world. It would have been simple to make the TL 14 artifacts discoveries
from some unknown but contemporary civilization. It would have been easier
to reuse the MT misjump rules instead of creating new ones that make
interstellar commerce impossible. They could propose alternate game
universes with FTL radio using the Traveller rules. Instead, IG just
publishes without even bothering to check for consistency and then ignores
customers who complain. This, I have a complaint with.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 10:25:23 -0500
From: "K.C. Komosky" <themoof@autobahn.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: FS fix is the right thing to do

Ken Bearden wrote:

>If you don't like the possible avenues that have been put forth for
>corrected data to reach the public (write ups in a couple of
>JTAS's--web page post), then how about a good, old fashioned, plain
>jane print out on 8.5x11 paper.
>
>This should cost very little.  (1) Produce corrected FS data.  (2)
>Compile this data on 8.5x11 pieces of paper--an erratta sheet.  (3)
>Have this info available for any who send in a SASE.  (4)  Use the IG
>copier to photocopy sheets of paper that advertise the fact that
>these FS erratta sheets are available free to any who send to IG to
>get them, and place this sheet with every new product that IG
>produces for the rest of the year.  (5)  Complete the FS/M0 hardback
>with the new info.
>
>Now, does that sound too costly for any company, no matter how small?
> I mean, we're talking about producing a flyer on the office printer,
>going to kinko's (or whereever) and having this copied, then placing
>this flyer in all future product packages for a while to get the word
>out.
>
>Customer pays postage with SASE.
>
>We're talking cheap, cheap, cheap.

	Here's why. You didn't specify wether the errate would just contain new 
LLs, or would contain entire UPPs, but both are disasters.

	Having a list of LLs completely separate from the rest of the UPP is such 
a monumental PITA I don't even want to think about it. Every single time 
you want to look up a world, you have to first look it up in FS, and then 
look up the LL on a cryptic errate sheet. I DON'T WANT TO DO THIS!

	Printing out the entire UPPs would bankrupt IG. That would mean printing 
out the ENTIRE FS book free of charge. In the past few weeks, as Campaign 
Manager for a local Reform Party candidate in the Canadian election, I've 
had a crash course in printing economics. You have no idea how expensive it 
is - and we were just printing a 1 page brochure.

K.C. Komosky
themoof@autobahn.mb.ca

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 18:23:51 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: Need help, please

>From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
> 3)	This one may be unanswerable.  Traveller has turned my players into gun
> nuts.  I've purposfully  allowed very few situations to arise where
> firepower is useful, but they're constantly looking for them and dreaming
> of ways to knock off low-tech governments.  It's getting old and infantile
> fast.  Any suggestions?

        Apply ULTRA-REALISM: Kill one PC for each dead NPC, on average,
unless the combat has been so well-planned that they've spent half a session
role-playing before it. Even one PC per 4 NPCs may work.

>From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
>No, I'm not -that- bad a GM.  I can show them what a bad idea that would
>be.  They haven't tried, but that's mostly because they know, out of
>character, that I'd hate it.  These guys are constantly dreaming of ways to
>use Tech to kill things, which just seems infantile to me.

        A suggestion: Use the gimmick idea. Let them know there are some
REAL POWERFUL GUNS out there. VRF Portable Gauss Machineguns, Plasma
Machineguns, TL17-21 weapons, whatever. Just let them know, throw some
clues. Let them dream. And then, let them wander two dozen planets and burn
their neurons to figure out where those wonderful weapons are... let's them
make a lot of research and travel to find their desired weapons... Put some
powerful enemies after the same weapons, and let things grow more and mroe
dangerous. Kill half the PCs on the last adventure. And let them pick one of
the wonderful weapons, but with a caveat: ammunition is special and cannot
be produced below TL17, so they can only use it half a dozen of times. Or,
the TL21 badly damaged weapon has a 1/6 probability of doing very nasty
things with the PC every time it's used. Or, the weapon is so spectacular
that every time they use it without VERY careful planning, word spreads out
and the REALLY POWERFUL organization that also seeks the weapons starts
chasing them around. Let them worry a lot to maintain their gimmick.
        Your PCs will be more and more time thinking and planning, even if
one of their main concerns is still how to use hi-tech weapons.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 97 14:47:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Hmmmm....

  In an old Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society (GDW
  imprint), there was an article with adventure hooks that
  involved virally-induced porphyria, which, among its other
  symptoms, caused recession of the gums and a craving for
  iron-rich substances - most notably, human blood.

  The fascination with the legend of the Vampire is noted.

  In a different old JTAS (GDW), there was an article about a
  world (interestingly, named Porphyry) where the ruling class
  suffered from a rare hereditary form of anemia, and all
  citizens were required to donate blood to help the rulers
  survive.

  The fascination continues - with a twist.

  Just a few days ago (probably last Tuesday), in the NYTimes,
  there was an article about a rare disease called XERODERMA
  PIGMENTOSUM.  The most notable characteristic of this disease
  is that even miniscule amounts of exposure to UV can cause
  severe burns and skin cancer - the particular case that was
  the "centerpiece" or "impact study" for the article exhibited
  such reactions as bubbling skin on exposure to the sun, or
  even to many fluorescent lights.  The parents of this little
  girl have created a summer camp for afflicted children that
  operates on a "reversed" clock - work, play, and so on at
  night; sleep during the day.

  Should I continue the fascination with a different twist?
  Would the list be receptive to an adventure on this theme?

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  No more twit replies required. I got it! Thanks all!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 18:39:02 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: T4-revised

>From: maverick@castlegate.net (Steve Brengard)
>1)	Maps.  A map of  Known Space really should be included.  It could =
>even include the boundaries of various milieux.

        Wasn't the new/old Milieu Zero Campaign going to include maps for
the expanding Imperium between year -30 and year 200?

        Maps of known space are a must for the Basic Rulebook, but they are
also a must for all background-oriented supplements. This was also an
important failure of M0. I really loved the abundance of maps in MT and the
graphical explanation of the fall of the Imperium in Rebellion Sourcebook /
Hard Times. I think M0 should have something similar... and, in fact, IIRC,
Jo Grant posted some time ago the ASCII version of such maps.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 10:42:20 -0600
From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Ships in Port?

>At 09:13 am 05/16/97 -0600, you wrote:
>
>>>I have tried using the unstuffit using LF conversions and no conversions.
>>>When I try and open it with or without updating links I get garbage. I am
>>>using Excel 97 for Winblows 95. Could you try save them as sylk files and
>>>send them to me uncompressed?
>>
>>I've absconded with copies of them and put them uncompresses into my
>>archive (http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/archive/spreadsheets/) -
>>I changed the naming of the files so my web server would know to specify
>>them as Excel spreadsheets, which might cause problems for them, but
>>they're pretty much ready to go. As I remember, it called "WBH" for macros,
>>which I renamed to "WBH.xls".
>
>	Joe, do you want updated (Excel95) copies in ZIP format to post as
>well?
>I'm not finding any time at all to keep my site up-to-date, although I hope
>that changes in a month or two.
>
>	BTW, Excel uses ".xlm" for macro sheets, I believe.

Yeah - sounds great!

 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 PGP Fingerprint: E3 3F DF 08 BE 3E 44 A0  EE A9 80 7E 22 99 CD DF
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 10:35:01 -0500
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: Apology?  well, one at least.

Well, it seems that my comments have evoked deep emotions within people.
Both for and against my position.  It seems that my comments were read into
a little too deeply by some, and, it seems, I have offended some.

I just deleted something of an explanation and comments because I really
don't think that it is appropriate to the discussion on the list.  What I
have posted to the list was merely an expression of the way I felt by the
treatment I got from IG, a commentary if you will.

I do not in any way apologize for the way I feel.  I will gladly apologize
for offending anyone with what I said.  The way I feel will not change, nor
will what I have said change.

This will be my last post to the list on this matter.  Feel free to belittle
me and condem me to Hell (or an exotic atmosphere world if you are athiest)
for what I have done, but it will not change the way I feel.

>        If I were a woman, I'd be so highly offended at the comparison
>between being dissatidfied with IG's products to being raped, I would
>unsubscribe on the spot. This shows an appalling lack of sensitivity to an
>issue far more important than any roleplaying game. I honestly feel an
>apology is in order here.
>
>Allen Shock

Allen, First, If you were a woman, I might apologize to you, but since you
are not, I wont.  I am not insensitive to the seriousness of rape.  Do me a
favor, though, study a littly about analogy.  If you are interested, eMail
me and I will explain to you the two ways you have misinterpreted the
analogy I used.  I can see how easily they would lead to your being offended.

Just a side note, here.  I have never been raped.  I make no attempts to
pretend to understand the emotional scarring that occurs when someone is
raped.  That was not ever the basis for my analogy.

>Invoking other definitions simply obscures
>the issue. Anyone who thinks IG deliberatley wants to rip people off is, in
>my opinion, not thinking.
>
>Allen

Two questions here, Allen:

1.  If definitions obscure issues, why do we even bother having them?
2.  Where did I say that IG was deliberately trying to rip me off?

You may want to re-read my post.  I use a bit of sarcasm, but I never said
that IG is deliberately trying to rip people off.  If you will re-read my
post paying close attention to the facts I present, you will see that I was
thinking. Traveller has been a part of my life for quite some time, and I
wouldn't ditch it without some serious thinking.

>Okay, I've avoided making any comment for some very personal reasons.
>However not only women get raped and sexually abused and one of the
>reasons I play Traveller is to escape my 'unpleasant' RL past. Please stop
>this, it hurts.
>
>  Andrew etc.
>    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

Andrew, I apologize for having offended you.  As I asid before, I make no
attempts to pretend to understand the serious emotional side of rape.  I do
hope that you will accept my apology.  Also, as I said above, this will be
my last post on this.  I am also sorry for hurting you with anything I said,
as you can probably tell by now, that was never my intention.  If you would
let me, pleas eMail me privately and let me know how I can make it up to you.


I don't have the digests from the past few days, but I do remember a few
notes that I wanted to comment on.

To those who agreed with me and said so, thank you.  To those who have
defended what I said, thank you.  I will ask that everyone, offended and
supporters drop this off the list.  I will gladly correspond with anyone
privately about this, but it went beyond where I started it, and it is no
longer appropriate for the list.  I'll say it one last time, what I wrote
was commentary, if you don't like it, eMail me privately.  If you do, eMail
me privately, but...

DROP IT FROM THE LIST, IT HAS GROWN BEYOND COMMENTARY AND IT NEEDS TO GO OFF
LIST.

Now, one last thing...

Eamon, Yes, I have sold everything except one TNE main book and my T4 soft
cover.  Those two were too worn and tattered for me to sell with a good
conscience.  Lewis is now the keeper of the BARD Pages, and I will be a
freelancer for a while.  If something comes up and anyone needs thoughts on
the RCES era, I'll be more than happy to talk about it. :)

    Paul {tiger}
     tiger@goldinc.com
     http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 12:57:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Why I like Traveller & T4

Someone , Ken I believe, mentioned something about saying good things about 
Trav.  There are actualy many good things about trav IMNSHO.

1. Versitility.
Traveller was originaly designed to be versitile.  That is you could create 
any setting, any genre, anything!  Your universe was your universe.  I 
enjoyed making my own worlds and detailing them.  I never had any of the 
other sectors except the Marches until I got on the net.  Seeing what else 
was out there intreaged me tho so I got them.  Still most of the worlds I 
detailed myself.  When FF&S came out, that added a new level of versitility. 
 Now I could create technologies for my universe or adapt the curent stuff. 
 This game was very versitile in all its incarnations.

2. The Thrill of the Unknown.
The game had all these worlds, all these sectors, and the way we played was 
that the GM would make a world as we got to that area of space.  Nobody not 
even the GM knew what we would find there.  Then the bit about grandfather 
and the ancients came out, more mystery, more unknown and forgoten civs and 
techs.  In a recent and prolly the only game I have played in T4(mostly GM 
at home), I'm not saying which one but my fellow crewmates know what I mean, 
the adventure is all that and more.  Mystery after Mystery!

3. The Commraderie
This game has been around for a long time, 2 posibly 3 generations of gamers 
know about it and/or play on a regular basis.  that is a large family of 
fellow enthusiasts.  where else can people sit down and discuss how to build 
a ship, or an Empire?  Back when Marc created the game there was no 
internet, he had no idea that the community of gamers could be so huge 
untill a small fraction of them connected in the "etherial void".  No where 
else have I meet such good friends which have a common interest.  Even 
though I have never met them personaly, I still consider them part of the 
"Traveller Family"

Ghods!  there I go being romantic again!
Can't help it, I'm a noble, and speeches are our thang! :)

Commander X 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 08:53:05 -0700
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Rape

>Allen Shock wrote:
>
>>        If I were a woman, I'd be so highly offended at the comparison
>>between being dissatidfied with IG's products to being raped, I would
>>unsubscribe on the spot. This shows an appalling lack of sensitivity to an
>>issue far more important than any roleplaying game. I honestly feel an
>>apology is in order here.
>
><flame retardant suit on>

And Glenn Hoppe replied:

>
>I am slightly offended by your attitude. Personally, I would never
>qualify my feelings with a statement like "If I were a woman," I don't
>pretend to think like a woman, but I do like to think that if something
>were abhorrantly offensive to a woman, I, too, would be just as offended.
>
>I think if you feel strongly enough about the comparison, you *should*
>unsubscribe, or else refrain from hyperbole.
>
>Gawd knows there's enough hyperbole on this list already...
>
>
>BTW, I understand the point you're trying to make. I also understand the
>originator's analogy, and the point he was making. I'm sure his intent
>was not to belittle the physical and emotional damage wrought by rape. I
>also understand that there was a goodly amount of hyperbole in his
>comparison.

Let's not forget that men can be raped, too. Yes, statistically, they're a
small fraction of those who suffer from this abhorrent crime, but it does
happen, particularly in prison.

The term "rape" is often used as a metaphor for being grossly mistreated.
While somewhat too blunt a metaphor for my taste, it's usage is common
enough that I don't think it's worth getting too riled about.

Best,

Chris Griffen

===================================================
Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.

http://www.cris.com/~Cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml


- --------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                      Phone: (408) 527-7189
Cisco Systems, Inc.                      Fax:   (408) 527-0452
NMBU Technical Publications              cgriffen@cisco.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 12:34:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dedly@aol.com
Subject: Re: Stand Up, etc.

Maybe it's just me, Mr. Cynical, but I've made it a practice to not buy
anything unless I've had a chance to thoroughly investigate it. Don't take
this the wrong way Paul, Ken, & company. I agree with you. It's just that my
spending $ has always been limited so I try to plan ahead with my Trav
purchases through the years.  I spend a fair amount of time going through the
book trying to see if I can use it. The TML has been great for this. I get an
idea of what to expect when I'm in the area of the only Trav carrier.
Everytime I find that the TML majority is right.

I've only bought the first book so far. My campaign is late in the MT era and
neither I nor my players want to switch settings so certain books have no use
for me. I'll probably pick up EA and CSC. They're the best books so far and
they're not setting specific. I tend to focus on out-of-print stuff. I
participated in Paul's auction and won V&V. Yes, it was a sight unseen
purchase but since I'd heard nothing but praise about it I figured it would
be a safe buy.... and it was! =)

Product investigation prior to purchase would appear to be the only prudent
course of action until the IG track record becomes consistent.

\_/
DED

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:33:38 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: T4-Revised

> I entirely disagree with the first part.  The greater number of skill
> levels is one of the things I like *most* about T4 chargen. OTOH, I don't
> think skill levels over 6 should be allowed.  If you can have a 10+ in
> something it sort of devalues the experienced professional with a 3 or 4. 
> Also, the T4 experience system is *badly* broken.

You misunderstood what I said, and I think we are in agreement.

I like a character coming out of chargen with multiple skills, but, 
like what you have just stated above, I don't want character's 
comining out with any one of those skills at level 9 or greater.  In 
fact, I think you should rarely see a level 5 come out of chargen.

BUT,  a character with several, different skills (all with their 
skill level ranging from 1 to, say, 4-5) is something I do like about 
T4 chargen.

In CT, I always felt that the skill levels were appropriate, but 
characters came out of chargen with too few total skills.

Then Book 4:  Mercenary came along and introduced the one-year 
chargen method (where you roll each year).  I think this is also 
referred to as advanced chargen.

I thought that this created characters with a good mix between 
multiple skills while keeping a lid on the levels to those skills.

MT copied both these methods in the MTPM.  The usual 4-year method 
was used in the first part of the book, and characters came out too 
weak skill wise.  In the latter of the book, advanced chargen options 
were available for certain character classes.

The great thing about T4 chargen is that it produces 
characters--created with the 4-year method--that are on par with 
characters created with the one year advanced method.

Giving a character a skill for every year in T4 vs giving him one for 
every 4 years, as in CT, was a stroke of genius.

But, it works a little too good.  There needs to be some sort of 
control imposed.

I, personally, would like to see a roll applied each year to see if 
the character gets a skill that year.  This roll would be pretty easy 
to achieve success in, and I picture it akin to the skill roll in the 
CT/MT one-year advanced chargen systems.

Players would make this roll most of the time, but when they didn't, 
this would cut down on the skill levels awarded.

I also like Eris' comment that the skill lists used in chargen be 
expanded so that more skills are available, and the same skill does 
not keep poping up for the character.


> Also, In T4 chargen, characters can *never* gain more than 2-3 skill
> points a *year*.

I agree with this too.  See my comments on the experience system.  I 
said that the experience system should limit a character to advancing 
in skills and levels to about the same as he would in chargen.

2-3 skill points per year is fine with me, but this should only be 
allowed for a year of heavy adventuring where the character is 
exposed to much more experience than a normal professional just doing 
his job (who would probably only get one skill level in that year).

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:33:39 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: TML Helps Out!  (was FS data - what to do?)

> Well, I guess that most of us agree that the FS data, as presented by IG,
> is not overly useful.
> 
> But, why don't we have a shot at fixing it ourselves?  We've all got ideas
> on how it could be fixed...let's get together and _do_ something.  I'm more
> than willing to coordinate & contribute to an effort that might salvage
> something, caviet - IG copyright permitting...that'll have to be looked at.

Now, here's a great comment.  Let's just fix the damn thing 
ourselves.

Talk about no expense for IG!

What is left for IG to do?  See my other post on this where I suggest 
that the errata be printed with the office printer, copied on the 
office copier, and be available to anyone who sends in an SASE.

And, they'll need to make a flyer (again on the office printer using 
the office copier) to place in the other products coming out this 
year to advertise that errata is available for FS.

If the TML is willing to get behind this idea and work at getting 
"perfect" FS data, I can't see a reason why IG would turn it down.

We're talking virtually no expense!

Michael, I think you should take the ball and run with it.  The TML 
should get organized about this.  

Let's have team leaders in charge of a sector.  One person will be 
responsible for one subsector.  Michael is the overall project leader 
who will collect the data and coordinate the project.

I think first, we should make a list of all the important stuff that 
needs to be addressed--Vland's population and whatever else.

We should compare the data to the 1100 "official" data from DGP and 
whatever other sources are available to make sure the M0 data makes 
sense when compared to the 1100.

Somebody has suggested using the TNE rules for the deterioration of a 
planet's stats.  That might be a good idea.

When we get done, we have the list proof read this data with a fine 
tooth comb, and when we are absolutely sure we have created exactly 
what we want, we send it to IG with an "our compliments" tag.

Let's not just fix the big boo boos in FS--let's fix the the damn 
data.  Let's make sure that we are not going to find another problem 
later.

And, let's keep a handle on getting too "fix-crazy".  If the star 
system only needs its law level and government code change--otherwise 
the data entry is fine, let's just fix those two stats and move on.

We don't need to generate new data for the whole book--just police 
the data that's there.

I volunteer to be one of the sector leaders, to coordinate activities 
in one sector, and to work on one of the subsectors (in whatever 
sector I am assigned)  myself.

Who else is going to get behind this project?

Kenneth.

PS  I guess somebody should go to IG (or Marc) first to see if they 
will use the data that we generate and fix.  I don't see why we 
should go to all this trouble first--only to find that IG won't use 
it.

Michael may want to be the person that approaches IG on this, but if 
not, I can take care of it if I have the support of the rest of the 
list.



> 
> If anyone has any suggestions, comments, flames, whatever, email me at
> mickb@opera.iinet.net.au
> Michael Bailey (mickb@opera.iinet.net.au)
> 
> "You drive, I think there's something wrong with me."
> 		Hunter S. Thompson, 'Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas'
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:33:41 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Need help, please

> >Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com> wrote
> 
> >1)	One of my players received "Traveller's Aid Society" as a mustering-out
> >benefit from the Navy.  He wonders why he should ever work, since he can
> >sell a high passage every two months, giving him an excellent income.

From the replies, I'm actually surprised that this is a problem in so 
many games.  As a member of the TAS, a character is allowed one High 
Passage every two months.  This can usually be sold for 90% of its 
face value--Cr9,000.  That's only Cr4,500 for the character per 
month.

Is an additional Cr4,500 for a character per month that much of a 
game unballanceer?   I don't really think so, and this has never been 
a problem in my game.

You can make it easy on the character by allowing him to be able to 
cash in the HP right there at the TAS when he receives his passage.

TAS clerk:  "You are due for your high passage sir."

PC:  "Ah, thanks.  Listen, could I have that in cash?"

TAS clerk:  "Yes sir.  There's the standard 10% handling fee that 
applies.  Here's your 9000 credits.  Would you like cash, or would 
you like me to update your creditchit?"

But, if you think that the extra Cr4,500 is hurting your game, you 
can get a little harder on how the character obtains this money.

Here's how I handle it in my game.

First off, the characters need to go to a TAS office to receive the 
HP.  Those are located at class A and B starports.  If the characters 
don't happen to be on a world with a class A or B starport, then they 
are just going to have to wait until they get to one.

We're playing in the Aramis subsector of the Spinward Marches right 
now, and there are only 10 TAS offices in the entire subsector (class 
A or B starports).  They are spread out through the subsector, but 
there are definite areas that the players can go that makes obtaining 
the HP highly inconvienent.

Next, when my players get to the TAS offices, they receive their HPs 
(and any do them), but the TAS office does not cash them in like in 
the example I cited above. 

I figure that the TAS does not loose money on dispensing all those 
HPs to all it's members every other month.  They probably get them 
(or print them) for next to nothing, or trade them for some other 
service they perform.  Either way, I can see the TAS going out of 
business real quick if it gave Cr4,500 per month to all of its 
members--I don't care if it is MCr1 to get in the place.

(I also don't think that when some characters get the membership 
during chargen--say a Naval character, that the Navy actually pays 
MCr1 to get the character in.  I think that the fee is waved by the 
TAS by special arrangement for whatever reason with the Navy--I don't 
know, maybe the TAS allots so many memberships to various services 
each year for political reasons.)

So, since the character cannot immediately cash in the HP, that's 
exactly what he's got--a piece of paper allowing transport.

Many times this is useless to the character, and he wants to cash it 
in.  In my game, he needs to find a buyer to do this.

The standard rate is Cr9,000 for a high passage, but sometimes a 
character has to take what he can get--depending on how many buyers 
he finds and how bad they need it.  He might even get more for it.

This leads to all sorts of role playing situations, and I've even 
implemented patrons, rumors, and adventures through this interaction.

So, you see, the HP does not need to be a burden to you as a GM.  Get 
creative and make it work for you.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1342
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, May 19 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1343


(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Ken's SSDS Question
Re: Anti-Grav?
Re: Hmmmm....
Re: T4-revised
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1341
RE: FS fix is the right thing to do
Re: S/F Role playing games
The last Straw
5th Element ?
Re: Need help, please
RE: FS fix is the right thing to do
Re: Valentine's Rose (long)
Re: TML Helps Out!
[Off topic] Trying to contact John H Bogan Jr
Re: Valentine's Rose (long)
Re: Arcane gone?
Re: Robert and I rant about hard science
? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 71227,3057

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:43:00 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Ken's SSDS Question

> Yes Kenneth, you are thinking on the right lines.  As SSDS is based on FF&S 
> the ranges are indeed BL ranges.  At least that the way I figure it and use 
> for my campain.

Gotcha.  Does a person have to have seen BL to figure this out in 
Starships, or did I miss something in the text?

(If I didn't miss anything, I think IG should put in some 
clarification when they re-publish Starships.)

> Also, the numbers for the sensors are the actual ranges in 30,000km hexes 
> for the sensor package.  A3 P2 J0 would be Active range of 90,000km(short) 
> and Passive range of 60,000km(short).

Now, here's something I didn't know, and I'm really glad you told me.

Looks like there is something else that should go in the revised 
edition of Starships--a little clarification.

Thanks, Bill,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:49:44 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Anti-Grav?

On Fri, 16 May 1997, Michael Solomani Mifsud wrote:

> 
> Im curious, after seeing 5th element, I was wondering how would a society
> manage so many grav cars?
> 
> The only thing I can think of is that the anti-grav device also establishs
> a small buffer around the vehicle, so if a collision occurs, the two
> vehicles just "bounce" off each other.  Combine this with computer aided
> monitoring and warning system and you have an excellent safety record :)
> 
I would guess that millimeter wave radar and a central navigation
information network which fed the onboard computers of all craft and
provided required small course changes would do the trick.

I've also always liked the idea that a sufficiently powerful hacker, or
the government, could arrange 'tragic speeder accidents' ona  regular
basis.

Other possibilities; Specific lanes of operation and altitudes for your
direction of travel and class of vehicle, safety zones around buildings
and towers, underground tubeways for grave traffic [oops, I mean
grav...was that an interesting typo or what...I'll just leave it in.]    

In any case, I would usually assume computer controlled flight, and almost
require at least computer augmented/assisted flight.

By the way, Do people have an image of what most grav vehicles look like?
I would think the standard vehicle looks an awful lot like a Pontiac
transsport (without wheels, of course).  However, there have been grav
porches in campaigns I've run.

Pete   

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 10:25:07 +0000
From: suzd@goodnet.com
Subject: Re: Hmmmm....

>   Should I continue the fascination with a different twist?
>   Would the list be receptive to an adventure on this theme?

Personally, I'm receptive to adventures on any theme :-)  Post away!

Suz 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 12:25:46 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: T4-revised

On Mon, 19 May 1997, Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote:

> Hard Times. I think M0 should have something similar... and, in fact, IIRC,
> Jo Grant posted some time ago the ASCII version of such maps.

Just a clarification:  Joe Walsh posted the ascii maps.  The maps 
themselves were created by David Burden.  And when they were posted, they 
were specifically labelled as non-canon, as they had been dropped from M0 
after CORE had handed it over to the old IG.  Basically, don't treat them 
any differently than you would any other home-brewed Traveller system 
extension/background material...


- -Joe
Joseph E. Walsh  |  Game Designer for Marc Miller's Traveller
_________________|  Atari 1200XL and Apple IIGS User and Programmer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:49:10 -0600
From: Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1341

Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com> wrote

>3)	This one may be unanswerable.  Traveller has turned my players into gun
>nuts.  I've purposfully  allowed very few situations to arise where
>firepower is useful, but they're constantly looking for them and dreaming
>of ways to knock off low-tech governments.  It's getting old and infantile
>fast.  Any suggestions?

The best example of ways to control this type of situation are:
  The primitive society determines that the "visitors" are actually
 like them --  they bleed and die.  Cf: the book by Rudyard Kipling,
 _The Man Who Would be King_, also an excellent movie starring
 Sean Connery and Michael Caine.

Have an Imperial Edict that requires all trade to take place at no 
more than two tech levels above the world's current tech level.

Use customs agents to control the flow of tech level goods.

Begin to have the PCs become protectors of "their worlds" and find out
what it is like to maintain a fief-dom.  Yeah, make them _minor_ nobles 
with temporary titles that last only a year or two.  They have to visit 
each planet in their fiefdom at least once a year for at least two weeks.  
This can really tie them down and make them really appreciate their subjects.  
Of course if the become much like King John of England, the peasants could 
always revolt.  Fuzzy Wuzzie or Zulu syndrome strikes.

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 12:39:25 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: RE: FS fix is the right thing to do

> 	Having a list of LLs completely separate from the rest of the UPP is such 
> a monumental PITA I don't even want to think about it.

I agree.  We need the whole data on the erratta sheet.

> 	Printing out the entire UPPs would bankrupt IG. That would mean printing 
> out the ENTIRE FS book free of charge. In the past few weeks, as Campaign 
> Manager for a local Reform Party candidate in the Canadian election, I've 
> had a crash course in printing economics. You have no idea how expensive it 
> is - and we were just printing a 1 page brochure.

What?  You are making me laugh.

I'm picturing something like the Spinward Marches data in the back of 
the MT Imperial Encyclopedia.  The whole sector information is 
complete with hex #, UPP, Bases, Remarks, Data, and Star info--and 
all of this is done, two column, in 3 pages!

Print on the back of 1 page, and you get an entire sector in 2 pages.

What I'm talking about is generating correct FS data and entering it 
(by hand if you have to--a big job, but nothing that couldn't be 
done.) into a word processing or spreadsheet program there at the IG 
office.

Then, you print out one original copy and take it to some place like 
Kinko's or Office Depot.  I called, you can get 500 copies for $30.  
That's a printed--not copied, one sided 8.5 x 11 sheet for 6 cents a 
page.

Let's do the math:  There are 18 sectors in FS.  At 3 sheets per 
sector, each erratta packet would cost IG $3.24.  If we print on the 
back, our cost is reduced to $2.16 per packet.

With the quantity that IG will need (and if they go with a copy 
instead of a printed piece), they could cut the cost in half.

So, what you are talking about, in terms of cost to IG, is about $1 
per erratta packet.

And, I'll tell ya what.  If they do this, I'll even send them a buck 
to get the erratta sheet.

Now, come on.  IG can do this.  If this is going to break them, then 
they are too far down the hole anyway.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 10:52:40 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: S/F Role playing games

Glenn...yes, you met with the _Great Black Hole of Quality_...really good
stuff posted on the TML rarely gets more than a second glance as it is
siphoned off into hard disks across the world. Sometimes, you'll get a
message form someone saying 'Cool'....very rarely, you'll get comment on
the list about it. I think there's some inverse law at work here...the
worse the idea, the more comment it gets, so a 'blank stare' should
probably be taken as a compliment.

I know the feeling, I've had it happen to me. Once I got a comment about a
system for generating biowar plagues for TNE...about a year and a half
after it was posted. That was the total feedback I got from the list.

It might mean that FUDGE is of no interest, but I doubt it...I'm in a PBEM
right now where the GM (Eris Reddoch) is using a meld of FUDGE and
Traveller. I think you mentioned me as an occasional drum-beater for
fudge. (someone did, and since 99% of my Traveller mail ends in the
trashcan, I tend to forget who says what)  Someday I'll have unlimited
disk space and can save everything, but until then my mailbox tends to get
pruned with a chainsaw every day. 

If I ever get a new gaming group together, I'll probably use fudge, since
in the groups I've been in, we tend to cycle from game to game, giving
GM's time to come up with the next adventure, and a breathing space to
play themselves, abd using a single system like fudge or gurps is
ideal...it lets people easily slip from genre to genre without the hassle
of 'Oh hell is this task controlled by DEX of CON or Wild Acting ability
in THIS game'. 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 13:06:05 +0000
From: twolf@unix.tfs.net
Subject: The last Straw

> 
> I love it!  Burn, baby, burn! :)
> 
> Kenneth.
> 
Well that is the final straw.  I had subscribed to TML (Traveller 
Mailing List) to share ideas about my hobby; not to the KBL (Kenneth 
Bitch List) which now advocates the burning of book.  This has gone 
too far.  I cannot support any medium that would advocate such an 
act nor tolerate a person who would.  Kenneth, you should move to 
Germany the neo-nazis are recruiting.

For those of my friends that want to talk Traveller, you have my 
email or visit me on #Traveller.

This is Twolf, signing off.... 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 14:13:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: 5th Element ?

>><< >I haven't seen the movie yet, but does this by chance have anything
>>to do
>>>with "The Fifth Element"?
>>
>>Good question. I haven't seen it either. >>
>>
>>I think the 5th element is Life.
>
>
>I thought it was spam.  There certainly is enough of it out there..:)

The Fifth Element seems to be a good-looking woman wearing bits of adhesive
tape here and there...but I could be wrong, as I have yet to see the film
either. I can believe the rumors that the director came up with the basic
idea for the film when he was 16...women in skimpy clothing dominated _my_
thoughts at that age. Hmmm...now that you mention it, they still cross my
mind from time to time.

Loren Wiseman
      GDW Emeritus

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:15:30 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Need help, please

At 10:41 AM 5/18/97 +0000, Kevin Bearden wrote:
>
>> 1)	One of my players received "Traveller's Aid Society" as a mustering-out
>> benefit from the Navy.  He wonders why he should ever work, since he can
>> sell a high passage every two months, giving him an excellent income.
>
>You can sell the High Passages for 90% of their face value.  Cr9,000 
>is not an excellent income.  There are plenty of things that he is 
>going to have to buy.

I always used 80%, which means that the six passages they receive a year is
going to be something like 48KCr a year.  With your 90% rule, they would
get 54KCr/year.

This is very high living.  In a post a few months ago, I tried to work out
reasonable income levels for TL12 Sylea, or where ever the expenses for
food and lodging were determined, and got an average PCGPP of between 8KCr
and 15KCr.  If you wish, I can repost or send it to you directly.

This fit well with a 20 year pension being 10KCr, as this put pensioners in
middle or lower middle class on Sylea, and pretty high on the hog on a low
tech world outside.

Note that starship crews are very overpaid, as a good pilot can bring in
60KCr, well above the top tenth of a percent, assuming an income
distribution anywhere near the present day.

As Kevin points out, it is easy enough to get the character involved - most
people would want to take those high passages if they can.  I rule that TAS
actually is very good at finding two month "jobs" for travellers, like
guest lecturer at TAS, which covers food and lodging, and expedition scout,
so that TAS members always have lots of interesting times to talk about to
other TAS members.  This is why people fork over the million credits or so
to join, and why members are very protective of TAS.

In my games, being a TAS member is considered only just one step shy of
being noble, and it is not clear which side of the line it is on.  Of
course, that is because all of my players are explorer types, not stay at
homes.  TAS is structtured to make people better explorers, and more
cosmopolitan.  HEarkening back to the Templar thread, I have wondered if it
was not TAS that ended up dictating the structure of the eventual Imperium.

Scott

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:26:18 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: RE: FS fix is the right thing to do

At 12:39 PM 5/19/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Then, you print out one original copy and take it to some place like 
>Kinko's or Office Depot.  I called, you can get 500 copies for $30.  
>That's a printed--not copied, one sided 8.5 x 11 sheet for 6 cents a 
>page...
[ direct cost - $3.24]
[ two sided - $2.16 ]

>So, what you are talking about, in terms of cost to IG, is about $1 
>per erratta packet. And, I'll tell ya what.  If they do this, I'll even send 
>them a buck to get the erratta sheet.

I, as well, would be willing to pay a few bucks for fixed data, or a few
bucks as part of my JTAS subscription.  I even am willing to toss in the
extra dollar for mailing (big of me, no?).  I would be happier to get the
data in machine form on the web site, perhaps with a password on a zip or
stuffit file.

Of course, I would like the data in machine form REGARDLESS of whether they
fix it.

The key is that it is not that expensive to fix the data, as long as they
can still turn a profit on the original idea.  They should make money on
this data for all new purchasers of FS, I just think those of use who have
the old copy should not have to pay more than cost, and cost is pretty low
when you do not have to lay out a book.

But then, I also think the data is flawed, and needs work.  If they do not
agree with that fundamental idea, then we are going to disagree on the kind
of fix needed.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:43:14 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Valentine's Rose (long)

On Mon, 19 May 1997, Nick Munn wrote:
 
> As you can see, the tiny plant which I placed at my left elbow at the 
> start of this lecture is now quite a respectable bloom.

Neat! Sort of a Vilani 'Sadie Hawkins Day' The fast growing rose is a good
idea, although i'd be careful about transporting those things,
too...Imagine what would happen if they started growing  during jump...he
he he...especially the aphrodisiac ones...

TNS 10-032  The Free Trader Relentless came to a wobbly landing today at
Transvaal Down. The name on the ship was crudely painted out and the
Terran words 'Hunka Hunka Burnin' Love' were painted over.

	The crew did not come out when hailed, and a rescue mission by
Port emergency personell was described by a participant as finding: '..an
astonishing vision of debauchery. Now excuse me, I have to go back into
the ship...', stripping his clothes off as he went. Loud music blared from
the open hold, since identified as an ancient Terran 'rock' song,
"Addicted to Love" 

;-)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 22:29:34 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: TML Helps Out!

>From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
>I volunteer to be one of the sector leaders, to coordinate activities 
>in one sector, and to work on one of the subsectors (in whatever 
>sector I am assigned)  myself.
>
>Who else is going to get behind this project?

        I've already done some work into the suggested direction (to correct
FS) for Massilia sector. I posted the preliminary results some time ago.
Hereby, I volunteer to be "Massilia Sector Corrector", coordinator, or
whatever. I offer to work myself on the whole sector at a slow pace, or on
two subsectors at a quick one: Shiwonee and Shokee (the Geonee subsectors,
of course...)

Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 20:52:33 +0100
From: Liam McCauley <NerfHerder@Enterprise.net>
Subject: [Off topic] Trying to contact John H Bogan Jr

The subject says it all.  Sorry for wasting everyone else's time.  Move
along now... nothing to see here...

John,

Please email me with your email address.

Cheers,
Liam
- -- 
NerfHerder@Enterprise.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 20:28:26 +0100
From: Liam McCauley <NerfHerder@Enterprise.net>
Subject: Re: Valentine's Rose (long)

At 12:55 19/05/97 +0100, you wrote:
>Dr. Shaliin Ap, Dept. of Social Psychology, Imperial University of 
>Sylea, in a public lecture, 045-0010:
>
[snip]
> Most widely accepted 
>was the concept of Valentine's Day, held on 14 February (Terran) and 
>now on Day 45 of the Imperial Calendar.

[snipetty snip]

Nick,

I'll avoid embarrasing you by going on *too* much, but this was an
excellant post.

More!  More!

Cheers,
Liam
- -- 
NerfHerder@Enterprise.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 20:36:11 +0100
From: Liam McCauley <NerfHerder@Enterprise.net>
Subject: Re: Arcane gone?

At 15:53 18/05/97 +0100, you wrote:
>One of my fellow GMs (and one of my Trav players) who subscribes has just
>had a letter from arcane's (UK RPG/CCG mag) publishers saying it's about to
>be discontinued. Sad as they seemed to like T4 and it was actually quite a
>good read.
>

I'm afraid it's true; I got my letter yesterday :-(.  Arcane was the first
pro-magazine that I had subscribed too since... well, since White Dwarf was
good (am I showing my age now ;-)).

I think I'm correct in saying that Valkyrie is the only UK pro magazine
left now, and that only appears every 6 months or so.  Still, I have my
Tales of the Reaching Moon, and The Unspeakable Oath, (and JTAS if I read
more favourable reviews).

Cheers,
Liam
- -- 
NerfHerder@Enterprise.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 12:52:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Robert and I rant about hard science

> Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 18:44:08 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
> 
> > Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:39:31 -0700 (PDT)
> > From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
>  
> > Or rather, using less emotionally loaded terms [magic], Traveller propusion
> > systems use a small enough fraction of the total craft's mass that, as a
> > simplifying assumption, this change of mass is neglected in calculating
> > accelerations.  
> 
>    Sorry for the the use of the term magic, I hadn't really realised it
>    was emotionally loaded.  (I'm a D&D player since WAAAY back; I like
>    magic! 8^)

Well, heck, I devote not a little of my spare time to *teaching* Thelemic
Magick (with a 'k', just to throw off spell checkers -- pun intentional). 
But in a discussion of SF, 'magic' is often used to denote the soft end of
the scale.  Needless to say, everything is both relative and a matter of
opinion; but I would rate (say) Clarke and Varley and Niven/Pournelle at
the 'hard' end of the spectrum, with perhaps McCaffrey and Bradbury at the
'soft' end.  I am willing to call Traveller 'hard SF' if its degree of
hand-waving and internal consistency do not exceed those of the hard-SF
authors I cite above. 

> > Traveller maneuver drives aren't all that magical, either.  HEPlaR barely
> > strains my credulity -- I mean, yes, it's mind-bogglingly efficient, but
> > fusing hydrogen and spouting it out the stern is pretty straightforward
> > extrapolation.  
> 
>    Ahh, I wasn't specific enough in locating the part of the manuever
>    drive that radiates magic; sorry!  The magical part of the manuever
>    drive is the part that relates to the power plant.  Any HEPlaR drive
>    that can push a million-kg type-S scout courier is going to give out
>    scads of power.  How much?  Let's use the specific impulse you
>    mention below: 700 km/s.

Again, Isp is in *seconds*.  Also, my *exhaust velocity* below was 300
km/s, or 0.001c -- but close enough.  700 km/s was the ship's final
velocity after burning all its fuel.

>    For a million-kg scout courier with 2G
>    acceleration, a 700km/s HEPlar drive would yield 10^13 watts,
>    10 million megawatts.  For a ship with a 500 MW power plant (CT),
>    this is quite a power load (for CT, where manuever drives require
>    power) or quite a windfall (for T4, where HEPlaR yields power). 
>    There is a "play-balance" (as opposed to magical 8^) fudge factor in
>    conservation of momentum and energy of about 20,000.  Not to worry,
>    though!  With a little optimization, it's trivial to reduce this
>    fudge factor to a mere 1000 or so.

Sigh.  Yes, it's completely true, the power levels required for Trav ships
to maneuver per canon are entirely broken, utterly magical, completely out
of touch with reality if one holds to canonical power supply types and
outputs.

>    So "Hard Science Fiction (TM)" requires that our manuever drives be
>    much slower (contra canon) or that power in Trav be much easier to
>    come by than Striker, MT, and FFS state (contra canon), or that
>    reaction fuel requirements be MUCH higher than any rules I've seen
>    state (contra canon).  So we have to pick between "Hard Science
>    Fiction (TM)" and canon.  No contest for me really. 8^)

Almost makes me want to take a stab at explaining both low-power
high-accel drives *and* CG lifters in terms of "Doc" Smith's inertialess
drives.  Instead of removing *all* inertia, have it remove all but about
1%, and do the same for effective gravitational mass.  Voila, in one
stroke you've explained CG and made maneuver drive power levels more
reasonable.  Ghod only knows what you've broken in the process, of
course...

> > Jump drive is, frankly, pure magic...but do you reject any SF featuring
> > FTL as 'soft'? 
>  
>    Yikes!  I certainly  do not "reject" it!  But I don't call it hard, either.

So in your worldview no SF containing FTL travel can qualify as 'hard'?
Not criticizing!!  Just trying to pin down terminology.

>    Oops, sorry if I implied that GDW or DGP ever called Traveller
>    "hard".  Actually, I recall Marc Miller himself explicitly telling
>    me that Traveller manuever drives don't obey physics; he made no
>    apologies for that either.  Nor should he, IMHO.  But other people
>    seem to be under the impression that it is hard.  This impression is
>    erroneous, IMNSHO.

Trav isn't 'hard' in the absolute sense; I merely think it's harder than
most/all of the other SF RPGs ever produced, and hence must qualify as
'hard' in a relative sense. 

> > S is not the specific impulse, but rather the exhaust velocity.  Isp is
> > measured in seconds; a "Newton-second per kilogram" reduces to "meters per
> > second."  (Newton = kg m/s2, * s = kg m/s, / kg = m/s)
> 
>    Hmmm. According to my textbook, S is called the specific impulse. 
>    For non-relativistic rockets, like the one in my example, it is also
>    the exhaust speed relative to the rocket, as you correctly point out.

Every reference I can find defines Isp as having units of seconds; one
defines it as the number of seconds one pound of propellant can produce
one pound of thrust (gotta love those English units).  A better expression
would be:

   Isp = Thrust / (1G * Fuel mass consumption rate)

LOX/H2 has an Isp of around 800 sec; apparently HEPlaR drives run around 4
*million* seconds.  This is clearly one of those circumstances where one
needs a heavy construction crane to suspend one's disbelief. :)

>    Conclusion:  Traveller manuever drives are inconsistant with
>    (take your pick)
> 
>    1) Striker, MT, and FFS  (throw out some of the canon)
>    	or
>    2) Physics (bring in some of the magic)

I like it.  Reminds me of a good one I saw on sci.astro the other day --
"FTL, causality, relativity -- pick two."

>    As much as I've fooled around with option (1), I still /play/ using
>    option (2).  And I still have a really good time!

Which is the point, after all.  I think. :)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:44:01 -0400
From: 71227.3057@compuserve.com
Subject: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 71227,3057

Traveller-digest V1997 #1342
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Message-ID: <199705191602_MC2-16EC-B0B6@compuserve.com>

Traveller-digest        Monday, May 19 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1342

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Open fire at all canons!
RE: FS fix is the right thing to do
Re: Need help, please
Hmmmm....
Re: T4-revised
Re: Ships in Port?
Apology?  well, one at least.
Why I like Traveller & T4
Re: Rape
Re: Stand Up, etc.
Re: T4-Revised
TML Helps Out!  (was FS data - what to do?)
Re: Need help, please

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 12:59:29 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@orca.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Open fire at all canons!

>You don't really mean to say that any deviation from published details
>makes a game non-Traveller do you?  There *are* some people here that give
>me that impression.

I never got that impression at all. All the posts complaining about
non-Traveller canon specifically mentioned rules published by IG. I don't
recall anyone saying what individual players should be allowed to do. In
fact, every Traveller referee is a heretic; the rules and background have
changed so many times that practically any ruling one makes will contradict
something once published.

>Marc, Loren, nor Frank never dropped by to bless or damn my games. They
>never required an orthodoxy test when I laid my money down. They never
>threatened to take back their books if I didn't follow their rules.  ;->

No one ever made such an absurd claim. Really, this is a complete straw
man; the complaint was exclusively about IG's own books, not about the
people playing the game. The complaint is that IG publishes rules and
histories that contradict themselves. Now I have no complaint about
referees changing the rules themselves, I do it myself. I do have a
complaint when IG publishes books which state a TL 7 planet with a total
population of 100 fought the Sylean Federation to a standstill for over a
century and took several Sylean worlds. I have a complaint when IG
publishes books which state a comparatively tiny and inefficient
intestellar empire whose strategic advantage was Jump 3 but was not able to
hold a larger empire was nonetheless able to achieve TL 15 technology. I
have a complaint when IG publishes adventures with cloaking devices and FTL
radio. I have a complaint when IG publishes rules which make it unlikely a
starship would survive a single term. I have a complaint when IG publishes
books with starship components whose prices differ by an order of magnitude.

I do a lot of things in my campaign which aren't in the rule books. All I
ask is that when IG publishes a book it do enough background checks to
ensure I don't have to do significant damage control to use it. No one is
forcing anyone to use the rules as published. I would just like it to be
*possible* to use the rules as published.

What burns me is how simple it would have been to fix these problems if IG
had just bothered to actually proofread this stuff before publishing. It
would have been trivial to make Keshi a TL 12 high-population industrial
world. It would have been simple to make the TL 14 artifacts discoveries
from some unknown but contemporary civilization. It would have been easier
to reuse the MT misjump rules instead of creating new ones that make
interstellar commerce impossible. They could propose alternate game
universes with FTL radio using the Traveller rules. Instead, IG just
publishes without even bothering to check for consistency and then ignores
customers who complain. This, I have a complaint with.

- - --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

- ------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 10:25:23 -0500
From: "K.C. Komosky" <themoof@autobahn.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: FS fix is the right thing to do

Ken Bearden wrote:

>If you don't like the possible avenues that have been put forth for
>corrected data to reach the public (write ups in a couple of
>JTAS's--web page post), then how about a good, old fashioned, plain
>jane print out on 8.5x11 paper.
>
>This should cost very little.  (1) Produce corrected FS data.  (2)
>Compile this data on 8.5x11 pieces of paper--an erratta sheet.  (3)
>Have this info available for any who send in a SASE.  (4)  Use the IG
>copier to photocopy sheets of paper that advertise the fact that
>these FS erratta sheets are available free to any who send to IG to
>get them, and place this sheet with every new product that IG
>produces for the rest of the year.  (5)  Complete the FS/M0 hardback
>with the new info.
>
>Now, does that sound too costly for any company, no matter how small?
> I mean, we're talking about producing a flyer on the office printer,
>going to kinko's (or whereever) and having this copied, then placing
>this flyer in all future product packages for a while to get the word
>out.
>
>Customer pays postage with SASE.
>
>We're talking cheap, cheap, cheap.

	Here's why. You didn't specify wether the errate would just contain new 
LLs, or would contain entire UPPs, but both are disasters.

	Having a list of LLs completely separate from the rest of the UPP is such 
a monumental PITA I don't even want to think about it. Every single time 
you want to look up a world, you have to first look it up in FS, and then 
look up the LL on a cryptic errate sheet. I DON'T WANT TO DO THIS!

	Printing out the entire UPPs would bankrupt IG. That would mean printing 
out the ENTIRE FS book free of charge. In the past few weeks, as Campaign 
Manager for a local Reform Party candidate in the Canadian election, I've 
had a crash course in printing economics. You have no idea how expensive it 
is - and we were just printing a 1 page brochure.

K.C. Komosky
themoof@autobahn.mb.ca

- ------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 18:23:51 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: Need help, please

>From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
> 3)	This one may be unanswerable.  Traveller has turned my players into gun
> nuts.  I've purposfully  allowed very few situations to arise where
> firepower is useful, but they're constantly looking for them and dreaming
> of ways to knock off low-tech governments.  It's getting old and infantile
> fast.  Any suggestions?

        Apply ULTRA-REALISM: Kill one PC for each dead NPC, on average,
unless the combat has been so well-planned that they've spent half a session
role-playing before it. Even one PC per 4 NPCs may work.

>From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
>No, I'm not -that- bad a GM.  I can show them what a bad idea that would
>be.  They haven't tried, but that's mostly because they know, out of
>character, that I'd hate it.  These guys are constantly dreaming of ways to
>use Tech to kill things, which just seems infantile to me.

        A suggestion: Use the gimmick idea. Let them know there are some
REAL POWERFUL GUNS out there. VRF Portable Gauss Machineguns, Plasma
Machineguns, TL17-21 weapons, whatever. Just let them know, throw some
clues. Let them dream. And then, let them wander two dozen planets and burn
their neurons to figure out where those wonderful weapons are... let's them
make a lot of research and travel to find their desired weapons... Put some
powerful enemies after the same weapons, and let things grow more and mroe
dangerous. Kill half the PCs on the last adventure. And let them pick one of
the wonderful weapons, but with a caveat: ammunition is special and cannot
be produced below TL17, so they can only use it half a dozen of times. Or,
the TL21 badly damaged weapon has a 1/6 probability of doing very nasty
things with the PC every time it's used. Or, the weapon is so spectacular
that every time they use it without VERY careful planning, word spreads out
and the REALLY POWERFUL organization that also seeks the weapons starts
chasing them around. Let them worry a lot to maintain their gimmick.
        Your PCs will be more and more time thinking and planning, even if
one of their main concerns is still how to use hi-tech weapons.

Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"

- ------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 97 14:47:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Hmmmm....

  In an old Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society (GDW
  imprint), there was an article with adventure hooks that
  involved virally-induced porphyria, which, among its other
  symptoms, caused recession of the gums and a craving for
  iron-rich substances - most notably, human blood.

  The fascination with the legend of the Vampire is noted.

  In a different old JTAS (GDW), there was an article about a
  world (interestingly, named Porphyry) where the ruling class
  suffered from a rare hereditary form of anemia, and all
  citizens were required to donate blood to help the rulers
  survive.

  The fascination continues - with a twist.

  Just a few days ago (probably last Tuesday), in the NYTimes,
  there was an article about a rare disease called XERODERMA
  PIGMENTOSUM.  The most notable characteristic of this disease
  is that even miniscule amounts of exposure to UV can cause
  severe burns and skin cancer - the particular case that was
  the "centerpiece" or "impact study" for the article exhibited
  such reactions as bubbling skin on exposure to the sun, or
  even to many fluorescent lights.  The parents of this little
  girl have created a summer camp for afflicted children that
  operates on a "reversed" clock - work, play, and so on at
  night; sleep during the day.

  Should I continue the fascination with a different twist?
  Would the list be receptive to an adventure on this theme?


Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com

- ------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 18:39:02 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: T4-revised

>From: maverick@castlegate.net (Steve Brengard)
>1)	Maps.  A map of  Known Space really should be included.  It could =
>even include the boundaries of various milieux.

        Wasn't the new/old Milieu Zero Campaign going to include maps for
the expanding Imperium between year -30 and year 200?

        Maps of known space are a must for the Basic Rulebook, but they are
also a must for all background-oriented supplements. This was also an
important failure of M0. I really loved the abundance of maps in MT and the
graphical explanation of the fall of the Imperium in Rebellion Sourcebook /
Hard Times. I think M0 should have something similar... and, in fact, IIRC,
Jo Grant posted some time ago the ASCII version of such maps.

Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"


- ------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 10:42:20 -0600
From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Ships in Port?

>At 09:13 am 05/16/97 -0600, you wrote:
>
>>>I have tried using the unstuffit using LF conversions and no conversions.
>>>When I try and open it with or without updating links I get garbage. I am
>>>using Excel 97 for Winblows 95. Could you try save them as sylk files and
>>>send them to me uncompressed?
>>
>>I've absconded with copies of them and put them uncompresses into my
>>archive (http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/archive/spreadsheets/) -
>>I changed the naming of the files so my web server would know to specify
>>them as Excel spreadsheets, which might cause problems for them, but
>>they're pretty much ready to go. As I remember, it called "WBH" for macros,
>>which I renamed to "WBH.xls".
>
>	Joe, do you want updated (Excel95) copies in ZIP format to post as
>well?
>I'm not finding any time at all to keep my site up-to-date, although I hope
>that changes in a month or two.
>
>	BTW, Excel uses ".xlm" for macro sheets, I believe.

Yeah - sounds great!

 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 PGP Fingerprint: E3 3F DF 08 BE 3E 44 A0  EE A9 80 7E 22 99 CD DF
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

- ------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 10:35:01 -0500
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: Apology?  well, one at least.

Well, it seems that my comments have evoked deep emotions within people.
Both for and against my position.  It seems that my comments were read into
a little too deeply by some, and, it seems, I have offended some.

I just deleted something of an explanation and comments because I really
don't think that it is appropriate to the discussion on the list.  What I
have posted to the list was merely an expression of the way I felt by the
treatment I got from IG, a commentary if you will.

I do not in any way apologize for the way I feel.  I will gladly apologize
for offending anyone with what I said.  The way I feel will not change, nor
will what I have said change.

This will be my last post to the list on this matter.  Feel free to belittle
me and condem me to Hell (or an exotic atmosphere world if you are athiest)
for what I have done, but it will not change the way I feel.

>        If I were a woman, I'd be so highly offended at the comparison
>between being dissatidfied with IG's products to being raped, I would
>unsubscribe on the spot. This shows an appalling lack of sensitivity to an
>issue far more important than any roleplaying game. I honestly feel an
>apology is in order here.
>
>Allen Shock

Allen, First, If you were a woman, I might apologize to you, but since you
are not, I wont.  I am not insensitive to the seriousness of rape.  Do me a
favor, though, study a littly about analogy.  If you are interested, eMail
me and I will explain to you the two ways you have misinterpreted the
analogy I used.  I can see how easily they would lead to your being offended.

Just a side note, here.  I have never been raped.  I make no attempts to
pretend to understand the emotional scarring that occurs when someone is
raped.  That was not ever the basis for my analogy.

>Invoking other definitions simply obscures
>the issue. Anyone who thinks IG deliberatley wants to rip people off is, in
>my opinion, not thinking.
>
>Allen

Two questions here, Allen:

1.  If definitions obscure issues, why do we even bother having them?
2.  Where did I say that IG was deliberately trying to rip me off?

You may want to re-read my post.  I use a bit of sarcasm, but I never said
that IG is deliberately trying to rip people off.  If you will re-read my
post paying close attention to the facts I present, you will see that I was
thinking. Traveller has been a part of my life for quite some time, and I
wouldn't ditch it without some serious thinking.

>Okay, I've avoided making any comment for some very personal reasons.
>However not only women get raped and sexually abused and one of the
>reasons I play Traveller is to escape my 'unpleasant' RL past. Please stop
>this, it hurts.
>
>  Andrew etc.
>    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

Andrew, I apologize for having offended you.  As I asid before, I make no
attempts to pretend to understand the serious emotional side of rape.  I do
hope that you will accept my apology.  Also, as I said above, this will be
my last post on this.  I am also sorry for hurting you with anything I said,
as you can probably tell by now, that was never my intention.  If you would
let me, pleas eMail me privately and let me know how I can make it up to you.


I don't have the digests from the past few days, but I do remember a few
notes that I wanted to comment on.

To those who agreed with me and said so, thank you.  To those who have
defended what I said, thank you.  I will ask that everyone, offended and
supporters drop this off the list.  I will gladly correspond with anyone
privately about this, but it went beyond where I started it, and it is no
longer appropriate for the list.  I'll say it one last time, what I wrote
was commentary, if you don't like it, eMail me privately.  If you do, eMail
me privately, but...

DROP IT FROM THE LIST, IT HAS GROWN BEYOND COMMENTARY AND IT NEEDS TO GO OFF
LIST.

Now, one last thing...

Eamon, Yes, I have sold everything except one TNE main book and my T4 soft
cover.  Those two were too worn and tattered for me to sell with a good
conscience.  Lewis is now the keeper of the BARD Pages, and I will be a
freelancer for a while.  If something comes up and anyone needs thoughts on
the RCES era, I'll be more than happy to talk about it. :)

    Paul {tiger}
     tiger@goldinc.com
     http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

- ------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 12:57:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Why I like Traveller & T4

Someone , Ken I believe, mentioned something about saying good things about 
Trav.  There are actualy many good things about trav IMNSHO.

1. Versitility.
Traveller was originaly designed to be versitile.  That is you could create 
any setting, any genre, anything!  Your universe was your universe.  I 
enjoyed making my own worlds and detailing them.  I never had any of the 
other sectors except the Marches until I got on the net.  Seeing what else 
was out there intreaged me tho so I got them.  Still most of the worlds I 
detailed myself.  When FF&S came out, that added a new level of versitility. 
 Now I could create technologies for my universe or adapt the curent stuff. 
 This game was very versitile in all its incarnations.

2. The Thrill of the Unknown.
The game had all these worlds, all these sectors, and the way we played was 
that the GM would make a world as we got to that area of space.  Nobody not 
even the GM knew what we would find there.  Then the bit about grandfather 
and the ancients came out, more mystery, more unknown and forgoten civs and 
techs.  In a recent and prolly the only game I have played in T4(mostly GM 
at home), I'm not saying which one but my fellow crewmates know what I mean, 
the adventure is all that and more.  Mystery after Mystery!

3. The Commraderie
This game has been around for a long time, 2 posibly 3 generations of gamers 
know about it and/or play on a regular basis.  that is a large family of 
fellow enthusiasts.  where else can people sit down and discuss how to build 
a ship, or an Empire?  Back when Marc created the game there was no 
internet, he had no idea that the community of gamers could be so huge 
untill a small fraction of them connected in the "etherial void".  No where 
else have I meet such good friends which have a common interest.  Even 
though I have never met them personaly, I still consider them part of the 
"Traveller Family"

Ghods!  there I go being romantic again!
Can't help it, I'm a noble, and speeches are our thang! :)

Commander X 

- ------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 08:53:05 -0700
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Rape

>Allen Shock wrote:
>
>>        If I were a woman, I'd be so highly offended at the comparison
>>between being dissatidfied with IG's products to being raped, I would
>>unsubscribe on the spot. This shows an appalling lack of sensitivity to an
>>issue far more important than any roleplaying game. I honestly feel an
>>apology is in order here.
>
><flame retardant suit on>

And Glenn Hoppe replied:

>
>I am slightly offended by your attitude. Personally, I would never
>qualify my feelings with a statement like "If I were a woman," I don't
>pretend to think like a woman, but I do like to think that if something
>were abhorrantly offensive to a woman, I, too, would be just as offended.
>
>I think if you feel strongly enough about the comparison, you *should*
>unsubscribe, or else refrain from hyperbole.
>
>Gawd knows there's enough hyperbole on this list already...
>
>
>BTW, I understand the point you're trying to make. I also understand the
>originator's analogy, and the point he was making. I'm sure his intent
>was not to belittle the physical and emotional damage wrought by rape. I
>also understand that there was a goodly amount of hyperbole in his
>comparison.

Let's not forget that men can be raped, too. Yes, statistically, they're a
small fraction of those who suffer from this abhorrent crime, but it does
happen, particularly in prison.

The term "rape" is often used as a metaphor for being grossly mistreated.
While somewhat too blunt a metaphor for my taste, it's usage is common
enough that I don't think it's worth getting too riled about.

Best,

Chris Griffen

Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.

http://www.cris.com/~Cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml


Christopher Griffen                      Phone: (408) 527-7189
Cisco Systems, Inc.                      Fax:   (408) 527-0452
NMBU Technical Publications              cgriffen@cisco.com

- ------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 12:34:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dedly@aol.com
Subject: Re: Stand Up, etc.

Maybe it's just me, Mr. Cynical, but I've made it a practice to not buy
anything unless I've had a chance to thoroughly investigate it. Don't take
this the wrong way Paul, Ken, & company. I agree with you. It's just that my
spending $ has always been limited so I try to plan ahead with my Trav
purchases through the years.  I spend a fair amount of time going through the
book trying to see if I can use it. The TML has been great for this. I get an
idea of what to expect when I'm in the area of the only Trav carrier.
Everytime I find that the TML majority is right.

I've only bought the first book so far. My campaign is late in the MT era and
neither I nor my players want to switch settings so certain books have no use
for me. I'll probably pick up EA and CSC. They're the best books so far and
they're not setting specific. I tend to focus on out-of-print stuff. I
participated in Paul's auction and won V&V. Yes, it was a sight unseen
purchase but since I'd heard nothing but praise about it I figured it would
be a safe buy.... and it was! =)

Product investigation prior to purchase would appear to be the only prudent
course of action until the IG track record becomes consistent.

\_/
DED

- ------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:33:38 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: T4-Revised

> I entirely disagree with the first part.  The greater number of skill
> levels is one of the things I like *most* about T4 chargen. OTOH, I don't
> think skill levels over 6 should be allowed.  If you can have a 10+ in
> something it sort of devalues the experienced professional with a 3 or 4. 
> Also, the T4 experience system is *badly* broken.

You misunderstood what I said, and I think we are in agreement.

I like a character coming out of chargen with multiple skills, but, 
like what you have just stated above, I don't want character's 
comining out with any one of those skills at level 9 or greater.  In 
fact, I think you should rarely see a level 5 come out of chargen.

BUT,  a character with several, different skills (all with their 
skill level ranging from 1 to, say, 4-5) is something I do like about 
T4 chargen.

In CT, I always felt that the skill levels were appropriate, but 
characters came out of chargen with too few total skills.

Then Book 4:  Mercenary came along and introduced the one-year 
chargen method (where you roll each year).  I think this is also 
referred to as advanced chargen.

I thought that this created characters with a good mix between 
multiple skills while keeping a lid on the levels to those skills.

MT copied both these methods in the MTPM.  The usual 4-year method 
was used in the first part of the book, and characters came out too 
weak skill wise.  In the latter of the book, advanced chargen options 
were available for certain character classes.

The great thing about T4 chargen is that it produces 
characters--created with the 4-year method--that are on par with 
characters created with the one year advanced method.

Giving a character a skill for every year in T4 vs giving him one for 
every 4 years, as in CT, was a stroke of genius.

But, it works a little too good.  There needs to be some sort of 
control imposed.

I, personally, would like to see a roll applied each year to see if 
the character gets a skill that year.  This roll would be pretty easy 
to achieve success in, and I picture it akin to the skill roll in the 
CT/MT one-year advanced chargen systems.

Players would make this roll most of the time, but when they didn't, 
this would cut down on the skill levels awarded.

I also like Eris' comment that the skill lists used in chargen be 
expanded so that more skills are available, and the same skill does 
not keep poping up for the character.


> Also, In T4 chargen, characters can *never* gain more than 2-3 skill
> points a *year*.

I agree with this too.  See my comments on the experience system.  I 
said that the experience system should limit a character to advancing 
in skills and levels to about the same as he would in chargen.

2-3 skill points per year is fine with me, but this should only be 
allowed for a year of heavy adventuring where the character is 
exposed to much more experience than a normal professional just doing 
his job (who would probably only get one skill level in that year).

Kenneth.

- ------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:33:39 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: TML Helps Out!  (was FS data - what to do?)

> Well, I guess that most of us agree that the FS data, as presented by IG,
> is not overly useful.
> 
> But, why don't we have a shot at fixing it ourselves?  We've all got ideas
> on how it could be fixed...let's get together and _do_ something.  I'm more
> than willing to coordinate & contribute to an effort that might salvage
> something, caviet - IG copyright permitting...that'll have to be looked at.

Now, here's a great comment.  Let's just fix the damn thing 
ourselves.

Talk about no expense for IG!

What is left for IG to do?  See my other post on this where I suggest 
that the errata be printed with the office printer, copied on the 
office copier, and be available to anyone who sends in an SASE.

And, they'll need to make a flyer (again on the office printer using 
the office copier) to place in the other products coming out this 
year to advertise that errata is available for FS.

If the TML is willing to get behind this idea and work at getting 
"perfect" FS data, I can't see a reason why IG would turn it down.

We're talking virtually no expense!

Michael, I think you should take the ball and run with it.  The TML 
should get organized about this.  

Let's have team leaders in charge of a sector.  One person will be 
responsible for one subsector.  Michael is the overall project leader 
who will collect the data and coordinate the project.

I think first, we should make a list of all the important stuff that 
needs to be addressed--Vland's population and whatever else.

We should compare the data to the 1100 "official" data from DGP and 
whatever other sources are available to make sure the M0 data makes 
sense when compared to the 1100.

Somebody has suggested using the TNE rules for the deterioration of a 
planet's stats.  That might be a good idea.

When we get done, we have the list proof read this data with a fine 
tooth comb, and when we are absolutely sure we have created exactly 
what we want, we send it to IG with an "our compliments" tag.

Let's not just fix the big boo boos in FS--let's fix the the damn 
data.  Let's make sure that we are not going to find another problem 
later.

And, let's keep a handle on getting too "fix-crazy".  If the star 
system only needs its law level and government code change--otherwise 
the data entry is fine, let's just fix those two stats and move on.

We don't need to generate new data for the whole book--just police 
the data that's there.

I volunteer to be one of the sector leaders, to coordinate activities 
in one sector, and to work on one of the subsectors (in whatever 
sector I am assigned)  myself.

Who else is going to get behind this project?

Kenneth.

PS  I guess somebody should go to IG (or Marc) first to see if they 
will use the data that we generate and fix.  I don't see why we 
should go to all this trouble first--only to find that IG won't use 
it.

Michael may want to be the person that approaches IG on this, but if 
not, I can take care of it if I have the support of the rest of the 
list.



> If anyone has any suggestions, comments, flames, whatever, email me at
> mickb@opera.iinet.net.au
> Michael Bailey (mickb@opera.iinet.net.au)
> 
> "You drive, I think there's something wrong with me."
> 		Hunter S. Thompson, 'Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas'

- ------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:33:41 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Need help, please

> >Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com> wrote
> 
> >1)	One of my players received "Traveller's Aid Society" as a mustering-out
> >benefit from the Navy.  He wonders why he should ever work, since he can
> >sell a high passage every two months, giving him an excellent income.

From the replies, I'm actually surprised that this is a problem in so 
many games.  As a member of the TAS, a character is allowed one High 
Passage every two months.  This can usually be sold for 90% of its 
face value--Cr9,000.  That's only Cr4,500 for the character per 
month.

Is an additional Cr4,500 for a character per month that much of a 
game unballanceer?   I don't really think so, and this has never been 
a problem in my game.

You can make it easy on the character by allowing him to be able to 
cash in the HP right there at the TAS when he receives his passage.

TAS clerk:  "You are due for your high passage sir."

PC:  "Ah, thanks.  Listen, could I have that in cash?"

TAS clerk:  "Yes sir.  There's the standard 10% handling fee that 
applies.  Here's your 9000 credits.  Would you like cash, or would 
you like me to update your creditchit?"

But, if you think that the extra Cr4,500 is hurting your game, you 
can get a little harder on how the character obtains this money.

Here's how I handle it in my game.

First off, the characters need to go to a TAS office to receive the 
HP.  Those are located at class A and B starports.  If the characters 
don't happen to be on a world with a class A or B starport, then they 
are just going to have to wait until they get to one.

We're playing in the Aramis subsector of the Spinward Marches right 
now, and there are only 10 TAS offices in the entire subsector (class 
A or B starports).  They are spread out through the subsector, but 
there are definite areas that the players can go that makes obtaining 
the HP highly inconvienent.

Next, when my players get to the TAS offices, they receive their HPs 
(and any do them), but the TAS office does not cash them in like in 
the example I cited above. 

I figure that the TAS does not loose money on dispensing all those 
HPs to all it's members every other month.  They probably get them 
(or print them) for next to nothing, or trade them for some other 
service they perform.  Either way, I can see the TAS going out of 
business real quick if it gave Cr4,500 per month to all of its 
members--I don't care if it is MCr1 to get in the place.

(I also don't think that when some characters get the membership 
during chargen--say a Naval character, that the Navy actually pays 
MCr1 to get the character in.  I think that the fee is waved by the 
TAS by special arrangement for whatever reason with the Navy--I don't 
know, maybe the TAS allots so many memberships to various services 
each year for political reasons.)

So, since the character cannot immediately cash in the HP, that's 
exactly what he's got--a piece of paper allowing transport.

Many times this is useless to the character, and he wants to cash it 
in.  In my game, he needs to find a buyer to do this.

The standard rate is Cr9,000 for a high passage, but sometimes a 
character has to take what he can get--depending on how many buyers 
he finds and how bad they need it.  He might even get more for it.

This leads to all sorts of role playing situations, and I've even 
implemented patrons, rumors, and adventures through this interaction.

So, you see, the HP does not need to be a burden to you as a GM.  Get 
creative and make it work for you.

Kenneth.

- ------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1342
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, May 19 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1344



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: S/F Role playing games
Re: Relativistic manuever drives
TNE Notes for Vargr
Re: The last Straw
Re: Anti-Grav?
Alternative Character Generation
Is there a comprehensive list of subsectors?
Re: Ships in Port?
Re: Need help Please
Re: S/F Role playing games
Re: Ancients & Jump Drive
First Survey - Errors were there six months ago!!!
Re: Anti-Grav?
Re: The last Straw
RE: FS fix is the right thing to do
Re: Anti-Grav?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 13:22:56 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: S/F Role playing games

On 1997-05-18 06:47 thus spake Matthew Harelick:

>Unlike alot of players on the list, I do not use the Imerium for my 
>Universe but rather just use the rule set from classic and
>megatraveller. Since the quality of output from IG has been unstable 
>as of late I have since considered converting my Universe to a new 
>rule set, perhaps GURPS. 

Did you see the listings of websites on GURPS Traveller rules
and campaigns there were recently posted in the "CORPS" Thread?
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 13:14:11 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Relativistic manuever drives

Sun, 18 May 1997 17:36:32 -0400 (EDT), Robert Flammang
<FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
>   Yep, I do. The relativistic equation equivalent to v = at
>   is 
>
>   	v = c * sin( arctan(at/c) ),
>
>   which assumes constant acceleration, no flips at midpoint, etc.

Thanks.

>
>> Also, I take it you are assuming that accel. reamains
>> constant as the ship takes on relativistic mass (instead
>> of the force of thrust?)

>   I am not sure what you mean here, but let me tell you what I meant,
>   since I neglected to specify in my previous post.  I assume constant
>   acceleration A to be the G-forces that the crew would experience if
>   their inertial compensators broke down: ie, the ship's thrust divided
>   by its rest mass.  This definition of A is invariant regardless of
>   reference frame; it's the acceleration the ship /would have in a
>   frame where the ship is not moving relativistically/.

OK, that what I though.  Note: in an intertial reference frame
the ship will gain mass as it accelerates.  If the thrust
remains invarient, it's acceleration will decrease.  However,
it's not clear how the trust would or wouldn't change.  For
a reaction drive, the reaction mass will also increase
relativistically and, as long as the ship can push is
back at the same relativistic speed then acceleration
will be constant.  Reactionless drives are another ball
of wax alltogether.

Also, one should be careful using an accelerating ship as
a reference frame.  Only _interial_ reference frames are
equally valid and this is not an interial reference frame. 
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 16:37:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Subject: TNE Notes for Vargr

I've been meaning to post my notes on creating Vargr characters in TNE,
based on "Alien Module 3: Vargr" (GDW) and "Aliens Vol. 1: Vilani & Vargr"
(DGP).  I'd appreciate feedback.  

Franklin


FRANKLIN'S NOTES ON VARGR CHARACTERS IN "TRAVELLER: THE NEW ERA"

These are my notes on converting the rules in _Alien_Module_3:_Vargr_
(AM3:V) and _Aliens_Vol._1:_Vilani_&_Vargr_ (AV1:V&V) to TNE.  

ATTRIBUTES:

  STR  2D6-2
  AGL  2D6
  CON  2D6-2
  INT  2D6-1
  EDU  2D6-1
  PRS  2D6-1  (See below) 

  PSI  (As normal for the campaign)
  VCD  1D6  (See below) 

Personality (PRS): 

The sixth attribute in the UPP of a Vargr character is called
"Personality" (not "Charisma") so as to distinguish this attribute from
the new pseudo-attribute "Vargr Charisma/Dominance" (see below). 
Personality (PRS) is used in place of the usual attribute Charimsa (CHR)
in all ways.  All CHR-based skills are instead based on PRS for Vargr.  

Vargr Charimsa/Dominance (VCD): 

This pseudo-attribute replaces Social Standing (SOC) in all ways.  All
references to SOC instead refer to VCD for Vargr characters.  

  * VCD can be changed (increased and/or decrreased) as a result of career
    resolution: 

    - When making a Commission roll: 

      -- Succeeding by 2+ points gives +1 to VCD;
      -- Failing by 2+ points gives -1 to VCD.  

    - When making a Promotion roll:

      -- Succeeding by 2 or 3 points gives +1 to VCD;
      -- Succeeding by 4+ points gives +2 to VCD;
      -- Failing by 2 or 3 points gives -1 to VCD;
      -- Failing by 4+ points gives -2 to VCD.  

  * VCD can also change as a result of adventuring.  At the end of an
    adventure, when awarding XP, the player rolls a Difficult test of the
    Vargr character's Leadership skill *opposed* by the Vargr's current
    VCD:  

    - An Outstanding Success gives +1 to VCD; 
    - A (regular) Success or Failure does not change VCD; 
    - A Catastrophic Failure gives -1 to VCD.  

REENLISTMENT/CONTINUATION:

Vargr characters do *not* suffer the usual DM -2 when changing careers.
Instead, apply the number of points of VCD lost/gained within that term as
a DM penalty/bonus.  

SKILLS:

Luck (INT) - Determination: 

This skill functions as per GDW's _Dark_Conspiracy_ and/or the article in
a back issue of _Traveller_Chronicle_.  Consider this skill to be TNE's
version of Jack-of-all-Trades.  

Observation:

Remember that Vargr have better senses of smell and hearing than do
humans.  However, their sensitivity to color is not as acute as that of a
human (but they are not color-blind).  

Unarmed Martial Arts:

In my campaign, this skill has the three cascades Block (for blocks and
evades), Strike (for punching and kicking), and Throw (for throws and
grapples).  Vargr have an additional cascade for this skill, called
Infighting.  This cascade *must* be the primary cascade for Vargr.  It
covers the use of a Vargr's claws and teeth.  

DEFAULT SKILLS:

All Vargr have the default skills Leadership 0, Observation 0, and Unarmed
Martial Arts (Infighting) 0.  

CAREERS:

Vargr may chose any career listed in TNE, plus any new careers listed
below.  Any career from TNE that is listed below *must* be used as
modified herein.  

Loner (New): 
  Prerequisites: 
    INT 6+ or EDU 6+.  
    Homeworld TL = Early Stellar+.  
  First Term Skills: Bargain 1, Luck 1, Unarmed Martial Arts (Infighting) 
    1, Explore 1, Gun Combat 1, Space Vessel 1, Spacehand 1, Technician 1.  
  Subsequent Terms Skills: Charm, Determination, Economics, Explore, Gun 
    Combat, Interaction, Melee, Space Tech, Space Vessel, Spacehand, 
    Technician, Vehicle, Vice.  
  All Terms
  Special Adventure: 7+ fo Medical, Acrobat, Artisan, Crime, Engineer, 
    Explore, Gun Combat, Interaction, Melee, Physical Science, Spacehand, 
    Technician.  
  Promotion: 7+, DM +1 if INT 8+, DM +1 if EDU 8+, DM +1 if PRS 8+.  
  Contacts: One per term, any (non-Vargr on 8+).  
  Other Effects: 
    Use Streetwise asset instead of VCD for income.  
    3 ship DMs per term for a Scout/Courier.  

Manager (aka "Leader"): 
  Prerequisites: 
    VCD 6+.  
    Homeworld TL = Industrial+.  
  All else as per TNE.  

Medicine: 
  Doctors ("commissioned officers") roll for Promotion to determine
    changes, if any, to VCD.  
  All else as per TNE.  

Wealthy Traveller (aka "Aristocrat"): 
  Prerequisites: VCD 10+.  
  All else as per TNE.  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 14:50:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Douglas <douglas@*teleport.com>
Subject: Re: The last Straw

On Mon, 19 May 1997 twolf@unix.tfs.net wrote:

> > 
> > I love it!  Burn, baby, burn! :)
> > 
> > Kenneth.
> > 
> Well that is the final straw.  I had subscribed to TML (Traveller 
> Mailing List) to share ideas about my hobby; not to the KBL (Kenneth 
> Bitch List) which now advocates the burning of book.  This has gone 
> too far.  I cannot support any medium that would advocate such an 
> act nor tolerate a person who would.  Kenneth, you should move to 
> Germany the neo-nazis are recruiting.
> 
> For those of my friends that want to talk Traveller, you have my 
> email or visit me on #Traveller.
> 
> This is Twolf, signing off.... 
> 

While I tend to feel that Twolf has gone as far to one extreme as Ken may
be on the other, I AM distressed with the tone the list is taking.

I am not interested, and tend not to read, the tirades against IG.  I AM
interested, and try to participate (WINMAIL.DAT permitting!) in the
threads promoting ideas for campaigns, and fixes for the current rule set.

If what IG is doing so offends you, then promote something different.
This constant harrassment of the company reflects poorly on a _concept_
that I ENJOY, and share with others, in the form of Traveller.

It is easy to destroy, difficult to create.  If you can do a better job
(and prove it in the marketplace), then you will have said all you need to
say about this incarnation of Traveller.

- --------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
                                              -Merlin

douglas@teleport.com
http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas\

MCSE: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation, 
      Exchange Server, Basic Networking, TCP/IP
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 15:35:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Anti-Grav?

> Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:49:44 -0500 (CDT)
> From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
> 
> By the way, Do people have an image of what most grav vehicles look like?
> I would think the standard vehicle looks an awful lot like a Pontiac
> transsport (without wheels, of course).  However, there have been grav
> porches in campaigns I've run.

Now that's a pleasant image...ol' grandpa sittin' out in his rocker on the
porch, under the leaky shingle roof, a pitcher of lemonade on the table at
his side...as the whole thing zooms through the sky 3 kilometers over
Sylea at 600 kph.

For higher passenger capacity, you could move up to a grav veranda.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 17:47:58 -0500
From: "Joul, Christopher" <JOUC1@Aerial1.com>
Subject: Alternative Character Generation

There has been some discussion on the list for a alternative chracter
generation system to that used in T4 which is:-
a) Compatable with the experience system.
b) Does not result in overly skilled characters.

Here is my system - any comments?

Alternative Character Generation System

Fistly Characteristics are rolled in the usual way with an additional
characteristic - Memory.  Which I use isnstead of Education (I use
Education as more of a general Knowledge Skill). This fixes the problem
that the Education rewards are too frequent (IMHO).
Note any increase to INT can instead be taken to MEM.

Secondly the characters progress through the carreers in the normal
manner, but aquiring skills slightly differently.  Instead of the
character getting Skill levels in the skills, they obtain 'Generation
Points' in the skills, these are then used after mustering out to buy
the actual skill level, the cost is based on the following progression.
Level 1 - 1 generation point
Level 2 - 3 generation points
Level 3 - 6 generation points
Level 4 - 10 GP
Level 5 - 15 GP
Level 6 - 21 GP
A character will get 2 GP's in a skill if it is radomly rolled on the
skill tables or just 1GP if they choose the skill (characteristic
increases must be rolled).  Any GPs left assigned to skills but
insuficent to buy the next level are either ignored or can be used to
buy experience levels (if using KB 2.0).

Example
Jerry spends 2 terms in the Navy(I'm doing this from memory and might
not get the tables right) the and rolls, Pilot 4 Times, Navigation
Twice, J-O-T Once, and Handgun Once.
Using Normal Generaton He would be:-
Pilot 4, Navigation 2, JOT 1, and Handgun 1
Using my alternative he would be:-
Pilot 3 (GPs=8), Nav 2 (GPs=4), JOT 1 (GPs=2),Handgun 1 (GPs=2)

This reduces the number of skills a character gains during generation
greater than level 3, without reducing the number lower than level 3.
Which is a good balance IMO.  It also fits well with my experience
system (Which I posted a few weeks ago), which requires characters to
spend more points the higher their skill is.

I also allow characters 3 'Fate Points' in character generation, which
can be used to re-roll any unsatisfactory roll (including a
characteristic).

Any comments?

Chris.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 16:05:00 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Is there a comprehensive list of subsectors?

I am working on making my sector mapper smart enough to put neighboring
subsector names in for all known sectors of the Imperium, but this would
require having a list of them, I think.

Has anyone compiled such a thing?

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 97 17:10:27 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Ships in Port?

On 1997-05-15 20:38 thus spake Joseph Heck:

>They should be binary compatible... (have you seen Vehicle Factory at
>JumpSpace? Very nice use of Excelness)...

<Blush> Thanks! Can I use your testimonial? I can see it now:

4 out of 5 sophonts agree: The Traveller Vehicle Factory is *the tool* 
you need for all of your vehicle design needs! Get it now, at a 
substantial discount! Check our other satisfied customers:

"Very nice use of Excelness..."
...Joseph Heck, curator of the Missouri Archives

"Don't diss the J-man!"
...Kenneth Bearden, creator of KBv2.0

B^)

PS: I'd be interested to know whether the sucker works for Mac, and any 
other comments/criticisms...

===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 97 17:10:13 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Need help Please

On 1997-05-19 09:08 thus spake Bruce Johnson:

>> Could it be that you're remembering the Octagon Society, the "first major 
>> distressed spacefarer assitance operation to appear in the Spinward 
>> Marches." I that is so, then TAS must have entered the Marches sometime 
>> after the establishment of the Octagon society in 342.
>> 
>> The Octagon society was dissolved in 499, and its assets sold at auction.
>
>Bingo!!! That's exactly what I was remembering vaguely. Now where did you
>pull that quote from??

I pulled that quote from the MegaTraveller Imperial Encyclopedia, under 
the Library Data entry for "Octagon Society". Tim Smith has noted that 
the same quote appears in _Twilight's Peak_ (adventure 3).

===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 97 17:10:16 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: S/F Role playing games

On 1997-05-19 03:07 thus spake Eris Reddoch:

>There is a FUDGE mailing list out here in cyberspace, somewhere, where
>we could discuss FUDGING Traveller to our hearts content.  You
>interested?  

I downloaded a digest of the FUDGE list to see what the discussion was 
like, but I haven't yet had the time to take a look at it.

>Or we could do it here..might make an interesting change from what we've
>been kicking around.  CORE, GURPS, FUDGE, and Traveller..what a
>combination!  ;->

I think we should do it here, it seems more relevant to a Traveller 
discussion than a FUDGE one... barring a blackballing by the Orthodox 
Travellerites. ;-)

Right now, I'm pondering the application of FUDGE to combat. The system 
I'm working on is a fusion of FUDGE, Traveller, and CORPS.


===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 97 17:10:24 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Ancients & Jump Drive

On 1997-05-16 08:07 thus spake Ethan Henry:

>Anyways, based on evidence and hints in all the Alien modules, I'd
>say that it's more likely that Grandfather was the first and last being
>to independently discover jump drive. Also, everyone discovered jump-1
>but it took the Imperium (well, all 3 Imperia actually)  about, what,
>6,000 years to go from jump-1 to jump-6? Gee, maybe jump drive
>scientists don't know what the hell it is they're working with! In all
>likelyhood, they had to completely reverse-engineer the whole thing
>to make any progress on it at all... which could a serious amount
>of time and brainpower. Grandfather was smart enough that it wouldn't
>surprise me if it took thousands of humans thousands of years to
>figure out just _one_ of his inventions.

Yeah! What he said! :-P

I for one, also think its *obvious* that Jumpdrive technology isn't a 
regular technology easily stumbled upon by the progressive advance of 
industrial innovation.

Major races "assert" that they discovered the thing independently, and 
I'm sure most actually believe that fact. The origins of the thing could 
easily be lost in the annals of time, or history rewritten by those close 
to it, so that the following generations believe.

This is further proof of the relative "hardness" of Traveller. A 
technology so central and magical to interstellar society is not normally 
discovered in the regular course of history, is practically 
incomprehensible to even the most advanced and intelligent sophonts, and 
it takes *one* "mule" or genetic mutation with intelligence so completely 
off the scale to invent it.

I think the premise is great! Imagine, the Imperium and surrounds likely 
the only ones lucky enough *in the galaxy* to have spawned a mutant with 
enough intellegence to create the foundation of interstellar society!

To me, this is more beautiful and more easily reconcilable with our 
current view of physics than Warp Drive being a logical development of 
technological societies, and the Light-barrier as easily broken as the 
sound barrier...

===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 00:46:10 +0100
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: First Survey - Errors were there six months ago!!!

Hi,

	FIRST SURVEY - Gov=law level was evident last October!!!

	Apologies if this has been posted before...

	What follows is part of a posting submitted by MM six months ago. It was
an early draft of the data for First Survey. You will note that back in
October when this set of data was posted to TML that in _every case_ gov
level is equal to law level.

	I found this posting from my email archives - I keep everything I ever
receive. I also note that not one single person on the list at the time
noticed that gov and law were the same. However it was noted by someone on
the list that there was a high incidence of '44' in the gov and law level
positions in some systems' UWP, especially with planets that have zero
population as well.

	I have the full posting, if anyone wants me to post it to the list. The
following version is cut down for clarity's sake, and shows just the four
subsectors to spinward. I've deleted lots of stuff for this posting,
including players' data for all systems listed, i.e. UWP's containing
physical characteristics only.

	Btw, note how the physical characteristics of the draft data below seem to
match the data in First Survey, while the pop, gov and law levels differ
wildly in many instances.

	Also, another interesting point of note is that if you look at the
referee's data in First Survey, Sylea has a different law level number to
the gov level. It appears to be the only system that seems correct,
apparently. No, I tell a lie, Azimuth at 0202 in Core also has a different
law level to gov, so I guess that's two systems out of about 4,500 in there
that I can use...

	

- ---- posting follows ------------------------------------


From: FarFuture@aol.com
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 23:54:35 -0500
Subject: Blank vs. Non-Blank.

This is an advance look at what I am currently considering for Sector Data. I
invite your feedback.

Marc Miller

Specimen data for Vland Sector for inclusion in First Survey (circa Year 0)
(accompanies Sector Map).
Best viewed in Courier (monospaced font).

The Vland Sector				 		   		
Loc	Name	UWP	Remarks	Bases	GG	 Population 		Stellar Data
0101	Gan.	E256200-4	LoPop 	 	G	 480 	  	 F5 V G6 VI      
0102	Mindkhii.	E799044-4		 	 	 4 	  	 M3 V            
0104	Naadaes .	E332144-6	Po LoPop 	S	 	 19 	  	 A9 III K8 D     
0105	Nana .	E343744-6	Po 	 	G	 75,000,000 	  	 G8 IV G0 D      
0107	Gaanis  .	C656311-7	LoPop 	 	G	 8,500 	  	 M9 V            
0109	Nar .	C658233-3	LoPop 	 	G	 390 	  	 G1 V            
0110	Kamuun Nan.	C100544-9	Ni Va 	 	G	 390,000 	  	 M5 V            
0131	Ampiur .	D763000-7	Ba 	 	G	 8 	  	 M8 V            
0132	Kald	C250688-8	Ni Po De 	 	G	 2,500,000 	  	 M1 V M1 D       
0134	Lishaerka .	E66A044-4	Wa 	 	G	 7 	  	 F2 III          
0135	Riinshuurgishi.	C330599-8	Ni Po De 	 	G	 200,000 	  	 M4 III F9 V     
0137	Uudza  .	B9B3577-9	Ni Fl 	 	 	 120,000 	  	 M5 V F1 V       
0202	Guur .	C444000-6	Ba 	 	G	 9 	  	 F8 II K2 D      
0203	Inli  .	E1006AA-8	Na Ni Va 	 	 	 8,100,000 	  	 M3 V K6 V       
0205	Khankari	C885122-9	LoPop 	 	 	 88 	  	 M2 V            
0209	Niiegurk.	E746000-3	Ba 	 	G	 2 	  	 M2 V            
0210	Kii.	E576388-4	LoPop 	 	G	 3,900 	  	 M5 V            
0211	Gin.	A689100-9	LoPop 	 	 	 77 	  	 M2 VI M9 D      
0221	Lir.	D530344-7	Po De LoPop 	S	 	 6,000 	  	 M2 V            
0232	Emag.	D9C7655-3	Ni Fl 	S	G	 3,200,000 	  	 F7 III M2 V     
0234	Arshali .	A649000-B	Ba 	 	 	 3 	  	 M3 V M3 V       
0236	Kidza .	D120688-9	Na Ni Po De 	 	 	 1,500,000 	  	 M6 V            
0237	Arkauuk.	B327400-9	LoPop 	 	G	 67,000 	  	 G8 V            
0303	Uuszuumikhar.	C9B3311-9	LoPop Fl	 	 	 3,300 	  	 G7 V            
0306	Iriin Iima.	B585100-6	LoPop 	 	 	 25 	  	 M0 D K0 D       
0307	KAIIRIM .	D8D29AA-7	HiPop Fl	 	G	 9,300,000,000 	  	 M5 V M7 D       
0311	Gukiziuun .	B230477-C	Po De LoPop 	 	G	 95,000 	  	 M3 V G8 D       
0333	Kaash.	A454000-D	Ba 	 	 	 6 	  	 K3 V G0 D       
0335	Muma  .	D97A111-5	Wa LoPop 	 	 	 55 	  	 M1 V            
0336	Parsi	B989888-B	Ri 	 	G	 620,000,000 	  	 M9 III          
0338	Liipaa .	E468022-6		S	 	 9 	  	 M6 V K8 D       
0340	Khiish .	AAC5000-B	FlBa 	 	G	 7 	  	 M2 V            
0402	Rad  .	D240000-5	Po De Ba 	 	G	 6 	  	 F2 V K6 D       
0403	Dirimiidkush .	D438000-7	Ba 	 	 	 4 	  	 G2 V            
0404	Ardadduur .	B8A8200-B	LoPop 	 	G	 160 	  	 M3 V            
0408	Khani Iis .	C622033-A	Po 	 	 	 2 	  	 G1 V            
0422	AARAR.	B300944-C	Na Ind HiPop Va 	 	G	 1,100,000,000 	  	 M9 III K5 D
    
0430	Zanar Ma.	E677555-3	Ag Ni 	 	G	 960,000 	  	 G3 V            
0431	Answerin	C584788-B	Ag Ri 	 	 	 81,000,000 	  	 A7 II G0 V      
0434	Eruunir.	E000000-6	Ast Va Ba 	 	G	 7 	  	 K1 V            
0435	Maga Kar.	E100522-8	Ni Va 	S	G	 580,000 	  	 M4 V M5 D       
0436	Shaiishmuur.	C300044-9	Va 	 	 	 4 	  	 M7 V            
0437	Irap Uundga.	DA7A044-6	Wa 	 	G	 6 	  	 A8 V            
0502	Kuurmuu .	D859000-8	Ba 	 	G	 7 	  	 M0 V            
0506	Agkaa .	C524422-7	LoPop 	 	G	 21,000 	  	 K0 V M3 V       
0507	Pigir .	E352355-6	Po LoPop 	 	G	 1,700 	  	 K6 VI G9 D      
0508	Puush  .	B767200-9	LoPop 	 	G	 570 	  	 M5 V            
0530	Riiba Im .	B884211-A	LoPop 	 	G	 480 	  	 G2 V            
0531	Akar  .	E9AA333-6	Wa LoPop 	 	 	 6,400 	  	 F1 V            
0532	Miiis Ka .	C110122-8	LoPop 	 	G	 41 	  	 K6 V            
0533	Ges .	E668588-4	Ag Ni 	 	G	 380,000 	  	 M9 V M3 VI      
0534	Eshgi .	C657011-5		 	G	 5 	  	 M9 V            
0536	Uurku  .	B120788-B	Na Po De 	 	G	 88,000,000 	  	 M5 V K0 D       
0601	Mepvlarar .	C100433-8	LoPop Va 	 	G	 31,000 	  	 K5 V M0 V       
0605	Eggu Ar.	B526000-A	Ba 	 	G	 9 	  	 F8 V            
0610	Iiruurmi.	B200000-9	Va Ba 	 	G	 9 	  	 G7 V            
0619	Shier  .	B9B3777-9	Fl	 	G	 33,000,000 	  	 M3 V            
0622	Kuunma Kha.	E8B8344-3	LoPop Fl	 	G	 9,200 	  	 M8 D            
0630	Shiin.	E455044-3		 	G	 1 	  	 A3 III          
0631	Kim  .	B201533-A	Ni Ic Va 	 	 	 310,000 	  	 M1 V            
0633	Sikhiar .	E454466-6	LoPop 	 	 	 43,000 	  	 K1 VI           
0635	Iiner Agus.	D445200-9	LoPop 	 	G	 840 	  	 M5 V            
0637	Guugkaa  .	A240333-A	Po De LoPop 	 	 	 5,100 	  	 M0 V            
0639	Mig  .	C7C2477-9	LoPop Fl	 	G	 96,000 	  	 K9 V K2 V       
0640	Angi Kidan.	A67A000-B	Wa Ba 	 	 	 3 	  	 M2 V            
0701	Erer  .	C665000-5	Ba 	 	G	 9 	  	 G0 D M5 D       
0703	Mak  .	C797333-8	LoPop 	 	G	 9,300 	  	 M2 V            
0705	Iirvluum .	C727411-5	LoPop 	 	 	 33,000 	  	 M7 V            
0707	Nishga  .	E000000-6	Ast Va Ba 	 	 	 4 	  	 M4 V            
0708	VOSKHOD	B110A99-D	Na Ind HiPop 	 	G	 28,000,000,000 	  	 M1 V M0 D
      
0709	Idim  .	A565211-A	LoPop 	 	G	 580 	  	 M0 V G3 D       
0711	Arem .	D539000-8	Ba 	S	 	 8 	  	 M2 V M7 V       
0732	Shuushshii  .	E524222-4	LoPop 	 	G	 110 	  	 G4 II M2 D      
0734	Ziriish .	B301222-9	Ic LoPop Va 	 	 	 650 	  	 M2 V            
0737	Geluu .	C500455-7	LoPop Va 	 	G	 38,000 	  	 K5 V K3 V       
0738	Enguu  .	D110455-8	LoPop 	 	G	 75,000 	  	 M9 V            
0739	Mirge.	E454200-3	LoPop 	 	 	 200 	  	 M7 III          
0740	KIROV	B683ABB-9	HiPop 	 	 	 17,000,000,000 	  	 K5 V K4 VI      
0801	Nidshi Ikmuu.	E62A666-5	Ni Wa 	 	 	 2,800,000 	  	 M7 V            
0804	Kegirur	E76A899-5	Ri Wa 	 	G	 380,000,000 	  	 M0 V            
0806	Sharkaar Urin.	E88A044-6	Wa 	 	G	 2 	  	 F9 V K8 D M8 D  
0807	Gir  .	B254577-B	Ag Ni 	 	G	 940,000 	  	 A0 V            
0831	Munas Uug .	C472000-8	Ba 	 	 	 7 	  	 K6 V G4 V       
0832	Kherkii .	C140422-6	Po De LoPop 	 	G	 36,000 	  	 M2 V            
0833	Shuuvli  .	E487444-4	LoPop 	S	 	 67,000 	  	 M1 V            
0834	Dish.	C87A122-A	Wa LoPop 	 	G	 67 	  	 F6 V            
0835	Lidsi.	E000000-7	Ast Va Ba 	 	 	 2 	  	 M2 V M9 D       
0839	Shishku  .	B672000-8	Ba 	 	G	 3 	  	 G2 V            

	See ya...


Bruce E J Lewis - mailto:bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk
Telephone - 0956-506527

	From Barkingside, within the London home county of Essex, E N G L A N D

Spurs Ticket Info can be found at - http://web.ftech.net/~legend/fixtures.htm

	Tottenham Hotspur - "Everybody will be singing..."
	Paxton Road Stand - Block R, Row 14, Seat 58

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:17:30 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Anti-Grav?

On Mon, 19 May 1997, Peter  H. Brenton wrote:

[snip]
> By the way, Do people have an image of what most grav vehicles look like?
> I would think the standard vehicle looks an awful lot like a Pontiac
> transsport (without wheels, of course).  However, there have been grav
> porches in campaigns I've run.

Yes, I do. Very much how the 5fth element did it, old 50's and 60's styled
cars with perhaps something extra in design that gives it a "modern" look
(like extra smooth lines).  

Always prefered this view of the grav car over the bladerunner idea.

Peace,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


Dont be afraid to go out on a limb.
Thats where the fruit is.
Dennis waitley

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 17:01:14 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: The last Straw

On Mon, 19 May 1997, Douglas wrote: 
> 
> While I tend to feel that Twolf has gone as far to one extreme as Ken may
> be on the other, I AM distressed with the tone the list is taking.
> 

I add a heartfelt ME TOO! to that sentiment. Constructive criticism is one
thing, but when people start leaving the list over it we gotta get some
fire extinguishers in here, folks!

And on a happier note: HEY DOUG! No Winmail.dat, no MIME attachments!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 19:06:31 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: RE: FS fix is the right thing to do

> The key is that it is not that expensive to fix the data, as long as they
> can still turn a profit on the original idea.

They can make money on the original idea--they should re-print 
the corrected data in the already planned M0/FS hardback release.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 17:01:29 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Anti-Grav?

At 03:35 PM 5/19/97 -0700, Craig wrote:

>> By the way, Do people have an image of what most grav vehicles look like?
>> I would think the standard vehicle looks an awful lot like a Pontiac
>> transsport (without wheels, of course).  However, there have been grav
>> porches in campaigns I've run.
>
>Now that's a pleasant image...ol' grandpa sittin' out in his rocker on the
>porch, under the leaky shingle roof, a pitcher of lemonade on the table at
>his side...as the whole thing zooms through the sky 3 kilometers over
>Sylea at 600 kph.
>
>For higher passenger capacity, you could move up to a grav veranda.

ZOT!

Back to work!  You have THUDD ballots to mail!  You know, the *special*
ones we discussed.. (wink, wink)

NO, wait! this is going to the TML!  It was supposed to be priv......

MESSAGE SENT.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|   about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|   Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|     -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin" |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1344
***********************************

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unsubscribe traveller-digest

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, May 20 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1345



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: TML Helps Out!
Re: The last Straw
Re: Anyone going to BayCon?
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1340
Re: The last Straw
Re: First Survey - Errors were there six months ago!!!
Re: The last Straw
Re: The last Straw
Re: Ships in Port?
Re: FS fix is the right thing to do
Re: TML Helps Out!  (was FS data - what to do?)
Re: The last Straw
chrome rose
May THUDDD ballot
Re: The last Straw
Re: The last Straw
Re: TML Helps Out!  (was FS data - what to do?)
Re: The last Straw

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 19:06:30 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: TML Helps Out!

>         I've already done some work into the suggested direction (to correct
> FS) for Massilia sector. I posted the preliminary results some time ago.
> Hereby, I volunteer to be "Massilia Sector Corrector", coordinator, or
> whatever. I offer to work myself on the whole sector at a slow pace, or on
> two subsectors at a quick one: Shiwonee and Shokee (the Geonee subsectors,
> of course...)

Excellent.  Do we have any more volunteers?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 19:06:32 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: The last Straw

> > 
> > I love it!  Burn, baby, burn! :)
> > 
> > Kenneth.
> > 
> Well that is the final straw.  I had subscribed to TML (Traveller 
> Mailing List) to share ideas about my hobby; not to the KBL (Kenneth 
> Bitch List) which now advocates the burning of book.  This has gone 
> too far.  I cannot support any medium that would advocate such an 
> act nor tolerate a person who would.  Kenneth, you should move to 
> Germany the neo-nazis are recruiting.
> 
> For those of my friends that want to talk Traveller, you have my 
> email or visit me on #Traveller.
> 
> This is Twolf, signing off.... 


Twolf,

Can you see that little smiley face up there when you quoted me?  
When most people see that, they realize that they are reading a jest.

I thought what the original poster said was funny, and I made light 
of the situation.

It is too bad that you don't realize that.

If you want to go some where else with your Traveller talk, then that 
is your loss, because the TML is the best place around.

My initial reaction to your post was to say, "So what?  Go."

But, I'll tell you.  I don't really want you to go.  You are free to 
do whatever you like, of course, but you will be missing out on all 
of the great things that the TML has to offer.

I've got two more things to tell you--since you have a problem seeing 
it yourself.

One, I think that my position on IG is clear to everyone.  I want 
them to succeed, and I want Traveller to be the best SF RPG ever.

Yes, I'm starting to feel betrayed at some of the stuff I've seen out 
of IG, and I've been praying for somebody like the original DGP staff 
to be T4's Knight in Shining Armor.

But, I also haven't given up on them.  If you will notice, I've 
started two threads that focus on positive things about IG and T4.  
One is the "IG Positive Thread", the other is "T4-Revised".

And, I'm behind the FS fix thread in which I've called for members of 
this list to team together, fix the FS data, and send it in to 
IG--doing all of IG's work for them.

Now, ask yourself, are those the actions of a person who wants to 
see IG and T4 go down the tubes? 

Plainly, the answer is no.

This leads me to the second thing that I'll tell you--and I shouldn't 
have to.  If you don't like my, or anybody else's, post on this list, 
you can do one thing.

Let me clue you in--

DON'T READ IT.

When you see my name next to a post, just ignore the damn thing if it 
makes you so upset.

Sheesh.  You'd think you could figure that out on your own.

Now, if you want to get all bent out of shape and leave the list, 
then do so.  

But, I'm telling you now, I would even welcome you to stay--and 
that's what I'm doing.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 07:12:11 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: Re: Anyone going to BayCon?

Ugh, which bay area?  San Francisco, Tampa, Botany...?

- ----------
> From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
> To: traveller@NS.MPGN.COM
> Subject: Anyone going to BayCon?
> Date: Friday, May 09, 1997 11:56 AM
> 
> In the spirit of the Toronto TML thing, I wonder if any of the Bay area
> TMLers is going to be at BayCon this year?
> 
> --
> +-------------------------------------------------+
> |   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
> |      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
> |   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
> |         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
> |*************************************************|
> |  Q. What do you get when you cross a Unitarian  |
> |     with a Jehovah's Witness?                   |
> |  A. Someone who knocks on your door for no      |
> |     reason at all.                              |
> +-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 00:46:52 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1340

At 09:41 AM 5/19/97 +0000, you wrote:
>                                                                             
> (nothing sent??????)
>------------------------------
>
>End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1340
>***********************************
>
>To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:
>
>unsubscribe traveller-digest
>
>in the body of a message to "traveller-request@MPGN.COM".  If you want
>to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
>such as a local redistribution list, then append that address to the
>"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":
>
>subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net
>
>A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
>subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
>in the commands above with "traveller".
>
>Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
>

Um, first half looked ok; second half was entirely blank except for standard
trailer... Is problem on my ISP or in the list server?


Garry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 21:14:17 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: The last Straw

Twolf writes:

>> 
>> I love it!  Burn, baby, burn! :)
>> 
>> Kenneth.
>> 
>Well that is the final straw.  I had subscribed to TML (Traveller 
>Mailing List) to share ideas about my hobby; not to the KBL (Kenneth 
>Bitch List) which now advocates the burning of book.  This has gone 
>too far.  I cannot support any medium that would advocate such an 
>act nor tolerate a person who would.  Kenneth, you should move to 
>Germany the neo-nazis are recruiting.
>
>For those of my friends that want to talk Traveller, you have my 
>email or visit me on #Traveller.
>
>This is Twolf, signing off.... 

   For God sake, he was making a f*cking joke!

   Not that it matters, my impression is that Twolf was looking for an
excuse to take a powder.  Maybe he should change his name to 'Tpuppy'. 
In any event what he really needs is a good wet nurse, not a mature
audience.

   Just calling them like I see them...

Regards,

Harold
(Traveller Heretic, Politically Incorrect, and loving it)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 21:00:02 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: First Survey - Errors were there six months ago!!!

On Tue, 20 May 1997, Bruce E J Lewis wrote:

> 	FIRST SURVEY - Gov=law level was evident last October!!!
[snipped]

Interesting.  In the "Blank" vs. "No Blank" war of the time, that little 
detail was missed by every single one of us who were here at the time.  
Marc posted it for comment, and all we could do was fight over whether 
there should or shouldn't be blank worlds.  We fought over something 
that, in the end, was a miniscule issue as compared to the big picture of 
messed up data.  Very interesting.

And a telling point for those who say TML is ideal for playtesting.  
Apparently, we aren't very good at that, either.  As witness the current 
flamewar, we're far more likely to pick up one point and beat it to death 
than to do a careful analysis of the situation.  We let our pet projects 
and pet peeves get in the way of actually making sure things work.

Naturally, all of the above applies to me, too.  I was here back then, 
and I was posting my "pro-blank" messages as much as anyone - and of 
course I missed the LL/Gov problem as well.

Bruce, thanks for posting that little gem.  Very instructive.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh  |  Game Designer for Marc Miller's Traveller
_________________|  Atari 1200XL and Apple IIGS User and Programmer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 20:13:15 -0700 (MST)
From: Jerry Sanders <kalin@bambam.swlink.net>
Subject: Re: The last Straw

On Mon, 19 May 1997, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> > > 
> > > I love it!  Burn, baby, burn! :)
> > > 
> > > Kenneth.
> > > 
> > Well that is the final straw.  I had subscribed to TML (Traveller 
> > Mailing List) to share ideas about my hobby; not to the KBL (Kenneth 
> > Bitch List) which now advocates the burning of book.  This has gone 
> > too far.  I cannot support any medium that would advocate such an 
> > act nor tolerate a person who would.  Kenneth, you should move to 
> > Germany the neo-nazis are recruiting.
> > 
> > For those of my friends that want to talk Traveller, you have my 
> > email or visit me on #Traveller.
> > 
> > This is Twolf, signing off.... 
> 
> 
> Twolf,

I second Twolf - I thought this was the TML list, not the KBL...

Please Kenneth, finish up your bitching and let the list move on.

Paul

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 21:15:15 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: The last Straw

At 01:06 pm 05/19/97 +0000, you wrote:
>> 
>> I love it!  Burn, baby, burn! :)
>> 
>> Kenneth.
>> 
>Well that is the final straw.  I had subscribed to TML (Traveller 
>Mailing List) to share ideas about my hobby; not to the KBL (Kenneth 
>Bitch List) which now advocates the burning of book.  This has gone 
>too far.  I cannot support any medium that would advocate such an 
>act nor tolerate a person who would.  Kenneth, you should move to 
>Germany the neo-nazis are recruiting.
>
>For those of my friends that want to talk Traveller, you have my 
>email or visit me on #Traveller.
>
>This is Twolf, signing off.... 

	Man, who urinated in your Wheaties this morning? Humor seems to be going
up the wrong hole or something ... so long.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 21:08:53 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Ships in Port?

At 10:42 am 05/19/97 -0600, you wrote:
>>	Joe, do you want updated (Excel95) copies in ZIP format to post as
>>well?
>>I'm not finding any time at all to keep my site up-to-date, although I hope
>>that changes in a month or two.
>>
>>	BTW, Excel uses ".xlm" for macro sheets, I believe.
>
>Yeah - sounds great!
>
> joe                          (573) 882-2000

	The actual spreadsheets are in private email to Joe; look for them on his
site sometime soon. Incidentally, I'd like to publicly thank Steve Brengard
for taking the time to figure out why they wouldn't work in Excel95,
converting and consolidating them, and then emailing them back to me.
Muchos Gracias!
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 20:58:26 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: FS fix is the right thing to do

At 03:28 am 05/19/97 +0000, you wrote:
>If you don't like the possible avenues that have been put forth for 
>corrected data to reach the public (write ups in a couple of 
>JTAS's--web page post), then how about a good, old fashioned, plain 
>jane print out on 8.5x11 paper.
>
>This should cost very little.  (1) Produce corrected FS data.  (2) 
>Compile this data on 8.5x11 pieces of paper--an erratta sheet.  (3)  
>Have this info available for any who send in a SASE.  (4)  Use the IG 
>copier to photocopy sheets of paper that advertise the fact that 
>these FS erratta sheets are available free to any who send to IG to 
>get them, and place this sheet with every new product that IG 
>produces for the rest of the year.  (5)  Complete the FS/M0 hardback 
>with the new info.
>
>Now, does that sound too costly for any company, no matter how small? 
> I mean, we're talking about producing a flyer on the office printer, 
>going to kinko's (or whereever) and having this copied, then placing 
>this flyer in all future product packages for a while to get the word 
>out.
>
>Customer pays postage with SASE.
>
>We're talking cheap, cheap, cheap.
>
>Why wouldn't that work?

	Dunno. Worked fine for many other game companies ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 21:12:56 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: TML Helps Out!  (was FS data - what to do?)

At 11:33 am 05/19/97 +0000, you wrote:
>> Well, I guess that most of us agree that the FS data, as presented by IG,
>> is not overly useful.
>> 
>> But, why don't we have a shot at fixing it ourselves?  We've all got ideas
>> on how it could be fixed...let's get together and _do_ something.  I'm more
>> than willing to coordinate & contribute to an effort that might salvage
>> something, caviet - IG copyright permitting...that'll have to be looked at.
>
>Now, here's a great comment.  Let's just fix the damn thing 
>ourselves.
>
>Talk about no expense for IG!
>
>What is left for IG to do?  See my other post on this where I suggest 
>that the errata be printed with the office printer, copied on the 
>office copier, and be available to anyone who sends in an SASE.
>
>And, they'll need to make a flyer (again on the office printer using 
>the office copier) to place in the other products coming out this 
>year to advertise that errata is available for FS.
>
>If the TML is willing to get behind this idea and work at getting 
>"perfect" FS data, I can't see a reason why IG would turn it down.

	Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't somebody produce _good_ data already
(for M0, I think?) that got thrown out in favor of FS? Why redo work?
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 21:31:31 +0000
From: "Tim Reynolds" <tim@premier1.premier.net>
Subject: Re: The last Straw

Twolf writes:

>> 
>> I love it!  Burn, baby, burn! :)
>> 
>> Kenneth.
>> 
>Well that is the final straw.  I had subscribed to TML (Traveller
>Mailing List) to share ideas about my hobby; not to the KBL (Kenneth
>Bitch List) which now advocates the burning of book.  This has gone
>too far.  I cannot support any medium that would advocate such an act
>nor tolerate a person who would.  Kenneth, you should move to Germany
>the neo-nazis are recruiting.
>
>For those of my friends that want to talk Traveller, you have my
>email or visit me on #Traveller.
>
>This is Twolf, signing off.... 

   For God sake, he was making a f*cking joke!

   Not that it matters, my impression is that Twolf was looking for an
excuse to take a powder.  Maybe he should change his name to 'Tpuppy'.
In any event what he really needs is a good wet nurse, not a mature
audience.

   Just calling them like I see them...

Regards,

Harold
(Traveller Heretic, Politically Incorrect, and loving it)



Ok, as you all know by now Twolf is a friend of mine.
I was not happy with what he did but I talked to him 
and explained his reasons and I have accepted them
as I accept him as a friend.

Now for the rest of you  fools its one thing to decided to leave an 
argument because you cant take the stupid  people and dont want to 
argue any more.  But its  coward  that  hits  somebody 
after they have left.  If you were a true man harold you would have 
said this before he left to his face. I am  pretty sure you would learn 
why he is called Twolf.  If you want to know I think that his 
actions made him more mature then any of us.  He has moved away from 
you worthless people.  

I would do the same but I dont turn my back on known scum 

Just calling them as I know them

I apologize  to the rest of the members of the TML for my actions, but 
I cant let this go.  I will no longer post on this subject.  If some 
of you want a fight my email is attached and I ll reply to those
email  sent to that address.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 13:13:41 -0800
From: Evyn gutierrez <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: chrome rose

Michael Solomani Mifsud Qouting

>On Mon, 19 May 1997, Peter  H. Brenton wrote:

[snip]
>> By the way, Do people have an image of what most grav vehicles look >>like?
>> I would think the standard vehicle looks an awful lot like a Pontiac
>> transsport (without wheels, of course).  However, there have been >>grav
>> porches in campaigns I've run.

>Yes, I do. Very much how the 5fth element did it, old 50's and 60's >styled cars with perhaps something extra in design that gives it a >"modern" look (like extra smooth lines).  

>Always prefered this view of the grav car over the bladerunner idea.

>Peace,

>michl


Dudes, welcome to the Tailfins. The Tailfins is an exclusive club
founded during the rule of man, the main aim of the club is the 
promotion of terran Car culture of something known as the 50s.
Chrome, gold flec paint and a devotion to the king are also
major aspects of the Club. Another custom is the Car show and
cruise held quarterly on many resort planets with sizable local
chapters. In days gone by entry to these events was limited to
ground cars only, but with the passing of time, the definition
of Classic applies to any vehicle 30 years or older. The only
qaulifcation now is the vehicle must be vagly car or bike shaped.
One may recognize a member by his clasic hairdo Known as a DA
for arcane reason, or hers which is dye some bright colour and
teased up and called Bufont. Both male and female members wear
bright satin jackets with their local chapter logo.

Note, there was some speculation the the Tailfins were a front
for Solomani Intelligence during Solomani rim war. These were
just rumors thou..

Evyn

Rember rock'n roll never forgets..

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:17:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: May THUDDD ballot

Here it is!  We have eleven entrants this time, and quite a range of
design approaches.  The voting system works the same as last month -- for
each design, assign a numerical score in the range 1-10 for each of the
five categories, with 1 being "Superb!" and 10 being "Horrible!".  You may
not vote on your own design.  Just fill out the form below and mail it to
me (cberry@cinenet.net).

Voting closes at midnight PDT May 25; I'll tabulate the scores and
announce the winners by May 27.

"But...where are the designs?" I hear you ask.  Ah.  Well, as per my
earlier announcements, they are on the web at:

  http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/thuddd4.html

They'll also be posted to the TML and ISBA mailing lists some time
tomorrow, once I finish slicing the 96k of entry text into manageable
pieces.

So, here's the ballot:

=========================================
  Recollet-class Exploratory Trader (SSDS Beta .pdf)
  Famille Spofulam Yards, Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

     OVERALL DESIGN          - 
     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 
     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 
     EFFICIENCY              -
     UNUSUALNESS             -

=========================================
  Encounter Class Exploratory Trader (SSDS)
  Long Yards, John Long <jlong@wilmington.net>

     OVERALL DESIGN          - 
     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 
     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 
     EFFICIENCY              -
     UNUSUALNESS             -

=========================================
  Anderson class exploratory trader (QSDS 1.5)
  Imperial Shipping, Nick Munn <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>

     OVERALL DESIGN          - 
     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 
     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 
     EFFICIENCY              -
     UNUSUALNESS             -

=========================================
  Elisabeth Class Frontier Trader (QSDS 1.5 plus Huge Table of Hulls)
  X-TEK, Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>

     OVERALL DESIGN          - 
     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 
     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 
     EFFICIENCY              -
     UNUSUALNESS             -

=========================================
  Ming Class 2000-ton Exploratory Trader (QSDS, FFS, Big Hulls)
  Quiptech, Inc., Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>

     OVERALL DESIGN          - 
     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 
     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 
     EFFICIENCY              -
     UNUSUALNESS             -

=========================================
  Cristobal Colon Class Exploratory Cruiser, Mercantile (QSDS plus Huge Table of Hulls)
  Aurelian Industries, Steven T. Charlton <scharlto@ifsna.com>

     OVERALL DESIGN          - 
     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 
     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 
     EFFICIENCY              -
     UNUSUALNESS             -

=========================================
  Knarr Class Exploratory Trader (SSDS)
  Sefreth  Shipyards Ltd., Chris Pearsall <crisp@mail1.halcyon.com>

     OVERALL DESIGN          - 
     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 
     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 
     EFFICIENCY              -
     UNUSUALNESS             -

=========================================
  Nuphraitelle class exploratory merchant (SSDS)
  Starwerx Orbital Foundry, Jeff Cornish <jeffreyc@sprynet.com>

     OVERALL DESIGN          - 
     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 
     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 
     EFFICIENCY              -
     UNUSUALNESS             -

=========================================
  Monte Cristo Class Exploratory Merchant (SSDS)
  Morell Shipyards Corporation LIC, Brian A. Howard <bruadh@southwest.net>

     OVERALL DESIGN          - 
     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 
     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 
     EFFICIENCY              -
     UNUSUALNESS             -

=========================================
  Terrapin Exploratory Merchant Cruiser (SSDS/FFS)
  Gridlore Technologies, Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>

     OVERALL DESIGN          - 
     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 
     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 
     EFFICIENCY              -
     UNUSUALNESS             -

=========================================
  Type 1108 - Exploratory Trader (QSDS 1.5, BBoH)
  Generica Starships, Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>

     OVERALL DESIGN          - 
     USABILITY IN A GAME     - 
     CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS - 
     EFFICIENCY              -
     UNUSUALNESS             -

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 01:28:19 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: The last Straw

> I second Twolf - I thought this was the TML list, not the KBL...

First it was KBv2.0, and now it's the KBL!

I think I'm starting to like it!  :)

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 01:28:21 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: The last Straw

  But its  coward  that  hits  somebody 
> after they have left.  If you were a true man harold you would have 
> said this before he left to his face.

Well, Tim, it was pretty hard for Harold, myself, and the others who 
replied to Tpussy's post when he shouted and then turned tail and 
ran.

 I am  pretty sure you would learn 
> why he is called Twolf.

Oh, is that what he calls himself!  Does he look like a Vargr in real 
life?

  If you want to know I think that his 
> actions made him more mature then any of us.

Oh, yea, I can see that.  Good point to bring up.

(maybe we ought to have a talk about selling yourself better)

Kenneth.
    --but you can call me THyena, because I'm laughing my butt off.

PS  Welcome to the KBL, bud!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 01:28:18 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: TML Helps Out!  (was FS data - what to do?)

> 	Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't somebody produce _good_ data already
> (for M0, I think?) that got thrown out in favor of FS? Why redo work?

Heck, if somebody has already redone all 18 sectors of FS, then speak 
up.  We need to evaluate it.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 01:28:21 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: The last Straw

> Now for the rest of you  fools (snip)

>  because you cant take the stupid  people (snip)

>  But its  coward  that  hits  somebody after they have left.  (snip)

>  If you were a true man harold you would have 
> said this before he left to his face.

 I am  pretty sure you would learn 
> why he is called Twolf. 

>  He has moved away from 
> you worthless people.  
> 
> I would do the same but I dont turn my back on known scum

Is this guy for real?  I am getting a total kick out of these two!

Watch out, Harold!  I think we've got a serial killer in the house!

Kenneth.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1345
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, May 20 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1346



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

More THUDDD notes
Re: First Survey - Errors were there six months ago!!!
Re: The last Straw
RE: The last Straw
Re: TAS (was Re: Need help, please)
Confusion at FTL??
Re: TML Helps Out!  (was FS data - what to do?)
Valentine's Rose (long)
a senior citizen organization (was: T4-Revised: CharGen)
Re: ANCIENT Grandfather
Re: ANCIENT Grandfather
Re: hard science
Well I hate to interject...
Re: Ancients & Jump Drive
Re: ANCIENT Grandfather
Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth
Re: ANCIENT Grandfather
Re: S/F Role playing games
Re: The last Straw
Re: [T97#1332] {VERY LONG} MM, IG, Traveller, and We (was: 
Re: FS fix is the right thing to do

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:25:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: More THUDDD notes

Most of my work on the May THUDDD involved cleaning up the truly awful
formatting on some of the entries.  I went ahead and did it in the most
critical places this time, but I *won't* do it in June -- it's just far
too labor-intensive.  Hence, the following new THUDDD rule, soon to appear
on the main THUDDD page: 

* Formatting of entries is the responsibility of entry authors.  The
  THUDDD coordinator will take reasonable steps such as turning section
  headings into HTML headers, making embedded URLs into functional links,
  and so forth; but nothing beyond this is guaranteed.  Most notably,
  tabular and other monospace-font text should be formatted using
  *spaces only* (not tabs!), and be ready to use 'as is' in the entry
  submission message.  Also, no line of text should exceed 150 characters
  in length; longer lines may get truncated, and no repair efforts are
  guaranteed if this occurs.

As I did not make this clear for the May THUDDD, and some of the entries
got a bit weirdly formatted as a result, I'm willing to accept and place
on the website corrected tabular data from any author who wants to provide
it.  I will not resend this to the lists, however.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 01:28:20 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: First Survey - Errors were there six months ago!!!

> Interesting.  In the "Blank" vs. "No Blank" war of the time, that little 
> detail was missed by every single one of us who were here at the time.  
> Marc posted it for comment, and all we could do was fight over whether 
> there should or shouldn't be blank worlds.  We fought over something 
> that, in the end, was a miniscule issue as compared to the big picture of 
> messed up data.  Very interesting.
> 
> And a telling point for those who say TML is ideal for playtesting.  
> Apparently, we aren't very good at that, either.  As witness the current 
> flamewar, we're far more likely to pick up one point and beat it to death 
> than to do a careful analysis of the situation.  We let our pet projects 
> and pet peeves get in the way of actually making sure things work.

Joe, with all due respect (and I mean that), you are making it sound 
like it is our fault for the FS debacle.

It's not.  It would have been great if someone would have caught 
it, but they didn't.  I, personally, didn't even look at the data 
that hard when it was posted.  The reason?  I had trust that 
something Marc Miller did himself was going to be pretty good.

And, I can't agree that the blank vs. non-blank debate was not 
worthwhile.  At that time, I argued for complete referee maps in FS.

Have you seen how many people now wish that FS did have complete maps 
for the referee--with starports, bases, gas giants, and all the 
important information we Traveller players are used to getting at a 
glance without having to look up a hex number in a table?

I understand Marc's use of the blank maps, but I just think he went 
about it wrong.  He should have included complete maps in FS for the 
referee and one blank map for the referee to photocopy for his 
players.

That way, refs would have been able to implement Marc's "M0 
discovery" idea by placing a little information on the blank map by 
hand as they wanted to--and still, they would have the more useful 
maps for their disposal.

So, in sum, I'm saying that I too am sorry that nobody caught the 
LL-GG mistake, but I can't feel bad about that because it was not our 
job.  IG has the ultimate responsibility in that department.

And, I don't think you've been fair in saying that the blank vs 
non-blank debate was a miniscule issue when, if more of the non-blank 
arguments were used in FS, more people would have been happier 
with the  the product.

Definitely, more complete maps would have helped 
(but not entirely fix, of course) the product's quality.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:42:11 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: The last Straw

>Now for the rest of you  fools its one thing to decided to leave an
>argument because you cant take the stupid  people and dont want to
>argue any more.  But its  coward  that  hits  somebody
>after they have left.

You mean like "I cannot support any medium that would advocate such an act
nor tolerate a person who would.  Kenneth, you should move to Germany
the neo-nazis are recruiting."

This is just plain crap, and I lost pretty much all of the respect for
twolf that his more reasoned posts had engendered.  Comparing someone to a
Nazi is not far from comparing them to a muurderer.  Good move, asshole.
(I am usually more polite, but Nazi comparisons to me are like rape
comparisons are to another poster here.)

Perhaps, if you wanted to be considered an adult, you might have stayed
around to hear the reponse to your infantile "I am not listening, and you
are all just dumb" leavetaking.  But then, as you have said, you have
unsubscribed, and will not see it.  Pity.

Oh, I must quote: "If you were a true man harold you would have
said this before he left to his face."

Kind of hard when someone says "You are neo-nazi's, and I am not listening
anymore."

Remember, you are known as much be your friends as by yourself.

Scott, kind of pissed.

- -------
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu.  http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz/
"You die, she dies, EVERYbody dies" - Heavy Metal
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment results" -
Calvin Coolidge, attrib. by Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:41:00 -0700
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: The last Straw

Alas, sent from work via TELNET and PINE.  

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Douglas R Glatz
PDG Computer Services

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
HTTP://www.teleport.com/~douglas/

Never anger a dragon, for they have found we are crunchy and go well with Brie...
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


- ----------
From: 	Bruce Johnson[SMTP:johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU]
Sent: 	Monday, May 19, 1997 5:01 PM
To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	Re: The last Straw

On Mon, 19 May 1997, Douglas wrote: 
> 
> While I tend to feel that Twolf has gone as far to one extreme as Ken may
> be on the other, I AM distressed with the tone the list is taking.
> 

I add a heartfelt ME TOO! to that sentiment. Constructive criticism is one
thing, but when people start leaving the list over it we gotta get some
fire extinguishers in here, folks!

And on a happier note: HEY DOUG! No Winmail.dat, no MIME attachments!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 23:09:35 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: TAS (was Re: Need help, please)

Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 11:33:41 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Need help, please

> > >Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com> wrote

> > >1)   One of my players received "Traveller's Aid Society" as a     > > > mustering-out benefit from the Navy.  He wonders why he should    > > >ever work, since he can sell a high passage every two months,      > > >giving him an excellent income.

>From the replies, I'm actually surprised that this is a problem in so 
>many games.  As a member of the TAS, a character is allowed one High 
>Passage every two months.  This can usually be sold for 90% of its 
>face value--Cr9,000.  That's only Cr4,500 for the character per 
>month.

If you can't help the players sppend Cr 4,500 a month you are not doing
a good enough job of describing all the neat stuff you can buy in
Traveller.

[snip]

>I figure that the TAS does not loose money on dispensing all those 
>HPs to all it's members every other month.  They probably get them 
>(or print them) for next to nothing, or trade them for some other 
>service they perform.  Either way, I can see the TAS going out of 
>business real quick if it gave Cr4,500 per month to all of its 
>members--I don't care if it is MCr1 to get in the place.

If TAS gets Cr 1,000,00 from every member and invests this money at a 7%
real (after inflation if the Imperium has it) they will be earning Cr
70,000 per year on his money.

They will owe each member 1 high passage every 2 months.  I assume that
the Imperial Calender uses 13 28 day months (to the extent it has months
at all) + Holiday = 365 days per year.  Therefore TAS owes each of its
members 6.5 High Passages per year.  These High Passages will cost Cr
65,000 per year if TAS pays full price & no one ever cashes a passage
in.  If a member always cashes his coupons in this will cost TAS Cr
58,500 per year.

TAS can make money on its members this way.  Further more TAS is only
having to pay interest (in the form of High Passage coupons) on the
money you have already given them.  Wouldn't you love it if people gave
you Cr 1,000,000 (or even $1,000,000).

In addition TAS only has to pay out passages as long as you are alive. 
For this reason TAS would rather you took the coupon, travelled to some
interesting (read dangerous) planet and were killed, because it will cut
down on their expenses.  Naturally it would be bad for their immage if
they were to admit this so they will try & be a bit more subtle about
this.  This is the primary reason why TAS in my universe will frequently
have free lectures on the equivilent of big game hunting & the civilian
version of the Imperial Marine meteoric assault from orbit.

Remember TAS wants you dead so they don't have to spend money on you :)

>(I also don't think that when some characters get the membership 
>during chargen--say a Naval character, that the Navy actually pays 
>MCr1 to get the character in.  I think that the fee is waved by the 
>TAS by special arrangement for whatever reason with the Navy--I don't 
>know, maybe the TAS allots so many memberships to various services 
>each year for political reasons.)

Probably because ex Imperial military members are already self selected
for recklessness & letting them in will provide reckless (er heroic)
role models that their other members will emulate & get themselves
killed.  No doubt they have done an actuarial study on this topic &
determined how many memberships they can give away & increase their
revenues.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 17:16:27 -0900
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Confusion at FTL??

At 12:59 PM 18/05/97 -0800, you wrote:
>........... They could propose alternate game
>universes with FTL radio using the Traveller rules. Instead, IG just
>publishes without even bothering to check for consistency and then ignores
>customers who complain. This, I have a complaint with.

I've noticed this a couple of times now... what's all this about FTL radio???



Harry (the confused)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 17:30:37 -0900
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: TML Helps Out!  (was FS data - what to do?)

At 11:33 AM 19/05/97 +0000, you wrote:

>PS  I guess somebody should go to IG (or Marc) first to see if they 
>will use the data that we generate and fix.  I don't see why we 
>should go to all this trouble first--only to find that IG won't use 
>it.

Does it really matter if IG uses it... If it is available freely to all on
the TML, and WE all use it.. I can't see a problem. If someone is new to
the game, and not on the TML, it doesn't really affect them. If IG produces
future modules which conflicts with our data, we could publish fixes. 
I personally feel that this is a good idea.

OK, the downside is that we now have to get team of people with disparate
viewpoints to work together. If this is to be done properly, and someone is
chosen as team leader, part of his/her responsibility will be to resolve
disputes. How do we give him/her this authority?

Don't get me wrong... I would **really** like to see this done.

In addition, would it include maps? Proper **maps**?



Harry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 00:14:26 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Subject: Valentine's Rose (long)

>From: Nick Munn <N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk>

Nice post!  I'll use that in a campaign, for sure.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 00:26:28 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.com>
Subject: a senior citizen organization (was: T4-Revised: CharGen)

>From: twolf@unix.tfs.net

>I like the T4 character generation system.  It allows me to generate
>good solid characters that are in their late twenties or early
>thirties.  I use to be amazed that most traveller characters were
>in their forties and fifties.  It was like a senior citizen
>organization.

How long did we assume that characters of Solomani ancestry were likely 
to live?  Life expectancy is of course extremely variable and hard to 
predict given the incredible size and diversity of the Imperial population, 
but it could be that at age 42 (six terms), a character was looking at 20 
or more years of serious adventuring before slowing down at 65, then 
retiring at 80, then dying at 100.  A Vilani character, as we learned later, 
might live to 140 (or was it 160?), so at age 42 could expect maybe 80 more 
years of adventuring before taking that desk job and eventually retiring.  

The prevalence of older characters adds an element of alienness to the far 
future for me.  Now I do recall that in our mid-twenties you and I were indeed 
good solid characters, but you'll concede that we were the exception.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 10:45:29 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: ANCIENT Grandfather

>He is psionic !
>
>Yes he could have helped the major races but why would he want to.
>Since we know that the Ancient artifact the Zhodhani have that prompted
>them to do the Core Expiditions gives accurate representations of the
>future is it really so hard to imagine that Yaskodray knew they were
>going to be important later & stuck pictures of them on the coyns to
>help socialize the Droyne about who they were going to have to deal
>with.

Sorry about that. In my Traveller universe precognition is a no-no. The
artifact given to Zhodani to make them go the core route creates computer
simulations of the encounters and updates the data whenever it gets access
to a mind to probe. Thus the Zhos see the future and also sees that the
future changes (scratch determinism) when they do things.
I forgot that other refs actually allow precognition, I just think
precognition is as hard to referee as timetravel and disallow it but my
players doesn't know that nor the Zhos.

As precognition etc is in the canon I'll probably have to join Eris's
"Church of hereticism".


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 10:58:44 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: ANCIENT Grandfather

>Who's to say that  wasn't just smart enough to see
>where these races were headed?  Heck, lowly upstarts like the
>Hivers and Imperium can mess around with psychohistory, it
>seems reasonable that Grandfather could extrapolate development
>some time into the future.  So he put them on the coyns so
>the Droyne will recognize them as important when the time comes....

Pretty cool to extrapolate psychohistory 50 000 years. What were we when
the Droynes got the coyns? Pre-agricultural at best. The toughest to do for
grandfather though was by psychohistory extrapolating that Aslans would be
recognized as a major race despite that terrans gave it to them.
I'd say either he meddled with them (as Ethans excellent post made clear)
or he cheated by using precognition. But if he used precognition then why
didn't he do that to predict the mess his children would make forcing hime
to spend several thousand years to exterminate them? As I said before
precognition opens a pretty large can of worms.

Backman, the semiheretic.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:08:34 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: hard science

>   Whatever the causes, I just felt the need to point out, in
>   contradiction to what some have asserted on this list, that Traveller
>   is not and never has been a "hard" science-fiction game.  And I
>   personally have no problem with that.  I have spent too much time
>   thinking about what would have to be done to change Trav into a
>   harder game, and I cannot see how this can be done while preserving
>   canon.  Since I feel that what makes Traveller good /is/ its canon, I
>   have basically abbandoned all attempts at rationalizing its magic.

Hard SF is always in relation to something else (soft SF, space opera).
Traveller is certainly not hard SF when compared to SF literature but I
think it is when compared to other SF rpg. The rpg with the most hard SF
feel was IMHO Traveller2300 but Traveller comes as a good second. Depends
on what you call SF rpg of course: the hardest SF rpg ever, I think, was
1:st edition Twilight 2000 but that doesn't count.

The SF rpg with the most unworkable ideas was something way back called
SpaceQuest(?) with tim units of day, week, year etc changed to be easier to
write in decimal. I think they kept 1 second the same length but I'm not
shure. There was 100 seconds to the minute, 100 minutes to the hour, 10
hours to the day and 1000 days to the year (all taken from memory).


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 97 05:06:08 -0400
From: FKiesche@concentric.net
Subject: Well I hate to interject...

..myself in the various debates on pricing and the like but I thought 
I'd throw in some Traveller history...

I finally tracked down the origins of Victoria (Spinward Marches). If 
you've seen the original article in JTAS#2, you'll remember that Victoria 
is based on a planet called Durrent, taken from a novel called Prisoners 
of the Sky by C.C. MacApp.

Well after much diligent searching, I now hold in my hands Prisoners of 
the Sky! (Lancer Books, 1969, $0.75-!!!!--remember when books cost less 
than your allowance?--!!!). (Of course it cost me more than $0.75 to buy 
the puppy, sigh!)

The front cover depitcs a rather abstract background, with a reddish moon 
in the sky. The moon shows lines and some largish craters (this is 
presumably Albert...but I wonder if there is a old base on it!). 
Hanginting in front of the moon is a blimp with a gondala. In the 
foreground is a man with goggles and what appears to be a oxygen hose 
running over his shoulder. He is grimacing, so I know he's got to be Our 
Hero.

The back description reads as follows:

- ------------------------------

Poison Planet

Earth colonzied Durrent, a strange world of high mesas and poinson 
valleys, where men could live only on the highest peaks. There were other 
stars to colonize, and better worlds--but space was vast. There was no 
way off Durrent until the chance visit of another wandering starship. The 
men of Earth were there to stay.

Even though much of the planet was forbidden, locked behind the barriers 
of poison gas, the colonies grew and became separate city-states. Then 
war broke out, and one young Fleet officer of Mesa Lowry, armed only with 
an outmoded traning ship and a crew of half-trained civilians, found that 
the future of his world rested on the outcome of his battle to clear his 
family name of dishonor!

- ------------------------------

So you can see Victoria was modeled pretty closely after Durrent.

More on this once I get to and through the book



Frederick Paul Kiesche III
(FKiesche@concentric.net)
(Traveller since 1977!)

"Sing to me of the man, Muse, the man of twists and turns
driven time and again off course, once he had plundered
the hallowed heights of Troy."

- --The Odyssey by Homer (translated by Robert Fagles)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:21:21 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Ancients & Jump Drive

>Actually no there is not.  Reverse engineering something is different from
>somebody handing you a technology.  What I am saying here is that
>Grandfather did not appear to each race during a specific time and said
>"here, this is jump drive, this is how you use it - now go colonise the
>Universe!"  there is zero evidence for this for most of the "major races"

the minor-major race distinction says you have to INVENT the damned thing
to be called major - not just copy, reverse engineer etc. Otherwise the
Geonee should be called major as well.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:18:22 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: ANCIENT Grandfather

>> >> Assuming that there are more inteligent major races in the galaxy,
>> >> he choose the 6 we are familiar with, because these are the six which are
>> >> closest to the Droyne home world (where ever that is).
>>
>> Not the case - there are several sophonts in the Spinward marches alone -
>> much closer to Droyne homeworld than say Aslans or Kkree.
>
>Good point, but I said *major* race.  Then again it might have been a
>GDW design decision and no reasoning can be attached to it at this point
>in time.

Circular to the extreme.
We're talking about how he could have known which races to be major before
they had any technology at all. You said maybe he just picked the 6 closest
to home. I say nay there are lots closer that weren't picked.
Then you say he picked the six closest that were MAJOR races. I stand
mentally stunned for 1D6 rounds ?!??

(All in good fun etc etc)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:29:53 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Crisis on Infinite Earth

>> Einstein revisions of these laws. And If you take a deep look at
>> quantum mechanics and relativistic theories, you'll find that these
>> two collide on some rather important issues.

>The only places they "collide" are areas where we haven't been able to
>make observations. Once we make observatiions *those* set the standard
>for "right".

<Physics ramble ON>
Actually relativity and quantum mechanics problem with each other are more
fundamental than lack of observations. They're sort of mutually exclusive
regarding their underpinnings and all tries at bringing them together have
failed. My bet is that general relativity will be modified pretty soon (as
soon as we solve the missing matter problem) and then made to fit quantum
mechanics as the body of data that fits quantum mechanics is HUGE compared
to the tiny amounts of general relativity data we have. Special relativity
will remain as is.
<Physics ramble OFF>


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:36:52 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: ANCIENT Grandfather

>Well, the first 'modern' coyn set (as opposed to the one(s?) used in the
>heyday of the Ancients) was introduced by Yaskodray ca. 50,000 years ago,
>and that one didn't have Aslan, Hiver, or K'Kree coyns. According to _Secret
>of the Ancients_ p. 32 he '...continued to refine these coyns [...]; over
>time, they came to show various races (Aslan, Hiver, K'Kree) which did not
>even exist when Droyne ranged the stars.'
>
>So the coyn sets of Mileau 1100 Droyne societies is propably no more than
>2000 years old or thereabouts.

Good, case closed.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:14:06 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: S/F Role playing games

>It might mean that FUDGE is of no interest, but I doubt it...I'm in a PBEM
>right now where the GM (Eris Reddoch) is using a meld of FUDGE and
>Traveller. I think you mentioned me as an occasional drum-beater for
>fudge. (someone did, and since 99% of my Traveller mail ends in the
>trashcan, I tend to forget who says what)  Someday I'll have unlimited
>disk space and can save everything, but until then my mailbox tends to get
>pruned with a chainsaw every day.
>
>If I ever get a new gaming group together, I'll probably use fudge, since
>in the groups I've been in, we tend to cycle from game to game, giving
>GM's time to come up with the next adventure, and a breathing space to
>play themselves, abd using a single system like fudge or gurps is
>ideal...it lets people easily slip from genre to genre without the hassle
>of 'Oh hell is this task controlled by DEX of CON or Wild Acting ability
>in THIS game'.

RAMBLING WARNING ON

I'm slowly (as I'm running a campaign) converting my game into something
FUDGE-like but I started this before FUDGE and the likeness is only
accidental (or this IS the proper way to do roleplaying mechanics). The
main thing against FUDGE is their weird D3 system. Anybody even mildly
irritated over T4 task system should blow his fuses when seeing the FUDGE
D3 dice. The consistent use of logarithms for conversion between real
world(tm) and game mechanics is a good one though.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:18:34 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: The last Straw

- -> > I love it!  Burn, baby, burn! :)
- -> > 
- -> > Kenneth.
- -> > 
- -> Well that is the final straw.  I had subscribed to TML (Traveller 
- -> Mailing List) to share ideas about my hobby; not to the KBL (Kenneth 
- -> Bitch List) which now advocates the burning of book.  This has gone 
- -> too far.  I cannot support any medium that would advocate such an 
- -> act nor tolerate a person who would.  Kenneth, you should move to 
- -> Germany the neo-nazis are recruiting.
I strongly object to that remark! Neo's are a problem in Germany, 
true, but as fought back on every corner. Comparing Germany's past to 
it's present is a sick comment!
Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:34:01 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: [T97#1332] {VERY LONG} MM, IG, Traveller, and We (was: 

- -> back of your mind that Roger Sanger/DGP would very likely take
- -> Traveller in a New York microsecond, were it to be offered.
Except that we haven't heard from him in months now, did we? I would 
be very pleased to have him report on (non-)Progress regarding the IG 
Licensing procedure, so we could either wait gleefully or tell IG to 
make it fly! 


Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:49:23 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: FS fix is the right thing to do

- ->     Perhaps people don't know how difficult it is to start a brand-new 
- -> business these days. Imperium Games is not a wealthy company. So while I'm 
- -> not telling other list members what to do, I will re-iterate that I will 
- -> AUTOMATICALLY buy every single item IG puts out, and I will constantly urge 
- -> Winnipeg gamers to start playing Traveller.
GDW never was a WEALTHY company either, but they sure managed to have 
errata sheets available for everyone who requested them and to 
reprint what they did wrong (Reissues of the MT-Rules, for example).
I wish IG would be as considerate of us customers as GDW was once! 

Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1346
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, May 20 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1347



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: First Survey - Errors were there six months ago!!!
RE: FS fix is the right thing to do
THUDD Exploratory Traders
Re: Releasing old stuff (Re: IG Pricing Policy)
Re: TML Helps Out!  (was FS data - what to do?)
Re: TAS (was Re: Need help, please)
Re: The last Straw
An Open Letter to the List
Re: Ancients & Jump Drive
May THUDDD - Typo in Generica Starships Entry
Re:Need Help Please
In my opinion ....
Re: First Survey - Errors were there six months ago!!!
Re: An Open Letter to the List
RE: FS fix is the right thing to do
Geonee and Massilia question
Re: Ancient Grandfather
Re: An Open Letter to the List ... and the Yacht!
A letter about M:0 and FS to IG

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:44:27 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: First Survey - Errors were there six months ago!!!

- -> >   FIRST SURVEY - Gov=law level was evident last October!!!
- -> [snipped]
- -> 
- -> Interesting.  In the "Blank" vs. "No Blank" war of the time, that little 
- -> detail was missed by every single one of us who were here at the time.  
- -> Marc posted it for comment, and all we could do was fight over whether 
- -> there should or shouldn't be blank worlds.  We fought over something 
- -> that, in the end, was a miniscule issue as compared to the big picture of 
- -> messed up data.  Very interesting.
I'm not sure, but i think i remember someone picking that up! 
Someonme complained about it, but nobody reacted. Can't seem to 
remember who, though! 

Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:54:50 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: RE: FS fix is the right thing to do

- ->     Having a list of LLs completely separate from the rest of the UPP is such 
- -> a monumental PITA I don't even want to think about it. Every single time 
- -> you want to look up a world, you have to first look it up in FS, and then 
- -> look up the LL on a cryptic errate sheet. I DON'T WANT TO DO THIS!

K.C, there has been this Neat-o invention a couple of years ago: It's 
called "a Pencil" and can be used to write things down on paper! 
Ingenious concept, innit? With one of these gizmo's one could easily 
WRITE DOWN the correct data next to the false one (sure has enough 
space there!). Sure, it takes an hour or two, but is definitively 
worth the hassle.
- ->     Printing out the entire UPPs would bankrupt IG. That would mean printing 
- -> out the ENTIRE FS book free of charge. In the past few weeks, as Campaign 
But print only what is wrong isn't. Law levels for every world and 
complete data just for the badly messed upue ones (Vland, etc!)
 Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 23:29:23 -0700
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au>
Subject: THUDD Exploratory Traders

First of all, rip the bloody Meson Screens. In my view, there
is no way in hell the Imperial Navy would let *anyone* take
a meson screen out of Imperial Space - including itself.

As has, I think, been noted on the list, a meson screen is
the major technical advantage a TL12 navy has when fighting
a TL11 navy. In my view, meson screens would be *more*
tightly controlled than meson guns, because the IN can
defend against meson guns.

Apart from that ... nice design work, fellas.

Best Pirate award goes to the Elisabeth class. It'll never
make it as a trader (MCr 1111 vs 400t cargo, and no trade
specialists), but that bay laser will let you capture lots 
of smaller ships :) 

Worst Design Decision goes to the designers of the Ming 2000,
who forgot a nuclear damper. Nukes are a TL7 invention, and
one nuke wrecks your whole day.

The Recollet is likely to sell the most in unit volumes - MCr226
for a ship with 100t of cargo, that never the less is capable
of trading a long way past the frontier. The space for eight
trade specialists (four if you carry them in as much comfort as
the better-paid crewmembers get) helps probable profitability
as well.

The 1108 class is the best of the bigger traders - high maneuver,
adequate defenses and 1000t of cargo vs 1100 megacredits cost.
Space for twenty trade specialists is provided as well, ensuring
correct decisions can be made as to what to trade to whom.

But I really cant go past the Cristobal class. A combination of
two jump 2-capable carried craft and twenty trade specialists
decided the issue. Including carried craft, it has 530 tons of
cargo capability, which is acceptable compared to it's total
MCr1300 cost. The Amerigo Vespucci class vessels really need to
be armed, however, and fuel bladders for a jump-2 in their cargo
bays could be a good idea (allowing a rapid evacuation of a 
hostile system). Personally, I would also replace the suggested
Santo Domingo with a third Amerigo Vespucci.

The advantage it will have is speed and flexibility. On contacting
a potential market, the mother ship can leave, with one of the sub-
craft remaining in system to keep an eye on things, and provide a
home base for up to 14 trade specialists.

As the shipyard's advertising makes clear, the sub-craft can help
cover three times the area that a single craft could. 

If one wants to really optimize cargo capacity, and has contacted
a world with an industrial base, the locals could be contracted to 
build a hull of the same size and shape as an Amerigo Vespucci
class. It doesnt need an engine or life support, and it doesnt 
matter if it built of composite laminates, aluminium or even welded 
steel - just so that it can be grappled to the mother ship with lots 
of interior space for cargo. The Amerigo Vespucci then makes it's 
own way home.

A related idea is to carry as cargo a prefabricated base. One of the
Amerigo Vespucci's is delegated the task of setting up the base on
some silent world in an abandoned system, thus providing a point at
which cargos can be stockpiled for later shipment back to the
Imperium. A pair of Heavily Armed Cutters could be carried as cargo 
as a self-defense force for the base.

In short, buy the Recollet if you want to be a Merchant Prince, and
buy a Cristobal Colon if you already are.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 13:20:15 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Releasing old stuff (Re: IG Pricing Policy)

- -> You can find these items for sale in rec.games.frp.marketplace.
Only problem being that more and more traders are buying up the stock 
and driving up the prices. Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 13:28:33 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: TML Helps Out!  (was FS data - what to do?)

- -> Somebody has suggested using the TNE rules for the deterioration of a 
- -> planet's stats.  That might be a good idea.
NNNNOOOO! The Crash of the RoM was different from the Crash of the 3I.
The Virus was much more devastating than the steady but gradual 
decline of the RoM. The Long Night might have been more dureable, but 
not as effective in killing off worlds and such as the Rebellion and 
Virus were. Teir combined destructive potential was much, much higher!Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 14:08:15 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: TAS (was Re: Need help, please)

>In addition TAS only has to pay out passages as long as you are alive.
>For this reason TAS would rather you took the coupon, travelled to some
>interesting (read dangerous) planet and were killed, because it will cut
>down on their expenses.  Naturally it would be bad for their immage if
>they were to admit this so they will try & be a bit more subtle about
>this.  This is the primary reason why TAS in my universe will frequently
>have free lectures on the equivilent of big game hunting & the civilian
>version of the Imperial Marine meteoric assault from orbit.
>
>Remember TAS wants you dead so they don't have to spend money on you :)

Aha, the answer to one of my PC questions: My player asked why only some
planets are marked Amber Zones by TAS while most Green zone planets seem
just as dangerous (wherever you land the GM cooks up some adventure nearly
killing you).
The real answer to this is that the only safe planets are the Red zones as
TAS want you killed and thus stear you away from those dull safe places ;)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 05:23:53 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@pop.goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: The last Straw

>    Not that it matters, my impression is that Twolf was looking for an
> excuse to take a powder.  Maybe he should change his name to 'Tpuppy'. 
> In any event what he really needs is a good wet nurse, not a mature
> audience.

Congratulations! You have just attacked someone I consider a personal 
friend, publicly and insensitively.  There is no call for such in a 
civilized society.  Of course, TML isn't a civilized society, is it?  

 
>    Just calling them like I see them...

I'd comment, but we'd be getting into that personal attack thing...

Suz 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 05:34:54 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@pop.goodnet.com>
Subject: An Open Letter to the List

Greetings...

The tone of the list has gotten to such that I can't abide reading it 
anymore. The posts have devolved into infantile attacks... Its not 
worth the depression, its not worth the headaches, its not worth 
crying over personal, insensitive, obnoxious attacks on friends.

I'm leaving, but I'll be around for a day or two to watch your 
reactions. I wouldn't want to be called a sniveling whining coward 
by anyone.

I hope someone takes over Traveller Chat for you.  I'll probably join 
*that* from time to time, but I will no longer coordinate it.

To Ken Bearden:  I hope someday you realize that you have sunk from 
someone whose posts I read gladly to someone whose posts I ceased to 
read. I hope you can come to see yourself as at least some of the 
rest of us have. I even personally invited you to Traveller Chat once 
:-(

To Nick Nunn: Your post just wasn't enough to overcome last nights 
barrage....

Twolf and I are *not* the only ones in my close circle of friends and 
husband on the list who has or will unsubscribe. Maybe we'll try 
again in a few months, maybe not.

You all know my email address, my door is open to *reason*.

Suz



Suzette C. Dollar
#traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 06:00:38 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ancients & Jump Drive

On Tue, 20 May 1997, Anders Backman wrote:

> the minor-major race distinction says you have to INVENT the damned thing
> to be called major - not just copy, reverse engineer etc. Otherwise the
> Geonee should be called major as well.

Actually Anders...all you have to do is GET AWAY with claiming you
invented it...witness the Aslan.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 06:25:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: May THUDDD - Typo in Generica Starships Entry

  In the Universal Ship Description of the Generica Starships Type 1108,
the Manuever is given as 3 - this should be 2 (it was late at night when I
typed things up).  The manuever drive is given correctly in the
descriptive text as M2.  Sorry for the error - hope folks were not
confused about how I could stuff so much in and leave so much cargo space. 

  I took a preliminary look at the other designs posted to the website -
good stuff, as usual.  I'll post my comments next week, since I'll be at
an academic conference this weekend and will be busy.

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 97 10:11:45 -0400
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: Re:Need Help Please

>From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
> 3)	This one may be unanswerable.  Traveller has turned my players into gun
> nuts.  I've purposfully  allowed very few situations to arise where
> firepower is useful, but they're constantly looking for them and dreaming
> of ways to knock off low-tech governments.  It's getting old and infantile
> fast.  Any suggestions?

Well, if you look at third world nations, most of them buy weapons from
other countries.  Weapons far beyond what they can actually produce in
their own country. 

In Traveller, I would imagine that many of the low tech worlds, would
buy high tech weapons from their neighbors.  So that TL-1 worlds won't
have people with swords and spears, but the standard TL-12 combat
armor, ACRs and RAM grenades. There won't just be a few of these
people, but probably hundreds to thousands, depending on the size of
thepopulation. This pretty much eliminates the ability for players to
take over low tech planets.  

Someone else suggestd, that we don't see Mercenaries taking over small
African Countries.  Well last year a group of French Mercenaries staged
a coup in Comoros, and island group north of Madagascar.  They easily
took over the island, and a few days later the French Army easily
arrested the mercenaries.  You can use this in Traveller also.  If the
players succeed, send in the Marines.

Lewis Roberts
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Q:What did the baby porcupine say when it backed into a cactus?
A:Is that you Mommy?     

lewis@chara.gsu.edu
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 10:11:34 -0400
From: maverick@castlegate.net (Steve Brengard)
Subject: In my opinion ....

In my opinion I see 'offended' personalities as a sign the direction the =
World Community is headed, and it's a damn shame. I believe that most =
members of the list live and work within the national boundaries of the =
United States. Last time I checked, the constitution still protected the =
right of free speech. Every US citizen is entitled to free speech. If =
someone chooses to express there option, no matter if with taste or =
without, so be it. It is this same right that allows all of us to =
respond to such opinions. If you do not like a post or opinion, that =
great! If you like and support an opinion or post, that's great too!

But lets  be adults about it all. This liberalist  path the US has taken =
UPSETS me. That's right, its getting so bad that no one can say anything =
without offending someone. Get over it. We all live in a world of =
differing opinions. You MUST accept that other have differing opinions =
then yours, and you MUST accept that they are entitled to their =
opinions. You may not agree with those opinions, but that simply does =
not invalidate them.=20

So if you need to run away because someone's comments offended you, so =
be it. But you'll be running for the rest of your life. People will =
continue to offend one another all over the world, and running away will =
not solve that.=20

Oh, and if I offended anyone, tough sh!t. Deal with it.

Steven E. Brengard
maverick@castlegate.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:40:52 +0100
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: Re: First Survey - Errors were there six months ago!!!

At 12:44 20/05/97 MET, Volker A. Greimann wrote:
>-> >   FIRST SURVEY - Gov=law level was evident last October!!!
>-> [snipped]
>-> 
>-> Interesting.  In the "Blank" vs. "No Blank" war of the time, that little 
>-> detail was missed by every single one of us who were here at the time.  
>-> Marc posted it for comment, and all we could do was fight over whether 
>-> there should or shouldn't be blank worlds.  We fought over something 
>-> that, in the end, was a miniscule issue as compared to the big picture of 
>-> messed up data.  Very interesting.
>I'm not sure, but i think i remember someone picking that up! 
>Someonme complained about it, but nobody reacted. Can't seem to 
>remember who, though! 
>
	No, I checked. All that was picked up was that a lot of the UWP's had '44'
as the last two digits for gov and law, not that _all_ of the gov and law
were the same. Someone going under the name of Amused to Death noted this
and "mentioned" it to MM.

	See ya...


Bruce E J Lewis - mailto:bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk
Telephone - 0956-506527

	From Barkingside, within the London home county of Essex, E N G L A N D

Spurs Ticket Info can be found at...http://web.ftech.net/~legend/fixtures.htm

	Tottenham Hotspur - "Everybody will be singing..."
	Paxton Road Stand - Block R, Row 14, Seat 58

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 09:34:40 -0500
From: Kevin Scardino <kjscar@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: An Open Letter to the List

Don't force me to bring in my T-20 level ship and wipe out the entire list
of morons, well mostly morons, 

Quit whining about the little things, if you haven't something positive to
say like how to fix a problem then don't say any thing at all.

It's like crying over a glass of spilled milk, just clean up the mess and
get yourself an glass of milk.  

Help fix the problem, and quit crying.  Everything has problems and some
have a few more than others but they are fixable.



     >>>-----Kevin Scardino----->         kjscar@ix.netcom.com     :)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:40:54 +0100
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: RE: FS fix is the right thing to do

At 12:54 20/05/97 MET, Volker A. Greimann wrote:
>K.C, there has been this Neat-o invention a couple of years ago: It's 
>called "a Pencil" and can be used to write things down on paper! 
>Ingenious concept, innit? With one of these gizmo's one could easily 
>WRITE DOWN the correct data next to the false one (sure has enough 
>space there!). Sure, it takes an hour or two, but is definitively 
>worth the hassle.
>->     Printing out the entire UPPs would bankrupt IG. That would mean
printing 
>-> out the ENTIRE FS book free of charge. In the past few weeks, as Campaign 
>But print only what is wrong isn't. Law levels for every world and 
>complete data just for the badly messed upue ones (Vland, etc!)
> Ad Astra,
>
	I disagree. I paid for a _complete_ set of accurate raw data. There are
about 4,500 UWP's in First Survey. Why should I spend time correcting
something that I've already paid to have done?

	Also, I disagree that any of us on TML had any responsibility whatsoever
for the accuracy of the early draft of FS posted here in October. One could
follow it up to say that we should have some say in IG's managerial policy.
So if that's the case, can I ask for hot chocolate in the coffee machine
outside Marc's office? Thanks!

	See ya...


Bruce E J Lewis - mailto:bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk
Telephone - 0956-506527

	From Barkingside, within the London home county of Essex, E N G L A N D

Spurs Ticket Info can be found at...http://web.ftech.net/~legend/fixtures.htm

	Tottenham Hotspur - "Everybody will be singing..."
	Paxton Road Stand - Block R, Row 14, Seat 58

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 17:02:10 +0200
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Geonee and Massilia question

I've a specific question for the Massilia Sector in the New Era

I hope that Carlos Alos-Ferrer could answer me


We (TNE-RCES mailing list) are gathering all the Massilia data to build a
complete file (reference). The already known existing subsectors are A (Hub
worlds) and the Geonee (J and K) background.

Does anyone knows any other existing collapsed subsector on the Net or
other official (or semi official) books


Specific question to Carlos

Do you have collpased all the Massilia Sector or just 2 subsectors?

Thanks a lot for replying.
- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 10:55:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: Ancient Grandfather

From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
>> This is even more sinister. Grandfather doesn't care or know about the six
>> races he picked on the Coyns later development of j-drives on their own,
>> neither did he help them do it. This implies that whatever method
>> grandfather used to pick these six races out of I'd say several hundred
>> sentient races at the time also with 100% hit rate nailed them as
>> independent j-drive developers. What strange innate ability does the major
>> races have that grandfather could detect that is ESSENTIAL to inventing
>> Enough to put even a Virushi into berserker rage.
>
>Then the Solomani *are* right :)
>
>Long live the Solomani!

Uh, ok, I know you love the Solomani and all, but...
The _Vilani_ invented the concept of minor/major races.
The Terrans/early Solomani didn't actually subscribe to the concept of
"minor" races.  The later Solomani were straight-out bigots, everyone
was "minor" compared to them.

Anyways, more on this...


>> What? There's _lots_ of evidence.
>
>Actually no there is not.  Reverse engineering something is different from
>somebody handing you a technology.  What I am saying here is that
>Grandfather did not appear to each race during a specific time and said
>"here, this is jump drive, this is how you use it - now go colonise the
>Universe!"  there is zero evidence for this for most of the "major races"

Huh. Well, Glenn Hoppe (sp?) agrees with me, so nyah! ;)

I agree with you that Grandfather didn't just show up one day 
and drop off jump drives with instruction manuals. It's my assertion
that he did place them about "strategically" so that they would
be found. I mean, really, the _same thing_ has been invented in
_the exact same way_ all over the universe not only by different
human cultures, but also by _different races_??? Like, this stretches
it a bit.

The development on interstellar travel is a big thing for a race -
it make you a big player. The Vilani knew this - they made themselves
the only big player around and did pretty damn well for a few thousand years.
Why are Vilani and Solomani cultural remanants all over the Imperium
when the Geonoee and other minor races remain in their own small
corners of the galaxy? Being a "major" race has a lot of psychological
weight to it. The truth is another matter entirely.

>> The Solmani - hm, discovered Ancient Artifacts in the asteroid belt
>>  and on some Jovian moons, discovers jump drive in the same place...
>>  Hmmmm... coincidence?
>
>I think the solomani discovered it, thats why they went so quickly from
>J-1 drives to J-3.  Also, the Solomani alien module does not say anything
>about ancient sites on the moons of Jupiter(that i can find anyway) - your
>thinking of 2010.

No I'm not. Sheesh. Tell you what - I'll go home and check _all_ of
the Alien modules, Solomani & Aslan, Vilani & Vargr and all my
MT stuff too. Sheesh - please don't tell me I don't know what I'm
talking about. We all know what we're talking about.

On a completely irrelevant note, this is what really burns me.
This is a mailing list. You can ignore what you don't like.
Don't tell me, or anyone, to shut up and don't tell me I'm getting
Traveller confused with 2010.

>> The Hivers - they developed the "inferior" jump drive by themselves,
>>  but after a few hundred years of exploration, one day, poof! A new,
>>  better jump drive! How about they discovered an Ancient site
>>  and "upgraded" their drives.
>
>Dont have the module so cant say - but a few hundred years is a pretty
>long time, I am sure Grandfather did not help them.

Well, "I am sure" that they probably discovered something that
really changed their idea of how jump drive is supposed to work.
I doubt it was corn dogs.

Anyways, this is just all a _theory_. If you have trouble 
finding everything I've said written down, it's probably because it's
all a product of my warped imagination.

Ethan

- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 08:32:25 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: An Open Letter to the List ... and the Yacht!

Suzette C. Dollar wrote:
> 
> Greetings...
> 
> The tone of the list has gotten to such that I can't abide reading it
> anymore. The posts have devolved into infantile attacks... Its not
> worth the depression, its not worth the headaches, its not worth
> crying over personal, insensitive, obnoxious attacks on friends.

I must confess that I share her sentiments. Reading the TML is very
quick for me now because I just keep deleting all the messages that
have anything to do with bitching about IG and 'Last Straw' as
the subject.

Before we lose anyone else valuable to this list, could we all make
a concerted effort to keep the subject matter related to Traveller
in its many forms? While I can understand how bitching about IG
is Traveller-related, personal attacks are not.

I read this list to get ideas for my campaign, to flesh out the
Traveller 'canon' universe (which I use) and to get feedback on work
I've done. Posts of this nature I consider useful. Lately the 
signal-to-noise ratio on this list has gotten low. 

Now, back to Traveller: there are a few helpful people on this list
who have volunteered to double-check my yacht design. It's using
the MT rules. Once I've incorporated people's suggestions and finalized
it, I'll be making deckplans for it.

Would someone on the TML find this useful? I'm willing to provide
the deckplans, the yacht design spreadsheet I used and my notes,
free of charge, to anyone who asks. Should I post them to the list?
Is there a web site I could send them to?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 16:35:32 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: A letter about M:0 and FS to IG

Zhodani agents report that Courtney Solomon wrote:

- -> Dear V.A.G,
- -> 
- -> I happened to read a copy of your E-mail to Joe Walsh and I
- -> wondered whether you would be so kind as to forward me your
- -> thoughts on what is wrong with the data of The MO book and the FS
- -> book.  If you could E-mail a detailed response then I assure you
- -> that I will check into it with MM and Tim Brown and see what has
- -> happened.
- -> 
Hi  Courtney.
First of all, thanks for your reply, that already means worlds to 
me...
Second, let me point out that i really really enjoyed M:0, which i 
felt was you best Traveller product to date, excepting the flaws 
pointed out below 
Now to my problems with M:0 and FS: 
1.) On all but a few worlds Law Level and Govt. Level are identical. 
This makes the Sector data of FS almost useless, since as a Referee, 
i need to know this information about a world. Leaving it out means 
leaving out half the Role-playing relevant data. 
2.) Various worlds have data that _just can't be true_! 
Vlands pop is too low to make it as attractive a partner as M:0 tells 
us it was for Cleon. Many rivals of the Sylean Fed. or the 3I have 
world data that doesn't match the description in M:0. Internal 
consistancy is important in Traveller! That these two books and the 
included information havn't been more closely cross examined is in my 
eyes a bad mistake. 
3.) The proposed move by IG to declare this data official: 
While i realize that printing the book up corrected would cost a lot 
of money, these must be a way of correcting the data otherwise, even 
if it is done just by making an errata sheet available to buyers. The 
excuse that the Law Level hasn't been invented in the 3I at that time 
can't be true/relevant because: a) It is information relevant to the 
3I for later dealings with that world so there should be info like 
that available to the 3I; b) Sylea and one other world have seperate 
Law Levels; c) The data is also meant for Traveller players and 
referees, who need that data; d) The data which is wrong (Vland, 
Enemies of Cleons'Imperium) still doesn't match the text in M:0 e) It 
violates Traveller canon. 4.) Your proposition to publish both books 
in one Hardback (which is good) without removing the mistakes in FS 
(which is bad, but might be tolerable if it's really too expensive to 
change the print templates) and without being so polite as to also 
offering to make available the added material for those who already 
bought the book. -Republishing is always a good idea, but it should 
be used to remove the errors of a given product. Look at GDW's 
practice: When they found that MT had many errors, they printed a new 
version, which eliminated many of the errors. They also offered 
errata sheets for SASE for those who already bought the product. 
Republishing and NOT correcting an obvious mistake, however, is 
something many people won't appreciate very much. At least include an 
errata sheet, if changing the templates is too expensive might 
suffice. Adding 32 pages to M:0 is o.k., but you should also consider 
those of us who already bought the M:0 book. I for one don't have the 
kind of cash floating around to buy every T4 book twice. However, i 
would like to have this information. You don't reward your faithful 
customes who buy every book you put out as soon as it's published by 
later putting out a new, improved edition with added material without 
also offering those individuals access to the new material in a way 
so that they won't have to buy everything again just to get the 
extra pages. 
5) The format in which the data is printed.
The font is too big and the spaces are too large. I would have 
preferred it to be more similar to the sector data in the MT 
Rulebooks and/or the DGP data. That way, many pages could have been 
saved for other info, or just left out to make the book cheaper. The 
data is still readable very well if that way is used, it's just that 
the info-space used ratio is greatly improved! In FS, about a quarter 
of the used space could have been saved and used differently or left 
out to reduce the price! 
6) I would have liked more info about he size and growth of the 3I: A 
couple of maps like in MegaTraveller showing the growth of the 
Imperium in M:0 (instead of the flow of the rebellion), as well as 
Information in the World Data of FS on when the World joined the 3I. 
But i don't consider this an error or ommission, it would just have 
been nice to have those... 
There are some more minor things, but i think i got the most 
important ones in this mail. I hope this mail is of any use to you.

Maybe you can tell us what you plan to do about the mistakes and why. 
That info would be greatly appreciated on the TML as well. These 
concerns are not only mine alone... Many of the TML Members share 
them. I hope you listen to the TML'ers from time to time (always with 
humor, though) since it is the best and most active source of 
feedback you will get. It's not perfect, but hey, what is in this 
world ;-)? Always remember... A lack of information creates rumors. 
Rumors create uncertainty, distrust and anger. And all these make 
people forget what they came here to do... Play and develop 
Traveller! The better you keep us informed, the earlier we can voice 
our opinions and concerns. It also lessens the creation of bad blood 
afterwards.

Thanks for listening to my "ramblings",

Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1347
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, May 20 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1348



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

An apology of sorts.  (was Re: The last Straw)
Re: Ship economics -- fuel consumption
Re: Computer Tech
END
Re: An Open Letter to the List
Re: Computer Tech
What the #%$* is going on here!
May 97 THUDDD entries (0/5)
May 97 THUDDD entries (1/5)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 08:37:45 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: An apology of sorts.  (was Re: The last Straw)

The letter I sent to the list was guilty of two failings, on later reading.
First, I dripped scorn on two people, rather than one, without being clear
which one I was calling what.  Second, I was guilty of not having an
appropriately thick skin regarding an insult to someone else, a sin I was
bemoaning just a few days ago.

As to the first, my point was that someone has set themselves up to be
talked about in a negative way when they leave in a huff, after an
announcement that is quite insulting.  Had twold not left the list, I
suspect that he would have gotten a less negative reaction, and it would
have been to his face, but since he left his post in a public place, he
cannot be surprised when he gets commentary on it in the same public place,
regardless of whether he is there ot hear it.

My original post lost that point in the invective, on later reading.

As to the second, I do apologize.  If Kenneth wishes to take offense at the
neo Nazi comment, that is his prerogative, and it is not mine.  We are
unfortunately living in the age of inoffensiveness, where a word that
offends you is license to fly off the handle, and it is somehow the
original speaker's job to handle all of the reactions, including the ones
that are extreme.  Clearly, this is ridiculous, as one must choose words
for the intended effect on the target audience, not on all the possible
members of any audience.

Despite knowing and believeing that, I still rose to the bait on seeing a
comparison of someone to a Nazi, and replied immediately.  Looks like I, as
well as many other members of modern times, must work at developing a
thicker skin.

Again, apologies for the inappropriate topic and invective.

Scott

- -------
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu.  http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz/
"You die, she dies, EVERYbody dies" - Heavy Metal
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment results" -
Calvin Coolidge, attrib. by Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 17:45:46 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Ship economics -- fuel consumption

Bruce E J Lewis writes:
>	Unless you have some form of jump governor, you can't stop a j-drive
>from using all the available fuel whether a ship does a jump-1 or jump-2
>maneuver, right? Meaning that if you have an amount of fuel that's enough
>for a jump-2, it may all be used up in a jump-1.
> 
>	Possible fix: Sorry if it's been mentioned before, but why not put the
>jump fuel into separate fuel tanks? They can be rigged up with fuel lines
>that can be interchanged for a jump-1 or 2 or whatever, or the multiple
>fuel holds could be situated next to each other with a retractable
>partition so that it becomes a say jump-2 fuel hold instead of two 1's, if
>all the fuel must be in one compartment that is. Whad'ya reckon, possible?

That's not the way I would interpret the rule. We've been told that there
are different levels of jumpspace. In order to travel two parsecs you need
to travel by jump-2 space (or higher). So a jump-2 engine is an engine that
can take you into jump-2 space. Getting into jump-2 space takes 20% of your
ship's volume in fuel no matter how far (up to two parsecs) you actually
travel. _Unless_, that is, you have a jump governor. If you do, and if you
don't need to go more than one parsec away, you can use your jump-2 engine 
to get you into jump-1 space, which only costs 10% of your ship's volume.

If you try to use a jump engine (any jump engine) to get into jump-2 space
without having enough fuel you will fail, even if you only wanted to go one 
parsec or less.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 07:44:01 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Tech

- ----------
> From: John R. Snead <jsnead@netcom.com>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Computer Tech
> Date: Tuesday, April 29, 1997 6:59 AM

> Could you explain more about optical matter?  is this some kind of
> material where the lasers temporarily weld the beads together and then
> unweld them in some way to change the image? 
> 
> As for TL 13 Holodynamic controls, how about metallic (or plastic) dust
> and carefully controlled gravitic fields?  The fields would shape the
dust
> or beads into a variety of shapes, levers, buttons... 

The material that makes up optical matter is a fine powder of some sort, I 
don't know the composition.  I understood that the powder was held in the
anti-nodes of the intersecting planar laser beams.

I read about this in a science journal, of which I don't remember the name,

at the UF science library.  

I like the gravitic fields idea to actually give it more solidity. 

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:00:10 -0500
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: END

OK, I know that my last post was supposed to be the final post on this
matter, but it seems that the first post I made has now exploded a massive
war between previously friendly members of the TML (Yes, the TML, not the KBL!!)

Twolf is right to an extent.  The TML is a place for furthering Traveller.
That is why I am staying.  No, I don't feel personally that I can continue
to support IG with what they are producing.  I do still love Traveller, and
I want Traveller to survive.

Traveller is more than a company.  Traveller is more than a game or a group
of players.  Traveller is a feeling.  It is that feeling you get when you
stop thinking about the real world and delve into a world of the future.  A
world where everyone, no matter how small or puny they are in Real Life(tm),
can make a difference.  Traveller is a world of mystery, a world of
amazement, and a world of fantasy.  Yes, Traveller is science, but it is
also science fiction.  Traveller is a place where we can all do what we
enjoy.  I can design ships.  Others can detail worlds.  Still others can
create strange new aliens.  All of this is good, but without the others, it
is shallow.  Traveller is the collection of all of us and our creativity.
Traveller is deep, not shallow.  It is more than one man's vision of the
future.  It extends beyond the collection of books published.  Traveller is
alive, and will continue to live as long as we allow it.

As perhaps one of the main igniters of the fire that has been started, I'm
now declaring an end to it.  Stop fighting and remember what we are here
for.  I say this to me, to Kenneth, to Joe, to Allen, to Twolf, to all of us
and to everyone else on the TML.

We aren't here to bicker or fight over IG.  Or at least we shouldn't be.  We
are here to grow Traveller.  We are here to define and expand Traveller.
Remember the feeling you got when you first "discovered" Traveller.  No,
really, stop reading right here and think about it for a minute...

[time for reader to think]

Now, that feeling.  Yeah, remember it?  Is that how you are feeling now?  If
not, ask yourself why.  It is likely because we (not you, we) have gotten
too involved with arguing with one another that we have lost sight of what
Traveller is.  I challenge all of you...force yourself back into the place
where you can help Traveller, and do something.

Now, a few individual comments.

To ME:  Paul, realize that sometimes you are too outspoken with your
feelings.  You tend to say things and then deal with the consequences.  Bite
your tongue and sit back and watch instead of responding.  Work on what you
do best, build things.  Build Planets and Ships, and whatever else you want
to build.

To Everyone else (about me):  Realize that Paul is outspoken.  Realize that
sometimes things that are said need to be said.  They may not be phrased
right, or use your choice of words, but they still need to be said.

To Kenneth:  Ken, realize that you have become a MAJOR contributor to the
list.  Understand that it would be easy for people to think that you are
trying to take over things, and that you are harping on the same thing.  You
sometimes see things differently than the rest of us. This is good, but
recognize that we might not at first see the relationships you see, or the
points you share.  Keep on posting.  Do what you do best, fix things.

To Everyone else (about Ken):  Understand that Ken does love Traveller.  If
he didn't he would be here and he wouldn't post as often as he does.  Also
realize that he has his viewpoint of Traveller, just as we each do.  It is
no more invalid than any of our viewpoints.  Also, if it seems that Ken is
pushing his fixes, realize that he has spent a lot of time working on them,
and he wants a corrected final project.

To Joe:  Joe, realize that, whether you can tell it is there, you are a
biased commentator.  When you started receiving a check from IG (whether
directly or indirectly) you had a vested interest in their success.  This in
no way means that you can't contribute.  Nor does it mean that your
contributions are invalid.  It means that you might have to work a little
harder to see clearly.  Please, keep commenting, and keep working hard.
(Personally, what little hope I have still for IG lies with you, Stu, and
the rest of CORE.)  Also, Joe, realize that whether by desire or in
reluctance, you tend to gravitate to leadership.  Many of us look to you to
see what you think before making a final decision.  Cherish that respect, it
is hard to earn.  Keep doing what you are doing, working hard to make future
Traveller products a success.

To Allen:  Allen, realize that sometimes you will not like what other people
say.  Accept that, and if necessary, reply to the person.  Don't judge me
too harshly based on my word choice, but also don't loose your fervor for
Traveller.  Accept my hand and let this fireball fall to the ground.
Understand that, while se disagree on the choice of my words, we are both
standing shoulder to shoulder where the success of Traveller is concerned.
It is the path that that success must take that we differ on.

To Twolf:  I'm not sure if you will get this, but PLEASE, PLEASE come back.
You cannot help Traveller succeed by leaving the TML.  If you don't like
what Ken is posting, say so, then flood him off the list with good posts.
Post worlds, aliens, ships, adventure ideas, and much more stuff.  Lead by
example.  Many people will follow that example, and the day will come when
posts like mine and Kenneth's will be the far exception to the norm, and we
even might get it through our thick skulls that they don't fit in before we
post them.



To EVERYONE:  Can we please just end the fighting.  Craig Berry recently
sent the THUDDD ballots out.  I read something while I was browsing his pages...

>The purpose of THUDDD is to foster friendly competition among those designing
>spacecraft for the Traveller universe, using the several design systems
>available.

We can't have a friendly competition if we aren't friends, now can we.
Let's all show how mature we are and end the fighting here.  Put a tap on
the bile and let it drain out on the floor, then clean it up and throw it
out.  I'll be the first, I'm throwing out the ill will, and I'm trying here.

I'm extending a hand here, someone take it.

(BTW, Doug, how much does it cost to have a faucet installed on the bile
duct? :)

Trying to call a truce,

    Paul {tiger}
     tiger@goldinc.com
     http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:19:19 +0000
From: "Doctor Vince" <drvince@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: An Open Letter to the List

Hi Suzette,

I'm sending this both to you and the list. I hope you don't mind.

> The tone of the list has gotten to such that I can't abide reading it 
> anymore. The posts have devolved into infantile attacks... Its not 
> worth the depression, its not worth the headaches, its not worth 
> crying over personal, insensitive, obnoxious attacks on friends.

There is an increase in negativity in tone on this list. However, 
just leaving the list isn't going to help matters. While I don't 
condone the ad hominem attacks on Twolf (or for that matter the 
attack on Ken Bearden that started this), you can't deny that there 
are real issues at the heart of the matter. I feel that the 
unresponsiveness of IG to issues brought up on the list makes for 
a poor business descision on IG's part. Statistics show that on 
average one dissatisfied customer speaks to 20 people about their bad 
experience. What's worse, the TML is a body of people who are (or at 
least *were*) IG's biggest support group. It should be a telling 
diagnostic when your core audience starts shopping for GURPS 
translations, or CORPS or what have you.

Twolf's problem is that by bringing this up (and I will admit that 
the tone of late is less constructive than it should be) he felt is 
was merely whining, and he was tired of reading it. It is, of course, 
his right to delete any "whine" TML traffic that comes through. To 
waste more bandwidth with a "you guys are stupid" message and then 
unsubscribing is less than helpful at remedying the situation.

> 
> I'm leaving, but I'll be around for a day or two to watch your 
> reactions. I wouldn't want to be called a sniveling whining coward 
> by anyone.

Personally, I hope you reconsider. TML needs more constructive 
voices. I am not (and you seem not to be) quite the gearhead that 
others here are, but I have found your comments insightful.

That being said, I should also say that I found Twolf's comments 
childish. That is, in and of itself, and ad hominem attack, but it's 
the case. People on the list seem really fed up with everything about 
the IG issue (ie unresponsiveness, poor product et al.). I think that 
IG has a reason to feel some heat on these issues. While you can't 
please everyone all the time, the fact that the product is 
inconsistent and self-contradictory, with rules and practices that 
are not adequately explained serves to hurt the game. There are many 
long time Traveller fans on the list (of which I am one). I was very 
sad to see GDW go under (with more support TNE may (IMHO) have become 
a viable game).

I do think that IG has promised too much and delivered too little. If 
I were in charge, I'd do some things differently (and generate as 
much heat for blunders on TML, but mistakes are expected and to be 
corrected.). I think the customers on the list are tired of having to 
buy the rules and sourcebooks twice, and at elevated prices to boot. 
Part of the role of the list is to point out these shortcomings. 

> To Ken Bearden:  I hope someday you realize that you have sunk from 
> someone whose posts I read gladly to someone whose posts I ceased to 
> read. I hope you can come to see yourself as at least some of the 
> rest of us have. I even personally invited you to Traveller Chat once 
> :-(

This whole paragraph does nothing to alleviate the situation. You 
too, now, have stooped to an ad hominem attack. If Ken's tone was 
disturbing to you, send him private email about this. Personally, he 
started the IG positive thread to say good things about the company 
and tell them what we want to see more of. That was a great idea, and 
that thread died ignominously. He also posted at length about how 
Emporer's Arsenal was a great thing. He came up with a great fix to a 
ill-tested task system. While I can't speak for his character, Ken's 
posts are one of the things that makes TML worth it. Why is he the 
bad guy now? Simply because he has a lower threshold for cock-ups 
from IG? As it stands now, IG is perilously close to having their 
core audience leave its product and stop trying to get other people 
involved. That isn't whining, it's a fact. I would hate to see T4 
die, but I don't hold much faith in it surviving unless they can make 
some big changes and implement them quickly.

My nutshell position is this: ad hominem attacks are worthless. While 
I haven't been following the "IG sucks" thread (ah the wonders of a 
delete key), my interpretation is that some people on the list would 
rather stifle dissent rather than just not listen. Unfortunately 
whining is in the ear of the listener. Being the first person to yell 
"shut up" make the yeller the bad guy, not the whiner. If you don't 
want to read something, don't.

> Twolf and I are *not* the only ones in my close circle of friends and 
> husband on the list who has or will unsubscribe. Maybe we'll try 
> again in a few months, maybe not.

Well, from this little portion of the TML: "So long." No one is 
irreplacable, and wicked sorry that your feelings got hurt in the 
process, but as far as namecalling is concerned, you post seems more 
willing to perpetuate it than to end it. I'm sorry you are leaving 
under less than auspicious circumstances.

Vince 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The passion of lovers is for death...
                                    -Bauhaus
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
  Vince Coccia, distinguished legal counsel for 
  His Infernal Majesty, is: drvince@ix.netcom.com
- --------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 16:13:51 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: Re: Computer Tech

- ----------
> From: Mike Sellers <msellers@ricochet.net>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Cc: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Computer Tech
> Date: Tuesday, April 29, 1997 12:52 PM

> I _think_ you're talking about a method for manufacturing prototypes.
> Under one method, a laser is traced across a pool of semi-liquid plastic
> (very small balls in one case), which solidifies where the laser traced.
> This solid layer is then lowered into the pool, and another layer is
> traced.  This continues, building up a complex 3D shape out of plastic.  

Ahh, Stereo Lithography.  We're contemplating buying one of those at work.
It would come in real handy.  Heck we just spent $20k on a PCB prototyper.
The PCB prototyper has already paid for itself at least once over, since
we do a lot of quick-turn boards.

But no, the device I'm thinking of is something else.  For one thing, when
you turn off the lasers, the balls (beads, dust, whatever..) lose their 
form and fall back to the bottom of the unit.  Stereo lithography devices
make a permanent item.  

This was all highly experimental at the smallest scale even two years ago.
It was being used as a tool to understand and test certain properties of
atomic clusters and molecules.  Using it as a sort of solid hologram that
could be interacted with is purely my own idea.  If I had the time, I'd go
find some references to it, but UF is 45 minutes away.  (sigh)  I wanted to

go last weekend, but my daughter has the chicken pox.


Last night I had another idea for interesting innovations.  This one would
be a hybrid of your standard storage locker and the force fields that hold 
in the air on an open hanger deck.  If you figure that the field is causing

the air at the interface to solidify to a certain degree, then you could
use this principle to solidify the air inside of lockers and other storage 
spaces, even the cargo hold, to hold the stored items down.  This would be
useful in an open cargo hold, to replace the tie downs that would normally
keep the cargo in place.  It wouldn't be a good idea to walk into it
however,
since you'd suffocate. Hmm, maybe it could be used as a ranged weapon, or 
even an anti-hijacking device.  

	...After securing the surviving crew, strange that there were so few
	of them, we advanced to the bridge where we were met with no resistance.
	Pol took the pilot's seat and I took the sensor station.  As Barg took
	his place at the weapons console the air seemed to shimmer for a split
	second, then I was seized by a horrible pain in my chest.  I couldn't
	breath!!  I could hardly move, it was if the air had turned to molasses.
	Instantly I knew my only chance for survival was to leave the bridge.
	I clawed my way to the hatch through a sea of invisible mud and just
	reached it, ah air!.  The last thing I remember is rolling over and
	seeing a blaster pointed at my face, then something hard hit me in
	the side of the head...

Nasty stuff really.  It won't work if you have a sealed suit or battle
dress
on, but it's pretty effective otherwise.

 

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 13:27:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: What the #%$* is going on here!

What is going on with the list?  I have been so busy posting starships and 
house rules variants that I have failed to see what has transpired!  Usualy 
I just bypass "flame warz" by reading the topic line, but now some people I 
consider very good friends, and part of the "Traveller Family" I mentioned 
in an earlier post, have become very upset.  This has made me upset as well.

What caused all this, more importantly why?  How can we rectify the 
situation?  This is a GAME for christsakes, why should we be at each others 
throats?  This is NOT what MM had in mind when he created the game.

I had thought I would never see the day when such things would happen here, 
I enjoy this game and talking to people about it, hell I love doing the 
ISBA!

What I ask is only an end to this war, before we end up in little "factions" 
and end up sending "Virus" after each other.  This is an alegory, an not 
intended to be a joke.  Do we want to kill Traveller?

I for one do not!

I will continue to monitor the TML, but for now, I will not be posting 
except to ISBA until this situation is resolved, It seems to be flooding my 
mailbox.

We keep the Flame, good night, and good luck.
Commander X

<Suddenly the whole of Planet X, the great massive space station that it is, 
produces a blue-white gridwork upon its surface.  And Suddenly in a 
blue-white flash, it is gone.>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 09:41:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: May 97 THUDDD entries (0/5)

                             THUDDD 4: May 1997
                             Exploratory Trader
                                      
Specifications

   The vessel to be produced is an exploratory trader. The design is
   being commissioned by the Imperial government (through the Ministry of
   Commerce); their intent is that vessels of this class will be
   purchased and operated by megacorporations and possibly smaller
   speculative enterprises. Subsidies are under consideration.
   
   The following requirements must be met:
     * Size: 3000 dt or less
     * Jump: J2 or more
     * Acceleration: 1G or more
       
   The vessel must be capable of:
     * Wilderness refueling (directly or via carried craft)
     * Operation for 1+ year away from starport facilities (repair,
       resupply, recreation, etc.)
     * Landing/retrieving crew and cargo on planetary surfaces (directly
       or via carried craft)
     * Defense against similarly sized TL 11- spacecraft
       
   Defense against relic TL 12+ weaponry should also be considered.
   
   Provision must be made for security of landing parties and the care of
   wounded crew members.
   
   The purpose of this vessel is exploratory trade, well beyond the
   Imperial frontier. As such, normal economic analysis based on
   intra-Imperial trade profitability does not apply well to this vessel.
   However, as with any trader, a higher percentage of hull volume
   devoted to cargo implies higher profits -- if the requirements above
   are also met. The same comments apply to the vessel's price.
   
Winners

   To be announced May 27.  Voting closes May 25.
   
Entrants

   Recollet-class Exploratory Trader Famille Spofulam Yards
   Roderick Darroch Elliott
   rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca SSDS Beta .pdf

   Encounter Class Exploratory Trader Long Yards
   John Long
   jlong@wilmington.net SSDS

   Anderson class exploratory trader Imperial Shipping
   Nick Munn
   N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk QSDS 1.5

   Elisabeth Class Frontier Trader X-TEK
   Bill Prankard
   BPRANKARD@theiia.org QSDS 1.5 plus Huge Table of Hulls

   Ming Class 2000-ton Exploratory Trader Quiptech, Inc.
   Paul Walker
   tiger@goldinc.com QSDS, FFS, Big Hulls

   Cristobal Colon Class Exploratory Cruiser, Mercantile Aurelian
   Industries
   Steven T. Charlton
   scharlto@ifsna.com QSDS plus Huge Table of Hulls

   Knarr Class Exploratory Trader Sefreth Shipyards Ltd.
   Chris Pearsall
   crisp@mail1.halcyon.com SSDS

   Nuphraitelle class exploratory merchant Starwerx Orbital Foundry
   Jeff Cornish
   jeffreyc@sprynet.com SSDS

   Monte Cristo Class Exploratory Merchant Morell Shipyards Corporation
   LIC
   Brian A. Howard
   bruadh@southwest.net SSDS

   Terrapin Exploratory Merchant Cruiser Gridlore Technologies
   Douglas E. Berry
   dberry@hooked.net SSDS/FFS

   Type 1108 - Exploratory Trader Generica Starships
   Mark Clark
   clarkm@OIT.EDU QSDS 1.5, BBoH

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 09:42:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: May 97 THUDDD entries (1/5)

                                      
  Recollet-class Exploratory Trader
  
   Designer: Roderick Darroch Elliott rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca
   Firm: Famille Spofulam Yards
   System: SSDS Beta .pdf

Tons: 500 Std (Wedge SL)  Volume: 7,000 m^3              Cost: 226 MCr
Crew: 11 (8)              High/Mid Pass: 8 (11)          Low: 10
Cargo: 102 Std            Controls: TL12 hiauto (Bridge) TL: 12

08 Size                               03 Jump Drive (50 Std/Pc Fuel)
                                      02 Maneuver (T-plate, 250 Mw)
02x 251 Mj laser (04) 1/03-02-01-00   1.5 Power Plant (375 Mw)
                                      158 Fuel (Scoop 200, Refine 50)
                                      01 Sandcasters (TL-12, 30 Cans)
01x Min. Hang. (20 td Launch)         01 Nuclear Damper (30,000 km)
                                      A4 P4 J0 Sensors (0 Stealth/Cloak)
                                      20 Armor, 22 Structure

Crew Detail: 01 Command, 01 Pilot, 01 Astrogator, 01 Sensors, 5 (3)
Gunners, 01 Engineer, 01 (0) Steward.

   Famille Spofulam Yards is pleased to announce its entry for this
   month's THUDDD competition. FSY's philosophy for this ship class is
   that medium is better; several medium-size ships can cover more
   territory, visiting more systems, than a single large vessel. Thus, a
   megacorporation equipped with a fleet of Recollets, rather than a few
   large vessels, will be able to better explore the new markets on the
   fringes of the Imperium or beyond. As well, smaller entrepreneurs will
   be able to afford an extremely capable frontier trader. However, too
   small a vessel will have severe shortcomings in cargo capacity and
   defensive punch, not to mention small-craft and repair facilities.
   Thus, we here at FSY feel that a medium-sized vessel, capable of
   extended duration, with self-repair and small-craft facilities, good
   defenses, and fair cargo capacity, is the best approach to commercial
   exploration beyond the Imperial pale. Hence, the Recollet-class
   Exploratory Trader.
   
   The Recollet is built into a rock solid 500-ton streamlined
   wedge-configuration hull, stressed to 10 G's for atmospheric
   operations, and heavily armoured. The Recollet is equipped with fuel
   scoops capable of ingesting its full fuel load in slightly over 45
   minutes, and refining it in just over three hours. It is also equipped
   with a 40-ton hangar capable of accomodating a standard 20-ton launch
   (not included in MSRP) or serving as supplementary cargo or storage
   space. Other facilities designed to extend the Recollet's duration in
   the field include an electronics shop and a machine shop, and 2 years
   fuel storage for its 375 Mw Zhunastu Fusion Systems power plant. Its
   hold is capable of accomodating 102 tons of cargo, accessed via four
   large cargo hatches.
   
   The Recollet is capable of accelerations of up to 2Gs, driven by a
   Famille Spofulam Gravitics Thruster Plate unit, and boasts the longest
   range (3 parsecs) jump drive currently available.
   
   As it is designed to venture far beyond the protective umbrella of the
   Imperial Navy, the Recollet packs two 251 megajoule Ling Standard
   heavy lasers linked by MFD, as well as one nuclear damper and a
   sandcaster. The Recollet's weapons suite therefore provides
   significant firepower, and is capable of dealing with either laser or
   missile-equipped (typical of lower-TL cultures) opponents.
   
   As typical for FSY's civilian craft, accomodations are luxurious;
   command, sensor, flight deck, senior gunner, and engineering crew
   sleep in six large staterooms, while the gunners and steward each have
   a single small stateroom to themselves. Eight small staterooms are
   provided for middle passengers. Given that the Recollet will often be
   operated with a lower crew complement of three gunners (with the
   lasers being fired by the MFD gunner) and no steward, up to 11 middle
   passengers may be carried. Crew quarters may be shifted into smaller
   staterooms to accomodate High passengers if necessary. A sickbay is
   provided, as are 10 low berths.
   
   The result is a highly capable vessel with a surprisingly low price
   tag of only 226 Mcr (launch not included) which we here at FSY feel
   will become extremely popular among those venturing beyond the
   frontiers of the Imperium to seek fortune, adventure, and to increase
   the glory of the Imperium.
   
    Designer's comments (in no particular order):
    
     * I wanted to keep the vessel fairly small, for role-playing
       reasons; I think that the fewer NPC crew, the better.
     * In designing the weapons suite, I assumed that lower-TL opponents
       would likely to be relying heavily on nuke missiles for long-range
       offence; hence the damper. IMHO sandcasters also ought to be
       effective against missiles too. And the lasers could also be used
       as anti-missile defences.
     * The 10 low berths were included a) for freezing shot-up
       crewmembers and b) in case of misjump. Low passengers might also
       be safer in uncivilized parts of the universe, too.
     * Crew and passenger numbers in the USD are for full complement,
       with skeleton crew numbers in (parentheses).
     * An option which might be popular would be to remove the hangar in
       favour of cargo space, which would add 20 tons of cargo and cut
       0.162 Mcr from the ticket price. The shops could likewise be
       removed, adding a further 16 tons of cargo and lowering the ticket
       price a further 0.27 Mcr. However, I think that for a vessel with
       a partly exploratory vocation, they're more useful than the extra
       cargo capacity.
     * Sensors crew numbers came out to 1.4, which I rounded down. In
       general, I've assumed a fairly cross-trained crew.
     * I think that I've nailed the design specs this time. It's under
       3000 tons, exceeds the M & J drive specs, and is capable of
       wilderness refuelling. It's capable of double the 1-year field
       duration, landing crew either by itself or via small craft, and
       (IMHO) is capable of dealing with equal or lower-TL opponents. And
       it still carries a fair amount of cargo.
       
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
  Encounter Class Exploratory Trader
  
   Designer: John Long jlong@wilmington.net
   Firm: Long Yards
   System: SSDS

Tons: 2,000 std ( SL Wedge )  Volume: 28,000 m^3               Cost: 1,542.278
MCr ( 1,394.050 MCr )
Crew: 33/49 ( /HighAuto  )    Passengers High/Medium: 10/0     Passengers Low:
0( 8 Emerg. )
Cargo: 400.0 std              Controls: Survey Std ( /Bridge ) Tech Level: 12

9   Size Rating                      3   Jump Drive ( 200 std/pc fuel )
                                     3   Maneuver ( Thruster, 1,500 Mw )
                                     2   Power Plant Rating ( 4x500Mw 1x75Mw )

4xLaser Batteries (+4) 1/2-1-0-0   622   Fuel ( /Scoop:1.7 /Refine:6.2 )
                                     2   Sandcaster ( 30 cans )
                                     1   Nuclear Damper ( 15Mw )
                                     5   Meson Screen ( 25 Mw )
                                     0   Black Globe
2xMissile Cells (+4) 5/8     A10 P4 J0   Sensors
 w/ 15 Guided DetLaser 1d6/2 6G12   20   Armor,  28  Structure

1xEngineering Shop ( 6 std )    1xVehicle Shop ( 10 std )
2xSick Bays ( 8 std ea. )
1x50 ton recreation area (Buyer to determine interior arrangement and facilitie
s)
2x25 ton missle stoage bays (25std each)
2xMinimal Hangars ( 30 std craft )

Crew Details: 6 cmd, 2 mvr, 3 elc, 9 gun, 4 scr, 6 eng, 1 mtn, 4 crf, 10 trp, 0
 sci, 1 stw, 2 brk, 1 med"

    Notes:
    
   Long Yards is proud to announce the launch of its' Encounter Class
   Trader the Encounter. Answering the Imperium's call for a long long
   range "Exploratory Trading Vessel" to open up new markets beyond the
   frontier, we present the Encounter.
   
   The Encounter is a 2000 ton steamlined wedge with state of the art
   Jump-3, and 3g acceleration (4g with the 1g contra grav system used
   "close in to worlds"). Since it is expected to operate outside the
   frontier we have equipped the Encounter with 4 imprved heavey laser
   turrets, each with its' own MFD and gunner. Add to this the 2 heavey
   missle turrets with 25 tons of missle storage for each turret, and we
   feel that the Ecounter can well take care of itself in almost any
   "hostile situation". On the defensive side of the coin we have heavily
   armored the hull and installed 2 sandcaster turrets, each with its'
   own MFD. In addition to the "casters" we have equipped the Encounter
   with a 30,000 km nuclear damper, and a 25Mw meson screen.
   
   In addition we have installed a 16 bed sickbay, a vehicle shop, and an
   engineering shop to make the veesel as self sufficient as possible for
   those long voyages. We have also included 2, 30 ton minimal hangers
   for the ships auxilaries, (To be determined by the purchaser - not
   included in vessel price).
   
   Realizing that the Encounter would be operating "in the rough" we have
   installed fuel scoops that can scoop the full fuel load in 1.7 hrs and
   a purification plant that can have it ready to use in 6.2 hrs.
   
   Don't think for a minute that with all this "hardware" that we've
   forgotten the "software" that makes the Encounter run, On the contrary
   we have included 40 small staterooms and 12 large staterooms for the
   crew. In addition we have reserved a 50 ton area as a Recreation room
   that can be outfitted per the buyers wishes, to keep the crew happy
   and fit.
   
   Speaking of the crew in addition to the necessary ships' crew we've
   included room for 2 brokers, up to 4 small craft pilots and 10
   troops/security personnel. Adding the ability to carry 10 high
   passengers if necessary rounds out the accommodations.
   
   On top of all of these features we've not forgotten the prime mission
   of the vessel, TRADE. We've included 400 tons of cargo space for the
   ship that should prove more than adequate for those long exploratory
   trading voyages.
   
   On top of all these features we continue to provide what we feal is
   the best warranty in the business. If for any reason (other than
   normal wear or battle damage) on of our components or ships should
   fail we will replace it (Either the component or the ship) at no cost
   to the owner (Original purchasers only).
   
    Annual Financial Information
    
   (Note - some of this information valid only for commercial vessels)
   
   All amounts in credits (Cr). Information assumes 25 trips per year.

Down Payment  277,610,000.00

Income/Expenses                    Full Load     Standard Load
Cargo (minus luggage and mail)    19,250,000.00     15,500,000.00
Passengers                         2,500,000.00      2,000,000.00
Mail                                 625,000.00        625,000.00
Subsidy Payment                  (11,187,500.00)    (9,062,500.00)
Fuel                                       0.00       (311,000.00)
Life Support                      (2,950,000.00)    (2,850,000.00)
Maintenance                       (1,394,050.00)    (1,394,050.00)
Berthing                              (2,500.00)        (3,000.00)
Salaries                          (1,834,800.00)    (1,834,800.00)
Profit/Loss                        5,005,950.00      2,669,450.00

Income/Expenses             Maintenance Load
Cargo (minus luggage and mail)     3,950,000.00
Passengers                           500,000.00
Mail                                 625,000.00
Subsidy Payment                   (2,537,500.00)
Fuel                              (1,244,000.00)
Life Support                      (2,550,000.00)
Maintenance                       (1,394,050.00)
Berthing                              (4,500.00)
Salaries                          (1,834,800.00)
Profit/Loss                       (4,490,050.00)

SSDS Design Template
Ship Name   Encounter
Ship Class  Encounter Class
Ship Description  Exploratory Trader
Ship Designer  "Long Yards,  John Long Chief Architect"
Design Tech Level  12
Subsidized design?  Yes

Item  Hull   #  Cd  Notes  Mass  Vol  Area  Power  Cost  Mx  En  Gn  El
  Size            20      2000    -28000.00  -6450.0
  Configuration    3      Wedge
  Streamlining     2      Streamlined
  Length          90.0 meters
  Internal structure    6    414.90  27.66      0.39
  Armor    20      1383.00  92.20      0.90
  Required airlocks  20      4.00  60.00  40.0  0.02  0.10
  Extra airlocks  0      0.00  0.00  0.0  0.00  0.00

Drives    #  Cd    Notes  Mass  Vol  Area  Power  Cost  Mx  En  Gn  El
Jump    1  3    Jump-3  3360.00  1120.00  373.0    336.00  0.24  1.40
Jump fuel    3      3 Parsecs    8400.00
Contra-grav  1  1    1-G  266.70  400.00  400.0  133.40  40.00  0.02  0.50
Thrusters  1  3      3-G  3000.00  1500.00  300.0  1500.00  375.00  0.21  1.88


Weapons    # / Bt  Mfd  ROF  Notes  Mass  Vol  Area  Power  Cost  Mx  En  Gn  E
l
Heavy lasers  4 / 4  4  3  (+4) 1/2-1  683.16  438.40  76.0  96.04  112.12  0.0
7    4.00
Heavy missile lnhr  2 / 2    2  (+4) 5/8  265.20  410.40  44.0  12.70  102.70
0.04    2.00

Defences    # / Bt  Mfd    Notes  Mass  Vol  Area  Power  Cost  Mx  En  Gn  El
Sandcasters  2 / 2  2    2 (30 cans)  162.20  135.20  26.0  8.20  52.80  0.02
  2.00
Nuclear dampers  1 / 1      "30,k km"  76.20  83.00  7.5  15.00  2.05  0.01
1.00
Meson screens  1 / 2      177  380.00  507.00  250.0  25.00  50.70  0.08    4.0
0

Electronics  #  Cd    Notes  Mass  Vol  Area  Power  Cost  Mx  En  Gn  El
Controls  3          8.40  84.00    2.00  9.00  0.00
Automation Level    3    High  \
Electronics Package  1  4    Survey  59.34  76.36  327.8  79.82  53.80  0.00
   3.50

Life Support  #  Cd    Notes  Mass  Vol  Area  Power  Cost  Mx  En  Gn  El
Life Support  1  2    Standard  224.00  224.00    5.60  14.00
Artificial Gravity  1        560.00  280.00    140.00  14.00  0.04

Equipment  #  Cd  Ex  Notes  Mass  Vol  Area  Power  Cost  Mx  En  Gn  El
Engineering shop  1        40.00  84.00    0.60  1.00
Machine shop  1        120.00  140.00    1.00  2.00
Sickbay  2          100.00  224.00    1.60  10.00
Minimal hangar  2  3    30std craft  336.00  1680.00  170.0    0.52
Recreation area  1      50 std  200.00  700.00    30.00  5.00
Missle Storage  2      25 std Ea  250.00  700.00    5.00  1.20
Fuel scoops  3      1.7 hours      967.5    0.07
Fuel purification plant  2  1    6.2 hours  1120.00  560.00    8.40  0.22


Power Plants  #  Cd  Ex  Notes  Mass  Vol  Area  Power  Cost  Mx  En  Gn  El
Fusion plant  4  8    500  4000.00  1000.00  -2000.00  200.00  0.28  2.34
Fuel    1.0      1 year    300.00
Fusion plant  1  5    75  150.00  37.50  -75.00  7.50  0.01  0.09
Fuel    1.0      1 year    11.25

Crew    #  Cd  Ex  Notes  Mass  Vol  Area  Power  Cost  Mx  En  Gn  El
Maintenance  1  1
Engineering  6  6
Electronics    3  3
Maneuver    2  2
Gunnery    9  9
Screens    4  4
Small craft    4
Troops    10
Command    6  6
High Passengers  10
Stewards    1  1
Brokers    2
Medical    1  1
Total Regular Crew  18  18
Total Crew    49
Total Personnel  59
Crew Stations  #  Cd  Ex  Notes  Mass  Vol  Area  Power  Cost  Mx  En  Gn  El
Workstations  10  6      2.00  70.00      0.02
Bridge workstations  22  20    Required  4.40  308.00      0.03

Quarters    #  Cd  Ex  Notes  Mass  Vol  Area  Power  Cost  Mx  En  Gn  El
Small staterooms  40        80.00  1120.00    0.02  1.60
Large staterooms  12        48.00  672.00    0.01  1.20
Emer. low berths  2        4.00  56.00    0.00  0.20

Additional Space  #  Cd  Ex  Notes  Mass  Vol  Area  Power  Cost  Mx  En  Gn  E
l
Extra fuel    50        0.00  700.00
Cargo space  400          7000.00
Large cargo hatch  4  20          80.0    0.08
Small cargo hatch  4  0          48.0    0.05
Waste space          0.00    0.00
Totals            17351.50  -199.03  -3340.3  -10.58  1394.05  1.02  6.20  13.0
0  3.50

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, May 20 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1349



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: In my opinion ....
May 97 THUDDD entries (5/5)
May 97 THUDDD entries (2/5)
May 97 THUDDD entries (4/5)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 18:51:24 +0200
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Re: In my opinion ....

I don't have followed all the discussions before, but I want to give my
point of view on this kind of trouble.

Steven E. Brengard wrote:

>In my opinion I see 'offended' personalities as a sign the direction 
>the World Community is headed, and it's a damn shame. I believe 
>that most members of the list live and work within the national 
>boundaries of the United States. Last time I checked, the 
>constitution still protected the right of free speech. Every US 
>citizen is entitled to free speech. If someone chooses to express 
>there option, no matter if with taste or without, so be it. It is 
>this same right that allows all of us to respond to such opinions. 
>If you do not like a post or opinion, that great! If you like and 
>support an opinion or post, that's great too!

Adult People don't get offended because of different opinion. They are
offended because they were insulted! Your constitution give you of free
speech, good! French one too! So the contitution gave you a tool. Now you
can use it correctly (do not understand politically correct!). Education is
supposed to learn you how to use it, it's called respect and politness,
have you heard about it?


>But lets  be adults about it all. This liberalist  path the US 
>has taken UPSETS me. That's right, its getting so bad that 
>no one can say anything without offending someone. Get over 
>it. We all live in a world of differing opinions. You MUST 
>accept that other have differing opinions then yours, and you 
>MUST accept that they are entitled to their opinions. You may 
>not agree with those opinions, but that simply does not invalidate 
>them. 

I've always assumed that my rights always stop where others' begin. That's
why I never permit myself of insulting others (except if I've been severly
insulted meaningless first). 
Arguing, giving opinions, points of view, free speech doesn't mean that you
are allowed to be disrespectful of others! Oh I forgot, the constitution
give you this right!


>So if you need to run away because someone's comments offended 
>you, so be it. But you'll be running for the rest of your life. People
>will continue to offend one another all over the world, and running 
>away will not solve that. 

Civilized poeple don't insult each other when they disagreed. I understand
why several people want to leave such place. They just want to meet more
adult people! 


>Oh, and if I offended anyone, tough sh!t. Deal with it.

That's all the problem!

- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 09:51:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: May 97 THUDDD entries (5/5)

                                      
  Terrapin Exploratory Merchant Cruiser
  
   Designer: Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
   Firm: Gridlore Technologies
   System: SSDS/FFS

Tons: 2400 (Cylinder SL)   Volume: 33600 m3       Cost: 912.8974 MCr
Crew: 49                   High/Mid Pass: 10      Low Pass: 30
Cargo: 852 tons            Controls: Std(Bridge)  TL: 12

9 Size                          3 Jump Drive (240 tons/Pc Fuel)
4 Fire Control                  1G Maneuver (Thruster plate, 462 MW)
4x Laser Batteries (3x 95 Mj)   0.9 Power Plant (1057 MW)
(+1) 2-0-0-0                    731.3 Fuel (Scoop 1920, Refine 6)
                                2 Meson Screen (2 MW)
                                6 Sandcasters (180 cans)
1x spacious hangar (90-ton)     1 Nuclear Damper (15 MW)
2x Sick Bay                     10A 5P 4J Sensors
Machine/Electronic Shops        20 Armor, 16 Structure
Laboratory

Crew: 2 Maneuver, 3 Electronics, 4 Engineer, 10 Gunnery, 5 Maintenance,
      12 Ship's Troops, 3 Flight, 1 Medic, 4 Command, 5 Science

Accom: 34 small staterooms, 30 low berths

1x 90 ton "Terrapin Transit" 90t shuttle.

   Inspired by Sir Arameth Gridlore's own legendary travels beyond Sylean
   space, and drawing heavily on his experiences, Gridlore Technologies
   and Trans-C Naval Architects are proud to introduce the -Terrapin-
   Class Exploratory Trader.
   
   The -Terrapin- is an 80m cylinder, flared slightly at the aft for
   better control when wilderness refueling. The ship devotes over a
   third of its gross displacement to cargo storage, enough to prove
   profitable on any run. But there is more to the -Terrapin- than
   carrying freight!
   
   The -Terrapin- is equipped with powerful Quinn-Arturo "Phase III" jump
   drives, allowing jump 3. Standard thrusters grant constant
   acceleration of 1g, and can be overdriven for brief periods if
   necessary. Power is provided by a custom-designed X-tek Fusion plant,
   and is fueled for one year's operation at full load.
   
   The electronics suite has been designed with the idea that most places
   the -Terrapin- travels will not have local travel control. Active EMS
   sensors are accurate out to 10 LS, passive sensors to 5. This allows
   early detection of any threat, to allow the maximum decision time for
   the Captain. Communications are routed through either a .3 Mw maser
   array, or broadcast by the 1 Mw radio system. Defensive EMS systems
   include a standard EMS jammer (120k km radius) and a strong area
   jammer (90k km radius.)
   
   If the worst comes, this turtle has teeth! Mounting twelve Isher
   Artifact L-1013 95 Mj laser turrets, organized into four batteries by
   Navy standard FDC-11A2 master fire direction centers, the ship can
   bring effective fire on its enemies. (Note: no allowance has been made
   for direct turret control. All weapons are operated from the MFC.)
   While these powerful beams slice at your foe, you can feel secure,
   guarded by thick armor, 6 sand casters, a *15 Mw* nuclear damper, and
   a 2 Mw meson screen. It isn't a warship, but the -Terrapin- can
   certainly hold her own in a fight.
   
   Interface operations will normally be carried out be the -Terrapin
   Transit- shuttle, included in the purchase price.

Terrapin Transit Shuttle
- -
Tons: 90 (Wedge AF)       Volume: 1260 m3        Cost: 28.45 MCr
Crew: 2                   High/Mid Pass: 0       Low Pass: 0
Cargo: 67 tons            Controls: Std          TL: 12

7 Size0                        No Jump drive
0 Fire Control                 3 Maneuver (Thruster plate, 51.975 MW)
                               1.6 Power Plant (74 MW)
                               0.8 Fuel (Scoop 36)
                               0 Meson Screen (0 MW)
                               0 Sandcasters (0 cans)
                               0 Nuclear Damper
                               2A 1P 0J Sensors
                               10 Armor, 7 Structure

Crew: 1 Maneuver, 1 Electronics
Accom: Seats Adequate x 55

   The ship has a crew of 49, including a full squad of security
   personnel and berths for a five person research/science section. The
   science section is intended to include such personnel as linguistic
   sophontologists, historians, and others to assist in making contact
   with worlds that may not have seen a Starship since Twilight.
   -Terrapins- have ten small staterooms for passengers. When no
   passengers are boarded, the spare rooms are designed to be used for
   extra berthing space to relieve stress, or as crew recreation
   facilities. Also standard are thirty low passage berths. Workshops are
   provided, capable of fabricating any but the largest, most complex
   parts. Technical specifications are provided in both computer and hard
   format to aid repairs, and most systems having self-diagnostic/repair
   aid programs. A general purpose laboratory can be found on "C" deck.
   This small facility is not designed for in-depth research, but will
   suffice for most inquiries. The ship's sick bay can accommodate up to
   16 patients in a pinch, though 10 is standard.
   
   A word about cost. Many designers prefer to work with modular
   components, accepting "close enough" as a substitute for workmanship,
   and then claim that the savings in cost justifies the act. Don't be
   fooled. When you are 50pc from the nearest help, close enough isn't
   good enough. Trans-C goes to the trouble of designing to the most
   exacting tolerances because we feel your life is worth it. Don't you
   agree?
   
    Design Notes:
    
   I have tried to balance merchant and exploratory missions with the
   Terrapin, and feel that it works well in both roles. The fairly large
   cargo capacity, along with the passenger complement, means that the
   ship is profitable; while the strong sensors and on-board labs make
   the ship a reasonable scout cruiser.
   
   This design used the excellent spreadsheet "ss-v2.xls" I can't
   remember where I found it, but my hat is off to the author, this is
   very easy to use.
   
   This is a ship for adventures. This is the reason behind the large
   cast of scientists and soldiers. You can boldly go where no one has
   gone before (or, at least for 2000 years...) and play a variety of
   adventures; not just merchant, but military, diplomatic, deep space
   fighting..
   
   Hope you enjoy! as always, comments and questions welcome.
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
  Type 1108 - Exploratory Trader
  
   Designer: Mark Clark clarkm@OIT.EDU
   Firm: Generica Starships
   System: QSDS 1.5, BBoH

Tons: 3000 Std (Cylinder Airframe)               Cost: 1093.1 MCr
Crew: 72                 High/Mid Pass:  10/10   Low: 16 (Emergency)
Cargo: 1000 Std          Controls: Military      TL: 12

Size: 26                      3 Jump (900 Std fuel)
                              2 Manuever (Thrust plate, 1500 MW)
2x Civ Laser (0)1/2-0-0-0  2500 MW Fusion (2x1000, 1x500)
2x Civ Missile Turret       927 Fuel (Scoop 1200, Refine 10)
                              6 Meson Screen
                             20 Sandcaster
1x 30T Spacious Hanger       10 Nuclear Damper
2x 30T Docking Ring         A10 P4 J10 Sensors
1x 10T Spacious Hanger       20 Armor, 28 Structure

Crew: 7 Engineers, 2 Electronics, 2 Manuever, 34 Gunners, 1 Screens
      6 Small Craft, 6 Troops, 10 Command, 2 Stewards, 2 Medical

   The Type 1108 is designed as mobile exhibition platform for the
   development of trade in relatively unknown regions, following routes
   just surveyed by the IISS. Designed to exhibit the best Imperial
   industry has to offer for trade, the ship is a mobile sales office for
   the aggresive megacorporation.
   
   The primary mission of an exploratory trader is to exhibit imperial
   technology to new markets. The large cargo capacity of 1000 tons
   standard is available as a single large bay, allowing a wide variety
   of goods to be carried, regardless of bulk. Power, life support, and
   gravity are supplied in the bay to allow product exhibits to mounted
   aboard. Since many products need sales personel to show them off to
   best advantage, 10 large and 10 smaller cabins are provided for
   company representatives. The ship's exterior is equiped with a
   graphics overlay (originally developed for military applications),
   which allows display of advertising material while the Type 1108 is in
   port.
   
   Crew security is highly important in non-Imperial areas. The Type 1108
   mounts a large defensive weaponry system consisting of 20 sandcasters,
   10 nuclear dampers, and a meson screen (proper Imperial permits
   required). Although 2G drives are fitted, the hull is stressed to 6G
   to allow for agressive atmospheric manuevering using the airframe
   controls. The weapons systems are designed to be defensive in nature,
   with only limited offensive weaponry - standard practice is for the
   Type 1108 to jump at less than full capacity, allowing rapid re-jump
   if needed. A collapsable tank holding 300 tons of fuel is provided as
   standard equipment, allowing the regular tanks to be filled in jump if
   desired.
   
   For interaction with planetary population, the Type 1108 allows
   several options. The ship itself can land (the prefered method of
   operation), with the large gunnery contigent and dedicated ship's
   security force providing security. They are aided by 20 TL-12 security
   robots of the latest type (price included), linked to the ship's
   security system and anti-hijack program. If a direct landing is not
   desired, one of the three 30T fast boats can land from orbit, limiting
   crew exposure. Finally, in highly uncertain situations, the crew can
   make use of one of four onboard Companion-type robots, which can
   operate either independantly as negociators or as virtual-reality
   linked contact scouts. When not used in a contact role, the Companions
   are programmed to function as stewards, using protocols developed for
   Generica passenger liners. Price of the Companion robots is included
   in the ship price.
   
   For long-term operation support, an engineering shop and a vehicle
   shop are fitted. Depending on operational profile, standard components
   can be carried in the cargo compartment, to be fabbed for final use by
   the universal machining rig in the engineering shop. The spacious
   hanger allows full maintenance to be carried out on the ship's boats,
   up to and including full overhaul. A fuel purification system is
   carried to allow operations in wilderness areas.
   
   To ensure crew health, a four bed sickbay is fitted, along with an
   emergency low berth with 16 person capacity. A laboratory is fitted as
   well, to allow both medical analysis and the testing of trade goods
   aquired during trading trips.
   
   The ship price includes three 30T fast boats (one in hanger, two in
   docking rings), two Rolen Politesse luxury grav cars for crew use on
   planet, and four grav trucks (in the smaller hanger). Other mixes of
   vehicles are avalible on request. All boats and vehicles use Fusion+
   powerplants, allowing demonstration of its advantages to customers.
   
   The crew is housed in small staterooms, with large staterooms for the
   command staff. These generous space allocations are reflected in the
   fine appointments that allow for crew comfort and relaxation
   (supported by the Companion stewards, who care for the crews needs in
   every way). additional space is provided by the 300T demountable tank
   that makes up one third of the standard cargo space. Disassembled in
   jump, it provides 225T free space with full life support for
   recreation. This space can also be used for additional cargo, though
   it limits jump to 2 in that case.
   
   Overall, the Type 1108 provides relatively inexpensive cargo carrying
   on a per ton basis with good defensive and security capabilities and
   long-term endurance. We hope it meets your needs.
   
    Comments:
    
   Can't add much to the comments above. Large size allows lots of cargo
   carried with plenty of room for defensive weapons. I rejected military
   grade laser weapons as provocative in a trader. The use of robots
   reflects a desire to provide more service with less cargo demand. I
   see this ship as more of a mobile store than a cargo freighter.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 09:48:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: May 97 THUDDD entries (2/5)

                                      
  Anderson class exploratory trader
  
   Designer: Nick Munn N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk
   Firm: Imperial Shipping
   System: QSDS 1.5

Hull details:  Airframe slab, max 4G, length 99 m [from SSDS data]

Tons:  2000  Volume:  28 000 m^3         Cost:  727.0 MCr
Crew:    49  High Pass:  2               Low Pass: 6 (+48)
Cargo:  100  Controls: Std mil., bridge  TL:  12

Size 09                          3 Jump (200 Td fuel/pc)
                                 1 Maneuver (thrusters)
                               + 1 Maneuver (HEPlaR) (2 hr)
                                 3 Powerplant (2570 MW)
1 x Mil. laser (+4) 1/4-4-3-2  650 Fuel (S 400, R 20)
4 x Civ. laser (+0) 1/2-0-0-0    2 Meson Screen (3 MW)
                                 4 Sand [30 ready each]
1 spacious hangar (100 Td)       1 Nuclear Damper (15 MW)
3 airframe grapples for     A10 P4 J10 Sensors
  20t, 30t, 50t                 30 Armour  25 Structure

Crew detail:  7 Engineers, 2 Electronics, 2 Maneuver, 10 Gunnery,
  1 Screens, 12 Auxilliary Craft, 6 Troops, 6 Command crew,
  2 Stewards, 1 Medical

  High passengers often scientists or company officials

Additional details:
  Advanced comm. package
  100 Td collapsible tanks in cargo space
   (leave 5 Td cargo when full)
  Engineering and vehicle shops near hangar
  Sickbay (2 person)
  Lab space (2 people)
  2 x 200 Td collapsible tanks in hangar area
  12 emergency low berths (hence +48 above)
  Crew in 43 small staterooms, command crew in 6 staterooms
    (slightly more space than usual in common areas)
  Concealed storage of 0.4 Td for contraband, firearms etc.

    Description:
    
   The Anderson class exploratory trader is a 2000 displacement ton
   vessel, intended for use in discovering trade goods and markets in
   unfamiliar space. Its most unusual features are a docking bay for a
   100-ton ship, intended for a 100-ton courier but usable by shuttles,
   and its array of collapsible tanks. One set of 200 Td tanks in the
   hangar may be used freely, though this restricts work on craft above
   50 Td displacement (add one level of difficulty to task). If the
   hangar is empty and gear stowed - which takes 12 person-hours - the
   second set of 200 Td tanks may be filled. Standard doctrine also has
   every small craft fitted with collapsible fuel tanks in their cargo
   hold, in order to jump to safety in the case of misjump.
   
   It is expected that the cargo hold will contain spare parts,
   consumables and trade goods. As the voyage progresses, these will be
   replaced by new trade items. Six low berths allow the transport of
   animal specimens or reserve crewmembers.
   
   A 1G HEPlaR drive is fitted as backup to the main thrusters, or for
   emergency acceleration. The powerplants are sufficient to power all
   components simultaneously, although only three 500 MW units are
   required for normal operation (no HEPlaR).
   
   Crew assignments vary, with troops sometimes replaced by scientific
   staff or assigned to small craft. The 12 auxilliary craft crew are
   four mechanics and eight crew members; in practice, they represent
   relief personnel for the main crew, and may not be assigned to one
   craft only.
   
   The price of this ship does not include the J3, 2G courier ship at MCr
   50.6, or any small craft. Common small craft selections are
     * cutter, spare module and launch
     * slow pinnace, ship's boat, gig
     * slow pinnace, heavy fighter, gig
       
   although the commercial availability of fighters is extremely low.
   
    Press Release, Imperial Shipping LIC (founded 009-001)
    
   In search of new markets? Need a fresh supplier of those lucrative
   extra-imperial goods? Then you need a ship which can get you there
   before the competition, keep you alive while you skim the cream from
   the local economies, and be on its way before rival firms are
   squabbling over the crumbs you've left them. You need Imperial
   Shipping's Anderson class Exploratory Trader, or you need a new job.
   Because if your competitors buy and you don't, pretty soon you'll need
   one.
   
   Let's be honest. It doesn't take an Anderson to jump three parsecs in
   a week. Wilderness refuelling is pretty common. Most ships carry a
   small craft or two. So what makes our ship so special? The clean lines
   of a 99m airframe hull?
   
   How about the way it's built around a massive 400 Td hangar? (It's
   nearly the size of some of our competitors' ships.)
   
   A hangar that houses a very special scoutship. We can't confirm that
   it's related to the latest Navy courier. Nor can we deny it. This
   lightly-armed ship can carry enough fuel for two 3-parsec jumps, using
   a collapsible fuel tank to maintain cargo capacity. When your trade
   information won't wait, you don't have to abandon your expensive
   mission -- just send the Type S3 courier.
   
   A hangar big enough for shuttles to pour trade goods into the ample
   100 Td cargo bay. Just the thing when you're receiving goods from
   civilisations that don't have Fusion Plus(TM) -- yet!
   
   A hangar which can be used as fuel storage, thanks to innovative use
   of collapsible tanks. (We've put them in the cargo bay, too.)
   
   We're nearly as pleased with our hangar as you'll be. Especially when
   you need the space for repairs. Or fuel. Or spares. Or an end-of-tour
   celebration.
   
   Of course, we supply fittings for a number of other small craft.
   However, we believe you're the best judge of your trading needs, so we
   don't force you to take some standard package of craft. Our advisers
   are always ready to help you choose, however, so you've still got all
   the power of Imperial Shipping's experience behind you.
   
   You've also got the power of our milspec laser battery, in case of
   trouble. Plus four secondary turrets. Four sandcasters. A nuclear
   damper, in case your potential trading partners haven't heard about
   the Imperial ban. A heavily-armoured hull. Even a meson screen.
   (Recent medical research indicates it reduces radiation exposure for
   deep space crews like yours.) And with our Navy-issue sensor gear,
   you'll see trouble coming before it sees you.
   
   If you need to run, you've got a HEPlaR drive to boost you away from
   trouble. And of course, two separate main drives means never having to
   say "sundive". Especially when the Anderson has five main 500 MW
   powerplants, runs on two, and cruises on three. Of course, our fuel
   purification plant keeps everything clean, but accidents -- and worse
   -- can happen. That's why we've included engineering and vehicle
   shops, to help your engineers keep things running smoothly.
   
   Keeping your crew running smoothly is as important as maintaining your
   drives, so we've included plenty of common space for recreation, as
   well as individual staterooms for every crewmember. We've left you
   space for a security detachment, plus a couple of high passengers. Or
   maybe you want a couple of top scientists to work in the on-board
   analysis lab? Again, it's your choice, because trading is your
   business. Designing quality starships is ours.
   
   And because of our key role in establishing standard, modular starship
   components throughout the Imperium, we're cheaper than you'd think.
   MCr 727 buys you more quality than the competition can stand. They
   know that too. Buy first. Buy now. Buy Anderson, from Imperial
   Shipyards.
   
   There's only one feature of the Anderson we hope you won't use: the
   emergency low berths. Still, at least you won't be there for the rest
   of your life, like on most ships. But then, they don't carry a
   scoutship capable of two 3-parsec jumps. Just high insurance premiums.
   
    Design Worksheet:
    
Component     Vol/Td    Area/m^2  Pwr/MW   MCr     Crew

Hull           543.1    95.1
Jump-3          80      373       336      1.8
HEPlaR 1G        8      112    1120     1.1      0.3
Thrusters       36      101     504   126      1.2
Mil controls     3.4        0.3     2.5    18.5
Std mil sensor   1.2       44.6    85.2    62.5      0.8
Advanced commo   0.0      203      21.5     2      0.8
Civ lasers (4)   12       40      53.2     5.6      4
Mil laser        20.3       62.1   203.1    34.6      1
4 sandcaster     12       40       4     3.2      4
Meson screen-2   4.3       30       3     6      0.1
Nuc damper-1     6       20      15     2      1
Engnr shop       6         0.6     1
Vehicle shop    10         1     2
Lab [for 2]      8         0.8     5
Sickbay [for 2]  8         0.8     5
Hangar         400   c. 200         1.3
Grapples        30      576         0.4
     45      762         0.6
     75     1129         1.1
Jump fuel  600
Purif. plant   48        10.1     0.3
Collaps. tanks   25           0.7
PP 5 x 500 MW   89.5         250      2
PP 50 + 20    2.5           7      0.1
27 Bridge wstn   27           0.054
8 lge stateroom   32         0.008   0.8
43 sm stateroom   86         0.0215  1.72
12 em. low   24         0.024   1.2
6 low berth    6         0.006   0.3
Cargo    100.4
Fuel     50

Totals: 1855.6 Td, 3693 m^2, 2568.7615 MW, MCr 969.374 before
discount.

    Design notes:
    
   I had to extrapolate a bit to get the 400 ton hangar, so maybe I
   should add MCr 0.3 to the final (discounted) price for that. The use
   of collapsible tanks in the hangar is a bit arguable, too, though at
   least 200 tons should certainly be possible. Other than that,
   everything is standard QSDS.
   
   I've gone for a real mix of features, on the basis that the ship will
   be an explorer rather than a trader. The emphasis is therefore on
   sample goods and knowledge, coupled with sustainability, rather than
   traditional trade performance. This explains the MCr 7.3 per cargo ton
   cost (although that doesn't allow for cargo aboard the small craft).
   The lab is symptomatic of this approach.
   
   The scoutship is key to this design, so I give details below. It's not
   a Navy Courier (which exists as an SSDS design with EMM and better
   sensors, etc.) but has identical performance. The ability to send data
   back to a parent company is invaluable to exploratory trade.
   
   I can't wait to tell a group of PCs "OK, you're crew of the
   exploratory trader _Harrison_, which has just misjumped badly. There's
   a single scoutship in which to get help, and you've been selected to
   fly it. Good luck."

Type S3 Scout/Courier (QSDS 1.5)

Nick Munn

Hull details:  Needle S, max 4G

Tons:  100    Volume:  1 400 m^3      Cost:  50.6 MCr
Crew:  6 (2)  High Pass:  0           Low Pass: 0
Cargo:  29.5  Controls: Std civilian  TL:  12

Size 09                          3 Jump (30 Td fuel/pc)
                                 2 Maneuver (thrusters)
                                 3 Powerplant (135 MW)
1 x Civ. laser (+0) 1/2-0-0-0   31 Fuel (S 20, R 0)
                                 0 Meson Screen (3 MW)
                                 0 Sand [30 ready each]
                                 0 Nuclear Damper (15 MW)
                          A2 P3 J0 Sensors
                                20 Armour  9 Structure

Crew detail:  1 Engineer, 1 Electronics, 2 Maneuver, 1 Gunnery,
              1 Command crew.  (Can be run by 2 people.)

Accomodation:  1 large stateroom, 2 small stateroom, 3 bunks

Other:  30-ton collapsible tank in cargo hold.
        Improved commo package
        Powerplant sizes: 75 MW + three 20 MW.
        PP fuel lasts c. 6 months.

     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
  Elisabeth Class Frontier Trader
  
   Designer: Bill Prankard BPRANKARD@theiia.org
   Firm: X-TEK
   System: QSDS 1.5 plus Huge Table of Hulls

2000Td Cylinder SL  28,000m^3                 Cost:1111.1Mcr
Crew: 44            Passengers(Staterooms): 9 High(Large)/35Mid(Small) Low:8(Em
ergency)
Cargo: 400Td        Controls: Mil/Fib(Bridge) TL-12

9 Size                     3 Jump (200Td/Pc Fuel)
                           2 Maneuver (Thrust Plates)
L Bay   (+4) 1/6-6-6-5     3 Power Plant(1x3000Mw, 1x200Mw, 1x50Mw)
L Bat-1 (+4) 1/2-2-0-0     714.7 Fuel (Scoops, Refine 50Td/Hr)
L Bat-2 (+4) 1/2-2-0-0     7 Meson Screen (50Mw)
L Bat-3 (+4) 1/2-2-0-0     4 Sandcaster (120 Cans)
L Bat-4 (+4) 1/2-2-0-0     4 Nuke Damper (240Mw, 60 Mw/each)

Hangar#1 10Td Ships Boat   Sensors: A10 P4 J10
Hangar#2 10Td Ships Boat   20 Armour   28 Structure
Hangar#3 Air Raft
Hangar#4 Air Raft

Extras:                    Crew: Maneuver=2, Engineer=6, Electronic=2, Gunners=
13, Screens=2
10 Bed Sickbay                   Troops=10, Command=6, Steward=2, Medical=1
Engineering Shop
Vehicle Shop
Lounge
Exercise Room

   The Elizabeth Class Frontier Trader is named after an ancient Solomani
   queen which ruled during a time when wooden ships plyed the seas in
   search of gold and trade. During that time rival kingdoms and pirates
   would prey upon these ships for their goods. The Queen was wise to
   protect her capital with well defended merchants. We in our new
   Imperuim see ourselves in a similar situation. A new, rich empire, in
   which envious pocket empires and pirates would prey upon our ships on
   the rim, especialy those going to Vland and the unsettled teritories.
   The Elizabeth takes the best military protection available, while
   still appearing to be a trading vessel.
   
   The Elisabeth is well defended, most of its armamaents are of a
   defensive, rather than offensive nature. The single military heave
   lasers insure that most missiles would be destroyed at a safe range.
   It has 4 Sandacsters to protect it from laser fire, and 4 Nuclear
   dampers should the enemy be dispicable enough to use nuclear arms. Its
   main gun is a 50Td TL-12 Laser Bay. This weapon will make the
   Elizabeth able to hold her own against capital ships roughly her size.
   As it is known that some uncontacted worlds may use relic RoM Meson
   Weapons, a Meson screen was also installed.
   
   There are 2 Ships Boats and 2 Air rafts on board as support and
   auxilary craft. Engineering and vehicle shops are instaled to provide
   self sufficency of the ship, as it may not be at a class a port for
   months at a time. Likewise, for the sake of the crew, comfort has been
   provided by a lounge and an exercise and recreation room. Medical
   facilitaies are also present should a crewmember become wounded or
   contract an ailment. If the crewmember becomes mortaly wounded or
   sick, emergency low berths are available to store the fallen comrade
   untill such time that he/she could be recessutated back home in Core.
   
   The Crew compliement mainly consists of security and gunnery, with
   engineering and command crew second, then the technical crew and
   finaly the service crew. This ship puts saftey and protection on the
   highest order, next to trade of course. It is one thing to get the
   goods from the world, its another to protect that precious cargo, and
   in the Frontier, there is no navy to protect you, one must be ready
   for any posible contingency. We believe that the Elizabeth is one of
   the best fusions of Merchant and Military technology and experience.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 09:50:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: May 97 THUDDD entries (4/5)

                                      
  Knarr Class Exploratory Trader
  
   Designer: Chris Pearsall crisp@mail1.halcyon.com
   Firm: Sefreth Shipyards Ltd.
   System: SSDS

Tons: 3000 Std (SL Cylinder)  Volume: 42000 m^3                    Cost: 1502.6
6 MCr
Crew: 70                      High/Med Pass: 0/10                  Low: 20
Cargo: 1000 Std               Controls: Exploration/Survey(Bridge) TL: 12

                                                         3 Jump Drive (300 Std/
Pc Fuel)
09 Size                                                  3 Maneuver (1G High Ef
ficiency ContraGravity,199.98MW; 2x1G Thruster Plates,1500MW) 2x 95Mj Light Las
er (+4) 1/2-1-1-0
                                                         1 Power Plant (4x500Mw
+ 250Mw)
                                                         3 Meson Screen (10Mw)

                                                       926 Fuel ( Scoop 46, Ref
ine 45)
1x Internal Hangar (Spacious) (50-ton Craft)            24 Sandcasters (360)
                                                         1 Nuclear Damper
                                                 A10 P4 J0 Sensors
                                                        10 Armour, 26 Structure

Crew Detail:
 5 Maintenance, 6 Eng - Power Plant, 33 Eng - Drives, 4 Electronics, 2
 Maneuvering, 7 Gunnery - Other, 9 Command, 3 Stewards, 1 Medical).

    Notes
    
   TL 12 Streamlined Cylinder hull with 30 air locks. Jump Fuel held
   allows for 3 parsec travel. 1G High Efficiency ContraGravity. 2x1G
   Thruster Plates. Stndrd auto Dynamic Controls. Installed inertial
   compensators will compensate for up to 3Gs. The fuel scoops can gather
   5% of the total fuel held each hour. The fuel purification plant will
   refine 3780m^3 of fuel per 6 hours. 4 500MW TL12 Fusion Plant power
   plants with 1 years fuel. 250MW TL12 Fusion Plant power plant with 1
   years fuel. 1 Electronics Shop. 1 Machine Shop. 1 Laboratory. 1 Sick
   Bay. 20 Low Berths. 5 Large Staterooms. 60 Small Staterooms. Custom
   Officer's Club. Custom Crew Commons.
   
    Design Details
    
Spaceship Name: Knarr
Tech Level: 12
Displacement: 3000

Component:  Mass  Volume  Surf Area  Power  Price
3000t SL Cylinder A:20 3G  1551.6  -41807  -6212  0.03  1.34168
Cargo  3500  14000  0  0  0
3 parsec Jump Drive  5040  1680  560  0  504
1G High Efficiency ContraGravity  399.99  600  600  199.98  60
1G Thruster Plates  1500  750  150  750  187.5
1G Thruster Plates  1500  750  150  750  187.5
95Mj Light Laser (x3)  207.11  151.6  33  11.02  29.89
95Mj Light Laser (x3)  207.11  151.6  33  11.02  29.89
TL 12 Sandcaster Turret (x4)  231.1  193.6  43  7.1  28.8
TL 12 Sandcaster Turret (x4)  231.1  193.6  43  7.1  28.8
TL 12 Sandcaster Turret (x4)  231.1  193.6  43  7.1  28.8
TL 12 Nuclear Damper Bay  76.2  83  7.5  15  2.05
TL 12 Meson Screen Bay  155  207  100  10  20.7
Stndrd auto Dynamic Controls  4.41  44.1  0  3.15  4.725
TL 12 Exploration/Survey  51.6  66.4  285  69.41  46.78
Standard Life Sup  336  336  0  8.4  21
Artificial Gravity  840  420  0  210  21
Internal Hangar (Spacious) 50t  560  2800  125.44  0  0.68544
Large Cargo Hatch (x3)  0  0  60  0  0.06
Fuel Scoops (x5)  0  0  78.4  0  0.00588
Fuel Purification Plant (x3780)  3024  1512  0  22.68  0.6048
500MW TL12 Fusion Plant (x4)  4000  1000  0  -2000  200
Bridge WorkStation (x8)  1.6  112  0  0  0.012
Regular WorkStation (x3)  0.6  21  0  0  0.0045
Electronics Shop  40  84  0  0.6  1
Machine Shop  120  140  0  1  2
Laboratory  50  112  0  0.8  5
Sick Bay  50  112  0  0.8  5
Low Berth (x20)  20  280  0  0.02  1
Large Stateroom (x5)  20  280  0  0.005  0.5
Small Stateroom (x60)  120  1680  0  0.03  2.4
Officer's Club  40  84  0  0.6  1
Crew Commons  200  446  0  3.2  5
TL 12 Minimal  8.7  26  6  9.43  13.11
Basic Life Sup  210  210  0  4.2  12.6
500MW TL12 Fusion Plant  1000  250  0  -500  50
Fuel  908.25  12975  0  0  0
Total  25935.5M; -1.42629m^3; -3894.66m^2;  -142.926Mw; 1477.664MCr Num
Low psngrs: 20 Num Middle psngrs: 10 Num High psngrs: 0

Num Maintenance crew: 5
Num Eng - Power Plant crew: 6
Num Eng - Drives crew: 33
Num Electronics crew: 4
Num Maneuvering crew: 2
Num Gunnery - Other crew: 7
Num Command crew: 9
Num Stewards crew: 3
Num Medical crew: 1
Total crew: 70

    Ship Notes:
    
   All Power Plants operate only during combat. When cruising, 3 500Mw
   plants running, when landing/refueling all 4 500Mw plants running.
   Stanard Crew alotment calls for 15 marines and 10 scientists and/or
   merchants. Two extra stewards represent crew dedicated to
   entertainment and moral, one for officers and one for crew. All crew
   double up except captain, officers in large staterooms, crew in small.
   Standard loadout calls for 50dT of cargo to be set aside for spare
   parts.
   
   This Traveler spaceship was created using SSDSCalc 1.01, written by
   James Dempsey. Traveler is a registered trademark of Farfuture
   Enterprises. All rights reserved.
   
    ********Press Release********Press Release*********
    
   Sefreth Shipyards Ltd. of Sylea is proud to announce the release of
   its latest ship design. In response to the Imperial THUDD ship design
   competition we now unveil the Knarr class Exploratory Trader. This
   ship follows in the tradition of cutting edge design, excellence in
   production, and premium service that you have come to expect from
   Sefreth Shipyards over the last 70 years. In the Knarr we have created
   the penultimate blend of high yield merchant ship, sturdy secure
   trader, and intrepid explorer scout. With just one of these ships you
   will have the tools to speculate in the vast trade opportunities
   beyond the imperial frontier. With a fleet of these you could corner
   vast foreign markets long before your competition knew what they were
   looking for. The Knarr is thedefinitive ship for finding and tapping
   the vast reaches of space beyond our borders. The first thing that
   separates the Knarr from the competition is its cargo space. What
   other premium Exploratory Trader can claim to have one third of its
   volume devoted to cargo. The Knarr has 1000 dT of cargo space. That's
   less than 1.5 MCr. per ton! That figure alone shows the overall value
   of the Knarr. On top of all that cargo space are ten staterooms set
   aside for any passengers, and there is ample space on board to make
   room for more passengers. And the cream on top of all this
   profitability is the Knarr's ability to transport exotic or dangerous
   goods. Twenty low births make transport of live specimens or less
   wealthy travelers a profitable sideline, and the Siiradka Systems Inc.
   Nuclear Damper allows for the transport of even the most dangerous
   nuclear materials without a worry. Of course the Knarr is more than an
   oversized far trader. It's mission is to explore as well as to trade,
   and for that it is equally well endowed.
   
   The Knarr has a state-of-the-art HammLine Inc. jump-drive capable of 3
   parsec jumps, so it can reach the farthest reaches of space as fast as
   any ship in the Imperium. The Knarr's sensor suit is also designed
   with exploration in mind. A full Siiradka Systems Inc.
   Exploration/Survey sensor package allows the Knarr to explore and
   survey space just as well, if not better, than the top-of-the-line
   Imperial Scouts. The Knarr also contains a 50 ton internal hangar with
   enough room to make repairs or modifications simple. Perfect for
   carrying any auxiliary craft needed to complete a mission. Finally, we
   at Sefreth Shipyards know that long duration missions can be tough on
   even the finest crew, so the Knarr has been designed with crew
   comforts in mind. The Knarr is designed to have two officers to each
   large stateroom, and two crew to each small stateroom, and the Captain
   in his own cabin. Factor out the ten passenger staterooms, and there
   is still ample living space to support up to forty more personnel, be
   they scientists on board for a specific mission, or marines for those
   high risk missions. At first glance, two to a small state room may
   seem a bit cramped, but the Knarr has something special, something
   that will make serving aboard it a joy for officer and crew alike,
   532m^3 devoted solely to the comfort and entertainment of those
   aboard. Both the 84m^3 officers club and the huge 448m^3 crew commons
   are state of the art entertainment centers. They are filled with the
   best technology money can buy. Everything from kitchens, so the crew
   can enjoy some real home cookin', to interactive games such as a
   virtual Grav-Ball simulator and a simulated target range, fitness
   equipment, a multitude of smaller entertainment items and a miniature
   theater able to seat forty people at a time. To top everything off,
   each recreation center has its own steward who is able to dedicate all
   his time to the entertainment and comfort of those he serves with.
   Truly a paradise in space. It must be realized that space is
   dangerous, especially when one is exploring places he knows nothing
   about. That is why the Knarr is built tough.
   
   What we at Sefreth Shipyards have achieved with the Knarr is the
   construction of a comprehensive, state-of-the-art defensive system
   that takes nothing away from the Knarr's primary mission as a merchant
   and explorer. Between the three batteries of four mil-spec
   sandcasters, the twin 95Mj laser batteries, the high quality nuclear
   damper, and finally the meson screen, nothing will be able to get
   through to the Knarr. Furthermore, all of the Knarr's defensive
   systems are built by Sirradka Systems, so you know that your getting
   quality. And if, by some fluke, something does get through, the Knarr
   can take it. With armor equal to the Imperial navy's Large Armed
   Freighter the Knarr can take quite a licking before you need to worry.
   And finally, if all hell breaks loose, and the Knarr suffers serious
   damage, you need not fear. The Knarr is built with redundancy in mind.
   Two separate 1G Thrust Plate systems instead of one 2G, four 500MW and
   one 250 MW Fusion plants, backup life support and sensor systems
   reassure you that you'll never be up a creek without a paddle. This is
   the Knarr class Exploratory Trader. It is simply the best Exploratory
   Trader on the market today, bar none. We at Sefreth Shipyards are
   proud to present this ship to you, and we hope that you will be proud
   to add it to your fleet of ships. So, on behalf of all of us at
   Sefreth Shipyards, I would like to thank you for your time.
   
     Sincerely
     Ronin Sefreth Jr.
     CEO Sefreth Shipyards Ltd.
     
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
  Nuphraitelle class exploratory merchant
  
   Designer: Jeff Cornish jeffreyc@sprynet.com
   Firm: Starwerx Orbital Foundry
   System: SSDS

Tons: 3000td (SL Wedge)  Vol: 42,000 m3                 Cost: 1,162MCr (1,046MC
r)
Crew: 22/31 (/HiAuto)    Pass. High/Medium: 2/10        Pass. Low: 10  ( 4 Emer
g. )
Cargo: 1,300 std         Controls: Survey Std(/Bridge)  TL 12
( 700 std w/ full collapsible tanks )

9 Size Rating                               2 Jump Drive (300 std/pc fuel )
                                            1 Maneuver ( Thruster, 750 Mw )
2xLaser Emitters (+4) 1 /3-2-2-0            1 Power Plant Rating (3x500Mw, 1x25
Mw)
                                          616 Fuel ( /Scoop:1.0 /Refine:4.1)
                                         1216 Fuel /w full collapsible tanks
                                            4  Sandcaster ( 30 cans )
                                            1 Nuclear Damper ( 30Mw )
                                            3 Meson Screen (10Mw)
                                            0 Black Globe
                                    A10 P4 J0 Sensors
                                           20 Armor, 23 Structure

1 x Engineering Shop ( 6 std )      1 x Vehicle Shop ( 10 std )
1 x Laboratory ( 8 std )            1 x Sick Bay ( 8 std )

1 x Minimal Hangar ( 20 std craft ) 2 x Spacious Hangers ( 50 std craft )

Crew Details: 3 cmd, 2 mvr, 3 elc, 4 gun, 1 scr, 5 eng, 5 crf,  2 trp,
              1 sci, 2 stw, 1 brk, 2 med

    NOTE:
    
   I don't know how legal the "100 ton" shuttle bay is, and I haven't
   been able to work in the extra cost of the collapsible tankage (it's
   only about 1 MCr or so), but here is my design, sans shuttle. 
   
   Starwerx Orbital Foundry is proud to present its first entry in the
   latest ISBA competition, the Nuphraitelle. A based on a medium-heavy
   streamlined wedge hull, the Nuphraitelle is outfitted with a 2 parsec
   jump-drive and fuel for 4 parsec's travel--2 in standard tankage and 2
   in a pair of collapsible fuel bladders stowed in the middle cargo bay.
   
   (An interesting variant here would be a J-2x3 ship-add another pair of
   collapsible tanks, 300 dt fuel each, of course, in the cargo bay. It'd
   reduce the available cargo space by 32 dt, and there would only be
   ~100 std of cargo when the ship was fully tanked, but you'd get
   another 2 parsecs out of the ship without refueling.)
   
   The philosophy with the Nuphraitelle is Opportunity, Capability, and
   Survival.
   
   The Nuphraitelle's main sensor array, a Cassini Mk72 Survey package,
   is the standard among medium-sized Imperial Interstellar Scout Service
   vessels and gives the capability to survey uncharted or under-charted
   star systems. The onboard laboratory lets the crew support a
   geophysical, xenobiological or astrophysical specialist to provide
   detailed analysis of the sensor data.
   
   (I chose the Survey sensor package because it _wasn't_ military,
   something I wanted to avoid was the possibility of giving anyone who
   managed to capture this ship an Imperial Naval class jammer. The
   survey package has equal range, is nearly half the cost and price. The
   only losing points are the larger volume and power requirements. Also,
   if the mission requires more Scientists, they should get the High
   Passage cabins)
   
   Nearly half of the Nuphraitelle's volume is taken up by the three main
   cargo bays, each with a capacity of over 6000 cubic meters of storage,
   letting the Nuphraitelle haul impressive amounts of goods from the
   worlds it visits.
   
   Quarters for the crew, 10 middle passengers and 2 high passengers are
   standard, as are 10 low berths, suitable for passengers or livestock.
   The Captain, of course, receives his own large stateroom.
   
   The standard crew's complement, beyond the bridge crew and officers,
   includes 5 pilots/flight crew for the small craft, 2 ship's troops for
   defense and security, a Science Officer, and a Broker/trader
   specialist to aid the crew in matters of speculative trading. 2
   Medical specialists and 2 Stewards round out the complement.
   
   (If more troops are required, they get the Middle Passage cabins. The
   Broker is going to be the ship's 'Scout' who will know all relevant
   information on culture and commerce at the places the ship will land.
   I suppose this could be done by the Captain and 1st Officer if the
   ship were smaller)
   
   Although the Nuphraitelle's thrusters are only capable of 1-gee
   acceleration, the structure of the ship has been designed to withstand
   twice that stress. 1-gee of contragravity and streamlining make
   atmospheric interface and flight safe on any world, terrestrial or
   gas-giant. The Nuphraitelle's redundant wilderness fueling capability
   can scoop and purify a jump's worth of fuel in less than 8 hours.
   
   (The combined 2-gee acceleration from the thrusters and contragrav
   should get this whale... er, a Newfy off most planets. The if one of
   the 'redundant' fuel purifiers fails it takes 12.3 hours to process
   the scooped fuel.)
   
   Spacious hangers for two 50 ton shuttles have been provided, as well
   as more modest facilities for a 20 ton ship's boat. The adjoining
   shuttle bays, with minor modifications, are capable being connected
   and berthing a 100 ton J-2 scout. The extra mission flexibility
   provided to the ship's crew in transporting cargo, passengers or
   handling emergency situations should prove invaluable.
   
   (Right now I'm working on the deckplans for the Nephraitelle and I am
   leaning towards an 'under-and-over' 50 std bay arrangement. The
   deckplates between deck 3 and 4 would be removed and the bays
   connected that way. Comments anyone?)
   
   The Nuphraitelle is the first of Starwerx line of spacecraft and
   starships to feature "Mk3 systems automation," reducing the workload
   on the crew, but as with all Starwerx starships, redundant
   life-support and control systems are standard. A Starwerx Mk8
   'Rambler' class self defense package is included: 2 triple laser
   cannon, 2 sandcaster batteries, nuclear damper and meson screen.
   
   (I'm going to run some scenarios; a Newfy vs. some small, laser-armed
   vessels (pirates? Fighters? Laser defensats?) and see how it performs.
   I'm pretty sure the only thing that will save her is her sandcasters.
   I admit that the laser batts are a little weak, but this ship should
   be able to detect her foe and stay out of harms way before she should
   have to use them. (BTW, if her batteries are combined, they're a
   respectable (+4) 1/5-3-3-0 at a ROF of 100))
   
   As the Nuphraitelle's mission profile includes long duration missions
   away from Class A and B starports, a machine shop, engineering shop
   and sickbay are present (including an emergency low berth for
   critically injured crew or passengers) . If it should become necessary
   the shuttles and small craft should be capable of evacuating the
   entire ship's complement.
   
   (I hope this last point is never needed . It would be horrible to have
   to abandon ship over some lost world with a thousand tons of cargo
   that you couldn't take with you (evil grin).)
   
   As for the crewing, the jump drive, the thrusters/contragrav and the
   reactors take 5 engineers each (a senior/junior arrangement on each
   system with one chief pulling double duty?). The Survey sensor suite
   requires 3 electronics technicians. The ship's compliment has 8 in
   engineering/technical, 5 in gunnery/defense, 2 flight officers, and 3
   in command. Quarters for 5 small craft pilots and flight crew are
   included, but more may be needed depending on the types of
   shuttles/ship's boats you use.
     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
  Monte Cristo Class Exploratory Merchant
  
   Designer: Brian A. Howard bruadh@southwest.net
   Firm: Morell Shipyards Corporation LIC
   System: SSDS

Tons: 2,000 std ( SL Cylinder )  Volume: 28,000 m^3               Cost: 1,002.3
00 MCr ( 902.070 MCr )
Crew: 29/40 ( /HighAuto )        Passengers High/Medium: 0/0      Passengers Lo
w: 0
Cargo: 433.0 std                 Controls: Survey Std ( /Bridge ) Tech Level: 1
2

9 Size Rating                      3 Jump Drive ( 200 std/pc fuel )
                                   2 Maneuver ( Thruster, 1,000 Mw )
4xLaser Emitters (+0) 1/2-0-0-0    2 Power Plant Rating ( 3x500Mw 1x50Mw )
                                 617 Fuel ( /Scoop:5.0 /Refine:6.2 )
                                   6 Sandcaster ( 30 cans )
                                   2 Nuclear Damper ( 30Mw )
                                   0 Meson Screen
                                   0 Black Globe
                           A10 P4 J0 Sensors
                                  20 Armor,  28 Structure

1xEngineering Shop ( 6 std )
1xVehicle Shop ( 10 std )
1xSick Bay ( 8 std )
2xSpacious Hangars ( 50 std craft )
4xDocking Rings ( 10 std craft )

Crew Details: 5 cmd, 2 mvr, 3 elc, 12 gun, 0 scr, 5 eng, 0 mtn, 2 crf,
              8 trp, 0 sci, 1 stw, 1 brk, 1 med

   The Monte Cristo incorporates plenty of facilities for long range
   exploration into a jump 3 hull and still devote nearly a quarter of
   its hull to cargo. This vessel sports multiple repair shops including
   an engineering shop, a vehicle shop, and has a full sickbay to provide
   modern medical attention for a crew that could spend months away from
   home. A standard Survey sensor suite is included for a complete
   analysis of planetary resources. Wilderness refuelling in afforded
   with a streamlined hull and a fuel purification plant that can refuel
   and crack a full LHyd load in just over eleven hours.
   
   Should the Monte Cristo prove a tempting target, the ship is built on
   a strong non-standard 2000 ton hull with plenty of teeth to keep
   pirates at bay long enough to affect an escape to jump space. Heavily
   armored for a commercial ship the hull is braced for 6g, and weaponry
   is built around a defensive posture. Four over-powered light laser
   turrets are intended for missile defense. Six sandcaster turrets
   protect the ship from enemy lasers, and two nuc-dampers are included
   in case a particularly disreputable pirate carries a few extra
   surprises. Internal security is affected by two full fire teams
   equipped to top rated military standards.
   
   Crew Accommodations are perhaps the one weak feature of the craft's
   design. Unlike other entries the Monte Cristo does not spare hull
   volume for such extravagances as extra lounges or recreational
   facilities this is a working ship after all. However, no double
   berthing or hot-bunking is necessary. The command crew have individual
   large staterooms and the junior crew berth in small staterooms while
   the gunners and ship's troops make do with bunks.
   
   Six small craft support the ship's function. Two modular cutters are
   provided spacious hangers for ease of loading and repair. While extra
   modules are not included in the basic design the hangers are arranged
   directly over the cargo bays, and mountings are provided for
   enterprising captain to add a few extra modules at the expense of
   cargo space. In the case the crew has to abandon ship the Morell
   Corporation introduces the Mk 20 Escape pod snuggled into four custom
   docking rings.

Mk 20 Escape Pod ( SSDS )  Designed by: Brian A. Howard

Tons: 10 std ( SL Cylinder )  Volume: 140 m^3              Cost: 18.067 MCr (16
.260 MCr)
Crew: 1/1 ( /LowAuto )        Passengers High/Medium: 0/0  Passengers Low: 12(
12 Emerg. )
Cargo: 0.0 std                Controls: Civilian Min       Tech Level: 12

7 Size Rating      0 Jump Drive
                   1 Maneuver ( HEPlaR, 5 Mw )
                   4 Power Plant Rating ( 2x10Mw )
                   0 Fuel
                   0 Sandcaster
                   0 Nuclear Damper
                   0 Meson Screen
                   0 Black Globe
            A0 P0 J0 Sensors
                   0 Armor,  1 Structure

Crew Details:  1 mvr

   The Mk 20 escape pod is Morell Corporation answer to 'the worst case
   scenario.' Built on a small, light, streamilined, ten ton, cylindical
   hull, the pod utilizes a small but reliable HePlar engine.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1349
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, May 20 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1350



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

May 97 THUDDD entries (3/5)
Re: TML Helps Out!  (was FS data - what to do?)
Re: First Survey - Errors were there six months ago!!!
Re: S/F Role playing games
Re: New Technology (was Milieu: 1889)
Re: Confusion at FTL??
The "I Like Traveller" Thread
Re: The last Straw

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 09:49:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: May 97 THUDDD entries (3/5)

                                      
  Ming Class 2000-ton Exploratory Trader
  
   Designer: Paul Walker tiger@goldinc.com
   Firm: Quiptech, Inc.
   System: QSDS, FFS, Big Hulls

Tons: 2000Sdt(Wdg SL)   Volume: 28,000m^3   Cost: (See Below)
Crew: 35                Hi/Mid: 2/5         Low: 2 (32 Emerg Lo)
Cargo: (See Below)      Controls: Std Civ   TL: 12

 9 Size                       3 Jump Drive (250Sdt/Pc Fuel)
                              2G Maueuver (T-Plates, 1260Mw)
 2xMil Laser(+4)1/4-3-2-0     2 Power Plant (1x2000Mw Fus)
 1xMissile Barb(+4)5/4      771.4 Fuel (S800 R20)
  w/5GuidedDetLsr1d6/2 6G12   6 Meson Screen (32 Mw)
                              8 Sandcaster (240 Cans, 2x+4 MFD)
 2x80-t SL Grapple          A10 P4 J10
11x30-t SL Grapple           20 Armor, 28 Structure
 1x10-t SL Grapple           90 Length

 1xEngineering Shop(6Sdt)     2x80-t Grasshopper-class
 1xVehicle Shop(10Sdt)             Modular Support Craft
 1xLaboratory(8Sdt)          11x30-t Cargo/Fuel Module
 1xSick Bay(8Sdt)             1x10-t Q010 Luxury Landing Craft
 1xFitness Room(8Sdt)
 1xEntertainment Room(8Sdt)
 1xGalley/Mess(8Sdt)

Crew: 2 Man, 2 Elec, 6 Eng, 5 Gun, 2 Scrn, 6 Small Craft,
      5 Troops, 4 Cmd, 2 Stwd, 1 Med (Cmd & Med in Lg Stateroom)

Total Price: 1190.49MCr(Discounted); 1523.69MCr(No Discount)
Total Cargo: 793Sdt

Calculations   -----Price(MCr)----
Ship           Original   Discount      Cargo(Sdt)
Ming Class      1395.39    1074.89        361.4

Grasshopper(1)    52.06      46.96          0.0
Cargo/Fuel Mod (Price for two Modules      28.7
Cargo/Fuel Mod  included in Craft above)   28.7

Grasshopper(2)    52.06      46.96          0.0
Cargo/Fuel Mod (Price for two Modules      28.7
Cargo/Fuel Mod  included in Craft above)   28.7

Cargo/Fuel Mod(1)  0.63       0.56         28.7
Cargo/Fuel Mod(2)  0.63       0.56         28.7
Cargo/Fuel Mod(3)  0.63       0.56         28.7
Cargo/Fuel Mod(4)  0.63       0.56         28.7
Cargo/Fuel Mod(5)  0.63       0.56         28.7
Cargo/Fuel Mod(6)  0.63       0.56         28.7
Cargo/Fuel Mod(7)  0.63       0.56         28.7
Cargo/Fuel Mod(8)  0.63       0.56         28.7
Cargo/Fuel Mod(9)  0.63       0.56         28.7
Cargo/Fuel Mod(10) 0.63       0.56         28.7
Cargo/Fuel Mod(11) 0.63       0.56         28.7

Q010 Craft        17.25      15.52          1.1

TOTAL SYSTEM:   1523.69    1190.49        793.0

    Notes:
    
   250-ton Collapsible Fuel Bladder (12.5Sdt Storage) included. Advanced
   Communications, Small Military Sensors. Fitness Room contains latest
   advanced weight work out system as well as excercise area.
   Entertainment room contains latest selection of tri-d videos as well
   as a digital library, and game selection. Galley/Mess is a specialized
   kitchen/dining area. It is reccommended that the Troops and Stewards
   carried be crosstrained in firing the sandcasters in the event of the
   loss of either of the MFD's. The passengers are typically mission
   leaders and their staff. Power Surplus: 1.04Mw
   
    Quiptech Press Release
    
   Quiptech is pleased to announce its newest ship, the Ming-class
   Exploratory Trader. Designed to trade opportunities outside of the
   Imperium, the Ming is fully equipped with many modern features.
   
   Cargo is key to any trading opportunity, and here at Quiptech, we feel
   that we understand this. The Ming comes equipped with over 350
   standard displacement tons of cargo area within itself, as well as
   over 400 tons of cargo area in specially designed cargo modules. Each
   module comes equipped with its own Life Suport and AG/IC systems that
   can be turned on and off individually to preserve power. This also
   allows the Ming to carry a variety of different cargoes with the least
   amount of spoilage.
   
   Twin Grasshopper-class Modular Support vessels are included with the
   Ming to allow for faster loading and unloading of cargo. Each
   Grasshopper is capable of 5G's of thrust to quickly move cargo from
   the surface to the Ming. The AF hulls of the Grasshoppers also help
   speed up the process.
   
   What good is cargo if you can't protect it? That's why the Ming is
   equipped with a level 6 Meson screen as well as 8 Sandcasters for
   defense. In addition, the twin laser batteries and the missile
   launcher will give the attacking craft something to think about while
   the Ming makes its escape. (Imperial Permits may be required.)
   
   "How?" you ask. The Ming (and all 15 of the Cargo/Fuel Modules) come
   equipped with Collapsible Fuel Bladders. We reccommend that before the
   Ming jumps out of system, all of these Bladders that can be are filled
   with fuel. During the jump, this fuel can be purified and pumped into
   the Mings fuel tank, giving the Ming the ability to perform an
   emergency Jump at any time after entering a system.
   
   Of course, your cargo isn't valuable unless you can get it back to
   port, so, the Ming is equipped with both an Engineering and Vehicle
   Shop and is more than able to repair most parts while in the field.
   But being able to fix your ship is not going to help if there is no
   one to fly it. When you visit new worlds, there is always the chance
   that a new virus or microbody will be encountered, so the Ming is also
   equipped with a 2-bed sick bay and laboratory to give the Medical
   staff an extra edge in finding the cure. But if, Ancients forbid, you
   are unable to find the cure, the Ming is also equipped with more than
   enough low berths to preserve the injured or sick crewmember until the
   cure can be found.
   
   When you are away from home on Exploratory Trading missions, crew
   morale can play a large part in whether you make a profit or not. It
   is for this reason that the Ming provides a small stateroom for each
   crewmember and a large stateroom for the command and medical crew. In
   addition, there is a specially designed Galley/Mess area allowing the
   stewards more room to provide for more tasteful and healthier meals.
   The crew can be treated to a tri-d from a vast tri-d library, or can
   read a book from the library included in the Entertainment Room.
   Finally, crew comfort and health will be enhanced in the Fitness Room.
   A collection of various exercise machinery and work-out areas provide
   the crew with yet another method for passing the long hours of space
   travel.
   
   Finally, the Ming comes equipped with a Quiptech Q010 Luxury Landing
   Craft. During the negotiations and establishment of trade treaties, it
   is often necessary for the mission leaders to conduct meeting of
   good-will on the planet's surface. The Q010 allows this to be done and
   at the same time leave a good impression on the natives. There are
   times, however, when a stronger show is necessary, and at these times,
   the Ming itself can descend to the surface of the world to leave a
   lasting impression with the locals.
   
   No matter what conditions you expect, the Ming gives you the ability
   to confront it with confidence. In addition, the Ming provides a large
   cargo area to increase profits and maintain that competitive edge.
   
    Design notes:
    
   The Ming was designed to work with the Grasshopper and the Cargo/Fuel
   Modules. The total displacement tonnage for all carried craft and the
   Ming itself is 2500-tons. The Jump Drive and Thruster Plates are
   designed with this size in mind.
   
    Other Ships:
    
Grasshopper Class 80-ton Modular Support Craft (SSDS)

Tons: 80Sdt(Disc AF)   Volume: 1120m^3      Cost: 52.06MCr(46.96MCr)
Crew: 2                Hi/Mid: 0/0          Low: 0
Cargo: 0Sdt(1.39m^3)   Controls: Std Auto   TL: 12

 7 Size                     5G Maueuver (T-Plates, 100Mw)
                            3 Power Plant (1x100Mw Fus, 1x25Mw Fus)
 2x30-t Docking Ring        0.67 Fuel (Scoop 80)
 2x30-t Cargo/Fuel Module  A1 P2 J0
 1xEmerg Low Berth         20 Armor, 9 Structure
                           19.8 Length

Crew: 1 Maneuver, 1 Electronics

    Notes:
    
   The Modular Support Craft is equipped with three airlocks one for
   normal entry, plus one per module. The Craft uses the Standard
   Civilian Electronics Package. The area of the Docking Rings does not
   include Life Support or Artificial Gravity/Inertial Compensation. It
   is assumed to be included in the module itself. The Craft carries
   enough fuelto be used for half a year. The inclusion of an Emergency
   Low Berth allows the Craft to be used as a lifeboat if necessary.
   Price listed includes two Cargo/Fuel Modules. Power Surplus: 5.571 Mw
   
    Design notes:
    
   Because I based this design on working with the Cargo/Fuel Module, I
   opted not to extedn the LS and AG/IC throughout the hull. I had some
   difficulty within myself using three airlocks rather than a full
   year's worth of fuel, but I felt the need for the airlocks was
   justified. I also don't like the lack of cargo space, but I felt the
   potential of 5G's thrust was too much to be passed up. Of course, the
   pilot and sensor guy had better be strapped into the seats when they
   kick in the thrust. :)
   
    Design Sequence:
    
 Item      Mass       Volume     Power    Area      Cost
Hull IS    39.6000     2.640     0.000     0.0    0.036960
Armor     343.2000    22.880     0.000     0.0    0.320320
3xAirlk     0.6000     9.000     0.003     6.0    0.015000
T-Plate   200.0000   100.000   100.006    20.0   25.000000
Controls    0.1176     1.176     0.840     0.0    0.126000
StdCivElc  10.1000    24.000    13.360     0.0   12.020000
Std LS(20)  2.2400     2.240     0.056    18.0    0.140000
AG/IC(20)   5.6000     2.800     1.000     0.0    0.140000
Scoops      0.0000     0.000     0.000   198.9    0.014918
100Mw     200.0000    50.000     0.000     0.0   10.000000
25Mw       50.0000    12.500     0.000     0.0    2.500000
2xW/S       0.4000    14.000     0.000     0.0    0.003000
2x30t DkRg  0.0000   840.000     0.000   170.0    0.520000
Emerg Low   2.0000    28.000     0.002     0.0    0.100000
Fuel        0.0000     0.000     0.000     0.0    0.000000
2x30-tMod 340.9200     0.000     2.168     0.0    1.120000
Cargo       0.0000     1.389     0.000     0.0    0.000000

TOTALS:  1194.778   1120.000   119.429   412.9   52.056200
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

30-ton Cargo/Fuel Module (SSDS)

Tons: 30Sdt (Box SL)     Volume: 420 m^3     Cost: 0.63MCr (0.56MCr)
Crew: 0                  Hi/Mid: 0/0         Lo: 0
Cargo: 28.7Sdt           Controls: none      TL: 12

 7 Size                       20 Armor  5 Structure
                              11.5 Length

Crew: (0.02 Maintenance for AG/IC)

    Notes:
    
   The 30-ton Cargo/Fuel Module is equipped with a 28.5-ton collapsible
   fuel bladder to allow the module to be used for fuel storage as well
   as standard cargo. The Standard Life Support and Artificail
   Gravity/Inertial Compensation Systems allow for storage of any type of
   cargo, from refrigerated to live, but does require a 2.084Mw power
   source. (Approximate Dimensions: 11.5m x 5.2m x 7.0m) Fuel Bladder
   (19.95m^3 Storage Space)
   
    Design Notes:
    
   All of the items on the Cargo/Fuel Module are SSDS items with the
   exception of the Collapsible Fuel Tank which is QSDS. The grapples
   needed to use this module on an existing hull require 126m^3 volume
   and 132.25m^2 surface area. They cost 0.26MCr and mass 132.25 tonnes.
   
    Design Sequence:
    
 Item      Mass   Volume  Power Area    Cost   Crew   Source(Disc)
Hull IS    20.70    1.38  0.000   0   0.01932  0.000   SSDS(10%)
Armor     138.00    9.20  0.000   0   0.12880  0.000   SSDS(10%)
Lg Hatch    0.00    0.00  0.000  20   0.02000  0.000   SSDS(10%)
Std LS      3.36    3.36  0.084   0   0.21000  0.000   SSDS(10%)
AG/IC       8.40    4.20  2.000   0   0.21000  0.020   SSDS(10%)
Fuel Blad   0.00    0.00  0.000   0   0.03990  0.000   QSDS(25%)
Cargo       0.00  401.86  0.000   0   0.00000  0.000   SSDS(10%)

TOTALS:   170.46  420.00  2.084  20   0.62802  0.020
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

10-ton Luxury Landing Craft Q010 (SSDS)

Tons: 10Sdt(Cyl AF)   Volume: 140m^3      Cost: 17.25MCr(15.52MCr)
Crew: 2               Hi/Mid: See Below   Low: 0
Cargo:1.1Sdt(16.6m^3) Controls: Std Auto  TL: 12

 7 Size                     4G Maueuver (T-Plates, 10Mw)
                            5 Power Plant (1x25Mw Fus)
 4xRoomy Seats(7Sdt)        0.27 Fuel
 6xAdequate Seats (3.5Sdt) A1 P2 J0
                           10 Armor, 2 Structure
                           14 Length

Crew: 1 Maneuver, 1 Electronics

Notes:
Power Surplus: 0.6Mw

    Design notes:
    
   The seats chosen are from FFS, and everything else is from SSDS. As
   with all of my SSDS designs, the Q010 is equipped with standard life
   support rather than just basic.
   
    Design Sequence: (Q010 Landing Craft)
    
 Item      Mass     Volume   Power    Area      Cost
Hull IS    9.0000    0.600   0.0000    0.0   0.00840
Armor     58.5000    3.900   0.0000    0.0   0.05460
Airlock    0.2000    3.000   0.0010    2.0   0.00500
T-Plate   20.0000   10.000  10.0000    2.0   2.50000
Controls   0.0147    0.147   0.0105    0.0   0.01575
StdCivElc 10.1000   24.000  13.3600   18.0  12.02000
Std LS(10) 1.1200    1.120   0.0280    0.0   0.07000
AG/IC(10)  2.8000    1.400   1.0000    0.0   0.07000
25Mw      50.0000   12.500   0.0000   25.0   2.50000
2xW/S      0.4000   14.000   0.0000    0.0   0.00300
4xRmy Sts  0.0800   28.000   0.0000    0.0   0.00040
6xAdq Sts  0.1200   21.000   0.0000    0.0   0.00060
Fuel       0.0000    3.750   0.0000    0.0   0.00000
Cargo      0.0000   16.583   0.0000    0.0   0.00000

TOTALS:  157.3347  140.000  24.3995  162.0  17.24775
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Design Sequence: (Ming)
    
 Item        Volume     Power     Area     Cost
Hull          104.7   346.000     0.00    97.200
J-3 Drive     100.0     0.000   420.00   466.700
Jump Fuel     750.0     0.003     0.00     0.000
T-Plate        90.0  1260.000   252.00   315.000
Std Civ Cont    1.7     1.300     0.30     9.200
Adv Comm        0.0    21.500   203.00     2.000
Sml Mil Sensrs  1.2    85.200    44.60    62.500
Missile Barb    6.0     0.200    20.00     0.100
3xMFD(+4)       6.9     9.300     6.30    76.800
2xMil Lsr      28.6   219.600    84.20    62.600
8xSandcaster   24.0     8.000    80.00     6.400
Meson Scrn     45.7    32.000   320.00    64.000
Engineer Shop   6.0     0.600     0.00     1.000
Vehicle Shop   10.0     1.000     0.00     2.000
Laboratory      8.0     0.800     0.00     5.000
Sick Bay        8.0     0.800     0.00     5.000
2x80-t Grpl    48.0     0.000   784.08     1.344
11x30-t Grpl   99.0     0.000  1454.75     2.772
10-t Grpl       3.0     0.000   196.00     0.084
Purif Plant    48.0    10.000     0.00     0.300
Fuel Blad(12.5) 0.0     0.000     0.00     0.350
2000Mw         71.4     0.000     0.00   200.000
PP Fuel        21.4     0.000     0.00     0.000
20xW/S         10.0     0.000     0.00     0.040
14xBridge       7.0     0.000     0.00     0.000
7xLg Strm      28.0     0.007     0.00     0.700
35xSm Strm     70.0     0.035     0.00     1.400
8xEmerg Low    16.0     0.016     0.00     0.800
2xLow Berth     2.0     0.002     0.00     0.100
Fitness Room    8.0     0.500     0.00     2.000
EntertainmentRm 8.0     1.000     0.00     5.000
Galley/Mess     8.0     1.000     0.00     5.000
Cargo         361.4     0.000     0.00     0.000

TOTALS:      2000.0  1998.960  3865.23  1395.390(1074.893)

     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
  Cristobal Colon Class Exploratory Cruiser, Mercantile
  
   Designer: Steven T. Charlton scharlto@ifsna.com
   Firm: Aurelian Industries
   System: QSDS plus Huge Table of Hulls
   
   Aurelia Downport, Sylea (Sylean News Service) - Aurelian Industries, a
   privately-held shipbuilding concern headquartered in the Wardn barony
   of Sylea, today unveiled its entry into the current THUDDD competition
   for a new type-standardized Exploratory Merchant Ship class. The
   Cristobal Colon class Exploratory Cruiser, Mercantile (ECM) continues
   the Aurelian Industries tradition of innovative solutions for complex
   starship problems.
   
   At first glance, the Cristobal appears to be little more than a
   reworked version of the famous Aurelian Industries Marco Polo class
   long-range scout ship. While the two ships share many features and
   components, the two classes are quite different. The Cristobal carries
   enough room for corporate researchers or troubleshooters, as well as
   passengers, but still has room for nearly 200 tons of cargo. The
   potentially-threatening heavy wepaonry of the Marco Polo has been
   downgraded to a less-intimidating defensive suite, which still gives
   the Cristobal the firepower it needs to discourage trouble before it
   happens. The defenses of the Marco Polo are largely retained, and
   special dispensation has allowed Aurelian Industries to mount a Meson
   Screen on the Cristobal. While not proof against relic Meson attacks,
   the screen will allow the ship to quickly remove itself from danger,
   without adversely impacting the final cost of the vessel.
   
   The interior of the Cristobal is also a far cry from the Marco Polo.
   While Imperial Navy and Scout Service crews are used to tight
   quarters, Aurelian Industries realizes that the well-paid
   professionals of today's merchant marine need a certain level of
   comfort to be able to perform well and make their companies prosper.
   For this reason, each crewman is allocated his own stateroom.
   Additional entertainment facilities, in the form of two 10-ton
   lounges, have also been added to the ship to maintain morale during
   long voyages of market discovery.
   
   The realities of these long journeys require that the Cristobal be as
   self-supporting as possible. For that reason, the vessel is equipped
   with many additional facilities. A machine shop, equipped with the
   finest high-tech Imperial tools, can fabricate nearly any part the
   vessel may need, allowing the ship to perform major repairs (short of
   an overhaul) without the services of a starport. The human element
   also needs to be maintained, which is why the Cristobal is equipped
   with two fully-functional sickbays. There are also 20 low berths on
   board, which can be used to carry replacement crew or passengers, or
   reserved for wounded crew whose injuries cannot be tended to with the
   ship's facilities (an unlikely possibility).
   
   There is also provision for up to 20 Mission Specialists to be carried
   on the Cristobal; expert economic analysts and trade negotiators who
   can make the difference between a successful expedition or a failed
   one. When making followup visits to an already-explored region, these
   rooms can be used to carry 20 high passengers instead, or even 40
   medium passengers. Similarly, accomodations are provided for 12
   security specialists to guard against treachery by newly-contacted
   customers, and to provide internal order during a long voyage. Again,
   when making followup visits to an already-explored region, these rooms
   can be used to carry 12 high passengers instead, or even 24 medium
   passengers.
   
   Like the Marco Polo, the Cristobal has two separate hangars for 30-ton
   Ship's Boats. These craft can be used for landings, system exploration
   or even (given enough time) wilderness refueling of the mother ship.
   The Ship's Boats are not provided, but can be easily obtained from
   many fine small-craft manufacturers. Any vessel of 30 tons or less can
   be used, or any combination totalling 30 tons, for each of the two
   hangars. In addition, with the Ship's Boat away on a mission either of
   the hangars can be used as impromptu meeting areas for large meetings
   or other ceremonies, or even for a pickup game of Grav Ball.
   
   While the Marco Polo carries external grapples for six 100-ton Scout
   Ships, the Cristobal carries three 200-ton grapples. These grapples
   can be used for any vessel of 200 tons or less, and the ship's drives
   and fuel loads are optimized to handle the ship's mass (2000 tons)
   plus the mass of up to 600 tons of carried vessels. Aurelian
   Industries also provides two complementary auxillary craft to fill
   these 200-ton holes; the Amerigo Vespucci class Auxilliary Far Trader,
   and the Santo Domingo class Auxilliary Cargo Carrier.
   
   Based on the same 200-ton streamlined box hull, the Amerigo and the
   Santo both extend the cargo capacity of the Cristobal, and allow the
   exploration team leader a wider range of exploration options. With the
   jump-2 Amerigo, the team leader can widen his exploration area
   quickly, covering an entire cluster of worlds in one third the time a
   normal exploratory cruiser would require. With the Santo, the team
   leader is able to pick up and deliver more cargo to a world's surface,
   or even refuel his mother ship more quickly. The auxilliary vessels
   are optional, but provide a set of much more flexible and powerful
   exploratory options. The auxilliaries can also be easily upgraded with
   military-quality sensors and even weapons systems, for those regions
   of space where pirates and other dangers make firepower an important
   trading tool.
   
     Linus Ishigli
     VPMarCom, Aurelian Industries
     
- -------------------------------------------------------
(QSDS 1.5, and the Big Book of Hulls for the Cristobal)
(Prices adjusted appropriately.  Void where Prohibited)
- -------------------------------------------------------

Cristobal Colon Class Exploratory Cruiser, Mercantile

Hull : 2000Td Close USL  Volume : 36,400m^^3      Cost: 1108.56Mcr
Crew : 56                Psgrs  : 20             Low : 20
Cargo: 170Td             Control: Mil/Fib(Bdg)   TL  : 12
9 Size                      03 Jump (260Td/Pc Fuel)
                            02 Maneuver (Thrust Plates)
3x 6-lsr bty (+4)1/5-3-3-0  02 Power (3x1000Mw)
4x Missile Barbette (+4)    812.1 Td Fuel (Scoop, Refine 20)
   (20 ready missiles,      2 Meson Screen
    control 16 missiles)    6 Sandcaster (180 cans)
                            3 Nuclear Damper
2x 30-ton Minimal Hangar    Sensors: A10 P4 J10
3x 200-ton Grapples         Armor 20  Structure 28

Special Features:
Engineering Shop
Vehicle Shop
2 Laboratories
2 Sickbays
2 10-ton Lounge facilities

Crew Requirements:
8 Engineering, 2 Electronics, 2 Maneuver, 7 Gunnery, 10 Screens, 2 Flight
Crew, 12 Troops, 8 Command Crew, 3 Stewards, 2 Medics, 20 passengers or
Mission Specialists (all in individual small staterooms, 76 available)

     --------------------------------------------

     Amerigo Vespucci Class Auxilliary Far Trader

     Hull : 200Td Box SL  Volume : 2,800m^^3      Cost: 60.06475Mcr
     Crew : 3             Psgrs  : 7/14          Low : 5
     Cargo: 94Td          Control: Mil/Fib(Bdg)  TL  : 12

     8 Size                      02 Jump (20Td/Pc Fuel)
                                 02 Maneuver (Thrust Plates)
                                 01 Power (110Mw)
                                 41.2 Td Fuel (Scoop, Refine 5)
                                 0 Meson Screen
                                 0 Sandcaster (0 cans)
                                 0 Nuclear Damper
                                 Sensors: A1 P3 J0
                                 Armor 10  Structure 10

     Crew Requirements:
     1 Engineering, 1 Maneuver/Command, 1 Steward in 3 small staterooms.
     There are 7 additional small staterooms for 14 medium or 7 high
     passengers.

     --------------------------------------------

     Santo Domingo Class Auxilliary Cargo Carrier

     Hull : 200Td Box SL  Volume : 2,800m^^3      Cost: 40.79725Mcr
     Crew : 2             Psgrs  : 0             Low : 0
     Cargo: 161Td         Control: Mil/Fib(Bdg)  TL  : 12

     8 Size                      00 Jump (0Td/Pc Fuel)
                                 02 Maneuver (Thrust Plates)
                                 01 Power (110Mw)
                                 1.2 Td Fuel (Scoop, Refine 5)
                                 0 Meson Screen
                                 0 Sandcaster (0 cans)
                                 0 Nuclear Damper
                                 Sensors: A1 P3 J0
                                 Armor 10  Structure 10

     Crew Requirements:
     1 Engineering, 1 Maneuver/Command

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 09:08:55 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: TML Helps Out!  (was FS data - what to do?)

At 01:28 AM 5/20/97 +0000, you wrote:
>
>> 	Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't somebody produce _good_ data already
>> (for M0, I think?) that got thrown out in favor of FS? Why redo work?
>
>Heck, if somebody has already redone all 18 sectors of FS, then speak 
>up.  We need to evaluate it.

Agreed - I would not mind looking over such a thing, as I want to feed some
input data to my sector map generator to get some good profiles of its
execution.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 09:28:03 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: First Survey - Errors were there six months ago!!!

 Joe Walsh wrote:
> Interesting.  In the "Blank" vs. "No Blank" war of the time, that little 
> detail was missed by every single one of us who were here at the time.  
> Marc posted it for comment, and all we could do was fight over whether 
> there should or shouldn't be blank worlds.  We fought over something 
> that, in the end, was a miniscule issue as compared to the big picture of 
> messed up data.  Very interesting.

To be quite fair, Joe, IIRC, he posted only the Vland sector, one which I
am not familiar with, and do not game in.  Had he posted Core or Massilia,
I would have been more likely to actually look at the data, because I had
both the start and end data for it.  (Massilia was used in the Knightfall
adventure, which is why I know it well.)

I also seem to recall that the one sector I saw was a blank sector, but
that could well have been an artifact of when I joined the list.

Besides - the blank issue was hardly minuscule.  It affected the total
layout of the product in a negative way.  I would have laid it out as a
series of subsector maps, sans blank worlds, with one per page, and thus
using 72 pages, leaving 24 for commentary, blank maps, sector maps, or
whatever.  I do not know that this would be better, but it would have been
my preferred layout.  The blank world decision affected that, as it meant
that the data was duplicated in FS.

> And a telling point for those who say TML is ideal for playtesting.

It is better when we think that our ideas have some chance of being heard.
Without being nasty, I have the impression that it is only nearly final
works that make it here, which means that the only possible changes are
minor, not major.  Clearly, you do not want to let information out too
early, as then you are committed to it, but it does kind of make the
play6testing thing a bit troublesome.  Look at the task system debate -
without getting into merits, Marc was not likely to change the system he
posted unless someone found a crippling error, and opinions vary as to what
a crippling error was.

I have contacted IG more than once about official playtesting, and have
been told each time that they have a quite competent group of playetsters,
and that there is no reason that they can see to put another person in the
loop.  I would have thought that FS, the TL15 equipment in EA, and so on
would point out a need for formal defect correction, but they do not see
these as a problem of process, only of detail.  (I do this for a living in
software, and we debug our documentation as much as we debug our code.)

Let me be formal about it - if IG wanted to started a rotating playtest
list, in which each participant got several draft copies of a given text
(not to be released to others), and which you were required to submit
defect reports on within a reasonable period, such as a week, then I would
feel they were going to take the comments seriously.  Look at the
PowerPlant Dream Team, which ended up doing a bang up job on a manual for
Metrowerks.  500 pages of text, proofread and corrected with glorious
abandon.  I can allocate more time if I _know_ that the authors will read
my comments.

Note: I did not say "accept", only "read".  It is the decision of the
author and editor what they want to say, but some kind of review might help
them say it.  The TML is a large pool of competent people.  If some of them
were recruited for occasional playtesting _with explicit responsibilities
and schedules_, and with multiple drafts, they might help IG out greatly.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 18:07:46 +0100
From: Liam McCauley <NerfHerder@Enterprise.net>
Subject: Re: S/F Role playing games

At 17:10 19/05/97 -0600, Glenn wrote:
>Right now, I'm pondering the application of FUDGE to combat. The system 
>I'm working on is a fusion of FUDGE, Traveller, and CORPS.

A fusion of FUDGE, Traveller, and CORPS; a fusion..., a fusion...
Hey, how about calling it FUZION?

Sorry, couldn't resist ;-)

I'd be interested in what you come up with, though.

Cheers,
Liam
- -- 
NerfHerder@Enterprise.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 16:57:49 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: Re: New Technology (was Milieu: 1889)

- ----------
> From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: New Technology (was Milieu: 1889)
> Date: Wednesday, April 23, 1997 12:19 AM
> 

> Practical room temperture superconductors.


You know, Traveller doesn't seem to address this possibility very much.
If it did, you wouldn't need HPG's.  If you could get the current density 
of quality room temperature superconductors up to the low end range of 
very low temp superconductors, say 10 million amps per cm^2, you could 
then have a very good battery for almost anything.  (if I've done my math
correctly) then a storage ring the size of my wedding band would hold
something in the range of 9 mega joules!  These would make things like 
handheld gauss guns and even plasma pistols possible.  You could run your
laptop equivalent computer for a couple of years.  Energy grenades! 
Think about it, you'd be able to shrink the size of an atomic detonator to
hand grenade size or smaller (hmm, how far can you throw an atomic hand
grenade?...).

Larger rings could be used as the power source for Thrust Plate driven
missiles, just run the plates in overload mode.  Heck they only have to 
last a few minutes or so...

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 10:19:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Confusion at FTL??

> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 17:16:27 -0900
> From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
> 
> At 12:59 PM 18/05/97 -0800, you wrote:
> >........... They could propose alternate game
> >universes with FTL radio using the Traveller rules. Instead, IG just
> >publishes without even bothering to check for consistency and then ignores
> >customers who complain. This, I have a complaint with.
> 
> I've noticed this a couple of times now... what's all this about FTL radio???

In the first IG-produced issue of the _Journal of the Traveller's Aid
Society_ (JTAS), an adventure appeared which featured naval officials at a
remote outpost communicating with HQ in another star system in real time. 
This violates one of the single most important facets of Traveller canon -
that FTL communication speed is limited to the speed of the vessel
carrying the message, and thus suffers a minimum delay of about two weeks
for a question and reply cycle. 

What most bothered me about this was not the mistake per se -- it was
fairly insignificant to the adventure, and could easily be reworked -- but
rather the clear indication that both the author and editor had no grasp
of Traveller canon.  But that leads us directly into IG-bashing territory,
and surely there are few horses deader than that one.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 13:47:44 -0400
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: The "I Like Traveller" Thread

As the debate rages about whether the list is a positive force or a
negative one, I'd like to point out that Ken Bearden asked people to help
create a list of things they like about Traveller, to help IG determine the
sort of things we'd like to see in their products.  That thread went
nowhere, while the "what I hate" threads rage on.

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:52:30 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: The last Straw

> Scott, kind of pissed.

Scott,

Don't get pissed--have a good time instead!  I'm really getting a 
kick out of these two.  They're providing entertainment for the 
list.

And, thanks for the words (sincerely).

Kenneth, kind of laughing.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1350
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, May 20 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1351



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: TAS (was Re: Need help, please)
Re: The last Straw
Re: TML Helps Out!  (was FS data - what to do?)
Steve Brengard's Opinion
Re: Who we are!
Re: An Open Letter to the List
Re:Need Help Please
FUDGEing Traveller - Range System
The triumph of evil
Re: The last Straw
Re: Ancient Grandfather
Re: Need Help Please
Hard SF: definition and why it matters
To Courtney Solomon

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:52:29 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: TAS (was Re: Need help, please)

>
> They will owe each member 1 high passage every 2 months.  I assume that
> the Imperial Calender uses 13 28 day months (to the extent it has months
> at all) + Holiday = 365 days per year.  Therefore TAS owes each of its
> members 6.5 High Passages per year.  These High Passages will cost Cr
> 65,000 per year if TAS pays full price & no one ever cashes a passage
> in.  If a member always cashes his coupons in this will cost TAS Cr
> 58,500 per year.

> TAS can make money on its members this way.

Nice math.  Good point.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:52:32 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: The last Straw

> >    Not that it matters, my impression is that Twolf was looking for an
> > excuse to take a powder.  Maybe he should change his name to 'Tpuppy'. 
> > In any event what he really needs is a good wet nurse, not a mature
> > audience.
> 
> Congratulations! You have just attacked someone I consider a personal 
> friend, publicly and insensitively. 

C'mon, Suz,  how can you say that after the comments that Twolf has 
made?  The thread degraded to that level because of your friend, not 
the poster you've quoted above.

I do respect most of what you say, Suz, but in this instance, you 
need to get real.

Go back to the archives and see what Twolf said to deserve this kind 
of reply.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:52:28 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: TML Helps Out!  (was FS data - what to do?)

> OK, the downside is that we now have to get team of people with disparate
> viewpoints to work together.

Look at this like an advantage.  We've got 18 sectors to fix--that's 
a lot of space.  There should be vastly different ideas in the data 
to convey how different one section of space is from the other and 
how different one planet is from another.

I think we should be highly creative.

 If this is to be done properly, and someone is
> chosen as team leader, part of his/her responsibility will be to resolve
> disputes. How do we give him/her this authority?

Why don't we decide who is going to work on the project first, then 
have all of the participants vote on it.  I'd be completely happy 
with that.

> Don't get me wrong... I would **really** like to see this done.

Me too, and I'm willing to devote some of my scarce time to it.   
But, I've got to admit, I'm not sure I want to put that much work 
into something if IG is not going to use it.

I'm not even playing in that sector of space, so it would not benefit 
me directly.  I am just doing it to make the game better and, 
hopefully, see FS be a product worth buying.  It will be a sacrifice 
for me to put all of the time in that this project will take--like 
everyone else on the list, I've got a career to manage as well.

But, if IG is game, I'll make the time.

> In addition, would it include maps? Proper **maps**?

I don't see why not.  There is a lot of talent on this list.  We 
could contact IG and ask them what format they want the maps in.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 13:44:49 -0400
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Steve Brengard's Opinion

>In my opinion I see 'offended' personalities as a sign the direction the
World Community is headed, and it's a 


[More stuff on Liberal Whiners]


First, I shouldn't have to say this, but to quell the inevitable
comparison, I'm a conservative.  


Second, getting sick of rude manners, interminable whining and
tantrum-like behavior IS NOT either liberalism or cowardice.  If we wish
to speak about where the world is going, it is heading straight to the
lowest common denominator, where the loudest, least couth rule.  IN NO
CASE did any of those who recently left the list advocate an abridgement
of your right to speak.  <bold>They advocated their own right not to
listen.


</bold>When Twolf or Suzette spoke out against the childish tone the list
has taken, they were exercising THEIR freedom of speech.  You have two
choices.  You can continue to oppose your ideas to theirs, in a childish
battle of "no, you are", or you can listen to what they had to say,
evaluate it for content and move on.


For the record, the tone of this list is, in my opinion, as childish as
every other mailing list I've seen, but no more so.  It is an inevitable
result of any large, unmoderated forum that those with the least concern
for a common discourse and the most concern for playground supremacy will
dominate the forum.  


At the same time, I do get some value from the list.  I learn which
topics (not people) to avoid and begin to do so.  I will not unsubscribe
from the list until the nuisance outweighs the value -for me-. 
Nonetheless, just as those outraged by IG have a right to speak, so do
those outraged by the manner in which the first group expresses itself.  


Freedom of speech is a two-way street, Steve.  You, Suzette and I all
have the right to speak.  None of us have the right to be heard.


Scott

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 17:45:41 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: Re: Who we are!

	I'm 30 years old.  I went to college for an Electronics
Technology certificate, haven't completed the degree yet.  I've
decided to change to computer science, but for the last (almost 
a year now), I haven't been back.  I have a four month old daughter
who is right now sitting in her swing and chewing on her fingers.
After high school, I went into the Air Force as a computer operator
(mainframes).  Met and married my wife.  Went to college studying
electronics.  Moved to San Diego to work for a company repairing 
industrial & consumer cam-corders.  Moved to Florida, worked as
a computer lab tech (network administrator) in a school.  Began
working as a robotics tech at another company, then was laid off
with everyone else when the company shifted focus.  I have now been
working with the same company for the last two years, first as 
an electronics technician and now in the capacity as embedded systems
designer and software engineer (wow what a leap huh?).

In my spare time I do a small amount of role-playing, due to a lack
of role-players in this area, and write software for my own use using
Visual Basic.  A lot of my time is also spent keeping up with current
technology, especially in theoretical physics (even though I don't 
understand all the math).

I started playing D&D back in 1978 and Traveller in 1982.  One of my
favorite games was Car Wars, making up a car and playing against others
in a single session was a great deal of fun.  I never liked Champions
and even though I play Star Wars on occasion, it just doesn't rank
with Traveller.

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:52:31 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: An Open Letter to the List

> I'm leaving, but I'll be around for a day or two to watch your 
> reactions. I wouldn't want to be called a sniveling whining coward 
> by anyone.

(snip)

> To Ken Bearden:  I hope someday you realize that you have sunk from 
> someone whose posts I read gladly to someone whose posts I ceased to 
> read. I hope you can come to see yourself as at least some of the 
> rest of us have. I even personally invited you to Traveller Chat once 
> :-(

Yes, you did, and I appreciate the invitation.  It is  just that 
Thursday nights did not jive with my schedule.  :(

(snip)

> Twolf and I are *not* the only ones in my close circle of friends and 
> husband on the list who has or will unsubscribe. Maybe we'll try 
> again in a few months, maybe not.

Suz,

I am really sorry to hear your decision on this.  Unlike some other 
people, I was always eager to read your posts as well--and I still 
am.  I do hope you come back.  You are an asset to this list.

And, I'm saying this with all sincerety.

I know that a lot of this "bash IG" stuff is credited to me (and 
rightly so), but I think that it is clear that it is not just one 
person who has been feeling this way.  My thoughts have been echoed 
by several people.

I too am getting tired of the negativity on this list, but what you 
are seeing is the result of Traveller lovers getting fed up 
with being disappointed in the new products.

I am not a negative person.  Actually, I'm pretty easy going, but I 
usually call it straight.  When I see something I don't like, I'll 
spout off, but when I see something I do like, I am just as 
passionate about praising that as I am about knocking bad ideas.

Let me give you some examples.  Remember Glenn Hoppe's jumpspace 
explanation?  Good stuff--I had a religious experience.  Remember 
Glenn Grant's hit location chart?  Another good TML product.

And as for IG, remember my review on the CSC?  Or, how about my 
comments on M0?  Or even my never ending support of the EA?

These are all areas in which IG has either done well or excelled.  

Now, let's talk about giving IG another, and another chance.  
Starships hit and the whole list exploded.  What a piece of crap!  
But, do you remember who was the first person to say that, "This is 
enough!  It is IG's second product.  Let's curb our negativity and 
write it more critically--don't just say that you don't like 
something, say how it could be done better so that IG can learn what 
we want."  That was me.

Do you remember Jeff Zeitlin's response to this?  He made a policy 
that Freelance Traveller would not post negative things about IG in 
an effort to support the game.

And now, this FS thing has hit.  Sure, I blew a fuse.  I'm tired of 
the up and down quality I've been seeing from IG.  I want it to stop.

I want that feeling I used to get when I would rush down to the game 
store when a new DGP item was in.  I was never unhappy with the 
quality of material put out by those people.  I'd buy it, rush out to 
the car to unwrap it, and look at it for about an hour before I left 
the parking lot.

I never felt cheated because of the price or the quality/quantity of 
material therein.  It wasn't long before I would buy anything with 
DGP's name on it.  Never once was I disappointed, whether it be game 
supplements, adventures, GM screens, or even magazines.

All were of superb quality.

Now, maybe I'm spoiled, but from these past experiences, I know that 
it can be done.  If IG could start turning out that kind of quality 
and consistency, we'd have us the best Traveller edition ever.

That's what I want.  It is important to me to get that.  After the 
fourth or fifth time you've been disappointed in a company--when it 
means this much to you, you start to bitch.  It has been no secret 
that I want IG to know what I demand out of them.

Yes.  Now the FS thing has hit, and I've done my bitching about it.  
I feel that these types of decisions are becomming intollerable.

But, what have I done?  Like after Starships, I've started threads 
designed to be more constructive about IG and T4.

I didn't start the FS fix thread, but I am behind it 100%.  I think 
we should team up, fix the FS data, and give it to IG to publish in 
the FS/M0 hardcover--making everyone happy.

My point in all this is--yes, I can be extremely negative about 
something if I am pushed far enough.  After 7 books and a few other 
products, I feel that IG's trend has pushed me that far.

But, don't loose sight of the fact that I can be extremely positive 
as well.  I really do want to see Traveller succeed.

I want to feel about IG the way I feel about DGP.  It is up to IG to 
make that happen--for all of us.

Sincerely, Suz, 

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:09:53 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re:Need Help Please

On Tue, 20 May 1997, Lewis Roberts wrote:
 
> Someone else suggestd, that we don't see Mercenaries taking over small
> African Countries.  Well last year a group of French Mercenaries staged
> a coup in Comoros, and island group north of Madagascar.  They easily
> took over the island, and a few days later the French Army easily
> arrested the mercenaries.  You can use this in Traveller also.  If the
> players succeed, send in the Marines.

Well, that was a special case, since the French mercenary involved (who
was the model for the leader in _The Dogs of War_, by Frederick Forsyth,
and was mentioned in _Roland the Thompson Gunner_ by Warren Zevon) had
been the Police Chief for the islands for some time (5 or 10 years IIRC),
having helped the then current ruler gain power. I believe his name was
Robert Denard or something? He was famous mercenary in Africa, he was
involved in a number of wars there from the 60's on. 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 97 12:48:27 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: FUDGEing Traveller - Range System

FUDGEing TRAVELLER: RANGE SYSTEM
================================

PREAMBLE

    Those who missed my first post on my FUDGE conversion of Traveller
are invited to <www.geocities.com/Area51/8275/fudge.html> for a slightly
revised summary of FUDGEing Traveller.

THE RANGE SYSTEM

    As with Attributes and Skills, Ranges in Traveller can be expressed
using the FUDGE Scale. In the FUDGE system I am developing, Range bands
are consistant, from microscopic scale up to galactic scale. The scale
is logarithmic, with the difference in magnitude between *two* Range
bands being 10x. For example, range 9 is 100x more distant than range 5.

    Therefore, the formula for computing the range band, when given a
distance in meters, is:

    Range = 2 * log10(distance in meters)   round down

For most purposes, including melee combat, distances of less than 1
meter are treated as range band "-1". 

SCALE

    The base FUDGE scale is measured from -3 to +3, the centre point at
0 being called "FAIR". -3 is "TERRIBLE" and +3 is "SUPERB". The Base
Range Band system rates 1-3 meters as being "FAIR", closer distances are
in the negative and farther distances are in the positive.

    In Traveller, it is convienient to rate distances, and the
capabilities of equipment dependent on distance, such as weapons,
sensors, and communicators, in terms of a particular scale with its
midpoint being 0. To convert the scale to range bands, simply add the
scale number.

    For example, small arms are rated in the "Melee Scale" which is
Scale 3. In other words, "Fair Melee Distance" is range band 3 (0+3),
"Good Melee Distance" is band 4 (+1+3) and "Superb Melee Distance" is
band 6 (+3+3).

    The following scales are typically used in Traveller:
    
Bands  0-6    Melee Scale, measured in meters ("Scale 3")
       7-13   Planetary, measured in km ("Scale 10")
      14-20   Orbital, measured in light-seconds ("Scale 17")
      21-27   System, measured in AU ("Scale 24")
      28-34   Deep Space, measured in milliparsecs ("Scale 31")

    Melee weapons would be rated on the Melee scale; small vehicle
communicators and sensors on the Planetary scale; and Spacecraft comm,
sensors, and weapons on the Orbital scale.

    Remember that the above scales are used for ease of reference. Any
other convenient scale could be used to measure other relative
distances.

    For example: One might want to use an Earth based scale, based on
the diameter of the earth (Band 8). In this scale, Scale 8, the 10
diameter limit is "Excellent" distance (+2) + Band 8, and the 100
diameter limit is "Superb+1" distance (4+8). Another more cumbersome way
of stating that is "Superb scale 1, Earth scale" (+3)+1+8. It is a
technically correct, if confusing, way of describing the distance.

THE DISTANCE TABLE

    The following table shows the range bands converted to convenient
units, for distance comparison. I also show the rough Traveller
equivalents for ease of conversion. Rough distances are shown and are
accurate to +/- 10%. For those who desire greater precision, the last
column shows 4 significant figures

    Those with a keen eye and a copy of BRTC's _Guns! Guns! Guns!_ will
note that the aiming Range Class of weapons in 3G3 easily fit into the
table. Simply add 1 to the Range Class to get the Max aimed FUDGE range
band of the weapon.

Range  Distance    Units       Traveller Notes  Higher-Precision
- -----  --------    -----       ---------------  ----------------
- -1      0.3-1      meters      
 0        1-3      meters      Contact          1.000-3.162 m
 1        3-10     m           V. Short
 2       10-30     m           Short
 3       30-100    m           Medium
 4      100-300    m           Long
 5      300-1000   m           V.Long
 6     1000-3000   m           
 7        3-10     kilometers  Subregional      3.162-10.00 km
 8       10-30     km          Regional
 9       30-100    km          
10      100-300    km          Sub-Continent
11      300-1000   km          
12     1000-3000   km          Continent
13     3000-10000  km          
14     0.03-0.1    light-sec   Orbital   
15      0.1-0.3    light-sec   
16      0.3-1      light-sec   Far-Orbit
17        1-3      light-sec                    1.055-3.336 ls
18        3-10     light-sec   
19       10-30     light-sec   
20       30-100    light-sec   
21      0.2-0.67   AU          Orbits 0,1
22     0.67-2      AU          Orbits 2,3,4
23        2-6.7    AU          Orbits 5,6       2.114-6.684 AU
24      6.7-21     AU          Orbits 7,8
25       21-67     AU          Orbit  9
26       67-211    AU          Orbits 10,11
27      211-668    AU          Orbits 12,13
28        3-10     mpc         Orbit  14        3.241-10.25 mpc
29       10-30     mpc         Orbits 15,16
30       30-100    mpc         Orbits 17,18
31      100-300    mpc         Orbit  19
32      300-1000   mpc         
33        1-3      parsecs     Jump distance   
34        3-10     parsecs     High Jump Distance
35       10-32     parsecs     Misjump Distance
36       32-103    parsecs     High Misjump Distance


===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:58:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: The triumph of evil

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men [and women]
to do nothing."

Suzette, and the others fleeing the TML, I *do* know how you feel.  There
is nothing more frustrating and painful than seeing a resource you love
being destroyed by pollution and careless misuse.  But to abandon the
things you love when they are abused is to suffer a double defeat.

Yes, there have been some truly reprehensible posts to the TML in recent
weeks, and especially the past several days.  There have also been some
really wonderful posts -- the "Valentine Rose" piece stands out in my mind
among the TML's all-time best items, the hard-SF thread is making me
reexamine some of my mental models of 'realism', the THUDDD comments are
doing the same for my approach to ship design, and so on and on. 

My suggestion to those who would abandon the TML is that you learn to
treat malicious, ad hominem posts as you would a WINMAIL.DAT attachment --
mild annoyance, perhaps a note to the person responsible if you feel it
necessary, but mostly a few taps on the 'page down' key to skip past it
and get to the *real* posts.

Most important, contribute your own positive material to the list.  I
can't think of a better way to deal with unwanted posts than to drown them
out in a flood of innovative, useful material.

Some of the most creative, cooperative, and interesting people I know are
my friends on the TML.  Are we really going to let a few rude
party-crashers chase us away from our shared joy? 

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:13:53 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: The last Straw

Suzette C. Dollar writes:

>Congratulations! You have just attacked someone I consider a personal 
>friend, publicly and insensitively.  There is no call for such in a 
>civilized society.  Of course, TML isn't a civilized society, is it?  

   Your friend took a comment that was *clearly* intended as a *joke*
and turned it into an excuse to quit the mailing list, implying that
someone was a neo-Nazi on the way out the door.  If I am guilty of
anything, it's stepping in on behalf of someone before they had an
adequate time to respond to an insult.  Your friend on the other hand is
guilty of flaming someone and then not having the gonads to stick around
for his punishment.  If the TML consists of a bunch of barbarians as you
seem to be implying, then how is it that we know basic netiquette and
the meaning of ' :-) ' and your friend does not?

   In the real world, people cut you off in trafffic.  They shout
insults for what seems to them like the right reasons.  They object when
they think you cut in line.  They belch and don't excuse themselves. 
They tell you their views on a political issue even though you don't
want to hear them.  This list consists of a bunch of real people doing
real things.  Sorry if this place is a little too real.
 
>>    Just calling them like I see them...
>
>I'd comment, but we'd be getting into that personal attack thing...

   Oh please, let's not spare the ammunition.  If you want to take this
outside, let's do it.  But I wouldn't come to the defense of the
indefenseable if I were you.

Regards,

Harold
(Traveller heretic, politically incorrect, and proud of it)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 21:31:08 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Ancient Grandfather

>I agree with you that Grandfather didn't just show up one day
>and drop off jump drives with instruction manuals. It's my assertion
>that he did place them about "strategically" so that they would
>be found. I mean, really, the _same thing_ has been invented in
>_the exact same way_ all over the universe not only by different
>human cultures, but also by _different races_??? Like, this stretches
>it a bit.

The idea that grandfather "helped" some races to "develop" j-drives solves
(as you pointed out) the BIG problem of why everybody seems to invent
j-drives at exactly the same time (astronomically speaking) and that there
seem no evidence of large empires outside known space (radio astronomy
should have been able to detect them pretty far from the Imperium).

Most of all though it helps me with my campaign were grandfather planted
the major races as scapegoats for the baddies from the core when they
arrive. He gave those races the j-drives and then hid in his hole hoping
that the baddies would be satisfied with exterminating the six majors. Kind
of makes my players view of grandfather shift a bit (they now think of him
as a kind godlike being helping the little poor critters with this and
that).

Somebody asked how my players eventually would kill grandfather; They are
unbeknowst to themselves helping the single surviving child of grandfather
in his quest of finding him and enacting his revenge (the survivor was
released from the dungeons of Octagon tower a couple of real world(tm)
years ago).


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 13:13:40 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Need Help Please

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 20 May 1997, Lewis Roberts wrote:
> 
> > Someone else suggestd, that we don't see Mercenaries taking over small
> > African Countries.  Well last year a group of French Mercenaries staged
> > a coup in Comoros, and island group north of Madagascar.  They easily
> > took over the island, and a few days later the French Army easily
> > arrested the mercenaries.  You can use this in Traveller also.  If the
> > players succeed, send in the Marines.
> 
> Well, that was a special case, since the French mercenary involved (who
> was the model for the leader in _The Dogs of War_, by Frederick Forsyth,
> and was mentioned in _Roland the Thompson Gunner_ by Warren Zevon) had
> been the Police Chief for the islands for some time (5 or 10 years IIRC),

It may have been a special case but it applies nonetheless. Having
the former government appeal for Imperial aid strikes me as a logical
option of that government.

Here's another idea: the player characters attempt to take over
control of a world. The local government finds out that extraterrest-
rials are trying this stunt. They figure that there's no way that
these "aliens" can be beaten. They also figure (incorrectly) that
there are plenty more of these "aliens" on the way.

The solution: use nuclear or biological weaponry in a doomsday solution.
A whole continent (hopefully the one containing the player characters)
could get wiped out.

If we, on 20th century Earth, were fighting a losing war with aliens,
that war would escalate until the nuclear option was the only one left.
Better to die fighting than submit whimpering, no?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:30:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Hard SF: definition and why it matters

   Hi.

> Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 12:52:10 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>

> So in your worldview no SF containing FTL travel can qualify as 'hard'?
> Not criticizing!!  Just trying to pin down terminology.

   Yeah, pretty much.  My definition of "hard" SF is fiction that obeys
   the laws of physics, or is at least thoroughly aware of the
   consequences of breaking them.  No game played for recreation could
   reasonably expect to meet this definition though, so you could argue
   that this definition is not very useful.

   I think, though, that the definition is important to keep in mind for
   two reasons which crop up on this list from time to time:

   1)  People sometimes /learn/ physics by playing Traveller.  This is
   true in my case; Trav introduced me to the field that has become my
   profession way back in 8th grade.  In these cases, it's good to know
   where the science ends and the fantasy begins.

   2)  It puts design issues in perspective.  There is no reason to
   account for every kilowatt of power used in a starship when there are
   hundreds of gigawatts unaccounted for.  Realism is a forgone
   conclusion in any starship design system which calls itself
   Traveller, so the primary goals for any such system should be play
   balance and ease of use.

>>    Hmmm. According to my textbook, S is called the specific impulse. 
>>    For non-relativistic rockets, like the one in my example, it is also
>>    the exhaust speed relative to the rocket, as you correctly point out.
 
> Every reference I can find defines Isp as having units of seconds; one
> defines it as the number of seconds one pound of propellant can produce
> one pound of thrust (gotta love those English units).  A better expression
> would be:
 
>    Isp = Thrust / (1G * Fuel mass consumption rate)
 
   Thanks for the definition of Isp; I've been wondering what exactly
   you engineers have meant by it for a while now.  While we may never
   agree on definitions, at least now we can convert from one convention
   to the other:

   	S = Isp * (9.8 m/s^2)
   	Isp = S / (9.8 m/S^2)

> LOX/H2 has an Isp of around 800 sec; apparently HEPlaR drives run around 4
> *million* seconds.  This is clearly one of those circumstances where one
> needs a heavy construction crane to suspend one's disbelief. :)

   Hmm. This number seems a little high to me.  According to my
   textbook, the value is S = 3100 m/s, which converts to Isp = 310
   seconds.  Am I missing something here? Or do I need to get a more
   up-to-date textbook?  I'm not quibbling with your calculations (heck,
   I got some of the power conversions in my last post wrong by a factor
   of 2 --- not that that affected my point much!); I just want to make sure
   I understand the concept correctly.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 14:32:52 +0000
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: To Courtney Solomon

Dear List, Courtney, Marc, and IG,

Volker wrote a great letter to Courtney Solomon at Sweetpea about
proposed changes for FS.  I agree 100% with what Volker wrote, and I
think that this is something that needed to be done--especially in light
of the events occuring on the list in the last few days.

Here's a few more suggestions and comments about FS.

I suggest that the incomplete maps be removed from FS and replaced with
referee maps that contain complete information.

One blank sector grid should be included for refs who want to make a
player map with limited information.  This blank map can be photocopied,
and the ref can use it to detail as much or as little of the information
as he desires if he doesn't want to show the complete maps to his
players.

This way, a referee has information about the sector from one glance at
the map--instead of having to look up hex locations in the data list for
each world the ref needs info on.

Likewise, I think that some of the space in FS can be saved by not
printing the data lists twice.  As it stands now, FS has a player
section with blanks and a referee section with complete system data.

I suggest a fix similiar to the one I proposed about the maps.  One,
totally blank, list should be included for referees to photocopy and
fill out for player information.  The pages of the book can be greatly
reduced by eliminating all of those other, duplicate incomplete player
data listings.

I know that Marc intended this book to be used as a work book--where
players fill in the missing data as they discover it, but I think this
purpose would be better served using the fix I have detailed above.

One more thing--Volker listed several examples of the data in FS being
wrong.  Most noteably, this was the LL=GG flub.  Most of us here on the
TML would like to see that data fixed.  If you are interested, some of
us have banded together to help.  

What we propose is this--

1)  We will fix all of the data in FS, and make it backwardly compatible
with previous published data for these sectors.

2)  This service will be undertaken free of charge to you by the
Traveller fans on this list in an effort to see FS become a useable
Traveller resource.  When the project is completed, we will hand over
all rights to IG, and the data becomes the property of IG.

In return, we ask that you--

1)  Publish the corrected data in future printings of FS and/or the
M0/FS hardback.

2)  Produce errata sheets containing the corrected information, and make
this information available to any who ask at no, or a very low, cost. 
Having the errata sheets available to anyone who who sends IG an SASE is
what I have in mind, but if a dollar or two charge is necessary, then
this will be acceptible.

You may consider making the errata available on IG web site or
publishing this data in a series of issues in the JTAS in conjunction
with the SASE program.

3)  Advertise that the errata sheets are available through placing small
flyers in upcoming IG products for Traveller players who are not
subscribed to the TML.

4)  Include credit in the publications that this corrected data will be
used in.  Correcting the FS is a big job, and most of us will be doing
it by hand.  It will be nice for the Traveller fans who work on the
TML-FS Project to have their names in print on a product of their
favorite role playing game.

If you have any other requirements to add, please contact me to discuss
them.  You can reach me here, on the TML list, or at
dreamer@brokersys.com.

I await your answer.

Sincerely,

Kenneth D. Bearden

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1351
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, May 20 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1352



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Relativistic manuever drives
The Cristobal Class
Re: What the #%$* is going on here!
Re: In my opinion ....
Re: S/F Role playing games
TAS, was: Re: Need help, please
Re: The last Straw
Re: The last Straw
Re: TML Helps Out!  (was FS data - what to do?)
Re: Anyone going to BayCon?
Re: THUDD Exploratory Traders
Re: Ancient Grandfather
Re: A letter about M:0 and FS to IG
Re:Need Help Please
Re: [T97#1336] Need Help, please

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:37:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Relativistic manuever drives

   Hi.

> Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 13:14:11 -0800
> From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>

> OK, that what I though.  Note: in an intertial reference frame
> the ship will gain mass as it accelerates.  If the thrust
> remains invarient, it's acceleration will decrease.  However,
> it's not clear how the trust would or wouldn't change.  

   Interestingly enough, it turns out that if you take the definition of
   thrust to be F = dE/dx, where E is the /kinetic/ energy, then F is
   independent of your reference frame for simple one-dimensional
   motion.  This is despite the fact that at relativistic speeds, your
   acceleration slows down.

> For a reaction drive, the reaction mass will also increase
> relativistically and, as long as the ship can push is
> back at the same relativistic speed then acceleration
> will be constant.  Reactionless drives are another ball
> of wax alltogether.

   I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "same relativistic speed".  If
   I have a rocket which spews reaction mass out the back at some
   constant kg/s (by the ship's clock) at some constant velocity
   (relative to the ship), then that rocket will have a constant thrust,
   F.  If the spew rate is adjusted as the ship's mass decreases, then I
   can get a constant acceleration, A, which will be "invariant" as seen
   by inertial observers who are not moving relativistically with
   respect to the rocket.  But for those guys back at the homeworld,
   where the rocket is moving away at a relativistic speed, the
   acceleration is not invariant; they see the rocket acclerate more
   slowly, at the rate A' = A * (1 - (v/c)^2)^(3/2) = A * tau^3.  Again,
   this formula assumes simple 1D motion.

> Also, one should be careful using an accelerating ship as
> a reference frame.  Only _interial_ reference frames are
> equally valid and this is not an interial reference frame. 

   A good point that, when ignored, leads to all sorts of paradoxes.
   Don't worry, I've been careful.  8^)

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:44:18 -0700
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: The Cristobal Class

Thank you for the very nice comments, Ian.  The Cristobal (and its
progenitor, the Marco Polo Long-Range Scout Cruiser) are both reworks of an
old High Guard design I did for a PC who owned a mercant company is the
lower Spinward Marches.  He was based out of Mertactor (in District 268),
and had managed over 10 years to assemble a mercantile fleet of a dozen
ships.  He wanted to get a purpose-built ship to explore and exploit the
sectors spinward of the Spinward Marches and Trojan Reach, and was willing
to finance a billion credits to do it (thats one thousand million to you
Europeans!! ;-)).  The original design was TL15 and a bit roomier than the
QSDS version I posted, but worked well.  It just amused me because your
post described very clearly many of the things my PCs ended up doing with
their ship (named "Glory of Mertactor", because the owner PC was the son
and heir of the King of Mertactor).  In the end, the PCs built two more of
this class vessel, and sold the rights to the design to Oberlindes as well.
They used their ships to set up a network of trading posts (about 25 of
them) in two sectors, and managed to explore more than 200 worlds for
potential economic opportunities.  It was the memory of this campaign that
really got me thrilled at the idea of the Exploratory Merchant competition.

As it turns out, the two modules I included in my entry (the Vespucci and
the Santo Domingo) were only a few of the modules I had for this ship.  I
had five other vessels, which I did not include in my entry for the
purposes of brevity.  The files are (of course) on another computer just
now, but as I recall, the features were:

1.  Armed Far Trader - Basically a Vespucci with a 2-laser battery and a
missile barbette, plus a sandcaster.  Additional power is available for a
Nuke Damper, but one is not provided.  I think it shaved about 20 tons off
the Vespucci cargo capacity.
2.  Exploratory Starship - Similar to the Armed Far Trader, but only had
about 20 tons cargo.  The rest was taken up by laboratories and additional
crew berths for "recontact specialists."  This was part of the Marco Polo
(Long-Range Scout Cruiser) design, whih I postulated would be avaialable on
the civilian market as well.  Really just a half-size Lab Ship.
3.  Assault Lander Module - Similar to the Santo Domingo, but configured to
carry troops (a reinforced platoon, with APCs and heavy weapons).
Up-armored, with the same weapons as the Armed Far Trader, plus some Plasma
weapons and VRF gauss weapons from the Emperor's Arsenal (for close-in
support).
4.  Fixed Cargo/Fuel Module - Basically just a shell, capable of holding
about 190 tons of cargo or fuel.
5.  Prefabricated Base Module - Similar to the Exploratory Starship, but no
Jump or maneuver drives.  The module could be delivered to a planet by the
Cristobal, or detached in orbit as an orbital station.  The former drive
space was devoted to cargo, workshops and additional quarters (plus a
10-ton bar).

I'll post these actual designs later (when I grab the files).  I just
wanted to note that, apparently, many Traveller players think alike.  I
think Ian would have fit in well with my band of cut-throats, er, merchant
PCs.

- --------
Ian <ianw@zed.com.au> wrote:
But I really cant go past the Cristobal class. A combination of
two jump 2-capable carried craft and twenty trade specialists
decided the issue. Including carried craft, it has 530 tons of
cargo capability, which is acceptable compared to it's total
MCr1300 cost. The Amerigo Vespucci class vessels really need to
be armed, however, and fuel bladders for a jump-2 in their cargo
bays could be a good idea (allowing a rapid evacuation of a
hostile system). Personally, I would also replace the suggested
Santo Domingo with a third Amerigo Vespucci.

The advantage it will have is speed and flexibility. On contacting
a potential market, the mother ship can leave, with one of the sub-
craft remaining in system to keep an eye on things, and provide a
home base for up to 14 trade specialists.

As the shipyard's advertising makes clear, the sub-craft can help
cover three times the area that a single craft could.

If one wants to really optimize cargo capacity, and has contacted
a world with an industrial base, the locals could be contracted to
build a hull of the same size and shape as an Amerigo Vespucci
class. It doesnt need an engine or life support, and it doesnt
matter if it built of composite laminates, aluminium or even welded
steel - just so that it can be grappled to the mother ship with lots
of interior space for cargo. The Amerigo Vespucci then makes it's
own way home.

A related idea is to carry as cargo a prefabricated base. One of the
Amerigo Vespucci's is delegated the task of setting up the base on
some silent world in an abandoned system, thus providing a point at
which cargos can be stockpiled for later shipment back to the
Imperium. A pair of Heavily Armed Cutters could be carried as cargo
as a self-defense force for the base.

In short, buy the Recollet if you want to be a Merchant Prince, and
buy a Cristobal Colon if you already are.

Ian Whitchurch
- -----------------------
Steven Charlton
scharlto@ifsna.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:51:13 -0700
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: Re: What the #%$* is going on here!

Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org> wrote:

<Suddenly the whole of Planet X, the great massive space station that it
is, produces a blue-white gridwork upon its surface.  And Suddenly in a
blue-white flash, it is gone.>

Hey!  Is that canon?

(ducks furtively, as the TML
crashes in discord around him)

- ------------------------------
Steven Charlton
scharlto@ifsna.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 14:42:45 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: In my opinion ....

Apologies to Suzette & Co. -- I fully agree re: the increasing barbarism
of the list (Long Night for TML?), but had to correct the appalling
ignorance of this American citizen.

Quoth Steve Brengard:
> Last time I checked, the constitution still protected the right of free
> speech.  Every US citizen is entitled to free speech. If someone chooses
> to express there option, no matter if with taste or without, so be it.

GONG!  Thank you for playing.  The Constitution describes relations
between the government and its citizens, not between citizens themselves. 
The government may not ban speech -- but the TML, for example, certainly
can, *within* *its* *private* *area* *of* *ownership*.  It would be
perfectly legal within the U.S. for MPGN to remove list members from TML
for rude or vulgar speech. 
 
> Oh, and if I offended anyone, tough sh!t. Deal with it.

And for infantile behavior of this sort, perhaps MPGN should....

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 97 13:46:49 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: S/F Role playing games

On 1997-05-20 05:14 thus spake Anders Backman:

>I'm slowly (as I'm running a campaign) converting my game into something
>FUDGE-like but I started this before FUDGE and the likeness is only
>accidental (or this IS the proper way to do roleplaying mechanics). The
>main thing against FUDGE is their weird D3 system. Anybody even mildly
>irritated over T4 task system should blow his fuses when seeing the FUDGE
>D3 dice. The consistent use of logarithms for conversion between real
>world(tm) and game mechanics is a good one though.

Personally, I don't have a problem with D3, simple D6's can be used to 
generate D3 results by realizing 1,2=low (-1) 3,4=mid (0) 5,6=high (+1). 
With a little training, the results appear automatically. I actually find 
the -/0/+ results somehow elegantly pleasing. :-) 

For those who dislike them, remember that FUDGE has alternate dice 
rolling systems such as 3d6, 4d6 or percentile dice. Here's an excerpt:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
3.22  Other Dice Techniques
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

For those who don't want to make or buy FUDGE dice, three different
options are available:

4d6: this method requires 2d6 of one color (or size) and 2d6 of
   another color or size.  First declare which two dice are the
   positive dice, and which two the negative, then roll all four dice.
   Do not add the dice in this system.  Instead, remove from the table
   all but the lowest die (or dice, if more than one has the same
   lowest number showing).  If the only dice left on the table are the
   same color, that is the result: a positive die with a "1" showing
   is a +1, for example.  If there are still dice of both colors
   showing, the result is "0".
   
   Examples (p = positive die, n = negative die): you roll p4, p3, n3,
   n3.  The lowest number is a 3, so the p4 is removed, leaving p3, n3
   and n3.  Since there are both positive and negative dice remaining,
   the result is 0.  On another roll, you get p1, p1, n2, n4.  Remove
   the highest numbers, n2 and n4.  This leaves only positive dice, so
   the result is +1, since a "1" is showing on a positive die, and
   there are no negative dice on the table.

3d6: Roll 3 six-sided dice.  Add the numbers and look up the results
   on the table below.  This table is small enough to fit easily on a
   character sheet.  Example: a roll of 3, 3, 6 is a sum of 12.
   Looking up 12 on the table yields a result of +1.

[TABLE]
Rolled: | 3-4 |  5 | 6-7 | 8-9 | 10-11 | 12-13 | 14-15 | 16 | 17-18
- --------|-----|----|-----|-----|-------|-------|-------|----|------
Result: | -4  | -3 | -2  | -1  |  +0   |  +1   |  +2   | +3 |  +4
[END TABLE]

d%: roll two ten-sided dice, having first declared which will be the
   "tens" digit.  Read the tens die and the ones die as a number from
   1 to 100 (01 = 1, but 00 = 100), and consult the table below, which
   should be printed on the character sheet:

[TABLE]
Rolled: |  1 | 2-6 | 7-18 | 19-38 | 39-62 | 63-82 | 83-94 | 95-99 | 00
- --------|----|-----|------|-------|-------|-------|-------|-------|---
Result: | -4 |  -3 |  -2  |   -1  |  +0   |  +1   |  +2   |   +3  | +4
[END TABLE]

Of course, the GM may customize this table as she wishes.  These
numbers were chosen to match 4dF, which the author feels is an ideal
spread for FUDGE.

- - - - - - - - - - -
3.23  Success Rates
- - - - - - - - - - -

The following table is provided so that players can better evaluate
their chances of success.

[TABLE]
                         4dF
Chance of achieving:     or d%         3d6        4d6
- -------------------      -----         ---        ---
   +5 or better:           -            -          0.2%
   +4 or better:           1%           2%         2%
   +3 or better:           6%           5%         7%
   +2 or better:          18%          16%        18%
   +1 or better:          38%          38%        39%
    0 or better:          62%          62%        61%
   -1 or better:          82%          84%        82%
   -2 or better:          94%          95%        93%
   -3 or better:          99%          98%        98%
   -4 or better:         100%         100%        99.8%
   -5 or better:           -            -        100%
[END TABLE]

Thus, if your trait is Fair, and the GM says you need a Good result or
better to succeed, you need to roll +1 or better.  You'll do this
about two times out of five, on the average.

You'll notice that using 3d6 or 4d6 the results, while slightly
different, are close enough for a game called FUDGE.  The 4d6 results
do allow +/-5, however, but this shouldn't be a problem since they
occur so rarely.  In fact, you could use 5dF to allow +/-5 if you
wanted . . .

===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 22:22:16 +1
From: "Jonas Karlsson" <Jonas.Karlsson@mail.baldakinen.umea.se>
Subject: TAS, was: Re: Need help, please

From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
> At 10:41 AM 5/18/97 +0000, Kevin Bearden wrote:
> >> 1)	One of my players received "Traveller's Aid Society" as a mustering-out
> >> benefit from the Navy.  He wonders why he should ever work, since he can
> >> sell a high passage every two months, giving him an excellent income.
> >
> >You can sell the High Passages for 90% of their face value.  Cr9,000 
> >is not an excellent income.  There are plenty of things that he is 
> >going to have to buy.

The way I do it, the 'High Passages' are actually redeemable 
non-transferable travel vouchers, valid for one month from date of 
issue. That is, if they are not *picked up and used* within one month 
of their nominal date of issue, they are just a worthless bunch of 
plastic. Not that it'll be 'printed' until the character shows up 
personally to collect it, or if he shows up too late, for that matter.

Any registered ship owner in good standing with the TAS can cash 
in travel vouchers, that have been signed by the TAS member they were 
issued to, at 95% of nominal value at any port *other* than the port of 
issue. For the 'missing' 5% they get the last week's full TAS News 
(with full trading data for all worlds on 'local' trade routes 
('local' meaning whatever the local TAS office wants it to), a free 
dinner, and a bit more good will with the TAS. (Obvious abuse, such as 
bringing in dozens of vouchers when one only has a small scout, will 
bring about a redlisting of the ship, which will be published with all 
the other data TAS publishes. In my game, apart from meaning that the 
ship won't be allowed to cash another voucher, ever, it would give a -2 
on *all* rolls in the trading system (cargo, trade and passengers, 
buying and selling, etc), for trades performed within the Imperium. A 
ship that constantly refuses to accept TAS vouchers will get 
amberlisted, giving a -1. (The reasoning behind the penalties is that 
redlisting is also done with pirate ships and the like, and 
amberlisting with ships of dubious legality.) Actual forgery of TAS 
vouchers (almost as difficult as forging Solars) will probably be 
punished by setting a *high* bounty on the miscreant's heads.)

In other words, most ship owners would rather take 'real' High 
Passages, but they are certainly better than a Middle Passage, and it 
never hurts to have the TAS like you.

The above removes most of the more irritating forms of abuse, and 
encourages that they actually be used. It is, of course, not immune to 
all forms of abuse, especially as I deliberately left a few holes in 
the system.

As is probably obvious, in my game the TAS is rather powerful, with a 
lot of political, financial and social clout. This is due both to it's 
impressive 'old-boys' network, and to the valuable services it 
performs.


Well, those are my views on the TAS. How do all the rest of you treat 
it?
- --
| Jonas.Karlsson@baldakinen.umea.se          | I am a number,  |
| Jonas.Karlsson@capgemini.se - jonask@io.com| not a man! - 42 |

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 16:31:09 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: The last Straw

Kenneth Bearden writes: 

>Is this guy for real?  I am getting a total kick out of these two!
>Watch out, Harold!  I think we've got a serial killer in the house!

   Is that serial killer or cereal killer?  :) <--- the universal symbol 
                                                    of a remark intended 
                                                    to be humorous

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 16:30:57 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: The last Straw

Tim Reynolds writes: 

>Ok, as you all know by now Twolf is a friend of mine.
>I was not happy with what he did but I talked to him 
>and explained his reasons and I have accepted them
>as I accept him as a friend.

   Well the rest of us would love to hear what they were.  They have to
go much deeper than what he put in the originial "The last Straw" post.

>Now for the rest of you  fools its one thing to decided to leave an 
>argument because you cant take the stupid  people and dont want to 
>argue any more.  But its  coward  that  hits  somebody 
>after they have left.

   I had assumed that one of his allies would get him the message.  As
for being a fool, I am a fool for love, own a copy of Fool for the City,
celebrate April Fool's Day, and have a lump of fool's gold, but I am no
idiot, which is what you are asserting.

>  If you were a true man harold you would have said this before he 
> left to his face. 

   Please forward my remarks to him with my compliments.  My e-mail
address should he want to reply is hdhale@siscom.net, in case that info
gets garbled in the header to this message.  By the way, it is rather
difficult to say something to someone's face after they leave the room
and slam the door.

> I am  pretty sure you would learn why he is called Twolf.  

   Because he will only attack when he has numbers on his side?

> If you want to know I think that his actions made him more mature 
> then any of us.  He has moved away from you worthless people.  

   No, it makes him a spoiled little child.  And how did you get access
to my financial data?

> I would do the same but I dont turn my back on known scum 

   You're right.  I know because you haven't turned your back on Twolf.

> Just calling them as I know them

   I can recommend a remedial course if you're interested.

> I apologize  to the rest of the members of the TML for my actions, but 
> I cant let this go.  I will no longer post on this subject.  If some 
> of you want a fight my email is attached and I ll reply to those
> email  sent to that address.

   To make sure you'll get this, I've taken the step of cc:ing your
e-mail address.

   Look, it is apparent that you and Suz hold some kind of admiration
for this guy, why I don't know.  While he might have satisfactorily
explained things to you as to why he had a "hissy" and left, the rest of
the list is either irritated at him, insulted, or just lamenting the
poor tone of the list.  Now that being the case, has it occured to you
yet that perhaps his actions were indefensible, and it would be best
just to admit that he was wrong and get on with life?

- --Harold

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:06:27 -0500
From: Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com>
Subject: Re: TML Helps Out!  (was FS data - what to do?)

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
 
> Now, here's a great comment.  Let's just fix the damn thing
> ourselves.
 
	HEAR, HEAR! I have been purposefully aoiding FS for the reason that it
is useless as written. And given the amount of history and experience
here, we should certainly be able to do SOMETHING about it. Especially
in light of the work you all did with QSDS, SSDS, etc.

<SNIP>
> Michael, I think you should take the ball and run with it.  The TML
> should get organized about this.
> I think first, we should make a list of all the important stuff that
> needs to be addressed--Vland's population and whatever else.

	What, you mean actually take a look at the problem in a serious manner
before catapulting headlong into fixes we'll regret the moment we
release them? You know, that's just crazy enough to work... :-)

<SNIP SNIP SNIP>
> Let's not just fix the big boo boos in FS--let's fix the the damn
> data.  Let's make sure that we are not going to find another problem
> later.
 
> Who else is going to get behind this project?

	Count me in. Granted, I've only been in since TNE, and don't have
access to a lot of the materials, but I'll do what I can.

Ryan
litefoot@feist.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 13:31:36 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Anyone going to BayCon?

At 07:12 AM 5/18/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Ugh, which bay area?  San Francisco, Tampa, Botany...?

Oops.  San Francisco.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|   about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|   Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|     -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin" |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 13:51:07 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: THUDD Exploratory Traders

At 11:29 PM 5/18/96 -0700, Ian wrote:

>First of all, rip the bloody Meson Screens. In my view, there
>is no way in hell the Imperial Navy would let *anyone* take
>a meson screen out of Imperial Space - including itself.

The ISBA list has been discussing what equipment would be restricted, and I
believe the group opinion is that meson screens fall under the "license
required" group.  Note that the screen on the Terrapin isn't going to stop
a serious attack.  It's there to defend against the pocket loonies who have
gotten ahold of a small bay weapon.

>As has, I think, been noted on the list, a meson screen is
>the major technical advantage a TL12 navy has when fighting
>a TL11 navy. In my view, meson screens would be *more*
>tightly controlled than meson guns, because the IN can
>defend against meson guns.

Once again, a matter of scale.  I'm designing the 90kton battleship that
keeps getting mentioned.  Her spinal mount would rip a ship like the
Terrapin to shreds, and never notice the weak screens.

When operating in Imperial space, the Navy probably requires the screen
generator to be phyically disconnected from its power supply.  Failure to
do this would be considered a major violation of shipping laws.

>Apart from that ... nice design work, fellas.

Thanks!  Hmmm. no commentary about the Terrapin, I don't know if that's
good or bad...

Gee it's nice to be discussing Traveller again!


- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|   about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|   Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|     -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin" |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 13:30:04 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Ancient Grandfather

At 10:55 AM 5/20/97 -0400, Ethan wrote:
>From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>

>>I think the solomani discovered it, thats why they went so quickly from
>>J-1 drives to J-3.  Also, the Solomani alien module does not say anything
>>about ancient sites on the moons of Jupiter(that i can find anyway) - your
>>thinking of 2010.
>
>No I'm not. Sheesh. Tell you what - I'll go home and check _all_ of
>the Alien modules, Solomani & Aslan, Vilani & Vargr and all my
>MT stuff too. Sheesh - please don't tell me I don't know what I'm
>talking about. We all know what we're talking about.

"Solomani & Aslan", pg 5.  (On Venus) "Subsequent exploration revealed that
Venus was the site of an unfinished Ancient terraforming effort.
Apparently, the Final War interrupted the project, and without outside
control, the planet's unbalanced enviroment degraded to its present state."

ibid, pg 7.  "Today, Titan is best known as an Ancient site.  Although
archeolgists have announced no major finds, evidence found on Venus
suggests grand discoveries await."

It is also noted that both the Imperium and Solomani enforce a 1 AU
exclusion zone around Pluto.

You want fries with that crow?

>On a completely irrelevant note, this is what really burns me.
>This is a mailing list. You can ignore what you don't like.
>Don't tell me, or anyone, to shut up and don't tell me I'm getting
>Traveller confused with 2010.

True.  I really dislike people who have admitted that they don't even play
the game *telling* me how things are "supposed" to be.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|   about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|   Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|     -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin" |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 14:13:29 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: A letter about M:0 and FS to IG

At 04:35 PM 5/20/97 MET, Volker wrote:

>Zhodani agents report that Courtney Solomon wrote:

<whole lotta snipping going on>

Excellent letter!  This is what we need.  Positive, specific, polite
commentary that explains our positions clearly.

Let us know if you get a response.  In the mean time, I suggest that other
TMLers take the time to send a similar message to:

 suggestions@imperiumgames.com

Be brief, and above all be polite.  If enough of us make our voices heard,
we might make a difference.


- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|   about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|   Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|     -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin" |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 14:24:26 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re:Need Help Please

At 11:09 AM 5/20/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>On Tue, 20 May 1997, Lewis Roberts wrote:
> 
>> Someone else suggestd, that we don't see Mercenaries taking over small
>> African Countries.  Well last year a group of French Mercenaries staged
>> a coup in Comoros, and island group north of Madagascar.  They easily
>> took over the island, and a few days later the French Army easily
>> arrested the mercenaries.  You can use this in Traveller also.  If the
>> players succeed, send in the Marines.
>
>Well, that was a special case, since the French mercenary involved (who
>was the model for the leader in _The Dogs of War_, by Frederick Forsyth,
>and was mentioned in _Roland the Thompson Gunner_ by Warren Zevon) had
>been the Police Chief for the islands for some time (5 or 10 years IIRC),
>having helped the then current ruler gain power. I believe his name was
>Robert Denard or something? He was famous mercenary in Africa, he was
>involved in a number of wars there from the 60's on. 

An even better example is the recently concluded Liberian civil war, in
which much of the Special Ops stuff was carried out by Executive Action, a
RSA-based mercenary group.

These guys did  everything from train cadre to assassainations, and were
paid in oil and mining stock.  EA is getting *very* rich off these types of
assignments.

Perhaps a group of Traveller Mercs could be offered shares in a lanthinum
of zuchhi crystal site, if they can clear out the Ine Givar base camp.. of
course, the mine could go bust (see recent events in Indonesia for more on
that adventure possibility)

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|   about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|   Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|     -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin" |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 97 17:23:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T97#1336] Need Help, please

Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com> writes...

T::>I am running my first Traveller campaign (I'm a long-time fantasy GM) and
 ::>am running into trouble.  Please offer suggestions.

T::>1) One of my players received "Traveller's Aid Society" as a mustering-out
 ::>benefit from the Navy.  He wonders why he should ever work, since he can
 ::>sell a high passage every two months, giving him an excellent income.

 Is Cr4,000/mo really that good?  Have you made him sit down and
 work out his expenses - and then drain his bank account as
 needed to meet them? What does he do for "steady income" if he
 decides instead to _use_ the high passage (two, actually), for
 a vacation trip or some such?

T::>2) The same character was hired to perform a job on a world some 20 jumps
 ::>distant from his starting point.  He purchased passage on a free trader
 ::>going in the right direction, but brought along several dozen small Tech-11
 ::>computers which he sold for profit on mid-tech worlds, reaping an excellent
 ::>profit which not only paid his way but afforded him a Cr50,000 profit.
 ::>What am I doing wrong?

 Tariffs?  Taxes?  Import and Export license fees?
 Infrastructure on the destination world to support the _use_ of
 the high-tech equipment?  There's a distinct possibility that
 the trade rules are broken, but...

 How much did he pay for passage?  A Free Trader is a J1 ship;
 his destination is 20 jumps.  Assume that he bought mid
 passage; that is (or should have been) a total of Cr100,000
 just for the trip. That doesn't include excess baggage over the
 1td he's allowed in the price of passage.  How much extra space
 do you bill him for, at Cr1,000/td?

T::>3) This one may be unanswerable.  Traveller has turned my players into gun
 ::>nuts.  I've purposfully  allowed very few situations to arise where
 ::>firepower is useful, but they're constantly looking for them and dreaming
 ::>of ways to knock off low-tech governments.  It's getting old and infantile
 ::>fast.  Any suggestions?

 Give 'em one or two situations every once in a while that will
 let them blow off some of that steam.  Judging from commentary
 on this list, there's enough balance in the combat rules that
 they have a good chance of being injured - the "holy shit, I'm
 _not_ Rambo" school of enlightenment.  If the dice say that one
 of your Rambo wannabees bought the farm, pull out the book and
 the dice and say "it's time to roll up a new character"...  And
 impose the appropriate penalties, in time and stat reduction,
 for healing.  It's potentially a lot of paperwork for you, but
 I think that your Rambozos will decide that it _is_ getting
 old, fast.  If not, there's always the Ultimate Penalty: keep
 the PC's; re-roll the players, as it were.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  ROMulus never wrote...

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1352
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, May 20 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1353



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: [T97#1334] Re: The Imperial Army
Re: [T97#1341] T4 Sales
Re: TML Helps Out!  (was FS data - what to do?)
Starport Question
Used MT Stuff Found
M0 Low Berths
Re: ANCIENT Grandfather
chill out you goobers :-)
Re: ANCIENT Grandfather
Re: In my opinion ....
Re: The last Straw

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 97 17:23:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T97#1334] Re: The Imperial Army

aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton) writes...

T::>In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970430111638.00a4cf5c@iconz.co.nz>

T::><< You only need to invade if you need the world's resources Right Now. If
 ::>you
 ::>can wait then just blockade. Blockades have the advantage that none of your
 ::>guys get killed, which is always good for you polical career. >>

T::>Nobles don't worry about being voted out of office.

 True.  Also, a blockade will only work if the world is not
 self-sufficient in everything it needs for survival.  A
 blockade of Earth or Sylea, for example, should not be expected
 to succeed, since it's reasonable to assume that they are
 self-sufficient in everything.  Sure, some people are going to
 be grumpy about not being able to get their once-a-year Nuteman
 dragon steaks (they treat themselves on their birthdays), but
 when you're being "oppressed", luxuries somehow seem to become
 truly dispensable.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  Jesus saves ... Passes to Moses ... Shoots ... Scores!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 97 17:23:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T97#1341] T4 Sales

Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com> writes...

T::>This doesn't surprise me one bit. I think it's ridiculous to assume that

T::>1) New players will buy a game so riddled with poor formatting (courier
 ::>fonts, bad production values), mediocre and non-Travelleresque art, and
 ::>broken rules when in a market that's already depressed there are so many
 ::>other choices available.

 Actually, the Courier wasn't a bad choice for the UWP data -
 it's a fixed-pitch font, which makes handling tabular data
 (which a sector list inarguably is) a little easier, for the
 user.  I happen to think that Courier is particularly ugly, and
 most renderings don't put enough weight on the strokes, and
 that Letter Gothic would have been a better choice - but the
 fixed-pitch, which is what people are usually complaining about
 when they complain about "Courier", wasn't at all a bad
 decision.

T::>2) Old players will buy a game that breaks canon at will (Fusion Plus) and
 ::>doesn't make a wholehearted attempt at satisfying either the TNE fans or
 ::>the CT fans who make up Traveller's core market.

 Bear in mind that this was before Marc took direct, personal
 creative control.  I read it as only explicating an unspoken
 assumption that existed previously, since, IIRC, the current
 rules governing F+ don't do any violence to extant CT material
 in the context that F+ is used.  But, the numbers were wrong,
 back in CT, so now they're explaining why they're right.  Now,
 if my memory is screwed up, then you can discard what I say
 here - I don't want to defend the indefensible.  But I don't
 usually make egregious errors like that.

T::>3) The game's foundation is a set of 20-year-old rules. You don't have to
 ::>make the game as complex as TNE (which, BTW I think is the best set of
 ::>mechanics for Trav), but you do have to make it complex and realistic
 ::>enough that it doesn't insult the players' intelligences. Also, PUH-LEAZE
 ::>playtest these things instead of just making them up and publishing them!
 ::>You cannot tell me that task system was playtested appropriately before
 ::>publication!

 On the other hand, the more complex you make a system, the less
 playable it is - as you implicitly assume in your comment about
 TNE.  Disregarding the question of broken or not broken, you
 still have to have a balance of playability versus realism; if
 you design it with a bias toward realism and then cut, you'll
 be able to sell the basic product to people who like
 simplicity, and then add-on supplements for the people who like
 realism, and be able to satisfy both without making them
 outright incompatible with each other.

 Now, before you go off on me for the above, remember - I've
 explicitly said to disregard the question of brokenness.  Take
 it in that light.

T::>I'm afraid Traveller, as we know it, may be doomed. I only hope someone
 ::>picks up the flag.

 I disagree.  It was Classic Traveller that "made" Traveller;
 I've seen nothing to challenge the assertion that it was the
 best-selling Traveller ever.  Throughout the TNE era, people
 were waxing nostalgic about CT/MT (which were really the same
 system), and they clamored for a return to the CT system and
 background.  T4 answers that clamor.  A properly done T4, with
 its other milieux, will give us much of what we asked, begged,
 and pleaded for, but never received, from GDW.  If future
 products conform generally to the standard of quality set by
 Emperor's Arsenal, (and if Marc and IG can get some publicity
 other than word-of-mouth,) I think T4 can, if not setting a
 standard, at least become a highly visible and competitive
 player in the RPG market.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  Iraqi bingo: B52, F18, F15, F16, F111, M1...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 17:11:10 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: TML Helps Out!  (was FS data - what to do?)

> At 01:28 AM 5/20/97 +0000, you wrote:
> >
> >> 	Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't somebody produce _good_ data already
> >> (for M0, I think?) that got thrown out in favor of FS? Why redo work?
> >
> >Heck, if somebody has already redone all 18 sectors of FS, then speak 
> >up.  We need to evaluate it.

Oops.  I counted wrong.  There's only 9 sectors in FS.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 17:33:34 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Starport Question

I've read someplace (and I need to find where) about the distinction 
between orbital starports and downports.

It was something like--Class A and B starports on worlds are 
considered to have both orbital and ground instellations whereas 
class C and lower ports are only downports.

Anybody know anything about this?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 17:27:52 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Used MT Stuff Found

A couple of TMLers have helped me out in finding rare Traveller stuff 
at cheap prices--Joe Walsh and Merrick Burkhardt to name two.

Yesterday, I spotted some used MT stuff at a local used book store, 
and I'd like to pay back the favor by helping anybody who is 
interested in getting these items.

I just glanced at them, and they are in worn condition.  I should 
have written down the prices, but I think they were about 5 bucks 
each.

If you are interested in any of these, contact me, and I'll skedaddle 
back down to the store to get them for you before they are gone.  You 
will only pay the store's price and postage--I'm just doing this to 
help out fellow TMLers.

The items were--

MT Player's Manual

MT Referee's Manual

MT Imperial Encyclopedia

MT adventure:  Assignment Vigilante

Again, I'll have to check on the prices, but I know at least one of 
them was only $5.

Kenneth
dreamer@brokersys.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 17:58:40 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: M0 Low Berths

I've been reading an excellent article on low berths in issue 21 of 
the Traveller's Digest, and in it, I found a few paragraphs on low 
berth use in Milieu 0.

It is interesting that this article was published way back in 
October, 1990.

(Quote from Mike Mikesh and James Holden's article, Suspended 
Animation.)

More common in the Imperium, however, is the cold berth.  As brutal as
low tech cold berths might seem, freezing occupants with supercooled
fluids, they were standard in the Third Imperium until the 300s. 
Their low cost and simplicity made them easy to manufacture.

Such berths found much use in that era, for the Long Night had left
trillions in miserable conditions, and many of these were desperate
enough to risk their lives for a chance at escape.  Those unfortunates
were quickly recruited by corporations in need of manpower and shipped
off to out of the way destinations.

A common custom of the day was the low lottery.  Under the steward's
direction, the ship's captain contributed Cr10 out of each low
passage.  Each low passenger guessed the number of low travelers who
would survive the trip.  If the winner himself died, the captain got
the money.  This practice provided some chance for the typically
destitute low passengers to have some money upon their arrival.

Since those times, more advanced cold berths have come into use, and
new designs have been invented.  The emergency cold berth, double
standard size, accommodates four occupants of adult size.  At tech 15,
it can freeze the occupants--fully-clothed and unprepared--within
sixty seconds.  To do this, it forgoes all preliminary steps, trading
ease of entry for a lengthy and difficult revival.


(and I also found this quote about the frozen watch--which could be 
applicable to M0)

The Navy has adapted emergency low berth procedures for its frozen
watch program.  In the heat of battle, vital personnel can easily be
incapacitated.  To this end, the Navy places additional crew members
on its capital ships in suspended animation.  These crew replacements
are known as the frozen watch.

Frozen watch procedures reverse those for emergency berths.  Crewmen
are readied for freezing and installed with great care, a process
taking about three hours at tech level 15.  All potential problems are
identified and corrected in advance.  This allows the system to thaw
occupants without the careful monitoring and adjusting that would
otherwise go on.  Generally, frozen watch personnel are awake and
alert within five minutes after the cycle out procedure is started.



And, that's all the info.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:54:45 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: ANCIENT Grandfather

On Tue, 20 May 1997, Anders Backman wrote:

Hmmm, what artifact?

> >He is psionic !
> >
> >Yes he could have helped the major races but why would he want to.
> >Since we know that the Ancient artifact the Zhodhani have that prompted
> >them to do the Core Expiditions gives accurate representations of the
> >future is it really so hard to imagine that Yaskodray knew they were
> >going to be important later & stuck pictures of them on the coyns to
> >help socialize the Droyne about who they were going to have to deal
> >with.

[snip]

PaChi,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


"The world is full of fools, and he who would not see it should live
 alone and smash his mirror."
						  - Claude le Petite

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 16:37:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com>
Subject: chill out you goobers :-)

Suz Dollar writes:
> The tone of the list has gotten to such that I can't abide
> reading it anymore. The posts have devolved into infantile
> attacks... It's not worth the depression, it's not worth the
> headaches, it's not worth crying over personal, insensitive,
> obnoxious attacks on friends. I'm leaving, but I'll be around for
> a day or two to watch your reactions. I wouldn't want to be
> called a sniveling whining coward by anyone.

<sigh> <rubbing face> <taking a deep breath>

I usually don't get into "discussions" like this, but I just can't
bear to watch it anymore. Let me tell you what I'm seeing. Maybe
it'll help and maybe it won't.

As I recall, Paul Walker posted his "Confessions of a Traveller
Junkie" on the 16th. He told us, essentially, that he felt really
let down by IG, that their list of mistakes had grown to the point
that he felt that they weren't really trying anymore, that it was
just a means of making money to them, that the spirit of Traveller,
and likewise the pride they should have in their own work, just
wasn't there, or at the very least that it wasn't being exhibited.
In a fit of artistic license, he even compared the way he felt to
the way an abused wife might feel, bringing in the hot topic of
wife-rape, which later became a point of contention. His main
thrust, however, (no pun intended) was that he'd be leaving the
hobby, not just because of the way he'd felt he'd been treated, but
because there were a lot more pressing matters in his life, and
something had to give. Traveller, in part due to the actions of IG,
became that something.

If I were Marc Miller, I think I would have felt obligated to
respond in some manner, even if it would just be to admit that
things had gotten a little out of hand, that IG hadn't been paying
enough attention to the details, and that mistakes were made that
could and should have been avoided.

How much effort does it take to apologize?

For some people, quite a lot, and I've come the conclusion that
Marc just doesn't make apologetic speeches. Perhaps we're just a
bunch of peons as far as he's concerned. I don't know, but the
level of communication from IG to this list could be better. That
it hasn't been signifies something, and I'm not too sure what.

In any case, I don't think I'm the only person who feels this way,
because Jeff Zeitlin wrote a long post essentially concurring with
everything that Paul had written. Ken Bearden, likewise, felt put
off by IG, and he attacked with the vigor typical of somebody who
really cares about the game and wants to see it improve. I think he
often goes a little too far in this respect, but it's a question of
style, and I can certainly see his point of view.

Sometimes, to make a change, you have to scream and shout. I
remember when Ken Whitman came out with an internet policy for IG
that we weren't too happy about, and as soon as the screaming and
the shouting started they quickly changed the policy. I'm a big
believer in screaming and shouting, but only if pressing the other
buttons fails to accomplish anything positive.

Had all the other buttons been pressed?

I think yes and no. I think a great many buttons had been pressed.
For example, somebody wrote that IG just wasn't getting the
message, and maybe we should forward them TML digests along with
content summaries.

Ken Bearden replied:
> I'm not sure if that would work, Dave.  In fact, I'm not even
> sure if IG cares.  For a while, when I found a piece of errata in
> the IG products, I would forward a short message to IG at
> suggestions@imperiumgame.com.  I figured that I was doing my part
> by forwarding these things.  Silly me, I figured that IG would be
> interested in errors in their products and want to correct them
> in future printings.  Well, I got a message from IG saying that
> I shouldn't forward this stuff anymore, and if I had an actual
> game question, they gave me another e-mail address to forward it
> to.  So, given this, I'm not really sure if IG really cares what
> we all think of their using obviously bad data in the new
> printing of FS/M0.  They are going to do it anyway, so why even
> try to make this game we love so much better than it is?

I think Ken had made a solid effort to communicate with IG in a
friendly fashion. He wasn't just a screamer, yelling about how bad
everything was. He was actually trying to help by sending specific
suggestions in a private manner. And IG's response to his overtures
was somewhat less than acceptable, at least by my way of thinking.

At the same time, however, there was more that could have been
done. Marc Miller could have been individually contacted in this
regard. Courtney Solomon could have been as well (as Volker
Greimann seems to be doing). Individual members of IG's team could
have been solicited for information about what sort of wheels are
turning at IG, who's making the decisions, what is the process, and
how can the TML have an influence on this process as well as how
can we get explanations for the decisions that are made?

Operating in the dark is never a good thing, and I think that's the
way it felt for both Ken and for Paul. They didn't want press
announcements. They wanted some insight into what's really going on
down there. They wanted reassurance from a real live human being
that IG cared about quality and that appropriate steps were being
taken to correct past problems so that they wouldn't recur in the
future. But, of course, they never got this reassurance, and this
caused Paul to quit the game and caused Ken to get extremely upset,
so that he was soon posting multiple messages every night, getting
too emotionally involved in the whole thing.

In any case, somebody, I don't know who, must have figured that
enough was enough, because he said:

> Let's calm down a little on the IG front - the next thing we'll
> have is T4 book burnings...

To which Ken Bearden replied:

> I love it!  Burn, baby, burn! :)

Please notice the smiley. Either he's smiling because he really
likes the idea or he's smiling because he's making a joke and is
not really serious about wanting to burn books. I'm not going to
speculate on which one is the case, but I think it's illustrative
how if you leave open the possibility for two different
interpretations, particularly on a mailing list that has well over
a hundred subscribers, that if there is even just a 1% chance of
somebody making the "wrong" interpretation, at least one person
will.

So along comes Twolf, who has had just about enough of the anti-IG
sentiment and of Ken's multiple posts per night:

> Well, that is the final straw. I had subscribed to TML (Traveller
> Mailing List) to share ideas about my hobby; not to the KBL
> (Kenneth Bitch List) which now advocates the burning of books.

He went on to compare Ken to a neo-nazi. Now even I have bad days,
but everyone on the Internet knows that once you mention the word
"nazi" in any discussion not involving Germany during the 1930s,
the discussion is essentially over. Just drop it, because there's
no use even continuing.

Well, of course it wasn't over. Allen was extremely annoyed at
Paul, because he felt that comparing what IG had done to a husband
raping his wife was way overboard, and that touched off a whole
other flamefest which I won't even get into.

So let me get to my conclusion...

IG has really made some mistakes. It's almost as though they don't
believe in proof-reading. Either they aren't interested in the work
they're doing or they're just on such a tight schedule that they
don't have time to step back and look at what they're putting out.
Either way, they've made quite a few mistakes and they have to fix
them.

In the meantime, people on this list are getting angry about it,
and since IG isn't very responsive to the list anymore, people are
taking out their frustrations on each other. That, of course, leads
to flame wars, and as a result, some of the people who have been
the most active in our little nook of the online community are
getting ready to call it quits and say goodbye. I just don't see
that as a very pleasant option.

Steve Brengard writes:
> It's getting so bad that no one can say anything without
> offending someone. Get over it. We all live in a world of
> differing opinions. You MUST accept that other have differing
> opinions than yours, and you MUST accept that they are entitled
> to their opinions. You may not agree with those opinions, but
> that simply does not invalidate them. So if you need to run away
> because someone's comments offended you, so be it. But you'll be
> running for the rest of your life. People will continue to offend
> one another all over the world, and running away will not solve
> that.

And I agree, at least with this portion of his statement. However,
I also recognize that Suz wasn't getting offended about the
discussion regarding IG. What was offending her was the personal
attacks.

Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com> goes on to write:
> Before we lose anyone else valuable to this list, could we all
> make a concerted effort to keep the subject matter related to
> Traveller in its many forms? While I can understand how bitching
> about IG is Traveller-related, personal attacks are not.

And this, I think, is the rub. Disagreeing with each other is fine,
but resorting to personal attacks isn't. Likewise, those who have
done the most bitching about Imperium Games need to step back for
a minute and ask whether or not they're flooding the list with
their opinions, and in so doing, getting on everyone's nerves.
Personally, I try to post with extreme infrequency, but when I
post, I like make it long and say what I want to say. I wish the
people who are bitching about IG would do likewise. You don't have
to post several times every night to make your point. You don't
have to post a follow-up to every other message. Just say what you
need to say, pack it with as much information as you've got, take
time with it, proofread it, look for ways in which your statements
might be misinterpreted, show us that you care as much about the
presentation of your arguments as you wish IG would care about the
presentation of its product, and only then press the send key.

And as for Suz Dollar... and anyone else who's been thinking of
bailing whether out of annoyance toward IG or toward certain TML
members... I urge you not to lose hope just yet. IG is beginning to
improve, albeit we had to kick and shove them into the right
direction. Likewise, these flamefests come and go. In another month
we'll be back to arguing about fractional-c rocks. Won't that be
fun...

One last thing I'll bring up. Just prior to Paul Walker's
"Confessions", somebody (I think it was Twolf) said:

> HEY! Grow Up! You have the right to voice your opinion, but when
> IG doesn't take your opinion or position, then move on. If you
> don't like that they didn't drop the 3 sided dice, Fine! Won't
> fix FS, Fine! Don't buy IG products! GO write your own game but
> leave this whining, whimpering, drool off the net. It is a waste
> of bandwidth.

As rudely as this is stated, he has a point. If IG isn't doing a
good job, and isn't making the effort to do a better job, then they
don't deserve our business. Paul illustrated this notion. He left.
If IG has been uncommunicative with the list, allowing these
flamewars to fester when they could have easily quashed the entire
thing with a well-worded explanation, perhaps even a (gasp)
apology, then we really need to reevaluate, like Paul did, how we
are spending our free time. Traveller came along at a great moment,
and it's pulled a lot of Science Fiction enthusiasts together, but
the RPG market is much bigger now, and there are a lot of other
games out there. Likewise, publishing your own on the Internet
isn't as hard as it might seem. It takes time, it takes dedication,
but ultimately, it's a lot more rewarding than simply trying to fix
somebody else's system. Maybe when IG realizes this, and sees
Traveller-enthusiasts dropping off like so many flies in a bug-
zapper, they'll get the message, put more work and more effort into
what they're doing, organize the TML into working groups for the
specific purpose of proofreading manuscripts prior to publication,
actively solicit for material, and responding in a timely manner
through their volunteer net-rep to all the gripes that their
customers have about their products and about their way of doing
business. Then, Traveller will be a much better game, but I don't
think it will happen until there is sufficient inducement for them
to make it happen, and in that sense, Paul, by leaving, has
actually done Traveller a service. And that, I think, is a very
pleasant irony.

jimv@empirenet.com

PS: Paul, if you happen to read this, please consider coming back.
    You're one of the more level-headed people on this list, and
    I'd really hate to see what becomes of the TML w/o you. Likewise
    for you too, Suz. You've done too much good work to just chuck
    it all because of one lousy argument. And as for IG, get on this
    list and start talking to us, you cornholes :-)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:00:38 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: ANCIENT Grandfather

On Tue, 20 May 1997, Anders Backman wrote:

> >> >> Assuming that there are more inteligent major races in the galaxy,
> >> >> he choose the 6 we are familiar with, because these are the six which are
> >> >> closest to the Droyne home world (where ever that is).
> >>
> >> Not the case - there are several sophonts in the Spinward marches alone -
> >> much closer to Droyne homeworld than say Aslans or Kkree.
> >
> >Good point, but I said *major* race.  Then again it might have been a
> >GDW design decision and no reasoning can be attached to it at this point
> >in time.
> 
> Circular to the extreme.
> We're talking about how he could have known which races to be major before
> they had any technology at all. You said maybe he just picked the 6 closest
> to home. I say nay there are lots closer that weren't picked.
> Then you say he picked the six closest that were MAJOR races. I stand
> mentally stunned for 1D6 rounds ?!??
> 
> (All in good fun etc etc)

hehehehe  Sorry to confuse you, I was just thinking out a loud.  I think
you missed what I said somewhat;

I assert he picked the 6 races near the Droyne homeworld (which is wrong
it seems from other evidence, but I wont worry about that)

You assert that their are many more races closer to the Droyne home world
then the 6 on the coyns.

I relent and agree with you, and then assert that he picked the 6 closest
Major race's (or the six who would most likely affect the droyne's
destiney ?).

I am not confused:)

PaChi,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


"The world is full of fools, and he who would not see it should live
 alone and smash his mirror."
						  - Claude le Petite

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:29:50 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: In my opinion ....

On Tue, 20 May 1997, Steve Brengard wrote:

> In my opinion I see 'offended' personalities as a sign the direction the World Community is headed, and it's a damn shame. I believe that most members of the list live and work within the national boundaries of the United States. Last time I checked, the constitution still protected the right of free speech. Every US citizen is entitled to free speech. If someone chooses to express there option, no matter if with taste or without, so be it. It is this same right that allows all of us to respond to such opinions. If you do not like a post or opinion, that great! If you like and support an opinion or post, that's great too!

No all are from the USA, I am from Australia, free speech is a privelage
not a right and it can be revoked.  

Anyway as free speech pertains to this list, what you said means
jack.

The list runs on a *private* server, therefore when you post to the
server your using someone elses property with permission.  If that
permission is withdrawn by the owner then you have no recourse.  Free
speech is not pertinent unless the *owner* promotes it.  The owner can be
as arbitary as s/he wishs with the rules of *his* list on *his* server.

God bless capatalism


> 
> But lets  be adults about it all. This liberalist  path the US has
taken UPSETS  me. That's right, its getting so bad that no one can say
anything without offending someone. Get over it. We all live in a world
of differing opinions. You MUST accept that other have differing opinions
then yours, and you MUST accept that they are entitled to their opinions. You may not agree with those opinions, but that simply does not invalidate them. 
> 

This I agree with whole heartedly - down with political correctness!



PaChi,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


"The world is full of fools, and he who would not see it should live
 alone and smash his mirror."
						  - Claude le Petite

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 18:02:40 +0000
From: "Tim Reynolds" <tim@premier1.premier.net>
Subject: Re: The last Straw

Date:          Tue, 20 May 1997 16:30:57 -0400
From:          hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
To:            traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject:       Re: The last Straw
Reply-to:      traveller@MPGN.COM

Tim Reynolds writes: 

>Ok, as you all know by now Twolf is a friend of mine.
>I was not happy with what he did but I talked to him 
>and explained his reasons and I have accepted them
>as I accept him as a friend.

   Well the rest of us would love to hear what they were.  They have to
go much deeper than what he put in the originial "The last Straw" post.

Harold,  they go back deeper then that and since it is personal I cant 
tell you.

>Now for the rest of you  fools its one thing to decided to leave an 
>argument because you cant take the stupid  people and dont want to 
>argue any more.  But its  coward  that  hits  somebody 
>after they have left.

   
>  If you were a true man harold you would have said this before he 
> left to his face. 

   Please forward my remarks to him with my compliments.  My e-mail
address should he want to reply is hdhale@siscom.net, in case that info
gets garbled in the header to this message.  By the way, it is rather
difficult to say something to someone's face after they leave the room
and slam the door.


Well as you said you have header 

If you want to write to him to show your anger or disapointment you 
could have done it in private.  Instead it seems that you had 
something to prove by makeing that attack and it had nothing to do 
with traveller.  Just your Ego.


> If you want to know I think that his actions made him more mature 
> then any of us.  He has moved away from you worthless people.  

   No, it makes him a spoiled little child.  And how did you get access
to my financial data?

Boy you are a load of laughts.  Dont quite your day job as they say

> I would do the same but I dont turn my back on known scum 

   You're right.  I know because you haven't turned your back on Twolf.

See that is what I am so angary at its the personal attack that you 
just seem not to want to quit.  If you did you and the others would 
have posted to me in person.  Instead your garabage is still going to 
the mailing list.

> Just calling them as I know them

   I can recommend a remedial course if you're interested.

Well I see you just dont understand

> I apologize  to the rest of the members of the TML for my actions, but 
> I cant let this go.  I will no longer post on this subject.  If some 
> of you want a fight my email is attached and I ll reply to those
> email  sent to that address.

   To make sure you'll get this, I've taken the step of cc:ing your
e-mail address.

Yea and to the TML I guess you just cant keep out of the public eye 
do you feel more like a man now.

   Look, it is apparent that you and Suz hold some kind of admiration
for this guy, why I don't know.  While he might have satisfactorily
explained things to you as to why he had a "hissy" and left, the rest of
the list is either irritated at him, insulted, or just lamenting the
poor tone of the list.  Now that being the case, has it occured to you
yet that perhaps his actions were indefensible, and it would be best
just to admit that he was wrong and get on with life?

Its called friendship.  At first I disagreed with him and decided to 
stay.  But you and even more so Ken  have made this very hard for me 
to stay.  Now realy go back and look at Ken's post from the day 
alone.  Notice how much he enjoys this.  Twolf left angrly and maybe 
wrongly but he left.  Ken and others including you and me  want to contuine 
to post the insults.  That is why I want all the stuff sent to me 
personaly not the TML.  It solves nothing and only angers us more.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1353
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, May 20 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1354



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Ancient Grandfather
Re: In my opinion ....
Re: Ancient Grandfather
Re: Ancient Grandfather
Famille Spofulam's next project...
IG Request for Inputs
Re: M0 Low Berths
Casualties
Glenn Grant please email me
Re: Starport Question

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:49:37 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Ancient Grandfather

On Tue, 20 May 1997, Ethan Henry wrote:

[snip]
> Uh, ok, I know you love the Solomani and all, but...
> The _Vilani_ invented the concept of minor/major races.
> The Terrans/early Solomani didn't actually subscribe to the concept of
> "minor" races.  The later Solomani were straight-out bigots, everyone
> was "minor" compared to them.
> 

Joke man, take it easy.

> Anyways, more on this...
> 
> 
> >> What? There's _lots_ of evidence.
> >
> >Actually no there is not.  Reverse engineering something is different from
> >somebody handing you a technology.  What I am saying here is that
> >Grandfather did not appear to each race during a specific time and said
> >"here, this is jump drive, this is how you use it - now go colonise the
> >Universe!"  there is zero evidence for this for most of the "major races"
> 
> Huh. Well, Glenn Hoppe (sp?) agrees with me, so nyah! ;)
> 

Thats good.

> I agree with you that Grandfather didn't just show up one day 
> and drop off jump drives with instruction manuals. It's my assertion
> that he did place them about "strategically" so that they would
> be found. I mean, really, the _same thing_ has been invented in
> _the exact same way_ all over the universe not only by different
> human cultures, but also by _different races_??? Like, this stretches
> it a bit.
> 

I actually like the whole concept of it takes a freak of nature to create 
this sort of stuff. I also liked the hyperspace is an
artifact concept, but is there evidence that all the races
reverse-engineered the idea?  I don't think so.  Of course you can do what
you like, thats the beuty of RPG.

[snip]
> >> The Solmani - hm, discovered Ancient Artifacts in the asteroid belt
> >>  and on some Jovian moons, discovers jump drive in the same place...
> >>  Hmmmm... coincidence?
> >
> >I think the solomani discovered it, thats why they went so quickly from
> >J-1 drives to J-3.  Also, the Solomani alien module does not say anything
> >about ancient sites on the moons of Jupiter(that i can find anyway) - your
> >thinking of 2010.
> 
> No I'm not. Sheesh. Tell you what - I'll go home and check _all_ of
> the Alien modules, Solomani & Aslan, Vilani & Vargr and all my
> MT stuff too. Sheesh - please don't tell me I don't know what I'm
> talking about. We all know what we're talking about.
> 

Lighten up man, open the windows and let out the tension. I did not say
you dont what your talking about.  I can not even see how you got that
from my paragraph.

> On a completely irrelevant note, this is what really burns me.
> This is a mailing list. You can ignore what you don't like.
> Don't tell me, or anyone, to shut up and don't tell me I'm getting
> Traveller confused with 2010.

I did not tell you to shut up.  You asserted that all jump drives are the
indirect creation of Grandfather.  You spoke as if you had evidence for
this fact, I asked to see the evidence from the Alien modules.  Thats all.  

On the other hand if its something for you'r RPG than you don't need me
telling you that you can do what you like.

Man, don't take everything personally.

> 
> >> The Hivers - they developed the "inferior" jump drive by themselves,
> >>  but after a few hundred years of exploration, one day, poof! A new,
> >>  better jump drive! How about they discovered an Ancient site
> >>  and "upgraded" their drives.
> >
> >Dont have the module so cant say - but a few hundred years is a pretty
> >long time, I am sure Grandfather did not help them.
> 
> Well, "I am sure" that they probably discovered something that
> really changed their idea of how jump drive is supposed to work.
> I doubt it was corn dogs.

I doubt it to.  It depends on what paradigm your working in.  If you say
that jump drives are only an ancient tech and that the races just reverse
enginer the thing, then fine, your point is valid.

If you work in the concept that all races who are technically advanced
enougth can invent jump drives, then the hivers just refined their tech
until they got a better device.

As you said, just a theory.

> 
> Anyways, this is just all a _theory_. If you have trouble 
> finding everything I've said written down, it's probably because it's
> all a product of my warped imagination.


PaChi,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


"The world is full of fools, and he who would not see it should live
 alone and smash his mirror."
						  - Claude le Petite

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:58:11 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: In my opinion ....

On Tue, 20 May 1997, Joseph Chepe Lockett wrote:

[snip]
> GONG!  Thank you for playing.  The Constitution describes relations
> between the government and its citizens, not between citizens themselves. 
> The government may not ban speech -- but the TML, for example, certainly
> can, *within* *its* *private* *area* *of* *ownership*.  It would be
> perfectly legal within the U.S. for MPGN to remove list members from TML
> for rude or vulgar speech. 
>  

Chepe and I are not the best of friends, but I have to agree.  I said a
similiar thing in another post.  It erks the living daylights out of me
whenever an American quotes the "freedom of speech" act and uses it
justify saying what s/he wants on a list.

I am sure it also irratates other non-americans.

> > Oh, and if I offended anyone, tough sh!t. Deal with it.
> 
> And for infantile behavior of this sort, perhaps MPGN should....
> 

Profanity is ignorance made audible.



PaChi,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


"The world is full of fools, and he who would not see it should live
 alone and smash his mirror."
						  - Claude le Petite

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:00:01 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Ancient Grandfather

On Tue, 20 May 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> At 10:55 AM 5/20/97 -0400, Ethan wrote:
> >From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
> 
> >>I think the solomani discovered it, thats why they went so quickly from
> >>J-1 drives to J-3.  Also, the Solomani alien module does not say anything
> >>about ancient sites on the moons of Jupiter(that i can find anyway) - your
> >>thinking of 2010.
> >
> >No I'm not. Sheesh. Tell you what - I'll go home and check _all_ of
> >the Alien modules, Solomani & Aslan, Vilani & Vargr and all my
> >MT stuff too. Sheesh - please don't tell me I don't know what I'm
> >talking about. We all know what we're talking about.
> 
> "Solomani & Aslan", pg 5.  (On Venus) "Subsequent exploration revealed that
> Venus was the site of an unfinished Ancient terraforming effort.
> Apparently, the Final War interrupted the project, and without outside
> control, the planet's unbalanced enviroment degraded to its present state."
> 
> ibid, pg 7.  "Today, Titan is best known as an Ancient site.  Although
> archeolgists have announced no major finds, evidence found on Venus
> suggests grand discoveries await."
> 
> It is also noted that both the Imperium and Solomani enforce a 1 AU
> exclusion zone around Pluto.
> 
> You want fries with that crow?
> 
> >On a completely irrelevant note, this is what really burns me.
> >This is a mailing list. You can ignore what you don't like.
> >Don't tell me, or anyone, to shut up and don't tell me I'm getting
> >Traveller confused with 2010.
> 
> True.  I really dislike people who have admitted that they don't even play
> the game *telling* me how things are "supposed" to be.

Man, take i

> 
> --
> +-------------------------------------------------+
> |   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
> |      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
> |   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
> |         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
> |*************************************************|
> |   "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
> |   about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
> |   Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
> |     -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin" |
> +-------------------------------------------------+
> 


PaChi,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


"The world is full of fools, and he who would not see it should live
 alone and smash his mirror."
						  - Claude le Petite

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:07:44 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Ancient Grandfather

On Tue, 20 May 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> At 10:55 AM 5/20/97 -0400, Ethan wrote:
> >From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
> 
> >>I think the solomani discovered it, thats why they went so quickly from
> >>J-1 drives to J-3.  Also, the Solomani alien module does not say anything
> >>about ancient sites on the moons of Jupiter(that i can find anyway) - your
> >>thinking of 2010.
> >
> >No I'm not. Sheesh. Tell you what - I'll go home and check _all_ of
> >the Alien modules, Solomani & Aslan, Vilani & Vargr and all my
> >MT stuff too. Sheesh - please don't tell me I don't know what I'm
> >talking about. We all know what we're talking about.
> 
> "Solomani & Aslan", pg 5.  (On Venus) "Subsequent exploration revealed that
> Venus was the site of an unfinished Ancient terraforming effort.
> Apparently, the Final War interrupted the project, and without outside
> control, the planet's unbalanced enviroment degraded to its present state."
> 
> ibid, pg 7.  "Today, Titan is best known as an Ancient site.  Although
> archeolgists have announced no major finds, evidence found on Venus
> suggests grand discoveries await."
> 
> It is also noted that both the Imperium and Solomani enforce a 1 AU
> exclusion zone around Pluto.
> 
> You want fries with that crow?

Hold the sauce.  I was refering to the Solomani Alien module, I also
pointed out their was nothing *I* could find, which is reasonable since I
dont have the module your quoting from.  

I don't know what your problem is with me, but you always seem to take a
very confrontational attitude towards my posts.  I was *very* careful not
to say "It's wrong, it's not the way it is" - I said "I think".

> 
> >On a completely irrelevant note, this is what really burns me.
> >This is a mailing list. You can ignore what you don't like.
> >Don't tell me, or anyone, to shut up and don't tell me I'm getting
> >Traveller confused with 2010.
> 
> True.  I really dislike people who have admitted that they don't even play
> the game *telling* me how things are "supposed" to be.
> 

I challenge you to find in my post where I told him he was wrong, or the
way Ethan was doing it was not the "right way".  I think you should read
the whole post before agreeing with only a section of the post out of
context.

As far as I know David Golden (?) does not play at the moment, so what's
with the crack?  I don't play the game, so I am not entitled to an
opinion?



PaChi,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


"The world is full of fools, and he who would not see it should live
 alone and smash his mirror."
						  - Claude le Petite

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 21:08:36 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Famille Spofulam's next project...

	...is a 1000mm hypervelocity VRF gauss mass driver firing
matter/antimatter warheads (for shooting down Virus-infested frac-cee
asteroids), and if people don't stop all this pathetic whingeing I'm going
to hurry it through the pipeline so I can use it on them.


	I am getting seriously annoyed.


	People, please stop the whining and start posting Traveller-related
material.  This is not alt. flame nor some kiddie BBS, and the only people
who give a damn about who said what to who first and so forth and why their
right to do so was constitutionally protected are yourselves.  Traveller,
not pissing contests, is the reason for this list.  Take it to private
email.

	And that is all I'm every going to say about the Great TML
Disgracefest of May '97.

R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 19:16:18 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: IG Request for Inputs

main()
{
   Soapbox.Init();
   Soapbox.Mount();
   Soapbox.Expound("

Friends, Solomani, Countrymen, lend me your ear!

I spoke for a while with Tim Brown at IG today, and one of the subjects was
the M0/FS "issue." (Is that what we call a shark feeding frenzy nowadays,
where people wind up tearing each other up? An "issue?"). Anyway, he's
interested in hearing how you'd like to see errata made available. He asked
me to post a general request for inputs, and asked that you send them to
the game mechanics address IG has set up: mailto:gamehelp@imperiumgames.com.

What he's NOT interested in, and nobody really is, are empty complaints or
attacks. Now, this list has gotten rather hot, people have taken personal
offense, and gone off in a few huffs. But none of this would have happened
if people didn't care and have strong opinions.

If you'd like to make your opinion known, PLEASE:

	1) Take a few deep breaths.
	2) Count to 10
		a) ... in High Vilani.
	3) Write a short, reasoned email explaining how you'd like to see the
errata, and why.
	4) Go back and look at what you wrote in 3, and see if it's possible from
a purely business point of view... giving free copies of the new hardback
to everybody who sends in the cover from the old books might be a wet
dream, but they'd go out of business. And then who'd keep the flame?

Remember, despite the ideal of judging things by their content and not
their cover, a well-written, grammatically correct, easily understood
statement always carries more impact than a hodge-podge, emotionally-laden,
potpourri that may distill down to the same idea.

Also remember that content is important. As we've seen lately, nobody likes
personal attacks. Nobody at IG CHOSE this situation deliberately. Be
creative, be constructive, be cool."

   Soapbox.End();
   Soapbox.Stow();
}

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 18:49:57 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: M0 Low Berths

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> 
> I've been reading an excellent article on low berths in issue 21 of
> the Traveller's Digest, and in it, I found a few paragraphs on low
> berth use in Milieu 0.
> 

Well thanks! That's another entry for my Library manual. Anything
else interesting in those old mags?
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 21:36:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: pierre-louis constantin <Pierre-Louis.Constantin@DMI.USherb.CA>
Subject: Casualties

Hi there!
 
	A recent message from Jeff Zeitlin about characters who 'buy
the farm' made me wonder.  I'm one of those referees who threatens to
kill the characters all the time but never actually does it.  I think
I should do it more often though, so my idea is to get the characters
killed but use some battlefield first aid to "bring them back to
life", so the players learn their lesson but keep their characters...
 
	So what exactly would all that battlefield first aid be?  You
can't always have a low berth close by or whatnot.  What would high
TL first aid be?   Portable berths for 1 limb?  Just wondering.
 
	
I for one, am glad that free speech doesn't apply to mailing lists.

- -- 
Pierre-Louis Constantin, ift. a. 	"He whose name was writ in E-mail."
(: "I hate fanatics with a passion; all extremists should be shot." :)
	    How's my surfing? http://www.dmi.usherb.ca/~constanp/

------------------------------

Date: 21 May 1997 01:56:15 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Glenn Grant please email me

Sorry for wasted bandwidth, but you Mac types will benefit from this, so...

Glenn, I deleted your email address by mistake, and I want to email you an
updated beta of Metator (0.1.3).  This one has the stellar information in the
HTML/text exports as you requested, and a couple of minor bug fixes.  I'd
like your input on making systems easier to edit, too.  (Actually, the
easier-to-edit part goes for everyone.)

One unfixed bug: don't save systems with animal encounter tables unless you
have a backup of the system data -- this may corrupt the file (I've narrowed
it down to a couple of routines, but it will take more time to solve.)  

Rob Prior

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 18:46:58 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@pop.goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: Starport Question

> I've read someplace (and I need to find where) about the distinction 
> between orbital starports and downports.
> 
> It was something like--Class A and B starports on worlds are 
> considered to have both orbital and ground instellations whereas 
> class C and lower ports are only downports.
> 
> Anybody know anything about this?
> 
> Kenneth.

Ken,

There is information along these lines contained in the following 
text.  It is a post from Marc Miller. It was posted to the list on 
March 14...

My apologies for the length, but its worth the repost.

Suz



Every Adventure Begins and Ends at a Starport
 Every adventure begins and ends at a starport. Starports are the
 means by
which the citizens of every modern society begin their individual
journeys to the stars. These complex constructions provide all of the
facilities and services necessary to support, repair, maintain, and
service the starships that carry interstellar passengers and freight.
They are the central crossroads that all interstellar traffic must
pass through. It stands to reason, then, that interstellar travellers
naturally gravitate to starports... to meet starships and crew, to buy
and sell cargoes, and to begin and end their adventures.
 Starports offer two opportunities for adventure. Travellers can board
 a ship
and travel to the next world, or they can follow the concourse to the
main gate and move out to explore the world they are on. In both
cases, there is an infinity of opportunities for adventure.
 Beginning Adventures. An adventure can start anywhere, but for
 convenience
and for continuity, a starting point must be assigned. That assignment
says that an adventure begins at a starport. When characters enter a
starport, their intent is to find adventure. The details of that
adventure may not become clear until later, but the adventure clearly
begins at the starport.
 Ending Adventures. Likewise, the details, the climax and even the
 payoff for
adventures may take place anywhere, but every adventurer knows in his
or her heart that its not over until they reach the starport.
 The Endless Cycle. So, at the very moment that an adventure ends, a
 new one
begins. The endless cycle in Traveller is the end of an old adventure
and the beginning of a new one; each builds on the previous, and the
cycle never ends until the characters stop going to the starport.

 THE SITUATION INSYSTEM
 A star system is composed of a primary star and one or more stellar
companions. Orbiting these stars are a variety of planets, planetoid
belts, and gas giants. Orbiting planets and gas giants are a variety
of satellites. But the focus is one world... the mainworld... which is
the overall best planet or satellite in the system.
 The mainworld has a starport which, for all practical purposes, is
 the
destination of interstellar traffic entering the system. Starports
vary in their capabilities and facilities, depending on the details of
the world itself.

CLASSIFICATION OF STARPORTS
 Starports are classified by their location and by their capabilities.

Location
 A starport may be located on a world surface, or it may be in orbit
 above
the world. 
 Down. A starport may be located on a world surface. If so, the
 starport is
most frequently referred to by the world name followed by the word
Down. Thus, Sylea Down is the main world surface starport for the
world of Sylea. 
 Why a surface port? Landing close to the market is convenient for all
concerned. If the environment is at all tolerable, then life support
and labor costs are minimized.
 Highport. A starport may be located in orbit above a world. If so, it
 is
most frequently referred to by the world name followed by Highport.
Thus, Sylea Highport is the main orbital starport for Sylea. A
highport maintains scheduled links by shuttle with the world surface
(if there is no surface starport, then with an air transport hub).
 Why a highport? Many very large ships never land on a world surface;
 the
cargo they carry is off-loaded in orbit and shuttled down. Some worlds
are naturally inhospitable (bad surface weather, a water world, fluid
oceans, or perhaps government type D or E) and ship owners prefer not
to risk their equipment venturing down to the surface.
 Spaceports. There is typically one major starport in a star system.
 Other
facilities, especially those on smaller, less important worlds in a
system, are called spaceports. They are established primarily to
foster in-system travel.
 Good spaceports are often established in support of farming projects,
 mining
projects, or small colonies.

Starport Type
 Starport type is based on a simple letter classification system
 (ranging
from A to E) which details their basic facilities.
 A. Excellent quality facility with refined and unrefined fuel
 available on
site. Facilities include capability to perform annual overhaul and new
ship construction (QSDS certified designs). A naval base may be
present. A scout base is usually not present. A surface installation
is present. A highport may be present (generally if the world
atmosphere is 2+).
 B. Good quality starport with refined and unrefined fuel available on
 site.
Facilities include capability to perform annual overhaul and new
spacecraft construction (QSDS certified designs). A naval base may be
present. A scout base may be present. A surface installation is
present. A highport may be present (generally if the world atmosphere
is 2+).
 C. Routine quality starport with unrefined fuel available on site.
Facilities include some capability for repair (primarily replacement
of QSDS-certified parts). A naval base is usually not present. A scout
base may be present. A surface installation is present. A highport is
usually not present.
 D. Poor quality starport with unrefined fuel available on site or
 close by.
It has no repair or construction facilities. A naval base is not
present. A scout base may be present. A surface installation is
present. A highport is not present.
 E. Frontier starport. With no facilities, the installation is little
 more
than a flat expanse of bedrock and a sign. This designation
effectively means there is no starport.

Spaceports
 Worlds other than the mainworld in a system may also have spaceports.
 F. Routine quality spaceport with unrefined fuel available on site
 and minor
repair facilities. A system defense field may be present. A military
base may be present. A surface installation is present. There is no
highport. This designation is a poor cousin to starport type B. 
 G. Poor quality installation with unrefined fuel available nearby. No
 repair
facilities are available. A system defense field may be present. A
military base may be present. A surface installation is present. There
is no highport. This designation is a poor cousin to starport type C. 
 H. Primitive quality installation with no facilities beyond a beacon
identifying the location. Unrefined fuel may be available nearby. This
is a surface installation; there is no highport. A system defense
field may be present. A military base may be present. This designation
is a poor cousin to starport type D.
 Y. No spaceport. This designation is the equivalent to starport type
 E.

THE ELEMENTS OF THE STARPORT
 A starport at its simplest is a bare spot of bedrock capable of
 supporting a
ship which wants to land. The remaining elements of a starport are
added later to support and maintain the traffic that passes through
the port.

The Basic Elements
 Each starport is characterized by a few basic elements. Without them,
 the
starport is not really a starport.
 The Beacon. The location of the starport is broadcast throughout the
 system
from a central beacon. At its simplest, the beacon puts out a
continuous tone which allows ships to home on its position. In more
complex systems, the beacon provides range and position information
for ships in the system, traffic control information on sister
frequencies.
 The Landing Pad. Starships approach from beyond the atmosphere. When
starships set down, most make use of their lifters in order to make a
smooth, relatively slow approach along designated approach corridors.
To deal with ships  with disabled lifters, or for ships which use
lifting surfaces, the landing pad includes long, broad runways.
 For highports, this a designated holding area.
 Traffic Control Facility. Space traffic controllers provide basic
information to ships within the system, vectoring them safely in their
approaches or departures. The traffic control facilities are located
at the starport. In some systems, an auxiliary control facility is
located in an outer orbit. 

The Terminal
 The starport terminal houses the basic services for passengers and
 freight. The Concourse. Passenger services are handled at the
 concourse. Ticketing,
baggage check, and final boarding all take place at this facility.
 Freight Docks. Freight (materials carried by ships for a fee) is
 loaded and
unloaded at the freight docks. Speculative cargoes are held until sold
at the exchange.
 Customs and Immigration. Applicable laws concerning the people and
 goods
moving to the world are enforced by Customs and Immigration.
 The Exchange. Speculative cargo is bought and sold at the Exchange. A
variety of brokers handle the transactions and make the process 
 Accommodations. Passengers passing through the starport can stay
 overnight
at the starport hotel, buy meals at a variety of restaurants, purchase
basic goods and souvenirs at the shops, and pass time at theaters or
entertainment complexes. The level of accommodation available varies
widely.
 Data Terminals. Information is available about the world, its
 products and
services, and recreation at a variety of data terminals. On some
worlds, the data terminal may be a computer; on others, they may be
staff people with prodigious memories; on yet others, they may be
librarians).
 Message Center. Access to communications, including physical mail,
electronic mail, telephone, and video is generally available at the
message center.
 Emergency Medical. Suitable facilities are provided for emergency
 medical
treatment. The medical staff has the training and experience to deal
with a wide variety of medical emergencies.

Peripheral Facilities
 Situated around the edges of the starport are a variety of associated
activities and facilities.
 Starport Defense Establishment (SDE). In addition to security
 personnel (who
function as police), a starport may have an SDE (with a military
function). The SDE is established to defend the starport against
organized assault, and its equipment may include troops, fighter
craft, missile defenses, and artillery. The SDE, to maintain its
independence from the the local world, is often a mercenary force
specifically created for the job.
 Since an SDE is rarely larger than absolutely necessary, it is
 possible to
gauge the local perceived threats to a starport by observing the size
and equipment of the LDE.
 Scout Base. The scout service (whether of the Imperium or of some
 other
interstellar community) may maintain a port facility for the support
and maintenance of its vessels (including those vessels which it may
have out on loan to detached duty scouts). It is possible that the
world on which a scout base is located is not a member of the 
interstellar community which the scout service serves.
 Many scout bases make the information they have accumulated available
outside of their service (including maps, charts, and world surveys).
 Naval Base. The Navy (whether of the Imperium or of some other
 interstellar
community) may maintain a port facility for the support and
maintenance of its vessels. The base includes administration sections,
warehouse for provisions and resupply, and some security personnel.
 The continuing interest of naval personnel in their career area makes
 naval
bases favorite stopovers for veterans (even of other navies).
 Sometimes a specific naval base may be considerably more extensive
 than the
typical installation. Their facilities and equipment come to dominate
the starport rather than complement it.
 System Defense Field. The interplanetary defense forces of a system
 may
maintain a facility for the support of their vessels (system defense
boats) as they rotate off station from the outer reaches of the
systems. The field has a minimum of facilities (provisions are trucked
in when needed; repair trucks call as required). 
 Shipyard. Ships are built at shipyards. For ships of moderate size
 which
will be streamlined and capable of landing on worlds, construction
often takes place on world surfaces at starport shipyards.
 Most shipyards specialize in the construction of a specific assembly
 (which
local industry has shown itself capable of producing) such as jump
drives, avionics, detectors, or even stateroom modules. Other
components are purchased from other shipyards and imported as part of
the QSDS-certified parts system.
 Warehouses on-site store components until they are ready for
 assembly. Ships
themselves are constucted in open-air bays (or in enclosed assembly
structures if the local environment requires).
 Repair Facility. Minor repairs to ships are often accomplished on the
landing pad. More complex or extensive repairs require that the ships
be moved to the repair bays at the edge of the starport. Support
installations near the bays house the instrumentation and equipment
necessary for repairs.
 Transport Hub. The starport is usually integrated into the global
transportation net, and arriving passengers transfer from the terminal
to the transport hubs. Depending on the world, the hubs may support
sea or undersea transport, air transport, or ground rail transport. In
addition, personal vehicle rental may be available.
 Industry. Many industrial processes are best carried out in zero-G
 and/or
vacuum. What better place for such operations than adjacent to a major
orbital transportation center? Industrial modules attached to the
Highport create products or commodities which benefit from immediate
access to the ships calling at the port. Some factories have long-term
supply contracts with the highport itself.

Organization
 A starport has an organizational structure which includes a leader
 and a
mission; the details of each starport are different, although they are
generally variations on a basic theme.
 The Port Authority. Regardless of the local government in power at
 the
starport, the governing authority for the facility is the Port
Authority. Financed by a variety of charges and levies on passengers,
cargo, and ships, the Authority uses its money to build and maintain
its facilities, and to provide variety of services. Like starports,
Port Authorities vary widely in structure and approach to their
responsibilities. Some are strong corporate organizations devoted to
the pursuit of profit; others are non-profit organizations which view
their responsibilities more as services to the citizenry; yet others
consider themselves a quasi-official arm of local government.
 The Port Warden. The person in complete charge of the starport is the
 Port
Warden. Appointed by the Port Authority, the Warden is the chief
executive officer for the facility, and wields great, but not
unlimited power. 
 The Mission of the Starport. The starport, as an organization, is
 committed
to a mission (although that mission may not be clearly or publicly
stated). Typical missions are:
  To efficiently provide facilities and services necessary to
  accommodate
interplanetary and interstellar traffic for this world.
  To produce a maximum of income for the organization which operates
  this
starport.
  To insulate this world, to the maximum extent possible, from outside
influences.
  To meet the minimum requirements for maintaining interstellar trade.
 Regulation Enforcement. The police and security arm of the Port
 Authority
has the responsibility of protecting the orderly operation of the
starport and of enforcing its regulations. It consists of enforcers
and emergency techs.
 The typical enforcer carries out the role of helpful police officer,
 often
assisting passengers in mundane tasks. Behind the scenes, however, a
stronger, better armed force stands ready to back them up if
necessary.
 Emergency techs provide basic services such as paramedical response,
 rescue
operations, and fire fighting. Emergency tech stations are situated
throughout the starport, providing the ability to make a quick
response anywhere within the starport's boundaries.

Each Starport Is Unique
 Starports vary widely due to the circumstances and environment in
 which they
exist. When the differences in world size, atmosphere, and
hydrographics are coupled with population and technological levels,
government, and trade classifications, it becomes clear that each
starport is an individual facility.

UNOFFICIAL FACILITIES
 Not all facilities at a starport come under the jurisdiction of the
 Port
Authority. 
 The Scout Lounge. Those who conduct surveys of star systems and who
continually venture out into unexplored or under-explored space are a
special type of people. After long periods of time alone or with their
fellow crew, they naturally gravitate to others of their kind... to
share stories and experiences which may help them survive. The typical
starport has a Scout Lounge for this type of people.
 The Scout Lounge is usually operates as a semi-private club;
 theoretically
anyone can use its services, but in practice it is only patronized
comfortably by scouts (and those with an affinity for scouts).
 The Hiring Hall. Crew members looking for work gather at the hiring
 hall.
Ships calling at the starport look first to the hiring hall when they
need new or replacement crew. Because of ship schedules which must be
met, it is possible for a crew person to be hired and off world within
a few hours notice.
 The Lone Star. Many starports have a recreation facility which
 welcomes and
serves all comers. At its tables, people meet and enjoy light music or
video, conversation, and meals. To many the Lone Star is an
opportunity to meet others on a casual basis, to develop
acquaintances, and even grow them into friendships.
 The Traveller's Aid Society. Some individuals make travel their
 primary
vocation. If they are able, they join the Traveller's Aid Society,
which provides facilities to its members. The Traveller's Aid Society
is a joint operation of several large hotel chains, which provide the
facilities within or adjacent to their own hotels and restaurants.
 Members join by depositing a large sum of money as annuity, with the
proceeds paying for the benefits they receive.
 Startown. Although starports are often established near large cities,
 the
community which springs up at the gates to the starport has come to be
called (generically) Startown. This community is the home of many of
the starport employees and houses many stores, restaurants, and bars
that serve those who want to wander outside of the starport's
boundaries.

UNDERSTANDING STARPORTS
 The key to understanding a starport is a continuing awareness of its
purpose. Starports exist to foster traffic, and thus trade, between
the stars. Governments may attempt to control or suppress the
activities of starports, but when they do, they naturally suppress the
benefits of trade and commerce for their worlds. The natural state of
starports is to flourish; if the starport's world has resource which
can be profitably marketed to other worlds, the starport generate
economic benefit.
 Extra-Territoriality. In order to foster interstellar traffic,
 starports are
extra-territorial. Just as embassies are treated as if they are the
territory of their owning nations, starports are treated like they are
off-world space. Passengers and crew alike are allowed to leave their
starships and wander freely (subject to security and safety
restrictions) throughout a starport. Goods are not subject to customs
or taxes until they leave a starport. The laws of the world do not
apply to until a traveller leaves the starport.
 Law and Order. There must be some law and order within a starport,
 and the
means of achieving that order is the local Starport Regulations.
Established by the Port Authority, these regulations define in detail
what behaviors are permitted and prohibited. For most people, ordinary
behavior is sufficient to stay within the regulations. Strange
requirements are typically posted clearly.
 Ship Construction and Repair. Starships and spacecraft require an
 extensive
system of construction and repair sites, and the overhead of designing
and maintaining the many parts which go into ships can be
overwhelming. Consequently, many starports subscribe to the QSDS
(Quality Ship Design Scheme): a set of standard component
specifications which are manufactured on worlds with the appropriate
tech level and industrial capacity, but which can be assembled and
maintained at any starport of the appropriate type, regardless of
local tech level or industrial capacity. 
 Money. Ultimately, every starport must make money if it is to remain
 in
operation. Starports cannot give their services away, but most find a
way to hide those charges away from the consuming public. Restaurant
charges include a surcharge; starship lines pay a portion of their
ticket price and freight charges to the starport. Since all of this is
concealed from the typical passenger, the impression is that the
starport is a free facility.

STARPORT AMBIENCE
 The ambience of the starport is of prime importance. When travellers
 arrive
at a starport the atmosphere and the condition of the facilities
create an impression that will stay with them for a long time. This
impression (and the elaboration of this impression) develops over
time. 
 The appearance of a starport may range from modern or new to old and
decayed.
 The staff of a starport may be respectful and attentive, or rude and
obnoxious.
 Officials may be straightforward and honest, or they may be corrupt
 and
self-serving.	

MANY DIFFERENT STARPORTS
 Starports vary in the way their provide their services. Major
 influences on
them include the world trade classifications, the elements of the UWP,
and other less clear factors.
 Water World. With land at a premium, starships land in the water
 (perhaps
sheltered by natural or artificial islands) and are serviced by boats.
 Asteroid Belt. Ships dock in the microgravity of an asteroid.
 Storms. If a world has an exceptionally turbulent atmosphere, most
 traffic
may choose to call at the highport and shuttle down on craft
specifically engineered for local conditions.

THE STARPORT VISIT
 A ship entering a star system leaves jump space approximately 100
 stellar
diameters out (typically at interplanetary range). The approach to the
starport takes perhaps a day, during which the appropriate radio
contact and identification procedure completed.
 At the world, the ship completes a landing maneuver while in voice
 and data
contact with the local space traffic controller.
 Once at the surface, the ship settles into its assigned landing bay. 
 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1354
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, May 21 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1355



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Something Positive
Traveller Chat - Thursday
Re: S/F Role playing games
Re: ANCIENT Grandfather
[Long]Who we are, T4, adios
Re: TML Helps Out!  (was FS data - what to do?)
Re: Hard SF: definition and why it matters
RE: Casualties (mildly gross reponse)
Re: The last Straw--The Last Word
Re: TML Helps Out!  (was FS data - what to do?)
Re: TML Helps Out!  (was FS data - what to do?)
Re: The last Straw
Traveller navigator
RE: IG Request for Inputs
Scenario Hooks - Ine Givar
Re: Hard SF: definition and why it matters
THUDDD Comments - May

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 22:28:54 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Something Positive

In the interest of getting back on topic, here are my recommendations
for what IG can do to get back on track:

1) The data in FS hasn't been broken for just a year or so, it has been
broken since DGP generated it probably around ten years ago.  Those
assembling the data for FS did not know this, or it would have been
fixed.  IG now has a responsibility to the fans of Traveller to fix what
is broken, not just ignore it, and turn it into something positive.  I
have no doubt that most people would be satisfied with a new supplement
that corrects the problems with FS, if the result were compatible with
M0 and  if enough new material were included.  Surely somebody on staff
can gather together a half dozen good adventures out of the submissions
for publication to IG--there is your new material.  Wrap it all up with
a bow (figuratively speaking) and sell it for under 30 bucks.  It will
sell.

2) IG has a better, more realistic stellar and advanced planetary
generation system sitting on the shelf right now than has ever appeared
in any Traveller version yet.  Find a vehicle for it and get it out in
print.  I have sworn off pretty much all of T4, but even *I* would buy
this.

3) Update the IG Web site more frequently.  Include the Traveller News
Service posts that take place after 1119.  Pretending the Rebellion
didn't devolve into hell or that Virus didn't happen compromises the
official storyline to the point that it is meaningless.

4) Hire a full time creative staff, to include writers and artists. 
Anyone who can name the original lineup of the music group Chicago or
has a child in high school need not apply.  White men who graduated high
school in the 60s and 70s are killing T4 because they their lives
revolve around everything but the game (including competing products). 
If it helps, go to Japan and raid the first publishing house that
creates anime you find.  If you don't know what anime is, rent the movie
Akira.

5) How about that TNE follow up product that was promised?  Loren
Wiseman and Dave Nilsen have been contacted, and are willing to do such
a product.  Why isn't it being followed through on?  Do it.

6) Force everyone doing creative work for T4 to read the storyline
material created for classic Traveller, MegaTraveller, and select bits
from TNE.  Have everyone take an exam on it if necessary.  This saves
time (because you don't have to constantly reinvent the wheel), and cuts
down on criticism of T4 products (because they fit into the Traveller
Canon).

7) If the prices aren't going to be lowered, make each product in such a
way that when people look at it, they say "yeah, that's worth $24.95"
(or whatever).  You do this through quality, content, and quality (yeah,
I know I typed it twice).

8) Advertise, advertise, advertise.  Remember that 120 years ago there
was no soda pop industry.  Now you can't go anywhere without finding the
stuff.  People are convinced in fact that they *need* it.  Why? 
Advertise, advertise, advertise.

   All for now.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 04:55:16 +0200
From: P-O Bergstedt <po@berka.com>
Subject: Traveller Chat - Thursday

/join #traveller

Traveller Chat
Thursday, May 22, 1997
IG's server, imperiumgames.com, port 6665 or 6666
7pm Pacific time

Topic:  Medicine in Traveller

see you there
P-O

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 97 22:21:15 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: S/F Role playing games

On 05/20/97 at 06:07 PM,  Liam McCauley <NerfHerder@Enterprise.net>
said:

> >Right now, I'm pondering the application of FUDGE to combat. The
> >system I'm working on is a fusion of FUDGE, Traveller, and CORPS.

> A fusion of FUDGE, Traveller, and CORPS; a fusion..., a fusion... Hey,
> how about calling it FUZION?

Ho!  Ho!  Now *that's* funny!  Would that make this all a "bubblegum
crisis?"  ;-D

> I'd be interested in what you come up with, though.

Yeah, I am too.  I looked at CORPS in a nutshell over the weekend and it
looks interesting, but Fudge is so darn elegant! ;->

I've even made me some FUDGE dice.  Now that I make my own dice, I'm a
lot more easy going about strange dice.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 19:51:32 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: ANCIENT Grandfather

>Tue, 20 May 1997 10:58:44 +0100, anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)

>>Who's to say that  wasn't just smart enough to see
>>where these races were headed?

>Pretty cool to extrapolate psychohistory 50 000 years.

Well, it could be pointed out that it's not necessarily
50,000 years (the coyns having been revised along the
way).  However, Grandfather has an intellegence and
technology beyond anything we can imagine and is
stunningly old.  This is not out of line with what he
might be able to do or with what glimpses of his
accomplishments leads one to expect.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 23:30:51 -0400
From: Chatham Ewing <cbe2866@is4.nyu.edu>
Subject: [Long]Who we are, T4, adios

Hello all,
	
I am Chatham Ewing. I am 31, married, and live in a tiny apartment in
Greenwich Village. I teach English in New York City. My work is rewarding,
but very hard, and I look to my hobbies for playful alternatives to the
every day grind.

I've liked IG's T4. Particularly, I've liked the clarity and simplicity of
the systems presented in the book. I was able to grasp them immediately,
and I enjoyed looking through them and reading them. Though there were a
few typos here and there, the T4 basic rule book was the first Traveller
product in the entire life of the game to catch my eye in a game store (I'm
usually in there looking for chess stuff or war-games). I remember a thread
about new players coming to Traveller a while ago, and I thought I'd
mention that IG's product found one. I've really liked the original T4 rule
book that I bought that day, and I've found it to be a great deal of fun.
I've gotten my gaming group to play a few games, and we haven't had too
much trouble with rules systems. The rules get the job done, I fill in the
gaps, and the game goes on.

Anyhow, as a fan of the internet, I thought I'd check out a search engine
and see if there was Traveller material there. I quickly found the IG site,
and to my surprise, received prompt answers to my e-mail correspondance
with IG. They also seem pretty good with orders. I've recently ordered the
deluxe edition of the rules, mainly because I'm really curious to see what
the new ship-design rules will be like.

My search of the internet also turned up TML. As a long time role-playing
gamer and GM, but someone new to the Traveller game, I eagerly subscribed,
hoping to find focussed discussion of the game which would help me learn
about it. Initially, I found it. I have quietly lurked and watched for the
past few months (I've even posted twice), and I've very much enjoyed the
THUDD compettitions (even toyed with the idea of entering one...), the
backgrounds, and the other discussions of materials related to game play.

Lately, this list hasn't been as fun to read as it once was. I don't like
foul language meanly used, and I have no taste for gratuitous name calling.
I see and experience enough of that every day in every way in New York City.  

I wish you all well and respect the terrific creativity here, but I will
not be continuing on this list. For me and what I'd like to accomplish with
my hobby, the benefits of the list's creativity have been far outweighed by
the recent and ever more voluminous cycles of vituperative discourse. 
     
I thank the list for the opportunity it provided me to learn about
Traveller and its community of gamers. 

Sincerely,

Chatham Ewing
cbe2866@is4.nyu.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 00:38:36 -0400
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: TML Helps Out!  (was FS data - what to do?)

> If this is to be done properly, and someone is
>> chosen as team leader, part of his/her responsibility will be to resolve
>> disputes. How do we give him/her this authority?
>
>Why don't we decide who is going to work on the project first, then 
>have all of the participants vote on it.  I'd be completely happy 
>with that.

Good idea.  I support this.

>> Don't get me wrong... I would **really** like to see this done.
>
>Me too, and I'm willing to devote some of my scarce time to it.   
>But, I've got to admit, I'm not sure I want to put that much work 
>into something if IG is not going to use it.

I don't even care what IG does in this regard.  If we produce a better
product, then we use it and let anyone who wants to use it, that seems a
worthwhile endeavor. 

>> In addition, would it include maps? Proper **maps**?
>
>I don't see why not.  There is a lot of talent on this list.  We 
>could contact IG and ask them what format they want the maps in.

And of course, -WE- want maps, so of course there should be maps.

I am very interested in this project, and would be proud to help out!

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 20:50:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Hard SF: definition and why it matters

> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:30:58 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
> 
> > Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 12:52:10 -0700 (PDT)
> > From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
> 
> > So in your worldview no SF containing FTL travel can qualify as 'hard'?
> > Not criticizing!!  Just trying to pin down terminology.
> 
>    Yeah, pretty much.  My definition of "hard" SF is fiction that obeys
>    the laws of physics, or is at least thoroughly aware of the
>    consequences of breaking them.  No game played for recreation could
>    reasonably expect to meet this definition though, so you could argue
>    that this definition is not very useful.

Test case (as I find your views intriguing):  Is the
Niven/Pournelle/Alderson drive, used in the N/P future history, 'hard'
enough for your definition, despite being an FTL system?

>    I think, though, that the definition is important to keep in mind for
>    two reasons which crop up on this list from time to time:
> 
>    1)  People sometimes /learn/ physics by playing Traveller.  This is
>    true in my case; Trav introduced me to the field that has become my
>    profession way back in 8th grade.  In these cases, it's good to know
>    where the science ends and the fantasy begins.

Wow, that's cool!  I was already a science nut when I found Trav (in 10th
grade), but I did learn Newtonian physics at a gut, intuitive level
playing Book 2 starship combats, mostly with my brother Douglas.

I do agree that it's best to clearly point out what's current knowledge,
what's extrapolation, and what's broken for playability purposes.

>    2)  It puts design issues in perspective.  There is no reason to
>    account for every kilowatt of power used in a starship when there are
>    hundreds of gigawatts unaccounted for.  Realism is a forgone
>    conclusion in any starship design system which calls itself
>    Traveller, so the primary goals for any such system should be play
>    balance and ease of use.

Every time I think about this I edge closer to doing my Doc Smith writeup.
So far, astonishingly enough, it doesn't break canon at all seriously, and
it brings drive power levels back down to reasonable levels.  It does
introduce one odd effect involving sudden starts and stops by turning the
Bergenholm on and off, and I'm worried my momentum/energy balance check
will torpedo it.  Stay tuned...

> > LOX/H2 has an Isp of around 800 sec; apparently HEPlaR drives run around 4
> > *million* seconds.  This is clearly one of those circumstances where one
> > needs a heavy construction crane to suspend one's disbelief. :)
> 
>    Hmm. This number seems a little high to me.  According to my
>    textbook, the value is S = 3100 m/s, which converts to Isp = 310
>    seconds.  Am I missing something here? Or do I need to get a more
>    up-to-date textbook?  I'm not quibbling with your calculations (heck,
>    I got some of the power conversions in my last post wrong by a factor
>    of 2 --- not that that affected my point much!); I just want to make sure
>    I understand the concept correctly.

I take it you're quibbling with my LOX/H2 Isp; the HEPlaR one is derived
at:

  http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/house/thrusters.html

The 800 sec figure is for theoretically perfect, 100% efficient LOX/H2
burning; the figures for actual rockets appear to run in the range 300-400
sec.  So in this case, *I* am the physicist, and *you* are the engineer. :)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 23:55:33 -0400
From: Edgar Whipple <ewhipple@rma.edu>
Subject: RE: Casualties (mildly gross reponse)

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC6579.4FB76B00
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

pierre-louis constantin wrote:
[M]y idea is to get the characters
killed but use some battlefield first aid to "bring them back to
life", so the players learn their lesson but keep their characters...
=20
	So what exactly would all that battlefield first aid be?  You
can't always have a low berth close by or whatnot.  What would high
TL first aid be?   Portable berths for 1 limb?  Just wondering.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Perhaps it isn't especially Travellerish, but I like the way Lois =
McMaster Bujold handles "cryo-revival" in her Miles Vorkosigan novels. A =
person who is mortally wounded on the battlefield can sometimes be saved =
by the following procedure:

1) Some nice person or persons recognize your plight more or less the =
instant you (almost) die, and prep you immediately. This involves =
cutting open major arteries and flushing all of your blood out, =
replacing it with a special USP flavor of TEXACO(tm) -brand antifreeze. =
The irreducible minimum amount of you they need is your fairly intact =
brain and medulla, with enough skull to keep it all together. Having =
most of the rest of your nervous system, not to mention the rest of you, =
available and in one or at least only a few pieces greatly simplifies =
the rest of the process.

2) Your friends wrap you up in "medical foil" (I'm not sure what she has =
in mind with that), and shove you into a field cryo unit, basically a =
coffin-sized meat locker with built-in grav pallet and micro-fusion =
power plant.=20

3) They whisk you off to a *very* well-equipped hospital or private =
clinic, preferably before your freshness date expires in a small number =
of weeks. From the atheist point of view at least, _you_ have already =
expired, so the problem here is getting you to help before freezer burn =
gets bad enough to hamper the next step. . . .

4) The doctors clone from you the necessary organs/limbs/facial =
features/whatever you may be missing, and piece you back together. Our =
hero Miles Vorkosigan only needed new lungs, heart, and a few ribs. He =
had it easy.

5) You undergo a very long, excruciatingly painful, unbelievably =
*expensive* period of rehabilitation. (If you don't have a rich patron, =
one of those nice friends had better be adventuring his butt off getting =
the money together to pay the clinic.) Even if the process is =
successful, all sorts of temporary or permanent disabilities and =
interesting side effects may ensue. You were, after all, nearly =
indistinguishable from a TV dinner for some while.

The rule seems to be that if your friends get you prepped properly, and =
into a medical-grade freezer quickly enough, you'll *probably* live. =
(This is not easy to do in combat conditions, even assuming you can =
afford to keep the equipment on hand, and assuming your medic has been =
doing the preventive maintenance on it properly.) Whether you'll be able =
to walk, speak, or otherwise stay in play is a gamble.=20

Come to think of it, this does sound pretty travellerish.


- -Edgar


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 00:39:25 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: The last Straw--The Last Word

Paul Walker wrote:
> 
> Harold, I'm asking... no, I'm begging that you let this be your last word to
> the list on this.  Please go back to posting productive material and let
> this be over.  I understand your feelings and respect them, but this has
> gone beyond the arena of public posting and needs to be taken to private if
> it is to be continued.  Please, if anyone is juvenile enough to respond to
> you on the list, be adult enough to let them get the last word in publically
> and take it to private.  Thanks, I know you are intelligent and will
> understand this.

Paul,

   First let me say that I felt in necessary to include the list in my
response to your e-mail.  Forgive me if you preferred that your words
not be aired publically.

   It is indeed my last word on the subject to the list.  In both my
response posts, I made a point of suggesting that things be taken
"outside".

   I came to the defense of a fellow TMLer because I felt he was being
flamed unfairly.  In response, I was flamed.  I responded with more
flame.  As in most wars, the calls for peace were received on this end
after I had launch my last barrage.

   This list has seen more than its share of hard feelings.  I recall
the flame wars that took place when TNE was announced.  *Those* were
true flame wars.  Verbal napalm, fuel-air explosives and the occasional
nuke.  I did not participate in them directly, but they literally spread
off TML and over to other Traveller discussion areas.  As a regular on
the GEnie Traveller areas, I fought on the pro-GDW side.  Fortunately,
things did not get as vicious as they did on TML.

   On the other hand, when people took offense back then, it was for
good reasons.  People may have questioned each other sanity, but no one
resorted to calling each other Nazis (I find the latter much more
offensive).  The difference between the Old West and street gang warfare
of the '90s I suppose.

   This is not to say that I'm nostalgic for the "good old days".  Those
flame wars probably indirectly help contribute to GDW's demise.  I think
even the most diehard anti-TNE type now wishes he could go back and
temper his comments, if it would bring back GDW.

   There have been calls for peace and for unity.  While we should have
peace, there will never be total unity here.  There is a significant
(and growing) anti-IG, anti-T4 faction.  I say 'faction', though its
constituents parts (diehard cTers, MTers, TNEers, and true heretics)
have little in common beyond a hatred for what IG has done to the game,
and a love for Traveller--a love also shared by pro-T4 types.  

   Perhaps there is enough to unify us afterall. 

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 16:03:16 +1000
From: Jason Anderson <midnight@kagi.com>
Subject: Re: TML Helps Out!  (was FS data - what to do?)

>At 01:28 AM 5/20/97 +0000, you wrote:
>>
>>> 	Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't somebody produce _good_ data
>>>already
>>> (for M0, I think?) that got thrown out in favor of FS? Why redo work?
>>
>>Heck, if somebody has already redone all 18 sectors of FS, then speak
>>up.  We need to evaluate it.

If you are talking about what I think you are talking about, only the
information for the Core sector was redone. Originally it was done for M0,
with the CORE team told that they would have control over that sector, and
that FS would include their information. IG decided at the last minute to
go with the FS data, and left the (more correct, and by the sounds of it
more useful) data generated for M0 out of the book.

Joe, correct me if I'm wrong (and you're out there)??

Cheers,
Jason

PS: Count me in for helping generate new data for FS. I've already done 2
subsectors in the xxx sector (left of Core, below Vland, starts with a D).
Although I don't have any Traveller material other than T4, so what I've
done may not agree with published material for later time periods.

- -------
Beyond Midnight Software                               <midnight@kagi.com>
                                      <http://www.vision.net.au/~midnight>

             If it's not on fire then it's a software problem.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 02:23:47 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: TML Helps Out!  (was FS data - what to do?)

> > Who else is going to get behind this project?
> 
> 	Count me in. Granted, I've only been in since TNE, and don't have
> access to a lot of the materials, but I'll do what I can.

Wonderful, Ryan.  I'm keeping all of these posts in their own special 
folder.  I just posted a letter to Courtney Solomon about this 
project--we are now waiting to see if he will go for it.

Any more volunteers for the TML-FS Project?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 02:23:47 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: The last Straw

> >Now for the rest of you  fools its one thing to decided to leave an 
> >argument because you cant take the stupid  people and dont want to 
> >argue any more.  But its  coward  that  hits  somebody 
> >after they have left.
> 
>    I had assumed that one of his allies would get him the message.  As
> for being a fool, I am a fool for love, own a copy of Fool for the City,
> celebrate April Fool's Day, and have a lump of fool's gold, but I am no
> idiot, which is what you are asserting.

FFFFoolin', yeah, ffffooolin'

                             --Def Leppard



> > If you want to know I think that his actions made him more mature 
> > then any of us.  He has moved away from you worthless people.  
> 
>    No, it makes him a spoiled little child.  And how did you get access
> to my financial data?

LOL!

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:24:34 +0400
From: Andy Long <andyl@icluae.co.ae>
Subject: Traveller navigator

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC65D9.8FE3A260
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I found the URL for Traveller navigator on a recent post, and jumped
straight to it. I tried to download the programs, but unfortunately the
ftp site seems to be dead - the 'ftp:' URL and ftp programs themselves
both report an ICMP timeout on ftp.best.com, although www.best.com is
active

Any ideas on why the site is inaccessible, or anywhere else I can find
the navigator programs?


 

Andy
================================================================
smtp Email:	andyl@icluae.co.ae OR
		andylong@x400.icl.co.uk OR
		A.G.Long@abu0101.wins.icl.co.uk OR
		andylong@emirates.net.ae
x400 Email:	c=ae;a=emdan;p=icl;ou1=abu0101;s=Long;i=AG;
		o=International Computers Ltd;
A.G. Long, c/o ICL	Phone:	+971 (2) 335200/338066
PO Box 7237		Fax:	+971 (2) 338724
Abu Dhabi
United Arab Emirates
================================================================



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 20:35:43 +1200
From: Brody Dunn <bdunn@ihug.co.nz>
Subject: RE: IG Request for Inputs

Nice Post - and thanks for taking the time Mr Golden.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:58:36 +0400
From: Andy Long <andyl@icluae.co.ae>
Subject: Scenario Hooks - Ine Givar

Anyone planning on conducting a campaign from the POV of the Ine Givar
could do worse than go to watch 'Michael Collins'. I watched it recently
and was captivated. As a Brit, I was prepared to dislike it on
principle. I also thought I knew a bit about the birth of the Irish
Republic. I found out that I was wrong on both counts.

Check it out from your nearest video library.

Andy

================================================================
smtp Email:	andyl@icluae.co.ae OR
		andylong@x400.icl.co.uk OR
		A.G.Long@abu0101.wins.icl.co.uk OR
		andylong@emirates.net.ae
x400 Email:	c=ae;a=emdan;p=icl;ou1=abu0101;s=Long;i=AG;
		o=International Computers Ltd;
A.G. Long, c/o ICL	Phone:	+971 (2) 335200/338066
PO Box 7237		Fax:	+971 (2) 338724
Abu Dhabi
United Arab Emirates
================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:32:19 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Hard SF: definition and why it matters

>   Hmm. This number seems a little high to me.  According to my
>   textbook, the value is S = 3100 m/s, which converts to Isp = 310
>   seconds.  Am I missing something here? Or do I need to get a more
>   up-to-date textbook?  I'm not quibbling with your calculations (heck,
>   I got some of the power conversions in my last post wrong by a factor
>   of 2 --- not that that affected my point much!); I just want to make sure
>   I understand the concept correctly.
>
>   -Rob

My number (Isp) for the shuttle is 450 s but it may be wrong.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 03:35:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: THUDDD Comments - May

  Craig reminded me that the voting is this Sunday, so I have put together
some brief comments on the THUDDD designs to help folks make their
decisions.  This will not be as detailed as usual, as I am pressed for
time - I did want to make my opinions known, however, since several folks
have told me they enjoy my comments.

  Overall, the designs were well done, though as usual some were better
than others, in my opinion.  This is the first time I think my own design
is as good or better than the rest - I'll explain why in the commentary
below.

  Most folks opted for a 2000T or higher hull and J3, the appropriate
response for an exploratory ship, I think.  The Recollet is the only
smaller ship at 500T - nice, but not that different than a far trader in
game terms.  The Naphaitelle is the only J2 design (I think; I did this
rather fast), an interesting decision that made for some economies but
is a handicap in the primary mission.

  Everybody put in engineering and vehicle shops, a sick bay, and low
berths for the sick, so no comments on that below.  One mistake that
several folks made was putting their small craft in minimal hangers.  The
rules say that means no room for repairs and overhauls - I marked off for
that.

  The big lack on all these ships is defensive armament, given their size,
and given that they are tasked to defend themselves against ships of equal
tonnage.  My design, the Type 1108, has 20 sandcasters and 10 nuclear
dampers, which i thought might be a bit small for a 3000T ship.  No other
design comes close, other than the 3000T Knarr, with 24 Sandcaster but
only 1 damper.  I would strongly urge folks to look realistically at
defensive capability of these designs - I think they are all underequiped
with defensive systems (aside from my Type 1108, of course). 

  All in all, not bad, though some designs are rather too expensive in my
view.  Here are specific comments.  As an aid to economic analysis, I have
given a cost in MCr per ton based on the listed cost and cargo space.
This is deceptive on some designs, since cost of small craft is not
included, but since that is a small percentage, these figures work for
gross comparisons.


Recollet (2.2 MCr-Ton)

  A dull Familie Spofullam design - a real surprise.  Competant, but
uninspiring, and underdefended.  Cheap, but no sale.

Encounter (4 MCr/Ton)

  Has the minimal hanger flaw for small craft maintenance, and a very high
per ton cargo cost.  Lots of missiles, but weak defense.

Terrapin (1.1 MCr/Ton)

  Only 1 G manuever, a tiny meson screen, though a fair number of
sandcasters and lasers.  Has only the single shuttle - no redundancy on
long voyages.  An okay design, but not spectacular - cheap on a per ton
basis.

Type 1108 (1.1 MCr/ton)

  Lots of defensive equipment, with a few lasers and missiles to keep the
enemy busy.  Redundant shuttles, extra space during jump for the crew from
the collapsable tank.  Above all, additional security on the ground for
the crew from the robot security and Companion-type contact robots.  It
may be my design, but I have been critical of my designs in comparison to
others in the past - this compares very well, I think, especially in terms
of protection of crew and cargo.

Anderson (7.3 MCr/Ton)

  By far the most expensive design per ton of cargo, and you do not get
all that much.  You do get a big honking laser, though - just the thing to
convince the natives of you peaceful intentions.  The defensive systems
are not that great, though the thick 30 Armor helps.  I'm not sold on the
idea of a carried jump courier - why not just send that ship along
separately and free up cargo space?  One of the designs I like least.
Finally, the hanger are fuel tanks are not strictly legal, though
reasonable - heaven help you if you have a leak, though.


Elisabeth (2.7 MCr/Ton)

  Again, big honking lasers, with only a few defensive systems.  One hell
of a meson screen at 7.  Expensive on a per cargo ton basis, though not
bad - the redundant ships boats are good.

Knarr (1.5 MCr/ton)

  The closest in spirit to my Type 1108 design, though more expensive.
I'm not sure why the 24 sandcasters and only one damper - TL11- ships tend
to use missiles more than lasers.  Remember, dampers have to be targeted;
each damper can only screen one missile at a time, so you need lots of
dampers to deal with lots of missiles.  Ships boat not included, so no
points for redundancy.

Naphaitelle (0.9 MCr/Ton)

  The cheapest design per ton, and it shows.  Only Jump 2 and manuever 1,
with minimal defensive armament.  The two 50 T spacious hangers are nice,
though I think the carried scout ship is a bad idea - the redundancy of
two shuttles is better for long trips.  Not bad, but better as a trader
inside the Imperium than an exploratory trader.

Monte Cristo (2.4 MCr/Ton)

  Fairly expensive per tone of cargo, and you get no pasenger space, no
meson screen, tight crew quarters, and only 2 nuclear dampers.  The six
sandcasters are better than nothing, and the two spacious 50T bays make
for redundancy.  I also liked the escape pod.  Not bad, but a bit on the
expensive side.

Ming (1.5 MCr/Ton)

  A surprising low per cargo ton cost, despite the extra space taken up by
modularizing all the cargo space.  Good redundancy on the landers, and the
image of dumping all the pods and running in an emergency sounds like a
great TV image.  The lack of any dampers make it vunerable to missiles, i
think, thopugh there are a fair number of sandcasters.  One problem with
putting the laders on grapples is that it makes repairs on long missions
far more difficult - a real problem in my book

Christobal Colon (7 MCr to 2 MCr/Ton)

  This is not a strictly legal QSDS design - the grapple table only goes
up to 90T carried craft.  These could be SSDS components, however, and so
legal (though SSDS is not mentioned by the designer).  The reason for the
range in cost per ton is due to most of the cargo being in the grappled
modules; 7 is for the ship without attached cargo, and the 2 is with three
purely cargo modules.  Lots of laser and missile weaponry, but only 2
dampers and 6 sandcasters.  This ship also has maintenance problems, since
the carried craft are in minimal hangers or on grapples.

  Again, I fail to see the need for carried jump-capable craft - just send
some smaller ships along withthe larger ship, and then the larger one does
not have to lug about extra-large jump drives when the small ship is away.


  Overall, I like my Type 1108 the best, followed by the Terrapin (though
I'd replace the 90T shuttle with 2 45T ones for redundancy).  The Ming is
the most intersting design, though I fail to see a good rational for all
those modules.

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1355
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, May 21 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1356



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Why can't we all just ... get along?
Re: Ancient Grandfather
Re: chill out you goobers :-)
Re: Casualties
Re: Open letter
Re: ANCIENT Grandfather
Re: Need Help Please
Right then, let's get down to work...
Re: Geonee and Massilia question
Test Have seens any new messages
Re: S/F Role playing games
Geonee, Suerrat, and First Numbered Fleets
Public Apology to Kenneth
Re: The last Straw
Re: In my opinion ....
Re: Ancients & Jump Drive
Toronto TML Thing #2
Re: First Survey 'Errata' and IG Pricing Policy
Re: Ancients/Grandfather

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:47:57 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Why can't we all just ... get along?

It's a pity, a true and utter pity to what level we have lowered 
ourselves in the past 2 weeks.
After reading the posts complaining about the deterioration of 
manners and behaviour on the list, i must say that i agree.
I am sure everybody has a right to voice his opinions, and also 
have good discussion about it's validity but if someone has a problem 
with another list member, he shouldn't post it to the list, he should 
post it to that person... Not that i am a Saint in that respect...I 
participated as well in this whole mess, but now that we are loosing 
list-members, i feel the boundaries have been crossed. On the other 
hand, some people are taking things too seriously: To them I say: 
Lighten up folks!
We all share the same background: We Love Traveller! 
That point should unite us, not drive us apart.
We should get back to business as usual. We know that IG messed up 
with FS, just about everyone voiced his opinions, now go tell IG 
about it, not us. We all know IG didn't buy KBv2.0 (nothing 
personal Ken, I like it, but still rather use the MT-TS) and the new 
Task System is broken as well. So go tell IG, not us, because  we 
already know. This reminds me of the rockdropping-thread we had a 
while back, and to be honest, i wish it came back! At least it had 
some relevance to Traveller: The Game, not Traveller: The Rules.

I propose just that people start lightening up. Don't call people 
names, that's not an adult way to behave. Don't get angry if you are 
called names, an e-mail is often written in anger and very quickly 
sent, and so what if someone calls you names: Just speaks volumes 
about themselves, doesn't it? 
We should get back to discussion Traveller. Critiques of IG's work 
are welcome, how else are we to decide what to buy, but should not 
get out of hand. Post only if you have something new to the 
discussion, not just to repeat what went before.

If we all just try our best, i am sure the TML is a great place to be! 




Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:20:54 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Ancient Grandfather

>> True.  I really dislike people who have admitted that they don't even play
>> the game *telling* me how things are "supposed" to be.
>>
>
>I challenge you to find in my post where I told him he was wrong, or the
>way Ethan was doing it was not the "right way".  I think you should read
>the whole post before agreeing with only a section of the post out of
>context.
>
>As far as I know David Golden (?) does not play at the moment, so what's
>with the crack?  I don't play the game, so I am not entitled to an
>opinion?

Offhand I'd say 70-80 % of people on the list neither play nor referee
Traveller at the moment but their points might be valid nevertheless. The
important thing is wether the poster knows what the discussion is about
before posting.
Please note that I neither of you suffer from this fallacy and that I'm
only commenting in general (has the Virus invaded the TML and made all
people stingy and fightpicky if that is a word?)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:52:39 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: chill out you goobers :-)

Thanks for an extremely well written, thoughtful and flame retardent post.

>are spending our free time. Traveller came along at a great moment,
>and it's pulled a lot of Science Fiction enthusiasts together, but
>the RPG market is much bigger now, and there are a lot of other
>games out there.

I don't get it. Why do we have to give up Traveller because IG produces
crap? The T4 product hasn't affected my Traveller universe one bit but some
stuff on TML shure has. IMHO TML produces more usable stuff for me than DGP
did at their height (not as many cool illustrations though). Maybe I am
slightly braindamaged from being a referee with an ongoing campaign for
most of the last decade but I like rolling it on my own. If T4 stuff sucks
and you don't want to make it up yourselves, buy GURPS stuff. Pretty good
illustrations, so-so combat system and a very good design system. Or use
the CORPS system which seems quite nice. Or convert Traveller into the
elegant FUDGE system. Traveller is maps, UWPs and BACKGROUND, BACKGROUND,
BACKGROUND. Use whatever you like and share your thoughts with the list.

Sorry for being a bit evangelical and preachy but just I've had too much coffee.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 07:08:53 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Casualties

On Tue, 20 May 1997, pierre-louis constantin wrote:

> Hi there!

Snip  

> 	So what exactly would all that battlefield first aid be?  You
> can't always have a low berth close by or whatnot.  What would high
> TL first aid be?   Portable berths for 1 limb?  Just wondering.

You know...I'll bet that battlefield first aid will be a lot like it is
today...throw on a bunch of antibiotics, stuff enough bandages on to stop
the bleeding, shoot 'em full of morphine and pass 'em along..._fast_...
The real miracles take place in the field hospitals, where they patch them
up enough so they'll stay alive (vs. not dying right away, which is what
first aid does), and do so long enough to get shipped to a real hospital
for rehab/reconstruction, etc.

IIRC this is basically what the US did in Vietnam, and there were claims
that if they lived long enough to get to the MASH, 90% of them lived.

Now, of course, if a TL12 battlefield follows the trends of current
warfare, particularly if energy or gauss weapons are used a lot, first aid
might be turned into 'Hey..are you alive?'  Combat could be far deadlier,
with few injuries, and lots of people scratched or dead, with little in
between. 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 16:15:53 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Open letter

Suzette wrote:
>The tone of the list has gotten to such that I can't abide reading it 
>anymore. The posts have devolved into infantile attacks... Its not 
>worth the depression, its not worth the headaches, its not worth 
>crying over personal, insensitive, obnoxious attacks on friends.

If reading the TML has become a burden rather than a delight then you 
should definitely stop. Traveller is a hobby. It is supposed to be fun.
When it ceases to be fun it's time to move on.
 
>Twolf and I are *not* the only ones in my close circle of friends and 
>husband on the list who has or will unsubscribe. Maybe we'll try 
>again in a few months, maybe not.

Having said that, I can't help wondering if you're not overreacting. I
suppose I can't judge just how much bad feeling the TML has caused you.
But considering the speed of turnover in subjects here on the list, I
will ask you to consider just refraining from reading it for a week or
two. It would be a sad loss to the list if you and Stuart left.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
  "Free speech gives a man the right to talk about the
'psycology' of an amoeba, but I don't have to listen".
                  Elihu Nivens in 'The Puppet Masters'

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 10:38:10 +0000
From: Ken Roberts <deaconblue@eurekanet.com>
Subject: Re: ANCIENT Grandfather

I haven't been active in Traveller for some time. In fact, the last 
Traveller book I bought was "The Traveller Adventure" in 1986.
 I guess my question is, when did this Grandfather myth start, and why 
is he so important to Traveller as a whole?
 I really dislike s/f story lines that belittles humanities ability to 
discover technology that seems too complex to had come up with 
ourselves.
 I understand that some people need gods to explain things away, but 
does Traveller really need this subplot?
 The last game I was involved in was in 1989 on the USS South Carolina. 
The plot had agents of the Grandfather (the other players) trying to 
overthrow the Imperium, and I was an Imperial Marshall sent to stop 
them. This is the first time I had heared of the Grandfather, and I 
didn't like it then.
 Please, no long winded bandwidth killers, just a short explination will 
be fine.

- --Ken Roberts

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 09:34:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brett Fishburne <bfish@atlantech.net>
Subject: Re: Need Help Please

This scenario was played out well by Larry Niven in _Footfall_.

Brett Fishburne

At 01:13 PM 5/20/97 -0600, Erwin Fritz wrote:
>Bruce Johnson wrote:
>> 
>> On Tue, 20 May 1997, Lewis Roberts wrote:
>> 
>> > Someone else suggestd, that we don't see Mercenaries taking over small
>> > African Countries.  Well last year a group of French Mercenaries staged
>> > a coup in Comoros, and island group north of Madagascar.  They easily
>> > took over the island, and a few days later the French Army easily
>> > arrested the mercenaries.  You can use this in Traveller also.  If the
>> > players succeed, send in the Marines.
>> 
>> Well, that was a special case, since the French mercenary involved (who
>> was the model for the leader in _The Dogs of War_, by Frederick Forsyth,
>> and was mentioned in _Roland the Thompson Gunner_ by Warren Zevon) had
>> been the Police Chief for the islands for some time (5 or 10 years IIRC),
>
>It may have been a special case but it applies nonetheless. Having
>the former government appeal for Imperial aid strikes me as a logical
>option of that government.
>
>Here's another idea: the player characters attempt to take over
>control of a world. The local government finds out that extraterrest-
>rials are trying this stunt. They figure that there's no way that
>these "aliens" can be beaten. They also figure (incorrectly) that
>there are plenty more of these "aliens" on the way.
>
>The solution: use nuclear or biological weaponry in a doomsday solution.
>A whole continent (hopefully the one containing the player characters)
>could get wiped out.
>
>If we, on 20th century Earth, were fighting a losing war with aliens,
>that war would escalate until the nuclear option was the only one left.
>Better to die fighting than submit whimpering, no?
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 21:55:39 +0800
From: Michael Bailey <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: Right then, let's get down to work...

Hi again,

I've received a good response to my suggestion, so I'm going to (as the
Yanks say), take the ball and run with it.  It may take a while, but what
the hell, my social life needs toning down anyway.

I propose to do the following:

a) Send mail to Imperium Games, firstly requesting their permission to
disseminate corrected data, and secondly offering it for their use (I'm not
sure where I stand ref the Berne Convention on copyright, so I'm not taking
chances)

b) Spend two weeks (or more) hashing about with anyone who is interested on:

	I  -	What needs to be fixed
	II -	How we go about fixing it

c) Farm out sectors to whomever is interested.  I'll take on eon myself, in
addition to my ongoing 'Solomani Rim - M:0' project (it's on the way, for
those who are interested, I'm cannibalising parts of my old TNE campaign -
'The Near Bootes Commonwealth).

d) Publish draft data on my website for perusal and comment.

Any comments and suggestions are welcomed.  Send mail to
mickb@opera.iinet.net.au

Those who wish to take part, let me know and I'll put you on my recipient
list.  (Kenneth, Scot, Carlos and Ryan - I've already taken the liberty of
putting your names on).

Remember though, this is only _suggested_ corrected data, and I make no
claims as to it's veracity, or conformity with that elusive concept,
'canon'.  Feel fre to use it as you wish.

Thanks for your time,


Michael Bailey

PS - does anyone have an appropriate email address at IG?


Michael Bailey (mickb@opera.iinet.net.au)

"You drive, I think there's something wrong with me."
		Hunter S. Thompson, 'Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas'

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:35:49 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: Geonee and Massilia question

>From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>

>I hope that Carlos Alos-Ferrer could answer me
>We (TNE-RCES mailing list) are gathering all the Massilia data to build a
>complete file (reference). The already known existing subsectors are A (Hub
>worlds) and the Geonee (J and K) background.

        Yikes! Then, I have to subscribe to the TNE-RCES mailing list.
Sorry, I do not have the address at hand.. can somebody tell me how to subscribe?
>Does anyone knows any other existing collapsed subsector on the Net or
>other official (or semi official) books

        I looked extensively before creating sectors J and K, and found nothing.

>Specific question to Carlos
>Do you have collpased all the Massilia Sector or just 2 subsectors?

        Neither the whole sector nor only two subsectors. I've collapsed the
two main Geonee subsectors, some nearby worlds, and two clusters of worlds
around two important Geonee worlds that are far away from Shiwonee: Forquee
and Parahee. I do not have them here (I am at work), but I will post all I
have to the TNE-RCES list as soon as I can subscribe. I also collapsed the
worlds of the Rebin Empire and immediate surroundings, to create yet another
pocket empire... but that's not very much developed.

        Anyway, you may not like my collapsing method: it consists in
looking carefully and personally into each world, and creating some history.
No rules, no algorithms, just a bit of logic. And I do not use the TNE
"Wilds" codes, just standard UWPs.

>Thanks a lot for replying.

        You are very much welcome. Help me into the TNE-RCES list so that we
can continue to discuss about Massilia in the New Era.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:42:01 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Test Have seens any new messages

I have not seen any new messages to this list.


- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 18:05:23 +0100
From: Liam McCauley <NerfHerder@Enterprise.net>
Subject: Re: S/F Role playing games

At 22:21 20/05/97 -0500, Eris wrote:
>On 05/20/97 at 06:07 PM,  Liam McCauley <NerfHerder@Enterprise.net>
>said:
>
>> >Right now, I'm pondering the application of FUDGE to combat. The
>> >system I'm working on is a fusion of FUDGE, Traveller, and CORPS.
>
>> A fusion of FUDGE, Traveller, and CORPS; a fusion..., a fusion... Hey,
>> how about calling it FUZION?
>
>Ho!  Ho!  Now *that's* funny!  Would that make this all a "bubblegum
>crisis?"  ;-D
>

Oh dear, we're moving from flame wars to pun wars.  Still, if it raises the
happiness quotient of the list, then I'm happy to "Champion" the cause
[ouch, this is starting to hurt ;-)].

Cheers,
Liam
- -- 
NerfHerder@Enterprise.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 20:14:14 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Geonee, Suerrat, and First Numbered Fleets

        Uh... forgive me, but no flame war here. Just building more
Traveller background in a brief pause of the overwhelming amount of work
I've got these days...

        I've recently noticed an interesting bit. Way back in time, GDW
released the Rebellion Sourcebook, by Marc W. Miller. There, we can found a
map with all the numbered subsector fleets of the 3I. The first 4 fleets are
around Sylea, which fits. But the 5,6, and 7, are placed in very interesting
places. One is in Shiwonee/Massilia, where the Geonee homeworld is. Antoher
is in Ilelish, exactly where the Suerrat are. And the third (number 5, IIRC)
is in subsector A/Dagudashaag (I've no idea about what special could be there).

        This can NOT be just chance. It has been made on purpose. These
subsectors are really far away from Sylea, and, in between, there are fleets
numbered on the hundreds..

        The point is, how did numbered fleets appear? Probably, IMHO, the
biggest fleets got the first numbers. Those forces which were first
organized and well-established were numbered first. Imagine: After the
Pacification Campaigns, the Geonee and the Suerrat were subjugated. Huge
numbers of ships were around the corresponding homeworlds. So, naturally,
they were organized into fleets and got very low numbers.

        This creates an interesting observation... how long has been Marc
planning special roles for the Geonee and the Suerrat?

        And, a question: What is in A/Dagudashaag?

        This is really food for thought. Careful examination of the Fleet
Map could offer some insight into the yet untold history of the Imperium.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:58:51 +0000
From: twolf@unix.tfs.net
Subject: Public Apology to Kenneth

Kenneth,

I am guilt of a very maligned act for which I am indeed sorry.  I had 
no right, nor excuse to call you nor compare you to a nazi.  I don't 
expect you to excuse this act but I wanted you to know that I 
realize that it was very inappropriate and totally uncalled for.

Since the attack was public it is only right that the apology be like 
wise.  I am sending this to the list and to you personally to make 
sure that you receive it.  I have been told that several others have 
lefted the list and I didn't know if you were one of them or not.

J.D. Burdick
Twolf

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 14:29:38 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: The last Straw

Tim Reynolds writes:

>> Well the rest of us would love to hear what they were.
>> They have to go much deeper than what he put in the 
>> originial "The last Straw" post.
>
>Harold,  they go back deeper then that and since it is 
>personal I cant tell you.

   Fair enough.

>If you want to write to him to show your anger or 
>disapointment you could have done it in private.  

   A public attack requires a public response.  As I have posted
recently, if I am guilty of anything, its the crime of expressing myself
before the offended party had a chance to properly respond.  For that I
apologize to the offended party, to the TML as a whole, but not to Twolf
or to you.

>Instead it seems that you had something to prove by 
>makeing that attack and it had nothing to do with 
>traveller.  Just your Ego.

   Wrong.  I was defending a fellow member of the list, just as, believe
it or not, I would defend you if someone else had attack you in a
similar manner.

> See that is what I am so angary at its the personal 
> attack that you just seem not to want to quit.  If 
> you did you and the others would have posted to me 
> in person.  Instead your garabage is still going to 
> the mailing list.

   Again, a public insult demands a public response.  Otherwise, why
would you feel it necessary to post your reply to the list and not just
send it to me in person?  As for stopping personal attacks, I merely
turned your insult back on you.

>>> Just calling them as I know them
>>
>>   I can recommend a remedial course if you're interested.
>
> Well I see you just dont understand

   How can you make this statement after hurling insults at me?  You
were so obvisiously mocking me that even a blind man could see it.

>> I apologize  to the rest of the members of the TML 
>> for my actions, but I cant let this go.  I will no 
>> longer post on this subject.  If some of you want 
>> a fight my email is attached and I ll reply to those
>> email  sent to that address.
>
>   To make sure you'll get this, I've taken the step of cc:ing your
> e-mail address.
>
> Yea and to the TML I guess you just cant keep out of 
> the public eye do you feel more like a man now.

   Again with the insults.  I'm curious, when someone flips you the
golden eagle on the expressway because they think you cut them off, do
you follow them home so that you can tell them how hurt and upset you
are about their actions in private?  I didn't think so.

   Look, Ken, you, Twolf, Suz, me, and for that matter everyone else on
this list can engage in a massive urination contest until finally
there's nothing but posts here filled with bile and hate.  I'm sure
everyone will have a marvelous time letting each other have it. 
Meanwhile the people on HIWG-list and the TNE-RCES list will continue to
do productive work.  I'm perfectly willing to call the whole thing a
draw at this point, shake hands, and get back to Traveller related
issues.  If you find this agreeable, let the thread die.  If you feel
the need to once again respond, do it to me directly.  Ok?

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 14:48:50 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: In my opinion ....

Joseph "Chepe" Lockett:

>GONG!  Thank you for playing.  The Constitution describes relations
>between the government and its citizens, not between citizens themselves.

   Well sort of...judges have stretched the Consititution a number of
times to cover things not expressly mentioned.  Also, there is a large
body of US Federal legislation which deals with the issue of free
speech, for example, there is a law which says that labor unions have a
right to organize and recruit new members on the private property of
businesses, even if the business objects.  These laws have been upheld
as constitutional.
 
>The government may not ban speech -- but the TML, for example, certainly
>can, *within* *its* *private* *area* *of* *ownership*.  It would be
>perfectly legal within the U.S. for MPGN to remove list members from TML
>for rude or vulgar speech. 

   Just what we need, AOL II.
 
>> Oh, and if I offended anyone, tough sh!t. Deal with it.
>
>And for infantile behavior of this sort, perhaps MPGN should....

   And on that day I will break the world record for unsubscribing to a
mailing list....

   Ob. Trav:  The issue of free speech would be an interesting one in
the Third Imperium.  Would there be laws that prohibit advocating a
republican form of government?  or for that matter, advocating the
deification of the Emperor?

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:06:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Ancients & Jump Drive

In mail you write:

> The Solmani - hm, discovered Ancient Artifacts in the asteroid belt
>  and on some Jovian moons, discovers jump drive in the same place...
>  Hmmmm... coincidence?

Gee, I thought it was Luna and Saturn's moons (TMA-1 & Iapetus to be
specific). :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 15:02:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Toronto TML Thing #2

Attentition Toronto Residents!

Want to flame other Traveller-lovers face to face?
Care to punch someone in the jaw because they like .5D?

Uh, uh-oh, wait a second...

Maybe this should be a more friendly event. ;)

Care to discuss the finer points of Hiver manipulation over a corn dog?
Like to compare SolSec service decorations?
Want to declare your love for Duke Norris? (beings of any sex can apply)

Let's get together.

Rob Prior has suggested the Sci-Fi Cafe, which I believe is located
the the northish section of town - Steeles I think. Double-check with
the yellow pages. I think that sometime mid next month would be good.
Friday the 13th? The 14th? Suggestions?

If you're interested in coming and have not yet dropped me a line, 
please do so. The 14th might be good, as people could come from out of town,
but it is kinda close to Father's day (could be Grandfather's day??).
If you're coming from out of town but would like to suggest another date,
please do so. I'd like to gets many TML people together as possible,
so even if you live in BC, I hear Greyhound flights are pretty cheap. :)

Anyways, please come & please let me know if you're coming.
(People who have already replied need not reply again).

Ethan

- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 10:45:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: First Survey 'Errata' and IG Pricing Policy

In mail you write:

>>In mail you write:
>>
>>> When I am done, I will post it, but I expect that is will be only minor
>>> modifications on the usual, such as
>>> TL      Min POP Max POP
>>> 1       ~ 10^6          ~ 10^7
>
>>> Note: min pop is that population which is within easy travel and
>>> communication.  For a TL9+ culture, it is the worlds within one or two
>>> jumps.  Max pop is for an earthlike planet.
>>
>>Min pop should be the minimum *viable* population. Which at low tech
>>levels can be as small as a few hundred.
>
> IIRC, they have some fairly sophistocated technology even at TL 1, which I
> suspect would require more than a few hundred people.  Since I do not have
> my books handy to check that, I am willing to recant if presented with
> proper canon :)
>
> More seriously, I read a study on weaponry that indicated that general
> gunmaking required a population of at least in the hundreds of thousands
> top provide the aniclliary technology of metal refining, extracting
> resources over the wide area usually associated with hot springs and cave
> walls, and so on.  It was assuming the "perfect" distribution of 1700-1800
> technology as well.

On the other hand, it is quite possible for a smaller population to
"work harder" given the required resources in their area. Especially
given that TL1 is *pre*-gunpowder.

Remember, a "TL1" culture merely has to be able to do things a TL0
can't. They don't have to be able to do *all* the things listed for TL1!

And there's also the big difference between "evolved tech" and
"colonial tech". You may need hundreds of thousands to comeup with TL1,
but that doesn't mean that a colony can't be setup (in a deliberately
chosen area) to be self-sustaining with a much smaller population base.

All you need are good farmlands, a source of energy (stream suitable
for waterwheel, or winds steady enough for windmill) and some nearby
ore deposits. They don't even have to be all that *big* as "normal"
needs (non-wartime) can be met with *very* little metal.

Metal and ore did get traded over wide areas, but villages with a
deposit "good enough" for local use did exist. So all you really need
is a few hundred (most for the fields) and a smith or two.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 14:47:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: Ancients/Grandfather

Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net> wrote:
>> On a completely irrelevant note, this is what really burns me.
>> This is a mailing list. You can ignore what you don't like.
>> Don't tell me, or anyone, to shut up and don't tell me I'm getting
>> Traveller confused with 2010.
>
>I did not tell you to shut up.  You asserted that all jump drives are the
>indirect creation of Grandfather.  You spoke as if you had evidence for
>this fact, I asked to see the evidence from the Alien modules.  Thats all.  

*deep breath*

You're right. Sorry about getting all snappy like that. You didn't tell 
me to shut up, of course (I said it was irrelevent, didn't I?).
I was still a bit riled up about all those other flamewars going on.
Apologies. (Must... defuse...TML... before... it... expl*BOOM*)

Anyways, thanks to Douglas for finding the Solomani&Aslan reference for
me. I think that in later years some GDW & DGP people kinda got the idea
in their heads that a lot more races had copied jump drive than originally
thought, so they dropped a lot of little hints all over the place.
Reality, both in reality and in Traveller, is a pretty fluid thing - 
I'd say that you could run a campaign alternating between both theories
and the players probably wouldn't think much of it...  it might make a good 
adventure hook or at least a good red herring.

In another post...

> >Yes he could have helped the major races but why would he want to.
> >Since we know that the Ancient artifact the Zhodhani have that prompted
> >them to do the Core Expiditions gives accurate representations of the
> >future is it really so hard to imagine that Yaskodray knew they were
> >going to be important later & stuck pictures of them on the coyns to
> >help socialize the Droyne about who they were going to have to deal
> >with.
>
> Hmmm, what artifact?

The Zhos found this big thing that shows a super-accurate map
of a corridor going from Zhodani space most of the way to the core.
The cool thing is, it isn't just a map - it actually shows what's
happening in that section of space, not just in real time, but also
in flashes from the past and _from the future_! it's also psionically
active, causing a strage feeling of hilarity (like, supper giddiness)
in some small percentage of viewers. Very wierd. It would make a good
milieu book though, which I think was on MM's list of possible milieu books.
(That is, the Zho Core Expeditions)


Ethan

- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1356
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 22 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1357



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Alternative Character Generation
So long (and thanks for all the fish!)
Campaign write up (LONGISH)
What I like about Traveller.
Re: Ancients/Grandfather
Classic Traveller Question
Ancients Unassisted Suicide Technology
RE: Need Help Please
World Write Up: Coaise
Anybody out there?
No new messages?
Re: Public Apology to Kenneth
Where is everyone?
Re: Casualties
Re: Public Apology to Kenneth
Re: Casualties
Re: Is there a comprehensive list of subsectors?
Re: Relativistic manuever drives

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 16:32:00 -0400
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Alternative Character Generation

At 05:47 PM 5/19/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Here is my system - any comments?
>
>Alternative Character Generation System
>
>Fistly Characteristics are rolled in the usual way with an additional
>characteristic - Memory.  Which I use isnstead of Education (I use
>Education as more of a general Knowledge Skill). This fixes the problem
>that the Education rewards are too frequent (IMHO).
>Note any increase to INT can instead be taken to MEM.

Just one: spell check.  Fistly?  isnstead?

:-)

 James Garriss           Information Systems Engineer, MITRE
 jpg@langley.mitre.org        http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:03:41 +0100
From: "Del Jones" <dojones@whitestar.u-net.com>
Subject: So long (and thanks for all the fish!)

<Lurking mode off>

Thanks for the many hours of interesting reading in the
last 5mths.
Going to have to stop now, since reality (i.e. work) comes
to all of us sooner or later,
and I really can't clutter this account now that there's
more important stuff coming in....
See you when all gets sorted out (hopefully soon)


Thanks again,
Yours,

Del Jones
St Helens
Lancashire UK
<Oblivion mode on...>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:12:27 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Campaign write up (LONGISH)

I just restarted playing after an absence of a few years, deciding to
return to MT as I hadn't run for a while, and it was my true love! (Except
for my wife ;-) ). Then I came across T4 and decided to try that out. The
following forms part of the notes for the players that I generate after
every session - if you want to see any more let me know...

The players -
Jack (Virgo, a stroppy ex-Merchant female with a rich daddy and designs on
a shipping line)
Adrian (later Rob) (James Hunter, a taciturn ex-marine)
Martin (Blueberry, a very laid back ex-Scout)
Jason (Colt, a slightly paranoid ex-Navy Lt)

Dom
- ------
SPOILER NOTICE - CONTAINS WRITE UPS OF PUBLISHED ADVENTURES
SPOILER NOTICE - CONTAINS WRITE UPS OF PUBLISHED ADVENTURES
SPOILER NOTICE - CONTAINS WRITE UPS OF PUBLISHED ADVENTURES
SPOILER NOTICE - CONTAINS WRITE UPS OF PUBLISHED ADVENTURES
SPOILER NOTICE - CONTAINS WRITE UPS OF PUBLISHED ADVENTURES
SPOILER NOTICE - CONTAINS WRITE UPS OF PUBLISHED ADVENTURES

Chapter 1 - Beginnings.

It is the year 1105, the place the gas giant moon Regina in the Spinward
Marches sector, and you have all mustered out from your respective military
services. These were: the Imperial Interstellar Scout Service (Blueberry),
the Imperial Interstellar Navy (Colt), the Imperial Marines (James Hunter)
and the Merchant Navy (Ms. Virgo Epstein).

At this turning point in your careers, you all have ambitions. Ambitions
that led Hunter and Epstein to meet at a bar in the Startown, the neutral
Imperial controlled area by Regina Downport. Blueberry and Colt had met in
a drinking binge earlier that week, and were presently sampling the local
beverages in that same bar. By a masterful piece of intuition, you guessed
that you were all interested in similar lines of work, and began talking.
Then a fracas developed in the bar, as some drunken sailors picked a fight
with the Scout personnel that patronise the bar. This was turning nasty,
until Blueberry saved the day, and frightened the drunkards away with a
flobee and some bullets in the roof of the establishment.

You got to talking to the senior Scout Administrator present (Administrator
Galaden) and eventually, he mentioned that he had two jobs that you might
be interested in. You agreed to meet the next morning, and went to your
respective homes wondering what the next day would bring.

After you had managed to get past his overly protective and officious
secretary, you set down to talking. Two tasks were offered, and accepted.
The first was to fly the body of a recently deceased Scout back to his kin
on the planet Yorbund, [PLOT HOOK for Shadows] and the second, to survey
the local worlds that you passed, with a cash bonus for encouragement. The
real bonus of the deal was the loan of a Scout/Courier, the Aurora

(The above adventure used parts of 'The Imperial Fringe' CT Introductory
Adventure.)

Chapter 2 - The Rings of Forboldn IV.

You boarded the Aurora, to find that she was, as promised, a standard 100
Ton Scout/Courier, with much of the specific survey and communications
equipment removed. However, enough remained for you to survey planets as
you travelled through the subsector, and beyond. The previous owner's taste
in decor wasn't everything that you liked, but that could be altered as
time moved on, and funds permited. The ship had enough fuel to make orbit,
and thanks to the agreement you'd entered into with the scout service you
had access to their facilities at starports, scout bases, and way stations
(links in the interstellar communication Xboat network).

After spending some time bickering over which cabin was whose [almost got
to gunplay], you took off, and headed away from the gas giant moon Regina,
sector and subsector capital. The flight out to refueling was almost
without incident, aside from some awkward questions from a naval patrol
cruiser. You dived into the gas giant atmosphere, successfully scooping in
hydrogen gas for use as fuel, before heading out system to jump to your
next destination, the planet Hefry.

7 days later, you emerged from jumpspace, and headed for the 'high port' in
orbit over Hefry. The docking fees were exhorbitant here - 1000 Cr for the
week, almost ten times normal. Fortunately, the scout base filled your fuel
tanks up for nothing, and the life support costs weren't too high. You
moved out from orbit and spent three days surveying the planet , and then
headed out to the minimum safe distance for engaging jump drive, 100
planetary diameters, to set course for your next stop, the planet Forboldn.

Until recently, Forboldn was a reserve world, but is currently the focus of
the Imperial Ministry of Colonisation - over the next twenty years,
thousands of colonists will arrive at the planet, many part of the minor
criminal (relocation) programme, where exile on a colony and amnesty are
exchanged for long sentences. The system has no scout base, so you planned
to use the ringed gas giant Forboldn IV to refuel.

Jump was, as ever, uneventful, and you emerged and headed towards the gas
giant. As you closed on the rings, you detected a sensor anomaly. Using the
active sensors this proved to be a tumbling Free Trader (called the
'Rubicon') with a small cutter attached by a docking tube, unresponsive to
all communication attempts. The Aurora was maneuvered close by, and
everyone apart from Colt got into vacuum suits to board the ship and
investigate. Hunter successfully reached the ship, and through careful
positioning of a 'hanging' line you all boarded the ship, entering through
the starboard cargo bay, which was open. The cargo deck was empty aside
from a crate and signs of foul play.

Searches of the ship and engineering revealed that the vessel had been
disabled from within by a traitor, and was in the service of the Imperium.
The crew and raiders appeared to have been spaced at variuos times during
the takeover. Certainly, no one was left alive on the Rubicon or the
Cutter. The Trader's mission appeared to relate to the purchase of a new
laser defence system for the Imperial Navy, with rivalry between the
subsidiaries of two megacorporations, Ling Standard Products and
Interstellarms. However, you could not get any further information, as the
mission's leader had strong encryption on his datapad.

As you stabilised the Trader, there were sounds of trouble from the Aurora
- - Pirates! They had come to investigate what was going on and why their
colleagues hadn't replied. Colt was soon in a firefight with two boarders,
pitting his 9mm automatic and a shotgun against two SMGs. Needless to say,
he was soon badly wounded, and only saved by the intervention of the rest
of the crew (and the ref). (Blueberry made quite a mess of the cockpit with
his armourpiercing rounds!).

Meanwhile, the rest of the pirates who had arrived started to open up with
the laser on their 'fast boat'. Virgo decided to experiment with the
Trader's weapon systems, and managed to use the self help tutorial on the
gun  to hit the Pirates' ship [intervention from me again, but the player
is now using XP for developing gunnery]. This tumbled out of control into
the ring when its fuel tanks were shattered, condemning the Pirates to a
slow, lingering death.

You acquired the Trader's cargo (a prototype point defence laser) and
installed it into the turret on your ship. The electronics and computer
software still need work, but it was sufficently good for the Navy not to
notice that you had stolen their prototype when you docked.

You handed over the Free Trader, and received a finder's bonus (100kCr!),
which Virgo almost caused you to loose by insulting the local naval
commander (Commodore John Snape). You spent the next seven days in
detention whilst they checked over your story. However, nothing criminal
came to the fore (luckily!) and you were released with the ominous comment
"we'll be watching you so you'd better be careful". You collected Colt from
the hospital where he had been recovering, and boarded the Aurora to plan
your next move, 30 days after you first left Regina.

(This chapter used parts of the scenario 'The Rubicon Cross' in the T4
Rulebook.)




- --------------- Dom Mooney (dom@cybergoths.u-net.com)---------------
"The fall of Empire, Gentlemen, is a massive thing, however, and not easily
fought. It is dictated by a rising bureaucracy, a receding initiative, a
freezing of caste, a damming of curiousity - a hundred other factors."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Hari Seldon - Azimov's "Foundation"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:56:31 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: What I like about Traveller.

Kenneth invited us to say what we like about Traveller. I've been thinking
and here are those same thoughts:

The sweeping future history of the Third Imperium.
The feeling of shock I got when I read survival margin and the effect of
Virus struck home.

The DGP Aliens series. (Brilliant on all counts).

The Starship operators Manual (DGP again - Pseudo-tech for the ref with
nice artwork)

Hard Times - my favourite GDW supplement, dark and brooding, but with a
streak of hope.

MT Imperial Encyclopedia (oh for an interactive version)

High Guard - a fast construction system that I can do without a calculator
(at a push) that also has a superb set of rules for capital ships
(especially with TCS).

M0 - flawed in some parts (no index, the FS problem) but a superb
supplement non-the-less.

Twilight's Peak - CT adventure campaign
Murder on Arcturus Station - CT murder mystery, reuseable

FFS (I don't really like the TNE system, but was impressed with this -
however, it was a little too detailed for me. It was a shame no other
'technical architecture profiles' came out).

Things that I want to see for T4 - bug hunted rules - they are potentially
the best yet.. fast, but with higher levels of detail available.

Dom, FWIW

- --------------- Dom Mooney (dom@cybergoths.u-net.com)---------------
"The fall of Empire, Gentlemen, is a massive thing, however, and not easily
fought. It is dictated by a rising bureaucracy, a receding initiative, a
freezing of caste, a damming of curiousity - a hundred other factors."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Hari Seldon - Azimov's "Foundation"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 11:26:02 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Ancients/Grandfather

On Wed, 21 May 1997, Ethan Henry wrote:

[snip]
> >I did not tell you to shut up.  You asserted that all jump drives are the
> >indirect creation of Grandfather.  You spoke as if you had evidence for
> >this fact, I asked to see the evidence from the Alien modules.  Thats all.  
> 
> *deep breath*
> 
> You're right. Sorry about getting all snappy like that. You didn't tell 
> me to shut up, of course (I said it was irrelevent, didn't I?).
> I was still a bit riled up about all those other flamewars going on.
> Apologies. (Must... defuse...TML... before... it... expl*BOOM*)

Thats ok.  I do like your idea though, it has a conspiracy feel to it I
like.  Old Grandfather had his fingers in more pies than can be imagined
it seems :)

[snip]
> In another post...
> 
> > >Yes he could have helped the major races but why would he want to.
> > >Since we know that the Ancient artifact the Zhodhani have that prompted
> > >them to do the Core Expiditions gives accurate representations of the
> > >future is it really so hard to imagine that Yaskodray knew they were
> > >going to be important later & stuck pictures of them on the coyns to
> > >help socialize the Droyne about who they were going to have to deal
> > >with.
> >
> > Hmmm, what artifact?
> 
> The Zhos found this big thing that shows a super-accurate map
> of a corridor going from Zhodani space most of the way to the core.
> The cool thing is, it isn't just a map - it actually shows what's
> happening in that section of space, not just in real time, but also
> in flashes from the past and _from the future_! it's also psionically
> active, causing a strage feeling of hilarity (like, supper giddiness)
> in some small percentage of viewers. Very wierd. It would make a good
> milieu book though, which I think was on MM's list of possible milieu books.
> (That is, the Zho Core Expeditions)
> 

Cool.  That why they did the expeditions.  Does show anything really cool,
like a new race or some terrible future danger?

Thanks
michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


Tell a man he is brave and
you help him to become so.
Thomas carlyle

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 97 17:59:30 +0100
From: Niko Wieleba <scarab1@pacbell.net>
Subject: Classic Traveller Question

Hi there:

This is probably a dumb question, but I have looked for this bit of 
information before in the past and not been able to find it:

Where do I find the cost and specifics of adding a fuel refinery to a 
ship for CT?

Likely it is just something I have overlooked -- or it is lurking 
somewhere I have not found yet.

Thanks in advance for your help!

Niko
scarab1@pacbell.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 97 17:59:17 +0100
From: Niko Wieleba <scarab1@pacbell.net>
Subject: Ancients Unassisted Suicide Technology

Hello:

I and my Traveller GM would like to thank the lister who posted their =
idea (?) about the Ancients item: a black box with buttons of red and =
blue on either side.  (Who'd'a thought Kavorkian (sp?) was =
Ancients-inspired?)

In our concluding session of Fate of the Skyraiders it disposed =
handily of a PC who =B3needed killin=B9.=B2  A true Darwin nominee =
who, after many attempts, finally got what he had been asking for and =
managed not to take the rest of the group with him!

Thanks!  :-)

Niko
scarab1@pacbell.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 97 17:59:34 +0100
From: Niko Wieleba <scarab1@pacbell.net>
Subject: RE: Need Help Please

Hello there!

I sympathize with your plight, Scott.

Just keep one thought in mind: what the GM giveth, the GM may taketh =
away.

Though it may paint me as whishy-washy, if I find I have given the =
PCs something that is too powerful or an item that they are using as =
a crutch and not the occasional butt-saver I intended it to be, I =
find a feasible way to get rid of it.

Items are easy: they can be misplaced, dropped when the characters =
are forced to be somewhere else in a hurry, stolen, confiscated by =
local authorities....  Soft touch or heavy boot may be applied =
depending upon the requirements of your players.  :)

Money is more difficult.  Though you *can* put them in situations =
where money is not a factor in their success/survival.  All the Cr in =
the world is not going to keep you from dying of thirst while =
stranded in the desert or freezing to death on an arctic world.

Be creative, but don=B9t be afraid to reward the clever PC/player as =
well.

Niko
scarab1@pacbell.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 97 20:51:13 -0400
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: World Write Up: Coaise

Hi, 
In an effort to get away from giant all encompasing flame war, I wrote
up the World Coaise in Theozennt Subesector of Old Expanses. As always
feel free to post it to what ever web pages you have.

It is set in the 1200, but has relevant material to Rebellion era campaigns.

Lewis


                           Coaise
                      UPP: X5568R7-6 

Before the Collapse, Coaise was run by the Imperial Navy, as the
subsector capital, and as a major Naval base. It was also the site of the
sector military academy. Each year thousands of youths, came to the
planet to become officers. The Naval base was the home of the 287th
Fleet, and was charged with keeping out the Solomani. When Lucan
ordered the Old Expanses fleets to Core Sector, they reluctantly went,
leaving behind only a few reserve ships, and thousands of cadets.

Faced with the threat of advancing Solomani fleets, and not having any
substantial defenses, the sector nobles, negotiated the annexation of the
Old Expanses sector. The Imperial Naval Academy on Coaise was
shutdown and its students sent home. The Solomani Navy, took over the
remains of the Base, and converted it their own use.

Coaise has always had a large Chirper population. The Imperials had
granted them a reservation on the smaller of the three continents. Here
the Chirpers maintain a primitive TL-1 lifestyle. The Imperial government
and several relief agencies, sponsored a few missions, to give the
Chirpers medical treatment, and food assistance. After the Solomani this
program was shutdown, not out of malign intent, but simply a bureaucratic
snafu. The Chirper population began a slow descent, as life expectancies
shortened, and food supplies shrank. The Chirpers have now stabilized at
a population of 280 million.

When Virus came, it possessed the entire planet, and for two days, chaos
reigned. Then suddenly it was over. A Virus strain had infected the Naval
base's strategic simulation computer. It was a Hobbyist, and became
interested in military strategy and tactics. It then began infecting the
other virus strains and destroying them. It then made an announcement to
the population claiming to be a human, who through force of will, and a
secret Imperial weapon, had been able to cleanse the planet of evil.

The dazed and confused humans allowed the computer, who was now
calling itself the Westlord, to set up a government run by it. The Westlord
found a intact computer on the eastern continent and infected it with a
duplicate copy of itself. This new version called itself the Eastlord. The
Eastlord and the Westlord, have created a society based around the
military. All able bodied citizens are required to serve in the military. The
two Viruses pit their two armies against each other in staged battles.
These battles happen every few months. The Viruses try out new
strategies and tactics in these battles. Mostly they use TL-5 equipment,
but every now and then, the Viruses will create a historical simulation.
Recently they ran a battle, using ancient Vilani calvary units.

Most residents glory in the constant warfare. They feel that the wars,
make them feel more human, and expands the human spirit. They would
love, the West and East lords, and would put their own lives on the line,
to protect them. 

References: Rebellion Sourcebook & Path of Tears
 
Physical Properties
  Horizon:4.0km
  Gravity: 1.2
  Orbital Distance=5.2 AU       Orbital Period: 8.18 yrs
  Rotational Period: 21hrs      eccentricity=0.0

Extended System
Orbit    Name           UPP
 Primary  Prime         A4 V
  0      Derag          LGG
                        6 satellites
  1                     Empty
  2      Ecrofl         LGG
            5 satellites
  3      Xanth          LGG
            8 satellites
  4      Igo            SGG
            6 satellites
  5      Dust Ring      Planetoid Ring
  6      Coaise         X556867-6

 
Lewis Roberts
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Q:Why does an elephant have a trunk?
A:So that it has someplace to hide when it sees a mouse.        
 
lewis@chara.gsu.edu
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 20:00:19 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Anybody out there?

This is very strange ... I've gotten no messages whatsoever from the TML
since early last night, instead of the dozens I normally get ... I pray we
haven't killed each other off. Is anybody still alive?
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 21:05:53 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: No new messages?

Nothing to the TML in over 12 hours?  Is there a problem with the list, or
is it just me?

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|   about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|   Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|     -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin" |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:07:16 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Public Apology to Kenneth

> Kenneth,
> 
> I am guilt of a very maligned act for which I am indeed sorry.  I had 
> no right, nor excuse to call you nor compare you to a nazi.  I don't 
> expect you to excuse this act but I wanted you to know that I 
> realize that it was very inappropriate and totally uncalled for.
> 
> Since the attack was public it is only right that the apology be like 
> wise.  I am sending this to the list and to you personally to make 
> sure that you receive it.  I have been told that several others have 
> lefted the list and I didn't know if you were one of them or not.
> 
> J.D. Burdick
> Twolf


J.D.,

I completely accept you apology.  To tell you the truth, I was never 
really offended (but I know many others were).

This issues on this list can sometimes get pretty heated because so 
many of us are so emotionally involved with Traveller.  God knows 
that I've gotten a little hot headed from time to time, and if 
anybody on this list is known for passionate posts, it is me.

I owe you an apology too.  I can get pretty pushy when I believe in 
something.  Sometimes it is an asset to my character, and sometimes 
it is not.  It is clear that I've come across to you very wrong, and 
I apologize for that.

I am glad that we can see eye to eye on this, and, as far as I'm 
concerned, I've forgotten it.  It takes quite a lot for me to hold a 
grudge, and you have not earned that.

The thing that I am most happy about, though, is that we can put 
this thing past us, and get on with discussing issues about 
Traveller.

Welcome back, J.D.

Sincerely,

Kenneth. 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 17:28:54 +1200
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: Where is everyone?

Am I still subscribed to this List - Where is everyone?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 09:29:06 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Casualties

>Now, of course, if a TL12 battlefield follows the trends of current
>warfare, particularly if energy or gauss weapons are used a lot, first aid
>might be turned into 'Hey..are you alive?'  Combat could be far deadlier,
>with few injuries, and lots of people scratched or dead, with little in
>between.

Are there any studies showing an increased lethality in modern warfare? I
thought the opposite was true except for civilians.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 11:34:13 +0100
From: Liam McCauley <NerfHerder@Enterprise.net>
Subject: Re: Public Apology to Kenneth

At 12:58 21/05/97 +0000, Twolf wrote:
>Kenneth,
>
>I am guilt of a very maligned act for which I am indeed sorry.
[snip]

Twolf, you've just gone up a great deal in my estimation.  It takes more
guts to make a public apology than it does to make a public attack, and I
respect you for it.

Most other people involved in this "debate" seem to have cooled off and
offered "a hand of peace" (sorry, I can't remember who said this).  I hope
that the people who have, or who plan to leave the list will reconsider.

Cheers,
Liam
- -- 
NerfHerder@Enterprise.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 11:16:13 +0100
From: Liam McCauley <NerfHerder@Enterprise.net>
Subject: Re: Casualties

At 07:08 21/05/97 -0700, Bruce wrote:

[snip]
>
>Now, of course, if a TL12 battlefield follows the trends of current
>warfare, particularly if energy or gauss weapons are used a lot, first aid
>might be turned into 'Hey..are you alive?'  Combat could be far deadlier,
>with few injuries, and lots of people scratched or dead, with little in
>between. 
>
[snip]

I saw an interesting program about injuries caused by battlefield weapons
about 3 years ago.  One thing that was discussed was the difficulty of
treating soldiers hit by flechettes.  The patient had to be stripped and
examined carefully just to spot the entry wounds.  Unfortunately, the
flechettes then had a habit of bending and/or bouncing off hard tissue
inside the body, making it very difficult to locate them.  I seem to recall
that they were also difficult to spot with x-rays because they are long and
slender (although I may be wrong about this).

It has been suggested before that causing incapacitating injuries to an
enemy ties up a lot more of their resources than simply killing them.

Going off the current T4 rules, especially the 3 dice max damage (other
than shotguns, which seem to have changed from a damage of 4 to a damage of
2 where each damage point does 2 dice of harm [see EA]), it seems that most
battlefield injuries caused by small arms will be mission-kills [i.e. the
victim can no longer continue with his mission], but are unlikely to
actually kill (I'm disregarding increased damage attacks, because I'm
assuming that *most* fire on the battlefield will be aimed at the centre of
mass).  I seem to recall that explosion damage is not limited to 3 dice,
but I can't remember seeing a ruling for plasma weapons (can anyone help me
with this).

Cheers,
Liam
- -- 
NerfHerder@Enterprise.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 01:06:50 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Is there a comprehensive list of subsectors?

In mail you write:

> I am working on making my sector mapper smart enough to put neighboring
> subsector names in for all known sectors of the Imperium, but this would
> require having a list of them, I think.
>
> Has anyone compiled such a thing?

I'm working on it.


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 20:59:42 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Relativistic manuever drives

In mail you write:

>    Conventions:
>
>    All distances in meters, times in seconds, acceleration in meters per
>    second squared (where 1G = 10 m/s^2, 2G = 20 m/s^2, and so on). All
>    equations assume that the ship starts from rest at the origin,
>    accelerates to midpoint and then decellerates to rest at the
>    destination.
>
>    D = distance in meters
>    A = acceleration in m/s^2
>    t = dialated time as experienced by the starship's crew
>    T = undialated time as experienced by the planetary populations
>    c = speed of light: 300,000,000 meters per second
>
>    D = (1/4) * A * t^2
>    t = sqrt(4*D/A)
>
>    D = (c^2/A) * (  sqrt(4+(A*T/c)^2) - 2  )
>    T = (c/A) * sqrt( (A*D/c^2)*(A*D/c^2 + 4) )
>
>    I hope these help out you high velocity buffs out there.

I vaguely recognize these formulas. And you've made a slight goof. It
appears that you are using A from the *rest frame*. That's not good
because it has the ship's acceleration AS FELT BY THE CREW increasing!

The correct formulas are in the sci.space or sci.astro FAQ. And they
involve hyperbolic functions.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1357
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 22 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1358



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Ship economics -- fuel consumption
Re: Robert and I rant about hard science
Re: Public Apology to Kenneth
Sector/subsector maps
Re: TAS Question
Relativistic manuever drives
CT Question: an answer
Re: Casualties
The need for SPEED!
Ken's Combat Tweaks
Clarification...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 21:36:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Ship economics -- fuel consumption

In mail you write:

>    Maybe I've missed something, as I've only been back a while, so please
> excuse any ignorance on my part if the basis of this posting is incorrect.
>
>    Unless you have some form of jump governor, you can't stop a j-drive from
> using all the available fuel whether a ship does a jump-1 or jump-2
> maneuver, right? Meaning that if you have an amount of fuel that's enough
> for a jump-2, it may all be used up in a jump-1.
>
>    Possible fix: Sorry if it's been mentioned before, but why not put the
> jump fuel into separate fuel tanks? They can be rigged up with fuel lines
> that can be interchanged for a jump-1 or 2 or whatever, or the multiple
> fuel holds could be situated next to each other with a retractable
> partition so that it becomes a say jump-2 fuel hold instead of two 1's, if
> all the fuel must be in one compartment that is. Whad'ya reckon, possible?

You have a nice, but incorrect view. Any given jump drive can jump any
distance up to it's max. But without a jump governor, you are doing
exactly that, you are restricting the distance of a jump-X. So a jump
made with a J-3 drive takes fuel as a J-3 because it *is* a J-3. Supply
less fuel and you don't jump at all.

The governor makes the *drive* act like a it was built for a lower jump
number. in effect it turns a J-3 drive into a J-2 or J-1 drive. 

To put it another way, a J-3 drive needs the fuel for a 3 parsec jump
to jump at all. Likewise a J-2 needs fuel for a 2 parsec jump, and a
J-1 drive fuel for a 1 parsec jump. The governor makes the drive into a
smaller drive, which then only needs the smaller amount of fuel.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 23:12:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Robert and I rant about hard science

In mail you write:

>>    For a million-kg scout courier with 2G
>>    acceleration, a 700km/s HEPlar drive would yield 10^13 watts,
>>    10 million megawatts.  For a ship with a 500 MW power plant (CT),
>>    this is quite a power load (for CT, where manuever drives require
>>    power) or quite a windfall (for T4, where HEPlaR yields power). 
>>    There is a "play-balance" (as opposed to magical 8^) fudge factor in
>>    conservation of momentum and energy of about 20,000.  Not to worry,
>>    though!  With a little optimization, it's trivial to reduce this
>>    fudge factor to a mere 1000 or so.
>
> Sigh.  Yes, it's completely true, the power levels required for Trav ships
> to maneuver per canon are entirely broken, utterly magical, completely out
> of touch with reality if one holds to canonical power supply types and
> outputs.

Sorry, but the essential error in the above is *not* a failure of hard
science in the game. It's making the *assumption* that the energy of
the propulsion system comes from the power plant. 

For *any* reaction drive, this is *false*. The drive itself is a highly
specialized powerplant that takes in the fuel and converts it to
"power" in the form of a high speed exhaust. The power output of a
reaction drive is a matter of *extremely* secondary concern.

The ship's power plant just provides enough energy to start the engine,
which then generates enough to keep itself running as well as "throwing
away" 99.99999% as hot exhaust gases.

A Saturn V had a power output in the gigawatts if not higher. But it
didn't even *have* a "power plant" in the traveller sense unless you
count the fuel cells in the Service Module.


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 09:26:58 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Public Apology to Kenneth

>At 12:58 21/05/97 +0000, Twolf wrote:
>Kenneth,
>
>I am guilt of a very maligned act for which I am indeed sorry.
[snip]

I, too, then must retract many of the things I said a bit ago.  While I may
have quibbles with how you chose to say things, being present to hear the
results, and then apologizing for those things which you regret saying at a
later time makes it merely a difference in expression.

I must congratulate the people who did _not_ get involved in the
debate/debacle.  I do have a private list of who abstained, and I rather
wish my name was on it. :(

Lets hope we can all put this behind us, and get back to the game.

On that note - I missed all letters sent on the list from about 3 PM PST
Wed. to early this morning, so if anyone other than Leonard Erickson
replied to my request for a subsector list, or to any of my innumerable
requests for suggestions on what you would like in a program to turn DGP,
IG, or FS data into a good sector map, please email me.

Scott

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 09:26:29 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Sector/subsector maps

I am still working on a program to analyze DGP or IG sector data into
postscript-based maps.  I am now wondering what people need.

While I am still interested in feature requests and data formats, I am now
looking for new output formats.  I can presently do sector maps, and full
page subsector maps with data inside the hexes, but I do not have a good
half page plus half page of data format.  Favorites?

Also, if you wanted to shade or draw a border around a group of worlds,
would a command syntax like
in the .sec file:
!group 3Iy0 1810 1811 2011
!group 3Iy20 3Iy0 2013

and on the command line to run it

HexPS -border 3Iy0 convex -shade 3Iy20 light hex -default physical -full 3Iy20

be reasonable?

This would draw a border around the y0 third imperium, and shade the third
imperium worlds as of y20.

You specify groups of related worlds in the .sec file, and then on the
command line, what you want to do with those groups.

I am presently thinking you can do the following:
border - draw a border around the hexes.  Open borders do not cover the
edge of the map, while closed ones do.

shade - shade the hexes with a light grey, dark grey, or black.

physical - shows only the physical data, and uses a question mark for the
world symbol

blank - shows only a question mark for the entire hex, and prints no data

full - show all data for worlds in the group

default - set the default shading or display for worlds.

A convex group includes the hexes between the named ones, while a hex group
includes only those hexes listed.

Things it does well:
hexes without registration errors
making individual subsector maps out of an aggregate sector file
appropriate symbols for water, desert, asteroid
capitalize names of populous worlds
delete periods at the end of FS names

Things it does not yet do:
shading
automatic borders
specifying which of several symbols corresponds to a given type of base.
xboat routes
summary statistics for the sector data file

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 97 18:02 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: TAS Question

In-Reply-To: <337533D7.6E0@alaska.net>

<<   If you are a real cynic about _who_
decides to amber zone a world you could assume that if & when TAS is
kicked off a planet they promptly go to their good friends in the
Imperial government & get the planet amber zoned. (Unspoken premise
"Anyone who would kick _us_ out must be barbarians"). >>

Aren't Amber Zones assigned by TAS?

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:09:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Relativistic manuever drives

   Hi.

> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 20:59:42 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

>>    D = (1/4) * A * t^2
>>    t = sqrt(4*D/A)
>>    D = (c^2/A) * (  sqrt(4+(A*T/c)^2) - 2  )
>>    T = (c/A) * sqrt( (A*D/c^2)*(A*D/c^2 + 4) )

> I vaguely recognize these formulas. And you've made a slight goof. It
> appears that you are using A from the *rest frame*. That's not good
> because it has the ship's acceleration AS FELT BY THE CREW increasing!

   No, A is the acceleration as felt by the crew.  It is constant.  By
   "rest frame", I assume you mean the frame of the star systems.  In
   that frame, dv/dt = A/gamma^3.
 
> The correct formulas are in the sci.space or sci.astro FAQ. And they
> involve hyperbolic functions.

   Thanks for the tip;  I'll use these as a check on my work.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:17:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: CT Question: an answer

   Hi.

> Date: Wed, 21 May 97 17:59:30 +0100
> From: Niko Wieleba <scarab1@pacbell.net>
 
> Where do I find the cost and specifics of adding a fuel refinery to a 
> ship for CT?

   In Book 5, High Guard.  The chart is on the page opposite the IN Ship
   Form.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:26:17 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Casualties

On Thu, 22 May 1997, Liam McCauley wrote:

> It has been suggested before that causing incapacitating injuries to an
> enemy ties up a lot more of their resources than simply killing them.

	Standard battlefield doctrine; you want to cause casualties, not
deaths. You're right, it's to make the enemy devote more resources. This
is also why the Geneva conventions prohibit the military from using soft
lead for bullets, rather than steel jacketed as they use now. Soft
projectiles do more damage, hard ones tend to go right through. This lets
the standard doctrine be used, but at least in a _relatively_ more humane
fashion. Steel jacketed rouds are also useful against materiel targets
too, but that's a secondary concern. 

	This is why I have to laugh when we see reports in the US of
'militia' members being arrested with 'military armor-piercing ammunition'
as though they went out of their way to buy it. No, in most cases, they
bought that because it's CHEAP SURPLUS ammo...

> I seem to recall that explosion damage is not limited to 3 dice,
> but I can't remember seeing a ruling for plasma weapons (can anyone help me
> with this).
 
No, energy weapons deliver full damage to the target as well as
explosions. The three dice rule is to simulate 'through-and-through'
wounds of the kind of high energy projectiles that cause, gauss rifle
rounds for instance, more than three dice of damage.  It's a poor
approximation of the problem, IMHO, but that's what the rules state.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:56:45 -0500
From: Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com>
Subject: The need for SPEED!

Hey, all. This is something I noticed las night, and thought I'd toss
out for public mutilation.

	I recently completed a .22 bullseye league. For those of you not
familiar with it, it consists of firing a .22 pistol at a target 25
yards downrange, one handed. The targets are approximately 10 inches
across.

	During the rapid fire portion of the competition, the shooters fire 5
rounds at the target in a 6 second time period. Now, I'm not a great
shot ( Dex of about 8-9, Pistol of about 1), but I managed to hit the
target 5 out of 5 on most ocassions. However, in T4, this would have
been impossible. Assuming Dex 8, my target number would have been 2 (8 /
5 = 1.6, round to 1, + 1 for pistol skill ) on 2.5D6 (range of 25
yards). Since the lowest possible roll on 2.5D6 is 3, the shot would
have been impossible. even if you rounded up, the target would be 3,
which would have made it fairly difficult to hit as many times as I did.
And this isn't even taking into account the relatively small size of the
target.

	One fix would be to use the ROF rules from TNE, or maybe base the
number of unpenalized actions on the controlling attribute (say, half or
a third, round down?), with a penalty of x per action to all actions
that turn per extra action?

	Thoughts?

Ryan

litefoot@feist.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:32:50 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Ken's Combat Tweaks

My game has been moving pretty steady now--having a session once 
every other week, and I'm getting a good feel for the T4 rules since 
we've switched over from my house system.

I like the special rules for melee combat on page 60, but I feel that 
two of them are a little too powerful and need some tweaking.

I thought I'd share my tweaks with you.





Strength Pool  (Offensive Pool).

This is a powerful pool.  You can take out a PC pretty quick using 
it.  I like the idea behind it, but I think there should be some 
disadvantage to using it.

Here's what I'm doing:  for every damage die that is re-rolled, one 
point is added to the character's fatigue pool.

This makes sense to me.  You are expending extra energy to ensure 
that your enemy gets hurt quick--fighting harder than you normally 
would.  The cost to you is that you grow tired faster.





Dexterity Pool  (Defensive Pool).

The Dex pool is the opposite of the Str pool.  You are expending 
extra energy to defend yourself.

Just like in the offensive pool, for every point that is used from 
the defensive pool as a DM for the character's attacker, a point is 
added to the character's fatigue pool.

This makes sense to me too.  You are doing everything you can to make 
sure that you are not damaged--expending more energy than you 
normally would to ensure that you are not.  It is reasonable to say 
that you will get tired quicker than if you fought normally.




What I like about these two fixes is that it give the character 
something to think about.  You can get this benefit at the cost of 
this disadvantage.  Is it worth it to you?

Implementing these tweaks in my game has made melee combat more fun.  
It is almost a chess match--each side picking and using rules to 
their best advantage.

Last time we played, we had a great hand to hand fight, and the 
higher skilled NPC got his but kicked (I should say killed, but they 
put him in a low berth real quick) by the lower skilled PC because of 
the player's smart use of the combat options that were open to him.

And, it was a heck of a fun fight.  The player now is telling 
everybody in the group, "Yea!  I kicked the ninja's ass!"

It was fun as hell.





Here's another little tweak I've implemented.

Endurance Pool  (Fatigue Pool).

I don't really have a fix for this pool as I think it is done well.  
It is a better interpretation of the Weakened Blow rule from CT (Way 
to go IG!).

What I suggest here is adding something to it.  In the description of 
this rule, there is a listing of two instances where blows are not 
counted against a character's fatigue pool--Surprise Strikes and 
Special Strikes.

I propose this:  when a character rolls Spectacular Success on an 
attack, the blow does not count against the character's fatigue pool. 
This is just an added benefit to landing a great hit.  (this rule 
was inspired by the TNE rule where SS melee blows did not count 
against a charcter's actions for that round.)

Since SS in KBv2.0 is based on a character's skill level, this 
happens more often (but not that much more often) than it does if you 
are using T4 or T4-Revised.

Either way, this makes sense to me, although I know some would argue 
that you are still expending a great deal of effort (maybe even more 
than normal) even if you do make a perfect it.

But, my players like it, and I like it--and it gives them that little 
gleam in their eyes when they land one on the bad guys.

I think the tweak is a keeper.




Special Note on SS and the Critical HIt Rule.

There's another thing I do with SS in combat situations.  Notice page 
57, left column, third full paragraph from the top.  There is a rule 
stated there that I call the critical hit rule.  Some people have 
called it the first blood rule.  It says that the first time a 
charcter takes damage, the damage is random rolled between a 
character's stats instead of allowing the player to pick where the 
damage goes.

I like this rule.  It is a hold over from CT, and I like it.  But, it 
needs one little tweak.

I don't like the idea that this critical hit type damage (and 
trust me, it can incapacitate or even kill a character real 
quick) happens first in every combat.

Why can't a critical hit happen later in the combat?  Why can't it 
happen more than once?  Why does it always happen as the first damage 
taken in the fight?

When one of my players suggested that each of them damage themselves 
a little bit (abusing the rule) before a fight, I knew it was time to 
tweak the rule.

So, here's what I do.  During combat, all damage is taken off at the 
character's discretion in compliance with the rules on page 57 except 
for the critical hit rule.

I'm keeping the critical hit rule, but I'm changing the instance that 
it occurs.

Anytime a character rolls SS on a combat attack, the person hit gets 
a critical hit rolled against him.  So, instead of damage being 
rolled, automatically, between a character's stats for the first hit 
in the combat, this random rolled damage is implemented anytime a SS 
is rolled on the to hit throw.

This makes the critical hit random vs automatic on the first hit;  it 
gives a huge benefit to rolling SS;  and, it keeps PC's alive longer 
because the occurance rate is much lower (automatically once every 
combat session vs the low percentage occurrance of SS).





Lastly, I've supplemented the hand to hand attack routines in T4 with 
routines that I've converted from TNE.

If you want to give your players more options in hand to hand 
fighting, you may want to adopt some of these as well.

Here they are.

1)  Block:
A character in T4 has a number of options for defense in melee or 
hand to hand combat.  He already gets his skill as a  -DM against his 
opponent's attack throw.  He can also use his Defensive Pool (see the 
top of this post) to change the attack to a miss.

Then, there's the Pure Defense option on page 55.  Now, I'm adding 
one more option--the block.

This is different from the Pure Defense in that 
a character may combine a block with an offensive attack 
routine using the multiple action rule.

Whenever a character is successfully attacked by some form of melee
attack, he may choose an attempt at blocking it.  If the attack is an
armed attack, then the defender must use a weapon of some sort to
block with.  (You cannot use your arm to block a sword blow.)

The task to attempt a block is:  Formidable test of Brawling

Success means that the attack is blocked, but the block action still
counts against a character's End pool (if you use the optional pools).
 Spectacular Success means that the block does not count against the
character's End pool  (this is the tweak I made above).  If the block 
is against an armed melee weapon, then use the appropriate skill of 
the weapon being used to block.  The Brawling skill may be used if an 
improvised weapon is used, or the block is to defend against a hand 
to hand attack.

One thing to note here.  The Block is an action.  Let's say a 
character wins initiative and goes first.  Then, he is hit by his 
opponent.  The Block option is not open to the character because he 
has already made his action for the round.  A way around this is to 
use the multiple action rule (page 58).




Special Note on the Multiple Action Rule.

I use the multiple action rule a little differently than it is stated 
in Book 1.  There, it says that character's can do multiple actions 
as long as they are done at the same time.

I've changed that a bit in that I let my players have multiple 
actions as long as they state that before their first action.

For instance, if a player anticipates that he will need to block 
later in the round (or, for that matter, make another attempt at any 
action), he states that he will use the multiple action rule for the 
number of actions he want to make in that round.

If Blann decides that he might need to make a block, Blann's player 
will state that he is going to make two actions that round.

Under KBv2.0, for multiple actions, we figure target numbers normally 
but divide by the number of actions performed in the round.

Blann's first action--let's say it is an attack--will have it's 
target number halved (and his chances of hitting halved) because he 
is wanting to do a multiple action later in the round.

Then, when Blann is hit and he wants to attempt a block, he can use 
his second action to attempt the block (and because it is his second 
action, the target number is halved).

Blann will be allowed no other actions in the round.  If he wanted to 
do more than two actions, he needed to indicate that before his first 
action played out.

Doing multiple actions this way gives players a certain amount of 
uncertainty in their decisions.  They really don't know if they are 
going to need that second action--or they might need more.

And, the cost of multiple actions is great.  You have your chances 
for each additional action.  You might be able to attempt 6 actions 
in a round (one per second), but it is completely unlikely that you 
will be successful with any of them because each of their target 
numbers will only be one sixth of what they are normally.





2)  Leaping Kick:
A leaping kick is an attempt to put more force behind a kick by 
throwing oneself feet-first at the enemy.  When figuring the End pool,
this attack routine costs two points.

The task to attempt a leaping kick is:  Difficult test of Dexterity

Success means that the attacker has hit the enemy and has managed to
land on his feet.  The target attacked takes double normal strike
damage (1 D6 x 2).

Failure means that both the target and the attacker are knocked down.
Damage equal to 1 D6 is inflicted on both of them.

A character who is not surprised may try to avoid a leaping kick.  If
the attack is avoided, the attacker either lands on his feet or
crashes to the ground based on his original attack throw.  The
avoidance roll is considered an attack, unless SS is rolled, with
regard to the End pool.

The task to avoid a leaping kick is:  Difficult test of Dexterity

Like the Block, the avoidance roll is considered an action.  The 
character can do more than avoid his opponent in one round if he uses 
the multiple action rule.



3)  Kick:
The kick attack form is separated from the strike attack form on pg.
55 of T4. 

The Strike attack on page 55 covers kicking, but I consider this kick 
to be a more solid, damaging kick, like a round house to the head or 
a karate kick to the torso.  The Strike attack kick in the book is a 
normal kick--like a knee in the groin or a kick to the leg.

This kick is harder to do but also delivers more damage.  This
attack routine counts as two points against a character's End pool. 
Damage from a kick is 1.5D.

The task to attempt a kick is:  Difficult test of Brawling.



4)  Strangle:
A strangle is handled like a grapple (see rules pg. 55, T4), with a
few exceptions.  (A) The strangle attempt may be blocked by an Average
test of Dexterity.  (B) The strangle attempt causes 1 point of damage
to the victim each combat round which is applied solely to the
victim's End score.  When the victim's End score reaches 0, he is
either unconscious or dead at the attacker's discretion (Strangled
characters will usually fall unconscious before they die--the attacker
can, at that point, decide whether to kill the victim or not. 
Alternatively, the GM can devise a check--I suggest roll against the
victim's End--to see if the character is dead.)  (C) Use of a garotte
will double the damage inflicted by a strangle attack to 2 points per
combat round.

If the initial block of the strangle is unsuccessful, the only way to
save a character is if he is successful breaking away from the
strangle attempt.  This is handled the same as breaking away from a
grapple attempt--which is covered under grappling in the T4 rules.



5)  Throws:
A throw is a defensive move and can only be attempted by a character
who is successfully attacked by an unarmed strike attack, a kick, a
grapple, or a strangle.  (some GMs may allow a throw in response to a 
small weapon melee attack like a knife lunge).  

The character must first make a block task roll for the specific
attack form against him.  This block sets up the throw and must be
successful before the throw can be attempted.  If the block is not
successful, the attack on the character is carried out normally, and
the throw may not be attempted.

If the block is successful, the throw can be attempted, and this
attempt cannot be avoided by the object of the throw.

The task to attempt a throw is:  Formidable test of Brawling

Success means that the oppenent is thrown to the ground and suffers 1
D6 damage.  Failure means that the throw is unsuccessful, but the
block remains successful.  

Since grapples cannot be blocked, a character must first break free
before attempting the throw.  The block/throw combination attempt is
considered one action, and when this is attempted, successful or not,
one point in the character's End pool is used up.

Victims of a throw can attempt to limit the damage from the throw by
rolling a task to controll their landing.

The task to control landing is:  Difficult test of Dexterity

If successful, damage from the throw is halved.  If, on the other
hand, the task to attempt the throw was a spectacular success, no roll
to control landing is allowed.  The control landing roll is not
considered an action against the victim's End pool.



6)  Diving Blows:
A diving blow is an attempt to throw oneself at the enemy and knock
him off his feet.  Blocking is not possible, but avoidance is.  Unlike
other melee attack forms, the diving blow always succeeds unless the
target is successful with his avoidance roll.  A diving blow counts as
two points against a character's End Pool.

If a character is surprised, the diving blow always hits without
error.  If the object of the diving blow is not surprised, he may make
a roll to avoid.

The task to attempt avoidance is:  Average test of Dexterity

If the blow is avoided, the attacker falls to the ground, having
missed the target.  If the attack is not avoided, the diving blow
automatically hits.

When a diving blow hits, compare two scores to see who is knocked
down.  If 1 D6 + (2 x End) of the attacker is greater than Str + End
of the defender, the defender is knocked down and suffers damage equal
to the difference between the two values.  Otherwise, the attacker is
knocked down and suffers damage equal to the difference between the
two values.  Defenders who are surprised use only their End for
comparison.





These additional hand to hand rules are pretty straight 
forward conversions from TNE to T4.  I've made some changes because 
of the hit point/damage systems in the two games are on different 
scales, but GMs may wish to interpret changes differently from the 
way I did.

Anyway, I hope all of this makes your combats more fun and 
interesting.

Comments are always welcome.

Kenneth.  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:47:28 -0500
From: Paul Walker <tiger@goldinc.com>
Subject: Clarification...

After talking to a few people in an effort to explanify and where necessary
clear up the air, I became aware of a few misconceptions that my last post
created, and I am going to try to clarify those.

1.  Yes, I did sell/am selling all (or almost all) of my Traveller
collection.  I have one copy of the TNE main book, the T4 main book, and the
MT boxed set left.  The first two were too poor quality to sell, and the
last, the person interested in buying it backed out.  But yes, all of my
stuff is gone.

2.  Yes, I am leaving Traveller, but NOT THE MAILING LIST.  When I say
leaving Traveller, basically I mean I'm not going to be playing, buying, or
spending much time with Traveller.  I still plan to participate in THUDDD
for as long as I am able (or till I make a clean sweep of the competition
:).  And, of course, as long as SSDS and QSDS are official and available on
the WWW.

  This is one issue that I know has confused quite a few people.  Starting
last year some time when I first "decided" to get out of Traveller.  Yes, no
arguments from me that I have been wishy washy about it, but I do simply ask
that, if my wishy washy-ness confuses you, try to understand how hard it
would be if you had to make the decision to leave Traveller like I am.  If
you truly grasp that, then you will understand exactly why I have had
trouble REALLY leaving and why I have done it three or four times.

3.  In my previous post, I made some harsh comments about the quality of
IG's products.  While I stand by those decisions, I want it to be MORE than
perfectly clear that I DO NOT CARRY THOSE FEELINGS OVER TO ANY OF THE OTHER
CONTRIBUTORS.  That is to say, Dave Golden, Wildstar, Allen, Joe, and Stu
(and the rest of CORE) have IMHO done a smashing job.  Now what IG has done
to their work is another thing entirely, but be it known, if this crew was
in charge rather than IG, the decision to leave would probably been MUCH,
MUCH harder for me to make.  I respect the quality and commitment of these
people VERY MUCH, and I appreciate everything they have and are doing to
keep Traveller a worthy RPG.


Well, I think that sums it up.  Like I said, I'm still here and I will
comment now and again, but it will definitely not be regularly.  Till then,
keep the flame and keep on Travelling.

    Paul {tiger}
     tiger@goldinc.com
     http://www.goldinc.com/~tiger

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1358
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, May 23 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1359



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: The need for SPEED!
Re: S/F Role playing games
Re: Public Apology to Kenneth
Re: Sector/subsector maps
Re: The need for SPEED!
Re: The need for SPEED!
Re: The need for SPEED!
More hard SF ranting
RE: Classic Traveller Question
Re: What I like about Traveller.
Re: World Write Up: Coaise
Re: TML Helps Out!  (was FS data - what to do?)
IG Request for Inputs
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1357
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1358
Re: Geonee, Suerrat, and First Numbered Fleets
Call for Playtesters
More homebrew combat rules...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 15:09:30 -0400
From: Nikodemus <tauman@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: The need for SPEED!

Ryan Christensen wrote:
> 
> Hey, all. This is something I noticed las night, and thought I'd toss
> out for public mutilation.
> 
>         I recently completed a .22 bullseye league. For those of you not
> familiar with it, it consists of firing a .22 pistol at a target 25
> yards downrange, one handed. The targets are approximately 10 inches
> across.
> 
>         During the rapid fire portion of the competition, the shooters fire 5
> rounds at the target in a 6 second time period. Now, I'm not a great
> shot ( Dex of about 8-9, Pistol of about 1), but I managed to hit the
> target 5 out of 5 on most ocassions. However, in T4, this would have
> been impossible. Assuming Dex 8, my target number would have been 2 (8 /
> 5 = 1.6, round to 1, + 1 for pistol skill ) on 2.5D6 (range of 25
> yards). Since the lowest possible roll on 2.5D6 is 3, the shot would
> have been impossible. even if you rounded up, the target would be 3,
> which would have made it fairly difficult to hit as many times as I did.
> And this isn't even taking into account the relatively small size of the
> target.
> 
>         One fix would be to use the ROF rules from TNE, or maybe base the
> number of unpenalized actions on the controlling attribute (say, half or
> a third, round down?), with a penalty of x per action to all actions
> that turn per extra action?
> 
>         Thoughts?
> 
> Ryan
> 
> litefoot@feist.com


Yeah, none of the targets were moving or back shooting at you. ; )

- --/tauman

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 15:25:32 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: S/F Role playing games

On Sun, 18 May 1997, Matthew Harelick wrote:

> Hi: 
> 
> Unlike alot of players on the list, I do not use the Imerium for my 
> Universe but rather just use the rule set from classic and
> megatraveller. Since the quality of output from IG has been unstable 
> as of late I have since considered converting my Universe to a new 
> rule set, perhaps GURPS. 
> 
> Does anyone else have any other suggestions? 
> 

Your post is a bit confusing, are you looking for a new setting or a new
rules set?

In either case, what are you looking for, a good space opera background?
A paranoid 'dark future' background?  A near future cyberpunklike
background?

Or are you looking for a free form unstructured rules set?  perhaps you
want more structured rules?  Perhaps something that is in between?

Ther eare a lot of choices out there, but you need to be more specific.

Pete

Whose rules are slippery enough to change mid game without danger of
inconsistency.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 97 14:38:06 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Public Apology to Kenneth

On 1997-05-22 10:26 thus spake Scott Ellsworth:

>On that note - I missed all letters sent on the list from about 3 PM PST
>Wed. to early this morning, so if anyone other than Leonard Erickson
>replied to my request for a subsector list, or to any of my innumerable
>requests for suggestions on what you would like in a program to turn DGP,
>IG, or FS data into a good sector map, please email me.

I missed them too. Does anyone know what happened?

===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 97 14:38:01 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Sector/subsector maps

On 1997-05-22 10:26 thus spake Scott Ellsworth:

>While I am still interested in feature requests and data formats, I am now
>looking for new output formats.  I can presently do sector maps, and full
>page subsector maps with data inside the hexes, but I do not have a good
>half page plus half page of data format.  Favorites?

First of all, I must thank you for the admirable work you're undertaking. 
It's something I've always wanted to do, but I just didn't have the spare 
time to learn postscript. :) Postscript reminds me of the ol' HP 48 I 
used to have...

For half page+half page subsector maps, a format similar to the old 
Supplement 3: Spinward Marches would be good, with more information on 
the hex maps and the extended World Information line, of course.

I think a Large multi-sector view, like in DGP's Alien modules is helpful 
to get the "Big picture" of refts and mains, large insterstellar gov't 
boundries, etc. It would basically just be square dots in a staggered 
grid:

*   *     * 
 * * *   *      * 
* *         * 
 *   * *   *   * 
*     *     *  

One could also use hollow squares to hilite subsector capitals, or barren 
worlds without water, or without gas giants...

>Also, if you wanted to shade or draw a border around a group of worlds,
>would a command syntax like
>in the .sec file:
>!group 3Iy0 1810 1811 2011
>!group 3Iy20 3Iy0 2013
>
>and on the command line to run it
>
>HexPS -border 3Iy0 convex -shade 3Iy20 light hex -default physical -full 
>3Iy20
>
>be reasonable?
>This would draw a border around the y0 third imperium, and shade the third
>imperium worlds as of y20.

Like I said, I never found the time to learn postscript, but if my 
limited knowledge serves, looks reasonable to me! :)

Personally, I would prefer to have shading of hexes optional, I find 
shading just makes things more unreadable and look messy. Why not 
different style borders with different dot patterns or something?

>You specify groups of related worlds in the .sec file, and then on the
>command line, what you want to do with those groups.
>
>I am presently thinking you can do the following:
>border - draw a border around the hexes.  Open borders do not cover the
>edge of the map, while closed ones do.

Allow option for different border weights and/or dot/dash patterns, too.

>shade - shade the hexes with a light grey, dark grey, or black.

I wouldn't use this often, but it's good to have options.

>physical - shows only the physical data, and uses a question mark for the
>world symbol

Personally, I'd prefer a large asterix instead of a question mark. A 
question mark isn't shaped like a world, an asterix shows that there is a 
system (star) there, but it is unexplored.

>blank - shows only a question mark for the entire hex, and prints no data

See above.

>full - show all data for worlds in the group
>
>default - set the default shading or display for worlds.
>
>A convex group includes the hexes between the named ones, while a hex group
>includes only those hexes listed.

Ooooh... this is going to be cool!

>Things it does well:
>hexes without registration errors
>making individual subsector maps out of an aggregate sector file
>appropriate symbols for water, desert, asteroid
>capitalize names of populous worlds
>delete periods at the end of FS names

I've also seen maps which put the population digit to the left of the 
world symbol, and tech level to the right. If this could be an option, 
it's good for finding trade routes as pop and tech are probably the most 
important considerations for volume of trade.

Obviously, it's easier to find the routes without having to look back and 
forth between the map and the data list.

>Things it does not yet do:
>shading
>automatic borders
>specifying which of several symbols corresponds to a given type of base.
>xboat routes
>summary statistics for the sector data file

I can't wait to see this! Will it be platform independent? How would I 
compile such a beast on my Mac? Ooooh... I can imagine making .pdf files 
of sectors and posting them on the web... this will be soooo cool gimmie 
gimmie gimmie

<restraining self>

Ahem. I respectfully request to be a beta tester of your postscript 
stellar cartography system.

===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 20:52:48 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: The need for SPEED!

At 05:56 PM 5/21/97 +0000, you wrote:
><snip>
>
>	During the rapid fire portion of the competition, the shooters fire 5
>rounds at the target in a 6 second time period. Now, I'm not a great
>shot ( Dex of about 8-9, Pistol of about 1), but I managed to hit the
>target 5 out of 5 on most ocassions. However, in T4, this would have
>been impossible. Assuming Dex 8, my target number would have been 2 (8 /
>5 = 1.6, round to 1, + 1 for pistol skill ) on 2.5D6 (range of 25
>yards). Since the lowest possible roll on 2.5D6 is 3, the shot would
>have been impossible. even if you rounded up, the target would be 3,
>which would have made it fairly difficult to hit as many times as I did.
>And this isn't even taking into account the relatively small size of the
>target.
>
><snip>
>
>Ryan
>
>litefoot@feist.com
>
>

Sure you aren't just under estimating your pistol skill and/or dex scores?

Garry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 17:35:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brett Fishburne <bfish@atlantech.net>
Subject: Re: The need for SPEED!

At the risk of giving you a big head, perhaps you underestimate your dexterity!

Brett Fishburne

At 12:56 PM 5/21/97 -0500, Ryan Christensen wrote:
>Hey, all. This is something I noticed las night, and thought I'd toss
>out for public mutilation.
>
>	I recently completed a .22 bullseye league. For those of you not
>familiar with it, it consists of firing a .22 pistol at a target 25
>yards downrange, one handed. The targets are approximately 10 inches
>across.
>
>	During the rapid fire portion of the competition, the shooters fire 5
>rounds at the target in a 6 second time period. Now, I'm not a great
>shot ( Dex of about 8-9, Pistol of about 1), but I managed to hit the
>target 5 out of 5 on most ocassions. However, in T4, this would have
>been impossible. Assuming Dex 8, my target number would have been 2 (8 /
>5 = 1.6, round to 1, + 1 for pistol skill ) on 2.5D6 (range of 25
>yards). Since the lowest possible roll on 2.5D6 is 3, the shot would
>have been impossible. even if you rounded up, the target would be 3,
>which would have made it fairly difficult to hit as many times as I did.
>And this isn't even taking into account the relatively small size of the
>target.
>
>	One fix would be to use the ROF rules from TNE, or maybe base the
>number of unpenalized actions on the controlling attribute (say, half or
>a third, round down?), with a penalty of x per action to all actions
>that turn per extra action?
>
>	Thoughts?
>
>Ryan
>
>litefoot@feist.com
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 14:57:24 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: The need for SPEED!

On Wed, 21 May 1997, Ryan Christensen wrote:

> Hey, all. This is something I noticed las night, and thought I'd toss
> out for public mutilation.

<Snipped, a discussion of taget shooting, and the variance between
Traveller rules and real life observations on hit probabilities>
 
> 	Thoughts?
>
 
Yeah...the target isn't shooting BACK at you..Traveller's rules are geared
for combat, not target practice, so you're applying the wrong skills and
task resolution.  Target pistol shooting is a considerably different skill
than pistol. 

I saw a show once where they demonstrated that some really, really
good target shooters literally make their hearts skip a beat when they
fire, the better to hold their bodies still and their bead on target.

Wow!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 18:04:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: More hard SF ranting

   Hi.

> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 23:12:22 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

>> Sigh.  Yes, it's completely true, the power levels required for Trav ships
>> to maneuver per canon are entirely broken, utterly magical, completely out
>> of touch with reality if one holds to canonical power supply types and
>> outputs.

> Sorry, but the essential error in the above is *not* a failure of hard
> science in the game. It's making the *assumption* that the energy of
> the propulsion system comes from the power plant. 

   This is an assumption that CT makes, but not one that Craig or I
   necessarily make.  According to T4, HEPlaR actually generates power. 
   I think you may have misunderstood what we were getting at.  My point
   was that the drives made either too large a power /load/ OR
   /windfall/ to be hard SF.

> For *any* reaction drive, this is *false*. The drive itself is a highly
> specialized powerplant that takes in the fuel and converts it to
> "power" in the form of a high speed exhaust. The power output of a
> reaction drive is a matter of *extremely* secondary concern.
 
   "The drive itself is a highly specialized powerplant..."  This is the
   crux of my point.  If the drive itself outgenerates the "powerplant"
   by a factor of 1000, you have to wonder why you bother with a
   separate powerplant in the first place.  Just skim off one tenth of
   one percent of the drive output, and you have all the power you need.

> The ship's power plant just provides enough energy to start the engine,
> which then generates enough to keep itself running as well as "throwing
> away" 99.99999% as hot exhaust gases.

   In CT, the implication was that the power plant provided power for
   the M-drive.  In T4, this implication is still clear in the case of
   thruster plates, but this is not what makes CT soft.  The issue is
   NOT the function of the power plant, or the source of the M-drive's
   power, whether external or internal.  It is the availability of the
   power.  In the T4 rules, if you want to power lasers, computers, even
   /airlocks/ and /hulls/ for crying out loud, then you had better make
   sure you have enough generating capacity to do so.  Designing ships
   that can meet these power requirements can be quite tricky, even if
   you use the HEPlaR rules.  But when it comes to making ships move,
   then Trav technolgy suddenly becomes quite adept at generating HUGE
   amounts of power for /or from/ the M-drive.  The scales are different
   by three orders of magnitude.

> A Saturn V had a power output in the gigawatts if not higher. But it
> didn't even *have* a "power plant" in the traveller sense unless you
> count the fuel cells in the Service Module.

   In Trav, starships with power outputs on the order of the Saturn V
   routinely operate for days on end.  This statement has a "hard SF"
   consequence; that consequence is that in Trav, power is really really
   cheap.  But this consequence is not born out in Striker, MT and FFS,
   where power requirements on the order of Megawatts make tight
   restrictions on the design of weapons.

   The weapons of Trav are all very low power when compared to the
   manuever drives.  The consequence of this is well known and beaten to
   death on this list:  Namely, the manuever drive is the most potent
   weapon in Traveller, whether it's used to torch a continent or
   accelerate a relatvistic rock.  There are no defences against these
   agressive uses of the M-drive because there are no rules for combat
   with weapons this powerful. There are no rules for combat with
   weapons this powerful because the weapon design rules themselves
   assume that power restrictions will keep anyone from building them. 
   This assumption is not "Hard SF"; it's a game balance decision.

   So Trav has two types of power, the power used for M-drives and the
   power used for everything else, like weapons.  The two are magically
   incompatable, except around their murky boundaries --- like pushing high
   energy rocks at military targets.  

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:51:14 +1200
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Classic Traveller Question

On Thursday, May 22, 1997 5:00 AM, Niko Wieleba [SMTP:scarab1@pacbell.net] 
wrote:
[snip]
> Where do I find the cost and specifics of adding a fuel refinery to a
> ship for CT?

I believe that CT did not have any Fuel Refineries :(

> Likely it is just something I have overlooked -- or it is lurking
> somewhere I have not found yet.

I don't think it is there at all!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 17:36:50 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: What I like about Traveller.

> Things that I want to see for T4 - bug hunted rules - they are potentially
> the best yet.. fast, but with higher levels of detail available.
> 
> Dom, FWIW

I could not agree more with this statement.

Kenneth. 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 16:38:13 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: World Write Up: Coaise

WOW! Cool idea, and, if they can be contacted peacefully, what a 'Dorsai'
planet!!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 20:28:46 -0400
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: TML Helps Out!  (was FS data - what to do?)

>> > Who else is going to get behind this project?
>> 
>> 	Count me in. Granted, I've only been in since TNE, and don't have
>> access to a lot of the materials, but I'll do what I can.
>
>Wonderful, Ryan.  I'm keeping all of these posts in their own special 
>folder.  I just posted a letter to Courtney Solomon about this 
>project--we are now waiting to see if he will go for it.
>
>Any more volunteers for the TML-FS Project?

I volunteered yesterday.  I'm looking forward to it!

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 20:01:37 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: IG Request for Inputs

The message below seems to have been lost when the TML spontaneously
self-destructed, so I'm reposting it. I originally sent it out Tuesday.

main()
{
   Soapbox.Init();
   Soapbox.Mount();
   Soapbox.Expound("

Friends, Solomani, Countrymen, lend me your ear!

I spoke for a while with Tim Brown at IG today, and one of the subjects was
the M0/FS "issue." (Is that what we call a shark feeding frenzy nowadays,
where people wind up tearing each other up? An "issue?"). Anyway, he's
interested in hearing how you'd like to see errata made available. He asked
me to post a general request for inputs, and asked that you send them to
the game mechanics address IG has set up: mailto:gamehelp@imperiumgames.com.

What he's NOT interested in, and nobody really is, are empty complaints or
attacks. Now, this list has gotten rather hot, people have taken personal
offense, and gone off in a few huffs. But none of this would have happened
if people didn't care and have strong opinions.

If you'd like to make your opinion known, PLEASE:

	1) Take a few deep breaths.
	2) Count to 10
		a) ... in High Vilani.
	3) Write a short, reasoned email explaining how you'd like to see the
errata, and why.
	4) Go back and look at what you wrote in 3, and see if it's possible from
a purely business point of view... giving free copies of the new hardback
to everybody who sends in the cover from the old books might be a wet
dream, but they'd go out of business. And then who'd keep the flame?

Remember, despite the ideal of judging things by their content and not
their cover, a well-written, grammatically correct, easily understood
statement always carries more impact than a hodge-podge, emotionally-laden,
potpourri that may distill down to the same idea.

Also remember that content is important. As we've seen lately, nobody likes
personal attacks. Nobody at IG CHOSE this situation deliberately. Be
creative, be constructive, be cool."

   Soapbox.End();
   Soapbox.Stow();
}

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 01:43:20 -0800
From: Evyn gutierrez <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1357

12 hours of peace and quiet. Without the server being down.
I think it was one of those points in the party that briefly
stops talking. And boy did we need it.

As for A gathering of the TML west, I sugjested June 1st around
noon. It noon didn't work, so how 'bouts some time latter that day?

Evyn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 01:54:22 -0800
From: Evyn gutierrez <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1358

From: Ryan Christensen wrote:

        During the rapid fire portion of the competition, the shooters
fire 5
rounds at the target in a 6 second time period. Now, I'm not a great
shot ( Dex of about 8-9, Pistol of about 1), but I managed to hit the
target 5 out of 5 on most ocassions. However, in T4, this would have
been impossible. Assuming Dex 8, my target number would have been 2 (8 /
5 = 1.6, round to 1, + 1 for pistol skill ) on 2.5D6 (range of 25
yards). Since the lowest possible roll on 2.5D6 is 3, the shot would
have been impossible. even if you rounded up, the target would be 3,
which would have made it fairly difficult to hit as many times as I did.
And this isn't even taking into account the relatively small size of the
target.

        One fix would be to use the ROF rules from TNE, 

Yes the tne rules worked well that way. 

Evyn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 22:17:22 -0500
From: Robert Beck <beck@mail.all-net.net>
Subject: Re: Geonee, Suerrat, and First Numbered Fleets

At 08:14 PM 5/21/97 +0200, Carlos wrote:

>        I've recently noticed an interesting bit. Way back in time, GDW
>released the Rebellion Sourcebook, by Marc W. Miller. There, we can found a
>map with all the numbered subsector fleets of the 3I. The first 4 fleets are
>around Sylea, which fits. But the 5,6, and 7, are placed in very interesting
>places. One is in Shiwonee/Massilia, where the Geonee homeworld is. Antoher
>is in Ilelish, exactly where the Suerrat are. And the third (number 5, IIRC)
>is in subsector A/Dagudashaag (I've no idea about what special could be
there).

An interesting side note to what Carlos said pertains to the 1st Fleet.
Apparently, the designation of the 1st Fleet was held by one of the fleets
participating in one of the later Frontier Wars, but some Emperor whose
name escapes me renamed the fleet around Capital as the 1st Fleet. It was
mentioned in one of the GDW MT supplements. I'm afraid my references are
shoddy, but the fact that some fleets were only recently numbered or
re-numbered indicates a later interest in the other human race homeworlds,
wouldn't you say?

Rob.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 97 23:06:09 -0400
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Call for Playtesters

As those of you who follow the IG website are no doubt aware, a new
edition of _Fire, Fusion,and Steel_ is due for release next month.  Dave
Golden and I have been absent from the TML and Beta lists because we've
been busy writing it.

As the deadline rapidly approaches, we could use some help playtesting
the new book.  We're looking for people who will have the time and
energy to actually design some vehicles, starships, weapons, and other
hardware over the next few days, and be able to give us some pretty
immediate feedback (say, by sometime Monday).

Yes; I'm aware this is short notice; I'd prefer more time too, but
if we want to get this thing into print, we've got a (far too short) 
deadline to meet.  To participate, you'll need to be able to read
Microsoft Word '95 or Adobe Acrobat files, and ideally be able to
download them with a Web browser (this is to save time in converting
files; the more time I spend converting, the less time I'll have to
make the design systems better).


Again, we're looking for some people who are ready to do some heavy-duty
designing this weekend, and report back to us where things seem to be
broken.  As compensation, about all we can promise is the chance to see your
name in print, and the possibilty that the designs may be selected for an
upcoming supplement.

IF you're interested in participating, please e-mail me at:

	wildstar@io.com

NOTE: this is NOT the reply address for this message; if you simply reply
  to this message (directly, or on the Beta or TML lists) you'll be ignored,
  since I'm not reading most of my general e-mail while I'm working on the
  FF&S project.


Guy "wildstar" Garnett

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In the Far Future

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 23:10:07 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: More homebrew combat rules...

	After getting seriously inspired by Kenneth's combat rules post
(most of which I adopted on the spot and incorporated into this combat
rules handout I'm preparing for my players), I decided that decided that
I'd float the following tweaks past the list.  These all assume use of KB
v2.0 and Glenn Grant's hit location table and Eris's movement rules.  The
modifications to the Shotgun rules are to better reflect the effects of
firing a spreading cone of shot, and the Long Range KE  and Pistol attacks
mods are to prevent that ridiculous 1,500 meter Body Pistol shot mentioned
in the T4 rulebook.  I've also decided to have movement status affect
effectiveness of ranged attacks.  Comments puhleeze!


	Movement Statuses

Stationary: Permits Aimed fire.

Crawling: Maximum of (STR+DEX)X0.25 meters travelled per round.  Aimed fire
permitted at (weapon's positive DM)/2 rounded down.

Walking: Maximum of (STR+DEX)X0.5 meters travelled per round.  -1 DM on
ranged attacks.  No aimed fire permitted.

Jogging: Maximum of (STR+DEX)X0.75 meters travelled per round.  -3 DM on
ranged attacks.

Running: Maximum of (STR+DEX) meters travelled per round.  -6 DM on ranged
attacks.

Sprinting: Maximum of (STR+DEX)X2 meters travelled per round.  -9 DM on
ranged attacks.


	Attacks

Aimed fire: Attacker's motion status must be Stationary or Crawling.

Shotgun: +2 DM to hit, +4 if barrel is sawed-off or short.  Will do 1/2
damage at range band beyond its optimal range, none at next range band.

Reloading: Takes one round for weapons that reload via clip, tube magazine,
or speedloader.  Weapons reloaded with individual rounds (e.g. revolvers,
pump shotguns) reload at the rate of 2 rounds per turn.


	Modifiers

Target is walking or jogging: -1 DM.

Target is running: -2 DM.

Target is sprinting: -3 DM.

Long Range KE attacks: At Long range, all slugthrowers suffer a -1D damage
die penalty, increasing by 1D for every subsequent band.  Body Pistols and
all short-barreled pistols suffer this penalty beginning at Medium range.

Long Range Pistol attacks: All pistols without shoulder stocks suffer a -3
DM at Medium range and a -4 DM for every range band thereafter to hit.

R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1359
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, May 23 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1360



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: TML Helps Out!  (was FS data - what to do?)
Re: TAS Question
Re: TML Helps Out!  (was FS data - what to do?)
Re: [Off topic] Trying to contact John H Bogan Jr
Re: The need for SPEED!
Re: Casualties
Welding in space
Re: Traveller navigator
Re: Public Apology to Kenneth
Re: The need for SPEED!
Re: First numbered fleets
re : The need for speed
Re: More homebrew combat rules...
Re: The need for SPEED!
RE: Classic Traveller Question
RE: Classic Traveller Question
Newbie Lurker's last post :)
Re: More hard SF ranting
Re: The need for SPEED!
Re: The need for SPEED!
Re: TML Helps Out!  (was FS data - what to do?)
TML-FS Project
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1357

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 23:39:02 -0500
From: "vanya" <vanya@partyline.net>
Subject: Re: TML Helps Out!  (was FS data - what to do?)

> From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
> >> > Who else is going to get behind this project?
> >> 
> >> 	Count me in. Granted, I've only been in since TNE, and don't have
> >> access to a lot of the materials, but I'll do what I can.
> >
> >Wonderful, Ryan.  I'm keeping all of these posts in their own special 
> >folder.  I just posted a letter to Courtney Solomon about this 
> >project--we are now waiting to see if he will go for it.
> >
> >Any more volunteers for the TML-FS Project?
> 
> I volunteered yesterday.  I'm looking forward to it!
> 
> Scott

I will flagrantly violate the accepted norms of this mailing list and say

Ooh!  Ooh!  Me too!


- -Vanya                                         UPP-8D9B85
Traveller ---------------- Science Fiction Adventure in the Far Future
Meyers-Briggs personality type:ENTJ          | vanya@partyline.net
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with." | dmoody@bridge.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 23:36:25 -0500
From: "vanya" <vanya@partyline.net>
Subject: Re: TAS Question

> From: Andrew Boulton <aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk>
> <<   If you are a real cynic about _who_
> decides to amber zone a world you could assume that if & when TAS is
> kicked off a planet they promptly go to their good friends in the
> Imperial government & get the planet amber zoned. (Unspoken premise
> "Anyone who would kick _us_ out must be barbarians"). >>
> 
> Aren't Amber Zones assigned by TAS?

Yes, but after the fact.  It seems that the travel zones (red, amber,
green) are set by TAS in response to something happening on the planet.
From MT ImpEncyc pg 42:

Travel Zone:  ... As a service to spacefarers, the Traveller's Aid Society
publishes travel Zone classifications...

and pg 36:

Red Zone: The Traveller's Aid Society travel zone classification for a
nation, world, or system which is dangerous to travellers.  In general, the
imposition of a red zone classification indicates the location is
quarantined, interdicted by higher authority, or at war...

So, the TAS travel zones come from the condition of the planet.  I.E. a
planet is considered a red zone because it is interdicted; it is not
interdicted when the TAS declares it a red zone. Just because TAS declares
a planet read doesn't mean that the ImpNavy is going to interdict it. The
travel zones are a 'civilian shorthand' for what the authorities (read 3I)
decide a planet should be.

- -Vanya                                         UPP-8D9B85
Traveller ---------------- Science Fiction Adventure in the Far Future
Meyers-Briggs personality type:ENTJ          | vanya@partyline.net
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with." | dmoody@bridge.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 00:20:58 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: TML Helps Out!  (was FS data - what to do?)

Quoth Kenneth Bearden:
> Any more volunteers for the TML-FS Project?

Sure, I'll throw my hat in the ring.  And, since I've already started some
work on the Suerrat, I'll even volunteer to help with / be responsible for
/ look over Ilelish sector.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 02:59:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: John H Bogan Jr <jbogan@pop.pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: [Off topic] Trying to contact John H Bogan Jr

At 08:52 PM 5/19/97 +0100, Liam McCauley wrote:
>The subject says it all.  Sorry for wasting everyone else's time.  Move
>along now... nothing to see here...
>
>John,
>
>Please email me with your email address.

jbogan@pipeline.com
>
>Cheers,
>Liam
>-- 
>NerfHerder@Enterprise.net
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 11:02:09 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: The need for SPEED!

>Yeah, none of the targets were moving or back shooting at you. ; )
>
>--/tauman

Then we should have DMs for moving/nonmoving neutral/backshooting right?
The combat rules are of course seriously broken but so are most rules
regarding this. Most rules bake fog of war, fear etc into lowered hit
propabilities which always make it hard on the ref when someone is trying
to shoot an arrow with a message through a window or some similar noncombat
action.

Combat systems should be realistic because the players can rely on its
effects mimicking the real world(tm)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:57:36 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Casualties

>No, energy weapons deliver full damage to the target as well as
>explosions. The three dice rule is to simulate 'through-and-through'
>wounds of the kind of high energy projectiles that cause, gauss rifle
>rounds for instance, more than three dice of damage.  It's a poor
>approximation of the problem, IMHO, but that's what the rules state.

They do not! If they penetrate lets say an armour jacket and hurt the guy
inside why doesn't it deposit all it's energy to the jacket. What if I'm
standing behind the guy. Will I get hurt or does the laserbeam "know" that
it should deposit all its energy in the intended target but not the armour.
Sounds like a Droyne of psionic lasers.

This is how real world(tm) works but for the crude rule in T4 you're right
- - use it only with bullets and perhaps grenade fragments.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 11:36:03 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Welding in space

I believe the topic of welding in space may have come up before and be
useful to enough Traveller refs that I trust the following will be of
interest:

The New Scientist 19 April 1997 has an entire 3 page article devoted to
the subject:
There's a Hole in My Spacecraft.  By Philip Chien.
New Scientist 19 April 1997, Vol 154, no.2078, pp.42-44

The article also includes a photo of NASA's space welding tool (looks a
bit like a an oversized hair dryer or a sixties laser pistol).

Then in the 17th May 1997 issue there are two follow up letters one of
which refers to a paper published on the subject by H. Wroe in the British
Journal of Applied Physics vo 9, p.488 some 40 years ago.  (The letter
writer, one H. Wroe, doesn't give a full citation).

The blurb from the first article might inspire some:

"Just one slip could destroy a billion-dollar mission, or, worse, spell a
horrific end for some poor astrotechnician.  ...reports on the perils of
welding in space."

I did note one point that mentioned cool-down times will be much longer
than those on Earth, as there's no convection currents to carry away the
heat.  Still, under shuttle safety rules they expect their experiment's
temperature to fall to below 178 deg C within 20 minutes.

Try not to get your vacc suit too close.

HTH

tc
timothy.collinson@solent.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 07:38:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: CMcknight@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller navigator

Andy,

I had no problems getting to the site using ftp.  The web page appears to be
broken.  The ftp address is:

    ftp.best.com/pub.j/jdavies

BTW, none of the .EXEs I tried worked, but there was a setup program with
several other parts there that may be needed as well.

Chuck McKnight
cmcknigh@gte.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 13:39:37 +0200
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Re: Public Apology to Kenneth

At 14:38 22/05/97 -0600, you wrote:
>On 1997-05-22 10:26 thus spake Scott Ellsworth:
>
>>On that note - I missed all letters sent on the list from about 3 PM PST
>>Wed. to early this morning, so if anyone other than Leonard Erickson
>>replied to my request for a subsector list, or to any of my innumerable
>>requests for suggestions on what you would like in a program to turn DGP,
>>IG, or FS data into a good sector map, please email me.
>
>I missed them too. Does anyone know what happened?

Yup, same thing! Seems to be general to TML
- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr 
   Mailto:marben@worldnet.net (Week-end only!)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 07:32:55 -0400
From: Nikodemus <tauman@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: The need for SPEED!

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 21 May 1997, Ryan Christensen wrote:
> 
> > Hey, all. This is something I noticed las night, and thought I'd toss
> > out for public mutilation.
> 
> <Snipped, a discussion of taget shooting, and the variance between
> Traveller rules and real life observations on hit probabilities>
> 
> >       Thoughts?
> >
> 
> Yeah...the target isn't shooting BACK at you..Traveller's rules are geared
> for combat, not target practice, so you're applying the wrong skills and
> task resolution.  Target pistol shooting is a considerably different skill
> than pistol.
> 
> I saw a show once where they demonstrated that some really, really
> good target shooters literally make their hearts skip a beat when they
> fire, the better to hold their bodies still and their bead on target.
> 
> Wow!
> 
> Bruce Johnson
> University of Arizona
> College of Pharmacy
> Information Technology Group
> 
> Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

I think I saw that same show.  Those fast-draw shooters were absolutely
amazing in their speed and accuracy.  I remember someone asking what
the result would be if any of these shooters were matched against some
of the legendary shooters of the old west.  His reply was basically that
in a target shoot, they'd win, but with someone shooting back it's a
completely different situation.  Accuracy goes away very guickly when
nerves kick in.  As for Traveller combat modifications for moving 
targets, etc. I would say they're probably built in.  If a player is
shooting at an immobile target that isn't shooting back, decrease the
level of difficulty by one or something similar.

- --/tauman

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:09:20 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: First numbered fleets

Carlos wrote:
>        I've recently noticed an interesting bit. Way back in time, GDW
>released the Rebellion Sourcebook, by Marc W. Miller. There, we can found a
>map with all the numbered subsector fleets of the 3I. The first 4 fleets are
>around Sylea, which fits. But the 5,6, and 7, are placed in very interesting
>places. One is in Shiwonee/Massilia, where the Geonee homeworld is. Antoher
>is in Ilelish, exactly where the Suerrat are. And the third (number 5, IIRC)
>is in subsector A/Dagudashaag (I've no idea about what special could be
>there).

I too have had a look at those fleets to see if I could extrapolate some
historical tidbits from them, but I realized that the way fleets are moved
about (and even, perhaps, renumbered) from time to time makes it impossible
to draw any firm conclusions from their position in 1116. IMO, of course.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 22:29:58 -0700
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au>
Subject: re : The need for speed

Ryan :

Your points about speed shooting on a range are true, but irrelevant.

T4 (and most other rules sets) are written for people who are getting shot at,
not just people who are calm, relaxed etc on a target range.

The figures I've seen for rounds expended vs hits in real wars are pretty horrific
e.g. 10K rounds/casualty for small arms in WW2 ... worse for Vietnam.

Ian Whitchuch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:29:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brett Fishburne <bfish@atlantech.net>
Subject: Re: More homebrew combat rules...

At 11:10 PM 5/22/97 -0400, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:

     <snipped Intro>

>	Movement Statuses
>
     <snipped movement details>

Missing is how long a person could move at this rate or any side effects of
moving at a high rate which would increase fatigue -- or am I missing
something obvious?

>	Attacks
>
>Aimed fire: Attacker's motion status must be Stationary or Crawling.
>
>Shotgun: +2 DM to hit, +4 if barrel is sawed-off or short.  Will do 1/2
>damage at range band beyond its optimal range, none at next range band.
>
>Reloading: Takes one round for weapons that reload via clip, tube magazine,
>or speedloader.  Weapons reloaded with individual rounds (e.g. revolvers,
>pump shotguns) reload at the rate of 2 rounds per turn.

I think that if a PC reloads two rounds into a revolver there should be a
likelihood that the revolver is not set to fire the two rounds just loaded.
Perhaps there is a maximum((10-pistol skill),1)% chance that the proper
chamber is not under the firing pin or something like that.  I think that
reloading a revolver or shotgun should also take longer if you are running
or sprinting...

     <modifiers snipped>

Just some thoughts,

Brett Fishburne

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 08:40:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brett Fishburne <bfish@atlantech.net>
Subject: Re: The need for SPEED!

Perhaps a more reasonable approach would be to have rules for using weapons
in non-combat situations.  While this doesn't disagree with what you have
said, this suggestion does not suggest that the combat rules be rewritten
(flawed as they may be) but that some ancillary rules be developed to allow
the non-combat situation you desire.  As a ref I have always made it easier
to shoot a weapon (of any type) in a non-combat situation.  Generally I have
allowed die modifiers which make the effort relatively easy for an
experienced player.  Perhaps this is not the best solution, but I'm trying
to forward the plot.  Frankly, non of my story lines have every REQUIRED the
use of a weapon in a non-combat role, so it really doesn't matter to me
whether or not the effort is successful and I may roll a die and ignore the
result stating success.

An example of where the success or failure is important include a person in
the room the arrow is going into.  In this case, I need to know if the arrow
went into the room and what it hit when it got there!  I usually consider
the likelihood that someone inside the room has a chance to be hit based on
the volume of the room accessable from the window and a flat percentage that
the person could be in that volume.  This is particularly true if the PCs
don't aim for the ceiling!  While it has been a long time since this has
come up, the PCs in my games consistently aim for the ceiling when shooting
arrows through windows (always AD&D, never Traveller).

Unless there was gambling going on, the need for accuracy in Traveller when
someone does target shooting is non-existent.  In that case, I may use the
PCs gambling capability to evaluate his ability to accurately size up his
opponent and let that drive the results.

Brett Fishburne

At 11:02 AM 5/23/97 +0100, Anders Backman wrote:
>>Yeah, none of the targets were moving or back shooting at you. ; )
>>
>>--/tauman
>
>Then we should have DMs for moving/nonmoving neutral/backshooting right?
>The combat rules are of course seriously broken but so are most rules
>regarding this. Most rules bake fog of war, fear etc into lowered hit
>propabilities which always make it hard on the ref when someone is trying
>to shoot an arrow with a message through a window or some similar noncombat
>action.
>
>Combat systems should be realistic because the players can rely on its
>effects mimicking the real world(tm)
>
>
>/Anders Backman
>Aniware AB
>anders.backman@aniware.se
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 97 09:55:19 EDT
From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Subject: RE: Classic Traveller Question

- --- twas written:
[snip]
> Where do I find the cost and specifics of adding a fuel refinery to a
> ship for CT?

I believe that CT did not have any Fuel Refineries :(
- --- end of quote ---
Hmmm...are you talking about refineries beyond what is required for the
collecting ship? while I recall that there were mods for using dirty fuel,
wasn't there some implication that each ship had limited proccess available to
remove (some) impurities? Perhaps I read into that and extrapolated that for
any vessel equipped to skim on a regular basis would have a means of filtering
dust, old hubcaps and ancient artifacts out of their hydrogen...

Now if you're planning on skimming madly and becoming a floating
refinery..well, fudge one up! ;-D

- -j

------------------------------

Date: 23 May 97 09:55:19 EDT
From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Subject: RE: Classic Traveller Question

- --- twas written:
[snip]
> Where do I find the cost and specifics of adding a fuel refinery to a
> ship for CT?

I believe that CT did not have any Fuel Refineries :(
- --- end of quote ---
Hmmm...are you talking about refineries beyond what is required for the
collecting ship? while I recall that there were mods for using dirty fuel,
wasn't there some implication that each ship had limited proccess available to
remove (some) impurities? Perhaps I read into that and extrapolated that for
any vessel equipped to skim on a regular basis would have a means of filtering
dust, old hubcaps and ancient artifacts out of their hydrogen...

Now if you're planning on skimming madly and becoming a floating
refinery..well, fudge one up! ;-D

- -j

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:34:40 +0100
From: "Paolo Falco, Explorer" <Falco@aLMa.iT>
Subject: Newbie Lurker's last post :)

Hello. I have been lurking for an ENTIRE week (WoW!) on the list, and 
sadly, I won't be allowed to lurk anymore, because my being in the 
Italian Army will prevent me from being able do download huge 
digest mails, and even if I will try to download the archives every 
weekend, you cannot count on it, so you can freely ignore this mail 
if you want :) 

This post comes from the fact that I think some sort of feedback 
should be given to ANY activity, even from newbie lurkers like me, or 
soon ALL activities will cease, which is an Anarco-Lemming principle, 
but I won't bore you with that.

Well,  have been on many lists in my life (and in some I still am), 
but I have never felt so wonderfully overwhelmed by the sense of 
continuity that comes from being on a list where someone can put as 
his sig "Played T since 1977". It is a wonderful thing, and even if 
the distinction between "canon" and "Not Canon" is anarco-lemmingly 
ludicrous, since everything is canon as soon as you are prepared to 
accept it, the fact that there are players who have played 20 years 
makes them so close to _actually_ being in the world where thay have 
played, that it is almost unique in the world of RpGs. And this is 
not only true for the veterans, but also of the newbies like me, who 
passed 10 years knowing Traveller existed yet had never 
actually bought it. Well, we still share that sense of continuity, 
and we sill _are_ actually part of the huge, wonderful universe we 
have been playing in. I still think T4 is broken, even after having 
GMed it only for some months, but what the heck, rules can be 
changed, atmospheres cannot, and the THUDD thing is one of the 
closest things to perfection you can expect from a mailing list, even 
with the flame-against-sh*tty-IG thread going on.

Sorry for the interruption, if you have any communication let me know 
privately. I can still read individual mails, now and then.

Captain Pippo Falko closing.

PS - Is there any IG rule against alternate Character Record Sheets?
I have just posted one I really like on my homepa and they don't pay 
me enough in the Army to be able to go to court!

Captain Pippo Falko closing for real this time.

- -------------------------------------------------------------------
 Paolo Falco | "Death is a passage, yes, but it is enough to kill 
  (explorer) | you!"              (C. Guzzanti as Queelo's Messiah)                 
- -------------------------------------------------------------------
   The Ironbound Section. Everything you wanted and more.   
           http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/2717

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 09:25:41 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: More hard SF ranting

At 06:04 pm 05/22/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>   This is an assumption that CT makes, but not one that Craig or I
>   necessarily make.  According to T4, HEPlaR actually generates power. 

	HUH? That ain't EVEN right, or it's not supposed to be right. And if
that's what the rules say or imply, they need fixing ASAP.

	Checking the abominable "Starships" ... p71" Note the power *required*
from the HEPlaR Drives table and make sure it's included in your power
requirements when you select a power plant. The prices and volumes may seem
like a bargain compared to other drives, but remember, you still need a
power plant." (Emphasis added by me)

	HEPlar does NOT generate power.

>   "The drive itself is a highly specialized powerplant..."  This is the
>   crux of my point.  If the drive itself outgenerates the "powerplant"
>   by a factor of 1000, you have to wonder why you bother with a
>   separate powerplant in the first place.  Just skim off one tenth of
>   one percent of the drive output, and you have all the power you need.

	Because the power output by reaction drives isn't in a useable form, and
requires much more fuel per MW to boot. You can get 2MW from a 100 tonne
thrust fusion plant. That 2MW has a volume of 11m^3, and requires 0.49 m^3
of fuel per hour. A TL12 power plant with a volume of only 12.5m^3 produces
25MW, and requires only 3.75m^3 of fuel per YEAR.


>> A Saturn V had a power output in the gigawatts if not higher. But it
>> didn't even *have* a "power plant" in the traveller sense unless you
>> count the fuel cells in the Service Module.
>
>   In Trav, starships with power outputs on the order of the Saturn V
>   routinely operate for days on end.  This statement has a "hard SF"

	Again, you're mistaking the "equivalent power output" of a chemical
rocket, which CAN'T be used effectively to run other systems, with the
USEFUL power output of a true power plant. You can't just magically convert
thrust into power. You can tap off it, yes, but that's not very efficient.

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 11:05:34 -0500
From: Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com>
Subject: Re: The need for SPEED!

Nikodemus wrote:
> 
> Yeah, none of the targets were moving or back shooting at you. ; )
> 
> --/tauman
	Yeah, but in T4, all the charcters are assumed to be badass enough that
the thought of all taht lead/photons/plasma flying their way will have
no effect whatsoever on their ability to render the individuals rude
enough to insult them in such a manner ... less than whole. Can you say
"Rambo Syndrome"? I knew you could. :-)

Ryan
litefoot@feist.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 11:26:07 -0500
From: Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com>
Subject: Re: The need for SPEED!

Garry Ward wrote:

> Sure you aren't just under estimating your pistol skill and/or dex scores?
> 
> Garry

	I wish, but okay. Lets assume a Dex 10 and Pistols 2 - That gives us a
TN of 4 on 2.5D6, which at least makes the shot possible. It doesn't,
however, realistically model the probability of what happened. I agree
with what other people have posted, inasmuch as combat is much different
hat target shooting, and if we assume the stress of battle is subsumed
in the low TNs that come out through the multiple actions rule, then
everything actually works pretty well. Thanks for the thoughts, guys.

	Next situation though: melee combat. Having done martial arts for a few
years, I know that alot of such HTH combats (the ones I've seen anyway)
involve flurries of attacks back and forth. Maybe we should implement a
Martial Arts skill, and let the users thereof use the fencing rule for
counterattacks. 

	One side note - it is possible for an unarmed combatant to block an
attack by an armed opponent. They just have to get inside the reach of
the weapon and block the arm/other manipulative member swinging said
weapon. This would probably involve using your Defensive pool to cause
the attacker to miss, then rolling your own attack, now that they're
exposed.

Ryan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 11:58:14 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: TML Helps Out!  (was FS data - what to do?)

> Quoth Kenneth Bearden:
> > Any more volunteers for the TML-FS Project?
> 
> Sure, I'll throw my hat in the ring.  And, since I've already started some
> work on the Suerrat, I'll even volunteer to help with / be responsible for
> / look over Ilelish sector.

Wonderful, wonderful.  I think we are getting close to the number of 
people we need.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 11:58:13 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: TML-FS Project

OK, we've got 7 people for the TML-FS Project.

Myself
Michael Bailey
Joseph "Chepe" Lockett
Ryan Christensen
Scott Nolan
Timothy Collinson
Vanya


We need at least one more person (there are 8 sectors in FS), but we 
could use 9+ more to split up the work--a sector is a big place!

We are still waiting to hear from IG about this project, but are 
there any more volunteers?

Kenneth

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:24:37 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1357

At 01:43 AM 1/1/97 -0800, you wrote:
>12 hours of peace and quiet. Without the server being down.
>I think it was one of those points in the party that briefly
>stops talking. And boy did we need it.
>
>As for A gathering of the TML west, I sugjested June 1st around
>noon. It noon didn't work, so how 'bouts some time latter that day?

Saturday would be much better for me.. also, we don't have a car, so if it
could be on this side of the bay for ease of transit (unless you are
proposing something close to BART)

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|   about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|   Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|     -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin" |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1360
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 24 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1361



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Starport Question
Re: The need for SPEED!
High Guard Logistics
Re: FS/M:0 project
Ancient Artifice:  Jumpspace
Re: TML-FS Project
Re: FS/M:0 project
Re: The need for SPEED!
Re: re : The need for speed
Re: TML-FS Project
Jump Troops
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1360
Re: TML-FS Project
Missile stats?
Re: FS/M:0 project
Meeting of the Minds
Re:Ken'sCombat tweaks
Re: Missile stats?
Re: The need for SPEED!
RE: Jump Troops

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:22:49 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Starport Question

At 05:33 PM 5/20/97 +0000, Kenneth wrote:

>I've read someplace (and I need to find where) about the distinction 
>between orbital starports and downports.
>
>It was something like--Class A and B starports on worlds are 
>considered to have both orbital and ground instellations whereas 
>class C and lower ports are only downports.

IMTU, C ports can have orbital elements, but they won't be anything special.


- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|   about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|   Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|     -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin" |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 09:56:21 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: The need for SPEED!

At 02:57 PM 5/22/97 -0700, Bruce wrote:

>I saw a show once where they demonstrated that some really, really
>good target shooters literally make their hearts skip a beat when they
>fire, the better to hold their bodies still and their bead on target.

It's called the pulminary pause, you learn to hold until your lungs are
empty and you heart rate is slowed to the point where there is a noticble
rest between beats.  At this point, you are as still as any human gets
outside of death.  When shooting at 800m+ this can be vital.

- --
+-------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|*************************************************|
|   "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|   about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|   Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|     -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin" |
+-------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 20:04:47 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: High Guard Logistics

A while back, someone mentioned that they were after tonnage/cost for
supplies for a TCS campaign - I found a reference in an old adventure as
1dt supplies costing 50KCr, and lasting 285 man-weeks (or if you want to be
PC 'person-weeks"). FWIW.

Dom

- --------------- Dom Mooney (dom@cybergoths.u-net.com)---------------
"The fall of Empire, Gentlemen, is a massive thing, however, and not easily
fought. It is dictated by a rising bureaucracy, a receding initiative, a
freezing of caste, a damming of curiousity - a hundred other factors."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Hari Seldon - Azimov's "Foundation"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 15:59:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Re: FS/M:0 project

(A small black disc shaped ship exits jumpsapce into TML space, seeing that 
things are clear, it sends a transmission.)

Greetings, This is The Commander.

This thread has interested me:

>Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 11:58:13 +0000
>From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
>Subject: TML-FS Project

>OK, we've got 7 people for the TML-FS Project.

>Myself
>Michael Bailey
>Joseph "Chepe" Lockett
>Ryan Christensen
>Scott Nolan
>Timothy Collinson
>Vanya


>We need at least one more person (there are 8 sectors in FS), but we
>could use 9+ more to split up the work--a sector is a big place!

>We are still waiting to hear from IG about this project, but are
>there any more volunteers?

>Kenneth

Interesting, how are the sectors to be redone?  I am willing to volunteer 
myself, my time and my "1100 to Year 0 Timewarp System". :)

Commander X

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:55:48 -0700
From: Jeff Cornish <JCornish@appiangraphics.com>
Subject: Ancient Artifice:  Jumpspace

The topic of jumpspace and FTL drives are always a hotly contraversial
subject at any gathering of Physicists.  Currently it looks as if the
theory of "High Dimensional J-Space" has won out over all other
competing theories, including Tri-stranded Tachyon Streams, and the once
popular Shguirii Para-Dimensional hypothesis.

It is not my intention to try to overturn any of these theories, but
merely to suggest an alternative that fits some of the data observed in
not only our field, but other academic spheres too.

To be specific, I refer to the 'Grandfather' hypothesis that is popular
around some xeno-archeological circles currently.  Supposedly, a
semi-mythical figure, 'Grandfather,' and his offspring created
innumerable near-miraculous artifacts, cities and even intrastellar
sites before destroying themselves in a millinia long intersteller
conflict.

The 'Grandfather' figure apparently had not only the capability to
create wonders with normal matter, but the space-time continuum also--as
evidence by the 'rosette' system in the Vargr extents.  Recent detailed
densiometer surveys have discovered a curious fact--there seems to be
some space missing between the worlds in the rosette.

Initially it was interpreted as a sensor calibration flaw, but after
three years of painstaking work by my collegue, Dr. Almato-Hsu, it is
clear that that is not the reason, and it explains the curious stability
of the system.

A naturally occuring rosette would be disrupted by the mutual
gravitational influence of the rosette'd worlds and other bodies in the
system within 10 to 100 MegaYear (10,000,000 to 100,000,000).  The
Rosette has been in existance for at least three times that.

Dr. Almato-Hsu's team discovered, to quote expedition technician Sreit
W'godw, "A hemline in the fabric of space."  On enhanced sensor readings
it appears as exactly that, down to a very distinct 'zig-zag' pattern.
Probes crossing this 200,000 meter 'hem' report anomolous virtual
particle counts, gravimetric shear force and quantum electro-weak
distortion.

The leading theory is that these are Ancient artifacts that have
'gathered up' pockets of space around themselves, but have not
completely severed thier connections to normal space.

You will note that I said 'artifacts.'  So far six have been discovered,
one pair in the space between each pair of the rosette worlds.
Essentially these are 'space governers,' modifying the gravitational
force between each of the worlds, keeping the rosette from disrupting
itself.

Why the Ancients didn't use massive complexes of contragravity
technology on these worlds, we cannot say.

However, I now address the subject of my paper, Jump Space, and it's
relation to this discovery.  On further calculation of the possible
configurations of the space-time manifold around each of the
'Governers,' I have determined that these artifacts have not just
'pocketed' themselves, but have embedded themselves in the fabric of
what is commonly called 'J-Space'.

Also, I must point out that Jump-Space, although a complex medium to
travel through is preferencial.  Nearly every possible route through
jumpspace leads to a star with terrestrial planets.  A popular way for
astrogators to visualize jumpspace is by the use of 2-dimensional maps!
And finally,

This leads me to hypothesized that Jump-Space is an artifact, created by
the Ancients, to enable convienient interstellar transit.  Much as the
Roadgrid here on Sylea enables rapid transit between place to place if a
vehicle has the appropriate equipment, Jumpspace requires a jumpdrive.

- -000-

Jeffrey Cornish

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:10:46 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: TML-FS Project

I may be able to help, but I want to get the subsector mapper finished
first.  I have gotten a lot of interest, and I want to know I can print the
results of the maps before mucking about with the data.

I do like the idea of the project, though.  Let me know if you still need
people in a few days.
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:15:18 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: FS/M:0 project

At 03:59 PM 5/23/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Interesting, how are the sectors to be redone?  I am willing to volunteer 
>myself, my time and my "1100 to Year 0 Timewarp System". :)

BTW, I suggest that as long as you are redoing the data, you should at
least consider breaking the 1100 sectors judiciously, so that there are
fewer tainted atmosphere worlds with bazillions of people next door to
empty earthlike worlds.

I would not mind if the 1100 data was fiddled with in the process, just to
make the y0 data make sense.  In fact, this might be a good idea, as there
are large signs that nobody at DGP actually looked at the data in some of
those sectors.

Just a thought, and one that I have been working on a way to automate, but
I want my maps first, darn it, before I try to fix the data under them!
Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 16:32:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Douglas <douglas@*teleport.com>
Subject: Re: The need for SPEED!

On Fri, 23 May 1997, Anders Backman wrote:

> >Yeah, none of the targets were moving or back shooting at you. ; )
> >
> >--/tauman
> 
> Then we should have DMs for moving/nonmoving neutral/backshooting right?
> The combat rules are of course seriously broken but so are most rules
> regarding this. Most rules bake fog of war, fear etc into lowered hit
> propabilities which always make it hard on the ref when someone is trying
> to shoot an arrow with a message through a window or some similar noncombat
> action.
> 
> Combat systems should be realistic because the players can rely on its
> effects mimicking the real world(tm)
> 
> 
> /Anders Backman
> Aniware AB
> anders.backman@aniware.se
> 
> 

I'm at work, so I don't have the books with me, but I seem to recall that
'aimed fire' gets a significant DM, doesn't it?

(sigh)  I don't get into the shooting combat rules very much, I'm
afraid...

- --------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
                                              -Merlin

douglas@teleport.com
http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas\

MCSE: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation, 
      Exchange Server, Basic Networking, TCP/IP
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 18:03:03 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: re : The need for speed

At 10:29 pm 05/23/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Ryan :
>
>Your points about speed shooting on a range are true, but irrelevant.
>
>T4 (and most other rules sets) are written for people who are getting shot
at,
>not just people who are calm, relaxed etc on a target range.
>
>The figures I've seen for rounds expended vs hits in real wars are pretty
horrific
>e.g. 10K rounds/casualty for small arms in WW2 ... worse for Vietnam.

	FWIW I've always given additional diff mod bonuses for "ideal" conditions,
beyond just the aimed shot, etc. No distractions: -1 diff level. Plenty of
time to set up shot: -1 diff level. etc.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 18:00:42 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: TML-FS Project

At 11:58 am 05/23/97 +0000, you wrote:
>OK, we've got 7 people for the TML-FS Project.
>
>Myself
>Michael Bailey
>Joseph "Chepe" Lockett
>Ryan Christensen
>Scott Nolan
>Timothy Collinson
>Vanya
>
>
>We need at least one more person (there are 8 sectors in FS), but we 
>could use 9+ more to split up the work--a sector is a big place!
>
>We are still waiting to hear from IG about this project, but are 
>there any more volunteers?

	Just as a piece of advice, you may get a quicker response by calling
rather than depending on email. All my interactions with Tim Brown have
been by phone...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 18:59:08 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Jump Troops

I was playing around with with jump troops, wondering what size the
launcher actually had to be, and came up with some interesting numbers. I
basically started with the classical idea that drop troops are for surprise
attacks.

First of all, I assumed the launcher was basically a mass driver, that
decelerated the capsule from the ship's orbital velocity to a reentry
velocity. The muzzle velocity of the MD would then have to be the
difference in those velocities.

Next, I started out assuming that the ship was in a circular orbit, and at
a minimum the capsule had to be placed in an orbit that just reached the
surface of the planet in question--standard Hohman min-energy transit. That
sets the minimum delta V necessary.

Assume a trooper in a capsule can take 15G's for 15 or so seconds. He might
briefly black out, but nothing serious. Then if I know the delta-V needed,
and the maximum acceleration I can put on the capsule, I can calculate the
length of the mass driver needed.

For a 300km earth orbit, a min-energy deorbit requires 89m/s, so the mass
driver has to be 27m long.

But wait! If you're sitting in a low circular orbit, you're mighty
vulnerable to defensive weapons. So I changed my assumption--the ship comes
in on a fast hyperbolic orbit, dumps the troops at the point of closest
approach, and continues on the outboud trajectory. How much vulnerability
does that provide?

Big problem--the delta-V from a minimally (eccentricity 1.00001) hyperbolic
orbit with periapsis at 300km is 3.2 KILOMETERS per second. The required
mass driver would have to be 36 KILOMETERS long ... not good.

OK. Next attempt--ship comes in hyperbolic, brakes into circular orbit,
dumps troops, and accelerates back out hyperbolic. Assume you're vulnerable
to fire once you're within 300,000km. Ship has 2G thrusters. What's that
look like?

Choosing a hyperbolic orbit with an eccentricity of 2.0, periapsis at
300km, we get an approach time of 10 minutes, circular injection burn of
4:42, departure burn of 4:42, and departure time of 10 minutes. Total
vulnerability: 34 minutes+launch time. Delta V for the drop troops is
89m/s, launcher is 27m.

Doesn't sound so bad, does it? Stop and think ... how long is the min
energy trajectory going to take the troops to reenter and land? Nearly 45
minutes. And there's really not much you can do to reduce that. Even if you
stretch the launcher to 50m, you still only get a delta-V of 124m/s, and a
reentry time of 43 minutes...

Now, I see somebody come screaming in on a tight hyperbolic, circularize
for a minute, and scream back out on a tight hyperbolic. What'm I going to
think? Bingo! So I start shooting. At what, you say--the capsules are all
stealthed! Big deal. I know about how much acceleration a drop troop can
take, I probably know how long your ship is, so I know the maximum delta-V
the troops could have. So I know approximately where they are. And you're
not going to hide their reentry anyway. A few low-yield high-altitude
proximity nukes, and the invasion is done for.

Doesn't sound good for drop troops, does it? Drop-troop invasions against
any planet with decent defenses sound suicidal. Well, maybe not quite that
bad. 

If you assume your troopship jumps in undetected, and makes its hyperbolic
approach stealthed and silent running (powered down, etc.), and assume
nobody detects you until you fire up your thrusters for orbital injection,
that leaves 5 minutes from the time you're first detected to the time you
launch, for me to track you, figure out exactly where you're headed, and
alert the defenses. That's not much time, is it. But the defenders still
have 45 minutes to prepare for your troops landing, and as soon as they see
the reentry trails, they know where that'll be. Assuming they don't airnuke
you first ...

If you want to get better dispersion on your troops, you'll have to up the
delta V. And you can't really get anything significant out of the
launcher--that's more for final positioning of the troops. So you'll have
to place the ship close to the reentry course you want for the troops,
spending a few more minutes doing so, launch the troops (quickly), and pray
nobody knocks out your maneuver drive before you can boost your way back
out. Because if they do, you're going to bounce _awfully_ hard off the
surface.

Meanwhile, assume you can give your troops a delta-V of 100m/s. That
requires a launcher 33m long. So the enemy knows the trajectory your ship
was on when it launched. If it projects that trajectory forward, the most
your troops could deviate from that trajectory would be approximately
100m*time since launch. In 10s, they could be up to a kilometer away from
where the projected point is. Better pray they have _excellent_ stealth and
dozens of decoys, because if I can get interceptors within a kilometer of
the capsules, traditionally 7m^3, they're probably dead.

The Excel spreadsheet I created to do this is available, if anybody's
interested.

Comments?

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 20:01:59 CDT
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@csci.csc.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1360

> We need at least one more person (there are 8 sectors in FS), but we 
> could use 9+ more to split up the work--a sector is a big place!
> 
> We are still waiting to hear from IG about this project, but are 
> there any more volunteers?

OK, I'm not in position to provide sector data, but I am willing to 
assist in reviewing old Trav materials for historical information...

There's a lot of info out there...  
- --
============================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist,           (217) 351-8250 x2365 = 
= Computer Sciences Corporation, Champaign, IL       dmckinne@csci.csc.com =
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998    =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org       (217) 469-9917 = 
============================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 17:46:46 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: TML-FS Project

> Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 11:58:13 +0000
> From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
> Subject: TML-FS Project
> 
> OK, we've got 7 people for the TML-FS Project.
> 
> Myself
> Michael Bailey
> Joseph "Chepe" Lockett
> Ryan Christensen
> Scott Nolan
> Timothy Collinson
> Vanya
> 
> We need at least one more person (there are 8 sectors in FS), but we
> could use 9+ more to split up the work--a sector is a big place!
> 
> We are still waiting to hear from IG about this project, but are
> there any more volunteers?

I volunteer to do the rimward half (subsectors I - P) of the Corridor
sector, if you can't find someone to do the rest, I'll do the whole
sector.  (I'm not sure if I'm up to a whole sector but since Corridor is
mostly empty...) I was already working on part of this data for a
Millieu 1100 adventure I'm pretending to (er trying to) write. I think
that whoever does the spinward half (subsectors A - H) of Corridor is
going to have to determine how many (if any) of these worlds are Vargr
then.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 00:02:52 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@orca.bc.ca>
Subject: Missile stats?

There was some disagreement in my campaign about the use of missiles on
starships.

How many shots do missiles and sandcasters get? I had always assumed that,
for example, a 3-missile turrent contained only 3 missiles, when you fired
them they were gone, and you had to go to a starport to get more installed.
Other players claimed that the gunner could reload one missile each space
combat turn. "One missile from where?" was my response; there are no rules
for missile storage, reloading, or magazines. I don't envision gunners
running back to the turret with replacement missiles under each arm. One
player thought you could just fire 3 missiles each turn for as long as you
wanted, like a video game.

Can civilians use nuclear missiles, whether contact or laser-detonation, or
not? T4 says yes, Emperor's Arsenal says no. So far I have said no, but all
the spaceship combat rules seem to assume that everyone uses laser-det
nukes.

Also, shouldn't it be harder to hit a ship with a contact missile, whether
nuclear or conventional, than with a laser-det missile? It's a lot easier
to aim a laser beam than an entire missile.

One of my players suggested making decoy missiles; small spacecraft fired
from missile tubes which emit energy signatures similar to a larger ship.
Does anyone have suggestions or comments about this?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 22:41:13 -0400
From: gahunter <gahunter@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: FS/M:0 project

Bill Prankard wrote:
> 
> (A small black disc shaped ship exits jumpsapce into TML space, seeing that
> things are clear, it sends a transmission.)
> 
> Greetings, This is The Commander.
> 
> This thread has interested me:
> 
> >Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 11:58:13 +0000
> >From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
> >Subject: TML-FS Project
> 
> >OK, we've got 7 people for the TML-FS Project.
> 
> >Myself
> >Michael Bailey
> >Joseph "Chepe" Lockett
> >Ryan Christensen
> >Scott Nolan
> >Timothy Collinson
> >Vanya
> 
> >We need at least one more person (there are 8 sectors in FS), but we
> >could use 9+ more to split up the work--a sector is a big place!
> 
> >We are still waiting to hear from IG about this project, but are
> >there any more volunteers?
> 
> >Kenneth
> 
> Interesting, how are the sectors to be redone?  I am willing to volunteer
> myself, my time and my "1100 to Year 0 Timewarp System". :)
> 
> Commander X

I also would like to volunteer for a sector if I could... I think this
could be at least the TML official sectors... maybe not IG but what does
it matter...

:)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 07:08:19 -0800
From: Evyn gutierrez <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Meeting of the Minds

Mr. Berry the west bay is doable name a town and place. 
But I won't be down from Carson City until sunday.

Evyn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 23:23:33 -0500
From: The Stump Family <stumps@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re:Ken'sCombat tweaks

Good stuff, Ken. I don't think that I'll use the critical strike on an
SS stuff, but I may change my mind. The rest is mint. 
 I agree - a bit of play-testing showed that the addition of fatigue
points to pool use really changes the 'flavor' of H-t-H combat. It also
allows me as GM to have more options - ferinstance, during play-test one
of the players taunted a highly skilled opponent until I decided he
would 'lose his cool' - I had the NPC 'dip into' his pools a lot (out of
anger) until he was fatigued; the (very battered but on his feet) player
then cleaned his clock.

NOW I remember why I subscribed to this list!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 01:38:04 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Missile stats?

Quoth Richard Hough:
> How many shots do missiles and sandcasters get? I had always assumed that,
> for example, a 3-missile turrent contained only 3 missiles, when you fired
> them they were gone, and you had to go to a starport to get more installed.

I can't tell off-hand what rules-set you're asking about, though I suspect
it's T4, which, you're right, doesn't tell us much.  I believe, but may be
corrected (Dave Golden?  Guy Garnett?), that the "ready missiles" in the
SSDS tables comes from the missile-turret design rules in FF&S, and covers
all missiles ready for loading within the turret.  So, yes, you only have
three available without stocking more in the cargo hold.

On the other hand, if you wanted CT, which T4 also harks back to:

Classic Traveller's "Special Supplement 3: Missiles" (from JTAS 21) states
(p. 7) that "each standard missile rack can hold one missile ready to fire
and two additional missiles ready for future game turns....  A gunner can
load new missiles into the racks and still operate the weaponry in a game
turn....  The standard turret has room to store an additional 12 missiles
in it.  Once these missiles have been used, the turret must be restocked
with missiles carried elsewhere in the ship (usually in the cargo hold)....
[I]f the gunner participates in restocking, he may not operate weaponry in
the turret in the next game turn."

> Can civilians use nuclear missiles, whether contact or laser-detonation, or
> not? T4 says yes, Emperor's Arsenal says no. So far I have said no, but all
> the spaceship combat rules seem to assume that everyone uses laser-det
> nukes.

Fancy you should ask.  ISBA, the Imperial Ship-Builders Association
(another mailing list) is discussing this very issue at this very moment.
(At least, we will again as soon as the Baron gets back from vacation).
TNE's new-found devotees to harder physics pointed out that contact
missiles were laughable for space-combat purposes, so det-lasers became
the canonical load -- which, of course, conflicted with the long-standing
Imperial Rules of War.  That's a well-roasted flame war in and of itself.

ISBA seems to be leaning towards det-laser missiles, with proper
safeguards to ensure they're used only for defensive purposes and not 
disassembled into rogue nukes.
 
> Also, shouldn't it be harder to hit a ship with a contact missile, whether
> nuclear or conventional, than with a laser-det missile? It's a lot easier
> to aim a laser beam than an entire missile.

And _that_ is the subject of an occasional flame-war of long standing on
the gdw-beta mailing list....  :-)  Contact missiles are just plain
ridiculous.  Some folks have tried to design so-called "BB" or "kinetic
kill" missiles that work by releasing a cloud of metal pellets over a wide
area, usually at or around det-laser range, in an attempt to nail the
target vessel that way.  It's still a subject of argument, based on lots
of speculation into previously unpublished details (ah, the old "how fast
do spacecraft slew?" debate!), as to whether they'd really work or not.
 
> One of my players suggested making decoy missiles; small spacecraft fired
> from missile tubes which emit energy signatures similar to a larger ship.
> Does anyone have suggestions or comments about this?

It'll work for low tech-level opponents.  And, depending on how neutrino
sensors and densitometers work in your universe (radically different
between MT and TNE), they might even fool higher-tech enemies for a while.
Again, it depends on your rules-set and campaign background.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 01:58:47 -0500
From: "vanya" <vanya@partyline.net>
Subject: Re: The need for SPEED!

> From: Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com>
> 
> Garry Ward wrote:
> 
> > Sure you aren't just under estimating your pistol skill and/or dex
scores?
> > 
> > Garry
> 
> 	I wish, but okay. Lets assume a Dex 10 and Pistols 2 - That gives us a
> TN of 4 on 2.5D6, which at least makes the shot possible. It doesn't,

In T4, your Target Number would be Dex + Skill --> 10 + 2 = 12


- -Vanya                                         UPP-8D9B85
Traveller ---------------- Science Fiction Adventure in the Far Future
Meyers-Briggs personality type:ENTJ          | vanya@partyline.net
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with." | dmoody@bridge.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 19:50:53 +1200
From: Brody Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Jump Troops

On Saturday, May 24, 1997 12:59 PM, David J. Golden [SMTP:goldendj@pcisys.net] 
wrote:
> I was playing around with with jump troops, wondering what size the
> launcher actually had to be, and came up with some interesting numbers. I
> basically started with the classical idea that drop troops are for surprise
> attacks.

OK!

> First of all, I assumed the launcher was basically a mass driver, that
> decelerated the capsule from the ship's orbital velocity to a reentry
> velocity. The muzzle velocity of the MD would then have to be the
> difference in those velocities.

Perhaps the capsule is fitted with solid rocket boosters in addition to being 
launched from the Mass Driver.  What would that do?

[snip]

> where the projected point is. Better pray they have _excellent_ stealth and
> dozens of decoys, because if I can get interceptors within a kilometer of
> the capsules, traditionally 7m^3, they're probably dead.

That could be a bugger!

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1361
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 24 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1362



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Jump Troops
Re: The need for SPEED!
Re: TML-FS Project
Eris' Movement Rules
Re: More homebrew combat rules...
Re: More homebrew combat rules...
Re:Ken'sCombat tweaks
Re: More hard SF ranting
Re: More homebrew combat rules...
Re: FS/M:0 project
Re: Jump troops
Re: TML-FS project
Re: TML-FS project
Re: Jump troops (and then Joe goes off into left field)
FS Data:  Tim Brown

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 18:21:12 -0700
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au>
Subject: Jump Troops

Good and valid points about Jump Troops.

From way way way back in the wargame Imperium (the game of the
Interstellar Wars up to the Terran invention of the Jump-3 drive),
assaulting a planet from orbit has always been a desperate risk.

There are, however, several things you can do about it.

Firstly, do an adequate amount of softening up of the planet. Take
out those interceptor bases. Suppress those missile and laser
batteries. Accept that those deep meson sites are going to hurt.

Secondly, pull a couple of dummy runs ... force the defense to commit,
and then fry anything that comes out to play. How do they know that
the blips on their radar are 100% dummies or marine-carrying capsules
(I was going to say "manned", but the Imperial Marines are an Equal
Opportunity Employer).

Finally, escort those jump capsules as they come in. Fighters with
sandcasters should help survivability in the hairy last few minutes.
A few Big Craft with nuke dampers will improve the issue (especially
if the locals dont have deep meson sites).

Once the Jump Troops are on the ground, they can improve the effectivness
of orbital bombardment via more accurate targeting of fire (gotta
love those long-range Laser Communicators). This should help get the next
wave of marines onto the planet, and so on until Heavy Marines or
Regular Army can be landed.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 05:59:26 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: The need for SPEED!

> 	Next situation though: melee combat. Having done martial arts for a few
> years, I know that alot of such HTH combats (the ones I've seen anyway)
> involve flurries of attacks back and forth. Maybe we should implement a
> Martial Arts skill, and let the users thereof use the fencing rule for
> counterattacks. 

Cool idea.  This is how I picture martial arts in Traveller.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 05:59:24 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: TML-FS Project

> I may be able to help, but I want to get the subsector mapper finished
> first.  I have gotten a lot of interest, and I want to know I can print the
> results of the maps before mucking about with the data.
> 
> I do like the idea of the project, though.  Let me know if you still need
> people in a few days.

No problem.  Actually, we are all hoping that IG will fix the stuff 
themselves.  We were just trying to help, but given Dave Golden's 
recent post, maybe IG will fix it.

I hope so.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 05:59:35 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Eris' Movement Rules

> Crawling: Maximum of (STR+DEX)X0.25 meters travelled per round.  Aimed fire
> permitted at (weapon's positive DM)/2 rounded down.
> 
> Walking: Maximum of (STR+DEX)X0.5 meters travelled per round.  -1 DM on
> ranged attacks.  No aimed fire permitted.
> 
> Jogging: Maximum of (STR+DEX)X0.75 meters travelled per round.  -3 DM on
> ranged attacks.
> 
> Running: Maximum of (STR+DEX) meters travelled per round.  -6 DM on ranged
> attacks.

Eris,

Your movement rules were better than mine.  Can you post them again 
or send them to me in private--I'm trying to remember how you guaged 
how long a character could run.  

Thank you, sir,

Kenneth.

(I accidently deleted them when cleaning out my mail box)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 05:59:31 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: More homebrew combat rules...

> 
> 
> 	After getting seriously inspired by Kenneth's combat rules post
> (most of which I adopted on the spot and incorporated into this combat
> rules handout I'm preparing for my players), I decided that decided that
> I'd float the following tweaks past the list.  These all assume use of KB
> v2.0 and Glenn Grant's hit location table and Eris's movement rules.  The
> modifications to the Shotgun rules are to better reflect the effects of
> firing a spreading cone of shot, and the Long Range KE  and Pistol attacks
> mods are to prevent that ridiculous 1,500 meter Body Pistol shot mentioned
> in the T4 rulebook.  

Roderick,

Did you check out the rules for this in the EA?  I think they are 
done pretty good.

Shotgun rule--covered in the descriptions of the various shotguns in 
the book.

Armor Piercing rule--page 8.

Burst Fire rule--page 9.

Expanded visibility rule--page 8.

Atmosphere rule--page 7.

Malfunction rule--page 7.

Expanded explosion rule--page 9.

Expanded Blunt Trauma rule--page 10.

Long Range KE Attacks rule--page 10.

Maximum Useful Range rule--page 10.

Zero-G recoil rule--page 11.


It looks like there's some duplication between some of your rules and 
some of the ones in the EA--namely the shotgun rule, the maximum 
useful range rule, and the long range KE attack rule.

Maybe I misread your post in that you have tweaked these rules in the 
EA, but it looked like to me that you were adding these rules without 
knowing about the rules in the EA.

If the former is true, then please disregard this post.  If the 
latter is true, I hope that you find the EA information useful.

Thanks,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 05:59:28 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: More homebrew combat rules...

> Reloading: Takes one round for weapons that reload via clip, tube magazine,
> or speedloader.  Weapons reloaded with individual rounds (e.g. revolvers,
> pump shotguns) reload at the rate of 2 rounds per turn.


Here's something I've come up with--using info from TNE and T4.

You might like it if you want a more detailed reload rule.




Reloading.  

Reloading a weapon when its magazine is empty is an 
action and  requires, normally, one combat round to complete.  Six 
seconds is still a short period of time to disengage an old 
magazine, locate and pull a new one, and replace the 	
  spent mag in the weapon--especially if one is not well versed in the
  operation of his 	 weapon.  To simulate this, the ref may require a
  check to replace the mag in one 	 round.  If the check fails, it can
  be tried each round until the check is successful.

  To reload a weapon:  Average test of appropriate weapon skill.

  Revolvers do not take magazines, and therefore take more time.  The
  minimum time to reload a revolver is two actions.  If need be, half
  the weapon's ammo can be 	 reloaded in one action i.e. 3 bullets for
  a 6 round revolver could be reloaded in one 	 combat round. 
  Revolvers assume 6 round cylinders.  If a weapon takes more 	 ammo,
  say 8 rounds, then use the individual ammo rule to see how long it
  takes.  Speed loaders allow revolvers to be reloaded in one action.

  Individual rounds, like loading a revolver or a shot gun, can be
  reloaded one bullet at a time.  Up to 3 bullets can be reloaded per
  action.

  Lasers do not use cartridges--they have power packs instead. 
  Replacing a spent 	 power pack is treated like changing a magazine
  if another power pack is carried and 	 readily available.  More
  likely, changing the power pack for a laser or other energy 	 weapon
  will require 4 actions--one for each of these steps:  disconnect the
  power 	 cable from the weapon, take off the power pack, put on the
  new power pack, and 	 connect the cable to the weapon.

  Belt type magazines, as used in heavy machine guns, usually contain
  50 to 100 	 bullets, and these belts can be replaced in two
  reloading actions.  If the weapon has 	 a two man crew, usually a
  gunner and a loader, then each operator can work 	 together to get
  the weapon reloaded in one action.

  Cassette type magazines, those used in large self contained feed
  systems on 	 vehicles and such, require 5 reloading actions to
  reload.  Thus, one person could 	 reload them in 5 rounds, but 5
  people, given sufficient space with which to work, 	 could reload
  the weapon in only 1 combat round.

  All of these loading times are minimum times and assume that a fresh
  magazine is at hand to reload the weapon.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 05:59:29 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re:Ken'sCombat tweaks

> Good stuff, Ken. I don't think that I'll use the critical strike on an
> SS stuff, but I may change my mind. The rest is mint.

Thank you, thank you, sir.  

I run a lot of combats in my game--fire fights and fist fights.  
Besides the reasons I listed in the original post, I found that 
player characters had the potential of getting killed or 
unconscious way too fast for it to be any fun.

Rolling randomly on a character's stats can put a character under 
real fast.  The first shot, and wham, one stat is at zero--PC is 
unconsious on the floor at the mercy of his opponents.

This is one of the main reasons I changed the rule--that and the 
realism notes I made last time.

Besides, if you are using KBv2.0, SS is based on a character's skill 
level.  You'll roll an SS more often than you might think.

Take, for instance, a character with Pistol-3 trying to hit an 
opponent at 10 meters.  That's Very Short range with an Average throw 
to hit.

In KBv2.0, the character's SS number would be 6 or less on 3 D6.  
That's really not too bad of a percentage--it's almost 10%.

And when that SS hits--oooohhh, is it sweet.  Players love it.

Also, there's other things character's can do to take out an opponent 
fast.  In a fist fight, the character can try for double damage at 
the -5 DM listed on page 59.

In a recent fist fight we had, I had an NPC with Brawling-3 and Dex 
9.  He was throwing a hand strike against a PC--that's an Average 
Brawling throw.

In KBv2.0, his target number is 18, and he has to roll that or less 
on 3 D6.  The guy can't miss unless he rolls SF or the PC put points 
on him from the defensive pool or something.

Given this, I chose to take the -5 DM--giving the NPC a target number 
of 14 or less on 3 D6 which is still pretty good.

If I would have hit, (which I didn't :(), I would have rolled 
1 D6 x 2 damage.  Since it is only one die, it all comes off of one 
stat--there was a damn good chance that I was going to incapacitate 
the PC with one blow.

But, alas, the PC was better at his throws and smarter at his choices 
of attack forms--and a Brawling-1, Dex-5 PC ended up kicking the crap 
out of the Brawling-3, Dex-9 NPC.

It was a damn fun fight, but the point here is that, even if a SS 
wasn't rolled, there are ways to incapacitate through your choice of 
attack routine.

>  I agree - a bit of play-testing showed that the addition of fatigue
> points to pool use really changes the 'flavor' of H-t-H combat. It also
> allows me as GM to have more options - ferinstance, during play-test one
> of the players taunted a highly skilled opponent until I decided he
> would 'lose his cool' - I had the NPC 'dip into' his pools a lot (out of
> anger) until he was fatigued; the (very battered but on his feet) player
> then cleaned his clock.

Cool.  Sounds like a good fight.

> NOW I remember why I subscribed to this list!

Wow, I'll take that as a compliment.  

Everybody always remembers me talking down about IG, so I thought 
that I would start pointing out when I said the good things.  I know 
that it is human nature to only remember the bad, but I promote IG 
just as hard as I tear them down.

In this case, they did a really good job on some of these combat 
rules--eventhough I thought they needed a few tweaks.

We get into fights now, and it's a cool fight.  My player's and I are 
there.  The Traveller system is so much more than, "OK, I hit, here's 
damage, you go ahead and roll."

There's choices to be made--and those choices can save your 
character's ass.

I'm glad you liked the post!

Kenneth. 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 00:47:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: More hard SF ranting

In mail you write:

>> For *any* reaction drive, this is *false*. The drive itself is a highly
>> specialized powerplant that takes in the fuel and converts it to
>> "power" in the form of a high speed exhaust. The power output of a
>> reaction drive is a matter of *extremely* secondary concern.
>  
>    "The drive itself is a highly specialized powerplant..."  This is the
>    crux of my point.  If the drive itself outgenerates the "powerplant"
>    by a factor of 1000, you have to wonder why you bother with a
>    separate powerplant in the first place.  Just skim off one tenth of
>    one percent of the drive output, and you have all the power you need.

Except that the powerplant won't *let* you do this. Aside from minor
amounts of "waste heat" which the design specificly turns back into hot
exhaust out the nozzle, the only way to "tap" the power from the drive
is to put something into the exhaust. And that will *severely* impact
thrust. 

If you want thrust, then you *can't* tap off power. If you want power,
you can't generate thrust. That's the way rockets work. 

There is no "power used for M-drives". The "power generated *by* the
M-drive" is the thrust. That's where you are getting it wrong. You are
treating the power as something *seperate* from the exhaust. It isn't
seperate, it *is* the exhaust.

Once you get that clear the rest makes sense too. If you want to tap
the power, you have to tap the exhaust. And that has *big* conseuences
in terms of messing up the thrust. It's also damned hard to do without
ruining the engine *and* whatever you are sticking into the exhaust. 

You *can* run a rocket as a generator. You have to run the exuast thru
an MHD generator, and as a result, the exhaust coming out provides
little or no thrust. And the generator required is pretty damned massive.

So, for all practical purposes, you don't *get* to use the power the
m-drive "generates". Because it isn't generated as power, it's
generated as *thrust*. Energy = force*distance.

Try looking at it this way: A big gun generates a lot of energy. But
you can't realistically expect to *tap* the power. Doing so is both
difficult, and defeats the whole *purpose* of having the gun. Namely,
producing high speed projectiles.

I ran into this same misconception over on rec.arts.sf.science a couple
of months back. Efficient reaction drives make *lousy* power plants
unless *dedicated* to being power plants. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 02:01:53 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: More homebrew combat rules...

Brett Fishburne wrote:

>
>>	Movement Statuses
>>
>     <snipped movement details>
>
>Missing is how long a person could move at this rate or any side effects of
>moving at a high rate which would increase fatigue -- or am I missing
>something obvious?


	Nope... I was just going to go with the TLARTTGM system :)...
However, IIRC Eris's post from which I lifted those numbers also had
fatigue rules.  I'll hafta look & see.


>
>>	Attacks
>>
>>Aimed fire: Attacker's motion status must be Stationary or Crawling.
>>
>>Shotgun: +2 DM to hit, +4 if barrel is sawed-off or short.  Will do 1/2
>>damage at range band beyond its optimal range, none at next range band.
>>
>>Reloading: Takes one round for weapons that reload via clip, tube magazine,
>>or speedloader.  Weapons reloaded with individual rounds (e.g. revolvers,
>>pump shotguns) reload at the rate of 2 rounds per turn.
>
>I think that if a PC reloads two rounds into a revolver there should be a
>likelihood that the revolver is not set to fire the two rounds just loaded.
>Perhaps there is a maximum((10-pistol skill),1)% chance that the proper
>chamber is not under the firing pin or something like that.  I think that
>reloading a revolver or shotgun should also take longer if you are running
>or sprinting...

	Good point.  I'll apply those -DMs to anything involving manual
dexterity or concentration.

R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 15:02:21 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: FS/M:0 project

- -> >OK, we've got 7 people for the TML-FS Project.
- -> 
- -> >Myself
- -> >Michael Bailey
- -> >Joseph "Chepe" Lockett
- -> >Ryan Christensen
- -> >Scott Nolan
- -> >Timothy Collinson
- -> >Vanya
- -> 
- -> 
- -> >We need at least one more person (there are 8 sectors in FS), but we
- -> >could use 9+ more to split up the work--a sector is a big place!
- -> 
- -> >We are still waiting to hear from IG about this project, but are
- -> >there any more volunteers?
I volunteer not for an entire sector, but maybe as an aide to 
somebody? 
Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 14:46:42 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Jump troops

David Golden writes:

>I was playing around with with jump troops, wondering what size the
>launcher actually had to be, and came up with some interesting numbers. 

[Long and realistic explanation of why jump-troopering is a high-risk
occupation.]

This is a perfect example of why I think it is a genuine mistake to get
the real world too mixed up with game worlds. Jump troops are fun (They
are also part of the Traveller background). Demonstrating that in real 
life they would actually have the life expectancy of a Vargr stowaway on
a K'Kree ship is something I really don't need to enjoy my Traveller
games. I'd much rather have some (however unrealistic) figures for how 
big a jump capsule is and how fast it gets down and how it has a 35 in 36
chance of making it down safe. And if I have to violate a few laws of
nature to achieve that desirable end then I'd rather not have my nose
rubbed in it.

When it comes to games reality is a good servant but a damn poor master.

Of course, if the subsequent discussion results in demonstrating realistic
ways to make jump troops feasible, then I withdraw my remark (in this case).
Realistic is better than unrealistic  --  AS LONG AS YOU GET TO IMAGINE FUN
STUFF ANYWAY!


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8
 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 14:33:23 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: TML-FS project

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
>OK, we've got 7 people for the TML-FS Project.
> 
>Myself
>Michael Bailey
>Joseph "Chepe" Lockett
>Ryan Christensen
>Scott Nolan
>Timothy Collinson
>Vanya
> 
> 
>We need at least one more person (there are 8 sectors in FS), but we
>could use 9+ more to split up the work--a sector is a big place!
> 
>We are still waiting to hear from IG about this project, but are
>there any more volunteers?

I've been doing something like that for the Spinward Marches for the last
half year (just for my own amusement), and let me warn you that doing 
something like that properly is a massive undertaking. I would imagine
that it would be an even bigger job for the sectors close to Core. Still,
I wouldn't mind helping out, but I'm not going to get exited about it 
until _after_ it has been approved by IG.

However, if you do get approval, you should get together with Joe Walsh
and the other people from CORE. I believe they've already done that work
once, at least for Core Sector, only to have it replaced by the FS stuff.
 
Scott Ellsworth wrote:
>BTW, I suggest that as long as you are redoing the data, you should at
>least consider breaking the 1100 sectors judiciously, so that there are
>fewer tainted atmosphere worlds with bazillions of people next door to
>empty earthlike worlds.
> 
>I would not mind if the 1100 data was fiddled with in the process, just to
>make the y0 data make sense.  In fact, this might be a good idea, as there
>are large signs that nobody at DGP actually looked at the data in some of
>those sectors.

I agree completely. Random generation is a wonderful springboard for the
imagination, but it has to be tempered with common sense. I usually spend
a quarter of an hour trying to come up with an explanation for even the
most bizarre combination of UPP numbers and it's amazing how often I
succeed. But sometimes I don't. And when I've tried again a couple of times,
I give up and change something to make it more sensible.

>Just a thought, and one that I have been working on a way to automate, 

Link the generation of the population figure to the physical characteristics.
Don't make lush low-population worlds and hostile high-population worlds
completely impossible, but do introduce a healthy bias away from them. 

Peter Newman wrote:
>I volunteer to do the rimward half (subsectors I - P) of the Corridor
>sector, if you can't find someone to do the rest, I'll do the whole
>sector.  (I'm not sure if I'm up to a whole sector but since Corridor is
>mostly empty...) I was already working on part of this data for a
>Millieu 1100 adventure I'm pretending to (er trying to) write. I think
>that whoever does the spinward half (subsectors A - H) of Corridor is
>going to have to determine how many (if any) of these worlds are Vargr
>then.

IMO very few, and those would be low- to mid-tech. Why? Because the Imperium
scouts made it through Corridor and Deneb in 50 years, followed very closely
by traders. They couldn't have done that in the face of active corsair
activity. My guess is that the rimward half of Provence and Tuglikki sectors 
were fairly empty in 0. I think Imperials settled in those as well as in 
Corridor and Deneb, and that the subsequent Vargr raids eventually caused 
the Imperium to abandon everything coreward of the sector borders. This 
would also explain why the 1100 border between the Imperium and the Vargr 
worlds is drawn by a ruler along the edges of sectors established by
Imperial map conventions. That isn't something the Vargr did. They didn't 
advance to that border and then decide to stop. The Imperium retreated to
that border and stopped them.

Hmmm... I guess I'd like to take on part of Corridor, if the project does
become a reality.  


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 12:09:13 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: TML-FS project

> I've been doing something like that for the Spinward Marches for the last
> half year (just for my own amusement), and let me warn you that doing 
> something like that properly is a massive undertaking. I would imagine
> that it would be an even bigger job for the sectors close to Core. Still,
> I wouldn't mind helping out, but I'm not going to get exited about it 
> until _after_ it has been approved by IG.

I agree completely.  It is a huge job--that's why we need people.  I 
don't plan on doing anything until after IG approves it either.

I'm hoping that IG will do it themselves.  If they don't, I'm just 
trying to make sure the job gets done.

> However, if you do get approval, you should get together with Joe Walsh
> and the other people from CORE. I believe they've already done that work
> once, at least for Core Sector, only to have it replaced by the FS stuff.

Excellent point.  I will.


> Hmmm... I guess I'd like to take on part of Corridor, if the project does
> become a reality.  

OK, then.  I'll keep in touch.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 12:09:39 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Jump troops (and then Joe goes off into left field)

On Sat, 24 May 1997, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> When it comes to games reality is a good servant but a damn poor master.
> 
> Of course, if the subsequent discussion results in demonstrating realistic
> ways to make jump troops feasible, then I withdraw my remark (in this case).
> Realistic is better than unrealistic  --  AS LONG AS YOU GET TO IMAGINE FUN
> STUFF ANYWAY!

Here, here!!  [much applause]

As you know, Hans, when we were doing the Econ stuff for Pocket Empires 
we ran into that problem head-on.  Making it perfectly realistic (well, 
as realistic as possible - I've yet to find two economists who agree on 
every issue) would have made the danged econ rules so difficult and tedious 
as to make them worthless.  So, we ended up using comprehensive yet 
limited definitions for a few key concepts, glossing over the rest, and 
essentially trying for believability and internal consistency in effort 
to achieve something that was playable and Travelleresque.

I think we pulled it off well enough, and I hope the equipment/ 
ship/vehicle design folks are able to do so, too.

BTW, Hans, your essay and rules on monetary value in Traveller looks 
great in Pocket Empires - they made a "sidebar" that is a whole page, 
giving it the emphasis it deserves.  Again, as I said when we were working 
through this, great work!  You provided the link between PE Econ and the 
economics of the Traveller game, while expanding the whole concept of 
interstellar exchange rates in a way that really adds to the Traveller 
universe.  Wow!

Oh, and one more note:  Stu and I, with a lot of good criticism and 
assistance from the playtesting team (which, in addition to Hans, 
included Rob Brennan, J.D. Burdick, James Burdick, Jr., Peter J. Miller, 
Allen Shock, and Kevin Walsh), designed and wrote Chapter 4, Economics 
and Chapter 5, Planetary Development.  Please let Stu and I know what you 
think of those chapters - what's right and what's wrong - as we do want to 
continually improve our work, so that each product is better its 
predecessor.

As a preview, CORE had to form smaller teams so we could get more work 
done after Pocket Empires.  Stu and I wrote Psionic Institutes together 
(with the help of the lovely, talented, and patient Suz Dollar and 
Carole Walsh, and a great group of playtesters - Joe Heck, J.D. Brudick, 
James Burdick, Jr., and Guy "Wildstar" Garnett). We then designed the 
much-maligned 32 pages of M0 Campaign, and are now working on a third 
project for IG.  

At the same time, Jo Grant has been working diligently on Aliens 
Hardbound Volume 1.  Andy Lilly and David Burden broke TLWH into two 
parts for IG's 64-page Adventure format, and are now joining Jo on the 
Aliens project.

I think I speak for all of us at CORE when I say that we're looking 
forward to a long, enjoyable and productive relationship with Marc Miller, 
Tim Brown, Imperium Games, our knowledgeable and patient playtesters<G>, 
and everyone who buys T4 products.  We look forward to making Traveller 
products we can all be proud of, whether as designer, editor, artist, 
playtester, publisher, or - most importantly - player.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh  |  Game Designer for Marc Miller's Traveller
_________________|  Atari 1200XL and Apple IIGS User and Programmer

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 12:09:09 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: FS Data:  Tim Brown

Dave Golden wrote:

> I spoke for a while with Tim Brown at IG today, and one of the subjects was
> the M0/FS "issue." (Is that what we call a shark feeding frenzy nowadays,
> where people wind up tearing each other up? An "issue?"). Anyway, he's
> interested in hearing how you'd like to see errata made available. He asked
> me to post a general request for inputs, and asked that you send them to
> the game mechanics address IG has set up: mailto:gamehelp@imperiumgames.com.


Dear Tim

Here is a letter I wrote to Courtney Solomon as a follow up to 
Volker's original letter with regard to the data in FS.  In it, I 
describe how I, and many people on the list, would like to see the 
errata be available to Traveller fans.

We have also volunteered to fix the data, as you will see in the 
letter below, but we do this reluctantly.  We would rather see IG fix 
the data and provide errata, but if the company is not going to do 
this (like we have been led to believe), then we will complete it if 
IG will publish it.

Let me make it clear that we would rather not have to fix the data 
ourselves, but will do it if nobody else is--as long as IG is behind 
the project.  So far, 16 members of the TML list have volunteered to 
work on this project.  We have been waiting to hear an answer from 
IG.

Here's the letter with the suggested errata availability.  Please 
contact me if you have any questions.

And, thank you, Tim, for looking into this matter.  It is just the 
type of thing that we, on the list, needed to see.  Many of us were 
starting to think that IG did not care about Traveller or us--it's 
core customers.

We were all hoping to see something that proved us wrong.

Sincerely,

Kenneth D. Bearden




(the following is the letter to Courtney Somomon)

> Dear List, Courtney, Marc, and IG,
> 
> Volker wrote a great letter to Courtney Solomon at Sweetpea about
> proposed changes for FS.  I agree 100% with what Volker wrote, and I
> think that this is something that needed to be done--especially in
> light of the events occuring on the list in the last few days.
> 
> Here's a few more suggestions and comments about FS.
> 
> I suggest that the incomplete maps be removed from FS and replaced
> with referee maps that contain complete information.
> 
> One blank sector grid should be included for refs who want to make a
> player map with limited information.  This blank map can be
> photocopied, and the ref can use it to detail as much or as little
> of the information as he desires if he doesn't want to show the
> complete maps to his players.
> 
> This way, a referee has information about the sector from one glance
> at the map--instead of having to look up hex locations in the data
> list for each world the ref needs info on.
> 
> Likewise, I think that some of the space in FS can be saved by not
> printing the data lists twice.  As it stands now, FS has a player
> section with blanks and a referee section with complete system data.
> 
> I suggest a fix similiar to the one I proposed about the maps.  One,
> totally blank, list should be included for referees to photocopy and
> fill out for player information.  The pages of the book can be
> greatly reduced by eliminating all of those other, duplicate
> incomplete player data listings.
> 
> I know that Marc intended this book to be used as a work book--where
> players fill in the missing data as they discover it, but I think
> this purpose would be better served using the fix I have detailed
> above.
> 
> One more thing--Volker listed several examples of the data in FS
> being wrong.  Most noteably, this was the LL=GG flub.  Most of us
> here on the TML would like to see that data fixed.  If you are
> interested, some of us have banded together to help.  
> 
> What we propose is this--
> 
> 1)  We will fix all of the data in FS, and make it backwardly
> compatible with previous published data for these sectors.
> 
> 2)  This service will be undertaken free of charge to you by the
> Traveller fans on this list in an effort to see FS become a useable
> Traveller resource.  When the project is completed, we will hand
> over all rights to IG, and the data becomes the property of IG.
> 
> In return, we ask that you--
> 
> 1)  Publish the corrected data in future printings of FS and/or the
> M0/FS hardback.
> 
> 2)  Produce errata sheets containing the corrected information, and
> make this information available to any who ask at no, or a very low,
> cost. Having the errata sheets available to anyone who who sends IG
> an SASE is what I have in mind, but if a dollar or two charge is
> necessary, then this will be acceptible.
> 
> You may consider making the errata available on IG web site or
> publishing this data in a series of issues in the JTAS in
> conjunction with the SASE program.
> 
> 3)  Advertise that the errata sheets are available through placing
> small flyers in upcoming IG products for Traveller players who are
> not subscribed to the TML.
> 
> 4)  Include credit in the publications that this corrected data will
> be used in.  Correcting the FS is a big job, and most of us will be
> doing it by hand.  It will be nice for the Traveller fans who work
> on the TML-FS Project to have their names in print on a product of
> their favorite role playing game.
> 
> If you have any other requirements to add, please contact me to
> discuss them.  You can reach me here, on the TML list, or at
> dreamer@brokersys.com.
> 
> I await your answer.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Kenneth D. Bearden 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1362
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 24 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1363



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: More homebrew combat rules...
Stun Damage Musings
Re: Jump troops
RE: Jump Troops
Re: Ancients/Grandfather
Fans and Players
Grovel, Grovel.
[none]
Campaign write up (LONGISH)
Re: Fans and Players
Re: Fans and Players

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 14:31:49 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: More homebrew combat rules...

At 5:59 +0000 5/24/97, Kenneth Bearden wrote:
>>
[snippage]
>
>It looks like there's some duplication between some of your rules and
>some of the ones in the EA--namely the shotgun rule, the maximum
>useful range rule, and the long range KE attack rule.
>
>Maybe I misread your post in that you have tweaked these rules in the
>EA, but it looked like to me that you were adding these rules without
>knowing about the rules in the EA.


	Nope, I was aware of the EA rules, and did indeed crib lots of
them.  It's a great supplement.  I actually kinda prefer my take on the
shotgun thing, so I'm going with that instead.


>
>If the former is true, then please disregard this post.  If the
>latter is true, I hope that you find the EA information useful.
>


	Was mondo useful, and I'm going to incorporate your reloading rules
into the handout.  They cover more weapon types than mine do.  Of course,
given my players, I'm going to have to do my damndest to keep them from
getting their hands on belt-fed weapons :).

R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 14:17:54 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Stun Damage Musings

In thinking about my first post on Ken's Combat Tweaks, I have 
remembered another tweak that I've implemented since I've started 
using the T4 rules.  This one has to do with Stun Damage.


Healing Stun Damage:

Stun damage.  See the rule on page 57.  It says that a character 
making a hand to hand attack can attack to stun rather than do real 
damage.

I actually like this rule, and I can see its use in combat.  But, I 
question how much control you have over yourself when you are 
pounding them to knock them our or subdue them.

It seems to me that there is a fine line between attacking to stun 
and attacking to kill.  In the heat of a fight, I'm not sure a 
character has complete control over that.

In this vein, I have tweaked the stun damage rule.  

I do everything as written--basically running the combat as normal.  
But, after the fight is over, I make a distinction over which damage 
is stun and which is leathal.

How I do this is simple, and an example best describes it.

We've got Jake, who's beat to a pulp after a fight--but still 
standing.  His original stats were 875.  With the damage from the 
fight, his stats are now 132.

What I do is roll in 1 D6 increments how much of that damage is 
stun (we are taking into account that his opponent attacked him 
with the intent to stun).  All damage that is not stun damage is 
leathal.

So, first I'd look at Jake's Str.  He had an 8.  Now, he's got a 1.  
He's lost 7 points.  I'd roll (or have the player roll) 1 D6 to see 
how many points of the damage were stun.  I roll and get a 3.

Then I check the next 6 point increment--but this is only 1 point 
(we've already checked the other 6 points).  Rolling higher dice with 
the player, the player wins, and this is also considered a point of 
stun damage.

Looking at what we've just done, we know that Jake has 4 stun 
points out of the total 7 damage points done to him.  

I'd go on to check the other two stats in the same manner, and after 
that's done, we let him heal.

I heal all stun damage first because it heals so much faster.  Then, 
when that is completed, we start at that point to heal the lethal 
damage.

This procedure does not need to be done every time.  You only need to 
do it when you need to know a character's current hit point state 
before he is healed--like if Jake gets into another fight within 24 
hours.

Otherwise, given Jake gets proper medical attention, all of 
his wounds heal anyway, and you don't have to worry about it.



Reducing Damage for Checked Blows:

On page 57, where they talk about stun damage, it mentions that some 
weapons can be used to inflict stun damage.  They refer to a listing, 
but I haven't found it in the book.  Maybe it was on the missing 
weapon's chart.

I assume they are talking about blunt melee weapons--at least that 
seems logical to me.

Given this, I'd handle stun damage in the same way.  If a player 
indicates that he wants his character to really check his blow, I'd 
reduce his damage by one die.  That way, less damage is applied to 
the victim, but I would check the same way to see how much of it was 
stun damage.



Stun Damage from Explosions:

One last thing about stun damage.  The EA, on page 9, lists an 
optional rule about explosions.  There, it says you could put a limit 
on the maximum lethal damage an explosion can do--3 dice is suggested 
with the rest of the explosion damage being considered non-lethal 
(stun).

That's one way to handle it.  The EA also suggests another way to do 
this, and I like this one better.  Half the damage that penetrates 
armor is considered lethal--the other half is not.

You can roll damage and divide by two, but what I do is divide the 
damage dice in two.  For example, if 4 dice of damage is being 
applied to the character, 2 dice are considered lethal (I roll it) 
and 2 dice are considered stun (and, I roll that seperately).

This keeps with the spirit of the rule but also adds some variety and 
uncertainty to the roll--I could roll 2 points stun and 12 points 
lethal, or even vice versa.

If the damage dice are odd--say, 3 dice of damage penetrate, I'd 
either roll the player higher die to see if it is 2 dice stun and 1 
dice damage or the other way around.  Or, I'd decide based on the 
situation (if the character is in a fox hole and a grenade lands on 
him doing 3 dice--I'd say that automatically it is 2 dice lethal and 
1 die stun.)

It is clear from the EA that the ref should get a good general rule 
that he likes with regards to explosive damage.  Between the EA and 
Book 1, there are three different ways to handle this type of damage.

Let me suggest a fourth.  It's a combination of the two optional 
rules in the EA.

The first rule I mentioned above says that the first 3 dice of an 
explosion is considered lethal damage, and all other damage after 
that point is considered stun.  The second rule above says that half 
the damage of an explosion is considered stun and the other half 
lethal.

Combining those two, consider this as an explosion damage option.  
The first 3 dice of an explosion that penetrates armor is considered 
lethal, and after that point, damage is halved between lethal and 
stun (either divide total damage points in two or divide dice in 
two--take your pick).

I think that explosions should be pretty hazardous, so I'm inclined 
to use this fourth option in my game.

Kenneth.  

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 13:22:37 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Jump troops

At 02:46 pm 05/24/97 +0200, you wrote:
>This is a perfect example of why I think it is a genuine mistake to get
>the real world too mixed up with game worlds. Jump troops are fun (They
>are also part of the Traveller background). Demonstrating that in real 
>life they would actually have the life expectancy of a Vargr stowaway on
>a K'Kree ship is something I really don't need to enjoy my Traveller
>games. I'd much rather have some (however unrealistic) figures for how 
>big a jump capsule is and how fast it gets down and how it has a 35 in 36
>chance of making it down safe. And if I have to violate a few laws of
>nature to achieve that desirable end then I'd rather not have my nose
>rubbed in it.

	See, I'd much rather work with reality, and figure out HOW to get it to
work. That's why I posted this. It's like the argument about random
generated UPPs that produce a high-pop hellhole one jump from a pop 2
Garden of Eden ... you've got to do some fancy explaining to justify it!

>Of course, if the subsequent discussion results in demonstrating realistic
>ways to make jump troops feasible, then I withdraw my remark (in this case).
>Realistic is better than unrealistic  --  AS LONG AS YOU GET TO IMAGINE FUN
>STUFF ANYWAY!

	Well, yes, that's my goal. I'd rather play D&D than prove Robert Heinlein
himself was wrong! (And don't get me started about that hollywood
abomination about the book coming out ....).

	Let me repeat--my goal is NOT to prove jump troops wouldn't exist. My goal
is to figure out HOW jump troops could work!
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 13:22:32 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: RE: Jump Troops

At 07:50 pm 05/24/97 +1200, Brody Dunn wrote:

>> First of all, I assumed the launcher was basically a mass driver, that
>> decelerated the capsule from the ship's orbital velocity to a reentry
>> velocity. The muzzle velocity of the MD would then have to be the
>> difference in those velocities.
>
>Perhaps the capsule is fitted with solid rocket boosters in addition to
being 
>launched from the Mass Driver.  What would that do?

	Haven't had time to do any detailed looking at this, but it would do two
things I can see without running numbers

	1. It'd increase the capsule signature while it's decelerating
	2. It'd increase the amount of delta-V available somewhat. At a first
rough cut, assuming 20% of the capsule is solid rocket fuel, buys about
another 7 m/s (assuming I'm not boning the calc after two hours sleep).

	And that doesn't really buy you much on the deorbit at all. You still
_have_ to use the ship itself (which can only decelerate at a few Gs, but
can do so indefinitely) to put the capsules on a steep reentry trajectory.

>[snip]
>
>> where the projected point is. Better pray they have _excellent_ stealth and
>> dozens of decoys, because if I can get interceptors within a kilometer of
>> the capsules, traditionally 7m^3, they're probably dead.
>
>That could be a bugger!

	Yep. Of course, my analsysis was _extremely_ pessimistic. The reentry
trajectory I chose has the minimum delta-V, but is the longest possible
(and I didn't even consider whether the capsules would "skip" instead of
reentering). Factor in reaction time on the ground now: assuming you're
stealthed and they aren't being unusually alert, they won't be able to
detect you until you start your attack burn, lasting 7+ minutes (to go to a
reentry trajectory instead of a circular orbit). It'll take them a few
minutes to detect, then confirm, track to figure out your trajectory,
identify possible targets, alert the defense sites, etc.

	My whole goal with this actually was to figure out how big a launcher had
to be. On the one hand, you're going to be doing most of the delta-V (20
*kilometers* per second or so) with the ship, so why bother with a launcher.

	On the other hand, the ship will probably be fairly easy to track while
it's thrusting, so the trajectory of your capsules will be nailed down from
the get-go, so you need to be able to impart some additional delta-V while
launching. But how big will the launcher be?

	Hmm ... using the draft FF&S2 rules and making some off-the-cuff
assumptions (OTC)

	Capsule: 7m^3 3.5:1 cylinder
	Capsule diameter (=caliber): 1.35m
	Mass of driver: 365 tons
	Delta-V (=muzzle velocity): 100m/s (OTC)
	Mass of capsule: 14 tons (OTC)
	Muzzle Energy: 0.7Mj
	Fire Control: neglect
	Volume of driver: 365m^3 (=26 Disp tons)
	Energy Required (TL12): 1.4Mj

	Hmmm ... this is interesting ... the sequence doesn't seem to depend on
barrel length? So how do I know what the acceleration is? Maybe I'm trying
to stretch the rules to cover something they shouldn't ...

	
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 14:34:06 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Ancients/Grandfather

> *deep breath*
> 
> You're right. Sorry about getting all snappy like that. You didn't tell 
> me to shut up, of course (I said it was irrelevent, didn't I?).
> I was still a bit riled up about all those other flamewars going on.
> Apologies. (Must... defuse...TML... before... it... expl*BOOM*)


Burn, baby,...ah, forget I said that.  :)

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 14:55:50 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Fans and Players

Hi,

I just read the article in JTAS 26 which is a semi-interview with Marc 
Miller.  In it, the author slyly mentions a "long-time Traveller fan," 
then reveals that it's really Marc Miller he's talking about.  That got 
me to thinking about fans, players, designers, and all those other nifty 
labels floating around.

Okay, so it's fair to describe Marc as a fan of Traveller.  Perhaps he's the 
biggest fan of Traveller - he's devoted one heck of a lot of his life to 
it, after all. But he's also the creator of Traveller, the guiding 
visionary, and of course, the original and continuing designer of 
Traveller.

So, he fits into a lot of categories.  What about us, the TMLers?  What 
categories do we fit into?  I guess we have to define the categories 
first.  Here's how I think of them:

Fan:  Someone who buys Traveller stuff, goes to conventions that feature 
Traveller games and dealer tables, and/or talks about Traveller a lot.  I 
think this is the broadest category.  Pretty much anyone who buys more 
than a couple of Traveller products could be considered a Fan.

Designer:  Someone who designs systems, background material, or items for 
Traveller.  I think Traveller's Player and Fan population includes a heck 
of a lot of these people - a higher per capita ratio than any other game, 
I'd wager.  It's so open to design, whether that be ships, weapons, house 
rules, or what-have-you.  A lot of the folks here on TML are designers.

Player:  Someone who actually plays Traveller.  This is what it's all 
about; the players are the ones driving this cart.  Without them, there's 
no purpose in the Fans and Designers existing.  Moreover, I'd hasten to add 
that you don't get to be a player forever just because you played at one 
time.  Either you're currently a player, or you're not, depending on 
whether you're currently involved in a Traveller game (whether as player 
or referee).

So, who are we?  Clearly, all of us are Fans of Traveller.  Maybe not 
fans of every incarnation, but Fans of Traveller nonetheless.  I think 
that, over the course of months and years, we've come to know who here is 
a designer - at least, those that aren't shy about sharing their designs 
on the list. :)  But, really, those two categories are secondary to the 
Player category.  And that's not so easy to determine here on TML - it's 
not a forum that is very conducive to showing that one is a player, 
apparently.  

So, who here is actually playing Traveller - any incarnation, with any 
home rules; as long as you think of it as Traveller, it qualifies - right 
now?  Who is involved in a game of Traveller, whether meeting daily, 
weekly, or monthly?

Who's driving this cart, anyway? :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh  |  Game Designer for Marc Miller's Traveller
_________________|  Atari 1200XL and Apple IIGS User and Programmer

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 21:51:06 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Grovel, Grovel.

My system just crashed, and it went a little haywire on restart. I may have
sent three copies of a longish mail. If that is the case, I apologise.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Feel the guilt / like shackles round your feet / like a halo in reverse"
                     Depeche Mode "Violator"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 21:53:36 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: [none]

>Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 21:52:35 +0100
>To: Traveller
>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: What I like about Traveller.
>Cc:
>Bcc:
>X-Attachments:
>
>Kenneth invited us to say what we like about Traveller. I've been thinking
>and here are those same thoughts:
>
>The sweeping future history of the Third Imperium.
>The feeling of shock I got when I read survival margin and the effect of
>Virus struck home.
>
>The DGP Aliens series. (Brilliant on all counts).
>
>The Starship operators Manual (DGP again - Pseudo-tech for the ref with
>nice artwork)
>
>Hard Times - my favourite GDW supplement, dark and brooding, but with a
>streak of hope.
>
>MT Imperial Encyclopedia (oh for an interactive version)
>
>High Guard - a fast construction system that I can do without a calculator
>(at a push) that also has a superb set of rules for capital ships
>(especially with TCS).
>
>M0 - flawed in some parts (no index, the FS problem) but a superb
>supplement non-the-less.
>
>Twilight's Peak - CT adventure campaign
>Murder on Arcturus Station - CT murder mystery, reuseable
>
>FFS (I don't really like the TNE system, but was impressed with this -
>however, it was a little too detailed for me. It was a shame no other
>'technical architecture profiles' came out).
>
>Things that I want to see for T4 - bug hunted rules - they are potentially
>the best yet.. fast, but with higher levels of detail available.
>
>Dom, FWIW
>
>

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Feel the guilt / like shackles round your feet / like a halo in reverse"
                     Depeche Mode "Violator"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 21:54:29 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Campaign write up (LONGISH)

>Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 00:12:27 +0100
>To: Traveller
>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: Campaign write up (LONGISH)
>Cc:
>Bcc:
>X-Attachments:
>
>I just restarted playing after an absence of a few years, deciding to
>return to MT as I hadn't run for a while, and it was my true love! (Except
>for my wife ;-) ). Then I came across T4 and decided to try that out. The
>following forms part of the notes for the players that I generate after
>every session - if you want to see any more let me know...
>
>The players -
>Jack (Virgo, a stroppy ex-Merchant female with a rich daddy and designs on
>a shipping line)
>Adrian (later Rob) (James Hunter, a taciturn ex-marine)
>Martin (Blueberry, a very laid back ex-Scout)
>Jason (Colt, a slightly paranoid ex-Navy Lt)
>
>Dom
>------
>SPOILER NOTICE - CONTAINS WRITE UPS OF PUBLISHED ADVENTURES
>SPOILER NOTICE - CONTAINS WRITE UPS OF PUBLISHED ADVENTURES
>SPOILER NOTICE - CONTAINS WRITE UPS OF PUBLISHED ADVENTURES
>SPOILER NOTICE - CONTAINS WRITE UPS OF PUBLISHED ADVENTURES
>SPOILER NOTICE - CONTAINS WRITE UPS OF PUBLISHED ADVENTURES
>SPOILER NOTICE - CONTAINS WRITE UPS OF PUBLISHED ADVENTURES
>
>Chapter 1 - Beginnings.
>
>It is the year 1105, the place the gas giant moon Regina in the Spinward
>Marches sector, and you have all mustered out from your respective
>military services. These were: the Imperial Interstellar Scout Service
>(Blueberry), the Imperial Interstellar Navy (Colt), the Imperial Marines
>(James Hunter) and the Merchant Navy (Ms. Virgo Epstein).
>
>At this turning point in your careers, you all have ambitions. Ambitions
>that led Hunter and Epstein to meet at a bar in the Startown, the neutral
>Imperial controlled area by Regina Downport. Blueberry and Colt had met in
>a drinking binge earlier that week, and were presently sampling the local
>beverages in that same bar. By a masterful piece of intuition, you guessed
>that you were all interested in similar lines of work, and began talking.
>Then a fracas developed in the bar, as some drunken sailors picked a fight
>with the Scout personnel that patronise the bar. This was turning nasty,
>until Blueberry saved the day, and frightened the drunkards away with a
>flobee and some bullets in the roof of the establishment.
>
>You got to talking to the senior Scout Administrator present
>(Administrator Galaden) and eventually, he mentioned that he had two jobs
>that you might be interested in. You agreed to meet the next morning, and
>went to your respective homes wondering what the next day would bring.
>
>After you had managed to get past his overly protective and officious
>secretary, you set down to talking. Two tasks were offered, and accepted.
>The first was to fly the body of a recently deceased Scout back to his kin
>on the planet Yorbund, [PLOT HOOK for Shadows] and the second, to survey
>the local worlds that you passed, with a cash bonus for encouragement. The
>real bonus of the deal was the loan of a Scout/Courier, the Aurora
>
>(The above adventure used parts of 'The Imperial Fringe' CT Introductory
>Adventure.)
>
>Chapter 2 - The Rings of Forboldn IV.
>
>You boarded the Aurora, to find that she was, as promised, a standard 100
>Ton Scout/Courier, with much of the specific survey and communications
>equipment removed. However, enough remained for you to survey planets as
>you travelled through the subsector, and beyond. The previous owner's
>taste in decor wasn't everything that you liked, but that could be altered
>as time moved on, and funds permited. The ship had enough fuel to make
>orbit, and thanks to the agreement you'd entered into with the scout
>service you had access to their facilities at starports, scout bases, and
>way stations (links in the interstellar communication Xboat network).
>
>After spending some time bickering over which cabin was whose [almost got
>to gunplay], you took off, and headed away from the gas giant moon Regina,
>sector and subsector capital. The flight out to refueling was almost
>without incident, aside from some awkward questions from a naval patrol
>cruiser. You dived into the gas giant atmosphere, successfully scooping in
>hydrogen gas for use as fuel, before heading out system to jump to your
>next destination, the planet Hefry.
>
>7 days later, you emerged from jumpspace, and headed for the 'high port'
>in orbit over Hefry. The docking fees were exhorbitant here - 1000 Cr for
>the week, almost ten times normal. Fortunately, the scout base filled your
>fuel tanks up for nothing, and the life support costs weren't too high.
>You moved out from orbit and spent three days surveying the planet , and
>then headed out to the minimum safe distance for engaging jump drive, 100
>planetary diameters, to set course for your next stop, the planet Forboldn.
>
>Until recently, Forboldn was a reserve world, but is currently the focus
>of the Imperial Ministry of Colonisation - over the next twenty years,
>thousands of colonists will arrive at the planet, many part of the minor
>criminal (relocation) programme, where exile on a colony and amnesty are
>exchanged for long sentences. The system has no scout base, so you planned
>to use the ringed gas giant Forboldn IV to refuel.
>
>Jump was, as ever, uneventful, and you emerged and headed towards the gas
>giant. As you closed on the rings, you detected a sensor anomaly. Using
>the active sensors this proved to be a tumbling Free Trader (called the
>'Rubicon') with a small cutter attached by a docking tube, unresponsive to
>all communication attempts. The Aurora was maneuvered close by, and
>everyone apart from Colt got into vacuum suits to board the ship and
>investigate. Hunter successfully reached the ship, and through careful
>positioning of a 'hanging' line you all boarded the ship, entering through
>the starboard cargo bay, which was open. The cargo deck was empty aside
>from a crate and signs of foul play.
>
>Searches of the ship and engineering revealed that the vessel had been
>disabled from within by a traitor, and was in the service of the Imperium.
>The crew and raiders appeared to have been spaced at variuos times during
>the takeover. Certainly, no one was left alive on the Rubicon or the
>Cutter. The Trader's mission appeared to relate to the purchase of a new
>laser defence system for the Imperial Navy, with rivalry between the
>subsidiaries of two megacorporations, Ling Standard Products and
>Interstellarms. However, you could not get any further information, as the
>mission's leader had strong encryption on his datapad.
>
>As you stabilised the Trader, there were sounds of trouble from the Aurora
>- Pirates! They had come to investigate what was going on and why their
>colleagues hadn't replied. Colt was soon in a firefight with two boarders,
>pitting his 9mm automatic and a shotgun against two SMGs. Needless to say,
>he was soon badly wounded, and only saved by the intervention of the rest
>of the crew (and the ref). (Blueberry made quite a mess of the cockpit
>with his armourpiercing rounds!).
>
>Meanwhile, the rest of the pirates who had arrived started to open up with
>the laser on their 'fast boat'. Virgo decided to experiment with the
>Trader's weapon systems, and managed to use the self help tutorial on the
>gun  to hit the Pirates' ship [intervention from me again, but the player
>is now using XP for developing gunnery]. This tumbled out of control into
>the ring when its fuel tanks were shattered, condemning the Pirates to a
>slow, lingering death.
>
>You acquired the Trader's cargo (a prototype point defence laser) and
>installed it into the turret on your ship. The electronics and computer
>software still need work, but it was sufficently good for the Navy not to
>notice that you had stolen their prototype when you docked.
>
>You handed over the Free Trader, and received a finder's bonus (100kCr!),
>which Virgo almost caused you to loose by insulting the local naval
>commander (Commodore John Snape). You spent the next seven days in
>detention whilst they checked over your story. However, nothing criminal
>came to the fore (luckily!) and you were released with the ominous comment
>"we'll be watching you so you'd better be careful". You collected Colt
>from the hospital where he had been recovering, and boarded the Aurora to
>plan your next move, 30 days after you first left Regina.
>
>(This chapter used parts of the scenario 'The Rubicon Cross' in the T4
>Rulebook.)
>
>
>
>
>

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Feel the guilt / like shackles round your feet / like a halo in reverse"
                     Depeche Mode "Violator"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 20:06:40 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Fans and Players

> So, who here is actually playing Traveller - any incarnation, with any 
> home rules; as long as you think of it as Traveller, it qualifies - right 
> now?  Who is involved in a game of Traveller, whether meeting daily, 
> weekly, or monthly?
> 
> Who's driving this cart, anyway? :)


Nice post, Joe.

From the categories you listed, I fit them all.  I'm definitely a 
fan--I've bought everything IG has released so far, own 90% of 
everything GDW put out, and I own of lot of the things put out for 
Traveller by licensees.

I'm a designer too.  You know that.  But, my forte is game mechanics 
and backgroud/story information (KBv2.0 and the Grand Adventure 
posts).  I am not as interested in designing ships, equipment, or 
vehicles, but give me a planet, and I'll design the hell out of it.

And, as for the most important part of your post, I'm a player as 
well.

I started my current campaign a year and a half ago.  I worked up a 
House system using the MT task system and the TNE game mechanics.  
Since, I switched to T4 as my base system, but I always tweak things 
that I think need tweaking--the task system and combat rules (see my 
latest post).

There's four players and me--with each player running two characters. 
 We meet every other Sunday to play, and so far, we are having a 
blast.

I've got four other players wanting to come in, but I let the group 
in on the decision to bring in new players.  We are all having such a 
good time that we don't want to screw it up with too many players or 
get somebody in that is not dedicated and will miss play dates.  I 
have a standing rule that if everyone doesn't show up, then we don't 
play.  I don't go in for that, "let so and so run my character 
tonight" stuff.  If you want to play in this game, you show up.

But, that hasn't been a problem.  I've got a great bunch of guys--two 
of them I've been RPGing with for 15 years.

Eventhough my game is set in the CT era, I have a lot of hopes for 
T4.  I don't mind buying the M0 stuff because I use it to supplement 
my M1100 game.

Traveller is a great game.  We're having a blast.

Kenneth. 

PS  Is JTAS #26 out yet? Or, did you just see an advance copy?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 21:08:14 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Fans and Players

On Sat, 24 May 1997, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> >From the categories you listed, I fit them all.  I'm definitely a 
> fan--I've bought everything IG has released so far, own 90% of 
> everything GDW put out, and I own of lot of the things put out for 
> Traveller by licensees.

It's sort of a sickness, isn't it?  :)   Always fun explaining to a 
significant other why we just _have_ to have X book, even tho it's $22.95 
retail (or, in some cases, $65 in an auction). :)  


> I'm a designer too.  You know that.  But, my forte is game mechanics 
> and backgroud/story information (KBv2.0 and the Grand Adventure 
> posts).  I am not as interested in designing ships, equipment, or 
> vehicles, but give me a planet, and I'll design the hell out of it.

Wonder where we'd be without the work done by DGP, 'way back when.  Oh, I 
suppose someone would have done it, eventually.  But they did such a 
damned fine job, it's amazing and breathtaking.  Makes it a real joy to 
design a world down to the last detail.


> And, as for the most important part of your post, I'm a player as 
> well.

Yup, your Grand campaign is well known around here. ;)


> I started my current campaign a year and a half ago.  I worked up a 
> House system using the MT task system and the TNE game mechanics.  
> Since, I switched to T4 as my base system, but I always tweak things 
> that I think need tweaking--the task system and combat rules (see my 
> latest post).

Yup, you've done some good work on the combat rules.  But, I was glad to 
see Greg made some additions to the combat system in EA, since not 
everyone has net access.  Speaking of which, are you planning on writing 
up any of your stuff for JTAS articles?


> I've got four other players wanting to come in, but I let the group 
> in on the decision to bring in new players.  We are all having such a 
> good time that we don't want to screw it up with too many players or 
> get somebody in that is not dedicated and will miss play dates.  I 
> have a standing rule that if everyone doesn't show up, then we don't 
> play.  I don't go in for that, "let so and so run my character 
> tonight" stuff.  If you want to play in this game, you show up.

Sounds like a good set of rules. Let the players decide who they play 
with, and let their peer pressure keep them all from slacking off.  Not 
bad. 


> PS  Is JTAS #26 out yet? Or, did you just see an advance copy?

Yup, it's out.  I have to go to the FLGS and pick up IG stuff just like 
everyone else. ;)  My FLGS got four copies of Pocket Empires and only one 
copy of JTAS 26 (he ordered four, but for some reason Chessex shorted 
him).  I picked up both on Friday, the day they all came in.  I'd imagine 
your FLGS should have them now - if not, next week at the latest.  
Although, I hear (gratifying) reports that Pocket Empires is selling out 
here and there.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh  |  Game Designer for Marc Miller's Traveller
_________________|  Atari 1200XL and Apple IIGS User and Programmer

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1363
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Sunday, May 25 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1364



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Fans and Players
Free Traders, Corps and Turnaround Time
Re: T4-Revised
re:Something positive
Re:casualties
Re:jump troops (longish)
Re: Anybody out there?
Re:  Fans and Players
Re: Ancients Unassisted Suicide Technology
Re: Fans and Players
Re: The need for SPEED!
Victoria's Secrets (For Real)
Re: Jump troops
Re: Jump Troops
Re: Fans and Players
Companions of the Road?
Re: Classic Traveller Question
Deck Plans

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 19:36:19 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@pop.goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: Fans and Players

> > So, who here is actually playing Traveller - any incarnation, with any 
> > home rules; as long as you think of it as Traveller, it qualifies - right 
> > now?  Who is involved in a game of Traveller, whether meeting daily, 
> > weekly, or monthly?
> > 
> > Who's driving this cart, anyway? :)

Player, Fan, Designer, GM. :-)

> PS  Is JTAS #26 out yet? Or, did you just see an advance copy?

JTAS and Pocket Empires are both out.  Picked up copies of both at 
the FLGS today.

Suz
 

Suzette C. Dollar
#traveller Channel Manager (Undernet/Myst)
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 03:16:07 -0700
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au>
Subject: Free Traders, Corps and Turnaround Time

Traveller background seems to imply that the Megacorporations would
dominate long-distance trade, leaving the short-haul stuff for Free
Traders and simplar types.

I think this is not consistent with the rules of Traveller, which in 
fact give a comparitive advantage to Corporate types in short-haul
trade (and thus force free traders onto the long-haul routes).

The key is turnaround time. A corporation has a trade station on the
planet that can purchase and stockpile cargos ahead of time. Once
the corp's ship comes in, you can load up and go in a day, leading
to about a total trip time of 9-11 days (1 day to jump point, 6-8
days in jump, 1 day from jump point, 1 day refuelling and shifting 
cargo). Given 350 trading days a year, this gives you about 35
jumps a year (plus the traditional 2 weeks for maintainence).

Free traders need, on average, three days to find a cargo. Therefore,
their total trip time is 12-14 days - about 27 jumps a year. This
means you make a *lot* less profit on short-haul cargo than the
corporate types do.

OTOH imagine a free trader operating along a main on a long-haul
route between two planets 15 parsecs apart. It works on a cycle
of jump point-gas giant/starport-refuel-jump point-jump, at
9-11 days per jump. The "downtime" finding a cargo is still only
three days, except it is over 150 trading days rather than 10.
Thus you are a lot closer to the big boys in terms of efficiency.

Of course, you will need to be able to wear the fact that your
revenue comes in in bi-annaual lumps and you are going to need
a cargo that is profitable to haul that far (probably luxury
goods to or from a sector capital to a hi-pop world, or military
goods from a world of the highest available technology).

Anyway, I think long-haul cargo is a lot more "travellerish" than
doing a glorified postal service between two or three neighbouring
systems.

Ian Whitchurch

PS Remember, your freight is someone else's speculative cargo.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 22:00:37 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@orca.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: T4-Revised

>Why don't we, here on the list, define exactly for IG the things in
>Book 1 that we would like to see changed before T4-Revised comes out?

1. Consistent and scalable design rules. The current rules for vehicles,
firearms, and starships are an inconsistent hodge-podge scattered over
several books. Not only does this make design needlessly difficult, it
makes any kind of consistency impossible because items have radically
different technology and statistics depending on which design rules you
use. Personally, I like the vehicle design rules from Central Supply
Catalog best. They are comprehensive, seem to work well at different scales
(from tools to space colonies), and have a minimum of fake units.

2. Consistent and scalable combat rules. This one really bugs me; the
combat rules for people, vehicles, and starships are all so radically
different they may as well be for different games. I can't even convert
between the different systems, so combined actions are impossible. Even
learning the various rules is a pain because they are all so detailed yet
apply in only specific instances. There should be some general combat
sequence, applicable to everything from personal combat to fleet actions,
with various levels of detail for special situations. Doesn't T4 promise on
page 5 a game system with "simpler structure ... while allowing for
multiple levels of complexity"? A laudable goal, which Traveller has not
fulfilled IMHO.

3. Abolish 'fake' units. By this I mean things like USPs, computer ratings,
crew factors, maintenance points, anything that has no 'real world'
meaning. Fake units are easy for designers to come up with, but are a
nightmare for referees because they are impossible to describe to players,
convert to other units, check for accuracy, or to measure realistically.
There are plenty of units, like Newtons, megabits per second, hours, and so
on that referees already understand, work well in the real world, and for
which there are plenty of real measurements for in engineering texts. Use
them.

3. A separation of game mechanics and background. One of the things I liked
about CT was its generic science-fiction rules. Now I have nothing against
the Third Imperium setting, far from it, but I think the rules would be
simpler and the background more understandable if each were understandable
in isolation and withought having to know the other. Sure, the game should
focus on the Third Imperium, but it should be possible to run other
settings using vanilla Traveller rules. The character generation sequence
is the worst offender; perhaps it could be broken into a "background and
career" section which generates the character's history and a
"characteristics" sections which generates the statistics.

4. Greater emphasis on role-playing. The current combat and task systems
are too stat-oriented and have very little latitude for player action to
make a difference. There are some rules that do reward role-playing; the
personal pools give individuals some tactical choices in combat, and the
Role-Playing Space Combat System makes crews actually useful in space
combat. On the other hand, the T4 task system makes a few randomly-rolled
characteristics almost completely determine success and makes the wider
variety of player-chosen skill stats practically useless. Similarly,
characters have little opportunity to influence trade or reaction rolls.
There should be something like the personal pools for trade and reaction.

5. Consistent technology rules. By this I don't mean a strict list of what
gizmos are available at each tech level, I mean guidelines for what effect
Tech Level has on various technologies. The only thing I liked about TNE
was the Fire, Fusion and Steel book. In it, tech levels were given
separately for each technology, so GMs could choose whatever technology
they want for their campaign and have a useful progression of tech levels.
For example, you could postulate teleportation but no jump drive at TL 12,
and FF&S gave stats for increasing levels of these technologies. Good idea.

6. Optional or variant rules. There have been a lot of alternate rule ideas
posted to the TML. Some of these are good enough to publish, at least as
variant rules. Also, there should be optional rules for things like combat,
design, research, and explorations for GMs who want to go into more detail
for such adventures.

These are the changes I would like to see in T4-revised.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 00:33:21 -0500
From: The Stump Family <stumps@earthlink.net>
Subject: re:Something positive

After reading your post I feel I should respond. Before going on,
remember, the following is not meant as an 'attack' on the author, but
as a critique of his post. I am going to respond to his suggestions in
order;
1)In this point you suggest that IG invest a great deal of money in a
product that you state (in point 2)) that you would not buy. Why would
anyone else, then?
2)I am unfamiliar with the system mentioned and would like to see it,
myself.
3)I agree that the website could be updated more often - if needed. As
for an 'official' storyline... these days that is technically what the
IG staff determines it to be. If they don't like Virus and don't want it
to have 'officially' happened - it didn't.
4)Being insulting, even unintentionally, doesn't usually convince others
to agree with you. I know several 'White men who graduated...' etc. who
are quite creative; I don't think anyone's life (with the possible
exception of Marc Miller) should 'revolve' around Traveller (Also,
employees of IG would have their careers revolve around the game by
definition).
5)no comment.
6)Forcing all potential writers, etc. to study and take a test will cut
down on time? Cut down on contributors, more likely. Besides - One: most
contributors are freelancers/fans/players, so are pretty familiar with
the system. Two: Existant rules, etc. are not religious text. The
NFL/NBA/NHL/ etc. are each $billion+ industries with well-defined,
well-known rules - rules that are modified, deleted, and added to
constantly, all to make the games better. Why can't IG and Marc Miller
try to improve the game? Because it may change the implementation of a
20 year old rule? That may be the idea.
7)As far as the 'quality' complaint (which I read a great deal here), I
own a great deal of old CT stuff and am acquiring more and more T4 stuff
all of the time - and I think T4 is as good, perhaps better. Go to a
good Convention, pull out some CT and MT stuff, lay it next to T4 stuff
- - equal or better binding process, better card and paper stock, great
color art, etc. I am often comvinced that a great deal (not all) of the
complaints about quality have a 'good old days' ring to them. The good
old days were 5.5"x8.5" low- to medium- quality stock books without art
and with virtually no explainatory text, and a great deal of
number-crunching (which at least convinced me to get a degree in
physics).

Again, Harold, I am not trying to flame you, just start a dialog of
what's good, what's bad, and why.

 -Rick

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:14:34 -0500
From: The Stump Family <stumps@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re:casualties

Ah, something that I (unfortunately) have real-world experience with....
The modern battlefield have gotten either much more lethal or much more
'prone to maim' - depending on the intent of the enemy. Ferinstance,
tomahawk cruise missles have about 12 (declassified) warheads ranging
from nukes to bunker busters to 'low-power'
fragmentation(anti-personnel). If a general wants to destroy a unit
(i.e. kill as many enemy soldiers as possible) he can choose a
'high-end' warhead; if he wants to 'minimize fatalities while
maintaining a high level of impact upon enemy unit cohesion and
battlefield effectiveness' (i.e., riddle them with shrapnel) he will
choose a different warhead. 
 Options like these are available for virtually all levels of combat (As
a grenadier in the Gulf War I had flares, armor-piercing, thermite,
airburst, and buckshot rounds available for my grenade launcher (and by
available, I mean I could load and fire one in about 3 seconds). The
International Commitee (sp?) on War (the Geneva Convention folks) are
considering outlawing a type of laser weapon designed specifically to
(permanently) blind enemy troops. In general, weapons are getting more
accurate and soldiers have more options.
 One interesting side-effect is that civilians are LESS likely to be
harmed (For the U.S. Air Force to have done the same damage to Iraq
using WWII tech. Iraqi civilian casualties may have been in the hundreds
of thousands)
  --Interesting note - Soldier magazine recently announced that the U.S.
Army is in initial trials of a powered exoskeleton with kevlar panels to
resist small arms, on-board air filtration, commo, and imaging, and
strength-enhancing servomotors at the joints. Can you say battle
dress?--

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 01:43:32 -0500
From: The Stump Family <stumps@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re:jump troops (longish)

As a former member of an Army Airborne unit;
 a 45 minute lead time is pretty good, really. Even with grav vehicles
getting soldiers in place to fight will take a while. Before I staged a
troop-drop, though, as the invading general I would want one of two
scenarios
 1)A 'beseiged' world to drop on - Orbiting ships bombarding defenses
for days (or weeks), damaged infra-structure EVERYWHERE, enemy troops in
deep bunkers, and light-fighters making near-surface raids. In this
situations jump troops are there to make a 'bridge-head' (the Airborne
term is 'air-head', so I guess the jump term would be 'space-head') for
follow-on invasion forces; The jump troops secure a perimeter that
allows landing craft to bring in grav-tanks, G-carriers, and (a LOT)
more soldiers.
 2)surprise drop - three-four stealthed drop ships slip in and drop a
DIVISION of jump troops near a strategic objective that is not heavily
defended by ground forces (say, a medium to large city that has a
downport and isn't home to a grav-tank division) - their first objective
is to secure the down port for a space-head. They may be followed by 1-4
more divisions of jump-troops to help secure the city, especially if it
is industrial or high-population. As far as nukes, this will leave the
defenders with 2 choices; nuke in the high atmosphere and
electromagnetically pulse a major city and starport or nuke in the low
atmosphere and cause shock damage to the same city (indeed, as an
invader, I may very well send in a few stealthed high-megaton nukes 10
minutes ahead of the first wave - this would 'pulse' sensors on the
surface, disrupt commo, confuse and terrify civilians in the city, etc.)
Another 'prep' option is to have a commando team drop into the area from
a stealthed ship via re-entry kits a few hours before to perform a bit
of sabotage just prior to the jump ships arrival. 
 
 45 minutes can be a long time if you're woken up by the sound of an
Imperial gauss rifle :)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 03:28:54 -0400
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: Anybody out there?

At 08:00 PM 5/21/97 -0600, you wrote:
>This is very strange ... I've gotten no messages whatsoever from the TML
>since early last night, instead of the dozens I normally get ... I pray we
>haven't killed each other off. Is anybody still alive?

It's still going, Dave, but you aren't the only one having this problem,
apparently.  Try resubbing, or wait to see if the list gods fix whatever
the problem is.

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 04:14:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re:  Fans and Players

Joe asks:

>So, who here is actually playing Traveller - any incarnation, with any 
>home rules; as long as you think of it as Traveller, it qualifies - right 
>now?  Who is involved in a game of Traveller, whether meeting daily, 
>weekly, or monthly?

I'm playing in Derroch's campaign, and we generally meet weekly. Last time
I was Dr. Ilbren Dinaskir, a _completely_innocent_ Vilani archaeo-linguist
with an Indiana Jones Complex. This time I'm Perlis Alyeska Dalal,
omni-competent lowlife Scout and Recording Angel of Doom. Derroch's
throwing us into the Third Imperium's equivalent of the Oklahoma Land Rush.
Gonna be big fun.

Another TMLer, Ross, is also playing - as Merchant 2nd Officer Amr Santayema.

Oddly, I don't quite qualify as a Traveller "Fan", at least not by Joe's
definition: I've never played Traveller at a convention, and have only ever
bought three (3) Traveller products: the Traveller Book (hc), T4 Book 1,
and CSC. (Starships I won, courtesy Joe himself, in the first TML contest.)
Most of the other books are not directly useful to me, as the campaign I've
been working on is not set in the Imperium Universe. Which does sort of
make me a "designer", I guess; certainly there's enough of my stuff out
there on the Web. I will probably acquire EA at some point, and maybe the
T4 Deluxe, but I don't pick up the Milieu stuff because I'd just have to
rewrite it all anyway.

Of course I am a 'fan'. I've loved Traveller since my first game, way back
in 1979 or so - wherein my PC was so abruptly swallowed up by one of those
ridiculous Psionic Trappers. And so, I sometimes suspect, was I...

        G-M-G

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"The courts may not work anymore, but so long as everyone
      is videotaping everyone else, we'll be okay."
                    -- Marge Simpson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 03:58:26 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Ancients Unassisted Suicide Technology

> Hello:
> 
> I and my Traveller GM would like to thank the lister who posted their id=
ea (?) about the Ancients item: a black box with buttons of red and blue o=
n either side.  (Who'd'a thought Kavorkian (sp?) was > 
> In our concluding session of Fate of the Skyraiders it disposed handily =
of a PC who 3needed killin1.=B2  A true Darwin nominee who, after many att=
empts, finally got what he had been asking for and mana> 
> Thanks!  :-)

"You just can't go around killin' people just because they have no 
reason to live."

- --comedian, I forget who.

Kenneth. 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 03:58:25 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Fans and Players

> Yup, you've done some good work on the combat rules.  But, I was glad to 
> see Greg made some additions to the combat system in EA, since not 
> everyone has net access.  Speaking of which, are you planning on writing 
> up any of your stuff for JTAS articles?

I've thought of rewriting one of my short stories, setting it in Year 
0 and moving the location from the Spinward Marches to the M0 
campaign, and sending that in.

I've also thought of presenting JTAS with KBv2.0, but I'm not sure if 
they would print it.

> Sounds like a good set of rules. Let the players decide who they play 
> with, and let their peer pressure keep them all from slacking off.  Not 
> bad.

Yes, we have a pretty straight schedule.  I've been down the road 
where one person can't play, so we wait a week.  Then another person 
can't play, and we are put off another week--and so on and so on 
until it's two or three months in between games.

Everybody forgets what happened last.  It takes a while to get back 
into what's going on--I just spend so much time setting up the game 
that I want to keep up the momentum.

We play two Sundays a month--set up a month in advance so that people 
can work their schedules around it.

Four months a year, there are five Sundays in the month, and we add a 
Wednesday play date during those months giving us three play dates 
in that month.

Our play schedule is pretty ridgid.  Once all agree to a play date, 
we play.  There is no backing out unless something extreme happens.

In any case, if we don't get in the specified number of play dates 
within the month, we carry them over to the next month and "catch 
up".

Doing this maintains 28 five to seven hour game sessions per year--a 
reasonable number given everybody's career, wives, family, and other 
interests.

> Yup, it's out.  I have to go to the FLGS and pick up IG stuff just like 
> everyone else. ;)  My FLGS got four copies of Pocket Empires and only one 
> copy of JTAS 26 (he ordered four, but for some reason Chessex shorted 
> him).  I picked up both on Friday, the day they all came in.  I'd imagine 
> your FLGS should have them now - if not, next week at the latest.  
> Although, I hear (gratifying) reports that Pocket Empires is selling out 
> here and there.

Yes, I heard that PE was out, but I called and my store hasn't gotten 
it yet.  I'm always two or three weeks behind the TML on a new 
product because of this.

I'll call again tomorrow to see if I can get them.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 05:50:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: The need for SPEED!

In a message dated 97-05-22 17:15:03 EDT, you write:

> >         During the rapid fire portion of the competition, the shooters
fire 5
>  > rounds at the target in a 6 second time period. Now, I'm not a great
>  > shot ( Dex of about 8-9, Pistol of about 1), but I managed to hit the
>  > target 5 out of 5 on most ocassions. However, in T4, this would have
>  > been impossible. Assuming Dex 8, my target number would have been 2 (8 /
>  > 5 = 1.6, round to 1, + 1 for pistol skill ) on 2.5D6 (range of 25
>  > yards). Since the lowest possible roll on 2.5D6 is 3, the shot would
>  > have been impossible. even if you rounded up, the target would be 3,
>  > which would have made it fairly difficult to hit as many times as I did.
>  > And this isn't even taking into account the relatively small size of the
>  > target.

Remember that the gun shot rules are intended to see who gets wounded or hit,
rather than track every single bullet.
But you could write a task like this:

To shoot a bulls eye (5 rounds in 6 seconds).
(Dex + Pistol) < Difficult (2.5D)

At Dex 8 and Pistol-1, that's a 57% chance of success.

OR,

	Special Cases: Some general rules are made to be broken. The details of task
structure may be violated in order to achieve realistic results. For example,
although Dexterity and Education are associated characteristics for Art, the
very special task to create a true Work of Art arguably depends totally on
Art skill.

To shoot a bulls eye (5 rounds in 6 seconds).
(Dex + Pistol) < Difficult (2.5D)
Special Case (trained competition event).

Special case reflects that this is an "athletic" event with specific
circumstances for which one trains specifically.

OR,

If this is a one-time event which the character just happens to become
involved in, Spectacular Success would achieve the bulls eye (and Spectacular
Failure would probably wound someone.

OR,

If you think this sort of thing is commonplace for your specific character,
then it might be an easy task and we just ignore rolling. If you are applying
it to resisting some thug in the street, then the circumstances are totally
different anyway. And I would argue that in that case, you probably wouldn't
get 5 shots in 6 seconds all in a bullseye painted on the thugs chest.
Trained police rarely achieve that either.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 97 07:42:29 -0400
From: FKiesche@concentric.net
Subject: Victoria's Secrets (For Real)

Greetings All:

My first posting of this message appears to blown up...so let's try again.

And now for something completely different, other than the usual 
TML-bitching (would you believe I'm at least 80 digests behind...you guys 
type too much!).

I finally tracked down the novel that Victoria (Spinward Marches, see 
JTAS#2 for writeup) is based on. It is Prisoners of the Sky, by C.C. 
MacApp (Lancer Books, 1969...original price $0.75, sigh, I paid a bit 
more for it!). 

The cover: Our hero in a white uniform, with goggles slung around his 
neck. There's a hose drapped around his shoulder, breathing gear? In the 
background is a blimp, behind that is a orange colored moon criss-crossed 
by lines (cracks?) and craters (which was something like Albert, 
Victoria's moon, if I remember right).

The back text is also pretty fun:

- --begin quote--

POISON PLANET

Earth colonized Durrent, a strange world of high mesas and poison 
valleys, where men could live only on the highest peaks. There were other 
stars to colonize, and better worlds--but space was vast. There was no 
way off Durrent until the chance visit of another wandering starship. The 
men of Earth were there to stay.

Even though much of hte planet was forbidden, locked behind the barriers 
of poison gas, the colonies grew and became separate city-states. Then 
war broke out, and one young Fleet officer of Mesa Lowry, armed only with 
an outmoded training ship and a crew of half-trained civilians, found 
that the future of his world rested on the outcome of his battle to clear 
his family name of dishonor!

- --end quote--

I'll post a review of the book after I get to it. C.C. MacApp only had a 
half-dozen or so titles to his name. The Encyclopedia of SF (Clute, et 
al) writes fairly positively of him. 

Laterish!



Frederick Paul Kiesche III
(FKiesche@concentric.net)
(Traveller since 1977!)

"Sing to me of the man, Muse, the man of twists and turns
driven time and again off course, once he had plundered
the hallowed heights of Troy."

- --The Odyssey by Homer (translated by Robert Fagles)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 08:16:29 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Jump troops

On Sat, 24 May 1997, David J. Golden wrote:
 
> 	Well, yes, that's my goal. I'd rather play D&D than prove Robert Heinlein
> himself was wrong! (And don't get me started about that hollywood
> abomination about the book coming out ....).
> 
> 	Let me repeat--my goal is NOT to prove jump troops wouldn't exist. My goal
> is to figure out HOW jump troops could work!

Didn't Heinlein mention that there were 'retros' on the drop capsule? I
know he did talk about dropping them at zero velocity compared to the
planet, but he too was never one to let technical details get in the way
of a good story. Perhaps they're dropped in a lot faster and use retro
rockets to slow themselves...after all, the way he described the sequence
of parachutes makes them seem to be moving at a lot faster than terminal
velocity.

Actually I always pictured 'jump' troops as being 'meteoric assault
troops' IE: they actually do come in fast, brake at the last minute really
hard, and then land.

Still, a few good air bursts 'a la' the old Missile Command game should
take them out if they're seen coming...which is, I think the key here. As
someone, maybe even you, I don't remember, said, the LZ has to be softened
up a LOT before any ground trops can be committed...you need to make sure
they can't get off those air bursts very effectively if at all.

The other big use for drop troops, imho, probably the biggest use, is
covert insertion of small groups. The near space of any planet in the
Imperium is going to be full of junk making meteoric re-entry all the
time...if you've been putting stuff into orbit and flying starships for
hundreds or thousands of years, the current, not inconsequential load of
garbage we have in orbit here on Terra is going to seem like white glove
spotless. 

The defensive eyes and ears of a planet will be in space, and a few drop
capsules could get lost in the garbage in orbit.

This, however brings up another point entirely, how do ships move through
all this crap?  Maybe that's the reason for the minimum armor on all
starships being pretty thick.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 04:04:15 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Jump Troops

How much difference would atmospheric braking make?

Would it cut the Delta Vee requriements down significantly, or alternativly
allow a faster fly-by? Could it give a short enough drop time to stop the
capsules being toasted (ignoring ROF 800 lasers for now)?

I don't think stealthing a drop capsules worth much considering the noise a
re-entry makes.


R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 11:20:34 +0000
From: "Tim Reynolds" <tim@premier1.premier.net>
Subject: Re: Fans and Players

Hi,


Fan:  Someone who buys Traveller stuff, goes to conventions that feature 
Traveller games and dealer tables, and/or talks about Traveller a lot.  I 
think this is the broadest category.  Pretty much anyone who buys more 
than a couple of Traveller products could be considered a Fan.

Ok I am a fan then again by this difination I am a fan of most RPG 
just look at my shelfs : )

Designer:  Someone who designs systems, background material, or items for 
Traveller.  I think Traveller's Player and Fan population includes a heck 
of a lot of these people - a higher per capita ratio than any other game, 
I'd wager.  It's so open to design, whether that be ships, weapons, house 
rules, or what-have-you.  A lot of the folks here on TML are designers.

I try to be a designer.  I would do more if I had more time, thats 
what I keeo telling myself anyways.

Player:  Someone who actually plays Traveller.  This is what it's all 
about; the players are the ones driving this cart.  Without them, there's 
no purpose in the Fans and Designers existing.  Moreover, I'd hasten to add 
that you don't get to be a player forever just because you played at one 
time.  Either you're currently a player, or you're not, depending on 
whether you're currently involved in a Traveller game (whether as player 
or referee).

Yes I can say I am a player, I run the ISBA (not much action right 
now), I am in an IRC game with Twolf that I realy like a lot, and I 
am an in Eris PBeM game if I ever manage to make it up those seven 
flights of stairs : )



Who's driving this cart, anyway? :)

You mean there is no driver, that explains every thing : )


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh  |  Game Designer for Marc Miller's Traveller
_________________|  Atari 1200XL and Apple IIGS User and Programmer

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 18:52:45
From: Paolo Marino <marino@inrete.it>
Subject: Companions of the Road?

According to Shadis Magazine, Marc Miller has signed a contract with
Wisconsin based Corsair Publishing for a new *Fantasy* RPG titled
_Companions of the Road_ which should be out in August.

Does anybody knows more about this?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 10:59:58 PDT
From: "Paul Zumstein" <pzumstein@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Classic Traveller Question

>Subject: Classic Traveller Question
>Date: Wed, 21 May 97 17:59:30 +0100
>From: Niko Wieleba <scarab1@pacbell.net>
>To: <Traveller@MPGN.COM>
>
>Hi there:
>
>This is probably a dumb question, but I have looked for this bit of 
>information before in the past and not been able to find it:
>
>Where do I find the cost and specifics of adding a fuel refinery to a 
>ship for CT?
>
>Likely it is just something I have overlooked -- or it is lurking 
>somewhere I have not found yet.
>
>Thanks in advance for your help!
>
>Niko
>scarab1@pacbell.net
>

I don't think there was such a thing as a fuel refinery until 'High Guard' (book 
5).  I do remember something about scout and navy craft not needing refined fuel 
though.

PZ



- ---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
- ---------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 13:01:02 +0000
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Deck Plans

I'm looking for some deck plans.  Maybe some of you can help.

I need plans for a 200 ton type VA Vargr Trader and for a very large
ship--the 3000 ton type AT Freighter.

If you know where I can find these, then please let me know--I would
appreciate it!

Kenneth.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1364
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, May 26 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1365



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Metator/IGS Bug Report
Re: Jump Troops
Re: fans and players
Re: Jump troops
Re: TML Helps Out!  (was FS data - what to do?)
Re: IG Pricing Policy
Re: Anyone going to BayCon?
Re: Eris' Movement Rules
Core Subsector
Re: Ancients/Grandfather
Re: Core Subsector
Re: Jump Troops
World Building
Re: Deck Plans
Re: Core Subsector
Meson Radiation
Double messages?
re:Something positive
Re: ANCIENT Grandfather

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 25 May 1997 17:59:48 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Metator/IGS Bug Report

I've uploaded a new version of Metator to the web site
<www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/Traveller/software.html> Minor bug
fixes and enhancements only.  At Glenn's request, the next release will
incorporate improved export features.

I will now try to fix the "quit-without-error" problem that some Powerbook
users have reported with Imperial Grand Survey.  

Anyone wanting faster software releases in invited to help me mark papers, or
better yet to teach my classes :-)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 12:21:30 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Troops

At 04:04 am 05/26/97 +1200, you wrote:
>How much difference would atmospheric braking make?
>
>Would it cut the Delta Vee requriements down significantly, or alternativly
>allow a faster fly-by? Could it give a short enough drop time to stop the
>capsules being toasted (ignoring ROF 800 lasers for now)?

	I just got some figures on atmospheric reentry, but I haven't had any time
to look at them or update my worksheet. But the short answer is that it
will have some effect, depending on how steep a reentry angle you want. The
steeper a reentry angle, the more delta-V you have to apply--you've got to
be in a tighter trajectory when you reenter the atmosphere. And you want a
fairly steep reentry angle, because shallow angles just skip you off.

>I don't think stealthing a drop capsules worth much considering the noise a
>re-entry makes.

	I won't help you be undetected, but it might make it a little bit harder
to get a targeting lock. On the other hand, once an IR-homing interceptor
gets into your general area, you're glowing like a great big bullseye.

	The key factor is going to be reducing the reentry time, and I've already
got a bunch of ideas on that. Any more would certainly be appreciated,
though ...


- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 09:52:28 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: fans and players

Joe wrote:
>So, who here is actually playing Traveller - any incarnation, with any
>home rules; as long as you think of it as Traveller, it qualifies - right
>now?  Who is involved in a game of Traveller, whether meeting daily,
>weekly, or monthly?

Me! I ref a T4/CT/MT blend once a week, alternating with a fantasy game run
by one of my players (ie he does four weeks, I do four weeks). We are
working through the CT adventures and just started Twilights' Peak.

I think that puts me in the player and fan part (having recently moved
house I frightened myself with how much Traveller stuff I own!). I do
design things (particularly starships with HG rules), but haven't really
used FFS.

- --------------- Dom Mooney (dom@cybergoths.u-net.com)---------------
"The fall of Empire, Gentlemen, is a massive thing, however, and not easily
fought. It is dictated by a rising bureaucracy, a receding initiative, a
freezing of caste, a damming of curiousity - a hundred other factors."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Hari Seldon - Azimov's "Foundation"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 19:39:27 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Jump troops

At 12:46 PM 5/24/97 +0000, Hans wrote:
><snip> 
>
>[Long and realistic explanation of why jump-troopering is a high-risk
>occupation.]
>
>This is a perfect example of why I think it is a genuine mistake to get
>the real world too mixed up with game worlds. Jump troops are fun (They
>are also part of the Traveller background). Demonstrating that in real 
>life they would actually have the life expectancy of a Vargr stowaway on
>a K'Kree ship is something I really don't need to enjoy my Traveller
>games. I'd much rather have some (however unrealistic) figures for how 
>big a jump capsule is and how fast it gets down and how it has a 35 in 36
>chance of making it down safe. And if I have to violate a few laws of
>nature to achieve that desirable end then I'd rather not have my nose
>rubbed in it.
>
>When it comes to games reality is a good servant but a damn poor master.
>
>Of course, if the subsequent discussion results in demonstrating realistic
>ways to make jump troops feasible, then I withdraw my remark (in this case).
>Realistic is better than unrealistic  --  AS LONG AS YOU GET TO IMAGINE FUN
>STUFF ANYWAY!
>
>
>      Hans Rancke
>University of Copenhagen
>     rancke@diku.dk
>------------
>        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
>         events based on the individual situation."
>                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8
> 
>

Extremely good point. Given what we know of current reality; what do we need
to postulate to make jump troops work in planetary invasions? Are they only
for for attacks on worlds at or below some tech level?  Are they preceeded
by some massive EMP hit that blinds the local sensor systems so that no one
sees them come in, and so can not plot projected drop point? Is there only
one ship making a drop or do multiple ships, in different orbits, make runs
that would appear to be dropping troops? Ten ships, in ten different orbital
paths, each dropping a hundred capsules with ten different potential landing
points could be more than local defenses could handle simultaneously. Pick
the wrong group of drop capsules to target and you let the invaders land safely.


What are the modern analogies in paratroops?  Do we just fly over and jump
out where the enemy can see and hear us comming? Or are there specific
tactical steps that must prepare the site for a paratroop drop?

Garry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 12:46:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: TML Helps Out!  (was FS data - what to do?)

"Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com> wrote: 

>Wonderful, Ryan.  I'm keeping all of these posts in their own special 
>folder.  I just posted a letter to Courtney Solomon about this 
>project--we are now waiting to see if he will go for it.
>Any more volunteers for the TML-FS Project?

Sure, sounds like fun to me, count me in.


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 97 21:14 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: IG Pricing Policy

In-Reply-To: <l03102801af9ff867f63f@[131.217.29.75]>

<< However, what gets me is the starport problem - I'm sorry, but I don't
agree that there should be that many A class and B class starports.
Certainly not in M0 anyway. >>

Maybe it's all relative. What was good enough to be A in M0 might only be 
rated as B in 1100. Standards and definitions can change a lot in 1000 
years. Compare a modern 5-star hotel (colour TV, telephone, air 
conditioning, en suite bathroom, etc) with the equivalent c.1000AD (glass 
in the windows if you're lucky, a bed without too many fleas, hole in the 
wall to pee through...)

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 04:46:16 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: Re: Anyone going to BayCon?

> From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Anyone going to BayCon?
> Date: Tuesday, May 20, 1997 4:31 PM
> 
> At 07:12 AM 5/18/97 -0400, you wrote:
> >Ugh, which bay area?  San Francisco, Tampa, Botany...?
> 
> Oops.  San Francisco.

In that case, I won't be able to make it.  I moved to Florida 
four years ago.

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 97 16:41:49 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Eris' Movement Rules

On 05/24/97 at 05:59 AM,  "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
said:

> Your movement rules were better than mine.  Can you post them again 
> or send them to me in private--I'm trying to remember how you guaged 
> how long a character could run.  

Here's what I'm using:

        meter/6 sec     turns to exhaustion
Sprint  (STR+DEX)*2             END
Run     (STR+DEX)              END*50
Jogging (STR+DEX)*0.75       unlimited
Walking (STR+DEX)*0.50       unlimited

Atlethics Skill (not including any attribute) can be added to the sprint
meter/6 sec, if it's a pure sprint with no other actions taking place.

I guess jogging should have an endurance limit, but I haven't run into a
need for it.  Also the upper end of endurance for running doesn't model
marathon runners well at all, but *that* hasn't come up in a game
either. ;->

On another note, I actually use Agility rather than Dexterity for this,
and yes, I break that attribute in two:  Agility is foot speed, whole
body control and balance; Dexterity is hand speed, hand-eye coordination
and manual dexterity.  Another way of looking at it is Dexterity is for
the fingers, what Agility is for the feet.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 18:02:20 -0500
From: Alex Rebsch <grazzit@flash.net>
Subject: Core Subsector

Hi, I'm new to this list and I was wondering if anybody knows why there
is a discrepancy between the T4 book and the First Survey book in regard
to the Core Subsector?  The worlds are in different places and some are
gone. Any Info?


BTW I just created a traveller web page (small, but going to grow).


<underline><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>http://www.flash.net/~grazzit/traveller.html</color></underline> 


check it out!


Alex Rebsch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:17:45 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Ancients/Grandfather

On Sat, 24 May 1997, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> 
> > *deep breath*
> > 
> > You're right. Sorry about getting all snappy like that. You didn't tell 
> > me to shut up, of course (I said it was irrelevent, didn't I?).
> > I was still a bit riled up about all those other flamewars going on.
> > Apologies. (Must... defuse...TML... before... it... expl*BOOM*)
> 
> 
> Burn, baby,...ah, forget I said that.  :)
> 

Oh no! Kennth, not the KBL! - poor Ethan ;)

SaHua,

michl

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


A generals principle talent is to know his soldiers mentality and
gaining his confidence
Napoleon

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 19:46:35 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Core Subsector

On Sun, 25 May 1997, Alex Rebsch wrote:

> Hi, I'm new to this list and I was wondering if anybody knows why there
> is a discrepancy between the T4 book and the First Survey book in regard
> to the Core Subsector?  The worlds are in different places and some are
> gone. Any Info?

Hi Alex, welcome to the list.

The easy answer to your question is that somebody, somewhere, screwed up.

The more difficult answer is determining who screwed up, and how. :)  But, 
that's probably a fruitless pursuit anyway.  Doesn't make things any 
better.

First Survey is the officially correct version; it supercedes what was 
printed in T4.  So, you can safely ignore the subsector in T4...


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh  |  Game Designer for Marc Miller's Traveller
_________________|  Atari 1200XL and Apple IIGS User and Programmer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 12:46:04 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Troops

On Fri, 23 May 1997, David J. Golden wrote:

> I was playing around with with jump troops, wondering what size the
> launcher actually had to be, and came up with some interesting numbers. I
> basically started with the classical idea that drop troops are for surprise
> attacks.
[snip]

This is cool, but I have a few comments.  You assume they will be more
vulnerable then they should be.  The reason they seem to be vulnerable is
that they are not being backed up.  Historicaly no General in his right
mind would drop paratroopers (a close equivalent of JTroops ?) into a
combat zone without a) total air superiority and b) there is some kind of
combined naval/ground action at the same time.

[snip]
> If you assume your troopship jumps in undetected, and makes its hyperbolic
> approach stealthed and silent running (powered down, etc.), and assume
> nobody detects you until you fire up your thrusters for orbital injection,
> that leaves 5 minutes from the time you're first detected to the time you
> launch, for me to track you, figure out exactly where you're headed, and
> alert the defenses. That's not much time, is it. But the defenders still
> have 45 minutes to prepare for your troops landing, and as soon as they see
> the reentry trails, they know where that'll be. Assuming they don't airnuke
> you first ...

So, using my above premise of combined arms action, the planet being
targeted should have no space navy, the invading power controls the space
lanes.  The invaders should also have done some bombardment perhaps, and
suppressed local air power as much as possible.  The JTroops should only
be dropped in an area that already has friendly ground forces nearby for
support.  This way, the defenders are to worried about other factors (air
strikes, Space bombardment, ground incursion etc) to worry much about
JTroops, or if they are worried about Jtroopers, the other pressures on
the defender make the 45 minute reaction time to short.

So to recap, historicaly paratroopers have been used only when the
folowing assertions are true;

1) Complete air superiority is established (Germans over Crete, DDay)

2) Trailing ground forces are nearby (Arnheim, DDay, Russians in
   Manchuria)

3) Naval Support provided (DDay)

4) Surprise/Confusion is important (All of the above, Den Bien Phu)

So, if I continue to draw the same parallel between paratroopers and
Jtroopers then the above Traveller *equivalents* would also have to be
true.

Comments?

Michael




"There are no bad haircuts in cyberspace." 
- - Dave Barry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 20:33:48 -0500
From: "Keith Smith" <KeithASmith@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: World Building

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_01BC694A.F31D2080
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Greetings all,

I'm currently in the process of building a on-line world, a SF one. Mainly
intended for Traveler. But it well be able to be used in other systems as
well. Anyhow, I'm trying to drum up a little help. I've got some graphics
up and I currently working on the write to post to me site. Address is as
follows: http://www.gameverse.com/Rathe/default.asp
This world is on Gameverse a join effort in world building. However I would
like to get some other involved if possible. Most of the world's do far are
fantasy. Take a look and let me know




Keith Smith

Visit My Home Page at: http://www.gameverse.com/personal/rathe/
Visit the World of Rathe: http://www.gameverse.com/Rathe/default.asp
GameVerse at: http://www.gameverse.com/
Gary Gygax's VR at: http://www.gygax.com/


- ------=_NextPart_000_01BC694A.F31D2080
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">Greetings all,<br><br>I'm currently in =
the process of building a on-line world, a SF one. Mainly intended for =
Traveler. But it well be able to be used in other systems as well. =
Anyhow, I'm trying to drum up a little help. I've got some graphics up =
and I currently working on the write to post to me site. Address is as =
follows: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>http://www.gameverse.com/Rathe/default.asp</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>This world is on Gameverse a join effort in world =
building. However I would like to get some other involved if possible. =
Most of the world's do far are fantasy. Take a look and let me =
know<br><br><br><br><br>Keith Smith<br><br>Visit My Home Page at: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>http://www.gameverse.com/personal/rathe/</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>Visit the World of Rathe: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>http://www.gameverse.com/Rathe/default.asp</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>GameVerse at: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>http://www.gameverse.com/</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>Gary Gygax's VR at: <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>http://www.gygax.com/</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br><br><br></p>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></f=
ont></body></html>
- ------=_NextPart_000_01BC694A.F31D2080--

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 21:55:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Matrixs@aol.com
Subject: Re: Deck Plans

I too am looking for deckplans/schematics for a 800 ton scout cruiser. If
anybody has them (something of a visual aid) please E-mail me or give me a
heads up.

Thanks--Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 20:04:14 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Core Subsector

At 06:02 pm 05/25/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi, I'm new to this list and I was wondering if anybody knows why there is
>a discrepancy between the T4 book and the First Survey book in regard to
>the Core Subsector?  The worlds are in different places and some are gone.
>Any Info?

	***** INCOMING!!!! ***** TAKE COVER!!!! ***** SUB-C ASTEROIDS ON COLLISION
COURSE!!!! ***** ABANDON SHIP!!!! *****
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 22:22:34 -0400
From: Hugh Johnson <ratling@csrlink.net>
Subject: Meson Radiation

	I have two quick questions.  The first being is there an archive of past
digests from the TML and if there is where can I find it?  My second
question concerns meson weapons.  When a starship is hit by a meson weapon
it results in internal explosions and the release of radiation.  How long
will the the starship be radioactive?  Could anyone please give me
information on the level of radiation(rads?) per megajoule of the meson
weapon and what the the half life of that radiation would be?  Any
information remotely related to my question will be greatly appreciated.
This has to do with a boarding party entering a damaged vessel.

Hugh Johnson    mailto:ratling@csrlink.net   <:8}}}---

"Anything that happens, happens.  Anything that, in happening, causes
something else to happen, causes something else to happen.  Anything that,
in happening, causes itself to happen again, happens again.  It doesn't
necessarily do it in chronological order, though."      -- Douglas Adams,
Mostly Harmless

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 14:35:02 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Double messages?

I am getting old posts on the list being sent to me - anyone else having
strange experiences with the TML?





"There are no bad haircuts in cyberspace." 
- - Dave Barry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 23:33:34 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: re:Something positive

Rick writes: 

> 1)In this point you suggest that IG invest a great deal of money in a
> product that you state (in point 2)) that you would not buy. Why would
> anyone else, then?

   IG has pretty much lost me and many other present and former members
of this list as a customer.  However, the last I checked, we're not the
only ones with disposable income.  If IG plans on making money on this
game, they are going to have to try to keep their remaining customer
base and bring in new customers.  My proposed supplement would be a good
start.

> 2)I am unfamiliar with the system mentioned and would like to see it,
> myself.

   Send your letters to IG or Marc Miller.

> 3)I agree that the website could be updated more often - if needed.

   I seem to recall that TNS updates (or something similar) for Year
Zero were supposed to be entered "real time".  That is, each week we
were supposed to get new TNS posts for that week in Imperial news.  We
never got it.  There have been a number of other promises made in that
regard as well.

> As for an 'official' storyline... these days that is technically what the
> IG staff determines it to be. If they don't like Virus and don't want it
> to have 'officially' happened - it didn't.

   I hope this isn't IG's attitude, because if it is, what I'm hearing
is that nearly 20 years of storyline development is irrelevant.  Any old
Traveller publications are irrelevant.  Loyalty is irrelevant.  Long
time fan support is irrelevant.  You will be assimilated....

   Sorry for the Borg reference.  I know you don't speak for IG (or Marc
Miller for that matter).  Back last year, I warned those who hailed the
return of Marc Miller that those who expected a revised classic
Traveller, or "Traveller Done Right" would instead get "Traveller Done
Differently".  I take no satisfaction in being correct.

> 4)Being insulting, even unintentionally, doesn't usually convince others
> to agree with you. I know several 'White men who graduated...' etc. who
> are quite creative; I don't think anyone's life (with the possible
> exception of Marc Miller) should 'revolve' around Traveller (Also,
> employees of IG would have their careers revolve around the game by
> definition).

   The intent wasn't to insult but to make a point.  IG needs to make a
decision.  Do they want to try to recreate some of the look and feel of
classic Traveller, thus try to appeal to the old fan base, or do they
want to come up with a new system and a new story that attempts to drawn
in a new audience?  Trying to do a little of both (the apparent strategy
to this point) isn't accomplishing either goal.

   Should IG really want go in a radically different direction, if they
really want to shake things up and put out a *new* product that just so
happens to be called "Traveller" and that the majority of the market out
there (average age well below 30, who have never heard of Marc Miller,
and whose idea of sci-fi comes from movies not books) will buy, they
need to conduct a serious purge and start from scratch.  Hire people who
are young, hungry, and think their lives revolve around their work. 
People who do this stuff because they *love* it, not because they want
to supplement their incomes.  Coming up with a staff that is also
ethnically and gender diverse (name the last regular female creative
contributor to Traveller) would be a nice bonus.

   If IG is intent on doing something with the look and feel of the
original, then do it right.  Make sure the staff knows the background
history.  Bring back the good features of the game mechanics that have
appeared over the past 20 years (e.g. MT's task resolution system, TNE's
hit location charts, classic Traveller's richly detailed background with
well done adventures), not the bad ones (MT's constant errata problems,
TNE's ignorance of how astrophysics works, classic Traveller's overly
simplistic personal combat damage system).  But again, bring in people
who are dedicated to the project, people who can take the old wine, put
it in new bottles, and do it in a way that makes it appear fresher. 
This includes taking classic Traveller art and updating it for the
1990s.

> 6)Forcing all potential writers, etc. to study and take a test will cut
> down on time? Cut down on contributors, more likely.

   As the situation now stands, the freelance contributors to T4 know
more about the background of the story than the people supposedly on
staff.  I find this deplorable.  I suggest a test because it will save
time.  How?  As things stand now, Marc Miller has to review everything
to make sure it jibes with canon.  If there were more people who could
competently screen material, it would create a faster turnaround time as
far as editing is concerned, and would lead to fewer mistakes.

> Besides - One: most contributors are freelancers/fans/players, so are pretty familiar with the system. 

   See above.

> Two: Existant rules, etc. are not religious text. The
> NFL/NBA/NHL/ etc. are each $billion+ industries with well-defined,
> well-known rules - rules that are modified, deleted, and added to
> constantly, all to make the games better.

   But the basic game mechanics stay the same.  The NFL might introduce
a rule designed to protect quarterbacks better, but there is still a
quarterback, and if he gets tackled with the ball, the offense gets the
ball on the spot he went down (unless it was 4th down in the US, 3rd
down in Canada, but I digress)--those rules do not change.  Also, the
last time I checked, the Green Bay Packers won the first two Super
Bowls, and one of the times they won, they beat the Kansas City Chiefs. 
I don't see anyone changing the history books so that it was the Oakland
Raiders the Packers beat instead.

> Why can't IG and Marc Miller try to improve the game? Because it may 
> change the implementation of a 20 year old rule? That may be the idea.

   Give me a good reason to change a certain mechanical aspect of a
game, and I say more power to you.  You seem to be forgetting, or may
not be aware, but I'm one of the fellows that beat on the doors of GDW
(and later IG) trying to get them to fix the way star systems were
generated in the game.  Changing the background history is another thing
altogether.  Changes in the background history should *only* occur if
there is some kind of contradiction that has to be resolved.  The
regional capital of the First Imperium in the Solomani Rim was located
at Gashidda.  The regional capital of the First Imperium in the Solomani
Rim was located at Dingir.  One of those statements is true, one is
false (by the way, this is a real life example).  It's up to somebody
official to say which is correct.

> 7)As far as the 'quality' complaint (which I read a great deal here), I
> own a great deal of old CT stuff and am acquiring more and more T4 stuff
> all of the time - and I think T4 is as good, perhaps better. 

   I would currently rate the quality of the *content* of the T4 stuff
to be somewhere around that of MegaTraveller, 1st edition.  This is
*well* below the quality of the classic Traveller material, c. 1985.

> Go to a good Convention, pull out some CT and MT stuff, lay it next to T4 
> stuff - - equal or better binding process, better card and paper stock, 
> great color art, etc. I am often comvinced that a great deal (not all) of 
> the complaints about quality have a 'good old days' ring to them. The good
> old days were 5.5"x8.5" low- to medium- quality stock books without art
> and with virtually no explainatory text, and a great deal of
> number-crunching (which at least convinced me to get a degree in
> physics).

   By that logic, it is better to own a Porche 911 with a bad engine,
bad transmission, and faulty brakes than a Honda Civic in perfect
running order when you need to get to a job interview.  The Porshe won't
get you there, but at least you'll look good sitting on the side of the
road with no work.

   I would much rather have 5.5"x8.5" books that gave me quality content
with just enough black and white illustrations to get the point across
than high gloss numbers that are poor in content with irrelevant high
gloss art.  I would rather have accurate formulas that might require a
calculator to save time than tables that are badly formatted, contain
bad numbers, or are just plain missing from the book.  Call me old
fashioned if you must, but I think you will agree with me.

>Again, Harold, I am not trying to flame you, just start a dialog of
>what's good, what's bad, and why.

   Understood.  And it was my intention to come up with some
constructive criticism of T4 and what I think IG is doing wrong at this
phase of the game.  It is entirely possible they are already addressing
some of my points.  I hope so.  I want to see that new star system
generation system come out--it or something like it is **long** overdue.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 14:59:40 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: ANCIENT Grandfather

On Tue, 20 May 1997, Ken Roberts wrote:

> I haven't been active in Traveller for some time. In fact, the last 
> Traveller book I bought was "The Traveller Adventure" in 1986.
>  I guess my question is, when did this Grandfather myth start, and why 
> is he so important to Traveller as a whole?

The Droyne alien module explains the ancients, and Grandfather.
Grandfather was a freak of nature, a "mule" if you will, who had god like
inteligence and psionic power.  He and his 20 grand children created what
we now call the ancients.  The 1000 year war was Grandfather exterminating
his now defunct children and all (or atleast most) of the reminence of the
society he built.  He then withdrew to a "pocket" universe.

>  I really dislike s/f story lines that belittles humanities ability to 
> discover technology that seems too complex to had come up with 
> ourselves.

I agree.  If I ever wrote a book or made a game, HUMANITY would be the
ancient race manipulating and exploiting everyone :)

>  I understand that some people need gods to explain things away, but 
> does Traveller really need this subplot?
>  The last game I was involved in was in 1989 on the USS South Carolina. 
> The plot had agents of the Grandfather (the other players) trying to 
> overthrow the Imperium, and I was an Imperial Marshall sent to stop 
> them. This is the first time I had heared of the Grandfather, and I 
> didn't like it then.
>  Please, no long winded bandwidth killers, just a short explination will 
> be fine.
> 
> --Ken Roberts
> 





"There are no bad haircuts in cyberspace." 
- - Dave Barry

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1365
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, May 26 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1366



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Fans and Players
Large Starships
Re: Jump Troops
RE: Double messages?
MT Yacht design
Re: Jump Troops
Re: Large Starships
RE: Anybody out there?
RE: Classic Traveller Question
Re: Large Starships
Re: Call for Playtesters
Re: An Open Letter to the List
Re: Fans and Players
Re: Core Subsector
Re: IG Pricing Policy
Jump troop tactics (longish)
Re: ANCIENT Grandfather

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 04:05:46 -0500
From: Robert Beck <beck@mail.all-net.net>
Subject: Re: Fans and Players

At 02:55 PM 5/24/97 -0500, Joe wrote:

>Fan:  Someone who buys Traveller stuff, goes to conventions that feature 
>Traveller games and dealer tables, and/or talks about Traveller a lot.  I 
>think this is the broadest category.  Pretty much anyone who buys more 
>than a couple of Traveller products could be considered a Fan.

Lessee, I definitely fit this category. I keep having to buy new plastic
crates to hold new acquisitions. It's a never ending cycle. :) I love to
collect and Trav is definitely a collector oriented game system anymore,
with so much out of print. I started collecting it not long after Megatrav
debuted and kept buying all the way through TNE and now T4. Since then I've
begun collecting CT material as well, as I find it really useful and
interesting. If I could get one of the second rate Cons around here to run
a Traveller game, that might be nice, but if one of them did at least
feature it, I'd undoubtedly be there.
 
>Designer:  Someone who designs systems, background material, or items for 
>Traveller.  I think Traveller's Player and Fan population includes a heck 
>of a lot of these people - a higher per capita ratio than any other game, 
>I'd wager.  It's so open to design, whether that be ships, weapons, house 
>rules, or what-have-you.  A lot of the folks here on TML are designers.

Well, I don't have the gift that some people on this list have for
designing rules and equipment, (several names come to mind, but I don't
want to inflate too many egos or short change anybody ;) but I do love
designing world descriptions and important characters (NPC's,
personalities, whatever...) Some of my favorite work has been doing small
planet write-ups and personality profiles for TNE, specifically for the
BARD pages. Just wish I had the time to put a real effort into it and not
just do something every few months. I, as several others on the list, think
it adds so much color and life to the gaming material if you try and flesh
out some of the statistics that Trav is so full of. It's a blast to take a
planetary or character code and turn it into something with substance. 

>Player:  Someone who actually plays Traveller.  This is what it's all 
>about; the players are the ones driving this cart.  Without them, there's 
>no purpose in the Fans and Designers existing.  Moreover, I'd hasten to add 
>that you don't get to be a player forever just because you played at one 
>time.  Either you're currently a player, or you're not, depending on 
>whether you're currently involved in a Traveller game (whether as player 
>or referee).

I played CT back in the mid-80's. Had a Vargr corsair and our little group
operated out of the Spinward Marches. It was about as classic a campaign as
you could get. 
I did run a short lived TNE campaign based off the Buckaroo Banzai Hongkong
Cavaliers (They fit too perfectly for my group not to use them). They made
a magnificent Lancer team. It was a kind of off the wall thing and it
worked really well. I hadn't run anything since then until a couple of
months ago. I, once again like several on the list, bought a few copies of
T4 when it came out and distributed them to my players as gifts. It worked,
and in no time they were hooked and wanted to play. I have a retired Scout,
retired Navy engineer, and a rogue ex-Army running together in the Scout's
ship. We started with a modified Rubicon Cross scenario set c.1110, which
they managed to screw up royally. The first session ended with them
misjumping into Solomani space. They were already near the border as it
was... As we rotate about a half dozen games through our group, it took a
while for everyone to get together again to game again. We ran the second
session last night. The three of them found out they were in the Scipio
system, which for those who don't have any Solomani rim supplements was a
self-interdicted TL7 world with no starport about 5 parsecs inside the
Solomani border. The jump drive had conveniently malfunctioned and a part
burned out. It was irreplaceable in the sense that they had no spare and
couldn't jury rig one. They'd have to get the part from a starport or
another jump drive. Of course, they discovered, they were in a system that
had no jump drives. So they worried a bit. To make a long story short (too
late) they reconnoitered the planet for a while, uncovered and foiled a
band of Solomani smugglers and got the part they needed, then were
unceremonially snagged by a Solomani border patrol. They got out of it
eventually. 
I've decided that I just don't like using T4 rules, though, and my players
have agreed with my decision to convert back to TNE or possibly MT rules,
as we're more familiar with them. Doesn't mean I won't keep buying, but
I've given up on the system, not really for anything more than I have no
time to learn it and work through the bugs. It could be done. Had I more
free time I would. We like the older systems, though, and that's what we're
sticking with. Can't say we didn't try. ;)

Rob.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 23:29:05 -0500
From: Alex Rebsch <grazzit@flash.net>
Subject: Large Starships

I was wondering if anybody had any ideas about Large starships in T4?
Meaning anything bigger than 5000 Tons. I was looking for imperial fleet
vessels. Has anybody converted the MT ships to T4?


On a differnt note:  Has anybody noticed the small amounts of weaponry
available in T4? Or have I just missed the book with all the weapons? My
interest is due to the fact that my players are very gung ho combat
oriented (sigh!).


Also has anybody discussed the effects or even placement of a black hole
in Traveller? Just an idea.


Alex


E=Mail:	grazzit @flash.net


Home
Page:<underline><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>	http://www.flash.net/~grazzit/traveller.html</color></underline>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 22:29:39 -0700
From: David Kenney <dkenney@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Troops

Michael Solomani Mifsud wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 23 May 1997, David J. Golden wrote:
> 
> > I was playing around with with jump troops, wondering what size the
> > launcher actually had to be, and came up with some interesting numbers. I
> > basically started with the classical idea that drop troops are for surprise
> > attacks.
> [snip]
> 
> This is cool, but I have a few comments.  You assume they will be more
> vulnerable then they should be.  The reason they seem to be vulnerable is
> that they are not being backed up.  Historicaly no General in his right
> mind would drop paratroopers (a close equivalent of JTroops ?) into a
> combat zone without a) total air superiority and b) there is some kind of
> combined naval/ground action at the same time.
> 
[SNIP]
> 
> So to recap, historicaly paratroopers have been used only when the
> folowing assertions are true;
> 
> 1) Complete air superiority is established (Germans over Crete, DDay)
> 
> 2) Trailing ground forces are nearby (Arnheim, DDay, Russians in
>    Manchuria)
> 
> 3) Naval Support provided (DDay)
> 
> 4) Surprise/Confusion is important (All of the above, Den Bien Phu)
> 
> So, if I continue to draw the same parallel between paratroopers and
> Jtroopers then the above Traveller *equivalents* would also have to be
> true.
> 
> Comments?
> 
> Michael
> 
> "There are no bad haircuts in cyberspace."
> - Dave Barry

Read 'STARSHIP TROOPERS' by Robert Heinlein

This book gives an interesting account of jump troops that might get you
pointed in the right direction.

David Kenney

- -- 
To our Marines fell the most difficult and dangerous portion of the
defense by reason of our proximity to the great city wall and the main
city gate... The Marines acquitted themselves nobly.

(Mr. Edwin N. Conger, U.S. Minister, in commending the Marines for the
defense of the legations at Peking, China, in 1900)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 09:43:52 +0400
From: Andy Long <andyl@icluae.co.ae>
Subject: RE: Double messages?

>>>>
>-----Original Message-----
>From:	Michael Solomani Mifsud [SMTP:solomani@electric-rain.net]
>Sent:	Monday, May 26, 1997 8:35 AM
>To:	Mailing List
>Subject:	Double messages?
>
>
>I am getting old posts on the list being sent to me - anyone else having
>strange experiences with the TML?
>
>
>
>
>
>"There are no bad haircuts in cyberspace." 
>- Dave Barry
>
>[andy long]  <<<<
>
>Yup, seemed to happen to me a week or so ago, as well.
>
>Andy
================================================================
smtp Email:	andyl@icluae.co.ae OR
		andylong@x400.icl.co.uk OR
		A.G.Long@abu0101.wins.icl.co.uk OR
		andylong@emirates.net.ae
x400 Email:	c=ae;a=emdan;p=icl;ou1=abu0101;s=Long;i=AG;
		o=International Computers Ltd;
A.G. Long, c/o ICL	Phone:	+971 (2) 335200/338066
PO Box 7237		Fax:	+971 (2) 338724
Abu Dhabi
United Arab Emirates
================================================================
> 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 22:45:16 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: MT Yacht design

Here is my yacht design using the MT rules. I'll be creating deck
plans for this one. 

I'd like to thank David Crew, Tim Smith and Nick Munn for double-
checking my design and making some excellent suggestions. I've 
incorporated most of their suggestions into this version.

Here goes:

CraftID:	Yacht, Type Y, TL15, MCr146.5
Hull:		2700/6750, Disp = 300, Config = 6SL, Armor = 40G, 
		Unloaded = 2978tons, Loaded = 3237tons
Power:		93/186, Fusion = 2500Mw, Duration = 30/90
Loco:		216/432, Maneuver = 3, 135/270, Jump = 4, 
		Cruise = 750kph, Top =1000kph, NOE = 190, Agility = 0
Commo:		Radio = System
Sensors:	PassiveEMS = Interstellar, ActiveEMS = FarOrbit, 
		ActObjScan = Rout, ActObjPin = Rout
Off:		Hardpoints = 3
Def:		DefDM = +5
Control:	Computer = 4 x 2, Panel = holodynamic link x 159, 
		basic env, basic LS, extend LS, grav plates, 
		inertial comp, air lock x 3
Accomm:		Crew = 5 (Bridge = 2, Engineer = 2, Steward = 1), 
		Staterooms = 13, Subcraft = air/raft
Other:		Cargo = 124.727klitres, Fuel =1912.5klitres, Scoops, 
		PurificationPlant, ObjSize = Average, EMLevel = Moderate

My design spreadsheet is available to anyone who asks. Comments,
naturally, are appreciated.

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 23:51:55 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Troops

At 12:46 pm 05/26/97 +1000, you wrote:
>On Fri, 23 May 1997, David J. Golden wrote:
>
>> I was playing around with with jump troops, wondering what size the
>> launcher actually had to be, and came up with some interesting numbers. I
>> basically started with the classical idea that drop troops are for surprise
>> attacks.
>[snip]
>
>This is cool, but I have a few comments.  You assume they will be more
>vulnerable then they should be.  The reason they seem to be vulnerable is
>that they are not being backed up.  Historicaly no General in his right
>mind would drop paratroopers (a close equivalent of JTroops ?) into a
>combat zone without a) total air superiority and b) there is some kind of
>combined naval/ground action at the same time.

	Actually, the "vulnerability" assumption was based on an attempt at a
lightning surprise strike, which is the "classic" use for jump troops.
Under those conditions, you haven't even started to gain air/space
superiority, nor any other actions. As you point out, departing from that
changes things.

	Not that you can't have a lightning surprise strike without a bunch of
other stuff going on, including a combined naval/ground action, and heavy
top cover. But that's a fairly major operation, not a surgical strike anymore.

>[snip]
>> If you assume your troopship jumps in undetected, and makes its hyperbolic
>> approach stealthed and silent running (powered down, etc.), and assume
>> nobody detects you until you fire up your thrusters for orbital injection,
>> that leaves 5 minutes from the time you're first detected to the time you
>> launch, for me to track you, figure out exactly where you're headed, and
>> alert the defenses. That's not much time, is it. But the defenders still
>> have 45 minutes to prepare for your troops landing, and as soon as they see
>> the reentry trails, they know where that'll be. Assuming they don't airnuke
>> you first ...
>
>So, using my above premise of combined arms action, the planet being
>targeted should have no space navy, the invading power controls the space
>lanes.  The invaders should also have done some bombardment perhaps, and
>suppressed local air power as much as possible.  The JTroops should only
>be dropped in an area that already has friendly ground forces nearby for
>support.  This way, the defenders are to worried about other factors (air
>strikes, Space bombardment, ground incursion etc) to worry much about
>JTroops, or if they are worried about Jtroopers, the other pressures on
>the defender make the 45 minute reaction time to short.
>
>So to recap, historicaly paratroopers have been used only when the
>folowing assertions are true;
>
>1) Complete air superiority is established (Germans over Crete, DDay)
>
>2) Trailing ground forces are nearby (Arnheim, DDay, Russians in
>   Manchuria)
>
>3) Naval Support provided (DDay)
>
>4) Surprise/Confusion is important (All of the above, Den Bien Phu)
>
>So, if I continue to draw the same parallel between paratroopers and
>Jtroopers then the above Traveller *equivalents* would also have to be
>true.
>
>Comments?

	Just the one I raised above. Jump troops are not alway used as part of a
major, unrestricted combined-arms assault on a planet. If you're trying for
a quiet sneak attack, bringing in millions of tons of warships is kind of
overkill... However, I agree with your fundamental point--a full-scale
invasion requires the jump troops be heavily supported. I'm just trying to
find ways for them to survive in the other role...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 01:42:20 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Large Starships

> On a differnt note:  Has anybody noticed the small amounts of weaponry
> available in T4? Or have I just missed the book with all the weapons? My
> interest is due to the fact that my players are very gung ho combat
> oriented (sigh!).

You might want to try the Emperor's Arsenal.  It's a great book.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 23:22:18 -0700
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Anybody out there?

I'm still here...lurking!  :)

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Douglas R Glatz
PDG Computer Services

e-mail: douglas@teleport.com
HTTP://www.teleport.com/~douglas/

Never anger a dragon, for they have found we are crunchy and go well with Brie...
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


- ----------
From: 	David J. Golden[SMTP:goldendj@pcisys.net]
Sent: 	Wednesday, May 21, 1997 7:00 PM
To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	Anybody out there?

This is very strange ... I've gotten no messages whatsoever from the TML
since early last night, instead of the dozens I normally get ... I pray we
haven't killed each other off. Is anybody still alive?
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 23:28:21 -0700
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Classic Traveller Question

High Guard (p27)

"Unrefined fuel, when used in starship drives and power plants, can result 
in equipment malfunctions and misjumps.  This can be avoided with the use 
of a fuel purification plant which allows refining of the raw gas before it 
is used in the drives."

The table for the fuel purification plants is on page 36.


- ------------------------------------------------------------------------  
- -------------------------------------------------------------
Douglas R Glatz
PDG Computer Services

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
HTTP://www.teleport.com/~douglas/

Never anger a dragon, for they have found we are crunchy and go well with 
Brie...
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------  
- ---------------------------------------------------------

- ----------
From: 	Niko Wieleba[SMTP:scarab1@pacbell.net]
Sent: 	Wednesday, May 21, 1997 9:59 AM
To: 	Traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	Classic Traveller Question

Hi there:

This is probably a dumb question, but I have looked for this bit of
information before in the past and not been able to find it:

Where do I find the cost and specifics of adding a fuel refinery to a
ship for CT?

Likely it is just something I have overlooked -- or it is lurking
somewhere I have not found yet.

Thanks in advance for your help!

Niko
scarab1@pacbell.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 02:56:14 -0400
From: Hugh Johnson <ratling@csrlink.net>
Subject: Re: Large Starships

At 11:29 PM 5/25/97 -0500, you wrote:
>On a differnt note:  Has anybody noticed the small amounts of weaponry
>available in T4? Or have I just missed the book with all the weapons? My
>interest is due to the fact that my players are very gung ho combat
>oriented (sigh!).
	The weapons were in Emperor's Arsenal (Book 7).
>
>Also has anybody discussed the effects or even placement of a black hole in
>Traveller? Just an idea.
	I remember seeing a reference to an article in an old Dragon magazine
about black holes for Traveller once.  I believe it was over ten years ago
when Dragon used to have articles for CT.  Does anyone else remember it or
know what issue it was in? 


Hugh Johnson    mailto:ratling@csrlink.net   <:8}}}---

"Anything that happens, happens.  Anything that, in happening, causes
something else to happen, causes something else to happen.  Anything that,
in happening, causes itself to happen again, happens again.  It doesn't
necessarily do it in chronological order, though."      -- Douglas Adams,
Mostly Harmless

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 01:01:30 -0700
From: bri <bri@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Call for Playtesters

 Hmm.. kinda late, but I'd be interested in looking at it and going over it
for playtesting. 
bri <bri@teleport.com>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 10:19:51 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: An Open Letter to the List

- -> I want that feeling I used to get when I would rush down to the game 
- -> store when a new DGP item was in.  I was never unhappy with the 
- -> quality of material put out by those people.  I'd buy it, rush out to 
- -> the car to unwrap it, and look at it for about an hour before I left 
- -> the parking lot.
- -> 
- -> I never felt cheated because of the price or the quality/quantity of 
- -> material therein.  It wasn't long before I would buy anything with 
- -> DGP's name on it.  Never once was I disappointed, whether it be game 
- -> supplements, adventures, GM screens, or even magazines.
Oh man, i know that feeling... And i miss it! 
DGP's product was superior to much i have seen on the RPG-Market 
since! Their quality of writing was about the same as SJG's still is, 
but for TRAVELLER! I miss those times... 

Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 10:35:21 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Fans and Players

- -> > PS  Is JTAS #26 out yet? Or, did you just see an advance copy?
- -> 
- -> JTAS and Pocket Empires are both out.  Picked up copies of both at 
- -> the FLGS today.
- -> 
So? Are they any good?Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 10:31:18 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Core Subsector

- -> >Hi, I'm new to this list and I was wondering if anybody knows why there is
- -> >a discrepancy between the T4 book and the First Survey book in regard to
- -> >the Core Subsector?  The worlds are in different places and some are gone.
- -> >Any Info?
- -> 
- ->     ***** INCOMING!!!! ***** TAKE COVER!!!! ***** SUB-C ASTEROIDS ON COLLISION
- -> COURSE!!!! ***** ABANDON SHIP!!!! *****
Rofml Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 10:43:44 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: IG Pricing Policy

- -> << However, what gets me is the starport problem - I'm sorry, but I don't
- -> agree that there should be that many A class and B class starports.
- -> Certainly not in M0 anyway. >>
- -> 
- -> Maybe it's all relative. What was good enough to be A in M0 might only be 
- -> rated as B in 1100. Standards and definitions can change a lot in 1000 
- -> years. Compare a modern 5-star hotel (colour TV, telephone, air 
- -> conditioning, en suite bathroom, etc) with the equivalent c.1000AD (glass 
- -> in the windows if you're lucky, a bed without too many fleas, hole in the 
- -> wall to pee through...)
I don't agree. The standars that a starport requires are the same in 
T$ as in MT and as such an A starport is able to build ships. Not to 
many of those in M:0, are there? 

Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 04:30:43 -0500
From: The Stump Family <stumps@earthlink.net>
Subject: Jump troop tactics (longish)

As an ex-member of an Airborne unit who GMs for former paratroopers, I
had been thinking about the 'proper' use of jump troops for about a week
before the original posting here (I'm jealous I didn't bring it up
first!). I am going to assume my opinion on how it may 'go off' will
interest someone (and I love to have my plans critiqued).
  First, my assumptions for the first scenario; 1) the opposing world
has at least TL 9 and is aware of the existence of jump troops 2)The
target has coordinated global defenses, troop and aircraft bases, and
orbital/ground starports (1 or more) 3) the target is NOT an ocean
world! Using those assumptions, I made an 'H-hour' timeline where H is
the beginning of the initial jumptroop drop. For examples, I am using a
TL 11 Earth as the target world;
 
H -24 hrs: if the target has no reason to expect invasion, commandos are
infiltrated onto the planet's surface either by posing as
tourists/businessmen/etc. (best) or by re-entry kit (worst) These
commandos will have three objectives - 1)inspect the planned landing
zones (LZs) for safety and usability 2)confirm land routes to primary
objectives and 3)prepare sabotage actions

H -18: highly-stealthed dropships jump in-system. They will have
accelerated to the correct speed before jumping and will make course
corrections with gaseous attitude rockets to avoid detection as long as
possible. They will be 'aft-first' on jump so that they are ready to
decelerate. There will be 4 groups of ships on different courses, three
of the groups will carry a division of jump troops (6,000 marines or
army).

H -12: The jump troops will have finished their final equipment
inspection and will be sleeping

H -2: The jump troops will have been up for 2 hrs, eaten a hot meal, and
showered. At this time they will be 'geared up' for final safety check.
Group #4 will fire a series of high-yield nukes (stealthily) with a long
flight time

H -45 minutes: all troops will be in jump capsules and rigged for high
acceleration, all of the tasks forces will begin high-g deceleration to
get the right velocities for drop. From this point on, any indication
that the target is aware of the attack (increased sensor activity,
scrambled spacecraft or atmospheric fighters, etc.)will cause all groups
to fire dummy projectiles at the surface: launch missles at any defense
craft, comm sats, etc.: and switch to active jamming.

H -20 minutes: If commandos were deployed, they strike now. They will
concentrate on destruction of comms (comm relays and uplinks), civil
leaders (mayors, police cheifs) and disruption of infrastructure
(disrupt the energy grid and water pumping stations). They will not be
able to hit all of these targets and the priorities will vary from world
to world.

H -15 minutes: The pre-fired nukes will detonate in the ionosphere,
EMPing the surface over the target - in my example, the EMP 'footprints'
will be over North America (Over L.A., Chicago, Dallas, New York) Europe
(London, Paris, Stockholm, Antwerp, Berlin, Moscow) Asia (Tokyo,
Singapore) and the Pacific (Honolulu) all based upon their
electromagnetic signature - lots of radio traffic, etc. While most
military electronic will probably be intact and many core comm relays
may survive. Many other systems, though, will fail. Most exposed sensor
arrays will be crippled, as will many personal electronics. Since the
jump will be scheduled for late night local, the flash and effect would
be spectacular.
 At this same time, if the ships havn't already started firing as in H
- -45, above, they do so now.

H -5 minutes: The groups fire a series of 'dummy' pods. Some are active
radar/sensor jammers that 'flicker' on and off, some are 'repeaters'
(they have on-board radio and radar receivers. They record intercepted
radio and radar signals and replay them at high power several times
before swithing to new signals - imagine every thing you say be repeated
by an echo chamber attached to 400 watt speakers) some are LZ prep
munitions - they release hundreds of submunitions (like a cluster bomb)
that strike the ground minutes before the jumptroops to take care of any
defenders on the ground.

H Hour: The groups begin the drop. Group #1 is targeting L.A., #2
Chicago, #3 the Downport for the starport in Dallas. Group #4 is firing
submunitions, jammer/repeaters, and standard heavy explosives at the
military bases between New York City and Washington, D.C.

H +5 minutes: The last jump troop is dropped. The drop ships continue
firing on the planet and space objects as they 'flip' and accelerate
away. The last dummy jumppods fired by group#4 begin releasing a
foul-smelling green gas - it is a harmless psychological warfare device
to spread panic.

H +15 minutes: Follow-on forces begin to jump in-system. Since jump
troops would only be used to subdue a planet, this probably includes
capitol ships, destroyers, more drop ships, troop carriers, supply
ships, and a large carrier. They will jump in as close as is safe,
immediately deploy fighters, and engage any space defenses as they close
on target.

 NOTE: at this time, the jump pods are screaming towards the planet
surface at high speed and a steep angle. Stealthed to avoid weapons lock
and surrounded by countermeasures, intercepting pilots will be faced
with thousands of small, fast targets moving towards their worst enemy
(the ground). They can't get weapons lock, can't communicate with base
for orders, and don't know where all of the pods are. Her choice is to
dive after a target in air made turbulent by the pods, surrounded by
hurtling steel objects, and manually aim at a target they may be a
jumptroop, may be a dummy round, then pull out of her dive before eating
asphalt. Proximity airburst might help, but I think densteel jump pods
can take a sanding and keep on landing - only a few jumpers would be
killed that way. My arguments about defensive use of nukes were already
posted (I think).

H +35 min: The submunitions clear the LZs - the LZs will be near the
target city, but not in it (Light suburbs).

H +45 minutes:Jumptroops begin landing. They will immediately begin
establishing a perimeter and heavy-weapons troops will begin preparing
anti-aircraft and anti-tank defenses.

H +1 hr: The last jumper will have landed, the cargo pods will have been
opened (heavy weapons, medical supplies, orbital radios, etc.) and the
commando teams (in augmented battledress) will be departing for their
first objective. The troopers first objective is to setup a secure
perimeter for follow-on forces; commandos will sow confusion, gather
intelligence, and disrupt enemy operations.

H +6: Fast follow-on ships will begin attacking planetary defenses,
perhaps attacking surface targets.

H +12: Follow-on forces 'big ships' reach orbit and begin bombardment.
More jump troops will either reinforce the units on the ground or drop
on new targets. Landing ships will start bringing in troops, G-carriers,
and grav tanks to the 'space heads' established by the jump troops.
Evacuation of the wounded begins.



  As you can see, Jump troopers will definately suffer heavy casualties
(In the Real World predictions of airborne operations in Europe vs. a
Soviet invasion, casualty estimates were 40%-60% for SUCCESSFUL
operations). And if anything goes wrong, they get left in hostile
territory. But I think most of their casualties will be on the ground
after the jump, not 'in transit'.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 05:50:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: ANCIENT Grandfather

In a message dated 97-05-25 03:24:00 EDT, you write:

>  I really dislike s/f story lines that belittles humanities ability to 
>  discover technology that seems too complex to had come up with 
>  ourselves.
>   I understand that some people need gods to explain things away, but 
>  does Traveller really need this subplot?


John Harshman commented once upon a time that, if there are to be multiple
compatible human races scattered across space in Traveller, there has to be a
mechanism which scattered them. We concluded that would have been the
Ancients.

More or less at the same time, we talked about Ancient Sites--- destroyed
ruins with clues to who the Ancients were and what technology they had.

Yaskoydray (Grandfather) was the genius head of the Ancients 300,000 years
ago, and he was the motivation behind many things in the Traveller universe.

On the other hand, he is a benefactor primarily of the Droyne rather than of
humanity. And isn't it strange that he is content to see their numbers
increase without making them Lords of the Universe.

In any case, Grandfather is an interesting character, but hardly a god to
produce automatic answers or high technology for humans.

Marc Miller

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1366
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, May 26 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1367



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re:something positive
Re: ANCIENT Grandfather
Re: T4-Revised
Re: Large Starships
Re: Fans and Players
Re: jump troops
Re: Companions of the Road?
Sector Data
Re: Starport Question
Re: Jump troop tactics (longish)
Re: TML-FS Project
Re: Companions of the Road?
Re: jump troops
Re: M0 Low Berths
Re: ANCIENT Grandfather
Re: jump troops
Re: Fans and Players
T4 Equipment Sheet

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 04:56:36 -0500
From: The Stump Family <stumps@earthlink.net>
Subject: re:something positive

Harold writes
 <snip>
 >I hope this isn't IG's attitude, because if it is, what I'm hearing
>is that nearly 20 years of storyline development is irrelevant.

I wouldn't say irrelevant, just different. None of the players/GMs I
know in person liked Virus at all (myself included); most ignored it.
Changing its nature to lessen its impact could very well please as many
players as it annoys.

\<big snip>

> > Two: Existant rules, etc. are not religious text. The
> > NFL/NBA/NHL/ etc. are each $billion+ industries with well-defined,
> > well-known rules - rules that are modified, deleted, and added to
> > constantly, all to make the games better.
> 
>    But the basic game mechanics stay the same.  The NFL might introduce
> a rule designed to protect quarterbacks better, but there is still a
> quarterback, and if he gets tackled with the ball, the offense gets the
> ball on the spot he went down (unless it was 4th down in the US, 3rd
> down in Canada, but I digress)--those rules do not change.  Also, the
> last time I checked, the Green Bay Packers won the first two Super
> Bowls, and one of the times they won, they beat the Kansas City Chiefs. 
> I don't see anyone changing the history books so that it was the Oakland
> Raiders the Packers beat instead.
> 
  I have yet to see a change to the game mechanics from IG more radical
than the ones you mentioned in some snipped text (i.e., using task
resolution from this version, combat from that version, etc.). And as
far as history - the Traveller storyline is no more immutable
fact-of-history than the Batman storyline. Batman used to carry a .45
magnum, now he hates guns and has never used one - all because the feel
of the character changed. While I doubt that a major change (like no
rebellion in 1200 at all) is forthcoming, minor changes to a timeline
like this one are, at most, inconvenient (personally, I think 'no Virus'
would be minor - the loss of civilization and massive loss of life could
easily be explained by widespread planetary bombardment,
chemical/biological warfare, and breakdown of interstellar trade AND
would do so without adding a major new element to previous 'canon').

> I would currently rate the quality of the *content* of the T4 stuff
> to be somewhere around that of MegaTraveller, 1st edition.  This is
> *well* below the quality of the classic Traveller material, c. 1985.

But above content of the '77-'80 period, when I began playing. If the
content doesn't improve to above the '85 period by '99, I'll be amazed,
simply because of the amount of good ideas floating around here. (think
I can throw more dates around in one looooong sentence? :))

> I am often comvinced that a great deal (not all) of 
> > the complaints about quality have a 'good old days' ring to them. The good
> > old days were 5.5"x8.5" low- to medium- quality stock books without art
> > and with virtually no explainatory text, and a great deal of
> > number-crunching (which at least convinced me to get a degree in
> > physics).
> 
>    By that logic, it is better to own a Porche 911 with a bad engine,
> bad transmission, and faulty brakes than a Honda Civic in perfect
> running order when you need to get to a job interview.  The Porshe won't
> get you there, but at least you'll look good sitting on the side of the
> road with no work.
> 
As I said above, I think they have made a much better start than GDW did
and (based on CSC, EA, and PocEmp) I think the content is on its way up
fast.

nice discussion, Harold!

- -Rick

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 13:55:58 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: ANCIENT Grandfather

- -> I agree.  If I ever wrote a book or made a game, HUMANITY would be the
- -> ancient race manipulating and exploiting everyone :)
But maybe not _OUR_ humanity?  ;-)
I just _Love_ conspiracy theories.....
 Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 12:41:57 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: T4-Revised

Richard Hough wrote:

>3. Abolish 'fake' units. By this I mean things like USPs, computer ratings,
>crew factors, maintenance points, anything that has no 'real world'
>meaning. Fake units are easy for designers to come up with, but are a
>nightmare for referees because they are impossible to describe to players,
>convert to other units, check for accuracy, or to measure realistically.
>There are plenty of units, like Newtons, megabits per second, hours, and so
>on that referees already understand, work well in the real world, and for
>which there are plenty of real measurements for in engineering texts. Use
>them.

Speaking as an engineer who plays Traveller to relax ;-)....

I disagree quite strongly about dropping fake units (or at least all of
them). Having abstract, non-realworld units allows you to divorce the
performance of Traveller equipment from reality. Give it real SI (or even
Imperial!) units throughout, and the technology loses its mystique, and I
believe you lose the far future feel. It also raises the level of math you
have to achieve in design and operation using the rules.

Maybe the conversions should be there, but not used directly in the
processes. Sort of there for the interested party.

- --------------- Dom Mooney (dom@cybergoths.u-net.com)---------------
"The fall of Empire, Gentlemen, is a massive thing, however, and not easily
fought. It is dictated by a rising bureaucracy, a receding initiative, a
freezing of caste, a damming of curiousity - a hundred other factors."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Hari Seldon - Azimov's "Foundation"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 13:24:54 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Large Starships

Alex Rebsch <grazzit@flash.net> wrote:

>I was wondering if anybody had any ideas about Large starships in T4?
>Meaning anything bigger than 5000 Tons. I was looking for imperial fleet
>vessels. Has anybody converted the MT ships to T4?

Rob Flammang posted two versions of some excellent conversion rules to take
High Guard (CT) ships and convert them to T4. This included 65000 High
Lightning Cruisers.... Contact me off the TML if you want a copy.

Dom

- --------------- Dom Mooney (dom@cybergoths.u-net.com)---------------
"The fall of Empire, Gentlemen, is a massive thing, however, and not easily
fought. It is dictated by a rising bureaucracy, a receding initiative, a
freezing of caste, a damming of curiousity - a hundred other factors."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Hari Seldon - Azimov's "Foundation"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 07:37:43 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Fans and Players

On Mon, 26 May 1997, Volker A. Greimann wrote:

> -> JTAS and Pocket Empires are both out.  Picked up copies of both at 
> -> the FLGS today.
> -> 
>
> So? Are they any good?Ad Astra,

Are you talkin' to me?   Are you talkin' to me?  You _must_ be talkin' to 
me, because I'm the one that wrote the above. <grin>

Ummm, I'm not exactly seen as an unbiased source of information on the 
quality of IG supplements in general.  Further, since I wrote 1/5 of 
Pocket Empires, I hesitate to give an opinion.

I can tell you something about them, though.

JTAS 26:  JTAS is now slick stock, with several color pages inside.  It's 
still 48 pages.  Table of contents:

4.  Contact: Suerrat, by John Snead
	This new Traveller race loves to cuddle pets and doesn't mind a 
	few acts of carefully planned terrorism.

6.  Time Traveller, by J. Robert King
	Take a gander at the Traveller universe through the eyes of its
	creator.

9.  Strike!, by Douglas E. Berry
	Sometimes good deals are too good to refuse and too good to be true.

12. Stellar Villains, by Michael Nelson
	A dash of cruelty, a sprinkle of greed, and a pinch of
	lasciviousness add up to a memorable antagonist.

15. Hidden Cost, by Michael Silverling
	Captain Redmon Black takes on a cargo contract that yields a 
	contract on him.

21. Featured Adventure: Artifacts Unearthed, by David W. Baker
	A little trip to an archaelogical dig promises a good profit -
	if the crew can live to collect.

30. Hot Lead and Heavy Metal, by Michael Wittek
	Getting from Point A to Point B is no easy matter when there's a
	spray of bullets in the way.

33. Herlitian Dreams, by J. Robert King
	A psychologist's trip to Herlitor scares up a few disturbing ghosts.

41. Traveller on the Internet, by David Bullock
	Explore bits of the Traveller universe with a few strokes on the 
	keypad.

44. Screening Room, by Donna Thomsen
	Our Movie Reviewer takes a look at Science-Fiction films with the
	emphasis on science-gone-awry.

47. Under Construction, by Timothy Brown
	Here's a sneak-peak at some upcoming Traveller products.

48. At the Con, by Clayton R. Bush
	Take a couple of Traveller tips from a veteran con-goer.



For Pocket Empires, here's the back cover blurb:

The new Imperium is growing, reaching out to neighboring worlds after the 
Long Night, explanding in power and influence. Some of the worlds they 
contact are already part of smaller empires, Pocket Empires, also rising 
from the centuries of barbarism.

Pocket Empires presents complete rules for players to own and manage 
Traveller worlds. Generate income from worlds, assessing each for 
resources, labor, trade and technology, then allocate revenue to build 
infrastructure, space fleets, and more! Set interstellar economics in motion.



- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh  |  Game Designer for Marc Miller's Traveller
_________________|  Atari 1200XL and Apple IIGS User and Programmer

------------------------------

Date: 26 May 97 10:00:45 EDT
From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Subject: Re: jump troops

I must say, you've all shown remarkable restraint in not getting into the
related topic of dropping rocks...

<ouch! stop! put that down!>

:-D

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:49:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Companions of the Road?

In a message dated 97-05-25 16:35:35 EDT, you write:

> 
>  According to Shadis Magazine, Marc Miller has signed a contract with
>  Wisconsin based Corsair Publishing for a new *Fantasy* RPG titled
>  _Companions of the Road_ which should be out in August.
>  
>  Does anybody knows more about this?
>  

I am working on this game with Corsair Publishing. What do you want to know?


Marc Miller

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:49:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Sector Data

I have a tab delimited text file (342K) of the sector data contained in FS.

This is a sample of the information.

Sector	Loc	Name	UWP	Remarks	B	PBG		Stellar Data
ant	0102	Kai Buu.	D756420-5	LoPop		214		G5 D
ant	0103	Lampigas.	E000000-5	Ast Va Ba		023		K8 V
ant	0108	Anir.	CABA526-9	Ni Wa Fl		715		M4 V M2 D

Notice that it adds a 3 letter code for the sector itself.

Problems with this file:
1. The "LL identical to the GOV" has been fixed.
2. The worlds of Vland sector all have TL 0 (which was fixed in FS text).
3. Some specific changes that were made in the FS text have not been made
here (I have yet to coordinate with Tim Brown for those records).
4. Some key worlds (Sylea, Vland, etc) need to be fixed.

I invite any comments on this data file, recommended fixes, changes, or other
details. When the file has been sufficiently massaged, I will post it at some
accessible place.

Since this is a big file, I am not attaching it here. If you want a copy,
please send me a request at

FarFuture@aol.com

Its probably best to make that the only sibject of your request or I might
over look it.

Marc Miller

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:49:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Starport Question

In a message dated 97-05-25 23:12:56 EDT, you write:

> 
>  I've read someplace (and I need to find where) about the distinction 
>  between orbital starports and downports.
>  
>  It was something like--Class A and B starports on worlds are 
>  considered to have both orbital and ground instellations whereas 
>  class C and lower ports are only downports.
>  
>  Anybody know anything about this?
>  

This is an extract from the chapter of T4.1 (Starports) previously posted to
the list.

Location
	A starport may be located on a world surface, or it may be in orbit above
the world. 
	Down. A starport may be located on a world surface. If so, the starport is
most frequently referred to by the world name followed by the word Down.
Thus, Sylea Down is the main world surface starport for the world of Sylea. 
	Why a surface port? Landing close to the market is convenient for all
concerned. If the environment is at all tolerable, then life support and
labor costs are minimized.
	Highport. A starport may be located in orbit above a world. If so, it is
most frequently referred to by the world name followed by Highport. Thus,
Sylea Highport is the main orbital starport for Sylea. A highport maintains
scheduled links by shuttle with the world surface (if there is no surface
starport, then with an air transport hub).
	Why a highport? Many very large ships never land on a world surface; the
cargo they carry is off-loaded in orbit and shuttled down. Some worlds are
naturally inhospitable (bad surface weather, a water world, fluid oceans, or
perhaps government type D or E) and ship owners prefer not to risk their
equipment venturing down to the surface.

<snip>

	Starport type is based on a simple letter classification system (ranging
from A to E) which details their basic facilities.
	A. Excellent quality facility with refined and unrefined fuel available on
site. Facilities include capability to perform annual overhaul and new ship
construction (QSDS certified designs). A naval base may be present. A scout
base is usually not present. A surface installation is present. A highport
may be present (generally if the world atmosphere is 2+).
	B. Good quality starport with refined and unrefined fuel available on site.
Facilities include capability to perform annual overhaul and new spacecraft
construction (QSDS certified designs). A naval base may be present. A scout
base may be present. A surface installation is present. A highport may be
present (generally if the world atmosphere is 2+).
	C. Routine quality starport with unrefined fuel available on site.
Facilities include some capability for repair (primarily replacement of
QSDS-certified parts). A naval base is usually not present. A scout base may
be present. A surface installation is present. A highport is usually not
present.
	D. Poor quality starport with unrefined fuel available on site or close by.
It has no repair or construction facilities. A naval base is not present. A
scout base may be present. A surface installation is present. A highport is
not present.
	E. Frontier starport. With no facilities, the installation is little more
than a flat expanse of bedrock and a sign. This designation effectively means
there is no starport.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 09:55:18 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Jump troop tactics (longish)

At 04:30 am 05/26/97 -0500, The Stump Family (all of them?) wrote:
>As an ex-member of an Airborne unit who GMs for former paratroopers, I
>had been thinking about the 'proper' use of jump troops for about a week
>before the original posting here (I'm jealous I didn't bring it up
>first!). I am going to assume my opinion on how it may 'go off' will
>interest someone (and I love to have my plans critiqued).

	Very fascinating and detailed analysis; definitely a keeper. I like it a
lot ... for a full scale invasion. Again, I'm trying to make Jump Troops
work with the classic Heinlein-style limited hit & run strike, with *NO*
collateral damage. That prohibits extensive sabotage, EMPs, nukes, LZ prep
via submunitions, etc. The first indication the locals should have is a
bunch of megacephalic steel gorillas rampaging through downtown. Have you
read "Starship Trooper?"

A few comments about the full-scale invasion scenario, though.

>H -24 hrs: if the target has no reason to expect invasion, commandos are
>infiltrated onto the planet's surface either by posing as
>tourists/businessmen/etc. (best) or by re-entry kit (worst) These
>commandos will have three objectives - 1)inspect the planned landing
>zones (LZs) for safety and usability 2)confirm land routes to primary
>objectives and 3)prepare sabotage actions

	Reentry kit suffers from all the problems of jump troops ...

>H -45 minutes: all troops will be in jump capsules and rigged for high
>acceleration, all of the tasks forces will begin high-g deceleration to
>get the right velocities for drop. From this point on, any indication

	Make this about H-10: You don't need to begin your deceleration NEARLY
this early. If you're coming in on a highly hyperbolic orbit (10 minutes
flight time from 3 million kilometers out), you only need approximately 5
minutes to decelerate. Which means, if you're properly stealthed, you've
cut the enemy's warning time from 45 to 10 minutes.

>H -20 minutes: If commandos were deployed, they strike now. They will

	Keep this the way it is--just as everybody's getting into an uproar over
the sabotage, before anybody's had a chance to put everything together and
suspect an invasion, the fleet starts its decel.

>H -15 minutes: The pre-fired nukes will detonate in the ionosphere,

	Change this to H-10: Just as the decel starts, ground-based sensors are
blinded.

>H -5 minutes: The groups fire a series of 'dummy' pods. Some are active

	I'd also mix the dummy pods in with the actual launch, say, one in five.

>H +15 minutes: Follow-on forces begin to jump in-system. Since jump

	Coordinating jump this well?

> NOTE: at this time, the jump pods are screaming towards the planet
>surface at high speed and a steep angle. Stealthed to avoid weapons lock

	Which I haven't modeled yet, but it's coming ...

>and surrounded by countermeasures, intercepting pilots will be faced
>with thousands of small, fast targets moving towards their worst enemy
>(the ground). They can't get weapons lock, can't communicate with base

	Talking to some IR sensor experts (Bruce Macintosh, for example), I think
the pod heat signature would be fairly easy to lock on. Yes, you'll have
decoys--shoot'em all and let the intel guys sort out the pieces on the ground.

	How to overcome the heat signature: Good thermal isolation between the
reentry shell, and the next shell in--once you're below a certain speed,
jettison what's left of the heat shield.

	I must have missed them.


- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:49:34 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: TML-FS Project

>From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>

>OK, we've got 7 people for the TML-FS Project.

Ken, you forgot me... I was the 1st volunteer: Carlos Alos-Ferrer, for the
Massilia Sector.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 19:40:11 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Companions of the Road?

- -> >  According to Shadis Magazine, Marc Miller has signed a contract with
- -> >  Wisconsin based Corsair Publishing for a new *Fantasy* RPG titled
- -> >  _Companions of the Road_ which should be out in August.
- -> >  
- -> >  Does anybody knows more about this?
- -> >  
- -> 
- -> I am working on this game with Corsair Publishing. What do you want to know?
Well maybe a bit about the background... Will it be compatible to 
Traveller, maybe as a far off world somewhere in a rift, created by 
the ancients for social studies...
How it's different from the usual fantasy gamees and such... 
Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 10:29:37 -0700
From: David Kenney <dkenney@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: jump troops

Jeffery M. Miller wrote:
> 
> I must say, you've all shown remarkable restraint in not getting into the
> related topic of dropping rocks...
> 
> <ouch! stop! put that down!>
> 
> :-D
That is just being repetative(sp?) :-)

David Kenney

- -- 
To our Marines fell the most difficult and dangerous portion of the
defense by reason of our proximity to the great city wall and the main
city gate... The Marines acquitted themselves nobly.

(Mr. Edwin N. Conger, U.S. Minister, in commending the Marines for the
defense of the legations at Peking, China, in 1900)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 12:55:31 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: M0 Low Berths

> Well thanks! That's another entry for my Library manual. Anything
> else interesting in those old mags?

The DGP mags are just like their other products--completely full of 
useful Traveller stuff, so much stuff, in fact, that it is hard to 
close the cover :>

I've got it all cataloged though.  Is there anything in particular 
you wish information about?  If so, I'll look it up and point you to 
the sources I've got.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 12:55:26 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: ANCIENT Grandfather

> In any case, Grandfather is an interesting character, but hardly a god to
> produce automatic answers or high technology for humans.

Nice thoughts, Marc.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 19:55:54 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: jump troops

- -> I must say, you've all shown remarkable restraint in not getting into the
- -> related topic of dropping rocks...
[Satellite awaiting command]
Aquire target...Miller, Jeffrey
[Acknowledged...Target aquired]
Release grapple over Target...
[Enter Password]
**********
[Acknowledged, grapped released, rock falling]
JM: Aaargh!
;-)

Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 19:50:39 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Fans and Players

- -> > So? Are they any good?
- -> 
- -> Are you talkin' to me?   Are you talkin' to me?  You _must_ be talkin' to 
- -> me, because I'm the one that wrote the above. <grin>
Yes i was,, and i knew you designed it, but any comments are good, 
even biased ones!
- -> 6.  Time Traveller, by J. Robert King
- ->     Take a gander at the Traveller universe through the eyes of its
- ->     creator.
Who is this J R King, and why is he the creator of Traveller ;-)
Or is it an Interview with MM?
- -> 21. Featured Adventure: Artifacts Unearthed, by David W. Baker
- ->     A little trip to an archaelogical dig promises a good profit -
- ->     if the crew can live to collect.
I read archeological dig... anything to do with the ancients? (if it 
was this will be a must-have for me to put a short blurb on my 
homepage. 
- -> 47. Under Construction, by Timothy Brown
- ->     Here's a sneak-peak at some upcoming Traveller products.
Now this could be interesting.
- -> 
- -> 48. At the Con, by Clayton R. Bush
- ->     Take a couple of Traveller tips from a veteran con-goer.
Hehe, like this one. How to go to a con and what to do there. hehe!

Question: From what i read there seems to be very, very interesting 
articles there, most written by list members... a big plus,
however: Are there Canon-violation oddities again? I think and hope 
not... 
And of course: When wil it hit Germany, a question not even the Ghods 
can answer ;-.)
- -> For Pocket Empires, here's the back cover blurb:
A back-Cover blurb...??? I must be dreaming! Is it true or are you 
kidding us, no, it must be true, IG, I love you.! Finally! 
- -> The new Imperium is growing, reaching out to neighboring worlds after the 
- -> Long Night, explanding in power and influence. Some of the worlds they 
- -> contact are already part of smaller empires, Pocket Empires, also rising 
- -> from the centuries of barbarism.
Sounds excellent. Any more material on the growth of the 3I in here?Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 12:55:32 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: T4 Equipment Sheet

>  Is Cr4,000/mo really that good?  Have you made him sit down and
>  work out his expenses - and then drain his bank account as
>  needed to meet them? What does he do for "steady income" if he
>  decides instead to _use_ the high passage (two, actually), for
>  a vacation trip or some such?

I had responded to this question a while back suggesting that 
incidental expenses be taken from a character using the MT rule 
(Cr250 x SS per month;  MTPM page 30).

Last night, I was taking advantage of the holiday by preparing for my 
game coming up next Sunday when I realized that what I was doing 
would be a good example of whittleing away a character's funds.

My point here is that there is a lot of little charges that happen to 
a character in just day to day living.  He's not always on the ship, 
and I'm sure that his money will evaporate as he ventures into the 
local startown or city.  Not every piece of gum that a character buys 
needs to be role played, and I think the MT rule provides a good 
abstract rule to cover these expenses.

In prepping for my game last night, though, I noticed how I sometimes 
add to a character's expenses by just getting creative.

We are playing the Traveller Adventure and my characters are on 
Pysadi.  Pysadi, as you may or may not know, has a tainted atmosphere 
and is very low tech.  The text in the adventure states that TL 3 
filter masks are available for Cr10.

In my game, I continue the tradition DGP started by having one 
equipment sheet for each piece of equipment a character carries.  It 
helps players organize their stuff, see what they have, and visualize 
each piece of equipment their character has.

I've got a template, and it just takes me a minute to enter a quick 
description about the piece of equipment and print it out.  Next 
game, I'll have these available for the characters to buy.

How I got creative with it was that I detailed, on the equipment 
sheet, how the filter mask works.  There's this round filter (if 
you've got the Traveller Book, check out the filter mask drawing on 
page 107--that's my model) that fits into a screw holder on the front 
of the mask.

A chemical agent must be used in conjunction with the filter to 
clean the Pysadian air.  This is called "cleaner", and it comes in 
squeeze bottles that cost Cr1 and contain 10 applications.  Likewise, 
the filters become dirty and must be replaced weekly.  They come in 
packages of 10 costing Cr1 for the package.

Now, I know that this is not a lot of cost to the characters, but it 
is something.  By doing this with the masks, I've done two things.  
I've made them a little more interesting and "Pysadian specific", but 
I've also put just a little more strain on the character's finances.

I think that too many times, only the big items that characters need 
get bought, and the character is allowed to carry on with this bank 
account the same for weeks on end.

I wish I could do that in real life.  Even if my meals were free and 
I paid no rent, there are plenty of other things that consume my 
funds.  This is why I like the MT rule.  Using that, and occasionally 
getting creative with a piece of equipment or other character cost 
(I'll whittle them away with costs for computer terminal use, air 
taxes, and other planet specific charges), keeps characters having to 
work to provide income--just like in real life.

BTW, if anybody is interested in this equipment sheet for your 
players, I'll make it available to you.  It is done in Word v2.0, but 
you can import it to v6.0 or '97.

Just contact me if you want the sheet.  I've got human and vargr 
versions of the mask.  You'll get three files--one for the front of 
the human mask, one for the front of the vargr mask, and a back page 
for notes that can be used for either.

Kenneth.

PS  I've released a few other sheets to the list.  If you want them 
too, then let me know.  All of them are in Word v2.0

(1)   Vehicle Card (designed by Marc Miller)

(2)   T4 Character Sheet (designed for use with KBv2.0, but can be 
altered easily for a generic system) 

(3)   T4 Ammo Sheet (originally designed for TNE but can be used for 
any Traveller edition)


PPS  Eris, I know that you already want the sheet.  It's on the way!

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1367
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, May 26 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1368



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Sector Data
FF&S Playtesters Info
Re: Traveller navigator
Re: Double messages?
TTA erratta <LONG>
Re: [T97#1353] "Chill Out You Goobers :-)"
Pocket Empires and JTAS 26 (was: Re: Fans and Players)
Re: Jump Troops
Infiltration of jump troopers
Money...That's What I Want!
Red Shores at Night
My Hopes for FFS, NAM, IS...
Pocket Empires (First Impression)
Could someone send me....

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:01:11 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Sector Data

All hail the CREATOR: MM, you are _THE MAN_!

> I have a tab delimited text file (342K) of the sector data contained in FS.
- -> Problems with this file:
- -> 1. The "LL identical to the GOV" has been fixed.
Hooray!
- -> 2. The worlds of Vland sector all have TL 0 (which was fixed in FS text).
That can bwe adjusted with enough work... Letting the TML participate 
in this is a great idea...
- -> 3. Some specific changes that were made in the FS text have not been made
- -> here (I have yet to coordinate with Tim Brown for those records).
- -> 4. Some key worlds (Sylea, Vland, etc) need to be fixed.
We can do that.
- -> I invite any comments on this data file, recommended fixes, changes, or other
- -> details. When the file has been sufficiently massaged, I will post it at some
- -> accessible place.
OK, guys, this is precisely what we wanted, so let's jump to it...
Here's our chance to make right what is wrong, to... (aw heck, i am 
getting emotional...).
Thanks for your trust, Marc, we'll do our best!
 
Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 13:47:08 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: FF&S Playtesters Info

Has anyone playtested the New FF&S from Guy and Dave yet? I must have
responded to late to get it. I would like to ask some questions about it.

Thanks
- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 13:41:01 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller navigator

At 11:24 AM 5/21/97 +0400, you wrote:
>I found the URL for Traveller navigator on a recent post, and jumped
>straight to it. I tried to download the programs, but unfortunately the
>ftp site seems to be dead - the 'ftp:' URL and ftp programs themselves
>both report an ICMP timeout on ftp.best.com, although www.best.com is
>active
>
>Any ideas on why the site is inaccessible, or anywhere else I can find
>the navigator programs?
Andy,

I have all five of the programs I can try and email them to if you would
like? They are all between a megabyte and and a megabyte 1/4. They are pc
dos .exe files. I have:

OldExpan.exe   1.16mb
Spinward.exe   1.16mb
Reft.exe       1.06mb
Diaspora.exe   1.18mb
Deneb.exe      1.16mb

Let me know if you want me to send them to you.


- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 19:14:36 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Double messages?

At 04:35 AM 5/26/97 +0000, Michael Solomani Mifsud
<solomani@electric-rain.net> wrote:
>
>I am getting old posts on the list being sent to me - anyone else having
>strange experiences with the TML?
>
>
>
>

Once in a while, a partial repeat of the prior day's download makes an
appearance. Like today; repeated everything down to Roger Sanger's offer to
sell old Traveller material.

Garry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 15:01:00 -0500
From: Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com>
Subject: TTA erratta <LONG>

Well, I'm afraid I got busier this weekend than I had planned, so I
only made it through a couple of the files.

aircraft.doc

Like the kN fix. Keep the abbreviation consistent, though.

Questions:
Table 2:
	Why is there no drag penalty for VTOL, but there is one for STOL? Why
is there no penalty for amphib/seaplane option, but there is one for
floatplane?

Table 6:
	Prices should be converted to MCr for consistency's sake.

Copy errorrs <sp> :

All errors are listed in page/line/word format.

5/5/17 	"requier" --> require
5/19/3  "fir" --> fire
5/9/12 	"cremmeber" --> crewmember
5/14/14 "air-toground" --> air-to-ground
7/40/15	"gide" --> glide
6/69/5	"a at" --> delete word "a"
10/32/10 "Thunderblt" --> Thunderbolt
10/35/last "ie" --> i.e.
Table 1 - legend - "Ariframes" --> Airframes
		  "Efficency" --> Efficiency
Table 3 - left column - "Propellor" --> Propeller
			note: this may be a case of variant spelling. my 			spell checker
picked it up.
Table 7 - legend - "accelleration" --> acceleration

Clarification:
	I believe the cargo section should be ammended to read that each tonne
of mass carried as _external_ cargo cause 10 points of drag, rather than
all cargo, which is how it reads now.


airships.doc

Note:
	I believe this should be merged with the regular aircraft section. All
sections duplicated therefrom contained the same copy errors. I only
found one more:

Table 6 - TL4 Outboard Wing hardpoin_g_ --> hardpoint


gaussgun.txt

Note: 
	I liked the efficency changes, where barrel performance is concerned.
Makes sense to me.

My only gripe is the battery weight. I was designing a TL12 6mm bullpup
carbine, firing at 2000 mps. The weapon itself massed only 1.894 kilos,
but the battery weighed in at over 2.7! After examining the battery
table for the gauss weapons and comparing it to the one in the
Power.doc, I came to the conclusion that the gauss batteries were based
on a 1 second discharge time, within 10% or so. I did some calculating
and came up with a more exact list of figures.

TL  		Divisor

10		 89992
11		112491
12		168737
13		179986
14		224982
15		269978
16		314975
17		359971
18+		229964

	I think a note should be added in this section of the design sequence,
explaining that the figures were derived from the battery tables based
on a 1 second discharge time. This will prevent the sort of arguments /
complaints I saw about the previous battery figures. Personally, I'll
probably end up using .36 second discharge time batteries in my designs,
and taking the hit in price and recoil. I just have this thing about
lugging around magazines which weigh more than my weapon.

	I'm afraid that's as far as I've gotten. If anyone is interested, I'll
post the carbine design -- with BOTH magazine designs. :-)

Ryan
litefoot@feist.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 97 15:59:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T97#1353] "Chill Out You Goobers :-)"

Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com> writes...

T::>For some people, quite a lot, and I've come the conclusion that
 ::>Marc just doesn't make apologetic speeches. Perhaps we're just a
 ::>bunch of peons as far as he's concerned. I don't know, but the
 ::>level of communication from IG to this list could be better. That
 ::>it hasn't been signifies something, and I'm not too sure what.

 Possibly no more than a company that is in the throes of
 startuphood, and attempting to manage the results of having bit
 off marginally more than it turned out they could chew.

T::>Sometimes, to make a change, you have to scream and shout. I
 ::>remember when Ken Whitman came out with an internet policy for IG
 ::>that we weren't too happy about, and as soon as the screaming and
 ::>the shouting started they quickly changed the policy. I'm a big
 ::>believer in screaming and shouting, but only if pressing the other
 ::>buttons fails to accomplish anything positive.

 And that appears to have again been the case, with the latest
 offer from IG to honestly listen to our suggestions on
 what we would like to see in the combined FS/M:0 rerelease -
 essentially, a request to know how we would correct the flaws
 that have caused such an uproar.  The quick response in this
 case and the last is one of the reasons I'm willing to consider
 as a possibility what I suggested above.

 I will also note that I am heartened by the knowledge that Marc
 has effectively retaken active creative control.  EA and (at
 first glance) PE are both quality volumes - although I've
 already found that there's one table missing from PE.

T::>Had all the other buttons been pressed?

T::>I think yes and no. I think a great many buttons had been pressed.
 ::>For example, somebody wrote that IG just wasn't getting the
 ::>message, and maybe we should forward them TML digests along with
 ::>content summaries.

 I was under the impression that there was at least one IG
 lurker on the list; I could be wrong.  If I'm wrong, I
 shouldn't be - it's always a good thing for a company to have
 its finger on its market's pulse.

 However, except for the fact that there's a _lot_ of TML on any
 given day, I thing this is a good idea.  Given the volume, I'd
 say that a content summary would be preferable, with an offer
 to send digests _if_IG_so_wishes_.  I think that the TML volume
 is a little too high to send the actual messages, even in
 digest form, unsolicited.

 Another thing that would be useful (and I admit to being sadly
 remiss in this area, myself) would be for people to do as I
 suggested in my long post, and send IG _calm_, _reasoned_
 e-mail and landmail explaining their position on the particular
 issue at hand.  The underlined words are key; vituperation and
 loaded language are more likely to get your message filed with
 the banana peels than with the customer feedback.

T::>I think Ken had made a solid effort to communicate with IG in a
 ::>friendly fashion. He wasn't just a screamer, yelling about how bad
 ::>everything was. He was actually trying to help by sending specific
 ::>suggestions in a private manner. And IG's response to his overtures
 ::>was somewhat less than acceptable, at least by my way of thinking.

 And this concerns me, as well.  However, I get the impression
 that this also took place before the reacquisition of firm
 creative control by Marc; my gut reaction is that Marc, at
 least, will be more receptive to this.  I would recommend,
 however, that rather than everyone individually sending
 messages whenever they find a bug, that the TML or someone
 thereon keep track of the bugs that people find, and then send
 a single post that succinctly describes _all_ of the bugs
 found, and the list's suggestions for correction.  This has
 several advantages: It is easier to keep track of the source of
 the report; it keeps the bug list from getting permanently
 scattered to the four winds, and it give us and IG the
 opportunity to see how the bugs interact, thus suggesting some
 possible fixes.

T::>IG has really made some mistakes. It's almost as though they don't
 ::>believe in proof-reading. Either they aren't interested in the work
 ::>they're doing or they're just on such a tight schedule that they
 ::>don't have time to step back and look at what they're putting out.
 ::>Either way, they've made quite a few mistakes and they have to fix
 ::>them.

T::>In the meantime, people on this list are getting angry about it,
 ::>and since IG isn't very responsive to the list anymore, people are
 ::>taking out their frustrations on each other. That, of course, leads
 ::>to flame wars, and as a result, some of the people who have been
 ::>the most active in our little nook of the online community are
 ::>getting ready to call it quits and say goodbye. I just don't see
 ::>that as a very pleasant option.

 The second line of this last paragraph is key - IG isn't
 responsive.  I've seen this as well; I've had some problems
 myself.  I'm more the type to do things via phone call rather
 than e-mail or landmail; to this day, SoCalBell doesn't have a
 411 phone listing for IG; if I don't have my T4 with me, I end
 up calling SweetPea. If I do have my T4 (in which I've penciled
 the number), I try them first - and I have yet to reach a human
 being at that number. I always reach a human being at SweetPea,
 and while it may take more than one call, I have not yet
 _failed_ to get an issue resolved.  By _SweetPea_, not _IG_.
 This _is_ a problem.  And it's frustrating.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  Our true nationality is mankind

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 15:40:05 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Pocket Empires and JTAS 26 (was: Re: Fans and Players)

On Mon, 26 May 1997, Volker A. Greimann wrote:

> Yes i was,, and i knew you designed it, but any comments are good, 
> even biased ones!

Heheheh.  Well, let's see.  PE is the worst product ever to hit the 
streets.  _Starships_ puts it to shame.  I'm glad my name's not associated 
with it.

Oops, that's right, my name _is_ on it.  I'd better back up and revise 
that review. <G>

Pocket Empires is a Traveller game, just as Snapshot, Azhanti High 
Lightning, Fifth Frontier War, Invasion: Earth, and so on were for CT.  

It allows players to control one or more worlds, running a pocket 
empire.  The engine that drives it is the economics system, which 
provides the method for generating the Gross World Product (GWP) of any 
given world (using the UWP and Economic Extension(EE); the EE consists of 
Resources, Labor, Infrastructure and Culture).  It takes into account 
supply and demand, finished goods trade, and a bunch of other goodies.  

There's two versions of the Economics engine: the quickie one, and the 
full-up one, both of which yield compatible results.  The quickie one is 
a figure-once-and-forget-it (unless your UWP or EE changes - if someone 
bombs you back into the stone age, your GWP will probably change<G>) 
system.  The full-up system is a figure-it-every-year system, allowing 
full control over the economy, and much greater detail.  After figuring 
the GWP, you take out the portion of it that you've appropriated as 
taxes.  That becomes your governmental budget (GB).

From there, you use your GB to pay the bills (military maintenance, 
general governmental expenses (buildings, salaries, etc.)), and so on), 
buy new stuff and upgrade old stuff (starports, infrastructure, military 
units, etc.), try to influence the world's Culture (in an attempt to get 
them to adopt new technology quicker, for example), improve technology, 
and so on.

Beyond that, you get to worry about internal politics (maybe your cousin 
would like to kill you and assume the throne), external politics (trade 
alliances, military strikes), and a whole lot of other stuff (don't want 
to give the game away).

The rules for engaging in war, like the economic system, provide two 
alternatives: quick, or full-up. Quick involves a few die throws.  
Full-up is still abstract, but is much more involved and allows much more 
control - and takes a lot longer, like the full-up economic system.

All in all, if you go the quickie route, the game is easier than building 
a ship.  If you go the full-up route, it's about on the level with 
designing a ship (in terms of complexity).  

In addition, the game includes two new career types (Diplomat and 
Bureaucrat), several starter Pocket Empires scenarios, several standard 
Patron encounters based on the premises in Pocket Empires, rules and 
ideas for playing a standard Traveller game in the midst of the pocket 
empires, rules for making a family tree and figuring out what the 
children of two Traveller characters will be like in terms of UPP, and 
the proverbial much, much more.

It was a massive project, as you can see.  I hope you'll enjoy it.


> -> 6.  Time Traveller, by J. Robert King
> ->     Take a gander at the Traveller universe through the eyes of its
> ->     creator.
> Who is this J R King, and why is he the creator of Traveller ;-)
> Or is it an Interview with MM?

It's an interview. :)


> -> 21. Featured Adventure: Artifacts Unearthed, by David W. Baker
> ->     A little trip to an archaelogical dig promises a good profit -
> ->     if the crew can live to collect.
> I read archeological dig... anything to do with the ancients? (if it 
> was this will be a must-have for me to put a short blurb on my 
> homepage. 

Sorry, I haven't read it, but from flipping through it doesn't look like 
it has to do with the ancients.


> however: Are there Canon-violation oddities again? I think and hope 
> not... 

Dunno.  I haven't read most of it...I'm sure we'll hear about it if there 
are. ;)


> And of course: When wil it hit Germany, a question not even the Ghods 
> can answer ;-.)

It will hit Germany sometime after you read this message. <G>


> -> For Pocket Empires, here's the back cover blurb:
> A back-Cover blurb...??? I must be dreaming! Is it true or are you 
> kidding us, no, it must be true, IG, I love you.! Finally! 

Yup, all future products will have back cover blurbs.  You have Marc to 
thank for that one, I believe...


> -> The new Imperium is growing, reaching out to neighboring worlds after the 
> -> Long Night, explanding in power and influence. Some of the worlds they 
> -> contact are already part of smaller empires, Pocket Empires, also rising 
> -> from the centuries of barbarism.
> Sounds excellent. Any more material on the growth of the 3I in here?

Not really.  M0 Campaign's additional 32 pages has more information on 
the growth of the 3I in all sectors in First Survey, though.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh  |  Game Designer for Marc Miller's Traveller
_________________|  Atari 1200XL and Apple IIGS User and Programmer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 97 15:29:28 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Jump Troops

Dave,

I don't know if you factored this in, but...

Couldn't you use the planet's orbital velocity to overtake the jump
capsules while the ship stays at higher speed on the pass? The ship
would be killing some of the capsules velocity in respect the planet,
and the planet would overtake the capsules.  The capsules would have
small steering rockets to get them into the atmosphere where they would
at meteoric speed, and use ablative sheilding and a series of parachutes
to slow down.  Nearing the surface the "Trooper" would be ejected from
the capsule at 40, 50, 60 g's and ride the rest of the way down on a
final parachute or perhaps a grav belt.

I haven't tried to look at the numbers, but this would seem to work
better than having the ship slow to orbital velocity and launching the
capsules at the planet.

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 16:22:07 -0500
From: The Stump Family <stumps@earthlink.net>
Subject: Infiltration of jump troopers

Hmmm... using jump pods to sneak down. Tough.
In the Real World, paratroopers infiltrate in basically 3 ways.
1) - low 'n slow. Against targets that don't have the tech to spot you,
planes come in below radar and drop troopers at 215 feet. In Traveller,
this would be against an enemy without the tech to spot Thrusterplate
emissions OR don't have full coverage. Alternately, commandos could
knock out a 'relatively' small sector of sensor coverage (along with
other damage) just long enough to decel, drop pods, and scoot - the
first warning would be the sound of firing retros and 250 kilos of
trooper/battle dress landing on your porch.

2) - Halo (High-Altitude, Low Opening). This is where a high-flying
plane on a commercial route and time-table has a few squads jump at
about 20,000+ feet (with warmsuits and oxy); they fall and open their
chutes at about 250 feet and land. They depend upon inattention,
boredom, and a small radar signature to land safe. In traveller, this
might be done by a modified large freighter - it looks like a freighter,
acts like a freighter, and (quietly, away from much direct scanning)
launches an assault team while 'approaching upstation'. If its near the
end of third watch over an unsuspecting world in the middle of the
night, the first anyone notices might be when the pickup ship enters
atmosphere so they can LEAVE. If nothing else, confusion of exactly what
is going on, where, and why will buy the troopers time, maybe a great
deal of it.
3) - Haho (High-Altitude, High-Opening); This is when a plane far away
from the objective has troopers jump at high altitude and open their
parasails almost immediately. They then glide to their target. In the
Real World their are rumors of 20+ mile glides where the commandos
jumped over the ocean in international waters and landed 12 miles
inland! In Traveller, this is how I envision the crazie... uh, most
elite squads infiltrate planets. A ship drops a strike team near the
world so that their trajectory will take them to a proper orbit the next
DAY. They are in modified vac suits with long-term survival pods
attached. They spend 24+ hours drifting into an orbit that allows them
to use low-power retros on special re-entry kits to drop (they will
ditch the survival kits as they approach). Although as dangerous as
anything I can imagine, this does have some advantages: There are only
going to be 6-18 objects falling ('can't be jump troops - there are only
9 of 'em'); several of the objects (the survival kits) will obviously
burn up on approach; the rest will mass less than a jump pod; and there
is no obvious drop ship ('hasn't been an outside ship in orbit for 4-5
days'). HOPEFULLY, they only have to survive reentry, if not - well, I'm
sure they get hazardous duty pay. [I assume these are the guys who are
honor grads from Commando school and get into a recon team in a special
forces unit. You know, crazies :)]

I have read Starship Troopers many times, but I always though R.A.H.s
idea of a Mobile Infantry hit-and-run was smoking a city the size of
Atlanta and leaving while the dust was still settling :>

- -Rick

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 97 17:42:05 -0400
From: FKiesche@concentric.net
Subject: Money...That's What I Want!

Greetings:

What's a hen weigh?

Just kidding...

Actually, anybody have a rough approximation of how much a Imperial 
Credit (Classic Traveller era, preferred) would be worth in terms of US 
Dollars?

Also, I figure on using a decimal system for Credits. Anybody ever come 
up with neato designations for each bill/coin equivalent (Cleons, Cleon 
II's, etc.)?

Thanks!



Frederick Paul Kiesche III
(FKiesche@concentric.net)
(Traveller since 1977!)

"He asked again, saying 'Why did you come here? Are you just here to 
study Japanese? Is Hogoji just a language school to you?' He's such a 
sincere guy...

"...I looked at Koji and told him pointedly, 'That's right. I have 
absolutely no interest in Zen at all.' He gaped at me. 'I came here 
merely to study Japanese for free. In zazen I review vacabulary.' I 
started listing the words he had taught me in the first week and Koji was 
on the ground clutching his sides. I even got a reaction from Maku, who 
smiled. I was pleased and dried another dish."

- --Thank You and OK!--An American Zen Failure in Japan (Robert Chadwick)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 97 17:42:07 -0400
From: FKiesche@concentric.net
Subject: Red Shores at Night

Greetings All:

Still trying to catch up on the TML digests (up to about mid-April now!). 
It's been a busy few months.

Anybody have a list or narrative telling why various Red Zones in the 
Spinward Marches are red? I know that some of them (Shionthy, Victoria, 
Andor, Candory) are listed with Imperium-related reasons. I also know 
that one Sword World Red Zone is a SW navy bombing area. But how about 
the others?

Even heretical, non-canonical thoughts would be welcome!



Frederick Paul Kiesche III
(FKiesche@concentric.net)
(Traveller since 1977!)

"He asked again, saying 'Why did you come here? Are you just here to 
study Japanese? Is Hogoji just a language school to you?' He's such a 
sincere guy...

"...I looked at Koji and told him pointedly, 'That's right. I have 
absolutely no interest in Zen at all.' He gaped at me. 'I came here 
merely to study Japanese for free. In zazen I review vacabulary.' I 
started listing the words he had taught me in the first week and Koji was 
on the ground clutching his sides. I even got a reaction from Maku, who 
smiled. I was pleased and dried another dish."

- --Thank You and OK!--An American Zen Failure in Japan (Robert Chadwick)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 97 17:42:10 -0400
From: FKiesche@concentric.net
Subject: My Hopes for FFS, NAM, IS...

Greetings:

Looking through the IG catalog...I'm hoping that between Fire, Fusion and 
Steel and Naval Architect's Manual we have a nice set of vehicle, 
equipment and ship design rules...

As for Imperial Squadrons, anybody know in more detail what this will be 
about? I'm hoping for something along the lines of Pocket Empires (now 
that I've seen it), plus Classic Traveller's High Guard/Trillion Credit 
Squadron combo! Rules for designing fleets/large ships, plus ideas for 
running a game on the scale of Imperium/Fifth Frontier War. This would be 
a neato way of generating action for the characters to jump into...



Frederick Paul Kiesche III
(FKiesche@concentric.net)
(Traveller since 1977!)

"He asked again, saying 'Why did you come here? Are you just here to 
study Japanese? Is Hogoji just a language school to you?' He's such a 
sincere guy...

"...I looked at Koji and told him pointedly, 'That's right. I have 
absolutely no interest in Zen at all.' He gaped at me. 'I came here 
merely to study Japanese for free. In zazen I review vacabulary.' I 
started listing the words he had taught me in the first week and Koji was 
on the ground clutching his sides. I even got a reaction from Maku, who 
smiled. I was pleased and dried another dish."

- --Thank You and OK!--An American Zen Failure in Japan (Robert Chadwick)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 97 17:42:17 -0400
From: FKiesche@concentric.net
Subject: Pocket Empires (First Impression)

Greetings:

Got Pocket Empires in the mail Saturday, a very pleasant surprise indeed! 
(Especially since IG screwed up my order for Emp's Arse so badly it took 
me two months to unscrew it!)

The only mistake I've noticed so far is the back cover text. One word is 
split (when it could have been left whole), leading to some strange 
formatting...plus it appears that the last sentence might be incomplete! 
I hope that more care is taken in the future, this was the second thing I 
looked at (the first was the cover, usual Foss artwork) and I noticed it 
right away!

The book itself was absolutely **not** what I expected. I was expecting a 
supplement along the lines of M0, i.e., here's the situation in several 
pocket empires outside the young Third Imperium. Instead what we get is a 
complete and independent game, with year-long turns, set on a sector (or 
larger) scale. I'm guessing the intention was to generate adversaries for 
the Third Imperium to run into, but I can see running this as a game, 
maybe PBEM style, with players submitting one turn/week...letting an 
alternate history grow.

Great job folks! Can't wait to see the next installment from this design 
team. 

Now for MWM's next contribution--will it be T4 Mark 2 or will it be 
Anomalies? Personally I would like to see a good volume of adventures 
first...

..and I'd like to see how long it takes my subscription copy of JTAS#26 
to arrive, sigh!

Take care and keep the flame burning (but don't let it blow up into flame 
wars!)



Frederick Paul Kiesche III
(FKiesche@concentric.net)
(Traveller since 1977!)

"He asked again, saying 'Why did you come here? Are you just here to 
study Japanese? Is Hogoji just a language school to you?' He's such a 
sincere guy...

"...I looked at Koji and told him pointedly, 'That's right. I have 
absolutely no interest in Zen at all.' He gaped at me. 'I came here 
merely to study Japanese for free. In zazen I review vacabulary.' I 
started listing the words he had taught me in the first week and Koji was 
on the ground clutching his sides. I even got a reaction from Maku, who 
smiled. I was pleased and dried another dish."

- --Thank You and OK!--An American Zen Failure in Japan (Robert Chadwick)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:35:23 -0400
From: Thomas Walter Trelenberg <tomt@scri.fsu.edu>
Subject: Could someone send me....

Hi there,

Due to studying for comprehensive exams and other responibilities I have
not been part of any Traveller list for about a year (x-boat quite
sending and I really disn't have time anyway)....but now that things
have cleared up a bit, I have just resubscibed to this list (yeahhhh!)
Unforunately, it seems I signed on just a bit too late to catch some
really good stuff and I was wondering if anyone could send it privately
to me or at least give me digest numbers so I can dig them up in the FTP
archives.  I signed on just as the last flame-war was cresting and began
to subside (at least that aspect of the list hasn't changed--oh well)
and I have heard reference to KBv2.0 for combat rules and everyone was
talking about "Valentine Rose" (an adventure?).  Anyway, what I am
looking for is KBv2.0 and mods that other TMLers have made to it and
whatever was posted for Valentine Rose.  I don't want to clog the list
with reposts so if someonne could send to tomt@scri.fsu.edu I sure would
appreciate it.

Second, I just had a thought about the "jump troop" discussion:

I may be missing something (forgive me if this is true) but it seems
that for whatever reason, the ship lauching the jump troops was not
detected jumping into the system.  Given that, how about a sneakier,
long term approach.  Create a pod that contains your marines in cold
sleep and power for a few months.  Insert inside a small asteroid (so
that sensors will just see "a rock")  Let the pod go on a coarse that
makes it look like an incoming meteor from the far reaches of the
system.  As the "meteor" approaches the atmosphere have it shed its
rocky covering allowing it to use its atmospheric breaking, thrusters,
and whatever else.  A small computer begins waking your troops at some
point during all this.  Then procede as with normal jump troop
insertion, but hopefully with quite a bit of surprise.  

This is just an idea for people to play with/shoot down/whatever...I was
just putting it out for discussion.  Would such an insertion device be
so large that an impact scare would raise even more alarm at an earlier
time.....

Anyway...Its great to be back on the list.  I look forward to
interacting with you all again

Thanks

Tom Trelenberg

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1368
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, May 26 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1369



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Deck Plans
Re: Fans and Players
Re: Jump Troops
Re: Pocket Empires (First Impression)
Re: fans and players
Re: Jump troop tactics (longish)
Re: Companions of the Road?
Re: Could someone send me....
Re: The last Straw--The Last Word
Re: "Chill Out You Goobers :-)"
Character Damage Record
Re: Money...That's What I Want!
Miscellaneous Equipment Sheet
TML Flame War Like WWI
Character Financial Record
TL 1 Pysadian Cold Weather Clothing
Re: Red Shores at Night
The TML Cares
Re: Jump Troops
Re: Jump Troops
Re: T4 Equipment Sheet & Living Expenses
RE: Re.- T2300

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 23:16:43 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Deck Plans

On Sun, 25 May 1997 13:01:02 +0000, you wrote:

> I'm looking for some deck plans.  Maybe some of you can help.
> 
> I need plans for a 200 ton type VA Vargr Trader and for a very large
> ship--the 3000 ton type AT Freighter.
> 
> If you know where I can find these, then please let me know--I would
> appreciate it!

I have a 40K .GIF file for the Ueknou Class Vargr Corsair, but not the
trader.  Sorry.

James W. Lindsay     Vancouver, British Columbia
  "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
    the grace to accept the things I cannot,
         and a great big bag of money."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 16:40:11 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fans and Players

Hmmm...I'm a fan...a shelf-ful of books right next to me, and the ones
that aren't on the shelf are sprawled all over the desk right now.

I'm a player, in two PBEM campaigns (Git yer butt up them stairs Tim! ;-)

I'm a designer, too, I've put a small share of the stuff out there.

NEXT!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 10:53:21 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Troops

On Sun, 25 May 1997, David J. Golden wrote:

> At 12:46 pm 05/26/97 +1000, you wrote:
> >On Fri, 23 May 1997, David J. Golden wrote:
> >
> >> I was playing around with with jump troops, wondering what size the
> >> launcher actually had to be, and came up with some interesting numbers. I
> >> basically started with the classical idea that drop troops are for surprise
> >> attacks.
> >[snip]
> >
> >This is cool, but I have a few comments.  You assume they will be more
> >vulnerable then they should be.  The reason they seem to be vulnerable is
> >that they are not being backed up.  Historicaly no General in his right
> >mind would drop paratroopers (a close equivalent of JTroops ?) into a
> >combat zone without a) total air superiority and b) there is some kind of
> >combined naval/ground action at the same time.
> 
> 	Actually, the "vulnerability" assumption was based on an attempt at a
> lightning surprise strike, which is the "classic" use for jump troops.
> Under those conditions, you haven't even started to gain air/space
> superiority, nor any other actions. As you point out, departing from that
> changes things.
[snip]

Ok, so your trying to do a surgical incersion, like, the SAS being droped
behind Iraq lines or when the US special op's dropped on Panamas
dictator, right?

That changes the game.  Perhaps Jump Troops are not the best option?
Bringing in SpecialOps on a commercial flight or trade vessel may be
better?  Don't know enougth about Traveller military ops to comment.

Michael

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


The division of humanity into rulers and
ruled will always be unalterable.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:56:26 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Pocket Empires (First Impression)

On Mon, 26 May 1997 FKiesche@concentric.net wrote:

> The book itself was absolutely **not** what I expected. I was expecting a 
> supplement along the lines of M0, i.e., here's the situation in several 
> pocket empires outside the young Third Imperium. Instead what we get is a 
> complete and independent game, with year-long turns, set on a sector (or 
> larger) scale. I'm guessing the intention was to generate adversaries for 
> the Third Imperium to run into, but I can see running this as a game, 
> maybe PBEM style, with players submitting one turn/week...letting an 
> alternate history grow.

Actually, PE is set up for play as a game.  It's certainly usable to 
create background - and, in fact, I think that's one suggested use in the 
book - but the primary thrust was to create something for people to play 
on a grand scale.  And yes, it is particularly well suited to PBM or 
PBEM. :)


> Great job folks! Can't wait to see the next installment from this design 
> team. 

Thanks. :)  


> Now for MWM's next contribution--will it be T4 Mark 2 or will it be 
> Anomalies? Personally I would like to see a good volume of adventures 
> first...

MWM's next contribution will be T4.1, AFAIK.

Anomalies is ten separate adventures, half of which are linked within an 
ongoing story. It's designed by Steve Miller and Duane Maxwell. (This 
info comes from JTAS 26, BTW, which goes into a bit more detail.)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh  |  Game Designer for Marc Miller's Traveller
_________________|  Atari 1200XL and Apple IIGS User and Programmer

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 00:55:18 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: fans and players

>For Pocket Empires, here's the back cover blurb:

Back cover blurb on an IG book. At last!!! They do listen! ;-)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Feel the guilt / like shackles round your feet / like a halo in reverse"
                     Depeche Mode "Violator"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:16:06 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Jump troop tactics (longish)

On Mon, 26 May 1997, The Stump Family wrote:

> As an ex-member of an Airborne unit who GMs for former paratroopers, I
> had been thinking about the 'proper' use of jump troops for about a week
> before the original posting here (I'm jealous I didn't bring it up
> first!). I am going to assume my opinion on how it may 'go off' will
> interest someone (and I love to have my plans critiqued).
[snip]

Good tactics.  Which got me thinking, what would be the counter measure,
assuming the defender had no Space Navy (destroyed?) and the JTroopers
made it to the ground using the scenario you described.

Do what the Germans planed to do, but failed to execute correctly during
DDay - send in the Armoured units.   The problem with Jtroops/para is they
have very limited supplies - there is only so much they can carry at any
one time, making their long term survivability limited without backup.

Also, the moment word had gotten out that JTroopers had landed in force
over three target city's, I would have my meson cannons pointing into the
sky and any Air Factors patrolling for troop transports, in an attempt to
knock them out before landing.  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:01:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Companions of the Road?

CardSharks@aol.com (Marc Miller) wrote:

>In a message dated 97-05-25 16:35:35 EDT, you write:
>> 
>>  According to Shadis Magazine, Marc Miller has signed a contract with
>>  Wisconsin based Corsair Publishing for a new *Fantasy* RPG titled
>>  _Companions of the Road_ which should be out in August.
>>  
>>  Does anybody knows more about this?
>>  
>I am working on this game with Corsair Publishing. What do you want to know?

What is the focus of the game?  What is the setting like, what makes it
unique (either in system or in setting)...?  I'll be at Gencon and am
interested in taking a look. 


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:30:25 -0700
From: David Kenney <dkenney@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Could someone send me....

Thomas Walter Trelenberg wrote:
> 
> Hi there,

[Snip info request]

> 
> Second, I just had a thought about the "jump troop" discussion:
> 
> I may be missing something (forgive me if this is true) but it seems
> that for whatever reason, the ship lauching the jump troops was not
> detected jumping into the system.  Given that, how about a sneakier,
> long term approach.  Create a pod that contains your marines in cold
> sleep and power for a few months.  Insert inside a small asteroid (so
> that sensors will just see "a rock")  Let the pod go on a coarse that
> makes it look like an incoming meteor from the far reaches of the
> system.  As the "meteor" approaches the atmosphere have it shed its
> rocky covering allowing it to use its atmospheric breaking, thrusters,
> and whatever else.  A small computer begins waking your troops at some
> point during all this.  Then procede as with normal jump troop
> insertion, but hopefully with quite a bit of surprise.

I see two problems with this.  First, on a world where they have a
reasonable tech level they would propably be quite familiar with meteor
patterns in and around their space.  Second, what types of side effects
would the troopers have from such a long hibernation.  I can not believe
they could go into a month long slumber and be combat ready in the
matter of hours or even a few days.

> 
> This is just an idea for people to play with/shoot down/whatever...I was
> just putting it out for discussion.  Would such an insertion device be
> so large that an impact scare would raise even more alarm at an earlier
> time.....

In order to avoid my second point, an asteroid large enough probably
would create such a scare, but as to which is better......  Attack while
no one expects or when everyone is expecting something worse.  Hmmm,
interesting situation.  Any thoughts, anyone?

> 
> Anyway...Its great to be back on the list.  I look forward to
> interacting with you all again
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Tom Trelenberg

Welcome back (I am new here myself).  Hope this gave you something to
think about.

David

- -- 
To our Marines fell the most difficult and dangerous portion of the
defense by reason of our proximity to the great city wall and the main
city gate... The Marines acquitted themselves nobly.

(Mr. Edwin N. Conger, U.S. Minister, in commending the Marines for the
defense of the legations at Peking, China, in 1900)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:05:19 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: The last Straw--The Last Word

>    This list has seen more than its share of hard feelings.  I recall
> the flame wars that took place when TNE was announced.  *Those* were
> true flame wars.  Verbal napalm, fuel-air explosives and the occasional
> nuke.  I did not participate in them directly, but they literally spread
> off TML and over to other Traveller discussion areas.  As a regular on
> the GEnie Traveller areas, I fought on the pro-GDW side. 

A veteran of the psychic wars...

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:05:20 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: "Chill Out You Goobers :-)"

> T::>I think Ken had made a solid effort to communicate with IG in a
>  ::>friendly fashion. He wasn't just a screamer, yelling about how bad
>  ::>everything was. He was actually trying to help by sending specific
>  ::>suggestions in a private manner. And IG's response to his overtures
>  ::>was somewhat less than acceptable, at least by my way of thinking.
> 
>  And this concerns me, as well.  However, I get the impression
>  that this also took place before the reacquisition of firm
>  creative control by Marc; my gut reaction is that Marc, at
>  least, will be more receptive to this. 

When, actually, did Marc take over?  I was sending these posts as 
late as the beginning of May--when I got the note from IG to quit.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:05:12 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Character Damage Record

I've designed a hit point sheet for my game so that the character's 
sheet will last a little longer before it has to be replaced.

This is a two column sheet with a place to put the character's name.  
There's plenty of room if you want to date when a character is 
wounded or make a notation as to what type of damage it is 
(stun/lethal).

It's a pretty plain sheet, but it may save you the work.

Like all my sheets, its in Word v2.0 but can be imported to later 
versions.

If you want it, let me know.

Kenneth.

PS  other sheets I have available are--

Vechicle Card (designed by Marc Miller)

T4 Character Sheet (designed for KBv2.0 but easily converted to the 
official system)

T4 Slug Ammo Sheet (originally designed for TNE information, but can 
be used for any edition of Traveller

T4 Money Sheet (to keep track of a character's funds)

TL 1 Pysadian Cold Weather Clothing Equipment Sheet

TL 3 Pysadian Filter Mask

Miscellaneous Equipment Sheet (with rules for use)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:05:17 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Money...That's What I Want!

> Actually, anybody have a rough approximation of how much a Imperial 
> Credit (Classic Traveller era, preferred) would be worth in terms of US 
> Dollars?

Marc posted on this a few months back.  Although I've seen different 
comparisons, he said that 1 Imperial credit has the buying power of 1 
US dollar (roughly).

> Also, I figure on using a decimal system for Credits. Anybody ever come 
> up with neato designations for each bill/coin equivalent (Cleons, Cleon 
> II's, etc.)?

No, but there's a description of CT era Imperial credits (hard cash 
currency) in the library data of the Traveller Adventure.

If you wish, I'll post the entry for you.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:05:15 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Miscellaneous Equipment Sheet

Want a place to record miscellaneous items like a character's ID, 
licenses, and medals?  Want a short couple of paragraphs on how to 
use miscellaneous equipment in your game?

Then this is the sheet for you.

As always, it is in Word v2.0--importabel to later versions.

Let me know via private e-mail.

Kenneth.

PS  other sheets I have available are--

Vechicle Card (designed by Marc Miller)

T4 Character Sheet (designed for KBv2.0 but easily converted to the
official system)

T4 Slug Ammo Sheet (originally designed for TNE information, but can
be used for any edition of Traveller

T4 Money Sheet (to keep track of a character's funds)

TL 1 Pysadian Cold Weather Clothing Equipment Sheet

TL 3 Pysadian Filter Mask

T4 Character Damage Record (to keep track of hit points)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:05:18 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: TML Flame War Like WWI

>    I came to the defense of a fellow TMLer because I felt he was being
> flamed unfairly.  In response, I was flamed.  I responded with more
> flame.  As in most wars, the calls for peace were received on this end
> after I had launch my last barrage.

On an interesting note, I can really grasp the concept of how WWI 
started.  I used it as an anology in explaining to my players (who 
are not on this list) how the great Flame War of '97 got started.

My "Burn, baby, burn" was the bullet that killed Archduke Ferdinand.  
The ally system took over after that.  Pretty soon, it was in 
nobody's hands and took on a life all its own.

Well, there, ya see--something good did come out of the Flame Fest.  
I learned to comprehend something better.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:05:13 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Character Financial Record

I've designed a sheet to keep track of a character's funds.

There's three columns, one for Hard Currency Total, one for Hard 
Currency on person, and one for Electronic Cash Total (for use with 
high tech money cards).

There's also a place for the character's name and room for notes if 
another unit of currency is used (that is not the Imperial Credit).

Of course, it is in Word v2.0 and importable to later versions.

Send me an e-mail if you'd like to have it.

Kenneth.

PS  other sheets I have available are--

Vechicle Card (designed by Marc Miller)

T4 Character Sheet (designed for KBv2.0 but easily converted to the
official system)

T4 Slug Ammo Sheet (originally designed for TNE information, but can
be used for any edition of Traveller

T4 Damage Record (to keep track of a character's hit points)

TL 1 Pysadian Cold Weather Clothing Equipment Sheet

TL 3 Pysadian Filter Mask

Miscellaneous Equipment Sheet (with rules for use)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:05:14 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: TL 1 Pysadian Cold Weather Clothing

I'm playing the Traveller Adventure, and right now, we are on Pysadi. 
 I've put together a DGP style equipment sheet for TL 1 Cold Weather 
Clothing and given it a "Pysadian edge".

If you need a generic cold weather sheet, this one is easily 
converted by deleting a few references to Pysadi in the description 
section.

Rules for use are included in the description, and I have created a 
Vargr version as well.

Should you want this, e-mail me, and I'll send it to you.  It's in 
Word v2.0.

Kenneth.

PS  other sheets I have available are--

Vechicle Card (designed by Marc Miller)

T4 Character Sheet (designed for KBv2.0 but easily converted to the
official system)

T4 Slug Ammo Sheet (originally designed for TNE information, but can
be used for any edition of Traveller

T4 Money Sheet (to keep track of a character's funds)

T4 Character Damage Record (to keep track of a character's hit 
points)

TL 3 Pysadian Filter Mask

Miscellaneous Equipment Sheet (with rules for use)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:05:16 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Red Shores at Night

> Anybody have a list or narrative telling why various Red Zones in the 
> Spinward Marches are red? I know that some of them (Shionthy, Victoria, 
> Andor, Candory) are listed with Imperium-related reasons. I also know 
> that one Sword World Red Zone is a SW navy bombing area. But how about 
> the others?

I'm playing the Traveller Adventure right now.  It's set in the 
Aramis subsector.  I can relate those red zones to you.

Red Zones--

Corfu.  Interdicted by the Imperium as a quarantine measure.  
Approximately forty years ago, a virulent, crippling disease appeared 
and has since come to affect 5% of the population.  No cure for the 
disease is yet known, although some treatments have been found to 
relieve some of its effects.  The Imperial Scout Service maintains a 
surveillance post in the system and is working to find a cure.  In 
the interim, access to the world is prohibited.

Zykoca.  An agricultural world under interdiction.  Local society is 
extremely xenophobic, and all contact offworld has been suspended.  
Foreigners are distrusted and have no standing in local society.  The 
world was interdicted after a local mob broke into the starport, 
killing several offworlders.

Lewis.  An interdicted world holding the estates of the Tukera 
family.


These are the only three Red zones in the Aramis subsector.  If you 
would like, I'll list the info regarding the Amber zones as well--but 
I don't want to type all of that unless it is helpful to you.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:05:08 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: The TML Cares

>  And that appears to have again been the case, with the latest
>  offer from IG to honestly listen to our suggestions on
>  what we would like to see in the combined FS/M:0 rerelease -
>  essentially, a request to know how we would correct the flaws
>  that have caused such an uproar.  The quick response in this
>  case and the last is one of the reasons I'm willing to consider
>  as a possibility what I suggested above.

I am hoping that the TML-FS Project will never become a reality.  
From Tim Brown's request, which was referred to the list by Dave 
Golden, and Marc's recent post on the FS data, it looks like IG will 
fix the FS data by themselves.

And trust me, that's a good thing--and IG's place to do it.

If they don't though, the TML-FS Project has grown from two people 
(me and Michael) to over 20 volunteers!

That's really a good sign.  People on this really care about 
Traveller.  

And it is great to note that, just after the Great Flame War of '97, 
all of these people have banded together and committed their time for 
the good of the game.

That really says something to me about how people feel.

IG, if you are listening, many of us get emotional about Traveller, 
and we are defensive when we perceive that bad decisions are made 
about the game.

But, you've got to realize that this is a good thing.  It may not 
seem so at times, but what you've got at your disposal is a bunch of 
people on this list that really want to see Traveller succeed.

We are your core customers, and we love the game.

If I was a manufactuer and saw those types of people, I'd thank my 
lucky stars--customers who crave what I make.

We'll be on your side and defend you to the end as long as we think 
that you are doing something good for Traveller.

You should use this to your advantage.  Although I see improvement in 
IG, what I really want is to refer to IG in the same way I refer to 
DGP.

From some of your products--the EA, for instance, I see indications 
of that.  But, you've got to earn that place in our hearts.

You've got some things to overcome from past products, but I gurantee 
you that if we see a string of EA quality products, the past growing 
pains will be all but forgotten.

I, for one anyway, am willing to let you try.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 18:25:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Troops

> Date: Mon, 26 May 97 15:29:28 -0500
> From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
> 
> Couldn't you use the planet's orbital velocity to overtake the jump
> capsules while the ship stays at higher speed on the pass? The ship
> would be killing some of the capsules velocity in respect the planet,
> and the planet would overtake the capsules.
[snippage]

As the ship's velocity relative to the target planet is the only velocity
that 'matters' in this context, this idea doesn't end up being meaninful.
The planet overtaking the capsules from a faster-moving ship is just the
same casules moving toward the stationary planet from a slower-moving
ship, viewed from a different inertial frame of reference.

> Nearing the surface the "Trooper" would be ejected from
> the capsule at 40, 50, 60 g's and ride the rest of the way down on a
> final parachute or perhaps a grav belt.

Yummmmm...that's my favorite recipe for "Mashed Jump-Trooper in the
Shell." :)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 19:11:02 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Troops

At 03:29 pm 05/26/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Dave,
>
>I don't know if you factored this in, but...
>
>Couldn't you use the planet's orbital velocity to overtake the jump
>capsules while the ship stays at higher speed on the pass? The ship
>would be killing some of the capsules velocity in respect the planet,
>and the planet would overtake the capsules.  The capsules would have
>small steering rockets to get them into the atmosphere where they would
>at meteoric speed, and use ablative sheilding and a series of parachutes
>to slow down.  Nearing the surface the "Trooper" would be ejected from
>the capsule at 40, 50, 60 g's and ride the rest of the way down on a
>final parachute or perhaps a grav belt.
>
>I haven't tried to look at the numbers, but this would seem to work
>better than having the ship slow to orbital velocity and launching the
>capsules at the planet.

	I haven't had time to look at _anything_ other than the first numbers I
created (it was a slow day at work ...).
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 97 16:48:34 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: T4 Equipment Sheet & Living Expenses

On 05/26/97 at 12:55 PM,  "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
said:

> I had responded to this question a while back suggesting that 
> incidental expenses be taken from a character using the MT rule 
> (Cr250 x SS per month;  MTPM page 30).

Ken, I use this rule of thumb: 

At home.......5cr*SS per day
Travelling...10cr*SS per day 

SS is NOT the character's actual social class, it is the level at which
he/she is living right now.  This way a down on his luck noble can rough
it at a lower level, and a low class prospecter that's hit the mother
load can live it up on his windfall.

Additionally, this is a little lower than the MT rule for
stay-at-homes, and a little higher for Travellers.  That's as it should
be.  ;->

You might want to check out the amount of money an average PC would
spend per month this way.  I really think 4-6KCr/month is too high a
salary for ship crew, half that would be more realistic I think.

> PPS  Eris, I know that you already want the sheet.  It's on the way!

Yes, I do, and here it is! ;-> Thanks Ken.

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 14:11:02 +1200
From: Brody  Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Re.- T2300

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> ----------
> From: 	Miguel Rodriguez[SMTP:Miguel_Rodriguez@seker.es]
> Reply To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
> Sent: 	Wednesday, 14 May 1997 04:29
> To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: 	Re.- T2300
> 
> Dear Gentlemen,
> Anbody knows a useful email adress to ask about T2300? It's actually
> alive
> in the 'net?
> Thanks,
> 
> miguel.
> 

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- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC6AA7.D0A7ECC0--

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1369
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, May 27 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1370



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

IG News update
Re: Casualties
RE: Sector Data
Re: Jump Troops
RE: T4 Equipment Sheet & Living Expenses
Re: Jump troop tactics (longish)
Re: Fans and Players
Re: Red Shores at Night
Re: Jump troop tactics (longish)
Re: Jump Troops
Hiver and Ithklur
PBEMs?
Re: Sector Data
Re: T4 Equipment Sheet & Living Expenses

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 13:11:31 +1000
From: Jason Anderson <midnight@kagi.com>
Subject: IG News update

Hi all,

For those of you who don't look at the IG web site very often, they have
just posted an update on their news page. It talks about the M0/FS problem,
delays with Pocket Empires, and when they are planning on releasing the
next few items (Anomalies, Psionics Institutes, and The Long Way Home are
due to be released on the 31st of May. T4.1 will be released in August).
Also, people ordering the M0/FS book via internet will get a $3 discount
(ie: $26.95), as will people on the pre-order plan.

Just thought people would like to know.

(Of course, knowing my luck the info will be posted to the TML, and get
through before my message does. Then won't I look silly. Oh well.)

Cheers,
Jason

- -------
Beyond Midnight Software                               <midnight@kagi.com>
                                      <http://www.vision.net.au/~midnight>

             If it's not on fire then it's a software problem.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:17:06 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Casualties

At 09:29 AM 5/22/97 +0100, you wrote:
>>Now, of course, if a TL12 battlefield follows the trends of current
>>warfare, particularly if energy or gauss weapons are used a lot, first aid
>>might be turned into 'Hey..are you alive?'  Combat could be far deadlier,
>>with few injuries, and lots of people scratched or dead, with little in
>>between.
>
>Are there any studies showing an increased lethality in modern warfare? I
>thought the opposite was true except for civilians.

Lethality went way down with improved evacuation methods.  Since a wounded
man is know often withing minutes of a surgical unit, his chances of
surviving what would have been fatal damage just a few years ago have gone
way up.
- --

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
|   "Wide unclasp the tables of their thoughts    |
|  These same thoughts people this little World"  |
|      - inscription on a stained glass window,   |
|        found in the Winchester Mystery House.   |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:21:57 +0400
From: Andy Long <andyl@icluae.co.ae>
Subject: RE: Sector Data

>>>>
>-----Original Message-----
>From:	CardSharks@aol.com [SMTP:CardSharks@aol.com]
>Sent:	Monday, May 26, 1997 7:50 PM
>I have a tab delimited text file (342K) of the sector data contained in FS.
>[andy long]  <Snip> 
>Since this is a big file, I am not attaching it here. If you want a copy,
>please send me a request at
>[andy long]  <<<<
>
>Mark - yes please. I'm just starting to get into T4, and would like to
>examine the data.
>
>Andy
>
>================================================================
>smtp Email:		andyl@icluae.co.ae OR
>			andylong@x400.icl.co.uk OR
>			A.G.Long@abu0101.wins.icl.co.uk OR
>			andylong@emirates.net.ae
>x400 Email:		c=ae;a=emdan;p=icl;ou1=abu0101;
>			s=Long;i=AG;
>			o=International Computers Ltd;
>A.G. Long, c/o ICL	Phone:	+971 (2) 335200/338066
>PO Box 7237		Fax:	+971 (2) 338724
>Abu Dhabi
>United Arab Emirates
>================================================================
>
> 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 97 23:21:33 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Jump Troops

On 05/26/97 at 06:25 PM,  Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net> said:

> > Nearing the surface the "Trooper" would be ejected from
> > the capsule at 40, 50, 60 g's and ride the rest of the way down on a
> > final parachute or perhaps a grav belt.

> Yummmmm...that's my favorite recipe for "Mashed Jump-Trooper in the
> Shell." :)

I don't know Craig, don't ejection seats normally opearte at over 40g's? 
You couldn't give 'em more than a second or two, though.

The reason I brought up using the planet's orbital velocity, was because
it looked like everybody was assuming the ship would decellerate into an
orbit and then launch the capsules at the planet.  It seemed more
reasonable for the ship to fly past and launch the capsules back along
the path of the planet's orbit..ie decelerating the capsules.  Don't
expect to be doing this in Akus, Craig ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:41:56 +0400
From: Andy Long <andyl@icluae.co.ae>
Subject: RE: T4 Equipment Sheet & Living Expenses

>>>>
>-----Original Message-----
>From:	eris@pen.net [SMTP:eris@pen.net]
>Sent:	Tuesday, May 27, 1997 1:49 AM
>On 05/26/97 at 12:55 PM,  "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
>said:
>
>> I had responded to this question a while back suggesting that 
>> incidental expenses be taken from a character using the MT rule 
>> (Cr250 x SS per month;  MTPM page 30).
>
>Ken, I use this rule of thumb: 
>
>At home.......5cr*SS per day
>Travelling...10cr*SS per day 
>
>SS is NOT the character's actual social class, it is the level at which
>he/she is living right now.  This way a down on his luck noble can rough
>it at a lower level, and a low class prospecter that's hit the mother
>load can live it up on his windfall.
>[andy long]  <<<<
>
>OTOH, the rules state that if you DON'T live up to your SS, then it WILL
>degrade. Imagine, if you will, Meiinir hault Randovaal, after living on the
>streets for a while, trying to get an interview with the planetary ruler -
>will the leader's private secretary REALLY believe that this Street Person
>(can I say that? is it PC?) is actually a knight of the Empire?
>
Andy

================================================================
smtp Email:		andyl@icluae.co.ae OR
			andylong@x400.icl.co.uk OR
			A.G.Long@abu0101.wins.icl.co.uk OR
			andylong@emirates.net.ae
x400 Email:		c=ae;a=emdan;p=icl;ou1=abu0101;
			s=Long;i=AG;
			o=International Computers Ltd;
A.G. Long, c/o ICL	Phone:	+971 (2) 335200/338066
PO Box 7237		Fax:	+971 (2) 338724
Abu Dhabi
United Arab Emirates
================================================================

>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:05:57 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Jump troop tactics (longish)

At 11:16 AM 5/27/97 +1000, you wrote:

>Good tactics.  Which got me thinking, what would be the counter measure,
>assuming the defender had no Space Navy (destroyed?) and the JTroopers
>made it to the ground using the scenario you described.

It has always been my assumption that jump troops (or as I call them, Rapid
Interface Troops) could be dropped during the battle, since deploying them
doesn't require extensive use of small craft.

A drop ship scoots into a minimum-time orbit, blows off a company of
Marines, and gets out.  Those Marines establish a beach-head, and in
general cause as much chaos and disruption as possible.

Once on the ground, the J-troops are basic infantry, even with the
advantages of battledress and plasma weapons.  If they aren't supported
quickly, they'll die.

>Do what the Germans planed to do, but failed to execute correctly during
>DDay - send in the Armoured units.   The problem with Jtroops/para is they
>have very limited supplies - there is only so much they can carry at any
>one time, making their long term survivability limited without backup.

Exactly.  In a planetary invasion scenario, j-troops would be limited to
making the initial assult to seize a secured landing zone for the follow-on
heavy forces.  Of course, supply could be maintained at a minimal level by
cargo drops from orbit, but it would be chancy.

>Also, the moment word had gotten out that JTroopers had landed in force
>over three target city's, I would have my meson cannons pointing into the
>sky and any Air Factors patrolling for troop transports, in an attempt to
>knock them out before landing.

Once again, in a planetary invasion scenario, I'm not going to commit my
landing force unless I have a good chance of suceeding.  I don't have to
land at your gates, just as long as I have a place where I can bring down
the Army's heavy divisions in relative safety.  

- --

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
|   "Wide unclasp the tables of their thoughts    |
|  These same thoughts people this little World"  |
|      - inscription on a stained glass window,   |
|        found in the Winchester Mystery House.   |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 20:45:10 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Fans and Players

At 07:37 AM 5/26/97 -0500, Joe wrote:

>JTAS 26:  JTAS is now slick stock, with several color pages inside.  It's 
>still 48 pages.  Table of contents:
>
>4.  Contact: Suerrat, by John Snead
>	This new Traveller race loves to cuddle pets and doesn't mind a 
>	few acts of carefully planned terrorism.

Nice to see this get published.

>9.  Strike!, by Douglas E. Berry
>	Sometimes good deals are too good to refuse and too good to be true.

Doug tries to focus.. after four days at BayCon (lesson 1: don't go to the
'80s Dance in motorcycle boots) nothing could shake the utter exhaustion he
feels.  Then he reads the above line.

WOO HOO!!!!!!

>47. Under Construction, by Timothy Brown
>	Here's a sneak-peak at some upcoming Traveller products.

Hopefully this will be a bit more up-to-date.. It'd also be nice to see
related non-Traveller products mentioned.

>48. At the Con, by Clayton R. Bush
>	Take a couple of Traveller tips from a veteran con-goer.

Well, the best advice would be lesson 1, mentioned above...

>For Pocket Empires, here's the back cover blurb:

Hey, we finally get blurbs!

- --

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
|   "Wide unclasp the tables of their thoughts    |
|  These same thoughts people this little World"  |
|      - inscription on a stained glass window,   |
|        found in the Winchester Mystery House.   |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:34:59 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Red Shores at Night

At 05:42 PM 5/26/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Greetings All:
>
>Still trying to catch up on the TML digests (up to about mid-April now!). 
>It's been a busy few months.
>
>Anybody have a list or narrative telling why various Red Zones in the 
>Spinward Marches are red? I know that some of them (Shionthy, Victoria, 
>Andor, Candory) are listed with Imperium-related reasons. I also know 
>that one Sword World Red Zone is a SW navy bombing area. But how about 
>the others?
>
>Even heretical, non-canonical thoughts would be welcome!

For the Lunion Subsector (these are from my own campaign, be warned.)

Penkwhar

Home to a small human culture (one city of around 3000 permanent residents
is known, total population is probably in the millions.)

These humans are not associated with any known colony effort, and seem to
be Vilani!  The IISS interdicted Penkwhar in the early 700s in order to
inestigate this anomoly.

Gorram

Homeworld of a violently xenophobic race, Gorram is interdicted by the Navy.

Shirene (Amber)

Many animals on this world carry Turner's Syndrome, a rabies-like
infection.  There is no cure, and most sufferers are put to death before
the final stages of the disease, which features murderous rages and other
psychotic behavoir.

- --

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
|   "Wide unclasp the tables of their thoughts    |
|  These same thoughts people this little World"  |
|      - inscription on a stained glass window,   |
|        found in the Winchester Mystery House.   |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:17:44 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Jump troop tactics (longish)

At 09:55 AM 5/26/97 -0600, you wrote:

>	Very fascinating and detailed analysis; definitely a keeper. I like it a
>lot ... for a full scale invasion. Again, I'm trying to make Jump Troops
>work with the classic Heinlein-style limited hit & run strike, with *NO*
>collateral damage. That prohibits extensive sabotage, EMPs, nukes, LZ prep
>via submunitions, etc. The first indication the locals should have is a
>bunch of megacephalic steel gorillas rampaging through downtown. Have you
>read "Starship Trooper?"

Your wish is my command, sahib.  (Why does this thread start while I'm at
BayCon?  Sheesh!)

I've been playing around with a 300-ton Marine drop ship.. carries one
platoon of Marines (48 men), and can drop them all in a 15 minute window.
This doesn't look like a military vessel on the sensors, so you have to get
real close to ID it.

The ship settles into orbit, and launches the Marines along with the dummy
pods, an EMS jammer, and any other toys needed for the mission.  At the
same time, the pinnace undocks and statrts setting up for the recovery.

The Marines blow their shells at 30,000 ft (assuming Earth-like atmospheric
pressure) and proceed to do a HALO onto the target.  Modern day Airborne
can hit a ten foot target when jumping from this height, so I don't see why
the Marines would be any different.

Once down, the Marines would proceed to cause shit to occur, in great
quantities.  Each Marines would have his copy of the op order downloaded,
and his BD's HUD would provide targeting information, a time
elapsed/recovery countdown clock, and a mission status display.

Pick-up is the riskiest element, since a large vessel has to land and hold
still long enough for the Marines to board.  Once aboard, the recovery
vessel initiates the "getting the hell out of here" maneuver, and
rendezvous with the transport, which should already be leaving orbit.

Total time on the ground: less than one hour.

- --

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
|   "Wide unclasp the tables of their thoughts    |
|  These same thoughts people this little World"  |
|      - inscription on a stained glass window,   |
|        found in the Winchester Mystery House.   |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 21:48:45 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Troops

At 06:25 PM 5/26/97 -0700, you wrote:

>Yummmmm...that's my favorite recipe for "Mashed Jump-Trooper in the
>Shell." :)

Well, we used to call a road-march in M-113 APCs during the summer a
"shake-n-bake"
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
|  Creative Planetologist, THUDDer, 20 year vet  |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
|  "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|  about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|  Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|   -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin"  |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 16:22:30 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Hiver and Ithklur

I just got this module second hand and I am having a read of it now.  Who
*is* the cynical person writing comments in italics all the way through
it?  Is it the SpecialOps officer?  and what the hell is the point of
the poem at the begining?


SaHua,

Michael

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


Loves not a game, its a battle;
you dont play, you fight.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 01:10:19 -0400
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: PBEMs?

Are there any Traveller PBEMs out there that are looking for players?  

How's about just willing to squeeze one in?

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:24:52 +0400
From: Andy Long <andyl@icluae.co.ae>
Subject: Re: Sector Data

Sorry guys - I meant to send that just to Mark. I really must learn to
read the 'to:' address before I press 'Send'!

Andy

================================================================
smtp Email:		andyl@icluae.co.ae OR
			andylong@x400.icl.co.uk OR
			A.G.Long@abu0101.wins.icl.co.uk OR
			andylong@emirates.net.ae
x400 Email:		c=ae;a=emdan;p=icl;ou1=abu0101;
			s=Long;i=AG;
			o=International Computers Ltd;
A.G. Long, c/o ICL	Phone:	+971 (2) 335200/338066
PO Box 7237		Fax:	+971 (2) 338724
Abu Dhabi
United Arab Emirates
================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 03:09:08 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: T4 Equipment Sheet & Living Expenses

- --Message-Boundary-27116
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Content-description: Mail message body


> SS is NOT the character's actual social class, it is the level at which
> he/she is living right now.  This way a down on his luck noble can rough
> it at a lower level, and a low class prospecter that's hit the mother
> load can live it up on his windfall.

I fudge the SS a little too if the character is not living at his 
real socail class.  Wasn't it MT that stated the neat idea that SS 
was variable over a character's life anyway?

> Additionally, this is a little lower than the MT rule for
> stay-at-homes, and a little higher for Travellers.  That's as it should
> be.  ;->

I agree.  As always, you've got a good rule.  

> > PPS  Eris, I know that you already want the sheet.  It's on the way!
> 
> Yes, I do, and here it is! ;-> Thanks Ken.

You've got others on the way now :>

Kenneth.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1370
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, May 27 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1371



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Pocket Empires and JTAS 26 (was: Re: Fans and Players)
Effective Feedback[LONG]
Re: Meson Radiation
RE: Infiltration of jump troopers
RE: Jump troop tactics (longish)
RE:Sector Data
Re: Living expenses (was: Equipment sheet)
Re: Jump troops
Re: Michael Collins (Way off topic!)
Re: FFS2 Beta | Small Arms test
RE:Sector Data
Re: Casualties
Re: Free Traders, Corps and Turnaround Time
Use of Jump Troops and non-use of EMP
Re: Living expenses (was: Equipment sheet)
Hard SF rant

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 10:25:42 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Pocket Empires and JTAS 26 (was: Re: Fans and Players)

- -> Heheheh.  Well, let's see.  PE is the worst product ever to hit the 
- -> streets.  _Starships_ puts it to shame.  I'm glad my name's not associated 
- -> with it.
Oh, that bad, ey? ;-)
- -> Pocket Empires is a Traveller game, just as Snapshot, Azhanti High 
- -> Lightning, Fifth Frontier War, Invasion: Earth, and so on were for CT.  
Sounds cool! I'll definitively look into it when i see it...
- -> In addition, the game includes two new career types (Diplomat and 
- -> Bureaucrat), several starter Pocket Empires scenarios, several standard 
- -> Patron encounters based on the premises in Pocket Empires, rules and 
- -> ideas for playing a standard Traveller game in the midst of the pocket 
- -> empires, rules for making a family tree and figuring out what the 
- -> children of two Traveller characters will be like in terms of UPP, and 
- -> the proverbial much, much more.
Souinds very interesting. Genetics in T4...
- -> Yup, all future products will have back cover blurbs.  You have Marc to 
- -> thank for that one, I believe...
Good man!
- -> 
- -> -> > Sounds excellent. Any more material on the growth of the 3I in here?
- -> Not really.  M0 Campaign's additional 32 pages has more 
information on 
- -> the growth of the 3I in all sectors in First Survey, though.
Ah yes, the famous 32 "missing" pages... (aargh, no, don't hit me...) 
- -> Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 97 09:32:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: Effective Feedback[LONG]

> Complaining to the list is becoming an excercise in preaching to the
> choir. You need to reach IG directly, and inform them directly of what
> is making you upset.  No diss to Joe, but one guy saying "the TML is
> upset" doesn't have nearly the impact of several dozen polite messages,
> clearly stating the problems you have with the current policies.
    Now THIS is an excellent idea.  Pardon me if this has been suggested
before, I'm using the long weeked to catch up on back Digests of the List.
However... Why don't we tell ALL of IG's people with e-mail addresses of our
displeasure at their current policies?  AND I DON'T MEAN MAILBOMB OR HATE MAIL
THEM!
    Sorry, that point had to made loudly a clearly, some people require a 2x4
between the eyes to get their attention and all of that!
    What would be effective would be each of us POLITELY, and I know that's
going to be the most difficult part of this process, but Politely informing
them that they are pissing off their established customer base and for what
reasons.  I have friends who run a small Game Store and they have taken the
time in the past to point out to me how the whole system of getting the Game
from the Publisher to the Store works.  It's quite possible (the only
reasonable explaination IMHO) that the people in Imperium Games are not aware
of the level of discontent in the customer base.
    Think about it before you flame me.  They (Imperium Games) deal primarily
with the Distributors, and Distributors are concerned with getting the product
from point A (Publisher) to point B (Game Store) and making a profit while
doing that.  At no time in this process does the Distributor CARE about what
the actual Gamers think about the Game!  And before you point out that they
should be monitoring TML here!  Think about it ;) Joe had to go to them and
VOLUNTEER to be their Net Rep, except for a couple of posting by Marc himself
making corrections or testing out ideas the last of which was months ago BTW.
    So the case could well be made that the people at Imperium just are no
hearing us.  I know that sounds idiotic, especially in light of what's being
said here, but if they aren't subscribed... they simply don't hear it.  And
even if someone mentions us occassionally we are easily dismissed as just a few
disgruntaled customers.  HOWEVER, fifty... sixity... seventy or more e-mails to
the right people Is Not Dismissable, it's a clear indication they've got a
major problem!  Why?

    A happy customer MAY tell 3 people, IN THEIR LIFETIME that they liked a
specific product or service.

    An Unhappy customer WILL tell a MINIMUM of 10 people within a WEEK of their
decision that the product or service made them Unhappy.  More people as time
passed for the rest of their lives until the problem is addressed to their
satisfaction!

    Worse!  The Unhappy Customer who actually TELLS THE COMPANY that they're
unhappy represents 10 to 20 OTHER UNHAPPY CUSTOMER who haven't tried to reach
the company yet.

    I'm not making this up BTW for the skeptical, this has been so well proven
it's now a principle of marketing a public relations. ;) Do the math, it gets
frightening FAST which is why major, and these days even minor, companies worry
about customer relations and/or perception.  The only companies that can ignore
customer unhappiness are monopolies, like MicroShlock FoEx.  Those that don't,
DIE.

    THUS  50... 60... 70... or more people taking the time to Find Their E-mail
Addresses and communicate their displeasure (as only we TMLer's have
demonstrated that we can ;) means that there are 500... 600... 700... seriously
unhappy customers out there.  Worse!  That means between 5,000 to 14,000
potential customers have been given Bad Press about T4 and Imperium Games (I'll
call them IG from now on.)  Even worse is the dynamics of the Gaming Customer
Base IG is trying to sell to, we talk to each other AND we ask each other's
opinions of new games.  I suspect the number of Gamers who have heard Bad Press
about T4 an IG is even higher, and the Gaming market IG is trying to sell to is
rather select and small, not to mention vocal.
    Thus IMHO if IG personel start getting dozens of polite e-mails telling
them they are fucking up and fucking over their customer base.  They will
either...

    1) Change and start doing thing right (PLEASE GOD!) or at LEAST start
talking to us. (The MINIMUM smart move.)

    2) Tell us to fuck off...
       At which point we all just sit back and see who gets the Rights to
Traveller next, 'cause this is Marc Miller's Last Chance. ;)

    That's my suggestion.  The reality here is that we're all just preaching to
the Choir here on the List.  I don't post much, but I am part of the larg
silent majority of Lurkers and not subscribed Traveller Player who is Extremely
Disappointed with T4 and what's followed.  Let's stop venting to each other and
pissing each other off because nothing gets done.  Let's go to the source hmm?

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 22:31:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Meson Radiation

In mail you write:

> My second question concerns meson weapons.  When a starship is hit by
> a meson weapon it results in internal explosions and the release of
> radiation.  How long will the the starship be radioactive?

Whoa! "Release of radiation" is *not* the same as "be[ing] radioactive".
As an example, if I zap you with X-rays, you'll have been exposed to
radiation, but there is no radioactivity involved.

Even allowing for the semi-magical nature of what Traveller calls
"mesons", induced radioactivity seems unlikely. So the ship *won't* be
radioactive, but there will be a burst of radiation when the meson
burst goes off.

> Could anyone please give me information on the level of
> radiation(rads?) per megajoule of the meson weapon and what the the
> half life of that radiation would be?

Half-life only applies to radioactive materials. So it won't apply here.

Some percentage of the energy will be released as radiation. I don't
believe that any of the books give a figure for this. 

> This has to do with a boarding party entering a damaged vessel.

Then there's nothing to worry about as the meson gun doesn't make
things radioactive. The only radiation is *as* it goes off. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 23:25:43 +1200
From: Brody  Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Infiltration of jump troopers

Should we use the term "Drop pods".  Jump pods is just too darn
confusing!

	>Hmmm... using jump pods to sneak down. Tough.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 23:25:46 +1200
From: Brody  Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Jump troop tactics (longish)

We always saw Drop Troups being used for fast surgical strikes -
designed to cripple and enemy and maybe even soften them up - Make them
come to the bargaining table (A much cheaper way to wage war.

And so I heartily agree with the earlier post from Douglas Berry.

	>The ship settles into orbit, and launches the Marines along
with the dummy
	>pods, an EMS jammer, and any other toys needed for the mission.
At the
	>same time, the pinnace undocks and statrts setting up for the
recovery.

	>The Marines blow their shells at 30,000 ft (assuming Earth-like
atmospheric
	>pressure) and proceed to do a HALO onto the target.  Modern day
Airborne
	>can hit a ten foot target when jumping from this height, so I
don't see why
	>the Marines would be any different.

	>Once down, the Marines would proceed to cause shit to occur, in
great
	>quantities.  Each Marines would have his copy of the op order
downloaded,
	>and his BD's HUD would provide targeting information, a time
	>elapsed/recovery countdown clock, and a mission status display.

	>Pick-up is the riskiest element, since a large vessel has to
land and hold
	>still long enough for the Marines to board.  Once aboard, the
recovery
	>vessel initiates the "getting the hell out of here" maneuver,
and
	>rendezvous with the transport, which should already be leaving
orbit.

	>Total time on the ground: less than one hour.

	And I agree with it all!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 10:00:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: RE:Sector Data

Greetings,

Commander X here with an important question.

I understand that MM is going to deal with the Sector Data snafu.  Does this 
mean that the group that was set up on this list to "adjust" the sectors is 
no more?  Or are we now to help with correcting the data with MM?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:09:23 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Living expenses (was: Equipment sheet)

Kenneth Bearden writes:
>>Is Cr4,000/mo really that good?  Have you made him sit down and
>>work out his expenses - and then drain his bank account as
>>needed to meet them? What does he do for "steady income" if he
>>decides instead to _use_ the high passage (two, actually), for
>>a vacation trip or some such?
> 
>I had responded to this question a while back suggesting that 
>incidental expenses be taken from a character using the MT rule 
>(Cr250 x SS per month;  MTPM page 30).

This rule is both broken in itself (Think about it: the difference in cost of 
living between the two lowest levels of society is 100% while the difference 
between two adjacent high levels is 10% or less; if that had been reversed it 
would make a lot more sense) and not compatible with the costs of food and 
lodging given in CT (and T4). Starvation level is Cr150 per month and 
subsistence level is Cr450 per month. But average, ordinary living can be had 
for Cr600 per month (This is based on the assumption that roughly the same 
amount of money is used on food, lodging, and basic necessities. Check your
budget. Dosen't it fit fairly well?). So an average citizen (SL 7) should
use Cr600 for food, lodging and basic necessities and Cr1150 for luxuries?
1/3 of dispoosable income for basics and 2/3rds for luxuries? Not in Denmark, 
anyway and I doubt it is the case in the US either. 

Back in 1779 one credit was worth about one US dollar. Today it is closer to 
between 1.5 and 2 dollars.

Here's my suggestion for an economic system that is fairly consistent with
Classic Traveller:


                        Basic economics for Traveller
                        =============================

Prices are expressed in local "credits". 1 credit (Cr) is one hour's pay for 
an unskilled worker regardless of what the local coinage is called. Imperial 
currency is called "Credits, Imperial" (Crimp) and can be (often is) worth
more than local credits since these depends on the economic strength of the
individual world. See _Trillion Credit Squadron_ page 32 about exchange 
rates. Crimps are worth the same as the credits of a world with a Class A
starport and the maximum TL of the Imperium  --  12 in the Year 0, 15 in
1105, etc.

Note: The credits are what is left over after taxes and after accounting for
dependents. If taxes are 50% then an unskilled worker would actually be paid
2 credits per hour. If the average earner supports 3 dependents he would get
4 credits (after taxes) and so on.


INCOME

Income usually depends on how respected an occupation is in the local 
society. Decide what social standing most practitioners of an occupation 
would have. The average salary for a competent, fully qualified member of 
that occupation can then be determined from the tabel below. Remember to 
adjust for taxes and usual number of dependents, counting one child as 1/2
a dependent.

   SS     Hour     Day       Month     Year
    1     0,9        9        225      2700
    2     1,2       12        300      3600
    3     1,6       16        400      4800
    4     2,0       20        500      6000
    5     2,4       24        600      7200
    6     2,9       29        725      8700
    7     3,4       34        850     10200
    8     4,0       40       1000     12000
    9     4,6       46       1150     13800

Incomes for social standings 10+ are highly individualistic and more or less
impossible to give general rules for.
 
Also note that though the correlation between social standing and income is
high, it is not 1. Some societies may pay well for having jobs considered
socially demeaning performed. Some religious figures may be poorly paid yet
highly respected, etc. Other considerations may also play a part. In pre-
industrial societies mercenaries are for example usually a lot more expensive 
than regular soldiers before and during campaign season, but can often be 
hired for little more than room and board during winter.


LIVING EXPENSES

Inn or hotel accomodations        day/week
  Common room                      2 / 10
  Bad room                         4 / 20
  Medium room                      8 / 40
  Good room                        2 /100

Restaurant food               poor/medium/good
  Breakfast                     1 /   2  / 3
  Lunch                         2 /   3  / 4
  Dinner                        3 /   6  /15
  Banquet                       - /  20  /60
  Full board/per day            5 /  10  /20
Local booze      
  Low alcohol, mug             0.5/   1  /1.5
  Medium alcohol, glass        0.5/   1  / 2
  High alcohol, shot           0.5/   1  / 2
Imported booze
  Medium alcohol, glass         - /   3  /7.5
  High alcohol, shot            - /   3  / 7 


LONG-TERM SUBSISTENCE (per month)

  Starvation level: Minimum food, Cr60. Dismal lodging, Cr60. Minimum 
necessities, Cr30.
  Subsistence level: Reasonable food, Cr150. Acceptable lodging, Cr150. 
Bare necessities, Cr150.
  Ordinary level: Good food, Cr200. Good lodging, Cr200. Basic necessities,
Cr200.
  Good living: Fine food, Cr400. Fine lodging, Cr400. Necesseties and 
comforts, Cr400.
  High living: Luxury food, Cr600. Luxury lodging, Cr600+. Necessities and
luxuries, Cr600+.

As a rule of thumb it can be assumed that a person can just keep up a life-
style that fits his social status for SS+2 * 50 credits per month (Ie. a 
person with SS 1 needs Cr150, one with S 2 needs Cr200, etc. Of these money
2/3rds goes to food and lodging and the rest to other stuff (clothes and 
other necessities and comforts). It is customary to use more if one can
afford it. The average upkeep for a given SS is roughly SS*10% more than 
the minimum.

Note that SS 0 is not included in this system since SS 0 are slaves and don't
pay for their own upkeep (also remember that slavery is forbidden in the
Imperium).


SS       Upkeep
     Minimum  Average
 1     150      175 
 2     200      250
 3     250      325 
 4     300      425 
 5     350      525 
 6     400      650
 7     450      775 
 8     500      900
 9     550     1050 
10     600     1200  

Above SS 10 upkeep is highly individualistic and difficult to generalize
about.

While travelling upkeep is +20% in rural areas, +50% in urban areas and
+100% in artificial environments (space stations, etc.)

Clothes

Clothes are usually accounted for in the basic living expenses, but if a 
character needs to acquire clothes in unusual circumstances (like as part 
of a disguise or to replace a ruined set) here are some prices:

Rags                   20
Rough/well used        40
Common/a little used   60
Good                  200
Fine                  600
Elegant               800
Extravagant          1000

Note: Prices for clothes (especially finery) can easily vary by from -20 to 
+50% depending on how many or how few frills are traditional in the local 
culture.





      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 00:34:16 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Jump troops

How about Drop Capsules equiped with one shot Grav compensators and
G-Tanks? It might be possible to make quite powerful compensators, if
they're only one-shot. This would allow for a very high-G deacceleration,
and thus a high entry velocity. This would mean less transit time, and less
low speed 'float time' in the atmosphere.

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 14:38:51 PDT
From: "Eamon 'Feathers' Watters" <E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Michael Collins (Way off topic!)

Hi,

Andy Long sent a message a few days ago recommending people go out and
hire the video 'Michael Collins'.

I know it's not on topic, but if you do - bring a lot of salt - this one needs more 
than a pinch, like most 'Official' Irish history, it's very one-sided. 

Eamon.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 09:02:08 -0500
From: Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com>
Subject: Re: FFS2 Beta | Small Arms test

Andrew Vallance wrote:
> 
> Here's three real world guns I reverse designed, none are out by more
> than 12%. The Barretta is just about perfect (with the exception of the
> magazine).

<snip lots of design sequence>

>    Feed = 15 round grip magazine
>       Maximum capacity = 140/9 = 15
>       Mass = (6 x 10.088 x (15 + 4))/1000 = 1.15kg [this figure I think is
> wrong]

	I believe that the actual divisor should be 10000, not 1000. The figure
in FF&S was .0006, which is 1/10000 of 6, not 1/1000. That gives you an
unloaded magazine mass of .115 kg, and a loaded mass of 0.2782 kg. These
figures are for the magazine only, of course.

>       Cost 1.15 x 10 = Cr 11
>    Evaluation
>       Length = 12.5 + 11.18 = 23.68cm (actual figure 21.7cm)
>       Mass unloaded = 0.25 + 0.625 + 0.1 = 0.975kg (actual figure 0.98kg)
>       Mass loaded = 0.975 + 1.15(?) + (15 x 0.01) = 2.275Kg
>       Price = 50 + 125 + 20 = Cr 195
>       Range = ((1 + 1.025) x 0.75) x 0.4 x 756.25^0.5 = 16.7m (short)
>       Damage = 756.25^0.5/10.5 = 2 (rounded down)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 16:08:19 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: RE:Sector Data

- -> Greetings,
- -> 
- -> Commander X here with an important question.
- -> 
- -> I understand that MM is going to deal with the Sector Data snafu.  Does this 
- -> mean that the group that was set up on this list to "adjust" the sectors is 
- -> no more?  Or are we now to help with correcting the data with MM?
I am not sure how we should go about it...
As Marc proposed it, we should mail him so he could send us the data.
I already have it. There are some new problems with the data and we 
are supposed to fix them, look them over.
Maybe we should create a new list for this purpose, so we can discuss 
the data in detail without wasting TML-bandwidth...
Ken? MPGN? Anybody?
 


Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 01:34:22 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Casualties

At 07:08 21/05/97 -0700, you wrote:
>
>
>On Tue, 20 May 1997, pierre-louis constantin wrote:
>
>> Hi there!
>
>Snip  
>
>> 	So what exactly would all that battlefield first aid be?  You
>> can't always have a low berth close by or whatnot.  What would high
>> TL first aid be?   Portable berths for 1 limb?  Just wondering.
>
>You know...I'll bet that battlefield first aid will be a lot like it is
>today...throw on a bunch of antibiotics, stuff enough bandages on to stop
>the bleeding, shoot 'em full of morphine and pass 'em along..._fast_...
>The real miracles take place in the field hospitals, where they patch them
>up enough so they'll stay alive (vs. not dying right away, which is what
>first aid does), and do so long enough to get shipped to a real hospital
>for rehab/reconstruction, etc.
>
>IIRC this is basically what the US did in Vietnam, and there were claims
>that if they lived long enough to get to the MASH, 90% of them lived.
>
>Now, of course, if a TL12 battlefield follows the trends of current
>warfare, particularly if energy or gauss weapons are used a lot, first aid
>might be turned into 'Hey..are you alive?'  Combat could be far deadlier,
>with few injuries, and lots of people scratched or dead, with little in
>between. 

I'm not sure that guass weapons and lasers will increase the lethality of
combat, as modern weapons are already pretty lethal. High energy weapons
OTOH, would be quite messy.

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 10:29:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brett Fishburne <bfish@atlantech.net>
Subject: Re: Free Traders, Corps and Turnaround Time

I think that you are selling the free traders short on the short haul
routes.  I think that the big companies might be able to dominate the short
haul, but only for folks that need high insurance on deliveries or something
like that.  The free trader offers personalized service and, I think, would
have an easier time filling a smaller hold than the big guys.  In addition,
the free trader would not need the warehousing required of the big guys as
he would work a group of samller firms looking for the personal touch.

I choose the US postal service over UPS and other shippers because I like my
postman.  He's the kind of guy who makes sure that letters which are
addressed wrong still make it to me.  This is the role that I see for a free
trader.  The chance to schmooze and take on cargo that is not quite on the
up-and-up every now and then.  While it may take a free trader a while to
get a route, once he's got it, he would be tough to move out with enormous
price wars.  Of course, that will work as Wal-Mart has proven...

Brett Fishburne

At 03:16 AM 5/25/96 -0700, Ian or Katts wrote:
>Traveller background seems to imply that the Megacorporations would
>dominate long-distance trade, leaving the short-haul stuff for Free
>Traders and simplar types.
>
>I think this is not consistent with the rules of Traveller, which in 
>fact give a comparitive advantage to Corporate types in short-haul
>trade (and thus force free traders onto the long-haul routes).
>
>The key is turnaround time. A corporation has a trade station on the
>planet that can purchase and stockpile cargos ahead of time. Once
>the corp's ship comes in, you can load up and go in a day, leading
>to about a total trip time of 9-11 days (1 day to jump point, 6-8
>days in jump, 1 day from jump point, 1 day refuelling and shifting 
>cargo). Given 350 trading days a year, this gives you about 35
>jumps a year (plus the traditional 2 weeks for maintainence).
>
>Free traders need, on average, three days to find a cargo. Therefore,
>their total trip time is 12-14 days - about 27 jumps a year. This
>means you make a *lot* less profit on short-haul cargo than the
>corporate types do.
>
>OTOH imagine a free trader operating along a main on a long-haul
>route between two planets 15 parsecs apart. It works on a cycle
>of jump point-gas giant/starport-refuel-jump point-jump, at
>9-11 days per jump. The "downtime" finding a cargo is still only
>three days, except it is over 150 trading days rather than 10.
>Thus you are a lot closer to the big boys in terms of efficiency.
>
>Of course, you will need to be able to wear the fact that your
>revenue comes in in bi-annaual lumps and you are going to need
>a cargo that is profitable to haul that far (probably luxury
>goods to or from a sector capital to a hi-pop world, or military
>goods from a world of the highest available technology).
>
>Anyway, I think long-haul cargo is a lot more "travellerish" than
>doing a glorified postal service between two or three neighbouring
>systems.
>
>Ian Whitchurch
>
>PS Remember, your freight is someone else's speculative cargo.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 23:57:36 -0700
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au>
Subject: Use of Jump Troops and non-use of EMP

I think one issue that has been missed with the effective use of
Jump Troops is the neccessity of minimizing collateral damage on
the planet. Whilst there may well be a military necessity to use
, say, EMP weapons to support an invasion, I can see a great deal 
of reluctance to do so, because of the collateral damage this
would do to the planet's economy.

The second issue with nuclear EMP weapons is their vulnerability
to nuclear dampers, which can presumably be used at some range.

The point about the vulnerability of lightly-equipped Jump Troops 
to armour was well made, however if space superiority is assumed,
the Jump Troops would be able to call down a large amount of 
ortillery fire, particularily ship-mounted conventional missiles
in an anti-armour role.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:48:41 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Living expenses (was: Equipment sheet)

At 03:09 pm 05/27/97 +0200, you wrote:
>This rule is both broken in itself (Think about it: the difference in cost
of 
>living between the two lowest levels of society is 100% while the difference 
>between two adjacent high levels is 10% or less; if that had been reversed
it 
>would make a lot more sense) and not compatible with the costs of food and 

	That's what you get for a linear progression... I agree, it doesn't make
sense.
>subsistence level is Cr450 per month. But average, ordinary living can be
had 
>for Cr600 per month (This is based on the assumption that roughly the same 
>amount of money is used on food, lodging, and basic necessities. Check your
>budget. Dosen't it fit fairly well?).

	Err ... no. Unless a Cr is worth significantly more than a US$.

>Back in 1779 one credit was worth about one US dollar. Today it is closer to 
>between 1.5 and 2 dollars.

	Err ... closer but still not. Even if I were renting instead of buying a
house, the rental market in this area is so high I'd be paying about the same.

	Minor nits aside, this looks like something useful, thank you! I've moved
it to my "Useful stuff to be read, understood and implemented in a
Traveller game, someday in the near future when I have time, around about
5700AD..." folder
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:59:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Hard SF rant

   Hi.

> Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 09:25:41 -0600
> From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
 
>>   "The drive itself is a highly specialized powerplant..."  This is the
>>   crux of my point.  If the drive itself outgenerates the "powerplant"
>>   by a factor of 1000, you have to wonder why you bother with a
>>   separate powerplant in the first place.  Just skim off one tenth of
>>   one percent of the drive output, and you have all the power you need.
 
> 	Again, you're mistaking the "equivalent power output" of a chemical
> rocket, which CAN'T be used effectively to run other systems, with the
> USEFUL power output of a true power plant. You can't just magically convert
> thrust into power. You can tap off it, yes, but that's not very efficient.

   Is it only a factor of 0.001 efficient?  You /can/ alter trust into
   power using the work equation W = F*d and a generator.  Otherwise,
   what you say is true, but the effects you point out are too small to
   account for the HUGE discrepancy.

> Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 00:47:06 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

> Except that the powerplant won't *let* you do this. Aside from minor
> amounts of "waste heat" which the design specificly turns back into hot
> exhaust out the nozzle, the only way to "tap" the power from the drive
> is to put something into the exhaust. And that will *severely* impact
> thrust. 

   Yes, but you can have a separate, smaller manuever drive that you can
   use without interfering with your main drive that will generate far
   more power for you than an equally sized, canonical, Trav power
   plant.  It's power to weight ratio will be on the order of 1000 times
   greater.

> If you want thrust, then you *can't* tap off power. If you want power,
> you can't generate thrust. That's the way rockets work.

   I think I understand what you are getting at, but these technical
   details can be overcome by using two rockets --- one for thrust, one
   for power.  The scale of the discrepancy is too big and too valuable
   to be hampered by these details.  The incentive for overcoming these
   difficulties is great enough that engineers will work hard to work
   around them.  

   You can imagine, for instance, strapping two small M-drives to a
   pinwheel on the nose of your ship, and using it to crank a generator. 
   Heavy? Sure! But it still has a higher power to weight ratio than a
   cononical power plant.  This idea is just of the top of my head. 
   Imagine what a real engineer might come up with given such an
   incentive to do so.

> Try looking at it this way: A big gun generates a lot of energy. But
> you can't realistically expect to *tap* the power. Doing so is both
> difficult, and defeats the whole *purpose* of having the gun. Namely,
> producing high speed projectiles.

   Imagine sticking some guns on a pinwheel attached to a generator.
   This will make power.  Sure, it will defeat the purpose of the guns,
   but if you could use this to generate power 1000 times more efficiently
   than a standard generator, wouldn't you do it, even if it did "waste"
   a couple of guns?  In real life, of course, such a generator would be
   ridiculously inefficient, so no one will ever build one, but in Trav,
   an M-drive pinwheel would be better than any power plant otherwise
   available.  In a hard-SF universe, they would be used all the time,
   unless something even better came along, but in canon, there is
   nothing better.

> I ran into this same misconception over on rec.arts.sf.science a couple
> of months back. Efficient reaction drives make *lousy* power plants
> unless *dedicated* to being power plants. 

   So dedicate one.  It will be better than anything available in
   Starships, HG, Striker, or FFS.

> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 20:50:24 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>

> Test case (as I find your views intriguing):  Is the
> Niven/Pournelle/Alderson drive, used in the N/P future history, 'hard'
> enough for your definition, despite being an FTL system?

   I'm not really familiar with this drive.  I actually  don't read much
   SF, so it wouldn't be surprising if my definition was not very
   useful for literary classification.

> I do agree that it's best to clearly point out what's current knowledge,
> what's extrapolation, and what's broken for playability purposes.

   That's my main point.

> Every time I think about this I edge closer to doing my Doc Smith writeup.
> So far, astonishingly enough, it doesn't break canon at all seriously, and
> it brings drive power levels back down to reasonable levels.  It does
> introduce one odd effect involving sudden starts and stops by turning the
> Bergenholm on and off, and I'm worried my momentum/energy balance check
> will torpedo it.  Stay tuned...

   Let me know what you come up with.  I've wasted enough effort on this
   "problem" (not much of a problem, really).  I'd appreciate reading
   about someone else's efforts! 8^)

> The 800 sec figure is for theoretically perfect, 100% efficient LOX/H2
> burning; the figures for actual rockets appear to run in the range 300-400
> sec.  So in this case, *I* am the physicist, and *you* are the engineer. :)
 
   Oooh!  Does this mean I'll be able to find a job! ;^)

> Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:32:19 +0100
> From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)

> My number (Isp) for the shuttle is 450 s but it may be wrong.

   Thanks for the input, but the point is probably moot since my number
   is probably wrong too.  I was able to verify my surmises by looking
   at FAQ at sci.space that Leonard pointed out to me that relates Isp
   to an equation that a physicist can understand.  Thanks Leonard!

   -Rob

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1371
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, May 27 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1372



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Jump troops
Re: Companions of the Road?
Re: Companions of the Road?
smart guns
Re: [Long]Who we are, T4, adios
Re: Pocket Empires (First Impression)
RE: Infiltration of jump troopers
Re: Fans and Players
Re: Money...That's What I Want!
Re: Jump Troops
Re: Red Shores at Night
Re: First Survey 'Errata' and IG Pricing Policy
Red Zones
Re: Red Shores at Night
Re: Fans and Players
Re: Jump troops
Re: Hard SF rant
Re: Casulaties
RE:Sector Data
Traveller Chat
Traveller Chat
Cross-platform pseudocompatibility
Re: Jump troop tactics (longish)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 18:10:02 +0200
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Re: Jump troops

R. Boleyn wrote:
>How about Drop Capsules equiped with one shot Grav compensators and
>G-Tanks? It might be possible to make quite powerful compensators, if
>they're only one-shot. This would allow for a very high-G deacceleration,
>and thus a high entry velocity. This would mean less transit time, and less
>low speed 'float time' in the atmosphere.

May be too expensive!


- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr 
   Mailto:marben@worldnet.net (Week-end only!)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 12:04:05 -0400
From: James Garriss <jpg@langley.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Companions of the Road?

At 11:49 AM 5/26/97 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 97-05-25 16:35:35 EDT, you write:

>>  According to Shadis Magazine, Marc Miller has signed a contract with
>>  Wisconsin based Corsair Publishing for a new *Fantasy* RPG titled
>>  _Companions of the Road_ which should be out in August.
>>  
>>  Does anybody knows more about this?

>I am working on this game with Corsair Publishing. What do you want to know?

Would "everything about it" be too narrow of a focus?  :-)

 James Garriss           Information Systems Engineer, MITRE
 jgarriss@mitre.org           http://www.cs.odu.edu/~garriss

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 17:53:40
From: Paolo Marino <marino@inrete.it>
Subject: Re: Companions of the Road?

In a message dated 26 May 1997 11:49:59 -0400 (EDT)
CardSharks@aol.com (Marc Miller) wrote:

>>
>>  According to Shadis Magazine, Marc Miller has signed a contract with
>>  Wisconsin based Corsair Publishing for a new *Fantasy* RPG titled
>>  _Companions of the Road_ which should be out in August.
>>
>>  Does anybody knows more about this?
>>
>
>I am working on this game with Corsair Publishing. What do you want to know?
>

Well, anything you care to tell us about this. I'm a little curious about
this project of yours, and even if could be considered Off-Topic, I thing
that many others would not mind a little description of the game (world,
rules and so on).

TIA,




__  Paolo Marino  __          |Inrete Games Page: www.inrete.it/games/gms.html
 mc4799@mclink.it (Preferred)  | marino@inrete.it (Best for MIME/BinHex)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 13:10:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dedly@aol.com
Subject: smart guns

<Exit Lurkspace>

I was reading through Wired and stumbled across a snippet article on "smart
guns." Apparently Colt is working on a way to require police guns to be armed
only via a transponder (worn as a ring on the trigger finger) which will need
to be in close proximity to the weapon in order to work. Colt is conducting
rigorous testing and doesn't forsee the product being available until after
2000. Of course in Trav, we don't have to wait that long. =)

I forsee this technology being made available in the form of a nanochip
transponder surgically implanted into the police officer's hand. It's use
would be available on TL A or B+ worlds. Whether or not it would be used
would depend upon the population and law level. Certainly, high pop worlds
with above average law levels would not hesitate to make sure that guns were
not usable at all by the local pop.

I leave further creative sparks on this matter to you. =)

<Enter Lurkspace>
\_/
DED

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 10:22:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Douglas <douglas@*teleport.com>
Subject: Re: [Long]Who we are, T4, adios

On Tue, 20 May 1997, Chatham Ewing wrote:

[snip]

> Lately, this list hasn't been as fun to read as it once was. I don't like
> foul language meanly used, and I have no taste for gratuitous name calling.
> I see and experience enough of that every day in every way in New York City.  
> 
> I wish you all well and respect the terrific creativity here, but I will
> not be continuing on this list. For me and what I'd like to accomplish with
> my hobby, the benefits of the list's creativity have been far outweighed by
> the recent and ever more voluminous cycles of vituperative discourse. 
>      

Regretfully, we bid farewell to Chad.  I mean this sincerely, the points
he raises are the exact ones which have caused me to encourage my players
_not_ to subscribe to this list.  I copy those messages that I think
encourage their creativity and interest in the game, and do not mention
(except in passing, and as humor) the ones that rip at the game, the
gamers, or traveller as a whole.

I have often wondered if I would be so aware of, or concerned with, the
shortcomings of T4 if I had not subscribed to this list.  And if it makes
me wonder, when I've played Traveller for 15 years, how does the tone of
the list affect the new players?  I've read many contributers railings on
how IG was causing the downfall of Traveller, but based on what Chad has
to say...how much of the problem is the TML contributing?

And how many players, unlike Chad, just quietly wander away in the dark?

- --------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
                                              -Merlin

douglas@teleport.com
http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas\

MCSE: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation, 
      Exchange Server, Basic Networking, TCP/IP
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 10:46:39 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Pocket Empires (First Impression)

At 06:56 PM 5/26/97 -0500, Joe Walsh wrote:
>Actually, PE is set up for play as a game.  It's certainly usable to 
>create background - and, in fact, I think that's one suggested use in the 
>book - but the primary thrust was to create something for people to play 
>on a grand scale.  And yes, it is particularly well suited to PBM or 
>PBEM. :)

I am looking forward to fiddling with it.  I will finally be able to answer
the dread questions of how much it costs to go up a tech level, and how
many ships are in the sky on a given world.

Hopefully, I will have time to play with it soon.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:03:22 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: RE: Infiltration of jump troopers

At 11:25 PM 5/27/97 +1200, you wrote:
>Should we use the term "Drop pods".  Jump pods is just too darn
>confusing!

I changed the designation to Rapid Interface a few years back... sounds
more military.  In the popular lexicon, "Jump Trooper" brings to mind the
same sort of iron-jawed Lee Marvin-ish hero that "Green Beret" evokes for
Americans.

This also means that every drop pod has RIP stenciled in big letters on the
side...
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
|  Creative Planetologist, THUDDer, 20 year vet  |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
|  "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|  about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|  Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|   -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin"  |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 09:50:44 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Fans and Players

At 02:55 PM 5/24/97 -0500, Joe Walsh wrote:
...
>So, who here is actually playing Traveller - any incarnation, with any 
>home rules; as long as you think of it as Traveller, it qualifies - right 
>now?  Who is involved in a game of Traveller, whether meeting daily, 
>weekly, or monthly?

We have been playing an M0 game for the last couple of months.  Before
that, we were in a RuneQuest game for a year and change, and before that,
we had a Traveller game for something like 18-20 months.  My group is down
to two players and myself, but we will likely try to find a couple more
people in the Irvine/Lake Forest, CA area eventually.

As an interesting note, one of them has been gaming with me since 85 or so.
 Kind of fun.

Oh, I have not yet had a chance to look at the PE economic rules yet.  Does
anyone have them implemented in software?  I am thinking of running them
through a few Monte Carlos to see if they can produce the Imperium, at
least on a small scale.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 10:46:09 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Money...That's What I Want!

At 05:42 PM 5/26/97 -0400, FKiesche@concentric.net wrote:
>Actually, anybody have a rough approximation of how much a Imperial 
>Credit (Classic Traveller era, preferred) would be worth in terms of US 
>Dollars?

From what I have been seeing in the costs of various goods, cost of food
and lodging, and military pensions, a Traveller credit is about $3 (US,
1995), or so.

I have been using the rule of thumb that a TL12 Sylean SS7 person is
somewhere near 10KCr.  Since it looks like we are going to use "local
credits", with the definition of a credit being the same, but the amount of
Sylean goods it will buy being different, I am going to rule that military
pensions are paid in Sylean TL12 credits, which is why people sign up for
enlisted jobs from frontier worlds.

I have heard numbers from $10 to $1, though.  You might want to check out a
post I sent out some months ago that tried to decide how much each SS used,
normalized to the average.  Depending on your assumptions, and what chunk
of history you use, there is not much more than an order of magnitude or
two spread in the social standing scale.

Scott

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 10:51:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Troops

> Date: Mon, 26 May 97 23:21:33 -0500
> From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
> 
> On 05/26/97 at 06:25 PM,  Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net> said:
> 
> > > Nearing the surface the "Trooper" would be ejected from
> > > the capsule at 40, 50, 60 g's and ride the rest of the way down on a
> > > final parachute or perhaps a grav belt.
> 
> > Yummmmm...that's my favorite recipe for "Mashed Jump-Trooper in the
> > Shell." :)
> 
> I don't know Craig, don't ejection seats normally opearte at over 40g's? 
> You couldn't give 'em more than a second or two, though.

I don't know -- at 40g a typical 220 lb (100 kg) trooper will weigh 8,800
lbs (40,000 N, 4,000 kg at 1g equivalent).  I can't imagine even a second
or two of this not snapping and squashing things.  But in any case, if you
can accomplish the ejection in a two seconds at 40g, just to it in twenty
seconds at 4g instead; less trooper breakage that way.

> The reason I brought up using the planet's orbital velocity, was because
> it looked like everybody was assuming the ship would decellerate into an
> orbit and then launch the capsules at the planet.  It seemed more
> reasonable for the ship to fly past and launch the capsules back along
> the path of the planet's orbit..ie decelerating the capsules.

This is the model everyone's been using, actually, though nobody has said
so explicitly to my knowledge.  You fire the capsules 'backward' into a
Hohmann transfer orbit (more or less) from your orbital altitude to the
surface.  The delta-v you need to give the capsule is the ship's orbital
velocity minus the H transfer velocity.  The point people are making is
that if the launching ship is in anything much faster than a circular
orbit, the launch tube length or acceleration required for the capsules
gets impractically high.

> Don't expect to be doing this in Akus, Craig ;->

I assure you, the only way I plan on travelling groundside from orbit is
on a shuttle, preferably one with beverage service en route. :)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 14:11:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Red Shores at Night

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> sez,

Re: Red Zones in the Marches

>For the Lunion Subsector (these are from my own campaign, be warned.)
>Shirene (Amber)
>Many animals on this world carry Turner's Syndrome, a rabies-like
>infection.  There is no cure, and most sufferers are put to death before
>the final stages of the disease, which features murderous rages and other
>psychotic behavoir.

I suppose in the far future there might be something else called Turner's
Syndrome, but I feel compelled to point out that, in the Real World(tm),
there's already a genetic disorder known as Turner's Syndrome. Instead of
having XY or XX chromosomes, people with Turner's are "X0" - they're born
with only an X, or (if I'm not mistaken) with an X and a tiny, fragmentary
Y. They develop as females, but are sterile, lacking ovaries, and they do
not experience puberty without hormone injections. They may also have other
abnormalities, such as a webbed neck, fingers or toes, and epicanthic
folds. They also seem to display an unusual capacity to deal with stress
and adversity.

Turner's is just one of the many ways the human body can become confused
about what sex it's supposed to be. Other syndromes include Klinefelter's
(XXY), Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (XY females), XXX chromosomes
(sometimes more than three!), XXY (often resulting in some form of Down's
Syndrome), XYY and other combinations.(All this data courtesy _Sex Errors
of the Body_ (1968), Money.)

The convicts in the (truly awful) movie _Aliens 3_ were XYY 'supermales'
who had been put on the prison colony because of their overly aggressive
tendencies. Prison populations do indeed have a far higher percentage of
XYY men than the general population.

GMG


- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"The courts may not work anymore, but so long as everyone
      is videotaping everyone else, we'll be okay."
                    -- Marge Simpson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 97 20:00 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: First Survey 'Errata' and IG Pricing Policy

In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970515120639.00784cdc@mailgate.ftech.net>

<<  However, I may use that time to design some alternative _usable_ starmaps
that my players can adventure in, somewheres that have low government level
planets with high law levels, for example, democracy (2) with strict gun
control (7 or 8 upwards); apparently impossible in the T4 setting. >>

Well, it was written by Americans...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 97 15:05:13 -0400
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: Red Zones

>Anybody have a list or narrative telling why various Red Zones in the 
>Spinward Marches are red? I know that some of them (Shionthy, Victoria, 
>Andor, Candory) are listed with Imperium-related reasons. I also know 
>that one Sword World Red Zone is a SW navy bombing area. But how about 
>the others?


I wrote up several RICE papers on Red Zone worlds in Spinward Marches.
They are located on my web page. Address is below.  The worlds are
Hexos (Red Zoned after 1120 something), Gerome, and Lewis. (I had to
write it up once I saw the name).  They are all written from a 1200
viewpoint, but contain information for running at 1120. 

Lewis Roberts
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Q:Why does an elephant have a trunk?
A:So that it has someplace to hide when it sees a mouse.        
 
lewis@chara.gsu.edu
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 12:18:03 -0700
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Red Shores at Night

Glenn Grant wrote:

[snip]

>Turner's is just one of the many ways the human body can become confused
>about what sex it's supposed to be. Other syndromes include Klinefelter's
>(XXY), Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (XY females), XXX chromosomes
>(sometimes more than three!), XXY (often resulting in some form of Down's
>Syndrome), XYY and other combinations.(All this data courtesy _Sex Errors
>of the Body_ (1968), Money.)

FTR, there's plenty of conditions not involving scrambling of the 23rd
chromosome, which can have similar sorts of effects -- congenital adrenal
hyperplasia, for example.  And, also FTR, Money is widely loathed by many
of his former research subjects and patients; he might be good on the
biology side, but his approach to treatment of interssexual infants has
been pretty damaging.  IMHO.


Kenji
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 14:39:06 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Fans and Players

On Tue, 27 May 1997, Scott Ellsworth wrote:

> Oh, I have not yet had a chance to look at the PE economic rules yet.  Does
> anyone have them implemented in software?  I am thinking of running them

I have a spreadsheet that I used during development, but it's not 
anything I'd feel comfortable sharing, as it's something only its 
designer could love. <G>  It's very confusingly laid out, since I had to 
keep modifying it as the rules changed during development.

Perhaps, though, one of the folks who are great at such things will 
develop a nice one and put it out there for all to use...


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh  |  Game Designer for Marc Miller's Traveller
_________________|  Atari 1200XL and Apple IIGS User and Programmer

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 13:38:52 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Jump troops

At 06:10 pm 05/27/97 +0200, you wrote:
>R. Boleyn wrote:
>>How about Drop Capsules equiped with one shot Grav compensators and
>>G-Tanks? It might be possible to make quite powerful compensators, if
>>they're only one-shot. This would allow for a very high-G deacceleration,
>>and thus a high entry velocity. This would mean less transit time, and less
>>low speed 'float time' in the atmosphere.
>
>May be too expensive!

	The only thing more expensive in combat than the best gear is the
second-best gear ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 13:38:24 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Hard SF rant

At 11:59 am 05/27/97 -0400, you wrote:
>   Hi.
>
>> Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 09:25:41 -0600
>> From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
> 
>>>   "The drive itself is a highly specialized powerplant..."  This is the
>>>   crux of my point.  If the drive itself outgenerates the "powerplant"
>>>   by a factor of 1000, you have to wonder why you bother with a
>>>   separate powerplant in the first place.  Just skim off one tenth of
>>>   one percent of the drive output, and you have all the power you need.
> 
>> 	Again, you're mistaking the "equivalent power output" of a chemical
>> rocket, which CAN'T be used effectively to run other systems, with the
>> USEFUL power output of a true power plant. You can't just magically convert
>> thrust into power. You can tap off it, yes, but that's not very efficient.
>
>   Is it only a factor of 0.001 efficient?  You /can/ alter trust into
>   power using the work equation W = F*d and a generator.  Otherwise,
>   what you say is true, but the effects you point out are too small to
>   account for the HUGE discrepancy.

	The generator efficiency is fairly low _if_ you want to get any thrust out
of the rocket. If generator efficiencies were so high, we'd be using rocket
generators now ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:32:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: pierre-louis constantin <Pierre-Louis.Constantin@DMI.USherb.CA>
Subject: Re: Casulaties

 
	On this topic, almost everybody seems to say something along
the lines of "stabilize the body till it's shipped to the field
hospital".  But this assumes that the sole use of first aid is to
keep the soldier alive till aid comes - how about a combat philosophy
that says "keep the soldier FIGHTING till you can't find any bits
left of him"?  I'm thinking of technologies like, say, battle dresses
that pinches off the blood supply to parts of the body that are
hemorraging/badly damaged, computer-monitored drug injections,
servomechanical takeover of unconscious men, etc etc? 
 
	What kind of technologies could we expect and how would it
affect combat attrition rates?  I know it wouldn't be very humane,
but the Imperium is vast. :)  
 
	Sorry if I just ask questions and never provide answers. ;)
 
	Would it be possible to design an 'Extremely Light Emergency
Berth' that you can attach directly to combat armor and battle
dresses, using most of the armor's life support system?  I would
probably simplify battlefield first aid if you had one field medic in
light battledress just flit about the battlefield with a grav sled,
pick up fallen comrades, plugs them into the sled and carry them off.
Or if the sled would be too easy/big a target, just have the medic
carry 2 kg ELEB cubes and plug one into each damaged battle dress.
 
	I'll try to come up with a design and post it later this week
if anyone's interested. :)


- -- 
Pierre-Louis Constantin, ift. a. 	"He whose name was writ in E-mail."
(: "I hate fanatics with a passion; all extremists should be shot." :)
	    How's my surfing? http://www.dmi.usherb.ca/~constanp/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 15:07:33 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: RE:Sector Data

> 
> Greetings,
> 
> Commander X here with an important question.
> 
> I understand that MM is going to deal with the Sector Data snafu.  Does this 
> mean that the group that was set up on this list to "adjust" the sectors is 
> no more?  Or are we now to help with correcting the data with MM?


It looks like he has put it out to the list to de-bug.  I haven't 
heard anything personnally, and I've sent two e-mails to IG & Co 
about the project.

What was that Jeff Zeitlin said recently about IG reponse?

Kenneth.
> 
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 14:12:31 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@pop.goodnet.com>
Subject: Traveller Chat

Greetings!

A good friend of mine recently posed the questions "What makes it 
Traveller? The rules? The setting? What can you alter or even discard 
and still be playing Traveller?". The ensuing conversation was 
intriguing enough, that I have since asked others and now pose it as 
the topic of this week's Traveller Chat.

We'll be meeting on IG's server, www.imperiumgames.com, port 6665 or 
6666 at 10pm Eastern (9pm Central, 7pm Pacific) on Thursday, May 29, 
1997.

As always, if you have any questions or need help getting online with 
us, please email me.

Suz


Suzette C. Dollar
#traveller Channel Manager (Undernet/Myst)
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 14:12:04 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@pop.goodnet.com>
Subject: Traveller Chat

Greetings!

A good friend of mine recently posed the questions "What makes it 
Traveller? The rules? The setting? What can you alter or even discard 
and still be playing Traveller?". The ensuing conversation was 
intriguing enough, that I have since asked others and now pose it as 
the topic of this week's Traveller Chat.

We'll be meeting on IG's server, www.imperiumgames.com, port 6665 or 
6666 at 10pm Eastern (9pm Central, 7pm Pacific) on Thursday, May 29, 
1997.

As always, if you have any questions or need help getting online with 
us, please email me.

Suz


Suzette C. Dollar
#traveller Channel Manager (Undernet/Myst)
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 97 17:22:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Cross-platform pseudocompatibility

  Rob Prior and a couple of other people have written Hypercard
  stacks for various Traveller-related purposes.  There is one
  minor problem with Hypercard stacks: people with Wintel
  systems can't do squat with them.

  (Yes, I know, you Mac people face the same problem with the
  wide range of DosWin software out there, but you at least have
  the SoftWindows/SoftPC kludge that has a chance of working.
  We Wintel folks don't have an equivalent option - and don't
  tell us to buy Macs; we've made significant investment, and
  Macs still cost more than comparable Wintel boxen.  And
  that's not the issue here!)

  I think I have a shot at being able to do something about that
  particular problem, _if_ the stackwriters will offer a small
  amount of coperation in exchange.

  A number of years ago, a company called Brightbill-Roberts
  created a Hypercard-like product for character-mode DOS called
  "HyperPAD".  It was distributed as shareware.  Its current
  legal status is uncertain; the company seems to no longer be
  in existance, and I have been unable to find out who owns the
  rights to it.  I've been assuming that the shareware version
  (I have both shareware and registered - the difference seems
  to be printed documentation) is still distributable, with the
  assumption that if someone turns up with the rights later on,
  payment would be appropriate.  That's also beside the point.

  The point is: If the stackwriters can give me enough
  information about their stacks, I can write a functionally
  equivalent PAD using HyperPAD, and make it available to the
  Wintel users.  Enough information is defined as the name and
  type of all controls on each card, plus a printout of each
  script associated with the stack, cards, and controls, plus a
  description of the actions of any default event handlers that
  can/should be assumed to exist in the HyperCard environment.
  HyperPAD doesn't support graphics; clickable graphics that
  aren't the equivalent of imagemaps would have to become
  buttons instead; such graphics should be noted.  If there are
  imagemap equivalents, we'll have to talk, and deal with them
  on a case-by-case basis.  I'm willing to take a stab at it if
  the stackwriters are willing to assist as I've outlined.

  Comments?  Questions?  Criticisms?  Advice?  Flames (send
  these to /dev/null, please)?  Ideas?

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  A mime dies a quiet death...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 17:44:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brett Fishburne <bfish@atlantech.net>
Subject: Re: Jump troop tactics (longish)

At 09:17 PM 5/26/97 -0700, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>Pick-up is the riskiest element, since a large vessel has to land and hold
>still long enough for the Marines to board.  Once aboard, the recovery
>vessel initiates the "getting the hell out of here" maneuver, and
>rendezvous with the transport, which should already be leaving orbit.
>
>Total time on the ground: less than one hour.

Why not drop some drone recovery ships which land at preset locations and
preset times?  The drones could be dropped from a carrier and could handle
3-4 marines with some heavy arms.  The signature would be small and the ship
would be highly maneuverable so it could easily evade enemy fire until
touchdown.  The drone could touch at several drop sites before giving up and
going back to the mother ship.  No problem with the big ship...

Brett Fishburne

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1372
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, May 27 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1373



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Relativistic m-drives: ERRATA
Re: Jump troops
Re: Meson Radiation
Re: Cross-platform pseudocompatibility
Re: Cross-platform pseudocompatibility
Re: Living expenses (was: Equipment sheet)
Stargates [long]
Re: MM's Sector Data
Re: Meson Radiation
Re: Red Shores at Night
Re: Jump troop tactics (longish)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:32:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Relativistic m-drives: ERRATA

   Hi.

   Last week Leonard Ericson pointed me to a FAQ on sci.space where I
   could check on the relativistic acceleration formulae I posted here a
   couple of weeks ago.  I did the checking, and I got some good news
   and some bad news.


   The good news.  The two equations for relativistic travel I had
   derived are consistent with those published for the relativistic
   rocket.  Namely,

   D = (c^2/A) * (  sqrt(4+(A*T/c)^2) - 2  )
   T = (c/A) * sqrt( (A*D/c^2)*(A*D/c^2 + 4) )

   are right (according to two independent checks).  These equations
   relate the time to distance in the planetary frame assuming constant
   acceleration as experienced by the ship's crew.


   The bad news.  The two equations which I had taken from a statement I
   read in a book on relativity for beginners do not agree with those
   posted on the FAQ.  Namely

   D = (1/4) * A * t^2
   t = sqrt(4*D/A)

   are wrong (or at least inconsistant with the FAQ).  These equations
   relate the time as experienced by the ship's crew to the distance in
   the planetary frame.  So I tried deriving these formulae from first
   principles to see who was right, the book or the FAQ.  I agree with
   the FAQ.  I apologise for posting the book's results without checking
   them first.

   	*	*	*	*	*	*

   ERRATA:  The corrected formulae for relativistic acceleration.
   
   D = (c^2/A) * [  sqrt(4+(A*T/c)^2) - 2  ]
   T = (c/A) * sqrt( (A*D/c^2)*(A*D/c^2 + 4) )

   D = 2*c^2/A * [ cosh(A*t/(2*c)) - 1 ]
   t = 2*c/A * arccosh( 1 + A * D / (2*c^2) )

   where
   D = distance in meters
   A = acceleration in m/s^2, as experienced by the starship's crew
   		(1G = 10 m/s^2,  2G = 20 m/s^2,  etc.)
   t = dialated time as experienced by the starship's crew, in seconds
   T = undialated time as experienced by the planetary populations, in
   		seconds
   c = speed of light: 300,000,000 meters per second


   	*	*	*	*	*	*

   The good news (for high speed travellers).   The new formulae let you
   travel from place to place alot more quickly than the old ones do!
   Here are a few charts to make the point.  Along the top of each chart
   is the ship's acceleration rating.   Along the left side is the
   distance traveled in parsecs.  The body of the chart shows the time
   in years of the flight.

   Chart 1:  The time experienced by the ship's crew, in years.

           A=      1G      2G      3G      4G      5G      6G
      D=
      0.1 parsec   1.12    0.78    0.63    0.54    0.48    0.43
      0.5 pc       2.39    1.61    1.26    1.06    0.92    0.81
      1 pc         3.22    2.11    1.63    1.35    1.15    1.02
      2 pc         4.23    2.69    2.03    1.66    1.41    1.23
      3 pc         4.89    3.05    2.28    1.85    1.56    1.36
      4 pc         5.38    3.32    2.47    1.99    1.68    1.46
      5 pc         5.77    3.53    2.61    2.09    1.76    1.53
      6 pc         6.10    3.70    2.72    2.18    1.83    1.59
      10 pc        7.05    4.19    3.06    2.43    2.04    1.76
      40           9.73    5.55    3.97    3.12    2.59    2.22
      80           11.11   6.24    4.43    3.47    2.86    2.45
      120          11.91   6.65    4.70    3.67    3.02    2.58
      160          12.48   6.93    4.89    3.81    3.14    2.68
      200          12.93   7.16    5.04    3.92    3.23    2.75
      300          13.74   7.56    5.31    4.13    3.39    2.89
      500          14.76   8.07    5.65    4.38    3.59    3.06
      1000         16.14   8.76    6.11    4.73    3.87    3.29
      10000        20.75   11.07   7.65    5.88    4.79    4.06
      100000       25.35   13.37   9.18    7.03    5.71    4.82
      1E+06        29.96   15.67   10.72   8.18    6.64    5.59
      1E+07        34.56   17.97   12.25   9.33    7.56    6.36
      1E+08        39.17   20.28   13.79   10.49   8.48    7.13
      1E+09        43.77   22.58   15.32   11.64   9.40    7.89
      1E+10        48.38   24.88   16.86   12.79   10.32   8.66
      1E+11        52.98   27.18   18.39   13.94   11.24   9.43
      1E+12        57.59   29.49   19.93   15.09   12.16   10.20

   Chart 2:  The time as seen by the stationary star systems, in years

           A=      1G      2G      3G      4G      5G      6G
      D=
      0.1 parsec   1.18    0.86    0.73    0.65    0.60    0.56
      0.5 pc       2.99    2.40    2.17    2.04    1.96    1.90
      1 pc         4.80    4.08    3.81    3.67    3.58    3.52
      2 pc         8.16    7.33    7.04    6.88    6.79    6.73
      3 pc         11.4    10.6    10.2    10.1    10.0    9.9
      4 pc         14.7    13.8    13.5    13.3    13.2    13.1
      5 pc         17.9    17.0    16.7    16.5    16.4    16.3
      6 pc         21.1    20.2    19.9    19.7    19.6    19.5
      10 pc        33.9    33.0    32.7    32.5    32.4    32.3
      40           130     129     129     128     128     128
      80           258     257     257     256     256     256
      120          386     385     385     384     384     384
      160          514     513     513     512     512     512
      200          642     641     641     640     640     640
      300          962     961     961     960     960     960
      500          1.6E+03 1.6E+03 1.6E+03 1.6E+03 1.6E+03 1.6E+03
      1000         3.2E+03 3.2E+03 3.2E+03 3.2E+03 3.2E+03 3.2E+03
      10000        3.2E+04 3.2E+04 3.2E+04 3.2E+04 3.2E+04 3.2E+04
      100000       3.2E+05 3.2E+05 3.2E+05 3.2E+05 3.2E+05 3.2E+05
      1E+06        3.2E+06 3.2E+06 3.2E+06 3.2E+06 3.2E+06 3.2E+06
      1E+07        3.2E+07 3.2E+07 3.2E+07 3.2E+07 3.2E+07 3.2E+07
      1E+08        3.2E+08 3.2E+08 3.2E+08 3.2E+08 3.2E+08 3.2E+08
      1E+09        3.2E+09 3.2E+09 3.2E+09 3.2E+09 3.2E+09 3.2E+09

   I hope this helps.  Sorry about the previous screw-up.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 11:02:33 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Jump troops

On Tue, 27 May 1997, David J. Golden wrote:

> At 06:10 pm 05/27/97 +0200, you wrote:
> >R. Boleyn wrote:
> >>How about Drop Capsules equiped with one shot Grav compensators and
> >>G-Tanks? It might be possible to make quite powerful compensators, if
> >>they're only one-shot. This would allow for a very high-G deacceleration,
> >>and thus a high entry velocity. This would mean less transit time, and less
> >>low speed 'float time' in the atmosphere.
> >
> >May be too expensive!
> 
> 	The only thing more expensive in combat than the best gear is the
> second-best gear ...

Exactly.  The expense of losing well trained reusable elite forces as
opposed to equiping them with the best is a poultry sum.


SaHua,

Michael

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


To believe something is to believe that it is true; therefore a reasonable
person belives each of his beliefs to be true; yet experience has taught him to
expect that some of his beliefs, he knows not which, will turn out to be false.
A resonable person belives, in short, that each of his beliefs is true and that
some of them are false.  I, for one, had expected better of reasonable persons.
W.V. Quine Quiddities.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 20:08:00 -0400
From: Hugh Johnson <ratling@csrlink.net>
Subject: Re: Meson Radiation

>Then there's nothing to worry about as the meson gun doesn't make
>things radioactive. The only radiation is *as* it goes off. 
>
>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>
>

	My mistake then.  I was under the assumption that when exposed to
radiation parts of the starship's hull and internal components would absorb
a certain amount of the radiation causing them to become radioactive.  I
guess I was thinking more along the lines of radiation sickness.  Sorry for
misunderstanding.

Hugh Johnson    mailto:ratling@csrlink.net   <:8}}}---

"Anything that happens, happens.  Anything that, in happening, causes
something else to happen, causes something else to happen.  Anything that,
in happening, causes itself to happen again, happens again.  It doesn't
necessarily do it in chronological order, though."      -- Douglas Adams,
Mostly Harmless

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 1997 00:05:49 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Cross-platform pseudocompatibility

Leaving aside the Mac/PC debate...

 
> I think I have a shot at being able to do something about that
>  particular problem, _if_ the stackwriters will offer a small
>  amount of coperation in exchange.
[snip]
>  ... Enough information is defined as the name and
>  type of all controls on each card, plus a printout of each
>  script associated with the stack, cards, and controls, plus a
>  description of the actions of any default event handlers that
>  can/should be assumed to exist in the HyperCard environment.
>  HyperPAD doesn't support graphics; clickable graphics that
>  aren't the equivalent of imagemaps would have to become
>  buttons instead; such graphics should be noted.  If there are
>  imagemap equivalents, we'll have to talk, and deal with them
>  on a case-by-case basis.  I'm willing to take a stab at it if
>  the stackwriters are willing to assist as I've outlined.

Uh, SMALL??  You call printing out every script for several hundred objects,
plus a description of HyperCard small?  MegaCharacter, for example, has
several hundred cards (which I presume you'd need copies of), several hundred
scripts, and also uses the HyperCard event hierarchy to advantage.  The
complete stack is 2+ megs, most of it being data or scripts.  (After all, it
generates every published race - plus others, every published CT/MT character
type - plus others, names characters in every published language - plus
others, physical descriptions, personalities, and motivations...)

Honestly, and sarcasm aside, you'd be better off writing one from scratch. 
Much easier than trying to 'port my HyperCard stacks, anyway.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 97 19:15:24 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Cross-platform pseudocompatibility

On 05/27/97 at 05:22 PM,  jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN) said:

> I'm willing to take a stab at it if
> the stackwriters are willing to assist as I've outlined.

>   Comments? 

Comment...Bless you Jeff! ;->  

Now, if we could start moving all the C and C++ to Java we'd have some
*real* cross-platform compatibility.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 17:19:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Living expenses (was: Equipment sheet)

Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote:

Kenneth Bearden writes:

>>I had responded to this question a while back suggesting that 
>>incidental expenses be taken from a character using the MT rule 
>>(Cr250 x SS per month;  MTPM page 30).

>This rule is both broken in itself (Think about it: the difference in 
>cost of living between the two lowest levels of society is 100% while the 
>difference between two adjacent high levels is 10% or less; if that had 
>been reversed it would make a lot more sense) and not compatible with 
>the costs of food and lodging given in CT (and T4). Starvation level 
>is Cr150 per month and subsistence level is Cr450 per month. But average, 
>ordinary living can be had for Cr600 per month (This is based on the 
>assumption that roughly the same amount of money is used on food, 
>lodging, and basic necessities. 

>Check your budget. Dosen't it fit fairly well?). So an average citizen 
>(SL 7) should use Cr600 for food, lodging and basic necessities and 
>Cr1150 for luxuries?  1/3 of dispoosable income for basics and 2/3rds for 
>luxuries? Not in Denmark, anyway and I doubt it is the case in the US either. 

Good post.  I like your system.  I'll also offer up a simpler system of my
own for folks who don't like tables: 

Instead of 250 x SS Cr/month, how about setting living expenses at 
40 x SS^2 Cr/month.  here I'm assuming 1 Cr roughly equals 1 $. 

SS	Expenses/month /Year

2	160 Cr		1,920 Cr
3	360 Cr		4,320 Cr
4	640 Cr		7,680 Cr
5	1,000 Cr	12,000 Cr
6	1,440 Cr	17,280 Cr
7	1,960 Cr	23,520 Cr
8	2,560 Cr	30,720 Cr
9	3,240 Cr	38,880 Cr
10	4,000 Cr	48,000 Cr
11	4,840 Cr	58,080 Cr
12	5,760 Cr	69,120 Cr

This covers basic expenses (rent, cloths, food...) for one individual, and
works out about right for the modern US (assuming SS 2 = homeless or
nearly homeless). 

Also, assuming monthly expenses consume 70-75% of monthly pay we can work
out the SS for the various professions listed on Page 113 of T4 by their
monthly pay. 

Pilot (6,000 Cr/month) = SS 10
Navagator (5,000 Cr/month) = SS 9
Engineer (4,000 Cr/month) = SS 8
Medic (2,000 Cr/month) = SS 6
Gunner (1,000 Cr/month) = SS 4

Looks good to me.  It also looks like pilot and navagator are elite,
high-status, occupations.  I imagine they would have special clubs and
such and would have a status similar to doctors or lawyers in our own
society. 

Comments?


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 11:35:18 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Stargates [long]

Below is my personal TAS entry for the use of stargates in Traveller.
Excuse the html tags, as I have ripped them out of my web page.  If you
would like to see the associated pictures, goto
http://www.electric-rain.net/Traveller/TAS.html

This is an attempt to reconcile FTL with our current knowledge of the
Universe in general, and then try and fit the result into Traveller with a
minimum of black box concepts.  Hopefully this pseudo scientific
explaination will be helpful for GM's in some way, even if it is just a
curiosity.

After actually sitting down and hashing out on paper how this whole Jump
gate system will work, and how I would mesh it as much as possible with
the current system, I have come to the conclusion that wormhole's as we
know them would affect Traveller way to much.  If some die hard GM's
really like the idea and want to use it they will have to work pretty hard
to maintain consistency with the current build of Traveller.  

Maybe I should just start my own Universe.

- --------------------------------------------------------

<H3><A name="wormhole">Wormhole</A></H3>
<img Align="right" src="Pix/Wormhole.jpg">
A wormhole is a shortcut for travel between distant points in the
Universe. An artificial Wormhole has two entrances called "mouths".  The
mouths are connected to each other via a tunnel through hyperspace. 
<P>
By traveling the distance between the mouths, a space vessel can travel
immense distance in a FTL fashion in the time it takes to travel the
tunnel's length in normal space.  
<P>
Time to travel any distance through the wormhole is relatively
invariant, being 168 hours +/- 10%. A ship entering the wormhole is
acted upon by a constant "acceleration" to the midpoint of the trip and
a constant "decceleration" of the same magnitude from the midpoint to
the destination. The "acceleration" varies from wormhole to wormhole,
but has never been found to cause a greater than 10% variation in travel
time.
<P>
As an analogy, imagine a trip through a frictionless tunnel connecting two
points on Terra. A trip of any distance would take the same amount of
time.
<P>
The mouth can be of any shape, commonly it's a circle/sphere.  The
wormhole
is a two-way connection, vessels can travel back and fourth between each
mouth to different points in the Universe.    The naturally occurring
wormhole is a peculiar creature indeed.  It blinks into existence, opens
up briefly, then pinches off and ceases to exist.  A natural Wormhole
does not remain open long enough to allow anything to get through the
tunnel before the tunnel collapses, nor is it of sufficient size to allow
anything of any usefull size to get through.
<P>
A way was eventually discovered to locate and manipulate wormholes.
During the initial stages of research, the tiny wormhole's life was
prolonged by protecting it from radiation bombardment, which accelerated
the collapse of the wormhole.  Eventually the wormhole was completely
stabilised and methods were found to enlarge the wormhole for
intersteller travel.
<P>
This was done by threading the wormhole with a material commonly refered
to as exotic material.  Using gravitational forces the wormhole could be
enlarged to any desired size, and kept open indefinitely.   Through the
use of this technique societys were finally able to leave the confines of
their respective solar system's and expand across the Galaxy.
<P>
The creation of a wormhole is a difficult task.  The calculations
associated with the plotting of the wormhole through space  beyond 6
parsecs have been found impossible to solve.  Though it has not yet been
proven insoluble, mathematicians made it their "holy grail" ever since
Fermat's Last Theorem was proven.  Evidence also exists that implies that
the Ancient's were able to travel much further distances than 6 parsecs,
adding fuel to the continued search to break the 6 parsec barrier.
<P>
The method of manipulating natural wormholes is effective due to the
tha fact natural wormholes are common.  This can still present researchers
with problems, as wormholes can sometimes not appear in a given area for
months or even years.  Sometimes suitable natural wormholes have been
found many hundreds of kilometers away from a planet or starbase, forcing
space farers to spend many hours getting from the wormhole to their
destination.  far off stargates are also much more expensive to maintain,
and difficult to defend.
<P>
High Tech Level societys (TL15+) have solved this problem.  They are
able to create artificial wormholes where ever needed. Using a method that
allows them to locate wormholes in the quantum foam, they then can pull
the wormhole out of the foam and mannipulate it to any size they wish.  At
this point a stargate can be built around the newly stablised wormhole. 
<P>
Also see <a href="#ExoticMaterial">Exotic Material</a>, <A
href="#QuantumFoam">Quantum Foam</a> and <A HREF="#StarGate">Star Gate.</A>
<P>


<H3><a name="JumpGate">Jump Gate</a></H3>
<img Align="right" src="Pix/stargate.gif">
[part's of the definition borrowed from Babylon 5]
<P>
A Jump Gate is an artifact that can manipulate wormhole's.  The Gate
maintains the wormhole and keeps it stable.  When the gate is not in use
it reduces the wormhole to its almost normal, tiny state.  When
activated, the Jump Gate expands the wormhole to any desired size.  Thus
the affect of a "blossoming flower" can be observed.
<P>
Most jumpgates are designed with three or four fourteen-kilometer long
generators. The "brackets" are free floating with a
central computer controlling the positional thrusters; these allow the
brackets to re-position for larger than average ships and maintain a
relative stationary position. After activation, a jumpgate usually takes
five minutes to recharge itself, relying on a <A
href="#ZeroPointField">Zero Point Field</A> for it's
primary source of power, with a Solar or Fusion plant as a backup. As
a consequence of such a power output, it takes a long time to shut one
down and even longer to start it back up.
<P>
Jumpgates can be used by any ship (though the control codes can, and
usually are, changed in times of war). The jumpgate automatically bills
the ship that uses it. The money goes to the government who installed the
extremely expensive gate. Shipping companies buy access to the jumpgates
in bulk, assign routes to their ships and then sell the surplus on the
open market.
<P>
Unfortunetly jumpgates are a paired creation, one jumpgate links to
another jumpgate, and that is the only gate that can be travelled to. This
is the jumpgates only known drawback
<P>
Jumpgates broadcast a homing signal that can be picked up a little over
ten-thousand kilometers away.  This signal gives a three dimensional
location for the gate and is a small safety precaution to aide ships that
may have become lost in space.
<P>
Due to accidents during the initial deployment of Gates only one vessel
or one group of vessel's flying in formation may travel through a gate at
any one time.  High tech society's can build vessels that can create wormholes
themselves, without having to rely on a gate, see <a
href="#JumpDrive">Jump Drive</a> for more information.
<P>
During the initial deployment of Gate's, special construction crews were
sent to destination star systems traveling in exceptionally fast vessels
(not FTL).  They would arrive at a particular system, construct a Gate,
activate it, then, if all went well, be able to return via the gate to
their home system.  These trip's would sometimes take hundreds
of Earth years, but generally averaged around the 26 year mark.
Construction time various between a few months to a few years depending on
the technology level of the society.  Eventually, human construction crews
were replaced with slightly more expendable robot crews.
<P>

<H3><a name="QuantumFoam">Quantum Foam</a></H3>
<img Align="right" src="Pix/Foam.jpg">
A foam like structure of space that makes up the cores of singularities
(singularities lie at the heart of Black Holes and cause the creation of
natural wormholes).  The foam occurs in normal space on minisucle scales,
in the vicinity of 1.62x10^33 and smaller.  This is what "space" looks
like, the space in your room, your car, your head and in the Universe.     


<H3><a NAME="ExoticMaterial">Exotic Material</a></H3>
<img Align="right" src="Pix/ExoticMaterial.jpg">
Material that has a negative average energy density, as measured by
someone moving through it at nearly the speed of light.  Commonly used for
Stargate construction, it can be naturally found around the horizion of a
Black Hole.
<P>

<H3><A NAME="Hyperspace">Hyperspace</A></H3>
[Bonehead Maneuver inspired by Babylon 5]
<P>
Hyperspace is a semi-fictitious area between normal space.  It is the
area a wormhole's tunnel exists in.  It is a convenient name for any space
that exists outside of our normal Universe.
<P>

<H3><A NAME="Misjump">Misjump</A></H3>
Sometimes a wormhole fails.  This can be due to the rare, but possible,
collapse of the wormhole or the slightly more likely failure of the Jump
Gate.  Catastrophic failures like these are called misjumps.
They can destroy the ship and its crew.  Other failures can destroy a
drive or send a ship in the wrong direction.  Some misjumps 
spit the vessel out into normal space immediately, sometimes only part of
the way, sometimes many hundreds or even thousands of light years away.
<P>
Misjump's can be enginered.  The opening of a wormhole within a wormhole
can cause a misjump, but normally it causes the complete destruction of
the ship and both wormhole's.  Some military experimentation in this area
has found it to be a semi-effective tactic.  Unfortunetly, the ship or
device creating the wormhole is also destroyed.  After the first such
experiment, the process was named the "Bonehead Maneuver". 
<P>
<H3><A NAME="JumpDrive">Jump Drive</A></H3>
By <a href="mailto:solomani@electric-rain.net">Michael Mifsud</A><br>  
The combination of equipment required to allow the creation of
adhoc wormholes.  Due to the massive power requirement's to "punch a hole"
into hyperspace, then burrow through to a required destination point, only
large or small hyper advanced ships have Jump Drives.
<P>
High tech society's can begin building vessels that can create wormholes
themselves, without having to rely on a gate at TL15. Vessels of TL15 are
experimental, becoming common at TL16. The ship effectively carry's it's
own gate along with it.  The wormhole is created and maintained by a
computer known as the Jump Governor.  The governor locates a useable
wormhole in the quantum foam then creates a worm hole of the required
size.


NOTES
=====
As you might have noticed I have completely ignored the 100t requirement
for Jump Drives.  I dont think thats important as Jump Drives will be much
rarer now and probably only in the hands of the military or megacorps.

The requirement for a Jump Drive to be fited I have not yet worked out,
so I did not bother including any such reference for now.

I have also dispensed with the 10AU jump distance requirement for the
gates.   The restriction still applies for Jump Drive equipped vessels.

The other major impact for Traveller is the increase of free space on most
starships, as the need for Jump Drives has disappeared.  The other is the
restriction of movement between systems - jump paths are excatly that now.
They are iron bound restrictions for all except the most advanced
civilisations.


Definition's
- ------------
FTL: I think Einstein was right, and that there is no way to go faster
than the speed of light.  To get around this problem I use the concept of
'effectively' travelling faster than light.

I define FTL as being able to 'effectively' travel faster than light.  For
example, I have point (A) and point (B).  A vessel leaves point (A) and
heads towards point (B), at the same time the vessel leaves a light beam
is set off heading for point (B).  If the vessel arrives at point (B), by
whatever method, before the light beam then we can say that the vessel has
*effectively* traveled faster than the speed of light.

Hyperspace is a fictious but useful term for the area that the wormhole
'burrows' through.  Most often used in two dimensional models of the
Universe.

Wormholes have been mathmatically proven to exist as far back as 1916.  No
observational data exists.

Quantum Foam is an accepted model of what 'space' looks like under an
exceptional, yet hypothetical, microscope.  No observational data exists.

Exotic Material has been indirectly found to naturaly occur around the
horizons of black hole.  No first hand observational data exists.


References
- ----------
Dr.Kip Thorne "Black Holes and Time Warps" (book)

Dr.Kip Thorne + Dr.Morris and Dr.Yurtsever "Wormholes, Time Machines and
the Weak Energy Condition" (paper)

Dr.Igor Novikov "Wormholes" (paper)


Hand Waving
- -----------
For compatibility with Traveller I have added the following to my Stargate
FTL travel system;

*No wormhole can be longer than 6 parsecs
*All wormholes take a given amount of time to travel - 1week -/+ 10%
*Those travelling through the wormhole are completely cut off from the
normal universe.

To be honest I dont like these ideas at all, as they dont mesh with the
whole wormhole concept, but for Traveller its fine.  If I was creating my
own Universe from scratch, I would defintely not have the above two.

Wormholes are of whatever length, and do not exist in hyperspace per se,
they just tunnel through it.  Which means that the 'space' in the tunnel 
still has to abide by our laws.  So the travel time through the tunnel
would be equal to the entering ships velocity and affected by the tunnels
length.

If I had my way, I would probably make all the wormholes one length.
Also, using this concept of wormhole's Xboats would become much less
important, as messges could be transmitted through the wormhole via
the gate.

Critiques welcome, but as I said this system is porbably *not* compatable
with Traveller as it would change to many things.

Peace,

Michael

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


Kishu
SILENT TRAVELLER
The autumn sun goes down.  Without a cry,
A crow has flown across the orange sky.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 20:02:27 -0500
From: "vanya" <vanya@partyline.net>
Subject: Re: MM's Sector Data

> From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
> It looks like he has put it out to the list to de-bug.  I haven't 
> heard anything personnally, and I've sent two e-mails to IG & Co 
> about the project.

You think MM might want us to develop EEs for each system, also?  (Can you
tell I just got my claws on Pocket Empires?)


- -Vanya                                         UPP-8D9B85
Traveller ---------------- Science Fiction Adventure in the Far Future
Meyers-Briggs personality type:ENTJ          | vanya@partyline.net
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with." | dmoody@bridge.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:09:11 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Meson Radiation

 
> >Then there's nothing to worry about as the meson gun doesn't make
> >things radioactive. The only radiation is *as* it goes off. 
> >
> 	My mistake then.  I was under the assumption that when exposed to
> radiation parts of the starship's hull and internal components would absorb
> a certain amount of the radiation causing them to become radioactive.  I
> guess I was thinking more along the lines of radiation sickness.  Sorry for
> misunderstanding.

This isn't the case in radiation sickness either.  Radiation
sickness is caused by ionizing radiation---the gamma and x-ray
photons basically blow molecules apart by knocking off the electrons
that hold the atoms together.  When this happens within a cell,
things get rather nasty :-)

The only way things become radioactive really is if they absorb
radioactive materials.  So if you eat some veggies with dust on them
and the dust is itself radioactive, you now have radioactive
material in your gut.  The radiation doesn't make your gut
radioactive, though, it just wreaks cells.

Capturing sub-atomic particles within a given atom could transmute
it to an unstable isotope (ie: making it radioactive) but it doesn't
factor into what people typically describe as radiation exposure
(you'd be long dead of ionizing stuff before transmutation of your
atoms made significant portions of you actually radioactive).

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 18:38:50 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Red Shores at Night

At 02:11 PM 5/27/97 -0400, Glenn Grant set me straight:
>"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> sez,

>>For the Lunion Subsector (these are from my own campaign, be warned.)
>>Shirene (Amber)
>>Many animals on this world carry Turner's Syndrome, a rabies-like
>>infection.  There is no cure, and most sufferers are put to death before
>>the final stages of the disease, which features murderous rages and other
>>psychotic behavoir.
>
>I suppose in the far future there might be something else called Turner's
>Syndrome, but I feel compelled to point out that, in the Real World(tm),
>there's already a genetic disorder known as Turner's Syndrome. 

<Interesting real-world stuff snipped, saved, and dropped into the Quality
black hole>

Oops.  That's what I get for naming things off the top of my head.  The
Turner I was refering to is a friend who get progressivly more manical as
cons go by, he's almost rabid by Sunday evening.

Thanks for the information though, I believe a friend's wife has one of the
syndromes you mention.. when we first met her, everybody thought she was a
TS.  
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
|  Creative Planetologist, THUDDer, 20 year vet  |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
|  "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|  about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|  Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|   -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin"  |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 18:31:33 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Jump troop tactics (longish)

At 05:44 PM 5/27/97 -0400, Brett Fishburne wrote:

>At 09:17 PM 5/26/97 -0700, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>>Pick-up is the riskiest element, since a large vessel has to land and hold
>>still long enough for the Marines to board.  Once aboard, the recovery
>>vessel initiates the "getting the hell out of here" maneuver, and
>>rendezvous with the transport, which should already be leaving orbit.
>>
>>Total time on the ground: less than one hour.
>
>Why not drop some drone recovery ships which land at preset locations and
>preset times?  The drones could be dropped from a carrier and could handle
>3-4 marines with some heavy arms.  The signature would be small and the ship
>would be highly maneuverable so it could easily evade enemy fire until
>touchdown.  The drone could touch at several drop sites before giving up and
>going back to the mother ship.  No problem with the big ship...

Two reasons why I don't think drones would be a good idea...

1> Reliability.  Drones are great, as long as nothing breaks.  A manned
ship can take action when something goes wrong, and more importantly,
improvise when Murphy pokes his head into the situation.

2> Accountability.  Having all the Marines embark on one vehicle means an
accurate head count can be taken.  Even with advanced technology, the Gunny
is going to personally check off every man as he boards, and then double
check with the squad leaders, before he clears the hatchway.  

I may change the single pinnace into a couple of Gigs in the final design..
Marine apes don't need comfort when they're blasting back into orbit.
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
|  Creative Planetologist, THUDDer, 20 year vet  |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
|  "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|  about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|  Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|   -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin"  |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1373
***********************************

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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, May 28 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1374



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Use of Jump Troops and non-use of EMP
Re: Casulaties
Re: Casulaties
Re: Casulaties
Re: Cross-platform pseudocompatibility
Jump! Jump!
Re: smart guns
TL 4 Work Boot
Re: Cross-platform pseudocompatibility
Genetics Errors
Server trouble, at my place...
Speed calculation (was Re: Relativistic m-drives: ERRATA)
Pocket Empires - a question
How to go about the Sector-data-control work?
Re: Use of Jump Troops and non-use of EMP
Jump troops
Re: Sector Data
Re: Could someone send me....
Re: Stargates

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 18:53:33 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Use of Jump Troops and non-use of EMP

At 11:57 PM 5/27/97 -0700, Ian Whitchurch wrote:

>I think one issue that has been missed with the effective use of
>Jump Troops is the neccessity of minimizing collateral damage on
>the planet. Whilst there may well be a military necessity to use
>, say, EMP weapons to support an invasion, I can see a great deal 
>of reluctance to do so, because of the collateral damage this
>would do to the planet's economy.

It all depends on how badly you want to take the world.  When the Imperium
took Earth, they had good reason not to lay waste to the entire planet, and
so had to send in hundreds of thousands of troops.  On the other hand, if
you don't care about the planet's value, nuke it till it glows and move on.

>The second issue with nuclear EMP weapons is their vulnerability
>to nuclear dampers, which can presumably be used at some range.

That's why I stress EMS jammers.  I haven't done the math, but I imagine
you could put quite a lot of jamming power along with a short term battery
(1-2 hours) in 7m3 drop capsule.  (IMTU: The Marines use bagpipes playing
"Scotland the Brave" to jam all channels.. confuses the hell out of the
Zhodani.)

>The point about the vulnerability of lightly-equipped Jump Troops 
>to armour was well made, however if space superiority is assumed,
>the Jump Troops would be able to call down a large amount of 
>ortillery fire, particularily ship-mounted conventional missiles
>in an anti-armour role.

The oldest military rule, control the high ground, is once again affirmed.
But even with ships in orbit, the travel for fire support will be extreme.
From the point of view of the Marine/trooper, anything more than 30 seconds
is way to long when you need that support now!  Lasers will retain a role
in close support, especially against sprinting grav tanks that show
themselves above cover.

The most likely support missle I see is a cluster munition.. Either
hundreds of superdense, guided "crowbars" for anti-armor work, or
submunitions for soft targets.  A dual-purpose round would most often
employed.  Dropped along the route of advance of defending forces, these
puppies could turn an attack into a route before contact is made.  

This means that the defenders will do their best to avoid detection.  The
EW situation from ground to orbit will likely be a case of frantic attempts
to burn through jamming to gain critical intellegence, while trying to
avoid potshots from ground mounted laser batteries.  Even in the Far
Future, human recon will have a role.

Even with fire support, the jump troops *need* to be relieved quickly.
They just aren't built for the long haul.

- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
|  Creative Planetologist, THUDDer, 20 year vet  |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
|  "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|  about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|  Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|   -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin"  |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 18:22:21 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Casulaties

At 03:32 PM 5/27/97 -0400, Pierre-Louis Constantin wrote:
 
>	On this topic, almost everybody seems to say something along
>the lines of "stabilize the body till it's shipped to the field
>hospital".  But this assumes that the sole use of first aid is to
>keep the soldier alive till aid comes - how about a combat philosophy
>that says "keep the soldier FIGHTING till you can't find any bits
>left of him"?  I'm thinking of technologies like, say, battle dresses
>that pinches off the blood supply to parts of the body that are
>hemorraging/badly damaged, computer-monitored drug injections,
>servomechanical takeover of unconscious men, etc etc? 

One of the things that makes our Army one of the best in the world is it's
rapid evacuation and treatment of wounded soldiers.  During Vietnam,
soldiers from allied countries were shocked when helicopters were called in
to take out a single casualty.  This is part of the reason for the high
morale of the American forces. (I can't speak for others, perhaps some of
our European collegues can mail me on how their services handle medical evac)

If I knew that I was expected to fight until I was blown apart, and that if
I faltered, my equipment would keep me slogging in harm's way, I wouldn't
do shit more than I had to, and that would require an engraved invitation
from the Commanding General.

Think about it.. if you know that if you are wounded, you won't recieve
aid; would you be willing to take unecessary risks?

Most TL 9+ forces will incorporate medical monitors in armor, the better to
both monitor the condition of the troop, and to aid in stabilizing him when
wounded.  Items like autoinjectors, pressure cuffs, and auto-retrieval
would be heavy, and confined to battledress equipped units.

In an Army with large numbers of grav vehicles, making a dust-off would be
simple.. any clear spot larger than an air/raft would suffice.

>	Would it be possible to design an 'Extremely Light Emergency
>Berth' that you can attach directly to combat armor and battle
>dresses, using most of the armor's life support system?  I would
>probably simplify battlefield first aid if you had one field medic in
>light battledress just flit about the battlefield with a grav sled,
>pick up fallen comrades, plugs them into the sled and carry them off.
>Or if the sled would be too easy/big a target, just have the medic
>carry 2 kg ELEB cubes and plug one into each damaged battle dress.

It'd be easier and more effcient to build an ambulance with a single
emergency low berth inside.  Just chuck the trooper in and hit the switch.
But since the medical unit is either going to be a> really close by, or b>
way too far away, a simple bunk to hold the wounded trooper still during
the flight to the field hospital would suffice.  Since cold sleep incurs
some risk, I wouldn't want to subject an already wounded/shocky man to it.
One of the first rules of treating battlefield injuries is to keep the
subject awake to try to avoid shock.

- --

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
|   "Wide unclasp the tables of their thoughts    |
|  These same thoughts people this little World"  |
|      - inscription on a stained glass window,   |
|        found in the Winchester Mystery House.   |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 22:37:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brett Fishburne <bfish@atlantech.net>
Subject: Re: Casulaties

At 03:32 PM 5/27/97 -0400, pierre-louis constantin wrote:
> 
>	On this topic, almost everybody seems to say something along
>the lines of "stabilize the body till it's shipped to the field
>hospital".  But this assumes that the sole use of first aid is to
>keep the soldier alive till aid comes - how about a combat philosophy
>that says "keep the soldier FIGHTING till you can't find any bits
>left of him"?  I'm thinking of technologies like, say, battle dresses
>that pinches off the blood supply to parts of the body that are
>hemorraging/badly damaged, computer-monitored drug injections,
>servomechanical takeover of unconscious men, etc etc? 

This all seems reasonable given the advance stages of battle dress.  Could
you imagine hitting the battle dress and causing this stuff to malfunction?
How about attacking someones battle dress and causing it to overpump adreneline?

>	Would it be possible to design an 'Extremely Light Emergency
>Berth' that you can attach directly to combat armor and battle
>dresses, using most of the armor's life support system?  I would
>probably simplify battlefield first aid if you had one field medic in
>light battledress just flit about the battlefield with a grav sled,
>pick up fallen comrades, plugs them into the sled and carry them off.
>Or if the sled would be too easy/big a target, just have the medic
>carry 2 kg ELEB cubes and plug one into each damaged battle dress.

It would probably be reasonable for these berths to be painted white with a
big red cross and no one would shoot them down.  This would work on the
premise that an alive, but incapacitated soldier is a larger drain then a
dead soldier.  That's not to say that they wouldn't be subject to friendly
fire or accidents...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 21:51:37 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Casulaties

On Tue, 27 May 1997, pierre-louis constantin wrote:

>  
> 	On this topic, almost everybody seems to say something along
> the lines of "stabilize the body till it's shipped to the field
> hospital".  But this assumes that the sole use of first aid is to
> keep the soldier alive till aid comes - how about a combat philosophy
> that says "keep the soldier FIGHTING till you can't find any bits
> left of him"?

You would end up with a bunch of very highly trained, well armed and
armored troops who would turn around and frag the CO's who tried to do
that.

Then they'd go and frag the society that treated them as mere expendables
like ammunition.

I can't think of a better way to incite mutiny, short of serving
spam....again.

Equipping fanatic troops, like Tamil suicide bombers, with such gear might
work for a little while, but the drawback with troops so willing to die
for their cause is that they are always very impatient to do so...and then
the better trained troop who want to live, win, in the long run.



Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 97 23:25:31 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Cross-platform pseudocompatibility

On 1997-05-27 16:22 thus spake JEFF ZEITLIN:

>  The point is: If the stackwriters can give me enough
>  information about their stacks, I can write a functionally
>  equivalent PAD using HyperPAD, and make it available to the
>  Wintel users.  Enough information is defined as the name and
>  type of all controls on each card, plus a printout of each
>  script associated with the stack, cards, and controls, plus a
>  description of the actions of any default event handlers that
>  can/should be assumed to exist in the HyperCard environment.
>  HyperPAD doesn't support graphics; clickable graphics that
>  aren't the equivalent of imagemaps would have to become
>  buttons instead; such graphics should be noted.  If there are
>  imagemap equivalents, we'll have to talk, and deal with them
>  on a case-by-case basis.  I'm willing to take a stab at it if
>  the stackwriters are willing to assist as I've outlined.
>
>  Comments?  Questions?  Criticisms?  Advice?  Flames (send
>  these to /dev/null, please)?  Ideas?

I think I'd have to agree with Rob, the translation process is probably 
the more convoluted way to go. It's better for you to start from scratch.

Another route would be for a list member with a Mac server to get Live 
Card from Royal Software. This beauty allows one to run Hypercard stacks 
over a Macintosh internet server. Anyone on any platform, Windoze, UNIX, 
whatever... with a graphical web-browser can use the stack, and even 
update data in it! I've never seen it in action, but it sounds promising. 
Anyone know more?

Hypercard 3.0, the cross-platform version which will be part of the 
Quicktime Interactive release "early in 1998", will hopefully allow those 
of us with Macs to *finally* directly share our creations with our WinTel 
Traveller bretheren. Poor saps!

PS. More info on Live Card can be found at
<http://www.interedu.com/royalsoftware/descriptions/LiveCard.html>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 01:01:22 -0500
From: The Stump Family <stumps@earthlink.net>
Subject: Jump! Jump!

Whew! Hot topic. I am amazed by the ideas flying around. Let's see if I
can (intelligently) respond to some of the questions/statements.
- -Yep, light infantry would be chewed up by even mechanized forces, let
alone grav tanks. You get around this by either a) only holding enough
real estate for the anti-tank teams to arrive from orbit or b) not
letting them find you (i.e., being a small, fast unit that leaves soon).
- -If you are planning to invade a planet with deep meson sites and you
drop jump troop, the smart money is on the fact that they will assault
at least one of the meson sites - this makes the whole invasion MUCH
easier.
- -as far as expensive drop pods, weeeelllll.... As Murphy said, 'always
remember that your equipment is made by the lowest bidder'. These very
expensive contra-grav pods probably exist; but the average trooper will
never see one. The Golden Knights (the U.S. Army's Parachute Competition
Team) uses $20,000 parachutes while the average paratrooper uses chutes
made in the late '70s.
- -I thought I mentioned a scenario where a drop ship that was mocked up
as a civilian ship drops a small unit? Was that lost? (My mail vanishes
sometimes). Best way to drop small units, IMO, because it depends on
someone not paying attention to the routine.

More later!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 08:18:28 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: smart guns

>I forsee this technology being made available in the form of a nanochip
>transponder surgically implanted into the police officer's hand. It's use
>would be available on TL A or B+ worlds. Whether or not it would be used
>would depend upon the population and law level. Certainly, high pop worlds
>with above average law levels would not hesitate to make sure that guns were
>not usable at all by the local pop.
>
>I leave further creative sparks on this matter to you. =)

You could even have a low power narrow beam transmitter in the gun and a
small coded transponder in the ring/badge/surgically implant that would
make the gun refuse to fire if aimed at a policeman. This would be really
beneficial for police and also great fun for the electronically inclined
slightly less law abiding PCs.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 01:15:14 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: TL 4 Work Boot

I've created a TL 4 Work Boot equipment sheet for my game.

Like the other sheets I've posted recently, this one is margined to 
allow for three ring binder holes.  It is in Word v2.0, which is 
importable to later versions.

All stats are on the sheet, and I have a Vargr version as well.

If you want to add this to your collection of supplies, e-mail me in 
private.

Thanks,

Kenneth.
    the studious GM

PS  other sheets I have available are--

Vechicle Card (designed by Marc Miller)

T4 Character Sheet (designed for KBv2.0 but easily converted to the
official system)

T4 Slug Ammo Sheet (originally designed for TNE information, but can
be used for any edition of Traveller

T4 Money Sheet (to keep track of a character's funds)

T4 Character Damage Record (to keep track of a character's hit 
points)

TL 3 Pysadian Filter Mask

Miscellaneous Equipment Sheet (with rules for use)

TL 1 Pysadian Cold Weather Clothing

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 09:07:05 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Cross-platform pseudocompatibility

>  Rob Prior and a couple of other people have written Hypercard
>  stacks for various Traveller-related purposes.  There is one
>  minor problem with Hypercard stacks: people with Wintel
>  systems can't do squat with them.
>
>  (Yes, I know, you Mac people face the same problem with the
>  wide range of DosWin software out there, but you at least have
>  the SoftWindows/SoftPC kludge that has a chance of working.
>  We Wintel folks don't have an equivalent option - and don't
>  tell us to buy Macs; we've made significant investment, and
>  Macs still cost more than comparable Wintel boxen.  And
>  that's not the issue here!)
>
>  I think I have a shot at being able to do something about that
>  particular problem, _if_ the stackwriters will offer a small
>  amount of co=96peration in exchange.

SuperCard can import HyperCard stacks and is cross platform. SuperCard also
has MUCH better color handling, object graphics etc and can create
standalones that are royaltyfree. Another option if one wants to do some
rewriting of code which would definately be the case for "HyperPAD" is to
use Macromedia Director whose script language closely resembles Hypercards
HyperTalk. Director can also create royaltyfree standalones and has the
added benefit of being able to save as ShockWave for web embedding. The
pending release of Director (6.0) will have internet connections and java
embedding as well in its projects so that's the one I think.
Sadly both SuperCard and Director costs quite a bundle.

>  We Wintel folks don't have an equivalent option - and don't
>  tell us to buy Macs; we've made significant investment, and
>  Macs still cost more than comparable Wintel boxen.  And
>  that's not the issue here!)

There are no comparable WinTel boxes at any price ;)
(The smiley marks this as a positive statements with no malice - I do
consider it an actual truth but critically OFF TOPIC)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 01:38:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Genetics Errors

Glen Grant wrote:

>The convicts in the (truly awful) movie _Aliens 3_ were XYY 'supermales'
>who had been put on the prison colony because of their overly aggressive
>tendencies. Prison populations do indeed have a far higher percentage of
>XYY men than the general population.

Actually, this is a very persistent (but wholly untrue) myth.  The history
of US popular biology is full of massive amounts of misinformation about
genetics.  The XYY "Supermale" idea originated in the early 50s and has
been cropping up ever since.  The initial study was done with an extremely
small sample size and was disproved shortly thereafter. 

Biological determinism (of which the XYY myth is an example) may be
popular in some (conservative) circles, but evidence for it is still
nonexistent. 
<end rant>

- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:51:18 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Server trouble, at my place...

If anybody tried to contact me yesterday it might not have gotten 
through as the server was down. You might have to try again.Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 12:12:46 +0200
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Speed calculation (was Re: Relativistic m-drives: ERRATA)

Robert Flammang wrote:

>   The good news (for high speed travellers).   The new formulae let you
>   travel from place to place alot more quickly than the old ones do!
>   Here are a few charts to make the point.  Along the top of each chart
>   is the ship's acceleration rating.   Along the left side is the
>   distance traveled in parsecs.  The body of the chart shows the time
>   in years of the flight.


>   Chart 1:  The time experienced by the ship's crew, in years.
>           A=      1G      2G      3G      4G      5G      6G
>      300pc        13.74   7.56    5.31    4.13    3.39    2.89

>   Chart 2:  The time as seen by the stationary star systems, in years
>           A=      1G      2G      3G      4G      5G      6G
>      300pc        962     961     961     960     960     960

Very interesting!

I was just wondering something:

As chart 2 shows, the ship is travelling very near to speed of light. If
captors could measure the ship's speed, it would be around c

Now, as this ship should have speed measurement, what speed would it
calculate? The chart 1 would say that the speed is way higer than c, but I
must have missed something.

Imagine that the ship is passing by a static ateroid, this velocity should
be given by the relative velocity of this static rock. As the time is much
slower than for the static rock, the speed would be much higher (this is
shown by the chart 1). On ther other hand, if it calculates such a speed,
the photons too, so the potons from the asteroid couldn't reached the ship
which is a non-sense

Could someone explain me how to calcuale the ship speed from the ship. And
what walue would it have? 


BTW, is this feasible? 
With Heplar technology, no way
But with those thurster plates or some other reactionless magical m-drives.

Imagine a specialized ship with a 6G thruster plates, and good grav
compensator, sufficient fusion plant fuel. Good accomodation even low
berth. Sufficient redundancy in the equipement to avoid major breakdown
during 10-50 years. Maybe the ship has to be very bulky too.

This ship could go very far, in a very short (relativistic) time. I know
this kind of exploration wouldn't have any interest for the staying people.
But for mad explorators (one way ticket), this should be a great challenge.

You dislike your civilization, you wish to leave you world. Build this kind
of ship, and leave this location and era. Awake 10 years after you left,
and watch the billions of years which have passed... Maybe you will be
looked like a bizzare beast from the past, a primitive living...

Other case: You are a (mad) scientist and you want to verify his theory
about the density of the univers (would it decrease some time?). "Go to the
future" and check it by yourself.

Not very Traveller, but for an alternative SF setting, should be fun?
- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr 
   Mailto:marben@worldnet.net (Week-end only!)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 22:52:47 +1200
From: Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Pocket Empires - a question

Having just got my hot little hands on a copy of PE today. I have one
question: where is the "alien race table" mentioned at the end of chapter 3?
I can't find it.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
"Baby, Mother, Hospital, Scissors, Creature, Judgment, Butcher, Engineer"
      -:  OMD, 19-2-1983
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:15:29 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: How to go about the Sector-data-control work?

Does anybody have any ideas? I feel it would be quite useless, if we 
all did it seperately.....!
Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 01:13:52 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Use of Jump Troops and non-use of EMP

In mail you write:

> The second issue with nuclear EMP weapons is their vulnerability
> to nuclear dampers, which can presumably be used at some range.

I think you could create the same EMP by slamming a "rock" of the right
(metallic) composition into the upper atmosphere at a few hundred
km/sec. Pick an easily ionized metal, and you'll saturate the
ionisphere (which is essentially what a nuclear EMP blast does). 

So dampers aren't a defense.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 00:42:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Jump troops

I'll work up more data later, but here's an interesting data point.

If a capsule has a velocity of approx 3.3 km/sec towards the ground,
and can decelerate at 22.2... meters/sec (a bit over a 2 gee), then it'll
cover 1000 km during 5 minutes of deceleration, at the end of which it
has a velocity of zero.

So if you can inject the capsule into the atmosphere at 1000 km with a
3.3 km/sec downward velocity, the troops hit the ground in *5* minutes,
and hardly experience any high gees!

So the question is now, how do you get the ship to the point where it
can make this drop?

And what about using higher accel for the 5 minutes? Note that you
don't really hit atmosphere until less that 1000 km. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 00:59:33 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Sector Data

In mail you write:

> I am not sure how we should go about it...
> As Marc proposed it, we should mail him so he could send us the data.
> I already have it. There are some new problems with the data and we 
> are supposed to fix them, look them over.
> Maybe we should create a new list for this purpose, so we can discuss 
> the data in detail without wasting TML-bandwidth...
> Ken? MPGN? Anybody?

I don't think it's wasting all that much bandwidth. 

One thing I'd like to know is how "consistent" the data format is. If
it's consistent enough, I'll try to get a copy and write a program that
"sanity checks" the data. That'd be a case of looking for susopicious
runs, and especially checking to see that the data is "legal" (ie law
is *possible* given the pop and gov). 

If we can agree on what sort of tests to run, then IG can *have* a copy
of the program. It'd be easier than counting on a human proofreader for
all that data. Think of it as a "spell checker" for sectors.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 00:10:33 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Could someone send me....

In mail you write:

>> I may be missing something (forgive me if this is true) but it seems
>> that for whatever reason, the ship lauching the jump troops was not
>> detected jumping into the system.  Given that, how about a sneakier,
>> long term approach.  Create a pod that contains your marines in cold
>> sleep and power for a few months.  Insert inside a small asteroid (so
>> that sensors will just see "a rock")  Let the pod go on a coarse that
>> makes it look like an incoming meteor from the far reaches of the
>> system.  As the "meteor" approaches the atmosphere have it shed its
>> rocky covering allowing it to use its atmospheric breaking, thrusters,
>> and whatever else.  A small computer begins waking your troops at some
>> point during all this.  Then procede as with normal jump troop
>> insertion, but hopefully with quite a bit of surprise.

Only trouble is, any planet with decent spasce capability is going to
detect this *at least* 10-100 light seconds out. That's several *days*.
They'll either send a ship to nudge it into a non-intercept course, or,
because it is so small, blast it into chunks.

Space has this problem... it's *empty*. That means that you can't hide.
It's like being in the middle of a shopping center parking lot with no
cars. *Anything* sticks out like a sore thumb.

Heinlein's cap troopers get away with it because *their* star drive
let's them pop out of drive almost in orbit of the planet.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 13:48:27 +0200
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Re: Stargates

Michael wrote:

[All descriptions snipped]

Interesting. But I have  a few questions and remarks


>Exotic Material
>Material that has a negative average energy density, as measured by
>someone moving through it at nearly the speed of light.  Commonly used for
>Stargate construction, it can be naturally found around the horizion of a
>Black Hole.

What is (or would be) the main different property of this materials.


>Hand Waving
>-----------
>For compatibility with Traveller I have added the following to my Stargate
>FTL travel system;
>
>*No wormhole can be longer than 6 parsecs
>*All wormholes take a given amount of time to travel - 1week -/+ 10%
>*Those travelling through the wormhole are completely cut off from the
>normal universe.
>
>To be honest I dont like these ideas at all, as they dont mesh with the
>whole wormhole concept, but for Traveller its fine.  If I was creating my
>own Universe from scratch, I would defintely not have the above two.

I agree, those ideas don't serve your background well. This wormholes and
stargats need an alternate universe.


>If I had my way, I would probably make all the wormholes one length.
>Also, using this concept of wormhole's Xboats would become much less
>important, as messges could be transmitted through the wormhole via
>the gate.

Yes it would be interesting that all tunnels had different caracteristics
(required energy, lenth, travel time, misjump probability...)




There are other more important consequences. To close interstellar traffic,
you just have to "unplug" the stargate generator. 

This mean that military conflicts should be very rare or very different
from those in Traveller. IMO this is the main difference from the
(so-called) Canon.

Further as you've said the intallation of such devices would be very long
and expensive . You cannot connect an unvisited system until you send a
ship by normal space. This should take a long time. Are there many
companies which would spend billions credits of inverstment, hundred years
before the first income. This seems financially very risky! Maybe some new
technology would allow new way of starfarring. Or maybe the world would not
be interested in starfarring in 100 years!


IMO, if a univers with such devices exists, I wouldn't build too many of
them. I would not create a 10.000+ worlds univers like Traveller. I would
create 10-20 worlds with different original races on each. Interstellar
wars would be nearly inexistent or more like commando, terrorism or black
operations. This RPG would rely moslty on diplomatic and economic activity. 

Interesting but very different from Traveller, not because of the
technology but because of what you can or cannot do with this technology.
- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr 
   Mailto:marben@worldnet.net (Week-end only!)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1374
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, May 28 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1375



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Living expenses
Re:Smart Guns
Re: jump troops
Alien Race Table
Re: Speed calculation
Re: jump troops et al
Re: casualties
Re:Smart Guns
M:0/FS Sector data
Re: Use of Jump Troops and non-use of EMP
"Smart" guns
Re: Sector Data
Re: Starports
Speed calculation (was Re: Relativistic m-drives: ERRATA)
Re: Living expenses
FFS 2
Re: Sector Data (suggesting improvements(and something for CORE)
Re: Stargates
PE and JTAS 26
Re: M:0/FS Sector data
Casualties (no typoes! :)
Re: Sector Data
Re: "Smart" guns
Re:FF&S Playtesters Info

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:15:57 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Living expenses

David J. Golden writes:
>>...average, ordinary living can be had for Cr600 per month (This is based 
>>on the assumption that roughly the same amount of money is used on food, 
>>lodging, and basic necessities. Check your budget. Dosen't it fit fairly 
>>well?).
> 
>	Err ... no. Unless a Cr is worth significantly more than a US$.

Are you saying that your budget dosent correspond to my figures unless the
cerdit is worth a lot more than a dollar. That may well be. The figure I
give is based on information I got from a few Americans some time ago and
I can't vouch for them. In another posting someone suggests $3 per credit.
Does that fit better? Anyway, what I was asking was whether the '1 part for
food, 1 part for lodging, and 1 part for other expenses' fits your own
budget. It fits mine and most of the dozen people I asked about it some
years ago.
 
>>Back in 1779 one credit was worth about one US dollar. Today it is closer to 
>>between 1.5 and 2 dollars.
> 
>	Err ... closer but still not. Even if I were renting instead of 
>buying a house, the rental market in this area is so high I'd be paying 
>about the same.

Perhaps you're living better than 'ordinary'? 'Good living' would cost
Cr1200 per month and 'High living' anything from Cr1800 up.
 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 23:27:17 +1000
From: Scott & Isabell <becubed@connexus.apana.org.au>
Subject: Re:Smart Guns

>I was reading through Wired and stumbled across a snippet article on "smart
>guns." Apparently Colt is working on a way to require police guns to be armed
>only via a transponder (worn as a ring on the trigger finger) which will need
>to be in close proximity to the weapon in order to work. Colt is conducting
>rigorous testing and doesn't forsee the product being available until after
>2000. Of course in Trav, we don't have to wait that long. =)
>
>I forsee this technology being made available in the form of a nanochip
>transponder surgically implanted into the police officer's hand. It's use
>would be available on TL A or B+ worlds. Whether or not it would be used
>would depend upon the population and law level. Certainly, high pop worlds
>with above average law levels would not hesitate to make sure that guns were
>not usable at all by the local pop.
>
>I leave further creative sparks on this matter to you. =)
>
><Enter Lurkspace>
>\_/
>DED
>

From a Guns  & Ammo mag on high tech firearms I purchased last year.

The SSR-6 (or Smart Safety Revolver) marketed by Fulton Arms of Houston,
Texas, is one of the few "smart guns" on the market. It is of particular
interest to police, since FBI data indicate about 16 percent of the
officers killed in the line of duty are killed by an adversary armed with a
service firearm. Built on a modified Dan Wesson revolver frame, other
revolver frame designs, as well as a pistol version, may be offered soon.
The SSR-6's three-part safety system consists of a "black box" decoder
built into the handgun grip custom-fitted to the authorized user's hand and
an encoder finger ring. When the shooter's hand grasps the gun, the ring
sends a message to an electronic sensor inside the grip. The sensor decodes
the message and allows the gun to fire. Without the ring on the shooter's
finger, the gun will not discharge. One drawback to the SSR-6 is its steep
price of about $1 ,800.

Also have a news paper article on an Australian designed VERY rapid fire
machine gun. So far tested at 45,000 to 135,00 rounds per minute, the
phalanx equivalent would fire at ten million. If any one is interested let
me know and I'll post it.

Scott

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 97 10:04:18 EDT
From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Subject: Re: jump troops

- --- Michael wrote:
The expense of losing well trained reusable elite forces as
opposed to equiping them with the best is a poultry sum.
- --- end of quote ---
Does this imply it counts as chicken feed?  and all this time I thought the
word was 'paltry'... ;->

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 08:53:25 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Alien Race Table

Here is the Alien Race Table which was inadvertently left out of the 
printed version of Pocket Empires.  I've also sent it to the IG Web Site 
for inclusion in their Errata page.


ALIEN RACE TABLE

Roll  Race Type
 2-9  Minor human race.
10-11 Minor alien race.
 12+  Major alien race.



- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh  |  Game Designer for Marc Miller's Traveller
_________________|  Atari 1200XL and Apple IIGS User and Programmer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:56:16 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Speed calculation

>Now, as this ship should have speed measurement, what speed would it
>calculate? The chart 1 would say that the speed is way higer than c, but I
>must have missed something.

The crew will notice that the universe seem to contarct along the axis of
movement. If they measure their speed as we went from star a to star b in 3
years but the distance separating them is 6 LY thus we're moving at 2xc.
The universe will seem compressed however so that it's onlly half as long
in that direction so they could also argue that while it took us three
years to go from a to b but the distance between a and be seem to have
shrunk to slightly less than 50% of what it normally is thus we're
travelling at near c.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 97 10:04:43 EDT
From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Subject: Re: jump troops et al

- --- 'twas writ:
I changed the designation to Rapid Interface a few years back... sounds
more military.  In the popular lexicon, "Jump Trooper" brings to mind the
same sort of iron-jawed Lee Marvin-ish hero that "Green Beret" evokes for
Americans.

<snicker>

This also means that every drop pod has RIP stenciled in big letters on the
side...
- --- end of quote ---
LOL! Thats rich! Assumign I get to the stage of planetary assault, THAT is
definitely goin' on my troops pods!!!:->

------------------------------

Date: 28 May 97 10:13:43 EDT
From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Subject: Re: casualties

- --- Bruce wrote:
Equipping fanatic troops, like Tamil suicide bombers, with such gear might
work for a little while, but the drawback with troops so willing to die
for their cause is that they are always very impatient to do so...and then
the better trained troop who want to live, win, in the long run.
- --- end of quote ---
Exactly so. The quote someone offered with regards to infantry charges, with
the Sarge heading over the wall yelling "Follow me!" and the troops saying
"Have fun, sir!" comes to mind....

For troops with training and a purpose other than their own destruction will go
to great lengths to derive clever ways to get that job done without getting
kilt. The suicider, on the other hand, tends to lose sight of the clever
options and gets right to the point of spreading themselves (literally) all
over some targetted chunk of real estate .

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 07:48:29 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re:Smart Guns

On Wed, 28 May 1997, Scott & Isabell wrote:
 
> Also have a news paper article on an Australian designed VERY rapid fire
> machine gun. So far tested at 45,000 to 135,00 rounds per minute, the
> phalanx equivalent would fire at ten million. If any one is interested let
> me know and I'll post it.

Yes YES YES!! Big guns!! We need BIG GUNS!!!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 11:52:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: M:0/FS Sector data

I have just recieved my copy of the amended Sector data from Marc this 
morning, overall, a very good redo. Here are my first impressions.

Weren't Delphi, Fornast ans Zarushagar Sectors going to be unpublished? 
 Allowing for the individual GM's to design as they see fit?

I see some Scout Bases, but NO Naval Bases.  Are there Naval bases in Year 
0?

Here's a strange one, doing a text find in Word, I discovered 2 VLANDS! yes 
theres another 'Vland' in Fornast sector.  Hex #0340  B260951-8.

Those are the only bugs I have discovered, so far :)

Now for questions:

With regards to major Worlds (Sylea, Vland, etc...)  TML  or perhaps IRC 
could be a good place to discuss this.  My solution is keep the original M:0 
Sylea, and downgrade Vland from 1100 to 0, but making sure the TL is 9(or a 
low TL 10?) as is stated in M:0.

Another question is where/how are the homeworlds for the Aliens in 'Alien's 
Archive' going to be placed?  These could be considered major worlds as 
well.

Well, I suppose I should be getting back to work now, the boss is looking 
over my shoulder again!  :)

Commander X

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:10:26 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Dr. Vince" <drvince@ix8.ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Use of Jump Troops and non-use of EMP

At 01:13 AM 5/28/97 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> The second issue with nuclear EMP weapons is their vulnerability
>> to nuclear dampers, which can presumably be used at some range.
>
>I think you could create the same EMP by slamming a "rock" of the right
>(metallic) composition into the upper atmosphere at a few hundred
>km/sec. Pick an easily ionized metal, and you'll saturate the
>ionisphere (which is essentially what a nuclear EMP blast does). 
>
>So dampers aren't a defense.

Also, there are non-rock, non-nuclear means of generating an EMP...

I read an interesting little blurb about them at infowar.com...I can't
remember exactly where in the site, but it's at www.infowar.com

Vince

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:58:43 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: "Smart" guns

Anders wrote:
>You could even have a low power narrow beam transmitter in the gun and a
>small coded transponder in the ring/badge/surgically implant that would
>make the gun refuse to fire if aimed at a policeman. This would be really
>beneficial for police and also great fun for the electronically inclined
>slightly less law abiding PCs.

  The criminal class would have a ball with these things.  Organized crime
would probably have 'em before the street cops do.  Better than bullet
proof vests!

  Of course, the cops would be carrying a 'backup/throwaway' lacking any
such gizmos.  Do I have to mention that the crooks would have 'em too?  :-)
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
"In 1991, [Vice President] Gore cited Bush's China policy as a reason he 
should be defeated for reelection, charging Bush sent his emissaries to 
toast the butchers of Tiananmen Square.'" -- Deborah Orin in the New York 
Post, March 26, 1997, the day after Gore drank champagne with Chinese 
Premier Li Peng, who helped plan the Tiananmen massacre
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 11:24:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Sector Data

In a message dated 97-05-27 13:48:39 EDT, you write:

> Maybe we should create a new list for this purpose, so we can discuss 
>  the data in detail without wasting TML-bandwidth...
>  Ken? MPGN? Anybody?

Isn't this what this list is about? Discussing Traveller and what it does,
how it plays, what it should do? I don't think you are wasting bandwidth when
you snip a world UWP from the file and show it along with what you think it
should do.

Marc Miller

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 17:58:58 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: Starports

Quoth Marc Miller:

>	E. Frontier starport. With no facilities, the installation is little more
>than a flat expanse of bedrock and a sign. This designation effectively means
>there is no starport.

        So, is this the ultimate fix for the absence of X starports in first
Survey? The "X" and "E" starports are merged, and called "E"?

        Carlos

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 11:54:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Speed calculation (was Re: Relativistic m-drives: ERRATA)

   Hi.

> Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 12:12:46 +0200
> From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>

> I was just wondering something:

> As chart 2 shows, the ship is travelling very near to speed of light. If
> captors could measure the ship's speed, it would be around c

> Now, as this ship should have speed measurement, what speed would it
> calculate? The chart 1 would say that the speed is way higer than c, but I
> must have missed something.

   Ahh.  You have forgotten that at relativistic speeds, lengths (and
   distances) become contracted.  The reason the ship's crew get to
   distance D so quickly is that for much of their voyage, distance D is
   not very far at all.  The ship sees stars, planets, and rocks
   slipping past them at speed v, which is the same speed that observers
   on those planets see the ship moving, so there is a symmetry between
   the two observers.  They also see lengths as being contracted, so in
   the ship's reference frame, those "spherical" planets are actually
   squashed up as oblate pancakes along the direction of motion.

   For a ship starting at rest, the speed it sees itself travelling is
   	v = c * tanh( A*t/c ),
   where "tanh" is the hyperbolic tangent, t is the time experienced by
   the ship's crew, and A is the ship's acceleration rating in m/s^2. 
   This formula is valid until the ship does its flip at midpoint, then
   it begins decelerating.

   The speed as seen by the planetary observers will be the same, but
   their time is not dialated, so they use a different equation:
   	v = c * sin( arctan(A*T/c) ),
   where T is the time which has passed on the planet.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 17:50:26 +0200
From: Nicolas LEJEUNE <nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr>
Subject: Re: Living expenses

Hans Rancke wrote:

>Are you saying that your budget dosent correspond to my figures unless the
>cerdit is worth a lot more than a dollar. That may well be. The figure I
>give is based on information I got from a few Americans some time ago and
>I can't vouch for them. In another posting someone suggests $3 per credit.
>Does that fit better? Anyway, what I was asking was whether the '1 part for
>food, 1 part for lodging, and 1 part for other expenses' fits your own
>budget. It fits mine and most of the dozen people I asked about it some
>years ago.

In my personnal case, living in a small but good standing flat 600Cr at a
rate of 2$ and, it's 1200$ not far from reality (lodging, food, heating,
phone, taxes...). But still a bit low.


>Perhaps you're living better than 'ordinary'? 'Good living' would cost
>Cr1200 per month and 'High living' anything from Cr1800 up.

Big towns might be considered as luxury even if you don't live in a luxury
environement. Cost of living is always high downtown than in small town or
suburbs (including food and lodging and even taxes)

In all cases lodging/food/other expenses is not 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 but more 2/3,
1/6, 1/6

As for 600Cr for the total
  400Cr at 2$ is near that for lodging in a 40m2 in Paris.
  100Cr for regular food (neither trash nor caviar) seems quite good 
  100Cr for phone, electricity, taxes, TV... is not far from reality

The overall is good, just the proportions may be slightly different, but
this is too detailed to be interesting during regular RPG. IMO, your system
is a good approximation.


But there are other cost which are not include : vehicle are very very
expensive (insurance, fuel, maint...). Using the 1/1000 ratio as starships
is unrealistic. It should 1/10 of the original price of the vehicle each
year for the regular expenses. This should vary with the taxes up to 1/5
(which is my case)

As most of "ordinary" people have one vehicle, such cost might be counted
in. Further more for weapons and other equipement.

You should had a percentage of the total owned equipement (inlcuding
vehicles) which have to be payed each month (let's say 1/100 per month).
This include regular fuel use for vehicles, bullets used for training...

If you just add the cost of unusual (adventures) action, it shouldn't be
far from the truth.


What do you think?


- -----------
Nicolas LEJEUNE
   Engineer, Paris, France
   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
   Mailto:nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr 
   Mailto:marben@worldnet.net (Week-end only!)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 09:17:15 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: FFS 2

Dave and Derek have submitted their manuscript for FFS2 to IG. (Congratulations!)

Now might be a good time for all of us who are interested in having it come
out *right* to write to IG and suggest a *long* playtest period - including
access to the combat system - rather than (as they seem likely to) rushing it
into print. THe authors worked incredibly hard, but they had far too little 
time, and there are bound to be things that were missed - especially since
the combat system didn't exist. People are going to be annoyed by this
anyway, since it isn't fully compatible with CSC/VDS - if IG wants to retain
customers they had better make sure everything *works*.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:26:02 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Sector Data (suggesting improvements(and something for CORE)

- -> > I am not sure how we should go about it...
- -> > As Marc proposed it, we should mail him so he could send us the data.
- -> > I already have it. There are some new problems with the data and we 
- -> > are supposed to fix them, look them over.
- -> > Maybe we should create a new list for this purpose, so we can discuss 
- -> > the data in detail without wasting TML-bandwidth...
- -> > Ken? MPGN? Anybody?
- -> 
- -> I don't think it's wasting all that much bandwidth. 
- -> 
- -> One thing I'd like to know is how "consistent" the data format is. If
- -> it's consistent enough, I'll try to get a copy and write a program that
- -> "sanity checks" the data. That'd be a case of looking for susopicious
- -> runs, and especially checking to see that the data is "legal" (ie law
- -> is *possible* given the pop and gov). 
I don't agree: 
Most of these sectors haven't been much more than scouted by the 3I, 
and i always felt that the basic System Generation rules were 
designed with the imperial background in mind. So, i wouldn't think 
it too weird if some weird and "officially Improssible" values come 
out from time to time. If they are commonplace however... but that's 
what we are supposed to check out, right?

- -> 
- -> If we can agree on what sort of tests to run, then IG can *have* a copy
- -> of the program. It'd be easier than counting on a human proofreader for
- -> all that data. Think of it as a "spell checker" for sectors.
Much more important is that those internal incosistancies with canon 
and established material are rubbed out.
Has anybody got the Travellers Digest issue in Vland? Any info on the 
local data? We should try to extrapolate the most imporant worlds 
from data already available. 

To the CORE people: Could we have access to YOUR Core sector? That 
way we can fix the faulty systems in no-time to have them jive with 
the M:0 book. Aditionally, there should be infos on Core sector in TD 
8,9,10. I have issue 9, i'll see if there's something useable in 
there...

Anybody have any info on Dlan, perhaps somewhere in the MT stuff? Did 
the Dlani society from which Dulinor came from already exist in M:0? 
If so, the data of Dlan should fit these infos. 

Carlos, how about you fixing the bits of Massilia?
Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:32:07 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Stargates

Hehe, the great conspirator strikes again!
There is a Stargate in Traveller, but it's so secret, not even 
published material mentioned it. It's an Ancient Artifact and no one 
but Strephon and those people that discovered it know about it.
It enables ships up to 500 tons to pass through and come out on the 
other end in no-time. 
The two ends are in DFGDFHDG(censored) and in vgkdfjhgkd(ditto). At 
one end vast amounts of working ancient weapons technology are 
hoarded.
Unfortunately it didn't help Strephon much since he couldn't get to 
it from Usdiki during the Rebellion, but now in TNE it's another 
story.Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:25:01 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: PE and JTAS 26

>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>At 07:37 AM 5/26/97 -0500, Joe wrote:
>>JTAS 26:  JTAS is now slick stock, with several color pages inside.  It's
>>still 48 pages.  Table of contents:
>>
>>4.  Contact: Suerrat, by John Snead
>>	This new Traveller race loves to cuddle pets and doesn't mind a
>>	few acts of carefully planned terrorism.

>Nice to see this get published.

        Hmmmm.... yes, but it's a pity that now, all the excellent work that
Joseph "Chepe" Lockett did on this race and posted here on the TML, is
invalidated. I thought John Snead was around on the TML... I hope he warned
Joseph about this.

        BTW, one thing I REALLY LIKE ABOUT IG: I received PE two days ago,
by Global Priority Mail. Taking into account that my T4 Harcover delayed for
months, this is really quick for delivery in Europe.

        OTOH, I haven't still received JTAS 26. How was that signature,
again? "Be patient or be a patient"? ;-)
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:36:19 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: M:0/FS Sector data

- -> I have just recieved my copy of the amended Sector data from Marc this 
- -> morning, overall, a very good redo. Here are my first impressions.
I agree.
- -> I see some Scout Bases, but NO Naval Bases.  Are there Naval bases in Year 
- -> 0?
Hmm, hadn't seen that yet, but will check it out. If so, this bug 
will have to be reported to MM.
 
- -> Here's a strange one, doing a text find in Word, I discovered 2 VLANDS! yes 
- -> theres another 'Vland' in Fornast sector.  Hex #0340  B260951-8.
That's what happens when a random word generator is used ;-)

- -> With regards to major Worlds (Sylea, Vland, etc...)  TML  or perhaps IRC 
- -> could be a good place to discuss this.  My solution is keep the original M:0 
- -> Sylea, and downgrade Vland from 1100 to 0, but making sure the TL is 9(or a 
- -> low TL 10?) as is stated in M:0.
I felt that the pop of syslea and the other 3I Hi-Pop world was way 
too high. Maybe they should be reduced by one or two digits? Comments?
Vland: TL to Zero, and check the Pop. 
 Ad Astra,

V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 12:37:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: pierre-louis constantin <Pierre-Louis.Constantin@DMI.USherb.CA>
Subject: Casualties (no typoes! :)

hi again!
 
I pretty much shot myself in the foot when I said the philosophy
would be to "keep them FIGHTING till they're a puddle"... That
certainly WOULDN'T make it into the recruitment litterature :)
 
To the soldiers it would be something like "Our advanced battle dress
technologies let you retaliate even when pinned down, letting you
clear the ennemies so help and supplies can get to you faster!"
 
	The idea wouldn't (originally) be to push the soldiers past
the breaking point, but to help them maintain at least a good
defensive capability even if they're gravely wounded, so that there
is something left when the medics do get there.  Playing dead
probably won't be a good idea when technology allows an ennemy to
scans your lifesigns from 100 meters away, so you want to be able to
kick back even when you're down.  Unless of course you don't want to
kill but only cause extreme wounds so the wounded soldier is a drain
on the ennemy's resources.  
 
	This is where the 'portable emergency low berth' comes in -
it would MINIMIZE the ressources needed for a wounded soldier by
putting him in statis till he's far away from the battlefield, where
the resources are to help him out, so he's not such a big drain.
 
	Also, note that not wanting to be treated like a robot is a
HUMAN reaction.  It's sensible to assume that it's the same for all
other sentients, but who knows...  After all, warrior droynes
basically live for combat, so why expect to live through a battle?
What matters is to save the family...
 
	But of course there would always be abuse and generals who
'waste' their soldiers stupidly.  Hmm...  I suppose it wouldn't be
such a rare occurence for 'green' troops who don't really know what's
going on.
 

- -- 
Pierre-Louis Constantin, ift. a. 	"He whose name was writ in E-mail."
(: "I hate fanatics with a passion; all extremists should be shot." :)
	    How's my surfing? http://www.dmi.usherb.ca/~constanp/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:49:01 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Sector Data

- -> > Maybe we should create a new list for this purpose, so we can discuss 
- -> >  the data in detail without wasting TML-bandwidth...
- -> >  Ken? MPGN? Anybody?
- -> 
- -> Isn't this what this list is about? Discussing Traveller and what it does,
- -> how it plays, what it should do? I don't think you are wasting bandwidth when
- -> you snip a world UWP from the file and show it along with what you think it
- -> should do.
Sure is Marc, but some people not interested in this Thread might get 
angry about "having to download stuff they are not interested in". We 
had lots of arguments about this. I favor an open discussion as well, 
but was trying to be considerate of other opinions (It's become so 
easy to offend people on the TML these days, so i thought, better be 
careful with my suggestions,-secretly hoping enough people would 
contradict me so the discussion can start.)

Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 19:10:47 +0200
From: Per Bernhardsson <bard@ludd.luth.se>
Subject: Re: "Smart" guns

Mark Urbin wrote:
> 
>   Of course, the cops would be carrying a 'backup/throwaway' lacking any
> such gizmos.  Do I have to mention that the crooks would have 'em too?  :-)

Since these would be highly illegal, the punishment of even carrying one
of these would be quite severe, which would deter most people from
carrying one.

 / Per

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 21:07:42 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re:FF&S Playtesters Info

>Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net> wrote

>Has anyone playtested the New FF&S from Guy and Dave yet? I must have
>responded to late to get it. I would like to ask some questions about it.

That makes you the third person I know of who responded but didn't get it.
They must have been swamped! And me with a new graphics calculator to try
out! :-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Feel the guilt / like shackles round your feet / like a halo in reverse"
                     Depeche Mode "Violator"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1375
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, May 28 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1376



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Jump/Casualities long
Re: Sector Data
Re: Living expenses
Re: Sector Data
Re: Jump troops
Hello to all traveller fans
Re: Starports
How much for a starport?...
Two Vlands
Re: FS/M0 Data
"Smart Guns"
RE: Stargates
Re: FS/M0 Data
Pocket Empires ideas
Re: Meson Radiation
Lookin' for hex map
First Thoughts On Marc's FS Data

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 12:37:06 -0500
From: tim Reynolds <tim@valhalla.gpasf.com>
Subject: Jump/Casualities long

I stuck these together they just seemed to fit. 


 Brett Fishburne says

>Whew! Hot topic. I am amazed by the ideas flying around. Let's see if I
>can (intelligently) respond to some of the questions/statements..
>Yep, light infantry would be chewed up by even mechanized forces, let
>alone grav tanks. You get around this by either a) only holding enough
>real estate for the anti-tank teams to arrive from orbit or b) not
>letting them find you (i.e., being a small, fast unit that leaves soon).
>- -If you are planning to invade a planet with deep meson sites and you
>drop jump troop, the smart money is on the fact that they will assault
>at least one of the meson sites - this makes the whole invasion MUCH


I have to agree and and disagree with, Brett.   He is right that a Jump
Infantry would be used for a holding action or raid type mission.  But I
cant agree that they would be chewed up, messed up yes and not very happy
but they could do their mission for two reasons.  1) The element of surprise
would mean that they would face only light resistance and  unorganized
counter attacks.  This would allow them to hold their objectives until
relived.  2) Technology would also play a major role by 3rd Imperium  man
portable plamsa weapons and other heavy support weapons will be aviable.
Even our 21 centary war program are developing such weapons.
>
>
>Bruce Johnson
 hits the nail on the head

>If I knew that I was expected to fight until I was blown apart, and that if
>I faltered, my equipment would keep me slogging in harm's way, I wouldn't
>do shit more than I had to, and that would require an engraved invitation
>from the Commanding General.
>
>hen they'd go and frag the society that treated them as mere expendables
>like ammunition.
>
>I can't think of a better way to incite mutiny, short of serving
>spam....again.
>


Dito here I cant see fighting until my suit blows up as a good way to fight.
I would want to know that my live can and WILL be saved.  

Leonard Erickson says
>
>Only trouble is, any planet with decent spasce capability is going to
>detect this *at least* 10-100 light seconds out. That's several *days*.
>They'll either send a ship to nudge it into a non-intercept course, or,
>because it is so small, blast it into chunks.

Lastly I would like to point out that on the first page of the Chapter
covering Travell in space in T4 it states that time to save jump point is 5
hrs at 1G for a size 8 planet.  Thats like 2.2 hrs at 6G.  so actualy if
planned right a Jump infantry transport will only give the planet what 3.5
hrs to get ready.  Also you have to assume that other ships with jammers and
other electronic and decoy ships will come in at the same speed to confuse
the enemy as to which one was the actual Transport.

This would also help the Jump Infentary on the ground see above.

>


Tim Reynolds
Strategic Forecasting
tim@valhalla.gpasf.com(work)
tim@premier.net(home)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:34:55 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Sector Data

>In mail Shadow writes:
>
>> I already have it.

Lucky.  He has not mailed a copy to me yet.

>I don't think it's wasting all that much bandwidth. 

Or I.  Especially if we limit our online examples to small numbers of UWPs,
and the hex numbers that have that kind of problem.  Perhaps we should put
a "collected changes" document somewhere, though?

On second thought, I suspect that most people will either have automatic
data scavengers, or will do a small number of places by hand.  The small
number of places would likely not take up much list traffic, and would
certainly make interesting reading.

>One thing I'd like to know is how "consistent" the data format is. If
>it's consistent enough, I'll try to get a copy and write a program that
>"sanity checks" the data. That'd be a case of looking for susopicious
>runs, and especially checking to see that the data is "legal" (ie law
>is *possible* given the pop and gov). 

Would be nice, and I am glad someone has started to write such a thing.  I
am still trying to decide a good "grid square" format that knows all
sectors so I can do multi-sector maps.

>If we can agree on what sort of tests to run, then IG can *have* a copy
>of the program. It'd be easier than counting on a human proofreader for
>all that data. Think of it as a "spell checker" for sectors.

Consider adding the ability to check whether you have a high tech scrunge
world near a low tech paradise.  This would involve some kind of clustering
algorithm, but would be really handy.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:46:03 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Living expenses

At 03:15 PM 5/28/97 +0200, you wrote:
>David J. Golden writes:
>>>...average, ordinary living can be had for Cr600 per month (This is based 
>>>on the assumption that roughly the same amount of money is used on food, 
>>>lodging, and basic necessities. Check your budget. Dosen't it fit fairly 
>>>well?).
>> 
>>	Err ... no. Unless a Cr is worth significantly more than a US$.
>
>Are you saying that your budget doesn't correspond to my figures unless the
>credit is worth a lot more than a dollar. That may well be.

1Cr=$3 seems about right for the living expenses given in the book, more or
less.  I get an economic distribution that works acceptably, if not
wonderfully, if each SS level represents about a 10% drop in income from
the previous level, with SS7 being 8-12KCr.  I get a better one by using
World Bank economic figures, which I could repost if anyone is interested.

Note that the income distribution today is skewed a bit, in that the top
1/36th are making something like 20 times the bottom 1/36th, and there is a
very flat middle, so the range is really narrow.  More details are
available if you want them.

>...Anyway, what I was asking was whether the '1 part for
>food, 1 part for lodging, and 1 part for other expenses' fits your own
>budget. It fits mine and most of the dozen people I asked about it some
>years ago.

This is not far from how I live.  We figured that other expenses should be
between a third and a half of total spending in our game.

>>>Back in 1779 one credit was worth about one US dollar. Today it is
closer to 
>>>between 1.5 and 2 dollars.
>>	Err ... closer but still not. Even if I were renting instead of 
>>buying a house, the rental market in this area is so high I'd be paying 
>>about the same.
>Perhaps you're living better than 'ordinary'? 'Good living' would cost
>Cr1200 per month and 'High living' anything from Cr1800 up.

Cr600/month = Cr7200/Yr, which is about a quarter of the US average, and is
not enough to survive out here.  It is possible that everyone near here is
at Good status, but I would have expected something closer to 20-30KCr as
average living in this area.  I am open to debate, as Traveller does not
define what they mean by average living in 20th Century terms.  (c.f.
Poverty at TL12 in M0)

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:49:02 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Sector Data

At 11:24 AM 5/28/97 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 97-05-27 13:48:39 EDT, you write:
>
>> Maybe we should create a new list for this purpose, so we can discuss 
>>  the data in detail without wasting TML-bandwidth...
>>  Ken? MPGN? Anybody?
>
>Isn't this what this list is about? Discussing Traveller and what it does,
>how it plays, what it should do? I don't think you are wasting bandwidth when
>you snip a world UWP from the file and show it along with what you think it
>should do.

Let me strengthen what I said a few minutes ago - I would like to see how
people adjust a given UWP to fit "reality."  I suspect I would learn from it.

BTW, Marc, are you willing to change stellar classifications?  I have not
gotten the data yet, so I am figuring out what I want to do with it. <g>

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 19:51:39 +0300
From: "Hakan Koseoglu" <hkose@rorqual.cc.metu.edu.tr>
Subject: Re: Jump troops

> And what about using higher accel for the 5 minutes? Note that you
> don't really hit atmosphere until less that 1000 km. 
For earth, this is not quite accurate in my opinion. You do not hit
atmosphere until less than 200 km. Typical Shuttle operations are
performed at about 450 km altitude. Many spy sattelites operate well under
200 km and can operate for at least half a month. Minimum practical limit
is about 180 km where atmosphere friction definitely makes a problem in
long term.

Therefore you can have much higher speed, wasting all the energy in the
atmosphere with 1 g, if you use propulsion, much faster but you have to
have much better heat shields because heat developed will be tremendous.

Also if you are entering atmosphere from orbit, you will have a very very
great horizontal speed which would cause you to travel quite a distance
parallel to surface until you waste that energy as friction, thus heat.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:38:46
From: Pedro Arnal Puente <parnal@lince.lander.es>
Subject: Hello to all traveller fans

Hello all

I have been reading the list for about two weeks with great delight. Being
a years long MT and CT fan I enjoy quite a lot of the discussions going on it.

I hope all this reading could help me find time for finishing the MT
campaign I'm preparing since i first bought the game.

I read you soon!!!

PS: special handshake to Carlos Alos from the people who currently play
with or around PJ in Pamplona.
...Win95: Chorrada o no, usted decide.

*Saludos Mercenarios. Pedro Arnal Puente*
*Internet: parnal@lander.es**************
*http://www.lander.es/%7Eparnal/*********

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:41:57
From: Pedro Arnal Puente <parnal@lince.lander.es>
Subject: Re: Starports

At 17:58 28/05/97 +0200, you wrote:
>Quoth Marc Miller:
>
>>	E. Frontier starport. With no facilities, the installation is little more
>>than a flat expanse of bedrock and a sign. This designation effectively
means
>>there is no starport.
>
>        So, is this the ultimate fix for the absence of X starports in first
>Survey? The "X" and "E" starports are merged, and called "E"?
>
>        Carlos
>
>

It's really official, or canon, in T4 the dissapearing of X starports.

I tought E starports being simply a more o less plain field with a
rudimentary microwave or radio bearing system. And X being the 'land on
your own'.


...Win95: Chorrada o no, usted decide.

*Saludos Mercenarios. Pedro Arnal Puente*
*Internet: parnal@lander.es**************
*http://www.lander.es/%7Eparnal/*********

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 16:27:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Subject: How much for a starport?...

Someone mentioned that the price of establishing a starport was printed in
the "Hard Times" supplement.  I have been unable to find this info in my
copy.  Would the person who has this info please tell me what page
number(s) this info is on?  Thank you.

Franklin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 97 16:24:03 -0400
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: Two Vlands

>Here's a strange one, doing a text find in Word, I discovered 2 VLANDS! yes 
>theres another 'Vland' in Fornast sector.  Hex #0340  B260951-8.

There are two Arvid in Old Expanses, one in M subsector and one up in C
or B.  I figure its just like there about a dozen cities named
Springfield in the US. Also people in New England (Northeast area of
the US) stole lots of names for their towns from back home in jolly old England.

Lewis Roberts
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Q:Why does an elephant have a trunk?
A:So that it has someplace to hide when it sees a mouse.        
 
lewis@chara.gsu.edu
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 17:05:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: FS/M0 Data

> From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
> 
> I have just recieved my copy of the amended Sector data from Marc this 
> morning, overall, a very good redo. Here are my first impressions.

The columns are in a different order from the DGP data...
much silly software tweaking I must do. Otherwise, it's great.

> I see some Scout Bases, but NO Naval Bases.  Are there Naval bases in Year 
> 0?

ant     0605    Nerim Gaa.      E336000-2       Ba      N       003             M2 V

Isn't that a Naval base?

> Here's a strange one, doing a text find in Word, I discovered 2 VLANDS! yes 
> theres another 'Vland' in Fornast sector.  Hex #0340  B260951-8.

Whoops. :)

> Those are the only bugs I have discovered, so far :)

There's no column for travel zones, like there was in the old
DGP data... are there red/amber zones in M:0?

Otherwise, a very useful resource... I'm going to ask Marc to 
put a 'Zone' column back in.

Ethan

- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 17:33:42 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: "Smart Guns"

>From: Per Bernhardsson <bard@ludd.luth.se>
>Mark Urbin wrote:
>>   Of course, the cops would be carrying a 'backup/throwaway' lacking any
>> such gizmos.  Do I have to mention that the crooks would have 'em too?  :-)
>Since these would be highly illegal, the punishment of even carrying one
>of these would be quite severe, which would deter most people from
>carrying one.

  ROTFLMAO!  It would deter the average "honest" Imperial citizen.  That is
not whom I was refering to.  I was refering to "Law Enforcement Officers"
and "Career Criminals".

  When was the last time a cop got busted on a weapons charge?  How many
cops carried unregistered guns ("On the Badge") in areas with severe
penaties for unregistered ownership?  

  For the crooks, it's a tool needed to conduct their trade.  The
penalities for assault, robbery, grand theft air/raft, etc. are already
high enough to "deter most people."  Tacking a weapons charge on top is
moot.  Besides, that assumes:  1.  You get caught, 2. You leave witnesses,
3. Witnesses will testify after your buddies take out his "insert family
member" with a hopped up Thud gun, 4 through a very large positive integer
left as an exercise...

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
"The Court declares that Cyber Promotions does not have a right under the
First Amendment to the United States Constitution [...] to send unsolicited 
email advertisements over the Internet..." said Judge Charles R. Weiner, of 
the U.S. Court for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania, in his ruling,
November 4, 1996
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 14:35:00 -0700
From: Jeff Cornish <JCornish@appiangraphics.com>
Subject: RE: Stargates

>-----Original Message-----
>From:	Nicolas LEJEUNE [SMTP:nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr]
>Sent:	Wednesday, May 28, 1997 4:48 AM
>To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
>Subject:	Re: Stargates
>
>Michael wrote:
>
>[All descriptions snipped]
>
>Interesting. But I have  a few questions and remarks
>
>
>>Exotic Material
>>Material that has a negative average energy density, as measured by
>>someone moving through it at nearly the speed of light.  Commonly used for
>>Stargate construction, it can be naturally found around the horizion of a
>>Black Hole.
>
>What is (or would be) the main different property of this materials.
>
>[Jeff Cornish]  Exotic matter has a _negative energy density_ -- that means
>it has a net gravitational _REPULSION_.  Big difference than normal matter
>(positive or anti-).  As a result you can make the perfect stardrive with a
>few chunks of exotic matter and normal matter.  If you put the exotic matter
>near the front of your spaceship, it is repelled away, but your ship is
>attracted to it.  Without any input of power you find yourself being pulled
>along.  Magic.
>
>However, if exotic matter comes into contact with normal matter, they
>dissappear.  Unlike matter and anti-matter, which will release E=2*mc^2
>annihlating, Exotic matter (-E=-mc^2) plus (E=mc^2) equals zero.  Very
>anticlimatic.
>
>>Hand Waving
>>-----------
>>For compatibility with Traveller I have added the following to my Stargate
>>FTL travel system;
>>
>>*No wormhole can be longer than 6 parsecs
>>*All wormholes take a given amount of time to travel - 1week -/+ 10%
>>*Those travelling through the wormhole are completely cut off from the
>>normal universe.
>>
>>To be honest I dont like these ideas at all, as they dont mesh with the
>>whole wormhole concept, but for Traveller its fine.  If I was creating my
>>own Universe from scratch, I would defintely not have the above two.
>
>I agree, those ideas don't serve your background well. This wormholes and
>stargats need an alternate universe.
>
>
>>If I had my way, I would probably make all the wormholes one length.
>>Also, using this concept of wormhole's Xboats would become much less
>>important, as messges could be transmitted through the wormhole via
>>the gate.
>
>Yes it would be interesting that all tunnels had different caracteristics
>(required energy, lenth, travel time, misjump probability...)
>
>
>
>
>There are other more important consequences. To close interstellar traffic,
>you just have to "unplug" the stargate generator. 
>
>This mean that military conflicts should be very rare or very different
>from those in Traveller. IMO this is the main difference from the
>(so-called) Canon.
>
>Further as you've said the intallation of such devices would be very long
>and expensive . You cannot connect an unvisited system until you send a
>ship by normal space. This should take a long time. Are there many
>companies which would spend billions credits of inverstment, hundred years
>before the first income. This seems financially very risky! Maybe some new
>technology would allow new way of starfarring. Or maybe the world would not
>be interested in starfarring in 100 years!
>
>
>IMO, if a univers with such devices exists, I wouldn't build too many of
>them. I would not create a 10.000+ worlds univers like Traveller. I would
>create 10-20 worlds with different original races on each. Interstellar
>wars would be nearly inexistent or more like commando, terrorism or black
>operations. This RPG would rely moslty on diplomatic and economic activity. 
>
>Interesting but very different from Traveller, not because of the
>technology but because of what you can or cannot do with this technology.
>-----------
>Nicolas LEJEUNE
>   Engineer, Paris, France
>   Traveller (TNE), and WhiteWolf RPG
>   Mailto:nlejeune@suresnes.marben.fr 
>   Mailto:marben@worldnet.net (Week-end only!)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 17:44:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: FS/M0 Data

ile 3209    Gimem . E7AA8DH-5   Wa      200     M3 V

Uh, what's that 'H' at the end of the UWP??? A law level of 'H'??
(That is Law level, isn't it?)

Ethan

- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 16:48:57 -0500
From: Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com>
Subject: Pocket Empires ideas

I picked up a copy of PE the other day, and I must say I found it quite
good. Personally, I would have liked to have seen the tables in-line
with the text of the chapters, but I can see the advantage of having
them all in one place for ease of reference later. 

	A couple of thoughts:

1) Given that there is no real advantage to building J1 drives at any
tech higher than TL9, or J2 drives above TL11, why not use J1/J2 drives
from your lower tech worlds in your ship designs? If, from what I can
tell about currency exchange in Traveller, there is a significant
difference in price as measured by some baseline currency, are there any
rules about mixed tech purchases in PE that I haven't gotten to yet?
This also may be important in THUDDD competitions as well, where
contractors purchase reliable but lower TL equipment for installation in
their designs, at reduced cost.

2) Naval exercises for spacefleets: it is common practice for armed
forces to play mock engagements against members of their own forces, or
with those of friendly nations. I had a couple of ideas on how this
might work:

	-replace the warhead of missles with a short range tight beam
laser/maser communicator, programmed to pulse at the point where a real
missle would have detonated. Hits would be determined by the target's
passive sensors; damage could be extrapolated by computer and beamed to
the coordinating vessel(s). Dummy "sensor readings" could then be sent
to the firing ship to give it an idea of what sort of effect the shot
had. Meanwhile, the missle would turn on a homing beacon, decelerate if
possible, and await recovery. It could then be refeuled and reused.

	-lasers could be downpowered to communicator levels, and rate of fire
would be arificially governed. Hits would be determined above; coherency
would be maintained by the usual gravitic focusing (if you buy into the
idea that the gravitic pulse would cause sounds to be produced in the
target vessel via compressions, you could add really cool SFX as well).
damage would be handled as above.

	-other beam weapons could be handled by installing additional tightbeam
communicators.

	This would allow real combat to be fairly effectively modeled, and
using tighbeam commms would not only cut dowm on comm traffic clutter
which might not be present during a real battle, but allow for
coordinating vessel(s) to maintain a sense of the fog-of-war.

3) It becomes feasible (and even a little ingenious) for the highest
tech planets to produce vessels with J1 or J2, built to grapple a
squadron of SDBs (of equal or lower TL) and ferry them into battle at
distant locations. This would provide a rather slick way of reinforcing
blockades or securing claims.

Thoughts?

Ryan
litefoot@feist.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 16:53:10 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Meson Radiation

On Tue, 27 May 1997, Merrick Burkhardt wrote:

>  
> > >Then there's nothing to worry about as the meson gun doesn't make
> > >things radioactive. The only radiation is *as* it goes off. 
> > >
> > 	My mistake then.  I was under the assumption that when exposed to
> > radiation parts of the starship's hull and internal components would absorb
> > a certain amount of the radiation causing them to become radioactive.  I
> > guess I was thinking more along the lines of radiation sickness.  Sorry for
> > misunderstanding.
> 
> This isn't the case in radiation sickness either.  Radiation
> sickness is caused by ionizing radiation---the gamma and x-ray
> photons basically blow molecules apart by knocking off the electrons
> that hold the atoms together.  When this happens within a cell,
> things get rather nasty :-)
> 
> The only way things become radioactive really is if they absorb
> radioactive materials.  So if you eat some veggies with dust on them
> and the dust is itself radioactive, you now have radioactive
> material in your gut.  The radiation doesn't make your gut
> radioactive, though, it just wreaks cells.
> 
> Capturing sub-atomic particles within a given atom could transmute
> it to an unstable isotope (ie: making it radioactive) but it doesn't
> factor into what people typically describe as radiation exposure
> (you'd be long dead of ionizing stuff before transmutation of your
> atoms made significant portions of you actually radioactive).
> 
Now, the original poster has a point, what is different about a meson
explosion and a nuclear reactor that the explosion fails to "irradiate"
the material surrounding it and the reactor does?

Is this also true for nuclear missile warheads?

How about particle accelerators?

Inquiring minds want to know!

Incidentially, back in the days when I knew less about these things, ships
disabled by Nuke missiles in my game were effectively unusable until a
vessel with a nuclear damper arrived on the scene (something common in
naval vessels over 5000 tons or so).  I assumed the period required was
longer than "game time" would allow.

Pete   

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:51:31 -0700
From: Jeff Cornish <JCornish@appiangraphics.com>
Subject: Lookin' for hex map

or rather just the blank map paper, a decent jpeg or postscript file of
such.

The MT Referee's Companion contains a sector hexmap on page 86, however
it is missing hex numbers and the subsector borders are broken.  Does
anyone know of such an animal?

I'll create my own if I have to, but pushing the hexes into alignment is
always a pain.

Thanks in advance!

Jeffrey Cornish

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:00:26 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: First Thoughts On Marc's FS Data

Well, I finally got Marc's FS data imported into my spreadsheet program
(don't ask _me_ for it: he's the guy with the copyright), so it both looks
nice and I can play with searching and analyzing it to my heart's content. 
I've deleted the data for Delphi, Fornast, and Zarushagar sectors since,
as referee preserves, they're beyond our purview.  That leaves some 4562
worlds under consideration.

Knowing that at least the physical portions of the data probably date from
MegaTraveller days, I thought I'd do a quick check versus the suggestions
found in Mark "Geo" Gelinas' article "Notes on Collapsing Worlds" in
Challenge #77, which also address making stellar types, etc. correspond
more to our current knowledge of astrophysics, stellar populations, and
general reason.  (Hey, is Geo still around on the list?)  Sure enough,
most of them haven't been done for this set of data and, though the
suggestions are probably open to argument as a TNE-ism, I think they'd be
useful changes.

Gelinas recommends that all D-spectrum primaries (white dwarfs) become
type V instead, except perhaps for some vacuum-planets that could
reasonably be described as "cinder" planets circling such burnt-out stars.
366 stars in the existing data need to have this issue addressed.  My next
project will be to try to use multiple search parameters to find which
ones might be justified in keeping the white dwarfs.

Spectral class VI is apparently no longer considered valid: it was applied
in error to what have now been identified as metal-poor Population II
stars from the galactic halo.  186 worlds are listed as circling class-VI
stars, and should probably be changed to class V.

Apparently, star types K5IV through K9IV and all MIV types do not exist.
I find no MIV stars in the remaining data (there were some in Zarushagar,
et al.), but 15 late-KIV types that should be changed to class-V.

Next, a few persnickety and purely aesthetic comments.  I'm a great fan
(both for its layout and machine-readability advantages) of keeping trade
codes to two letters, but the FS data implements "Ind," "Ast," "LoPop",
and "HiPop" for the old "In," "As," "Lo," and "Hi" (Industrial, Asteroid,
Low-Population, and High-Population, for you newbies tuning in here).  I
might support a wholesale move to three-letter codes, but I think mingling
them looks a bit ugly.

Some trade codes also seem to be redundant: I see several occurences of
"Ast" and "Va" (are any asteroid belts _not_ vacuum worlds?), and of "Po"
with "Ba" (which may or may not be redundant, depending on what you think
the "Poor" classification should indicate).  Gelinas strongly recommends
that Barren worlds be changed to TL0, which also needs to be performed for
this data set.

And while I'm frolicing at the tail-end of the UPP -- how politically-
neutral should the FS data be?  Should type-6 ("captive") governments have
the owning planet listed?  Should allegiance codes be generated and
included, at least for pocket empires already mentioned or considered for
development?  (League of Antares, Geonee, Suerrat, etc.)?

Some of my next projects, I suspect, unless somebody beats me to the punch
(which they're welcome to do -- I don't have time to perform all these
checks myself, though they're fun to consider):

	* Find frequencies of stellar types and correlate with modern
	    astronomical observations: how authentically random is the
	    distribution?
	* Check proportions of UPP stats.  Gelinas' article includes
	    annotation by Dave Nilsen pointing out how broken some of the
	    DPG data really was (Zarushagar was a wise sector to exclude,
	    since it seems one of the worst offenders).  Do any of the
	    remaining FS sectors need to have the physical stats redone?
	* Find frequences of various starports, and consider in light of
	    Milieu:0 background and history.  Any changes to be done here?
	* Find all occurences of zero population (with zero stat in the
	    population multiplier and "Barren" trade classification) and
	    assemble them to be changed to TL0.  Is it reasonable to allow
	    for high-tech enclaves of fewer than ten people, or should we
	    presume all such were either wiped out by the Long Night or
	    haven't yet been established in the Imperial expansion?
	* Choose likely candidates to be "owners" of Gov-6 worlds.
	* Correlate rough positions for Droyne & Chirper worlds given in
	    Alien Module 5 with those in the FS data.  This is an overly
	    picky point, and could probably be skipped.
	* Consider historical information about Vilani, Sylea, etc. and
	    ensure that world stats (Shudusham, etc.) match history.

Again, this is all just stuff I'm considering independently and over the
data set as a whole.  I've volunteered for the various grass-roots efforts
that have been proposed on the list, and would be happy to reduce my
efforts to a single sector or so in cooperation with a larger force.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1376
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 29 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1377



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Genetics Errors
Re: PE and JTAS 26
Smartguns
Re: jump troops
Re:Smart Guns
Re: Stargates
Re: Jump/Casualities long
Pod logo
Speed, Relativity & such
SECTOR DATA/Web Site
Re: Starports
Re: Lookin' for hex map
Re: FS/M0 Data
Re: FS/M0 Data
First Survey Spectrography
Re: Speed, Relativity & such
Re: Meson Radiation
Re: Smartguns
Re: smart guns
FS-Data Starport Distribution
re:Jump/Casualties

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:31:08 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Genetics Errors

On Wed, 28 May 1997, John R. Snead wrote:

I never heard of this supermale theory, how does it go?

Do supposedly naturally occuring overly aggresive/strong males exist?

> Glen Grant wrote:
> 
> >The convicts in the (truly awful) movie _Aliens 3_ were XYY 'supermales'
> >who had been put on the prison colony because of their overly aggressive
> >tendencies. Prison populations do indeed have a far higher percentage of
> >XYY men than the general population.
> 
> Actually, this is a very persistent (but wholly untrue) myth.  The history
> of US popular biology is full of massive amounts of misinformation about
> genetics.  The XYY "Supermale" idea originated in the early 50s and has
> been cropping up ever since.  The initial study was done with an extremely
> small sample size and was disproved shortly thereafter. 
> 
> Biological determinism (of which the XYY myth is an example) may be
> popular in some (conservative) circles, but evidence for it is still
> nonexistent. 
> <end rant>
> 
> -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com
> 
> 
> 
> 


PaChi,

Michael

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


Meisetsu
THE ONLY TRACE
The travelling monk has vanished in the mists; but
still his little silver bell persists.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 16:21:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: PE and JTAS 26

Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>

>>>4.  Contact: Suerrat, by John Snead
>>>      This new Traveller race loves to cuddle pets and doesn't mind a
>>>      few acts of carefully planned terrorism.
>>Nice to see this get published.
>        Hmmmm.... yes, but it's a pity that now, all the excellent work that
>Joseph "Chepe" Lockett did on this race and posted here on the TML, is
>invalidated. I thought John Snead was around on the TML... I hope he 
>warned Joseph about this.

Rather impossible actually, I submitted this article last July.  Ken
Whitman promptly lost it, so I resubmitted it in February after talking to
Courtney Solomon. 

The main difference is that I used the old Digest Group data on the
Ilelish system, so the primary is an M0 star.  I ignored the dwarf status
of the star becasue it made no sense whatsoever.  An M0 White dwarf has a
radius of around 27,000 km, a surface temperature of 2,700 K, and a
luminosity over 30,000 times less than the sun.  No way to have a hibtable
planet around such a star, and yet, we were told that Ilelish was a lush
jungle world.  In an effort to make sense of the situation, but to make as
few changes as possible, I simply made the primary a main sequence M0
star. 


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 19:34:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Smartguns

Subject: smart guns

>Material about firearms requiring a surgically implanted transponder in the
user's finger in order to function deleted > 

> I leave further creative sparks on this matter to you. =)

OK. Two tweaks:

1: If somebody _without_ a transponder chip pulls the trigger, instead of
firing, it flips forward and traps the culprit's finger against the trigger
guard, and, simultaneously,

2: sets off a really loud and really annoying siren/strobe light in the
gun-butt.

Loren Wiseman
    GDW Emeritus

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:50:57 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: jump troops

On 28 May 1997, Jeffery M. Miller wrote:

hehehe oops :)  but the metaphor still holds, replace "paltry" with
"chicken feed" ;-)


> --- Michael wrote:
> The expense of losing well trained reusable elite forces as
> opposed to equiping them with the best is a poultry sum.
> --- end of quote ---
> Does this imply it counts as chicken feed?  and all this time I thought the
> word was 'paltry'... ;->
> 


PaChi,

Michael

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


Meisetsu
THE ONLY TRACE
The travelling monk has vanished in the mists; but
still his little silver bell persists.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:48:23 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re:Smart Guns

On Wed, 28 May 1997, Scott & Isabell wrote:

[snip]

This is *very* interesting technology.  But what would prevent an
assailant taking the ring as well?  Sure it would slow him down, but a
downed police man would be not great adversary.

Also, I remember many years back I saw two interesting weapons on TV, the
rights to the weapons were then purchased by respective countries
Military, and never seen again;

The first was a plastic gun built by a Dutch firm.  Accept for the
bullets, it had no metal in it what so ever.

The other, more interesting "weapon" was a non motorised exoskeleton legs
designed by an American inventor.  It would allow a human to run twcie as
fast and twice as far using the same amount of energy.  It was a strange
looking device, it added about 2 feet to the height of a human.  When it 
was used, the run looked quite funny, a combination of a normal human
stance and a sort of Kangaroo mini-hop.

An "add on" for the legs was a full exoskeleton apparatus (once again not
motorised) that would allow for heavy lifting.  The American Military
showed a lot of interest in it, as it could be used to build "armour"
around it.  Ever since then, my view of what Battledress would look like
has changed - I have this picture of hundreds of tall, heavily armoured
men running/bouncing into battle.

Also, the weapon used in "5th element" where the bullets would "seek" out
the target, how likely is this sort of technology?  Another old 70's
sci-fi had a similiar weapon.

[snip]
> 
> Also have a news paper article on an Australian designed VERY rapid fire
> machine gun. So far tested at 45,000 to 135,00 rounds per minute, the
> phalanx equivalent would fire at ten million. If any one is interested let
> me know and I'll post it.

I would be interested in more info, even privately.

PaChi,

Michael

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


Meisetsu
THE ONLY TRACE
The travelling monk has vanished in the mists; but
still his little silver bell persists.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:55:53 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Stargates

On Wed, 28 May 1997, Volker A. Greimann wrote:

Damn Templars!

:)

> Hehe, the great conspirator strikes again!
> There is a Stargate in Traveller, but it's so secret, not even 
> published material mentioned it. It's an Ancient Artifact and no one 
> but Strephon and those people that discovered it know about it.
> It enables ships up to 500 tons to pass through and come out on the 
> other end in no-time. 
> The two ends are in DFGDFHDG(censored) and in vgkdfjhgkd(ditto). At 
> one end vast amounts of working ancient weapons technology are 
> hoarded.
> Unfortunately it didn't help Strephon much since he couldn't get to 
> it from Usdiki during the Rebellion, but now in TNE it's another 
> story.Ad Astra,
> 
> V.A.G.       
> ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
> -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
> --- http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 ---
> ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --
> -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----
> 
> 


PaChi,

Michael

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


Meisetsu
THE ONLY TRACE
The travelling monk has vanished in the mists; but
still his little silver bell persists.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:04:15 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Jump/Casualities long

On Wed, 28 May 1997, tim Reynolds wrote:

[snip]
> I have to agree and and disagree with, Brett.   He is right that a Jump
> Infantry would be used for a holding action or raid type mission.  But I
> cant agree that they would be chewed up, messed up yes and not very happy
> but they could do their mission for two reasons.  1) The element of surprise
> would mean that they would face only light resistance and  unorganized
> counter attacks.  This would allow them to hold their objectives until
> relived.  2) Technology would also play a major role by 3rd Imperium  man
> portable plamsa weapons and other heavy support weapons will be aviable.
> Even our 21 centary war program are developing such weapons.

hmm, but if the attacker has such weaposn available, and all things being
equal, then the defender would to, and the defender would have more - ie
the JTroopers are toast.

*Unless*, they are a premptive attack before a major assault and backed
up quickly, or a hit and run strike for other objectives (there only on
the ground for an hour at most).

Also, in the context of a major war (Third Imperium vs Solomani for eg) then
tactical surprise would be the best to be achieved, strategic surprise
would be out the window, because any defending commander worth anything
would have to consider that if an invasion is immnient, then JTroopers will
probably be involved.


PaChi,

Michael

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


Meisetsu
THE ONLY TRACE
The travelling monk has vanished in the mists; but
still his little silver bell persists.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:53:13 -0500
From: The Stump Family <stumps@earthlink.net>
Subject: Pod logo

The pods of the 7th Infanty (Assault) in my campaign say
"Don't run, you'll just die tired"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 23:57:30 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Speed, Relativity & such

On this note, I have a question.  As you get closer the light speed, doesn't
the ship, at some point, begin to out run it's own active sensors? Not
knowing the exact speed of a radar pulse, but I would assume that at some
point the difference between the velocity of the emiting ship and the
maximum velocity of the radar pulse will be so small, that it is rendered
useless. How then, without using something akin to psionic precognition, can
you plot a safe course?

Garry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 20:18:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: SECTOR DATA/Web Site

      My web site is going through updates for the next couple of weeks, so
look for new stuff.
      As part of it there are 1120 and 1200 versions of a fair amount of
sectors (hopefully mostly corrected). I don't know if their all linked to the
web page, but you should be able to FTP them.
       Comments/email are always appreciated.
      The site is at members.aol.com/kagekiha/traveller/index.htm

P.S. This sector data might be of help in fixing the FS problems.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 15:42:26 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Starports

At 09:41 PM 5/28/97, Pedro Arnal Puente wrote:
>At 17:58 28/05/97 +0200, Carlos wrote:
>>Quoth Marc Miller:
>>
>>>E. Frontier starport. With no facilities, the installation is little more
>>>than a flat expanse of bedrock and a sign. This designation effectively
>>>means there is no starport.
>>
>>        So, is this the ultimate fix for the absence of X starports in first
>>Survey? The "X" and "E" starports are merged, and called "E"?

>I tought E starports being simply a more o less plain field with a
>rudimentary microwave or radio bearing system. And X being the 'land on
>your own'.

This was always how I played it.  A class E starport usually had a radio
beacon and a prestressed concrete pad or a large hunk of bedrock, but no
other facilities, and the radio beacon might not be on site.  It reminds me
of some frontier airports which do have landing lights, but no humans.  To
turn on the landing lights, you click the mike at the tower frequency, and
on they come.

A class X has no prepared area at all, which meant that you did not know
that the ship could stay upright, there might be something else lurking in
the pad area, or you might not even be able to find a place to plop a
pre-grav ship down.  Indeed, you might need to blast down to the bedrock,
which could make your landing spot ... interesting.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 17:16:56 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Lookin' for hex map

At 03:51 PM 5/28/97 -0700, you wrote:
>or rather just the blank map paper, a decent jpeg or postscript file of
>such.
>
>The MT Referee's Companion contains a sector hexmap on page 86, however
>it is missing hex numbers and the subsector borders are broken.  Does
>anyone know of such an animal?

Give me a few weeks, and I should have postscript sectors available.  I
need to do some serious debugging and going over my current output with a
magnifier to make sure I am still generating what I think I am.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:44:47 +1000
From: Jason Anderson <midnight@kagi.com>
Subject: Re: FS/M0 Data

>ile 3209    Gimem . E7AA8DH-5   Wa      200     M3 V
>
>Uh, what's that 'H' at the end of the UWP??? A law level of 'H'??
>(That is Law level, isn't it?)

Isn't law level unbounded at the top? ie: higher law levels (like H) just
mean that the society is more and more restrictive on what citizens can do
(although given that definition I don't think I want to live in a society
with law level of H!!)

Cheers,
Jason

- -------
Beyond Midnight Software                               <midnight@kagi.com>
                                      <http://www.vision.net.au/~midnight>

             If it's not on fire then it's a software problem.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 17:38:02 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: FS/M0 Data

At 05:44 PM 5/28/97 -0400, Ethan wrote:

>ile 3209    Gimem . E7AA8DH-5   Wa      200     M3 V
>
>Uh, what's that 'H' at the end of the UWP??? A law level of 'H'??
>(That is Law level, isn't it?)

Yup.  That's a law level alrighty! A mighty big one too!  Law 17, with a
religious dictatorship, and an exotic atomosphere..

OK, the planet is run by an elite minority who control the ability to
repair the TL9 life support systems.  This has become a religion over the
years, with strict controls enforced during Twilight as Solomani support
faded away and left the world stranded.  Every aspect of life is controled,
from cradle to grave.  The Adims decide what you learn, who you make with,
and what you do every day.  Rebellion is punished by being publically
shoved out of the airlock into "hell."  

The religion focuses around the belief that they are in fact in purgatory,
and will someday be redeemed.  When the PC's arrive, they will be seen as
emissaries from God.  The Adims will *not* be pleased to find out otherwise..

That's just off the top of my head.
- --

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
|   "Wide unclasp the tables of their thoughts    |
|  These same thoughts people this little World"  |
|      - inscription on a stained glass window,   |
|        found in the Winchester Mystery House.   |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 19:58:10 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: First Survey Spectrography

I don't have the real-world information resources to check this data (and
I'm unwilling to trust SF sources), so I'd appreciate it if one of our
astronomic "brain trust" on the list could check these distributions for
me.

Several searches through Marc's machine-readable First Survey turn up the
following, which includes all stars including those in multiple systems
(except for a few ternary M-class missing spectral class: they're probably
V or D):

		 O	 B	 A	 F	 G	 K	  M
	  I	 0	 0	 0	  0	  0	  0	    0
	 II	 0	 0	 1	  4	  4	  9	   31
	III	 0	 0	 3	  9	 10	 26	   54
	 IV	 0	 0	 3	 11	 18	 30	   51
	  V	 0	 0	49	274	300	385	  924
	 VI	 0	 0	 2	 70	 56	 59	  109
	  D	 0	 0	 1	181	132	137	1,705

As I noted in my previous letter, the type-VI stars really should be
"turned up" to type V, and several of the white dwarfs (those which
are the primaries for habitable planets) should likewise become main
sequence stars instead.

Most of the data above look O.K. to my limited astronomic education --
except that I think white dwarfs are vastly over-represented!  This is a
particular problem given Traveller's generous estimates for habitable
planets -- should those stars be changed?

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 19:19:24 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Speed, Relativity & such

 
> On this note, I have a question.  As you get closer the light speed, doesn't
> the ship, at some point, begin to out run it's own active sensors? Not
> knowing the exact speed of a radar pulse, but I would assume that at some
> point the difference between the velocity of the emiting ship and the
> maximum velocity of the radar pulse will be so small, that it is rendered
> useless. How then, without using something akin to psionic precognition, can
> you plot a safe course?

The speed of light is always the same for any observer (within the
same media).  So your active sensor pulses leave the ship at a
reletive velocity of c, and return with a reletive velocity of c.
What would happen is that the wavelength would change (doppler
shift).  This is what they mean by "red shift" and "blue shift."
If you look away from you direction of movement the signal will have
a much longer wavelength than you emitted.  Look forward and it will
shorten.  Longer is red, shorter is blue (in the visual range).

So it might be a problem if you radar sees a limited bandwidth since
the signal might shift away from what it detects (a radar dish won't
see visible light, for example).

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 19:14:14 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Meson Radiation

 
> Now, the original poster has a point, what is different about a meson
> explosion and a nuclear reactor that the explosion fails to "irradiate"
> the material surrounding it and the reactor does?

Pions (neutral mesons) decay into gamma photons.  Gammas are
ionizing radiation.  So the target gets irradiated.

The way reactors make stuff around them radioactive (when they do)
is that the surronding material might capture neutrons escaping the
reactor, or they might even grab electrons (within the nucleus).  In
either case, the nucleus ends up with too many neutrons and becomes
unstable.  An atom that is unstable is radioactive (it breaks apart
til it is stable).

> Is this also true for nuclear missile warheads?
 
Missiles will mostly give the target xrays and gammas.

> Incidentially, back in the days when I knew less about these things, ships
> disabled by Nuke missiles in my game were effectively unusable until a
> vessel with a nuclear damper arrived on the scene (something common in
> naval vessels over 5000 tons or so).  I assumed the period required was
> longer than "game time" would allow.

Dunno if this would be likely.  Most radiation contamination on
modern ships (they blew up a few nukes with ships parked nearby) was
basically fallout---this is really what radiation contamination is,
small radioactive particles that settle out from the blast.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:40:06 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Smartguns

On Wed, 28 May 1997 GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:

> Subject: smart guns
> 
> >Material about firearms requiring a surgically implanted transponder in the
> user's finger in order to function deleted > 
> 
> > I leave further creative sparks on this matter to you. =)
> 
> OK. Two tweaks:
> 
> 1: If somebody _without_ a transponder chip pulls the trigger, instead of
> firing, it flips forward and traps the culprit's finger against the trigger
> guard, and, simultaneously,
> 
> 2: sets off a really loud and really annoying siren/strobe light in the
> gun-butt.
> 

3. Detonates a thermonuclear explosion :)



SaHua,

Michael

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


Kikaku
The Happy beggar, whom the passer loathes,
Wears earth and Heaven as his summer clothes.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 21:52:33 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Re: smart guns

Anders wrote:

>
>You could even have a low power narrow beam transmitter in the gun and a
>small coded transponder in the ring/badge/surgically implant that would
>make the gun refuse to fire if aimed at a policeman. This would be really
>beneficial for police and also great fun for the electronically inclined
>slightly less law abiding PCs.


	For gauss and laser pistols, how about a variant that discharges
the weapon's entire power pack through electrodes in the pistol grip if a
non-authorized individual pulls the trigger?

	Zot!  Sizzle sizzle sizzle >:).

R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 22:10:12 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: FS-Data Starport Distribution

More tidbits from my ongoing analysis of Marc Miller's machine-readable
First Survey data.  Hopefully these will foster some discussion of just
what Imperial space looked like in the decades before and during the
initial expansion, and what we can do to make these masses of random
data conform to both the written history and to current scientific
thought.  If digest readers or others are annoyed by the somewhat
scattershot nature of these posts, please let me know: I just figure
bite-size pieces are handier and less soporific than one massive
statistical analysis.

In my last post (re: spectral distribution), I neglected to include the
distribution of stars into single, binary, and trinary systems, so here we
go.  Of the 4562 systems covered in the data, 2624 are single, 1821 are
binary, and 117 are trinary.

I tried a starport distribution as well, with some odd results.  Some of
the strangeness comes from the presence of ports on barren worlds without
any population, or on very low-tech and/or low-population planets.  While
I have no problem believing this in the Mature Imperium (1100's) Milieu,
it sticks in my craw a bit for an area of space just emerging from a Long
Night of interstellar isolation and absence of trade and big government. 
Indeed, I'd prefer something much more akin to the TNE starport
distribution, with few to no ports except in specifically developed areas. 

Again, we have 4562 worlds in total for the nine sectors covered.  The
starports on these worlds break down as follows:

	A:   402
	B: 1,184
	C: 1,327
	D:   813
	E:   836

I don't have figures yet on how many worlds have ports but no population,
for example -- if I had a database instead of just a spreadsheet, such
analyses would be less cumbersome to come by.  But I'll tinker with it
anyway.  To my eye, 10% A ports seems about right, but I'd prefer to swap
the relative abundances of (B&C) and (D&E) class ports.  Any comments?

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 22:45:23 -0500
From: The Stump Family <stumps@earthlink.net>
Subject: re:Jump/Casualties

Tim reynolds writes;

> Brett Fishburne says
> 
> >Whew! Hot topic. I am amazed by the ideas flying around. Let's see if I
> >can (intelligently) respond to some of the questions/statements..
> >Yep, light infantry would be chewed up by even mechanized forces, let
> >alone grav tanks. You get around this by either a) only holding enough
> >real estate for the anti-tank teams to arrive from orbit or b) not
> >letting them find you (i.e., being a small, fast unit that leaves soon).
> >- -If you are planning to invade a planet with deep meson sites and you
> >drop jump troop, the smart money is on the fact that they will assault
> >at least one of the meson sites - this makes the whole invasion MUCH
> 
> 
> I have to agree and and disagree with, Brett.   He is right that a Jump
> Infantry would be used for a holding action or raid type mission.  But I
> cant agree that they would be chewed up, messed up yes and not very happy
> but they could do their mission for two reasons.  1) The element of surprise
> would mean that they would face only light resistance and  unorganized
> counter attacks.  This would allow them to hold their objectives until
> relived.  2) Technology would also play a major role by 3rd Imperium  man
> portable plamsa weapons and other heavy support weapons will be aviable.
> Even our 21 centary war program are developing such weapons.
> >
Actually I (Rick Stump) wrote that and, if you re-read it, I said that
jump troop would be chewed up _By Mechanized Infantry, Let Alone Grav
Tanks_ . Trust me, I know light infantry can take and hold objectives -
I WAS light infantry (of a sort).

> >Only trouble is, any planet with decent spasce capability is going to
> >detect this *at least* 10-100 light seconds out. That's several *days*.
> >They'll either send a ship to nudge it into a non-intercept course, or,
> >because it is so small, blast it into chunks.
> 
> Lastly I would like to point out that on the first page of the Chapter
> covering Travell in space in T4 it states that time to save jump point is 5
> hrs at 1G for a size 8 planet.  Thats like 2.2 hrs at 6G.  so actualy if
> planned right a Jump infantry transport will only give the planet what 3.5
> hrs to get ready.  Also you have to assume that other ships with jammers and
> other electronic and decoy ships will come in at the same speed to confuse
> the enemy as to which one was the actual Transport.
> 
> This would also help the Jump Infentary on the ground see above.

The quote about 'days of warning' was responding to a question about
disguising jump troops as meteors coming from deep space.

Personally, I think a full division could be deployed from orbit in
about 1 hr. (total, including drop time). Regardless of the tech level
of the defenders, being able to respond to an entire division anywhre on
the planet in 1 hour is well nigh impossible.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1377
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 29 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1378



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: "Smart" guns
Re: ANCIENT Grandfather
Re: Living expenses
Re: Jump troops
RE: Smartguns
R&R: radiation and radioactivity
Re: Genetics Errors
Pocket Empire review?
Re: Living expenses
Speed, Relativity & such (fwd)
Re: Starports
re:Jump/Casualties
Re: "Smart Guns"
RE: Smartguns
Re:Smart Guns
Re: Speed, Relativity & such
Re: Extreme Law Levels (was RE: FS/M0 Data)
Re: FS-Data Starport Distribution
Re: The Imperial Army (LONG)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:56:21 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: "Smart" guns

At 19:10 28/05/97 +0200, you wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
>> 
>>   Of course, the cops would be carrying a 'backup/throwaway' lacking any
>> such gizmos.  Do I have to mention that the crooks would have 'em too?  :-)
>
>Since these would be highly illegal, the punishment of even carrying one
>of these would be quite severe, which would deter most people from
>carrying one.
>
Only the law-abiding. The criminals are already criminals, so what's a few
more years if you're caught?

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 14:07:36 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: ANCIENT Grandfather

At 09:28 16/05/97 +0100, you wrote:
Perhaps Grandfather selected the six species that were going to be
significant on the locl interstellar scene. Or maybe those with a destiny.
Hmmm.. what if they destiny isn't to have interstellar empires, but to do
something that hasn't happened yet?

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 13:40:37 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Living expenses

At 15:15 28/05/97 +0200, you wrote:
>Are you saying that your budget dosent correspond to my figures unless the
>cerdit is worth a lot more than a dollar. That may well be. The figure I
>give is based on information I got from a few Americans some time ago and
>I can't vouch for them. In another posting someone suggests $3 per credit.
>Does that fit better? Anyway, what I was asking was whether the '1 part for
>food, 1 part for lodging, and 1 part for other expenses' fits your own
>budget. It fits mine and most of the dozen people I asked about it some
>years ago.

My current budget in New Zealand in a student flat type living arrangement
is rent of NZ$275 per week split 5 ways, for NZ$55 each. Food costs about
NZ$25 - 30 per week, so the ratio of food/rent is 1 food, 2 housing. The
other component is 'the rest' as nobody has enough money to save anything. 

BTW the Dole is NZ$146.50 per week for those over 25, and about NZ$30 less
for 19 - 25 year olds. The average income is apparently about NZ$600 - 650
per week. This suggests that a Credit is worth about NZ$4 (assuming that at
average to low incomes one spends almost all one's income on living), and
that someone with a SS of 2 will spend about Cs150 on living per month. Of
course this depends on the Empire having an income dirtribution similar to
here (NZ).

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:49:56 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Jump troops

At 18:10 27/05/97 +0200, you wrote:
>R. Boleyn wrote:
>>How about Drop Capsules equiped with one shot Grav compensators and
>>G-Tanks? It might be possible to make quite powerful compensators, if
>>they're only one-shot. This would allow for a very high-G deacceleration,
>>and thus a high entry velocity. This would mean less transit time, and less
>>low speed 'float time' in the atmosphere.
>
>May be too expensive!
>
You're already spending Megacredits like water, so what's a few more here
or there?

Ok,using TNE/FFS a G-tank costs MCr 0.01 (no need for more than a few
switches inside the Battledress.
 G-compensators for say 2 m^3 cost MCr 0.001 and need 0.01 MW for say 5 min
of deacceleration. This could be provided by 0.0013 m^3 of Batteries,
costing about Cr 7. So the total cost of a standard Grav compensation
system, plus G-tanks is about MCr 0.011

Even if a juiced-up one-shot system cost 10 times as much (MCr 0.11) it
wounld still cost less than TL 12 light Battledress (again prices are from
FFS), let alone the Drop Capsule (they cost about MCr 0.35).

I really think that the only ways to reduce vulnerabily of Jump Troops in
hit-and-run attacks are by 1/ mininising the response time before launch of
the troops, and 2/ minising the troops flight time.

The first can be minimised by 'quiet' approaches, or disguising the drop
ship as part of the normal traffic. The latter may be the only way if basic
gravitic sensors can reliably detect jump space emergence system wide. A
quiet approach need not be a slow approach, as considerable velocity could
be gained in the outer system.

The second point can really only be acheived by a high re-entry vector and
rapid deacceleration as low as possible. This could be assisted by
G-compensation technology, but only if it can give a very high degree of
compensation, as the difference between say 20 and 23 Gs is not very great. 

I like the idea of an insulated second shell, and ejecting the outer skin
after upper atmosphere re-entry, this would be coupled with evasion and
course correction by cold gas rockets. This would be over a period of near
free fall, followed by a very high-G deacceleration very close to the ground.

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 08:32:23 +0400
From: Andy Long <andyl@icluae.co.ae>
Subject: RE: Smartguns

>>>>
>-----Original Message-----
>From:	GDWGAMES@aol.com [SMTP:GDWGAMES@aol.com]
>Sent:	Thursday, May 29, 1997 3:34 AM
>>Material about firearms requiring a surgically implanted transponder in the
>user's finger in order to function deleted > 
>
>> I leave further creative sparks on this matter to you. =)
>
>OK. Two tweaks:
>
>1: If somebody _without_ a transponder chip pulls the trigger, instead of
>firing, it flips forward and traps the culprit's finger against the trigger
>guard, and, simultaneously,
>
>2: sets off a really loud and really annoying siren/strobe light in the
>gun-butt.
>
>Loren Wiseman
>    GDW Emeritus
>[andy long]  <<<<
>
>This is all very well, but if there are underground armorers who can modify
>single-shot assault rifles back into their full-auto configurations, then
>don't you think that there will be people who can defeat the electronics of
>such weapons?
>
>Andy
>
>================================================================
>smtp Email:		andyl@icluae.co.ae OR
>			andylong@x400.icl.co.uk OR
>			A.G.Long@abu0101.wins.icl.co.uk OR
>			andylong@emirates.net.ae
>x400 Email:		c=ae;a=emdan;p=icl;ou1=abu0101;
>			s=Long;i=AG;
>			o=International Computers Ltd;
>A.G. Long, c/o ICL	Phone:	+971 (2) 335200/338066
>PO Box 7237		Fax:	+971 (2) 338724
>Abu Dhabi
>United Arab Emirates
>================================================================
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 00:32:04 -0400
From: Tom Trelenberg <tomt@scri.fsu.edu>
Subject: R&R: radiation and radioactivity

Twas written:

>Now, the original poster has a point, what is different about a meson
>explosion and a nuclear reactor that the explosion fails to "irradiate"
>the material surrounding it and the reactor does?
>
>Is this also true for nuclear missile warheads?
>
>How about particle accelerators?

A fission reactor fuel itself is radioactive.  The explosion of such a
reactor would, as stated earlier, would spread this fuel over a wide
area...the most significant residual radiation from this event would be
from this left over fuel.

Such an event would also produce a GREAT deal of one time "pulse"
radiation (alphas, betas, gammas) as the critical mass explodes.

Fusion reactors tend to be inherently safer to begin with--starting and
maitaining a controlled, small scale (relative to a reaction like "the
sun") has such demanding requirements that if a system fails, the
reactor is most likely to shut down.  Thats much the problem with fusion
today.  Fusion, in a controlled, contained, and small scale system DOES
NOT want to run.  We get many single events, but the trick is to get a
building sized reactor to reach temperatures and densities for a
sustained reaction.  Maybe in the far future designs will change to
where run-away reactions are possible, but in todays designs we are
trying to find out how you keep such a reaction going.

The fusion reaction itself produces radiation--of course, this is where
the energy comes from.  But once the reaction stops this radiation also
stops.  As stated in an earlier post (I think by Merrick Burkhardt)
radiation can make a substance radioactive if it can knock out the
occasional nuetron and create and unstable isotope.  The shielding
material (which gathers the energy of the fusion reaction and protects
those of us on the outside from getting burnt--SPF 10^100000 you might
say) is constantly being bombarded with copious amounts of radiation
from the reaction.  Even a transmutation event only occurs only one in a
trillion times, this shielding will still become noticably radioactive
over the life of the reactor (i.e. the shielding will still be giving
off radiation even when the reactor itself is shut down)

Particle accelerators take ordinary, harmless particles (like electrons)
and turn them into radiation (betas).  Again, when the accelerator shuts
down this radiation goes away....however again...over time the shielding
can become radioactive (though for PAs propably only very lightly so).

Finally (sorry this is so long--I didn't think I's be so verbose), my
understanding of how a meson gun is supposed to work is this:  A
metastable particle is created.  The parameter of the metastability is
that if the particle has X amount of energy it is stable.  If its energy
false below X it become unstable and will undergo some kind of decay. 
So we launch these particles some energy greater than X.  For whatever
reason (passing throught the hull, etc...) some of this energy is lost
and drops below X.  The particle undergoes decay, releasing radiation
but not necessarily decaying into something inherenly radioactive. 
(alternatively the parameter could be that the particles are stable for
a certain length of time and then decay.  Doing some relativistic
calculations and then accelerating the particles to the proper velocity
such that this time limit is reached just as the particles are passing
through the target could also work--SF is so cool--the possibilities are
endless when not shackled with cold reality)

Thats it...I hope you find it helpful (and for you physics PhDs out
there...go easy on me as you tear this apart.  I'm still just a grad.
student.)

TT

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 01:30:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: pawn@CAM.ORG (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Genetics Errors

>>The convicts in the (truly awful) movie _Aliens 3_ were XYY 'supermales'
>>who had been put on the prison colony because of their overly aggressive
>>tendencies. Prison populations do indeed have a far higher percentage of
>>XYY men than the general population.

John R. Snead <jsnead@netcom.com> replies:

>Actually, this is a very persistent (but wholly untrue) myth.  The history
>of US popular biology is full of massive amounts of misinformation about
>genetics.  The XYY "Supermale" idea originated in the early 50s and has
>been cropping up ever since.  The initial study was done with an extremely
>small sample size and was disproved shortly thereafter. 
>Biological determinism (of which the XYY myth is an example) may be
>popular in some (conservative) circles, but evidence for it is still
>nonexistent. 

Interesting. Especially considering I didn't read about XYY males in a
popular science context, but in university textbooks on biology and human
sexuality. Granted, at least one of them was a tad old, 1968 vintage, and
thus highly suspect. Am not sure if it was mentioned in the more recent
books I've read - I'd have to check.

Am always glad to hear that some tennet of biological determinism turns out
to be a myth!

         - GMG -

- -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                      <pawn@cam.org>
Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"The courts may not work anymore, but so long as everyone
      is videotaping everyone else, we'll be okay."
                    -- Marge Simpson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 07:43:11 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Pocket Empire review?

Can anybody make a detailed review of PE? All I know is that it's based on
1 year turns and that the map covers about a sector(?). Is it similar to
the economic rules in World Tamers (the best TNE book BTW) or is it some
simplified boardgamish rules? My supplier (or should that be pusher ;)
won't carry IG stuff unless I preorder and as the average level of IG stuff
has been so pathetic I'd like someones opinion before buying it (I'm
sounding a tad cheap am I not?)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 07:38:39 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Living expenses

>Are you saying that your budget dosent correspond to my figures unless the
>cerdit is worth a lot more than a dollar. That may well be. The figure I
>give is based on information I got from a few Americans some time ago and
>I can't vouch for them. In another posting someone suggests $3 per credit.
>Does that fit better? Anyway, what I was asking was whether the '1 part for
>food, 1 part for lodging, and 1 part for other expenses' fits your own
>budget. It fits mine and most of the dozen people I asked about it some
>years ago.

I spend half on lodging, half on food and about half on luxury ;)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 00:14:38 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Speed, Relativity & such (fwd)

Forwarded message:

> From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
> Subject: Speed, Relativity & such
> Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 23:57:30 +0000

> On this note, I have a question.  As you get closer the light speed, doesn't
> the ship, at some point, begin to out run it's own active sensors? Not
> knowing the exact speed of a radar pulse, but I would assume that at some
> point the difference between the velocity of the emiting ship and the
> maximum velocity of the radar pulse will be so small, that it is rendered
> useless. How then, without using something akin to psionic precognition, can
> you plot a safe course?

Actualy no. Remember that as you approach the speed of light the 'size' of
the universe approaches zero. Visualy what you would see would be the
horizon move from directly in front of you to a ring centered axialy around
your velocity vector. In effect the beam can't out run you because the
universe has effectively shrunk down to miniscule proportions.

Consider, a photon from it's own perspective is everywhere in the universe
at the same time.

                                                      Jim Choate
                                                      CyberTects
                                                      ravage@ssz.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 07:54:21 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Starports

>It's really official, or canon, in T4 the dissapearing of X starports.
>
>I tought E starports being simply a more o less plain field with a
>rudimentary microwave or radio bearing system. And X being the 'land on
>your own'.

The problem with X-ports is that all appear on interdicted worlds. It seems
a bit odd that all solar system in the Imperium are worthy of E-ports
unless E-ports are really basic.

My E-ports is a flat landing pad of ferrocrete or some such and a radio
transponder that (as all ship transponders) react to navradars. The
transponder logs all communication and now and then a Scout will come by
and download the log to assist in locating misjumped ships, tracking down
pirates etc. There's no extrality fence but the area is still Imperial
property.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:08:45 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: re:Jump/Casualties

On Wed, 28 May 1997, The Stump Family wrote:

[snip]
> Personally, I think a full division could be deployed from orbit in
> about 1 hr. (total, including drop time). Regardless of the tech level
> of the defenders, being able to respond to an entire division anywhre on
> the planet in 1 hour is well nigh impossible.

You really think so?  I think that they could get some kind of defense
there within in an hour.   The Americans have (had?) a Rapid Deployment
force that could be anywhere in 24 hours and be in force within 48 hours.
Don't you think that in 3000 years a similiar situation could occur in an
hour?

Just thinking out aloud.

SaHua,

Michael

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


"I against my brother,
I and my brother against our cousin,
I, my brother and our cousin against the neighbors,
All of us against the foreigner." 
- - Bedouin proverb

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 08:01:34 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: "Smart Guns"

>  When was the last time a cop got busted on a weapons charge?  How many
>cops carried unregistered guns ("On the Badge") in areas with severe
>penaties for unregistered ownership?
>
>  For the crooks, it's a tool needed to conduct their trade.  The
>penalities for assault, robbery, grand theft air/raft, etc. are already
>high enough to "deter most people."  Tacking a weapons charge on top is
>moot.  Besides, that assumes:  1.  You get caught, 2. You leave witnesses,
>3. Witnesses will testify after your buddies take out his "insert family
>member" with a hopped up Thud gun, 4 through a very large positive integer
>left as an exercise...

We're talking about civilized countries/planets, not the US. Most criminals
in Sweden are unarmed or maybe carrying a knife and yes, our cops do get
busted on weapons charge. I rate US as a law level 3-4 planet were Sweden
could be about 7.

These discussions about safety devices to minimize accidental shootings
could very well be of real importance on a planet very unlike the current
US. Traveller is NOT yanks in space, at least not in my campaign.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:11:48 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: RE: Smartguns

On Thu, 29 May 1997, Andy Long wrote:

> >>>>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From:	GDWGAMES@aol.com [SMTP:GDWGAMES@aol.com]
> >Sent:	Thursday, May 29, 1997 3:34 AM
> >>Material about firearms requiring a surgically implanted transponder in the
> >user's finger in order to function deleted > 
> >
> >> I leave further creative sparks on this matter to you. =)
> >
> >OK. Two tweaks:
> >
> >1: If somebody _without_ a transponder chip pulls the trigger, instead of
> >firing, it flips forward and traps the culprit's finger against the trigger
> >guard, and, simultaneously,
> >
> >2: sets off a really loud and really annoying siren/strobe light in the
> >gun-butt.
> >
> >Loren Wiseman
> >    GDW Emeritus
> >[andy long]  <<<<
> >
> >This is all very well, but if there are underground armorers who can modify
> >single-shot assault rifles back into their full-auto configurations, then
> >don't you think that there will be people who can defeat the electronics of
> >such weapons?

Sure they would, but thats no reason not to try.  It's like saying "whats the
point of banning hand guns in the USA, people will still get them" sure
they will, but it *will* be harder.  Also, your average Joe will not get
his hand on one.


SaHua,

Michael

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


"I against my brother,
I and my brother against our cousin,
I, my brother and our cousin against the neighbors,
All of us against the foreigner." 
- - Bedouin proverb

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 08:08:38 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re:Smart Guns

>The first was a plastic gun built by a Dutch firm.  Accept for the
>bullets, it had no metal in it what so ever.

It also had a slightly helical gunbarrel doing away with rifles. Talk about
immoral gunsmithing.
This gun was made to (IMNSHO):
1 Not show up on airport metaldetectorors
2 Not traceable by ballistics examinations

Most criminals would love to have such a gun. In my campaign there's a gun
producer on Wurzburg/Glisten that produces a similar one for the same
reasons.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 08:12:39 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Speed, Relativity & such

>On this note, I have a question.  As you get closer the light speed, doesn't
>the ship, at some point, begin to out run it's own active sensors? Not
>knowing the exact speed of a radar pulse, but I would assume that at some
>point the difference between the velocity of the emiting ship and the
>maximum velocity of the radar pulse will be so small, that it is rendered
>useless. How then, without using something akin to psionic precognition, can
>you plot a safe course?
>
>Garry

Radars go at lightspeed and lightspeed is lightspeed in all reference
systems. The problem would instead come from doppler shift as the bounced
pulse would either get red or blue shifted into undetectable by the
receiver.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 22:28:05 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Extreme Law Levels (was RE: FS/M0 Data)

> Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 17:44:42 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
> Subject: Re: FS/M0 Data

> ile 3209    Gimem . E7AA8DH-5   Wa      200     M3 V

> Uh, what's that 'H' at the end of the UWP??? A law level of 'H'??
> (That is Law level, isn't it?) 

> Ethan

Yes that is the law level of this planet & it is a legitimate law level
for a type D government.  It would have required a roll of 11 on the 
(2d6 -7 + Gov(14)) table but it is correct.

MT's Referee Manual (pg 25) says that the following combinations of
government and law level will automatically result in the following
travel zones:

Govt		Law Level
Type	G   H   J   K   L	- = Green travel zone
A	-   -   -   -   A	A = Amber travel zone
B	-   -   -   A   A	R = Red travel zone
C	-   - 	A   A   A
D	-   A   A   A   R
E	-   A   A   R   R
F	A   A   R   R   R

So if this was a Milieu 1100 planet it would be in error since the above
planetary description is not amber zoned, but in year 0 this system was
probably not in effect.

DGP's MegaTraveller Referee's Gaming Kit describes the extreme law
levels as follows

Law Level

Code	General description

A	no weapons
B	rigid control of civilian movement
C	unrestricted invasion of privacy
D	paramilitary law enforcement
E	full fledged police state
F	all facets of daily life rigidly controlled
G	severe punishment of petty infractions
H	legalized oppressive practices
J	routinely oppressive and restrictive
K	excessively oppressive & restricted
L	totally oppressive & restrictive

The other players in the Traveller group I played in last year always
thought that my charecter was being too picky in avoiding extreme law
level worlds when he plotted our ships course.

Then one day on a law level H planet we saw a police officer
_in_Battle_Dress_ kill a tresspasser with his bare gauntleted hands &
some of us had brains splattered all over us.  The other players were
quickly converted to my "Don't go to planets with letters for a law
level" point of view.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 16:38:41 +1000
From: Jason Anderson <midnight@kagi.com>
Subject: Re: FS-Data Starport Distribution

Hi all,

>If digest readers or others are annoyed by the somewhat
>scattershot nature of these posts, please let me know:

Well, I for one am interested in what you are posting.


>I tried a starport distribution as well, with some odd results.  Some of
>the strangeness comes from the presence of ports on barren worlds without
>any population, or on very low-tech and/or low-population planets.

I feel that that doesn't always matter. Depending on your definition of a
starport, it is possible to have a starport on a barren world. It could be
what the world had before the population died off (for example). Likewise
with a low tech world - hundreds of years ago it was in use, but now it is
deserted. Of course, if the starport classification means a _fully
functional_ starport, then what I just wrote doesn't make sense.

BTW, this is also a reason why I feel barren worlds having a tech level is
possible - it is the tech level the civilisation was at when it ceased to
be a civilisation.


>Again, we have 4562 worlds in total for the nine sectors covered.  The
>starports on these worlds break down as follows:
>
>	A:   402
>	B: 1,184
>	C: 1,327
>	D:   813
>	E:   836
>
>To my eye, 10% A ports seems about right

I have to disagree. There should be very few starports of class A (since
Sylea is supposed to be the only world to maintain one through the long
night), and most will be centered in the Core sector. Maybe around 50-100
class A starports? Even that may be too high.


>..but I'd prefer to swap
>the relative abundances of (B&C) and (D&E) class ports.

Probably about right.

BTW, we really have to decide EXACTLY when this survey is meant to
represent. Milieu 0 is too broad. Year 0? Year 20? Year 50? Year 139.3256?

Cheers,
Jason

- -------
Beyond Midnight Software                               <midnight@kagi.com>
                                      <http://www.vision.net.au/~midnight>

             If it's not on fire then it's a software problem.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 16:43:13 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: The Imperial Army (LONG)

At 13:43 12/05/97 -0700, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>In light of the recent discussions on the organization of the Imperial
Army, I thought I would take the time to present how it works in my version
of Traveller reality.
>
>For purposes of examining the Army as a mature force, and since it's where
my campaign is set, the example we will be looking at is the Lunion
Subsector of the Spinward Marches in 1105.  To start at the top, we have:

<Humoungous Snip>

>Comments? Questions?

It has occured to me that this style of organization could be the reason
that the Impies have tended to do more poorly than they should've in the
various wars they fought in the lare Empire period. The system outlined
seems to include litte interaction with other arms of the Imperial
military. This could create that neat situation where the army needs
support and the navy's busy enjoying themselves chasing ships, when they
should be providing ortillery.

The lack of cooperation between regular and colonial units could cause
truely distasterous screwups in a spacebattle.

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1378
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 29 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1379



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

FS data: duplicate names
Re: Some world generation oddities... and OFFICIAL QUESTION
Re: "Smart" guns
Re: Smart Guns (totally off topic, sorta)
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1378
Re: Extreme Law Levels (was RE: FS/M0 Data)
Re: smart guns
Re: Use of Jump Troops and non-use of EMP
Re: Meson Radiation
Re: Sector Data

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 09:25:47 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: FS data: duplicate names

As someone has raised the issue of duplicate names, here are all the
doubles, triples, and quadruples for worlds with names beginning with the
letter 'A'.

I'm not suggesting that they shouldn't be there, just thought you'd be
interested to know their relative frequency.  There are some 595 worlds
with names beginning with 'a'.  So roughly 10%.
(I haven't deleted the blank sectors)

I *won't* be looking through the rest of the alphabet unless specifically
asked!

HTH

tc
timothy.collinson@solent.ac.uk
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
|  1  |  2   |      3      |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
| ile | 708  | Adia        |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
| ile | 1203 | Adia        |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|


|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
|  1  |  2   |      3      |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
| dag | 106  | Akimu       |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
| del | 1602 | Akimu.      |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|


|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
|  1  |  2   |      3      |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
| for | 602  | Amka .      |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
| gus | 1227 | Amka .      |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
| del | 1119 | Amka.       |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
|  1  |  2   |      3      |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
| zar | 1129 | Amkha .     |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|


|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
|  1  |  2   |      3      |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
| cdr | 312  | Amki .      |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
| cdr | 1906 | Amki .      |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|


|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
|  1  |  2   |      3      |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
| for | 1640 | Andar  .    |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
| lis | 634  | Andar .     |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|


|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
|  1  |  2   |      3      |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
| lis | 337  | Angi .      |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
| gus | 2526 | Angi.       |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|


|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
|  1  |  2   |      3      |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
| gus | 2128 | Anir  .     |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
| zar | 1740 | Anir .      |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
| ant | 421  | Anir.       |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
| ant | 108  | Anir.       |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|


|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
|  1  |  2   |      3      |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
| ile | 403  | Ansha       |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
| ile | 3218 | Ansha       |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|


|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
|  1  |  2   |      3      |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
| zar | 3040 | Apkii  .    |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
| dag | 2426 | Apkii .     |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|


|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
|  1  |  2   |      3      |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
| cdr | 709  | Arga.       |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
| for | 1002 | Arga.       |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|


|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
|  1  |  2   |      3      |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
| ile | 2418 | Ari .       |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
| ant | 1603 | Ari.        |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|


|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
|  1  |  2   |      3      |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
| mas | 217  | Arish  .    |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
| mas | 1909 | Arish .     |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|


|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
|  1  |  2   |      3      |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
| cor | 1222 | Armi  .     |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
| dag | 2708 | Armi .      |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|



|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
|  1  |  2   |      3      |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
| for | 1702 | Ashka  .    |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
| mas | 1340 | Ashka .     |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|


|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
|  1  |  2   |      3      |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
| gus | 2406 | Ashkha  .   |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
| zar | 3222 | Ashkha  .   |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|


|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
|  1  |  2   |      3      |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
| ile | 3119 | Ashla  .    |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|
|     |      |             |
| gus | 1125 | Ashla.      |
|     |      |             |
|-----+------+-------------|




Other close matches (not exhaustive):

Amka/Amkha
Angi/Angii
Arda/Ardaa
Argi/Argii
Arirle/Arirlu
Ashde/Ashder

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 05:51:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Some world generation oddities... and OFFICIAL QUESTION

In a message dated 97-03-25 13:23:26 EST, you write:

>        So, OFFICIAL QUESTION(s): Is the world generation going to be
>  reworked in the Deluxe Edition? Are the type B starport description and
the
>  rule for creating hydrosphere typos?

Offical Answer

Starport Type
	Starport type is based on a simple letter classification system (ranging
from A to E) which details their basic facilities.
	A. Excellent quality facility with refined and unrefined fuel available on
site. Facilities include capability to perform annual overhaul and new
starship construction (QSDS certified designs). A naval base may be present.
A scout base is usually not present. A surface installation is present. A
highport may be present (generally if the world atmosphere is 2+).
	B. Good quality starport with refined and unrefined fuel available on site.
Facilities include capability to perform annual overhaul and new spacecraft
construction (QSDS certified designs). A naval base may be present. A scout
base may be present. A surface installation is present. A highport may be
present (generally if the world atmosphere is 2+).
	C. Routine quality starport with unrefined fuel available on site.
Facilities include some capability for repair (primarily replacement of
QSDS-certified parts). A naval base is usually not present. A scout base may
be present. A surface installation is present. A highport is usually not
present.

Marc Miller

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:25:19 +0200
From: Per Bernhardsson <bard@ludd.luth.se>
Subject: Re: "Smart" guns

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> Only the law-abiding. The criminals are already criminals, so what's a few
> more years if you're caught?

How about execution?

 / Per

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:24:17 +0200
From: Per Bernhardsson <bard@ludd.luth.se>
Subject: Re: Smart Guns (totally off topic, sorta)

Michael Solomani Mifsud wrote:
> 
> Also, the weapon used in "5th element" where the bullets would "seek" out
> the target, how likely is this sort of technology?  Another old 70's
> sci-fi had a similiar weapon.

In the book "Grunts" by Mart Gentle they use "Smart Ammo" at one time,
but this ammo had a small LCD-display on the side which say "...
46-453-56 ... SIR, SHOOT ME AT THE ENEMY NOW, SIR ... 647-3 ..." and a
little later they pick up another clip where the ammo say "... 08-97-6
... HELL NO WE WONT GO ... WE SHALL OVERCOME WE SHALL ..." clearly even
smarter ammo as the commander later comments. :)

I should tell you that this book is one of the best I've read lately.

 / Per

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 13:47:43 +0300 (EET DST)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1378

On Thu, 29 May 1997, Traveller-digest wrote:

> >The first was a plastic gun built by a Dutch firm.  Accept for the
> >bullets, it had no metal in it what so ever.
> 
> It also had a slightly helical gunbarrel doing away with rifles. Talk about
> immoral gunsmithing.
> This gun was made to (IMNSHO):
> 1 Not show up on airport metaldetectorors
> 2 Not traceable by ballistics examinations
> 
> Most criminals would love to have such a gun. In my campaign there's a gun
> producer on Wurzburg/Glisten that produces a similar one for the same
> reasons.

I do not think the first reason is very good. Plastic shows on X-ray
machines of the airports, only with less opaque shadow as metal. And the
shape of a gun is ...hm... distinguishing. As for metaldetectors, well,
try carrying an assault rifle in your pants, or under your jacket or
whatever. Furthermore, the bullets are a major concern. Unless in te
future they make bullets out of plastic... B-)

Perhaps plastic handgun would be more useful for criminals, a la
Shadowrun. (It has a plastic automatic pistol..)

IMHO, the recoil of a plastic gun would be much larger than the recoil of
a metallic one. 

Mikko Parviainen

http://www.hut.fi/~mvparvia

If Jesus was Jewish, why does he have a Mexican name?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 13:00:41 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Extreme Law Levels (was RE: FS/M0 Data)

>Then one day on a law level H planet we saw a police officer
>_in_Battle_Dress_ kill a tresspasser with his bare gauntleted hands &
>some of us had brains splattered all over us.  The other players were
>quickly converted to my "Don't go to planets with letters for a law
>level" point of view.

Actually that sounds more like a law level 1-2 planet were the police need
battle dress to stay alive and can do just about anything with their
arrestees.
Law level H is (IMHO) more like "you receive a letter/e-mail ordering you
to go to the nearest suicide center as there has been a slight demand
increase in your bloodtype organs".

Law level measures the number and pickiness of laws not the brutality of
law enforcement which generally tend to be inversely proportional to law
level.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:34:29 +0100 (BST)
From: "mark.wilkin" <aa4mwi@zen.sunderland.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: smart guns

> 
> Also, the weapon used in "5th element" where the bullets would "seek" out
> the target, how likely is this sort of technology?  Another old 70's
> sci-fi had a similiar weapon.
Ah RUNAWAY starring Tom Sellick as a dective in the Rogue Robots section. 
Quite fun actually, spider robots with acid, land torpedos and of course 
the heat seaking bullet. It homed in on your body heat, it could even 
home in on a particular persons heat signature. Quite cool really.

> [snip]
> > 
> > Also have a news paper article on an Australian designed VERY rapid fire
> > machine gun. So far tested at 45,000 to 135,00 rounds per minute, the
> > phalanx equivalent would fire at ten million. If any one is interested let
> > me know and I'll post it.
Now this is not a gun I would like to meet in a dark alleyway.

mark wilkin
"Damm talking out loud again" The Maxx

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 22:31:28 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Use of Jump Troops and non-use of EMP

In mail you write:

>>The point about the vulnerability of lightly-equipped Jump Troops 
>>to armour was well made, however if space superiority is assumed,
>>the Jump Troops would be able to call down a large amount of 
>>ortillery fire, particularily ship-mounted conventional missiles
>>in an anti-armour role.
>
> The oldest military rule, control the high ground, is once again affirmed.
> But even with ships in orbit, the travel for fire support will be extreme.
> From the point of view of the Marine/trooper, anything more than 30 seconds
> is way to long when you need that support now!  Lasers will retain a role
> in close support, especially against sprinting grav tanks that show
> themselves above cover.

It has occured to me that with CG available, some of the capsules will
be a CG lifter with a cheap kinetic weapon cluster wrapped around it.
Have some of these floating around at various levels, along with the
jammers and "chaff", and things get really ugly on the ground. 

This makes the weapons "pods" more vulnerable, but it should be worth
it in terms of decreased response time.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 00:12:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Meson Radiation

In mail you write:

>
>
> On Tue, 27 May 1997, Merrick Burkhardt wrote:
>
>>  
>> > >Then there's nothing to worry about as the meson gun doesn't make
>> > >things radioactive. The only radiation is *as* it goes off. 

<snip>
 
> Now, the original poster has a point, what is different about a meson
> explosion and a nuclear reactor that the explosion fails to "irradiate"
> the material surrounding it and the reactor does?

It takes neutrons to make something radioactive. Since Fission reactors
release *lots* of them, they tend to get absorbed by non-radioactive
atoms which (usually) results in an unstable atom. This is called
"neutron activation"

The meson explosion doesn't use neutrons and isn't likely to release
any from surrounding materials in a manner that would result in
absorption of them, thus no neutron activation occurs.

> Is this also true for nuclear missile warheads?

They will not have a high enough neutron flux for *long* enough to
activate much except maybe a few atoms in the actual warhead. But
fission warheads result in the mass of fissionables being turned into
lots of miscellaneous isotopes, mostly radioactive. these get spread
all over and if they attach to something, that's "fallout".

> How about particle accelerators?

Particle accelerators (unless using heavy ions) aren't likely to induce
radioactivity to any great extent, but mostly because it takes a *lot*
of neutrons over a fair amount of time to make things noticeably
radioactive. 

As an example, it takes hours to weeks inside the nearly ideal
environment of a nuclear reactor for things to get noticably
radioactive. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 22:38:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Sector Data

In mail you write:

>>One thing I'd like to know is how "consistent" the data format is. If
>>it's consistent enough, I'll try to get a copy and write a program that
>>"sanity checks" the data. That'd be a case of looking for susopicious
>>runs, and especially checking to see that the data is "legal" (ie law
>>is *possible* given the pop and gov). 
>
> Would be nice, and I am glad someone has started to write such a thing.  I
> am still trying to decide a good "grid square" format that knows all
> sectors so I can do multi-sector maps.

I use a grid system that has "negative numbers" defined as letters...

	JKLMNPQRSTUVWXYZ0123456789ABCDEFG

That gives a -16 to +16 range. And numbers increase going coreward and
spinward. Core sector is 00, Spinward Marches is 1W...

U1	RimReach
U2	Phlange
U3	Tracerie
VS	Ohieraoi		Aslan name
VT	Fahreahluis		Aslan name
VU	Hfiywitir		Aslan name
VV	Irlaftalea		Aslan name
VW	Teahloarifu		Aslan name
VX	Ahkiweahi'		Aslan name
VY	Banners
VY	Iyiyukhtoi'		Aslan name
V1	Hadji
V2	Storr
V3	Mikhail
V4	Darret
V5	Ataurre
V6	Katoonah
V7	Uytal
WS	Yahehwe			Aslan name
WT	Kefiykhta		Aslan name
WU	Heakhafaw		Aslan name
WV	Etakhasoa		Aslan name
WW	Aktifao
WX	Uistilao
WX	Uistilrao		Aslan name
WY	Ftahtuak		Aslan name
WY	Ustral Quadrant
WZ	Canopus
W0	Aldebaran
W1	Neworld
W2	Langere
W3	Drakken
W4	Lorspane
W5	Porlock
W6	Kidunal
W7	Treece
XS	Hkakhaeaw		Aslan name
XT	Esai'yo			Aslan name
XU	Waroatahe
XV	Karleaya
XW	Stahaia'yo		Aslan name
XW	Staihaia'yo
XX	Iwahfuah
XY	Dark Nebula
XY	I'aheako		Aslan name
XZ	Magyar
X0	Solomani Rim
X1	Alpha Crucis
X2	Spica
X3	Phlask
X4	Centrax
X5	Wrenton
X6	Folgore
X7	Avereguar
YS	Khaeaw			Aslan name
YT	Faoheiroi'iyhao		Aslan name
YU	Ftaoiyekyu
YV	Afawahisa
YW	Hlakhoi
YW	Hlakoi			Aslan name
YX	Ealiyasiyw
YY	Aeitle Sakh		Aslan name
YY	Reaver's Deep
YZ	Daibei
Y0	Diaspora
Y1	Old Expanses (aka "The Old Expanses")
Y2	Hinterworlds
Y3	Leonidae
Y4	Extolian
Y4	Krurrihkugr		K'kree name
Y5	Gnoghikt!		K'kree name
Y5	Ricenden
Y6	Blaskon
Y6	Okteekrul		K'kree name
Y7	Hkimbiipam		K'kree name
Y7	Nooq
Y8	Gzektixk		K'kree name
Z0	Massila
ZS	Theta Borealis
ZT	Iykhaiser		Aslan name
ZT	Theron
ZU	Iphigenaia
ZU	Kyatulyare'		Aslan name
ZV	Touchstone
ZV	Weasuirlaoa		Aslan name
ZW	Iiyoihuakh		Aslan name
ZW	Riftspan Reach
ZW	Riftspan Reaches
ZX	Khtiyhkokaeiw		Aslan name
ZX	Verge
ZY	Ilelish
ZY	Illelish
ZZ	Zarushagar
Z0	Massilia
Z1	Delphi
Z2	Glimmerdrift Reaches
Z3	Crucis Margin
Z4	Kaa G!'kul		K'kree name
Z5	Gzirr!k'l		K'kree name
Z6	K'trekreer		K'kree name
Z7	Nuughe			K'kree name
Z8	N!!krumbiix		K'kree name
0R	Chiep Zhez		Zhodani name
0S	Astron
0S	Shiants			Zhodani name
0T	Chtedrdia		Zhodani name
0T	Fulani
0U	Steblenzh		Zhodani name
0U	Telehfaeikh		Aslan name
0U	Vanguard Reaches
0V	Beyond (aka "The Beyond")
0V	Lerlairaii		Aslan name
0V	Zhdiakltatl		Zhodani name
0W	Hlaoirloahaurl		Aslan name
0W	Idrflanta		Zhodani name
0W	Trojan Reach
0X	Bransakral		Zhodani name
0X	Reft Sector
0Y	Gushemege
0Z	Dagudashaag
00	Core
01	Fornast
02	Ley Sector
03	Gateway
04	Luretiir!girr		K'kree name
05	X'kug			K'kree name
06	Kilong			K'kree name
07	Bar'kakr		K'kree name
08	Mighabohk		K'kree name
1R	Tsadra Davr		Zhodani name
1S	Tsadra			Zhodani name
1T	Yiklerzdanzh		Zhodani name
1U	Afachtiabr		Zhodani name
1U	Far Frontiers
1V	Foreven
1V	Iakr			Zhodani name
1W	Spinward Marches (aka "The Spinward Marches")
1W	Tloql			Zhodani name
1X	Deneb
1X	Nieklsdia		Zhodani name
1Y	Corridor
1Z	Vland
10	Lishun
11	Antares
12	The Empty Quarter
13	Star's End
14	Gh!hken			K'kree name
15	Ruupiin			K'kree name
16	Raakaan			K'kree name
17	Uuk			K'kree name
18	Gnaa Iimb'kr		K'kree name
2R	Pliabriebl		Zhodani name
2S	Eiaplial		Zhodani name
2T	Zhdant			Zhodani name
2T	Zhodane
2U	Tienspevnekr		Zhodani name
2V	Ziafrplians		Zhodani name
2W	Briakqra'		Zhodani name
2W	Gvurrdon
2X	Dravr			Zhodani name
2X	Tuglikki (aka "Tulikki")
2Y	Provence
2Z	The Windhorn
20	Meshan
21	Mendan
22	Amdukan
23	Ingukrax		K'kree name
24	Gn'hk'r			K'kree name
25	Gur			K'kree name
26	Un'k!!'ng		K'kree name
27	Xaagr			K'kree name
28	Eekrookrigz		K'kree name
3R	Brieplanz		Zhodani name
3S	Sidiadl			Zhodani name
3T	Zdiedeiant		Zhodani name
3U	Stiatlchepr		Zhodani name
3V	Itvikiastaf		Zhodani name
3W	Knoellighz
3W	Tlabrieish		Zhodani name
3X	Dhuerorrg
3X	Knoellighz
3X	Tazhdapl		Zhodani name
3Y	Ngathksirz
3Z	Fa Dzaets
30	Gzaekfueg
31	Lloellerz
32	Rukhs Dall
32	Trenchans
33	Ktiin'gzat		K'kree name
34	Mugheen't		K'kree name
35	Grikr!ng		K'kree name
36	Ukaarriit!!b		K'kree name
37	Kring Noor		K'kree name
38	Mbi!!gh			K'kree name
4R	Viajlefliez		Zhodani name
4S	Bleblqansh		Zhodani name
4T	Driasera		Zhodani name
4U	Dalchie Jdatl		Zhodani name
4W	Anzsidiadl		Zhodani name
4W	Ghoekhnael
4X	Ghoekhnael
4X	Ksinanirz
4X	Zheranzanj		Zhodani name
4Y	Zao Kfeng Ig Grilokh
4Z	Knaeleng
40	Kharrthon
41	Oeghz Vaerrghr
42	Kfazz Ghik
5R	Stinj Tianz		Zhodani name
5S	Bliardlie		Zhodani name
5T	Zhiensh			Zhodani name
5U	Savria			Zhodani name
5V	Datsatl			Zhodani name
5W	Ianshaplzdier		Zhodani name
5X	Zhiaqrqiats		Zhodani name
5Y	Rzakki
5Z	Listanaya

(sorry about the spelling variations etc, I'm still editing the data
now that I've go it entered from the CT Alien modules)

>>If we can agree on what sort of tests to run, then IG can *have* a copy
>>of the program. It'd be easier than counting on a human proofreader for
>>all that data. Think of it as a "spell checker" for sectors.
>
> Consider adding the ability to check whether you have a high tech scrunge
> world near a low tech paradise.  This would involve some kind of clustering
> algorithm, but would be really handy.

It happens. Compare Hong Kong or Taiwan to the surrounding areas in the
China Sea.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1379
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 29 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1380



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: FS/M:0 data
multiple names (>4)
Re: Extreme Law Levels (was RE: FS/M0 Data)
Re: "Smart" guns
Re: Jump/ long
Yanks in space!
Re: FFS 2
Re: Sector Data
Re: Sector Data
Re: First Thoughts On Marc's FS Data
Re: Living expenses
Re: Starports
Re: Living expenses
Robots/Vampire Fleets
Re: Extreme Law Levels
FF&S and laser design
May THUDDD results (3rd try)
FS trade classifications
Re: MM's FS Data.
Re: First Thoughts On Marc's FS Data
Re: FS/M0 Data

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 09:32:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Re: FS/M:0 data

>Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 17:05:24 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
>Subject: Re: FS/M0 Data

>> From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
>>
>> I have just recieved my copy of the amended Sector data from Marc this
>> morning, overall, a very good redo. Here are my first impressions.

>>The columns are in a different order from the DGP data...
>>much silly software tweaking I must do. Otherwise, it's great.

>> I see some Scout Bases, but NO Naval Bases.  Are there Naval bases in 
Year
>> 0?

>ant     0605    Nerim Gaa.      E336000-2       Ba      N       003 
            M2 V

>Isn't that a Naval base?

Whoops, didnt see that, mostly I was looking at Core sector.
I decided to do a text search for "N" in the document.  I discovered that 
there are Naval bases accounted for in the following sectors:  Antares, 
Corridor, Delphi, Fornast, and Gushemege.

Commander X

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 13:25:20 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: multiple names (>4)

Whilst on the subject of multiple occurances of world names, I've found the
following.  Once again I'm not suggesting that these are 'wrong' or should
be changed, or can't be explained, I just thought it was interesting.
(well you know what I mean!)

I *think* this is every occurance of five or more occurances.

5 'Vlir' (and a Vlur)
5 'Nir' (and 2 Nin)
5 'Lar' (and 2 Lap)
5 'Lan' (and 3 Lam)
5 'Kuush' (and a Kuusha, Kuushi, and Kuushii)
5 'Kis' (and a Kisa)
5 'Gash' (and a couple of Gashi)
5 'Din' (and 2 Dim and a Dini)

6 'Gish' (and a Gishar)
6 'Gan' (a 2 'Gaan' and a Gane)
6 'Gam' (and a Gamma)

7 'Shar' (and a Shap)
7 'Mar' (and a Man)
7 'Kim' (and 2 Kiin)

8 'Nar' (and a Nan)  - two Nars are in the *sub*sector, B of Gushemege
8 'Lir' (and a Liir)

9 'Gar' (and a Gap)

10 Kar (and a Kap)

13 'Khar' (and 3 Khark)
13 'Kir' [1] (and 7 Kiir and 3 Khir)

And the winner by a whisker:

14 'Gir' (and 4 Giir)

I'll forward this list to TravLang as well.  Should these names remain as
they are, they might wish to consider meanings for such words.  If 'Gir'
means, for example, 'rock', it would make more sense than if it meant
'chocolate mousse'.  Although, then again.....

tc
"I really ought to find better ways to spend my lunch break."

PS There's also the delightful 'Kiiii' and 'Kiiiip'



[1] Which will please a friend of mine called that no end!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 00:46:25 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Extreme Law Levels (was RE: FS/M0 Data)

At 13:00 29/05/97 +0100, you wrote:
>>Then one day on a law level H planet we saw a police officer
>>_in_Battle_Dress_ kill a tresspasser with his bare gauntleted hands &
>>some of us had brains splattered all over us.  The other players were
>>quickly converted to my "Don't go to planets with letters for a law
>>level" point of view.
>
>Actually that sounds more like a law level 1-2 planet were the police need
>battle dress to stay alive and can do just about anything with their
>arrestees.
>Law level H is (IMHO) more like "you receive a letter/e-mail ordering you
>to go to the nearest suicide center as there has been a slight demand
>increase in your bloodtype organs".
>
>Law level measures the number and pickiness of laws not the brutality of
>law enforcement which generally tend to be inversely proportional to law
>level.
>
Tell that to ex-citizens of the ex-Soviet Union.


R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 00:39:51 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: "Smart" guns

At 12:25 29/05/97 +0200, you wrote:
>Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>> 
>> Only the law-abiding. The criminals are already criminals, so what's a few
>> more years if you're caught?
>
>How about execution?

The problem here being that presumably there'd be a similar penalty for
murder, so you just kill all the whitnesses as it won't make things any
worse than they already are.

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 06:24:17 +0000
From: "Tim Reynolds" <tim@premier1.premier.net>
Subject: Re: Jump/ long

> [snip]
> > I have to agree and and disagree with, Brett.   He is right that a Jump
> > Infantry would be used for a holding action or raid type mission.  But I
> > cant agree that they would be chewed up, messed up yes and not very happy
> > but they could do their mission for two reasons.  1) The element of surprise
> > would mean that they would face only light resistance and  unorganized
> > counter attacks.  This would allow them to hold their objectives until
> > relived.  2) Technology would also play a major role by 3rd Imperium  man
> > portable plamsa weapons and other heavy support weapons will be aviable.
> > Even our 21 centary war program are developing such weapons.
> 
> hmm, but if the attacker has such weaposn available, and all things being
> equal, then the defender would to, and the defender would have more - ie
> the JTroopers are toast.
> 
> *Unless*, they are a premptive attack before a major assault and backed
> up quickly, or a hit and run strike for other objectives (there only on
> the ground for an hour at most).
> 
> Also, in the context of a major war (Third Imperium vs Solomani for eg) then
> tactical surprise would be the best to be achieved, strategic surprise
> would be out the window, because any defending commander worth anything
> would have to consider that if an invasion is immnient, then JTroopers will
> probably be involved.
> 
>
This may or may not be the case depending on what you call Strategic. 
A well thought out plan can achive not only Tatical but Grand Tatical 
and Operational Surprise.

Ex
Perrisan(sp) Gulf
D Day
Barbrossa(sp)
Invasion of France 1939
Opening Days of WWI and other minor battles
Franco German War
Lee's Advances into the north
Stonewall Jackson defense of north west VI
Several Victories by Napeleon
 Ligny
 Ulm
 Crossing of the Alps
Vally Forge

Thats as far back as my memory takes me this morinning, but given 
time I could come up with more probably from Queen Ann's War and I 
never even made it into the Classical years.

The point here is that a Cmder with understrength force can if he 
picks or in the case of D day and others controls the situation can 
achive alot.  And Yes Jump Infantry has its operational limits just 
as all forces do. Iwouldnt want to take a Grav Tank into a swap or 
mountain train, no matter how advanced they are they will not be used 
to their best advantage.

Tim

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 09:37:49 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Yanks in space!

First off, having spent the early part of my misspent youth south of the
Mason-Dixon Line, I take some offense at the term "Yanks in Space."  :-)

Second, part of the beauty of a space game is that cultures vary.  One
planet makes H.B. Piper's Texas planet look tame, another can have a very
homogenous, laid back population that complains that the best Swedish films
are no longer made in Sweden (An acutal complaint made by a Stockhold local
that I heard while over there last year).


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
"In 1991, [Vice President] Gore cited Bush's China policy as a reason he 
should be defeated for reelection, charging Bush sent his emissaries to 
toast the butchers of Tiananmen Square.'" -- Deborah Orin in the New York 
Post, March 26, 1997, the day after Gore drank champagne with Chinese 
Premier Li Peng, who helped plan the Tiananmen massacre
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 09:44:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: FFS 2

So why not post or FTP the manuscript so people can look and comment?

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 09:44:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Sector Data

In a message dated 97-05-29 03:06:29 EDT, you write:

> 
>  BTW, Marc, are you willing to change stellar classifications?  I have not
>  gotten the data yet, so I am figuring out what I want to do with it. <g>

Precisely what do you mean?

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 09:44:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Sector Data

In a message dated 97-05-29 02:40:05 EDT, you write:

> Sure is Marc, but some people not interested in this Thread might get 
>  angry about "having to download stuff they are not interested in".

That logically implies that this list should be a separate list for each
thread within it. There's always something which won't appeal to someone. But
do we split off each time that happens?

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 09:44:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: First Thoughts On Marc's FS Data

In a message dated 97-05-29 01:54:24 EDT, you write:

> Gelinas strongly recommends
>  that Barren worlds be changed to TL0, which also needs to be performed for
>  this data set.

What if the world had a colonizing body or a research station or even a
non-human race who once lived there, but don't any more, and left behind
ruins or installations. Wouldn't that justify a UWP something like E678000-7
Ba.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 09:44:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Living expenses

In a message dated 97-05-29 03:35:55 EDT, you write:

> In another posting someone suggests $3 per credit.
>  >Does that fit better? Anyway, what I was asking was whether the '1 part
for
>  >food, 1 part for lodging, and 1 part for other expenses' fits your own
>  >budget. It fits mine and most of the dozen people I asked about it some
>  >years ago.

In 1977, I used $1 per credit. Look what inflation over 20 years has done.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 09:44:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Starports

In a message dated 97-05-28 21:37:04 EDT, you write:

> 
>          So, is this the ultimate fix for the absence of X starports in
first
>  Survey? The "X" and "E" starports are merged, and called "E"?
>  
>          Carlos
>  

X always meant Red Zone. Interdicted World. That really applies to the
Imperium of 1100. It was possible for a world to have a starport and still be
a Red Zone, and there was no way to define what facility there was present.

In 1100, that really didn't matter. In multiple milieux, it makes a
difference.

Now, a world may have an A starport and someone could interdict it and make
it a Red Zone. But the A class starport remains in place, even if unused.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 08:53:00 -0500
From: Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com>
Subject: Re: Living expenses

I just had an idea:

	Since a Credit is based on the mentary value of one hour's worth of
work, why don't we just base it on the minimum wage of the country or
whatever? That would give us 1 ImpCr = $4.75 US. I personally make it by
on about $1300/month, which would work out to 275 CrI, more or less.
Since this figure above is without food, rent, utilities, etc., it seems
pretty reasonable to me. Variances between city/rural life and expenses
can be explained via analogy with the way the value of a Cr varies world
to world with tech level and starport type. This would reflect the
effect of industry on the economy, as well as the increased expense of
living in higher population areas. 

	Thoughts?

Ryan Christensen
litefoot@feist.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 09:55:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Robots/Vampire Fleets

Hi,

Who has a copy of Vampire Fleets? What are the robot construction rules
like? Are they very different from Book 8?

Also, if anyone in Toronto has a copy, would you be willing to
photocopy the appropriate section for me? Heck, you could even fax
it to me, it's a local call...

Anyways, thanks,
Ethan
- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:09:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: Extreme Law Levels

> > ile 3209    Gimem . E7AA8DH-5   Wa      200     M3 V
> > Uh, what's that 'H' at the end of the UWP??? A law level of 'H'??
> > (That is Law level, isn't it?) 
> 
> Yes that is the law level of this planet & it is a legitimate law level
> for a type D government.  It would have required a roll of 11 on the 
> (2d6 -7 + Gov(14)) table but it is correct.
> 
> MT's Referee Manual (pg 25) says that the following combinations of
> government and law level will automatically result in the following
> travel zones:

Sometimes someone gives you a much bigger & better answer than you
possibly expected. Cool. It's a nasty, brutish planet indeed.
Exotic atmosphere, totally covered in liquid, hundreds of millions
of inhabitants, a brutal government with a highly repressive, nay,
opressive law level. Don't stop there, don't even slow down going by...

Ethan
- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 09:46:38 -0600
From: Jeff Schmidt <jschmidt@netco.com>
Subject: FF&S and laser design

I'm having a bugger of a time designing man-portable lasers with FF&S.  I'm
not doing something right, since I can't manage to come close to any laser
statistics from the books (it hinges on range and intensity calculations).
Is there a step-by-step resource somewhere that I can check against?  Or
would someone be kind enough to look at my steps and tell me where I'm
being dumb?

Thanks!

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Schmidt                         | NetCo Communications Corporation
software engineer, Mac development   | 333 N. Washington Ave. Ste. 102
(612) 519-0878                       | Minneapolis MN 55401, USA
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 07:45:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: May THUDDD results (3rd try)

[I *think* I've solved the mail problem that stopped copies 1 and 2 of
this from reaching the list.  Fingers crossed...]

Our overall THUDDD 4 winner is...

  Terrapin Exploratory Merchant Cruiser (SSDS/FFS)
  Gridlore Technologies, Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>

...continuing the Berry family dynasty established in April's THUDDD 3
competition.  Will June break the relentless Berry stranglehold on the
THUDDD?  Stay tuned for exciting developments!

A more detailed version of this post will appear Real Soon Now on
both the mailing lists and the THUDDD website, featuring Doug's full
design, designer info for all the winning ships listed below, and so
forth.  But I wanted to get this out tonight just so people could
celebrate, cry, or otherwise react ASAP.

OVERALL DESIGN:
1.  2.60 - Terrapin
2.  3.17 - Type 1108
3.  4.00 - Ming

USABILITY IN A GAME:
1.  3.17 - Recollet
2.  3.60 - Anderson
 t  3.60 - Terrapin

CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS:
1.  3.00 - Encounter
2.  3.50 - Type 1108
3.  3.60 - Terrapin

EFFICIENCY:
1.  2.40 - Terrapin
2.  3.17 - Type 1108
3.  3.40 - Ming

UNUSUALNESS:
1.  2.40 - Ming
2.  3.00 - Type 1108
3.  3.60 - Terrapin

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 15:53:12 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: FS trade classifications

Here are the frequencies of all the different trade classifications for the
5921 worlds of the first survey data.  I've added a few odd comments.

I've ignored the fact that 'As' should not have a 'Va' code in addition and
simply listed them 'as is'.

May I put in a bid for the return to 2 letter classification as well
please!

tc
timothy.collinson@solent.ac.uk



876 Ba (i.e. nearly 15% of all worlds have no one living on them)
426 Lo
283 Po Lo
255 Lo Va
268 Ag Ni
227 Ni
170 no remarks
163 Wa Lo
138 Po Ba
119 Va Ba
107 Lo Fl


96 Wa Ba
95 Po De Lo
90 Hi
89 Ni Po
82 Ag
82 In Hi
69 Fl Ba
65 Ni Wa


These categories account for less than 1% of all worlds:

56 As Lo Va
55 Po De Ba
54 Na Va
51 Ni Va
48 As Va Ba
44 Ni Fl
44 Ni Po De
40 De Lo
39 Ic Lo Va
38 Ri
36 Na Po
33 Fl
33 Ic Lo
33 Ag Ri
33 Po          (perhaps they could unite in a club of some sort, poor
planets unite!)
31 Na Ni Po
30 Na
29 Ag Ni Ri
29 Na In Hi Va
29 Na Ni Va
29 Wa
26 Ic Ba
24 Na Ni
22 De Ba
19 Ic Va Ba
19 Na Ni As Va
19 Na Po De
18 Ni De
17 Na Po Hi
16 Na In As Hi Va
16 Wa Hi
15 Ni Ri
13 Na In Hi
12 Ni As Va
12 Po De
11 Na As Va
10 De
10 Hi Fl
10 Na In Po Hi
10 Po Hi
7 In Wa Hi
7 Na Ni Po De
7 Na Po De Hi
7 Ri Wa
6 Na Ic Va
6 Na In Po De Hi
6 Na Ni Ic
6 Ni Ic Va
6 Ni Ri Wa

Now we're down to less than 0.1%:

5 In Po Hi
5 Ni Ic
5 Wa Lo Fl
4 Ic
4 Na Ic
4 Po De Hi
4 Ri De
3 Ni Ri De
3 Ni Wa Fl
2 De Hi
2 In Po De Hi
2 Na In Ic Hi
2 Wa Fl Ba
1 In Ic Hi  (this must be 'special' or an error as it's not allowed by the
rules IIRC)
1 Na In Ic Hi Va  (again, I didn't think In and Ic were allowed together)
1 Na Ni Ic Va
1 Wa Fl

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:02:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Re: MM's FS Data.

Greetings,

More things found in the FS text file...

Worlds mentioned in M:0 and in the M:0 FS map have been renamed, changed or 
ommitted in the new map.

Such worlds include Shudusham, Fornol(Important for Shudusham Concords), 
Cordova, and Santry.  (Strangly Enough "Keshi" with its aparently blasted 
population,  of the Chanestin Kingdom is still there!).

Please do not forget these worlds in the next version, as they are important 
historical storyline worlds.

Ever Vigilant...
Commander X

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 08:50:14 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: First Thoughts On Marc's FS Data

CardSharks@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 97-05-29 01:54:24 EDT, you write:
> 
> What if the world had a colonizing body or a research station or even a
> non-human race who once lived there, but don't any more, and left behind
> ruins or installations. Wouldn't that justify a UWP something like E678000-7
> Ba.

No. If I understand your reasoning correctly, then that would
justify a UWP of something like E678084-7. If you say that it's okay
to have a Tech Level factor which is not tied to population, then
it's logical to assume that the government and law level need not be
tied to population either.

So, if these three factors are not tied to population, then what about
worlds where the current culture is not the most advanced one? Let's
suppose there's a world where an advanced culture has bombed its way
to the stone age. Is the TL digit based on current technology or
what was once possible? Your logic seems to state that it would be
based on what was once possible, so you could end up with a TL9 world
where the actual population uses stone knives and bearskins. This
makes the TL digit meaningless as far as interpreting world cultures
goes.

The way I run things, if population is zero, then so is government,
LL and TL. If there are ruins of a former race there, I'd just say
so in the notes.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:05:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brett Fishburne <bfish@atlantech.net>
Subject: Re: FS/M0 Data

Great description!  However, I thought this was a platonic society?

There is a benevolent dictator who is risen to godhood after his death.  The
ancients are revered and people are all test tube kids.  Two individuals
zygotes are "harvested" based on the predetermined genetic needs of the
population.  The children are gestated in incubators then raised in a
communal "training" center where they learn their life's work.  The children
are also taught (read indoctrinated) the rigors of society and the nature of
their role in that society.  Every individuals career is determined before
birth and the child is brought up to perform this task.

There is no economic system as everything is communal and the society
operates like a fine machine.  Tourists are extremely limited and
individuals are neither allowed to enter nor leave this society.  The
members of society are quite happy in their roles as needed members of the
community.

New technologies are generated by a special group of scientists and then new
individuals are "developed" to implement the new technology.  Thus, most
individuals are quite fearfull of the new and unexplained -- it simply
doesn't happen in their society.


At 05:38 PM 5/28/97 -0700, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>At 05:44 PM 5/28/97 -0400, Ethan wrote:
>
>>ile 3209    Gimem . E7AA8DH-5   Wa      200     M3 V
>>
>>Uh, what's that 'H' at the end of the UWP??? A law level of 'H'??
>>(That is Law level, isn't it?)
>
>Yup.  That's a law level alrighty! A mighty big one too!  Law 17, with a
>religious dictatorship, and an exotic atomosphere..
>
>OK, the planet is run by an elite minority who control the ability to
>repair the TL9 life support systems.  This has become a religion over the
>years, with strict controls enforced during Twilight as Solomani support
>faded away and left the world stranded.  Every aspect of life is controled,
>from cradle to grave.  The Adims decide what you learn, who you make with,
>and what you do every day.  Rebellion is punished by being publically
>shoved out of the airlock into "hell."  
>
>The religion focuses around the belief that they are in fact in purgatory,
>and will someday be redeemed.  When the PC's arrive, they will be seen as
>emissaries from God.  The Adims will *not* be pleased to find out otherwise..
>
>That's just off the top of my head.
>--
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
>|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
>|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
>|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
>|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
>|   "Wide unclasp the tables of their thoughts    |
>|  These same thoughts people this little World"  |
>|      - inscription on a stained glass window,   |
>|        found in the Winchester Mystery House.   |
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1380
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 29 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1381



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Speed, Relativity & such (fwd)
Re: "Smart" guns
Re: FS-Data Starport Distribution
Smart Guns
FS/M0 Data
Re: Starport Distribution in FS-M0
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1376
Lasing down jump troops
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1377
X and E ports
Re: The Code Duello [was More EA Nits]
Re: Speed, Relativity & such
Re: Extreme Law Levels
Re: Starports
Re: Robots/Vampire Fleets
Re: FFS 2
Re: X and E ports
Re: Sector Data
Re: First Survey Spectrography
Re: FS-Data Starport Distribution

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 08:27:45 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Speed, Relativity & such (fwd)

On Thu, 29 May 1997, Jim Choate wrote:

> Consider, a photon from it's own perspective is everywhere in the universe
> at the same time.

- -a light dawns- omigawd "Bukaroo Banzai" actually makes SENSE!!!

"No matter where you go...there you are"

It's a Zen Physics Koan

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:28:21 +0200
From: Per Bernhardsson <bard@ludd.luth.se>
Subject: Re: "Smart" guns

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
> At 12:25 29/05/97 +0200, you wrote:
> >Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> >>
> >> Only the law-abiding. The criminals are already criminals, so what's a few
> >> more years if you're caught?
> >
> >How about execution?
> 
> The problem here being that presumably there'd be a similar penalty for
> murder, so you just kill all the whitnesses as it won't make things any
> worse than they already are.

Ok, this is going a bit overboard here, but there are many different
types of death sentences... Like "death by torture", "death by lethal
injection"... I know that if I had a choice I'd prefer a painless death
instead of a painful one. Now, I just hope I don't have to make that
choice though.

 / Per

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 08:23:03 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: FS-Data Starport Distribution

On Wed, 28 May 1997, Joseph Chepe Lockett wrote:

> More tidbits from my ongoing analysis of Marc Miller's machine-readable
> First Survey data. 
> 
> I tried a starport distribution as well, with some odd results.  Some of
> the strangeness comes from the presence of ports on barren worlds without
> any population, or on very low-tech and/or low-population planets. 

No problem...these are world that have lost contact and the starport crews
were withdrawn when it was no longer economically vialble to keep the
place open due to the lack of traffic. I suspect that the facilities were
either A) stripped of useful stuff, or B) mothballed in order to wait out
the 'temporary financial crisis' that the beginning of the Long Night most
certainly was viewed or at least propagandized as. I would suspecyt that
these facilities will actually reach their status as A or B starports only
after they're started up and restocked. BUt it's really nice to have a
pre-built infrastructure there to exploit as you expand, so I suspect that
places like this will be among the first (after ports on highly populated
worlds) to be refurbished and brought back on line.
 
The presence of such places on worlds of otherwise low tech would imply
that the world originally was just a ROM resupply and refurb base; I
suspect that a large number of the ROM starports were originally temporary
forward bases put up by the Terran Navy, that just grew into ramshackle
permanent structures...look at many of the small airstrips or ports around
the world, and how many of them date from temporary WWII stuff. 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 08:45:12 -0700
From: Brad Urwiller <ravyn@ptw.com>
Subject: Smart Guns

Okay you'll probably recognize this from Shadowrun but here's what I
envision of a 'smart'gun.  

Depending on wether you want it visible or not you have two basic
versions.

HARD
Conduction glove
Goggles
Small Processor

SLICK
Implanted Subdermal conduction pads in palm and finger tips.
Implanted Processor unit.  (You pick the spot).
EDDU (Eye Data Display Unit).
	-Consists either of a direct connection to optic nerve or a 	 laser
bouncing images off the retina.

The result being that a 'smart'gun can relay information to the user
about its disposition, status, ect.

The user now has full access to where the gun is aimed (within a small
cone of probability error 8) ).  He would also know how many rounds are
left in the gun (or power levels).  

All in all I imagine that such a gadget would confer a small bonus to
the user.  Perhaps a +1 or 2 at anything up to medium range.

Brad
ravyn@ptw.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 16:06:49 GMT
From: "J." <Jonathan@hccm.co.uk>
Subject: FS/M0 Data

[Lurk mode off]

I have just downloaded a copy of the First Survey data from Joe Heck's web
page.
I read the data into a database and started running a few tests to check
the data. Two things I've found so far are:

1) There are four hex's in massilia that contain two systems each.
mas 0720    Khiian Ark .    A100348-D   LoPop Va    424 K9 III M5 D    
mas 0720    Kuamirar .      A100362-E   LoPop Va    224 F5 V           
mas 2503    Iishma Ash.     C3225A7-8   Ni Po       114 G3 V           
mas 2503    Vluund  .       C322888-8   Na Po       214 M2 II M8 D     
mas 2506    Khegshesaup.    C434334-A   LoPop       223 G0 V           
mas 2506    Vlin .          B434110-A   LoPop       723 G4 V M6 D      
mas 2508    Iinarla.        B100786-C   Na Va       502 K1 V M2 D      
mas 2508    Khiiir.         B100200-C   LoPop Va    702 M7 VI M2 D     

Then I looked at my DGP data and noticed that there were two systems in
each of
these hex's in that data as well. Eg.

mas 0720    Rellam          A100321-G   Ni Va       924 K9 III M5 D
mas 0720    Amaya           A100321-G   Ni Va       924 F5 V

The stella data is the same as above (ie. Rellam matches Khiin ark etc etc.)

I haven't had chance to check the data in the back of Knightfall yet.

2) I thought the highest tech level in M0 was 12? (I may be wrong)
There are 90 worlds in the data with techlevels of D or E, scattered around
the 9 sectors. (If anyone wants a list drop me an email).

Thats it so far.

J.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:35:24 +0100 (BST)
From: Eamon Patrick Watters <E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Starport Distribution in FS-M0

Jason Anderson sent:


>I have to disagree. There should be very few starports of class A (since
>Sylea is supposed to be the only world to maintain one through the long
>night), and most will be centered in the Core sector. Maybe around 50-100
>class A starports? Even that may be too high.

The problem is that this ignores a lot of historical information in the 
M0 book itself, i.e. The Compeditors of the Sylean Empire: The Chanestin 
Kingdom and the Interstellar Confederacy. In order to be compeditors they 
HAVE to be able to construct Starships. No Interstellar Government in the 
Traveller sense is possible without an economy supported, and systems 
defended by jump ships. 1500+ year-old relic ships do not exist. 

Eamon.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:12:01 +0100 (BST)
From: Eamon Patrick Watters <E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1376

On Wed, 28 May 1997, Traveller-digest wrote:

> 
> Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 19:51:39 +0300
> From: "Hakan Koseoglu" <hkose@rorqual.cc.metu.edu.tr>
> Subject: Re: Jump troops
> 
> > And what about using higher accel for the 5 minutes? Note that you
> > don't really hit atmosphere until less that 1000 km. 
> For earth, this is not quite accurate in my opinion. You do not hit
> atmosphere until less than 200 km. Typical Shuttle operations are
> performed at about 450 km altitude. Many spy sattelites operate well under
> 200 km and can operate for at least half a month. Minimum practical limit
> is about 180 km where atmosphere friction definitely makes a problem in
> long term.
> 
> Therefore you can have much higher speed, wasting all the energy in the
> atmosphere with 1 g, if you use propulsion, much faster but you have to
> have much better heat shields because heat developed will be tremendous.
> 
> Also if you are entering atmosphere from orbit, you will have a very very
> great horizontal speed which would cause you to travel quite a distance
> parallel to surface until you waste that energy as friction, thus heat.
> 
Why not cancel the orbital velocity with those great Traveller thrusters and
'fall' down.

When I reas Starship troopers I got the impression that the troopships 
cancelled their orbital velocity and then just ejected the troops.

Eamon.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 09:32:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tony Zbaraschuk <tonyz@eskimo.com>
Subject: Lasing down jump troops

Actually, I just had an idea for a jump-troop defense.

Forget stealth.  They're ablating their pods to brake against the
atmosphere.   This will be visible a continent away.  And they'll
be on a predictable course.

This means that a laser beam can lock right onto them.  Say, a starship 
laser cannon with ROF 800.  Fire one pulse per target, which will 
almost certainly kill it.  Have a network of these things set up
across your continent, and _wham_.  Barbecued jump-troopers.

Of course, you'll need a laser frequency that won't go plasmatic in
the atmosphere, but any jump-trooper in line-of-sight is dead.
You'll need the money to erect the defense net, too, which means
that low-tech or low-pop worlds probably won't have one.
But attacking a hi-tech hi-pop world with jump-troopers is a very 
bad idea.


Tony Z

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:49:41 -0400
From: Thomas Walter Trelenberg <tomt@scri.fsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1377

Twas written:

>useless. How then, without using something akin to psionic >precognition, can
>you plot a safe course?
>
>Garry


My opinion on the subject (not necessarily the universally correct
answer--end disclaimer).  It would seem that the only way navigation
could be carried out while at relativistic speeds would be to have a
very good idea of the conditions of the ship and its position while it
was still non-relativistic, apply the length contraction and time
dialation equations that have been posted and compare what you observe
"out the window" with what you expect to see as predicted by the
equations and initial conditions.  The initial conditions won't change,
so any discrepency would have to be handled by perturbing the variables
(like time and position) and iterating until the perdiction matches the
observation.

Which leads to an interesting adventure scenerio (or two).  Since proper
navigation relies on correct initial conditions:

- --A sabotuer installs a virus (not TNE) into the computer which randomly
changes some of the initial values.  If the changes are not caught....

- --A fugative/hijacker doesn't need to take over the ship to get where he
wants to go (provided he is knowledgable about the initail conditions
database and how it is used for nav).  He specifically alters the
variables so that the predicted value match the course HE wants set. 
upon arriving in the system he intended, he acts as an irrate passenger
whos sick mother awaits him at the original destination and demands hes
passage back along with some compensation....due to this "blunder"
caused by "crew incompetance".

Of course there will be somputer subroutines designed to detect such
tamperings.....

could be fun.....comments

TT

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 13:09:41 -0400
From: Thomas Walter Trelenberg <tomt@scri.fsu.edu>
Subject: X and E ports

>The problem with X-ports is that all appear on interdicted worlds. It >seems
>a bit odd that all solar system in the Imperium are worthy of E-ports
>unless E-ports are really basic.
>
>My E-ports is a flat landing pad of ferrocrete or some such and a radio
>transponder that (as all ship transponders) react to navradars. The
>transponder logs all communication and now and then a Scout will come >by
>and download the log to assist in locating misjumped ships, tracking >down
>pirates etc. There's no extrality fence but the area is still Imperial
>property.
>
>
>/Anders Backman

Pehaps there should be an E- type port---a port which is not "E" because
there is no beacon, but a safe landing location is known (where the
scouts set down when surveying the worlds surface) and its coordinates
are published.

X ports could be where no attempt was made to land (orbital survey only)
or where no suitable LZ could be found.

TT

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 97 18:32 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: The Code Duello [was More EA Nits]

In-Reply-To: <337B85CB.16A3@well.com>

> 2.  Is armor permitted under the Code Duello?  What forms?  
> Covering what?  Powered or not?  Who chooses?

I would have thought armour would not be allowed - this is supposed to 
be a test of skill and courage.

> 3.  Women in the Imperium have total equality with men as a 
> matter of law (and longstanding canon).  Noblewomen will therefore 
> participate in the conventions of duelling.  How does this affect 
> the subject, if at all?  N.B. your comments:

IMHO, women are officially equal, but are often treated specially. Men 
are less likely to challenge a woman than another man, for example.

> 4.  The Vilani probably don't participate in duels.  They'd be 

Well, they're less likely to challenge someone, but they'd still be 
expected to respond if challenged (although they'd probably take more 
care not to insult the other person in the first place).

> more likely to have a meeting, maybe refer the matter to 
> mediation or arbitration, or, in the case of a really grave 
> insult, commence a lawsuit.  How does this affect the standing 
> of Vilani nobles at court?  There are perhaps some adventure 

Lawyers at dawn!

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:47:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Speed, Relativity & such

> Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 23:57:30 +0000
> From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
> 
> On this note, I have a question.  As you get closer the light speed, doesn't
> the ship, at some point, begin to out run it's own active sensors?

Well, sort of.  It's a good question, which I'll try to address point by
point below.

> Not knowing the exact speed of a radar pulse,

In a vacuum, all electromagnetic radiation (which includes gamma-rays,
x-rays, ultraviolet, visible light, infrared, and radio) travel at c, the
speed of light, approximately 300,000 km/s.

> but I would assume that at some
> point the difference between the velocity of the emiting ship and the
> maximum velocity of the radar pulse will be so small, that it is rendered
> useless.

Here's where we get into the extreme weirdness that is Special Relativity. 
Light (including radar) *always* travels at c, *in any inertial reference
frame*.  So when you are travelling at 0.9 c (as measured relative to your
planet of departure, or nearby stars, or whatever), and you shine a
flashlight out in front of you, that beam travels out ahead of your ship
at c.  You could measure it, and that's the speed you'd get. 

However, if folks on your world of origin were watching you do this,
they'd see your flashlight beam moving out ahead of your ship at c in
*their* frame.  Since you are travelling at 0.9c in their frame, the light
would appear to outrun your ship by only 0.1c.

How to make these two measurements consistent is what SR is all about.  It
turns out that the observers back home will also notice that the clocks
aboard your ship appear to be running very slowly.  Since speed is just
distance over time, they will claim that your measurement of c is
distorted by the clock slow-down; that your 'seconds' are so long that
light can travel 300,000 km during one of them, even at a relative speed
of only 0.1c.

An additional odd effect of high speed is length contraction -- objects
actually get physically shorter in their direction of travel.  So your
homeworld observers will see meter-sticks aboard your ship (lined up with
the direction of travel as being much shorter than a 'real' meter.  So not
only are you measuring speed in long seconds, you're using short meters
too -- doubly cheating!  Conversely, from your shipboard point of view,
the entire outside universe is moving past *you* at 0.9c -- so the entire
universe is similarly contracted.  A star 1 parsec ahead of you as seen in
your origin-world's frame of reference appears only (say) 0.2 parsec ahead
in your frame.  That combined with time dilation is why you can travel to
the stars in less time than light takes to get there -- as measured in
your own frame.  Observers on the origin or destination worlds would still
see you taking more than d/c to get there.

> How then, without using something akin to psionic precognition, can
> you plot a safe course?

The short answer is that, at high enough speeds (say above 0.5c or so),
you probably can't.  Obstacles at this speed are both coming at you as
near-c kinetic kill missiles, *and* length-contracted toward you.  You'd
certainly only want to fly at near-c speeds well outside of star systems
(to avoid all the crud that ends up orbiting stars); beyond that, you'd
just say your prayers and count on the odds to protect you.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:03:33 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Extreme Law Levels

On Thu, 29 May 1997, Ethan Henry wrote:
 
> Sometimes someone gives you a much bigger & better answer than you
> possibly expected. Cool. It's a nasty, brutish planet indeed.
> Exotic atmosphere, totally covered in liquid, hundreds of millions
> of inhabitants, a brutal government with a highly repressive, nay,
> opressive law level. Don't stop there, don't even slow down going by...

Except that the oceans house a species of fish that produces an
exotic, impossible to synthesize toxin that is the basis of some very
valuable pharmaceutical agents, and so, the collected toxin is worth a
fortune.

ooops...maybe you shouldn't just pass by...;-) 

Hey!  I have an idea! lets put on a Show! errr contest. A near C doggie
bisquit to the winners, a la' THUDD, but we'll pick worlds out of FS or
Corrected FS with some of these weird numbers and develop library data for
'em. Detailed stuff like, exactly what IS the basis of this religion and
what DO they do to the inhabitants that's so opressive, and Why would
anyone in their right mind ever want to visit?

We can call it  the TML Huge World Assignment Program, or THWAP for short
;-) (All right, so I thought up the acronym first!) 

Any Takers?

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 14:15:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: Starports

>>          So, is this the ultimate fix for the absence of X starports in
>>first
>>  Survey? The "X" and "E" starports are merged, and called "E"?
>
>X always meant Red Zone. Interdicted World. That really applies to the
>Imperium of 1100. It was possible for a world to have a starport and still be
>a Red Zone, and there was no way to define what facility there was present.
>
>In 1100, that really didn't matter. In multiple milieux, it makes a
>difference.
>
>Now, a world may have an A starport and someone could interdict it and make
>it a Red Zone. But the A class starport remains in place, even if unused.

Yes, so it's a good idea to add another column to the data to indicate
a travel zone, right? 

Also, I noticed that the column between the PBG value and the stellar
data is empty all the way down - is this column supposed to be 
zone data, allegiance data, or something else? I assumed it was allegiance
data, 'cause that column was allegiance in the DGP files, but as
it's empty, it could very well be anything, or just some funky error.

Finally, anyone got some code to check to see if the 'Remarks' column
is indeed correct? And why are there no 'Ri Ind' worlds? I saw some
'HiPop Ind' worlds, but isn't 'Ri Ind' a valid combination?

Ethan


- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 13:31:29 -0500
From: Alex Rebsch <grazzit@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Robots/Vampire Fleets

At 09:55 AM 5/29/97 -0400, you wrote:

>

>Hi,

>

>Who has a copy of Vampire Fleets? What are the robot construction rules

>like? Are they very different from Book 8?

>

>Also, if anyone in Toronto has a copy, would you be willing to

>photocopy the appropriate section for me? Heck, you could even fax

>it to me, it's a local call...

>

>Anyways, thanks,

>Ethan

>-- 

>ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

>

>


Well I don't have Book 8 so I can't compare but the design in Vampire fleets is split into 9 design steps:


1. Chassis

2. Suspension

3. Control Systems

4. Electronics

5. Weaponry

6. Peripherals

7. Power Plant

8. Transmission

9. Cargo


then there is the design evaluation. If you have a specific question let me know.


Alex

E=Mail:	grazzit @flash.net


Home
Page:<underline><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>	http://www.flash.net/~grazzit/traveller.html</color></underline>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 13:52:53 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: FFS 2

At 09:44 AM 5/29/97 -0400, you wrote:
>So why not post or FTP the manuscript so people can look and comment?
>
>Marc
>
Way to go Marc!!!!!!<G>

Yes Someone please do the above

Sinbad Sam
- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:36:36 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: X and E ports

Thomas Walter Trelenberg wrote:
> 
> >My E-ports is a flat landing pad of ferrocrete or some such and a radio
> >transponder that (as all ship transponders) react to navradars. The
> >transponder logs all communication and now and then a Scout will come >by
> >and download the log to assist in locating misjumped ships, tracking >down
> >pirates etc. There's no extrality fence but the area is still Imperial
> >property.

I agree with this definition. Basically, a flat piece of ground is
an X starport. A flat piece of ground with a beacon is an E starport.
> 
> Pehaps there should be an E- type port---a port which is not "E" because
> there is no beacon, but a safe landing location is known (where the
> scouts set down when surveying the worlds surface) and its coordinates
> are published.
> 
> X ports could be where no attempt was made to land (orbital survey only)
> or where no suitable LZ could be found.

I'd say that 9,999 times out of 10,000, a world will have at least
an E- starport, by this definition, which is why I don't agree with it.
It's safe to say that, unless your world is a gas giant or is 100%
covered by liquid or fire, there is always a flat piece of land 
_somewhere_ that you can use. This makes the X starport definition
above almost useless (no offense).

I like the broader definition. Starports must have beacons. An E 
starport is the most basic starport you can get. An X starport isn't
really a starport; there's no beacon.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:53:14 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Sector Data

At 09:44 AM 5/29/97 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 97-05-29 03:06:29 EDT, you write:
>
>> 
>>  BTW, Marc, are you willing to change stellar classifications?  I have not
>>  gotten the data yet, so I am figuring out what I want to do with it. <g>
>
>Precisely what do you mean?

From what I have been reading lately, the data has a very different stellar
population than the real world.  (Given some of the arguments now taking
place, it is likely that the current understanding is also a bit wonky.)

Are you willing to do wholesale changes to stellar codes, UWPs, PBG digits,
and so on?  If you are not willing, for example, to change stellar
classifications, then I will ignore the star type in my comments.  If you
are, then I will try to find the "real numbers" and make the data fit.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:04:17 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: First Survey Spectrography

At 07:58 PM 5/28/97 -0500, you wrote:
>I don't have the real-world information resources to check this data (and
>I'm unwilling to trust SF sources), so I'd appreciate it if one of our
>astronomic "brain trust" on the list could check these distributions for
>me.

I will look tonight.

>As I noted in my previous letter, the type-VI stars really should be
>"turned up" to type V, and several of the white dwarfs (those which
>are the primaries for habitable planets) should likewise become main
>sequence stars instead.

Yes!  IIRC, the system is overfond of placing worlds near dwarf stars.

>Most of the data above look O.K. to my limited astronomic education --
>except that I think white dwarfs are vastly over-represented!  This is a
>particular problem given Traveller's generous estimates for habitable
>planets -- should those stars be changed?

Yes, indeed.  I am not playing "Traveller, the dark years."  I also think
we should shift some population to better places, and make the
distributions a bit more bimodal.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:07:47 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: FS-Data Starport Distribution

At 10:10 PM 5/28/97 -0500, you wrote:
>More tidbits from my ongoing analysis of Marc Miller's machine-readable
>First Survey data.  Hopefully these will foster some discussion of just
>what Imperial space looked like in the decades before and during the
>initial expansion, and what we can do to make these masses of random
>data conform to both the written history and to current scientific
>thought.

I feel that there should be very little stuff leftover on a barren world.
No port is going to survive a few hundred years of the elements.  Vac
worlds, OTOH, I might accept.

I play that the tech represents the technology that is in common useage
there, and usually that which is produced.  I play, therefore, that a
barren world with a TL of 7 might actually be a world with a few TL12
machines and factories left, but that dould only produce TL7 goods without
significant repairs and retooling, and that it might have a very low upper
bound on how much stuff it can make before breaking.

FWIW, this is the mother lode that every explorer hopes to find.  A big box
of ROM stuff would make anyone wealthy.

>In my last post (re: spectral distribution), I neglected to include the
>distribution of stars into single, binary, and trinary systems, so here we
>go.  Of the 4562 systems covered in the data, 2624 are single, 1821 are
>binary, and 117 are trinary.

IIRC, there should be more binary and ternary systems that single, but I do
not have my references here.

>I tried a starport distribution as well, with some odd results.  Some of
>the strangeness comes from the presence of ports on barren worlds without
>any population, or on very low-tech and/or low-population planets.  While
>I have no problem believing this in the Mature Imperium (1100's) Milieu,
>it sticks in my craw a bit for an area of space just emerging from a Long
>Night of interstellar isolation and absence of trade and big government. 
>Indeed, I'd prefer something much more akin to the TNE starport
>distribution, with few to no ports except in specifically developed areas. 

Yes!  The ability to produce and maintain a starship is very important, and
I suspect that no more than one world in a given PE should have this.
Further, there should be a limited number of class B ports.  Most worlds
that are not rising fast will not have anything other than a class C, D, or
E, as the megacorps do not want to encourage competition, and few others
could afford a port better than a C.  A class B port lets you build ships,
and that would be a closely guarded ability.

>Again, we have 4562 worlds in total for the nine sectors covered.  The
>starports on these worlds break down as follows:
>
>	A:   402
>	B: 1,184
>	C: 1,327
>	D:   813
>	E:   836

>I don't have figures yet on how many worlds have ports but no population,
>for example -- if I had a database instead of just a spreadsheet, such
>analyses would be less cumbersome to come by.  But I'll tinker with it
>anyway.  To my eye, 10% A ports seems about right, but I'd prefer to swap
>the relative abundances of (B&C) and (D&E) class ports.  Any comments?

I can live with 400 A ports, though it seems about twice as high as it
should be.  From what was said recently, a class B can produce a starship,
while a class C can maintain or repair it in a limited way.  A class D is a
good refueling stop, while a class E is a known place to land.  I would say
that every PE would have at least one port that can build ships, while any
world that is a common endpoint for a trip would have the maintenance
facilities implied by a class C.  All other worlds would have a class D or E

My proposed distribution:

4562 worlds, which are something like half inhabited.
A: ~150-200
B: ~350-400
C: ~1000
D: ~1000
E: ~2000

This leads to roughly 600 pocket empires or dangerous worlds, and another
thousand or so easy targets for traders, pirates, and adventures.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1381
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 29 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1382



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: smart guns
Re: Sector Data(Long)
Re: Sector Data
Re: First Thoughts On Marc's FS Data
Re: Meson Radiation
Re: FS-Data Starport Distribution
FS population proposal
Hmmmm...Is the truth stranger...
Re: Extreme Law Levels
Re: Starport Distribution in FS-M0
Re: Sector data
FS Data: Misc info
IG Customer Service
Re: First Thoughts On Marc's FS Data
FFS2
Re: FS-Data Starport Distribution
Re:Jump/Casualties

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 19:16:52 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: smart guns

On Thu, 29 May 1997 12:34:29 +0100 (BST), you wrote:

> > Also, the weapon used in "5th element" where the bullets would "seek" out
> > the target, how likely is this sort of technology?  Another old 70's
> > sci-fi had a similiar weapon.

> Ah RUNAWAY starring Tom Sellick as a dective in the Rogue Robots section. 
> Quite fun actually, spider robots with acid, land torpedos and of course 
> the heat seaking bullet. It homed in on your body heat, it could even 
> home in on a particular persons heat signature. Quite cool really.

Actually, the rounds fired from the weapon in "5th Element" would only
home in on a specially coded projectile fired first.  Heat seekers
would seek out any source of heat nearby.  The weapon depicted in the
movie was supposed to allow continuous fire against a specific target
that is out of LOS.

BTW, knowledge of this won't spoil the movie.  It was just a test
firing of the weapon to show off some of the movie's excellent special
effects.  Way-ta-go Digital Domain!

> > [snip]
> > > 
> > > Also have a news paper article on an Australian designed VERY rapid fire
> > > machine gun. So far tested at 45,000 to 135,00 rounds per minute, the
> > > phalanx equivalent would fire at ten million. If any one is interested let
> > > me know and I'll post it.

> Now this is not a gun I would like to meet in a dark alleyway.

Post it!

James W. Lindsay     Vancouver, British Columbia
  "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
    the grace to accept the things I cannot,
         and a great big bag of money."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 14:55:35 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: Sector Data(Long)

Now just something not directly negative about T4 just when you thought I
was only a nay sayer. <G>

After Looking the data over here is some nits<g>

ant  2223  Ensiikhuu.     G7 III M0 D  M1 ?? Stellar size for the M1 maybe D
cdr  0105  Shar           M1 V   K3 V  I is this a size V or VI or a trianary?
cor  0117  Neki           M0 III M9 V  M4 ?? Stellar Size?
cor  1428  Vlaarvla Akha. K6 II  M9 D  M2 ?? Stellar Size? 
cor  1622  Genkaaa        M2 II  M8 V  M7 ?? Stellar Size?
cor  1909  Iiska Ashgi    K5 VI  M4 D  M3 ?? Stellar Size?
cor  2413  Kiur           M3 IV  M2 D  M7 ?? Stellar Size?
cor  2615  Ispumer        M3 VI  M5 D  K5 ?? Stellar Size?
cor  2931  Dinenruum      K1 IV  M3 D  M4 ?? Ditto
dag  0103  Parkaa         M1 V   M2 D3 V  ?? D3? V?  
dag  0216  Zikhiirke      K5 VI  M5 D  M2 ?? Stellar Size?
dag  1516  Diim           M6 III M2 V  M6 ?? Ditto
dag  1612  Khaki Im       M1 V   M7 VI M3 ?? Ditto
dag  1809  Andkash        M2 IV  M1 D  M9 ?? Ditto
dag  2612  Liluu Ir       K1 III M3 VI M? ?? Stellar Size and Type
dag  3206  Vlisis         M9 VI  M7 D  M1 ?? Stellar Size
del  1905  Gakmirnege     K4 III M3 D  M4 ?? Ditto
for  0615  Udguu          M1 IV  M4 VI M7 ?? Ditto
for  2235  Irim           G4 VI  M1 D  M0 ?? Ditto
for  2320  Gim            M4 II  M3 D  M1 ?? Ditto
gus  2121  Adash Khu      K6 IV  M7 D  M1 ?? Ditto
gus  2323  Gelumuu        M9 II  K4 D  M5 ?? Ditto
ile  0413  Shaak Khaa     G9 VI  M2 D  M9 ?? Ditto
ile  2311  Muupun         G6 VI  M8 D  M6 ?? Ditto
ile  2712  Mian           M8 VI  M6 D  M4 ?? Ditto
lis  2726  Iishvla Im     F3 VI  M0 D  M0 ?? Ditto
lis  2808  Irkesh Suk     M8 IV  M4 D  M5 ?? Ditto
mas  1234  Urkhiig La     M3 V   M6 VI M6 ?? Ditto
mas  2428  Lirluukhiinpi  F4 VI  M7 D  M9 ?? Ditto
mas  2530  Unsuu Kiis     F3 VI  M0 D  M5 ?? Ditto
mas  2734  Khuk           G5 VI  M8 D  M6 ?? Ditto
vla  1604  Gamgilebo      F4 IV  M1 VI M1 ?? Ditto
zar  1922  Gasuur Uud     G4 VI  M0 D  M2 ?? Ditto

Also I have Marc's FS data in Excel 97 spreadsheet with all fields as a
separate columns, anyone interested in a copy? Excel 4, 5 formats and a
other formats as needed. It is not a small file though, 471kb zipped and
1.7 meg unziped.

 


 






 


 
 






 


 



 


  

	

- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:44:28 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Sector Data

At 09:44 AM 5/29/97 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 97-05-29 03:06:29 EDT, you write:
>
>> 
>>  BTW, Marc, are you willing to change stellar classifications?  I have not
>>  gotten the data yet, so I am figuring out what I want to do with it. <g>
>
>Precisely what do you mean?
I would like to see the highly unlikely/impossible star/planet combinations
weeded out.. Agricultural worlds orbiting M9v's for example.. Also, some of
the stellar types given are no longer considered viable by science.
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
|  Creative Planetologist, THUDDer, 20 year vet  |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
|  "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|  about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|  Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|   -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin"  |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:10:27 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: First Thoughts On Marc's FS Data

At 09:44 AM 5/29/97 -0400, MM wrote:
>> Gelinas strongly recommends
>>  that Barren worlds be changed to TL0, which also needs to be performed for
>>  this data set.
>
>What if the world had a colonizing body or a research station or even a
>non-human race who once lived there, but don't any more, and left behind
>ruins or installations. Wouldn't that justify a UWP something like E678000-7
>Ba.

It could, I suppose, but in most cases, the goodies left should have
vanished long since.  The port should have fallen to the lowest possible
value, and the tech should decay very rapidly, if the world has any
atmosphere/fluid.  I can accept a very few worlds like this out there, but
they should be quite rare.

Has it been officially decided how aggressive the Vilani and ROM were about
colonizing?  Did they have every world in Core occupied, or did they only
pick certain ones?

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:30:04 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Meson Radiation

Leonard wrote:
>> My second question concerns meson weapons.  When a starship is hit by
>> a meson weapon it results in internal explosions and the release of
>> radiation.  How long will the the starship be radioactive?
>
>Whoa! "Release of radiation" is *not* the same as "be[ing] radioactive".
>As an example, if I zap you with X-rays, you'll have been exposed to
>radiation, but there is no radioactivity involved.

When I worked in the civil nuclear industry here in the UK, we refered to
two distinct things - *radiation* (ie emmitted ionising radiation such as X
rays, Gamma, Alpha) and *contamination*. This refered to materials etc.
that were now radioactive, thus emitting to a degree. Thus, something
exposed to radiation would become contaminated if it became 'radioactive'
and emitted itself. Hope that helps.

I try not to be a gearhead (I get enough of that at work), so I'll leave it
to others to extrapolate whether meson guns contaminate the debris they
leave behind!

Dom

- --------------- Dom Mooney (dom@cybergoths.u-net.com)---------------
"The fall of Empire, Gentlemen, is a massive thing, however, and not easily
fought. It is dictated by a rising bureaucracy, a receding initiative, a
freezing of caste, a damming of curiousity - a hundred other factors."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Hari Seldon - Azimov's "Foundation"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 14:42:25 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: FS-Data Starport Distribution

Quoth Jason Anderson:
> I feel that that doesn't always matter. Depending on your definition of a
> starport, it is possible to have a starport on a barren world. It could be
> what the world had before the population died off (for example). Likewise
> with a low tech world - hundreds of years ago it was in use, but now it is
> deserted. Of course, if the starport classification means a _fully
> functional_ starport, then what I just wrote doesn't make sense.

Presumably, inactive and unmaintained starports would degrade rapidly:
there's fuel to evaporate, comm centers and beacons to break, native life
to grow in cracks in the tarmac, or vacuum welding to take place.... and
the basic definition of a port (ship construction, repairs, etc.) seems to
presume some staff are around.  If they're robots, who repairs them?
(Quis fabricat ipsos fabricatores?)

Keep in mind, too, that large-scale commerce (i.e. widespread starports)
are portrayed as having begun a decline over 1700 years before Milieu:0,
as the Rule of Man began to collapse.  Probably there aren't many
dedicated starports around except within active, starfaring pocket
empires.  I suspect most "starports" are really dressed-up airports, if
the tech level permits (they _might_ qualify for Class C, if they could
process hydrogen and get replacement parts).  A & B ports require
infrastructure that just isn't likely to be tossed around so cavalierly
("wasted" on sub-premium worlds) as it is in Milieu:1100, when there's
a millenium of constant starfaring history to allow for the sort of
economic variations you describe.  (THERE it can make sense to roll the
starport first and let that influence the tech level: here in Milieu:0
that's really kind of strange).

> BTW, this is also a reason why I feel barren worlds having a tech level is
> possible - it is the tech level the civilisation was at when it ceased to
> be a civilisation.

Again, 1700 years is a long time.  Does it matter if the pot-sherd
equivalents on-site are fragments of crankcases or of grav plates?

> >To my eye, 10% A ports seems about right
> I have to disagree. There should be very few starports of class A (since
> Sylea is supposed to be the only world to maintain one through the long
> night), and most will be centered in the Core sector.

So now I'll argue for _more_ starports.  :-)  Though the Classic Traveller
history often painted a picture of vast barbaric swathes of space in which
Sylea shed the only light, we know there "really" were pocket empires all
over future-Imperial space picking themselves up in the years leading up
to Milieu:0 -- the Chanestin Kingdom and Interstallar Confederacy were not
isolated players, and that's three starfaring governments within Core
Sector alone.  We know that the League of Antares already exists in Year
0, and Marc has implied that the Geonee and Suerrat may also have pocket
empires rivaling Sylea's.  Heck, way down Solomani Rim way there's the
Easter Concord and the Old Earth Union, so that's still two per sector.

In such an environment, I could cope with a 10/20/20/25/25 split, say, for
A/B/C/D/E starports, though a more draconian and "realistic" option might
be 5/15/25/25/30.  (5% of 4562 worlds would yield 200-some-odd A-class
ports spread across the nine sectors under consideration, or around 25 per
sector, 8-12 per government if we postulate 2-3 of those per sector).  For
what it's worth, the current, completely random FS data is 9/26/29/18/18. 
What does the list think the "proper" distribution should be?

I'd also suggest a M:0 variant to the usual generation process: if, in the
random UWP generation process, the population and/or tech level don't make
it past a certain threshold based on starport type, reduce the starport to
the appropriate value (or invent a good story, since you're the ref).

> BTW, we really have to decide EXACTLY when this survey is meant to
> represent. Milieu 0 is too broad. Year 0? Year 20? Year 50? Year 139.3256?

I've been assuming it's valid for around 0-20, which is the period the
Milieu:0 supplement paints as being occupied with long-range scouts
zipping through the entire area to get a rough look.  (See the rough maps
of Imperial scout, merchant, and political penetration available in Joe
Heck's FTP archives).

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:53:12 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: FS population proposal

From the readings I have been doing lately (Historical Atlas of World
Population), Rome _needed_ to have a few million to maintain the tech 1-3
culture they had.  The million do not all have to live there, but they do
have to be within one jump, as otherwise, transport costs get prohibitive.

I would propose that any world with a tech of higher than 1 have a
population of at least 5, with 6 or 7 being more reasonable.  The sole
exceptions are worlds supported entirely from the outside, such as
colonies, research stations, and depots, which should be noted in the
descriptions.  What follows is a more detailed alternative population
generation system that takes two passes:

Judging from our own colonial history, a world can support about 1 percent
of its population in a distant place, so it would be rare to have more than
one non self sufficient colony per hundred million people on the home
world.  It would be more comfortable to have it be one colony per billion.
Sylea, having 30G people, can probably keep a few dozen colonies alive with
little discomfort.  This means that populated worlds with <1M people may
outnumber worlds with 1G or more, but had best not by much.

The current system generates pop as follows:
0:3%	1:5%	2:8%	3:11%	4:14%	5:16%	6:14%	7:11%	8:8%	9:5%	A:3%

Given my above statements, I use the following distribution FOR NON COLONY
worlds.
0:50%	1:0%	2:0%	3:0%	4:0%	5:0%	6:12%	7:16%	8:12%	9:6%	A:4%

I generate tech and the social stats as usual, but then I check it against
technology as follows:

The more involved system I have been using in my games is:

1.  Any world with less than a million people is marginal.
2.  A million people can maintain any technology up to about 4
3.  Ten million people can maintain technology up to about 7
4.  A hundred million can generate technology up to about 10
5.  A billion people can generate any technology at all

The corollaries:

TL	Pop supported
0-3	100 million
6	1 billion
8	10 billion
12	100 billion
15+	1 trillion

Minimum technologies:
Tainted: 3?
Vac: 7?

1.  TL0-4 can support 50 million people
1.  TL5-8 can support 50 million people
1.  Any world with less than a million people is marginal.
2.  A million people can maintain any technology up to about 4
3.  Ten million people can maintain technology up to about 7
4.  A hundred million can generate technology up to about 10
5.  A billion people can generate any technology at all

The second pass sorts the worlds by pop, tech level and then starport.  It
expands out from all class A ports for one jump (based on homeworld TL),
and from class B ports for the greater of a jump 1 or half a jump.

Likelihood of a world placing a colony on an empty world:0%
Target is Earthlike:+5%
Target has high resource rating: +5%
Target is at jump 1: +5%
Source is pop 9:+5%
Source is pop 10, multiplier <=5:+10%
Source is pop 10, multiplier >5:+15%
Source is Rich:+5%
Source has other colonies:-10%/colony

The results: If there is an earthlike planet within jump 3 of Sylea or
Shudusham, it almost certainly has a colony.  If it is a jump 2, and nobody
has  reached TL12 nearby, it is pretty unlikely to be colonized.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 13:22:38 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Hmmmm...Is the truth stranger...

Or is it still fiction?

From an editorial in this morning's paper:

"Walter Truett Anderson:
        New energy forms are well
        within our reach

        By Walter Truett Anderson 

        S trange news is coming out of the laboratories these days -reports
        of new devices that can produce amazing amounts of clean energy at
        low cost. Some experts believe that we may be on the verge of the
        era of ``zero point energy,'' the ultimate cornucopia - power
        generated from the mysterious properties of empty space. 

        This news could easily be dismissed as just a replay of the ``cold
        fusion'' excitement that flared up and then fizzled out a few years ago.
        But this time the results - at least in one case - are verified and far
        more impressive. 

        The star performer in the new crop of energy innovations is a device
        called the Patterson Power Cell. Developed by James A. Patterson,
        chief scientist at Clean Energy Technologies in Dallas, it is a glass
        enclosure that contains thousands of tiny metal-coated spheres which
        serve as electrodes. The ``fuel'' - believe it or not! - is plain  water.
        When zapped with a small amount of electricity - about 1.4 watts DC
        power input - the cell puts out an enormous amount of heat, in some
        cases hundreds of times the amount of energy input. 

        This much has been proven in numerous demonstrations and
        checked out by many observers. It has been tested by the U.S. Patent
        Office, which has issued four patents on the invention. There's no
        doubt that the device generates heat. But there's plenty of
        controversy about how it does what it does. "

Wow...if this is right, this is quite impressive. I dug a little further
and discovered that the beads  are plastic with alternating layers of
nickel and palladium...so what I suspect may be going on is some sort of
catalysis reaction with the hydrogen and oxygen separated by the original
electrolysis, but I freely admit I'm in pure speculation mode here.

I looked on the web and found a site called 'The Institute for New
Energy', but among it's references is one article described thus:

"U.S. Patent Law: Title 35, Part II, Chapter 17, Sections 181-188
     The text. Very difficult to believe! - YET TRUE! Provided to us by
Stacey Enderle, who writes: This Title 35 has been used for years
     to ensnare any inventor out there who's invention will threaten the
industry the U.S. government protects. --- Spread
     the warning! ! ! - Thick, Far and Wide! The Full Legal Text (via the
Cornell Law Library) is also available for you to read. "

Does anyone else know anything about this amazing 'Patterson Power Cell'?

Truett's article goes on to gush about the possibility of generating power
from 'Zero Point vaccuum fluctuations in the universe' which from his
description involves taking advantage of quantum physical scale reversals
of entropy...particles and/or waves that arise from 'empty' space
spontaneously. It sounds to me like a jargon-laden perpetual motion
machine.

Comments?

The full article is at:

http://www.azstarnet.com/public/dnews/105-0670.html

But only for today...you have to be a Starnet member to look at back
issues of the paper.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:39:20 +0100
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Extreme Law Levels

At 10:09 29/05/97 -0400, Ethan Henry wrote:
>> > ile 3209    Gimem . E7AA8DH-5   Wa      200     M3 V
>> > Uh, what's that 'H' at the end of the UWP??? A law level of 'H'??
>> > (That is Law level, isn't it?) 
>> 
>Exotic atmosphere, totally covered in liquid, hundreds of millions
>of inhabitants, a brutal government with a highly repressive, nay,
>opressive law level. Don't stop there, don't even slow down going by...
>
	Why not? Think of the role-playing possibilities. The players have to
rigidly role-play their characters and any deviation is punished! "Not
looking in the right direction? Thirty days in prison!" This would
certainly get a rowdy bunch of players back in line!!! Besides, variant
planets are part of Traveller; sometimes the players' ship just _has_ to
land somewhere, and if they arrive on a planet where the entire population
has a strict timetable for going to the toilet then so be it...

	See ya...


Bruce E J Lewis - mailto:bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk
Telephone - 0956-506527

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 13:05:31 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Starport Distribution in FS-M0

At 05:35 PM 5/29/97 +0100, you wrote:
>Jason Anderson sent:
>>I have to disagree. There should be very few starports of class A (since
>>Sylea is supposed to be the only world to maintain one through the long
>>night), and most will be centered in the Core sector. Maybe around 50-100
>>class A starports? Even that may be too high.

Which, of course, means that any other type A ports in core is a relatively
recent critter.  I like that - it gives Syleans some personality.

>The problem is that this ignores a lot of historical information in the 
>M0 book itself, i.e. The Compeditors of the Sylean Empire: The Chanestin 
>Kingdom and the Interstellar Confederacy.

That only takes two or three ports total of shipbuilding status.

>In order to be competitors they 
>HAVE to be able to construct Starships. No Interstellar Government in the 
>Traveller sense is possible without an economy supported, and systems 
>defended by jump ships. 1500+ year-old relic ships do not exist. 

They only need one port at A or B, as Marc recently posted something saying
that class B ports are shipbuilders.  This makes that class A or B port
very valuable.  Besides, even if only class A ports can build ships, 100
possible competitors in one sector are going to be more than enough
resistance to Sylea.

I do agree that there are not going to be any 1500 year old relics.
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 21:13:39 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Sector data

FWIW I would like to see the UWP/M0 discussion on the TML. It's kind of
critical if you want to play in that era.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Feel the guilt / like shackles round your feet / like a halo in reverse"
                     Depeche Mode "Violator"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 15:52:52 -0500
From: Alex Rebsch <grazzit@flash.net>
Subject: FS Data: Misc info

Well I've jumped on the band wagon of people who have started to analyze the FS data. Here are the first things that I've seen.


Duplicate Names:	419 Duplicate World Names spread over all sectors


Bases:			25 	Naval Bases

			157 	Scout Bases

			5	"B" Whatever this is?


StarPorts:		508	Type A

			1552	Type B

			1740	Type C

			1036	Type D

			1085	Type E


Well that's it for now. does anybody have any particular criteria searches they'd like done? Let me know if you do and if it isn't tremendously difficult I'll see what I can do, but pleease let me know privately!


Alex

E=Mail:	grazzit @flash.net


Home
Page:<underline><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>	http://www.flash.net/~grazzit/traveller.html</color></underline>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 05:24:46 -0500
From: Robert Beck <beck@mail.all-net.net>
Subject: IG Customer Service

Hi all,

Just got a call from Melody at IG. Sounded like a sales rep. Pronounced the
supplements like a sales rep (IOW incorrectly- Milew, Sinic, you get the
picture ;), and called to ask me how I liked Imperium Games and their
products. She also wanted to sign me up for credit card advance order
policy. I assume this is going around? 
All in all, this is a positive thing, as far as I'm concerned. Granted, it
was a sales pitch, but at least they're trying, and at least they notice
we, or more precisely, our money, are still out here. ;). If this keeps up,
I might get to liking this new-fangled IG.

Rob. 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:17:47 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: First Thoughts On Marc's FS Data

>The way I run things, if population is zero, then so is government,
>LL and TL. If there are ruins of a former race there, I'd just say
>so in the notes.

I think that detailing the former TL is useful - perhaps a solution that
would may make it clear is to put the TL in parentheses? So Marc's example
would become: E678000-(7) Ba. The Ba code qualifies the situation. HOWEVER,
this makes fixing FS even more of a pain as you would have to generate TLs
for worlds that were once populated and now TL0.

I agree that the LL and Gov should be zero for an unpopulated world. I do
not agree that the TL should be, unless we consider it to relate to the
sustainable technology of the culture present.

As an aside, after the recent flamefest, Marc has responded by making the
M0 data available. I believe that we on the TML are obligated to consider
the data and try and fix any problems. However, I believe that the first
thing that we should do is consider what checks to apply. Jeff has made a
start at this - perhaps one of the people who proposed the TML fix should
co-ordinate posting a set of checks that need applying.

Now, at the same time, if someone posts what sectors we are considering, I
think that we should review the available library data and  old 'canon'.
This we could then post details of *published* lib data and scenarios that
touch upon certain worlds, to ensure that the M0 data and 1100/1120 data
match closely. Individually, this is a big job, but split it over the list
and it would be simple. I'll happily volunteer to make a start if someone
will post me a list of the sectors (have M0, not buying FS until it's
fixed.)


Yours (suddenly going pale at the thought of the shelf of Traveller books
that need reviewing!)
Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Feel the guilt / like shackles round your feet / like a halo in reverse"
                     Depeche Mode "Violator"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 15:37:56 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: FFS2

Marc writes
>So why not post or FTP the manuscript so people can look and comment?


I think the current manuscript draft is available on Dave or 
Guy's web sites (maybe they could post the URL?) My main point is that
it needs *weeks* of playtesting. For example, no-one has yet designed
a 100,000 kTon ship using the new sensor rules...or probably not even
the new hull and radiator rules. Lots of stuff has changed; it takes 
weeks of poking by many people to find the real problems. Ideally, this
poking should be done at something close to the final manuscript after
(presumably) Marc and IG have edited it...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 05:38:22 -0500
From: Robert Beck <beck@mail.all-net.net>
Subject: Re: FS-Data Starport Distribution

At 10:10 PM 5/28/97 -0500, Chepe wrote:


>I tried a starport distribution as well, with some odd results.  Some of
>the strangeness comes from the presence of ports on barren worlds without
>any population, or on very low-tech and/or low-population planets.  While
>I have no problem believing this in the Mature Imperium (1100's) Milieu,
>it sticks in my craw a bit for an area of space just emerging from a Long
>Night of interstellar isolation and absence of trade and big government. 
>Indeed, I'd prefer something much more akin to the TNE starport
>distribution, with few to no ports except in specifically developed areas. 

Definitely agree with Chepe here. You're talking about reemergence after a
massive economic depression. Where are all the starship building systems
coming from? Where's their market for said ships? As time progresses, of
course one would expect to see an increase in A & B starports, but at this
time they would be scarce, and the center of pocket empires and protective
unions. C & D starports, I think, would be the norm in areas on the fringes
of pocket empires (on both sides of the border) and in areas where trade
had been maintained haphazardly, but with no controlling entity, such as an
interstellar government. E starports would undoubtedly fill up the big gaps
left between these trading mains and pocket empires. 
The numbers of B & C ports seemed awfully high for such an area, for the
reasons stated above. What time of of the Imperium are we trying to
represent here? Closer to 0 or closer to 200? Obviously, as the Imperium
grows, there will be a boom in the Starport quality of most sectors
influenced by it. It would predictably be rapid and aiming for worlds
closer to the Imperium to have higher quality starports, while worlds
farther away try to build something, anything, that might attract some of
that trade in their direction.

Rob.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 18:00:27 -0500
From: The Stump Family <stumps@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re:Jump/Casualties

Michael wrote:

> > Personally, I think a full division could be deployed from orbit in
> > about 1 hr. (total, including drop time). Regardless of the tech level
> > of the defenders, being able to respond to an entire division anywhre on
> > the planet in 1 hour is well nigh impossible.
> 
> You really think so?  I think that they could get some kind of defense
> there within in an hour.   The Americans have (had?) a Rapid Deployment
> force that could be anywhere in 24 hours and be in force within 48 hours.
> Don't you think that in 3000 years a similiar situation could occur in an
> hour?
> 

I was in the Rapid Force Deployment group for a while and they could get
a light brigade anywhere in 18 hours, rest of a division in 6 more. The
Ranger Battallions at Hunter Army Airfield in Georgia can deploy a
Ranger Bat (arguably the world's best light infantry) anywhere in the
world in (flight time + 3) hours.
Both are very impressive. But, I must assume that most traveller worlds
have unified global governments; this means fewer military bases and
)perhaps) smaller total soldiers worldwide. This means greater distances
to travel (potentially). If we assume that better tech counters this,
this means a jump division could reasonable expect to face enemy
infantry in 2-3 hours (preparation) + 2-3 hours (travel tiime)+4-6
hours. And that would be similarly equipped light infantry. Even
assuming there are ready brigades on standby that can deploy faster
(soldiers and equipment ready, grav vehicles standing by) that means a
full division can jump, fight for an hour unopposed, hold off a light
infantry battallion as they board pickup ships, and be gone for an hour
before the division arrives. 
  In an our a present-day division an unleash a whole lotta' grief - I
can't imagine what guys with plasma weapons could do!

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1382
***********************************

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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 29 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1383



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re:Smart Guns
Re: "Smart Guns"
Re: smart guns
Re: Speed, Relativity & such
X-ports
Re: FF&S and laser design
Re: "Smart" guns
Re: Lasing down jump troops
Re: Living expenses
Re: First Thoughts On Marc's FS Data
EMP and system susceptibility
FS statistical impressions
RE: FS Statistical impressions
Re: Speed, Relativity & such
Barren Worlds (was Re: First Thoughts on Marc's FS Data) (LONG)
Re: Speed, Relativity & such (fwd)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:25:08 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re:Smart Guns

On Thu, 29 May 1997, Anders Backman wrote:

I agree its immoral, as the only people who would want such a weapon are
criminaly inclined.  I have not heard of it since, hopefully it was
quashed (?)

> >The first was a plastic gun built by a Dutch firm.  Accept for the
> >bullets, it had no metal in it what so ever.
> 
> It also had a slightly helical gunbarrel doing away with rifles. Talk about
> immoral gunsmithing.
> This gun was made to (IMNSHO):
> 1 Not show up on airport metaldetectorors
> 2 Not traceable by ballistics examinations
> 
> Most criminals would love to have such a gun. In my campaign there's a gun
> producer on Wurzburg/Glisten that produces a similar one for the same
> reasons.
> 
> 
> /Anders Backman
> Aniware AB
> anders.backman@aniware.se
> 
> 
> 






 In every woman there is a Queen.
 Speak to the Queen and the Queen will answer. -
 Norwegian Proverb

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:30:15 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: "Smart Guns"

On Thu, 29 May 1997, Anders Backman wrote:

[snip]
> We're talking about civilized countries/planets, not the US. Most criminals
> in Sweden are unarmed or maybe carrying a knife and yes, our cops do get
> busted on weapons charge. I rate US as a law level 3-4 planet were Sweden
> could be about 7.
> 
> These discussions about safety devices to minimize accidental shootings
> could very well be of real importance on a planet very unlike the current
> US. Traveller is NOT yanks in space, at least not in my campaign.

Here! Here! Australia would be around the same range, maybe even an 8.
Most weapons related crimes the criminal uses a knife or sheer brute
force.  A lot of gun related crimes are nearly always organised crime. 

Michael.

 In every woman there is a Queen.
 Speak to the Queen and the Queen will answer. -
 Norwegian Proverb

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:44:40 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: smart guns

On Thu, 29 May 1997, mark.wilkin wrote:

> 
> > 
> > Also, the weapon used in "5th element" where the bullets would "seek" out
> > the target, how likely is this sort of technology?  Another old 70's
> > sci-fi had a similiar weapon.
> Ah RUNAWAY starring Tom Sellick as a dective in the Rogue Robots section. 
> Quite fun actually, spider robots with acid, land torpedos and of course 
> the heat seaking bullet. It homed in on your body heat, it could even 
> home in on a particular persons heat signature. Quite cool really.

Thats it exactly.  Thanks.

Michael,
 In every woman there is a Queen.
 Speak to the Queen and the Queen will answer. -
 Norwegian Proverb

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 19:48:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@peterboro.net>
Subject: Re: Speed, Relativity & such

On Wed, 28 May 1997, Garry Ward wrote:

> On this note, I have a question.  As you get closer the light speed, doesn't
> the ship, at some point, begin to out run it's own active sensors? Not
> knowing the exact speed of a radar pulse, but I would assume that at some
> point the difference between the velocity of the emiting ship and the
> maximum velocity of the radar pulse will be so small, that it is rendered
> useless. How then, without using something akin to psionic precognition, can
> you plot a safe course?

   Radar pulses travel at lightspeed, being a form of electromagnetic
radiation (just like light).

   Relativity says that no matter what, the Radar pulse will ALWAYS
*appear* to separate from the source at lightspeed, no matter what speed
the source is travelling; of course time-dilation insures that the
time-sense of the source is different than the rest of the universe.

   The main difference the source will see in the radar pulse is frequency
(doppler) shift due to the gain in energy the radar pulse gets when
bouncing off of a target travelling at a high rate of speed towards the
source...

- -- DLH                                 lhadley@peterboro.net

http://text.peterboro.net/~lhadley/Profile.html

  "Fight to fly, fly to fight, fight to win." - TOPGUN motto.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 19:49:14 -0400
From: Thomas Walter Trelenberg <tomt@scri.fsu.edu>
Subject: X-ports

>>X ports could be where no attempt was made to land (orbital survey >>only)
>>or where no suitable LZ could be found.
>
>I'd say that 9,999 times out of 10,000, a world will have at least
>an E- starport, by this definition, which is why I don't agree with it.
>It's safe to say that, unless your world is a gas giant or is 100%
>covered by liquid or fire, there is always a flat piece of land 
>_somewhere_ that you can use. This makes the X starport definition
>above almost useless (no offense).

None taken:->  I would like to point out a few reasons that one might
not want to land on a planet....especailly if you are a survey crew who
is more or less "on their own" and with slim chances of another ship
dropping by to lend assistance within the twenty years.

Feerinstance:

- -I would not want to land on a planet with surface conditions like Io. 
Having the bedrock I landed on split apart, with magma pooling around
the landing struts would give me cause for concern.

- -Severe weather conditions--While "the big Corilian ships" might be
immovable, smaller survey ships might have difficulty coping with wind
sheers orders of magnitude stronger than relatively tame stuff we
normally see here on Earth.

etc...and especially (remembering my time in the military) near the end
of the survey mission when everyone is tired and wants to be
home...."...its a barren vacuum with nothing on it...lets just c=scan it
and go."

I know this doesn't fit in with the way you choose for your universe to
run....but it could be an alternate that might possibly answer the
question asked earlier about "E"s and "X"s.

TT

"...Give it back!"
"That would be a little foolish...when I just worked so hard to get it."
							_Kerr Avon_

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 11:06:06 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: FF&S and laser design

At 09:46 29/05/97 -0600, you wrote:
>I'm having a bugger of a time designing man-portable lasers with FF&S.  I'm
>not doing something right, since I can't manage to come close to any laser
>statistics from the books (it hinges on range and intensity calculations).
>Is there a step-by-step resource somewhere that I can check against?  Or
>would someone be kind enough to look at my steps and tell me where I'm
>being dumb?
>
>Thanks!

Sure, if you email me your designs I'll have a look. I've been getting
results compatible with the Ref. Equippment Guide. Which books were you
checking against? The first printing of TNE has quite different stats in it.

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 11:08:07 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: "Smart" guns

At 17:28 29/05/97 +0200, you wrote:
>Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>> 
>> At 12:25 29/05/97 +0200, you wrote:
>> >Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Only the law-abiding. The criminals are already criminals, so what's
a few
>> >> more years if you're caught?
>> >
>> >How about execution?
>> 
>> The problem here being that presumably there'd be a similar penalty for
>> murder, so you just kill all the whitnesses as it won't make things any
>> worse than they already are.
>
>Ok, this is going a bit overboard here, but there are many different
>types of death sentences... Like "death by torture", "death by lethal
>injection"... I know that if I had a choice I'd prefer a painless death
>instead of a painful one. Now, I just hope I don't have to make that
>choice though.
>
At that point I think you'd be less worried about the criminals than about
the revolutionaries.

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 11:11:46 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Lasing down jump troops

At 09:32 29/05/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Actually, I just had an idea for a jump-troop defense.
>
>Forget stealth.  They're ablating their pods to brake against the
>atmosphere.   This will be visible a continent away.  And they'll
>be on a predictable course.
>
>This means that a laser beam can lock right onto them.  Say, a starship 
>laser cannon with ROF 800.  Fire one pulse per target, which will 
>almost certainly kill it.  Have a network of these things set up
>across your continent, and _wham_.  Barbecued jump-troopers.
>
>Of course, you'll need a laser frequency that won't go plasmatic in
>the atmosphere, but any jump-trooper in line-of-sight is dead.
>You'll need the money to erect the defense net, too, which means
>that low-tech or low-pop worlds probably won't have one.
>But attacking a hi-tech hi-pop world with jump-troopers is a very 
>bad idea.
>
The pulse may have a problem getting through the plasma, etc around the
pod. OTOH what are the chances of it disrupting the flow around the pod
enough to knock it off course? A jump that results in large scattering is
usually a disaster for the attacker.

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 11:01:35 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Living expenses

At 08:53 28/05/97 -0500, Ryan Christensen wrote:
>I just had an idea:
>
>	Since a Credit is based on the mentary value of one hour's worth of
>work, why don't we just base it on the minimum wage of the country or
>whatever? That would give us 1 ImpCr = $4.75 US. I personally make it by
>on about $1300/month, which would work out to 275 CrI, more or less.
>Since this figure above is without food, rent, utilities, etc., it seems
>pretty reasonable to me. Variances between city/rural life and expenses
>can be explained via analogy with the way the value of a Cr varies world
>to world with tech level and starport type. This would reflect the
>effect of industry on the economy, as well as the increased expense of
>living in higher population areas. 
>
>	Thoughts?
While I like the idea in principle, I suspect that it won't give good
results in practice. Minimum wage rates tend to be determined for political
and idealogical reasons, rather than for straight economic reasons. Frex
here in New Zealand the Minimum hourly rate is NZ$7.5, which is about
US$5.175 and I suspect that in some third world countries it could be
measured in dollars per month.

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:57:41 +1000
From: Jason Anderson <midnight@kagi.com>
Subject: Re: First Thoughts On Marc's FS Data

>CardSharks@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> In a message dated 97-05-29 01:54:24 EDT, you write:
>>
>> What if the world had a colonizing body or a research station or even a
>> non-human race who once lived there, but don't any more, and left behind
>> ruins or installations. Wouldn't that justify a UWP something like E678000-7
>> Ba.
>
>No. If I understand your reasoning correctly, then that would
>justify a UWP of something like E678084-7. If you say that it's okay
>to have a Tech Level factor which is not tied to population, then
>it's logical to assume that the government and law level need not be
>tied to population either.

???
How can it be logical to have a government and law level not tied to
population? A government can only exist if a) there are people present to
make up the government, and b) if there are people to govern (other than
the government). Likewise, having a law level when there is no one to
enforce it (or no one to enforce it on) doesn't make sense to me.

While in most cases tech level should be the same (the example you gave of
an advanced culture bombing themselves back into the stone age was a good
one), in the case of now deserted planets I feel that some indication of
tech level is appropriate, since it indicates that the planet wasn't always
deserted, and what level of technology the former inhabitants were at
before they disappeared/left.


>...If there are ruins of a former race there, I'd just say so in the notes.

I guess that is the way that is least likely to cause arguments, and also
allows the referee to have more information than a simple UWP.

Cheers,
Jason

- -------
Beyond Midnight Software                               <midnight@kagi.com>
                                      <http://www.vision.net.au/~midnight>

             If it's not on fire then it's a software problem.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 19:04:28 -0500
From: Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com>
Subject: EMP and system susceptibility

Perusing the Information Warfare site (http://www.infowar.com/), I
found a paper detailing how to build/modify computers and computer
facilities which could resist EMP attacks. If this is possible now, and
the article made it seem technologically routine, then I would venture
to suggest that military and civilian systems which are critical to
safety and communications, including sensors, would routinely be
shielded against the sort of EMP attacks made prior to jump troop
deployment. 

	That said, I wonder what would happen if someone built a starship level
grav focused laser in the microwave wavelengths. I would think it would
have rather nasty effects on enemy electronics; especially considering
that most starship hulls are metal, and thus conductive...

Ryan Christensen
litefoot@feist.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:09:11 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: FS statistical impressions

I got the FS data into a database (Sybase SQL Server system 10 running on
a HP Unix box...do I get any points for having a higher horsepower system
than anyone else?) and have done some preliminary poking at the data.

So I did a few Excel pivot tables...(AKA crosstabs)

TL distribution looks reasonable, with the median falling somewhere in the
region of 7.5 (based simply on count of worlds by tech level) This of
course excludes Vland, but does include everywhere else.

Masillia is the place to go, my friends, there are no fewer than 6 TL
E worlds there, only one fewer than the rest of the known sectors
combined.

Population is a bit more skewed,  93% of the population of the known
universe live on Pop A and B worlds, just 3% of the listed worlds. (again
excluding Vland for reasons to become clear)

Ahh...but I wanted to see who lives under what TL so I ran that...

Wow!
There are 1296 Pop 0 worlds, representing every tech level, the largest
sample in the bunch.

There are 3 TL A worlds at TL1 and 0 (how the hell do you support a Pop of
A on stone age technology??)

ant	0533	Saazi.	D585ADH-1
ant	1525	Uupe.	E561ABB-0
del	2726	Kiisamguushiirg	E8A6A9C-0

One is our familiar hellhole of a religious dictatorship Saazi, but
Kiisamguushiirg (named for the sound you make, slipping below the surface
of this water world?) is pretty much improbable. Stone age billions living
in the water.

On the whole, however, the distribution of tech and pop seem to be well
correlated, with most of the higher population worlds hovering around TL-9
to TL-B. This also implies (since TL-9 includes Jump Drive) that a large
majority (66% of all the sectors' population) live in starfaring
societies at year 0 (or is FS year 20? I forget.)  

But on the Tech side, the higher tech levels seem to gravitate toward the
middle population worlds (6 to 9) with a large number around 0, to 4. 
These however are reasonable for higher tech outposts, such as mining
colonies, and naval depots and such like. Still the distribution is skewed
towards lowpop/hitech worlds pretty heavily:  (I apologize in advance if
this comes out messed up, use a monspaced font to see it) 

Count of worlds
      pop                        
tech  0   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   A  B Total
0    10   0   7   5   2   7   2   1   2   2   2  0  40
1    13   7   4   7   3   2   1   2   1   0   1  0  41
2    28   7  14  10   5  14   4   2   3   1   0  0  88
3    55  31  18  17  22  21  16   7   4   2   0  0  193
4   113  43  47  46  36  32  31  15   8   6   1  0  378
5   173  51  51  56  58  47  24  23  15   9   6  0  513
6   166  76  68  63  64  57  28  37  17  14   9  0  599
7   195  75  81  77  72  59  48  46  24  12   9  0  698
8   171  78  85  86  70  74  56  62  34  17  21  1  755
9   153  64  79  82  67  74  72  39  42  22  33  2  729
A   106  48  63  64  57  57  43  37  26  24  22  1  548
B    68  48  42  52  44  48  47  42  27  19  24  2  463
C    36  17  28  37  15  30  21  21  16   7  24  1  253
D     8   9   3   5   8   6   7   7   7   4  14  0  78
E     1   0   0   3   2   0   2   3   2   0   0  0  13
Total
   1296  554 590 610 525 528 402 344 228 139 166 7  5389

	This leads to a problem...if these are truly high tl zero pop
worlds, then Milieu 0 starts to look like TNE, with lots of stuff out
there to be discovered and scavenged. Or are these 'best guesses' by the
Scout service for what used to be there, and these are bombed out, or
otherwise abandoned planets, with everything of real value gone.

like:

mas	2731	Paiim Ka.	B100000-E

A TL-E B starport on an unpopulated tiny world. Again, what a find! if
anything's left of that starport, it's there for the taking. Of course,
it's in Massilia, again, and a heck of a long ways away ;-)

Tomorrow...the governments and law of Milieu Zero, long awaited!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:14:47 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: RE: FS Statistical impressions

I must amend my previous post with this errata: The population figures are
all calculated _without_ using the pop multiplier, since I haven't yet
done the conversions from letter scores to numeric values for that.

However, this makes the ranges _much_ neater to figure with!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 00:28:07 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Speed, Relativity & such

At 01:19 AM 5/29/97 +0000, Merrick wrote:
> 
>,<snip my original question>
>
>The speed of light is always the same for any observer (within the
>same media).  So your active sensor pulses leave the ship at a
>reletive velocity of c, and return with a reletive velocity of c.
>What would happen is that the wavelength would change (doppler
>shift).  This is what they mean by "red shift" and "blue shift."
>If you look away from you direction of movement the signal will have
>a much longer wavelength than you emitted.  Look forward and it will
>shorten.  Longer is red, shorter is blue (in the visual range).
>
>So it might be a problem if you radar sees a limited bandwidth since
>the signal might shift away from what it detects (a radar dish won't
>see visible light, for example).
>
>-Merrick
>

Ok, red & blue shifts I remember. However, the concept I am having a problem
with is travel times.  Example:

Ship is at point A, chugging at 270,000 kps, emits a radar pulse at 300,000
kps, effective speed difference is only 30,000 kps. The radar pulse will
never exceed the speed of light, relative to anything. The pulse travels 1
second  out from the ship when it encounters an object at 300,000 klicks
from point A. Call this point B. At the same time the pulse is travelling,
so is the ship, which has reached point C, 270,000 klicks from point A. The
effective distance between the ship and the object is only 30,000 klicks.
The reflected pulse is now returning to the ship at 300,000 kps, the ship is
moving towards the pulse at 270,000 kps, and the distance each must cover is
only 30,000 klicks. At best the two will meet at 15,000 klicks from the
object at point B. The ship's computers and crew have .05 (5 hundreths) of a
second to react and dodge the object.

This, I think, puts a damper on relativistic travel. The faster you go, the
less able you become to see where you are going. You can't exploit
relativity until you get a fair percent the speed of light; but at a fair
percent the speed of light, you can't effectively see where you are going.
At least with active sensors; passives would collect data as well as
passives ever have, but would that be effective for planning a course?

Garry





  

 



ce bw

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 19:34:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Barren Worlds (was Re: First Thoughts on Marc's FS Data) (LONG)

First off, Marc, let me say that it feels really weird arguing with you!
:-)  Please accept these differences of opinion in the constructive spirit
in which they're meant, even if I get a bit whimsical from time to time.

Quoth CardSharks@aol.com, quoting me:
> > Gelinas strongly recommends that Barren worlds be changed to TL0,
> > which also needs to be performed for this data set.
> 
> What if the world had a colonizing body or a research station or even a
> non-human race who once lived there, but don't any more, and left behind
> ruins or installations. Wouldn't that justify a UWP something like E678000-7
> Ba.

It would, and that sort of thing makes for fascinating detail -- used
sparingly.  The problem is the sheer number of Barren worlds with middling
tech levels.  Let's take just Antares, the first sector in the data
listing, with its 553 worlds.  Of those, 156 (28%) are Barren.  Let's take
just the first ten of those Barren worlds -- _none_ of which, you'll note,
have zero tech levels.

0103 Lampigas E000000-5

Interesting....  I could see, for example, a group of Vilani or other
Second-Empire relics slowly dwindling away throughout the Long Night,
losing tech and population, finally giving out due to disease, disaster,
or dissension amidst their WWI-tech life support systems.  Perhaps the
planet is a prime archaeological/artistic site for the body of literature
they left behind -- "The Lays of Lampigas" are the hottest thing right now
for those who can make out the obscure Vilani dialect.

But entropy is an eternal enemy: how much time can exist between a
culture's disappearance and the dissolution of useful technological
relics?  How many cultures have just happened to expire, conveniently
right in time for their remains to be picked over by Third Imperium
scouts?   Again, I can accept this one rarely, but not repetitively.

0110 Irduukam E798000-3

With a G2V star, this planet is crying out for colonization -- except for
that atmosphere taint.  Okay, an episode of violent vulcanism (on the
scale of the Deccan Traps, say) wiped out the Colonial-tech non-human
native race, and the air is full of dust and sulfur.  Again, how long will
their clockwork last without rusting?

0112 Khaar La D525000-6

Very Thin, tainted atmosphere, 1960's-era tech level?  Okay... the natives
engaged in global nuclear warfare which scarred the surface and ejected
their atmospheric envelope (which is almost impossible to do realistically,
but we'll presume it started thin).  What's left of their tech?  How long
will it last?  Why did they time their autogenocide so conveniently?

What does a "tech level" mean, anyway -- what can be produced by the
inhabitants locally, whatever happens to be lying around, or whatever
looks like it probably was in common use before it got broken by elemental
exposure, etc.?  If the latter, even failed colonies in 1100 (e.g.
Vanejen) should have a good shot at still being listed with Imperial-level
tech -- it may well still be around, after all, even if it is broken. 

0115 Gii (one of several) C87A000-7

An idyllic waterworld, formerly 1970's-era tech.  Um... a worldwide swine
flue style pandemic swept through, and killed all the population.  Even
though it happened centuries ago, and their floating cities have all sunk 
(including their class C starport?) and their intentionally-submerged ones
are flooded and full of barnacles, is the planet still TL7?

0126 Daakhaan B515000-7

Trace atmosphere, 1970's tech.  We already used the thermonuclear schtick. 
Here a rogue star blew through (that pesky M5D secondary companion....),
disrupted the planetary orbits, and the whole planet is now a deep-freeze
a la Fritz Leiber's "A Bucket-full of Air."  Good thing that '70's tech is
built to last....  Especially that class-B starport, probably the world's
spaceport.  Is it still capable of providing refined fuel and annual
maintenance?  At TL7?  The Imperium doesn't exist out here yet, so the
starport can't be maintained by an outside administration with extrality,
etc. (unless the League of Antares is already out this way -- but why
would they want to subsidize a dead, formerly-TL7 world?) 

0131 Nira Am C587000-9

1990's tech?  A bit early to accept that they all left town of a sudden.
Nice dense, untainted atmosphere, so if it was another Deccan-disaster
or asteroid strike there's been plenty of time for the dust to settle (and
the TL9 tech is still around?)  Already did the plague.  Everybody died of
starvation waiting to log on to their version of AOL?  The planet is the
former site of a Jonestown-style religious commune who came all the way
out here (and built a C starport?!) to kill themselves?  See, I'm not even
ten worlds into the listing and I'm starting to have trouble justifying
all the still-existing tech on barren worlds.

0132 Arkiiin (not a valid Vilani word?) D565000-5

Nice planet.  WWI tech.  Couldn't have been the swine flu from above --
neither planet has/had interstellar travel, and as referee I'm honor-bound
not to abuse the same plot thread too often.  Slavers, that was it:
slavers have made off with the entire population of the planet, and
they're all working the mines for the anarchists of Nuush next door
(Antares 0133), who don't include slaves in the level-2 population of
their tech-C planet.  (Which is Poor, so why didn't the Nuushians move
here instead of moving this population there?  Gosh, they're hidebound).

0211 Loki Khuu B324000-8

Very thin, tainted atmosphere, 1980's tech.  The minor race that lived
here committeed suicide, to the last being, when their high-priest saw
the relevant celestial portents.  In reality, it was that pesky Third
Imperium scout ship making its deorbit burn, only to find yet another
recently-deceased culture with technology still intact.

Is this starting to feel like the "cemetary worlds" of the New Era yet? 
Most of these cultures ought to be dead for _hundreds_ of years of Long
Night, not the decades of TNE's Short Nap.  So there shouldn't be much
useful tech left except for archaeologists to pore over -- and does that
deserve to be part of the UPP code? 

0220 Gisashnaa C545000-7
0223 Ganshe    D645000-7

Similar sizes, both with thin, tainted atmospheres and similar
hydrographics, and 1970's tech levels.  Obviously one planet was settled
by the (TL7? er... hey!  FF&S alternate technologies!) interstellar-
teleporting natives of the other, who found the new world quite
hospitable.  Then the great Hand of Game Balance squashed every single one
of them to leave a puzzle for Our Heroes to discover, even if their
cerebella aren't convoluted correctly to use the device, which we'll
conveniently destroy anyway in the finale.

I don't think I'm suffering from a deficit of inventiveness, despite
"giving up" on the last two of the ten above.  But can you really imagine
doing fifteen times the work above -- just for one of the nine sectors
that FS covers?

I was worried when the FS format was first being debated on the list.  I
loved GDW's original sectors: Spinward Marches & Solomani Rim.  There were
some odd combinations, sure, but all in all the sectors _felt_
thought-out, with interesting tidbits thrown in to the write-ups here and
there.  I loathed DGP's massive, completely random, completely untouched
sectors -- it was data for data's sake.  With no thought or development
work invested, what was the use, since each referee would just _have_ _to_
make his or her own modifications and assumptions?  At that rate, it would
be more honest just to recommend people generate their own sectors and fit
them in to the Imperium. 

Here with FS we seem to be getting the worst of the DGP approach: massive
amounts of random detail without thought as to the underlying politics or
situations.  We don't even have the centuries of settled Imperial society
to use to explain away anomalies -- which is why random data suddenly
sticks in my craw so much more for Milieu:0 than for Milieu:1100.  That's
why, way back when TML was first discussing the subject, I proposed
releasing sectors gradually, in association with the Milieu books, so
there'd be time to do them sensibly.  Instead the completists seem to have
won the day, and completely random data will swamp us again.  And that
frustrates me.

Please, Marc, make Traveller better than just a set of random numbers.
Make it consistent, and sensible, and creative, and inventive and
fascinating, in all the ways that it can be.  Don't let the random
bit-flips of your computer and a desire to be "hands-off" and let the
chips fall where they may create a mockery of a galatic tapestry for
Milieu:0 to play itself out over.

Thanks for monitoring the list and keeping us all up to date.  I look
forward to your response.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 00:46:25 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Speed, Relativity & such (fwd)

At 05:14 AM 5/29/97 +0000, Jim Choate wrote:
>
><snip my orginal message>
>
>Actualy no. Remember that as you approach the speed of light the 'size' of
>the universe approaches zero. Visualy what you would see would be the
>horizon move from directly in front of you to a ring centered axialy around
>your velocity vector. In effect the beam can't out run you because the
>universe has effectively shrunk down to miniscule proportions.
>
>Consider, a photon from it's own perspective is everywhere in the universe
>at the same time.
>
>                                                      Jim Choate
>                                                      CyberTects
>                                                      ravage@ssz.com
>
>
The universe has shrunk? Or your ability to perceive the universe has shrunk?

This is where I get shaky in relativity; is it the objective universe that
changes, or the moving person's perception of or ability to perceive the
universe? 

Garry 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1383
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 29 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1384



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Speed, Relativity & such
Re: Extreme Law Levels
Re: FS-Data Starport Distribution
Re: Lasing down jump troops
re:Jump/Casualties
Re: The Imperial Army (LONG)
Re: Hmmmm...Is the truth stranger...
RE: Jump/Casualties
T4 Planetary Readouts
Re: FS statistical impressions
Re: FS-Data Starport Distribution
Re: Speed, Relativity & such (fwd)
J-troops et al
re:Jump/Casualties
Re: Robots/Vampire Fleets
Re: FS-Data Starport Distribution
THWAP?
Re: FS Data: Misc info

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 00:58:09 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Speed, Relativity & such

At 07:12 AM 5/29/97 +0000, Anders wrote:
><snip>
>
>Radars go at lightspeed and lightspeed is lightspeed in all reference
>systems. The problem would instead come from doppler shift as the bounced
>pulse would either get red or blue shifted into undetectable by the
>receiver.
>
>
>/Anders Backman
>Aniware AB
>anders.backman@aniware.se
>
>
>

Ah, so I am not entirely crazy (just eccentric). Now to the next question,
at what speed does the shift problem begin to show up. Is it before or after
an exploitable relativistic effect is achieved. By exploitable, I mean one
where the crew of the ship could make a round trip to another star without
requiring the ship include a mobile retirement home.

Garry

  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:18:17 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Extreme Law Levels

At 11:03 AM 5/29/97 -0700, Bruce had an apostrophe:

>Hey!  I have an idea! lets put on a Show! errr contest. A near C doggie
>bisquit to the winners, a la' THUDD, but we'll pick worlds out of FS or
>Corrected FS with some of these weird numbers and develop library data for
>'em. Detailed stuff like, exactly what IS the basis of this religion and
>what DO they do to the inhabitants that's so opressive, and Why would
>anyone in their right mind ever want to visit?
>
>We can call it  the TML Huge World Assignment Program, or THWAP for short
>;-) (All right, so I thought up the acronym first!) 
>
>Any Takers?

Count me in!
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
|  Creative Planetologist, THUDDer, 20 year vet  |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
|  "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|  about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|  Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|   -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin"  |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:52:04 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: FS-Data Starport Distribution

Chepe notes:
>In such an environment, I could cope with a 10/20/20/25/25 split, say, for
>A/B/C/D/E starports, though a more draconian and "realistic" option might
>be 5/15/25/25/30.  (5% of 4562 worlds would yield 200-some-odd A-class
>ports spread across the nine sectors under consideration, or around 25 per
>sector, 8-12 per government if we postulate 2-3 of those per sector).  For
>what it's worth, the current, completely random FS data is 9/26/29/18/18.
>What does the list think the "proper" distribution should be?

I kind of like 5/10/20/20/40, but then, I feel that about half the worlds
out there are either barren, or are in the very early stages of
colonization.  From an earlier post, I claimed that roughly 10 percent of
all worlds were high ppulation worlds, which covered the class A and B
places fairly well.  (Note that 1/12th of all worlds should be high pop.)


I have been playing that the FS data is correct for 001-0000.

Scott

- -------
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu.  http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz/
"You die, she dies, EVERYbody dies" - Heavy Metal
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment results" -
Calvin Coolidge, attrib. by Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:36:37 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Lasing down jump troops

At 09:32 AM 5/29/97 -0700, Tony Z wrote:

>Actually, I just had an idea for a jump-troop defense.
>
>Forget stealth.  They're ablating their pods to brake against the
>atmosphere.   This will be visible a continent away.  And they'll
>be on a predictable course.
>
>This means that a laser beam can lock right onto them.  Say, a starship 
>laser cannon with ROF 800.  Fire one pulse per target, which will 
>almost certainly kill it.  Have a network of these things set up
>across your continent, and _wham_.  Barbecued jump-troopers.

Drop pods filled with sand casters, programmed to fire sand clouds around
the periphery of the drop envelope, coupled with aggresive fire suppresion
by support ships/fighters.

Also, I'll be doing everything I can to win the Electronic war, so I'll
probably be jamming your sensors.  You'll be depending on visual target
accquisition.

>Of course, you'll need a laser frequency that won't go plasmatic in
>the atmosphere, but any jump-trooper in line-of-sight is dead.
>You'll need the money to erect the defense net, too, which means
>that low-tech or low-pop worlds probably won't have one.
>But attacking a hi-tech hi-pop world with jump-troopers is a very 
>bad idea.

Every defense has a counter.  Fire a false drop of deadfall munitions,
watch what opens up, plaster it.  whiole the dfenders try to find
themselves the real drop begins.

- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
|  Creative Planetologist, THUDDer, 20 year vet  |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
|  "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|  about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|  Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|   -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin"  |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:31:05 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: re:Jump/Casualties

At 05:08 PM 5/29/97 +1000, you wrote:
>On Wed, 28 May 1997, The Stump Family wrote:
>
>[snip]
>> Personally, I think a full division could be deployed from orbit in
>> about 1 hr. (total, including drop time). Regardless of the tech level
>> of the defenders, being able to respond to an entire division anywhre on
>> the planet in 1 hour is well nigh impossible.
>
>You really think so?  I think that they could get some kind of defense
>there within in an hour.   The Americans have (had?) a Rapid Deployment
>force that could be anywhere in 24 hours and be in force within 48 hours.
>Don't you think that in 3000 years a similiar situation could occur in an
>hour?

The late, and unlamented, RDF was a collections of divisions designed to
reinforce Europe during a soviet attack.  They were rapid because they made
use of equipment stored in Germany and eastern France, negating the need to
haul thousands of vehicles overseas.  The original RDF was mutated in the
80s into something that wasn't very Rapid, Deployable, and didn't have much
Force.

Take a look at Desert Shield.  After Bush ordered the ready brigade of the
82nd Airborne to Saudi, it was over a week before the first troops arrived,
and for a very long and nerve wracking time, the only forces over there
were light infantry- the 82nd and the Marines.  If Saddam had  struck south
at that point, they would have been annihlated.  It took three months to
assemble the XVIIIth Airborne Corps, with all its vehicles, and units were
still arriving just days prior to the start of the air war.

When it comes to defending a world, think of it this way..  If I have to
take San Francisco, there's no good reason for me to land my stike force
right on the waiting guns.. I'll seize a beachhead in the Central Valley,
or in the High Desert, and bring down my heavies.  You can't be
everywhere.. and all I need is a a day or so to secure my hold.

- --

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
|   "Wide unclasp the tables of their thoughts    |
|  These same thoughts people this little World"  |
|      - inscription on a stained glass window,   |
|        found in the Winchester Mystery House.   |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:55:04 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: The Imperial Army (LONG)

At 04:43 PM 5/29/97 +1200, R. Boleyn wrote:

>It has occured to me that this style of organization could be the reason
>that the Impies have tended to do more poorly than they should've in the
>various wars they fought in the lare Empire period. The system outlined
>seems to include litte interaction with other arms of the Imperial
>military. This could create that neat situation where the army needs
>support and the navy's busy enjoying themselves chasing ships, when they
>should be providing ortillery.

I purposely left the subject of Navy-Army relations vague, prefering to
focus on the organization of the Army.  Her are a few more details.

The Subsector Navies exist mainly to provide heavy transport capability to
the local Army units.  Along with minor fleet elements (rarely heavier than
Heavy Cruisers (80ktons)), the Subsector Navy is the primary operator of
Transport Squadrons.

During any joint operation, a single supreme commander is selelcted.  If
the mission is the capture of an enemy world, this will likely be the
senior Army commander.  That commander has legal authority over *all*
Imperial forces in his operation.  Failure to obey his orders is mutiny,
punishble by death.  A smart commander will listen when the senior Navy
officer makes suggestions about ship employment, but the final decision,
and responsiblity is his alone.

When in defence, the senior commander is usually Navy.  While the Army
prepares on the planet's surface, the Admiral can make the tactical
decisions, up to and including withdrawl.

>The lack of cooperation between regular and colonial units could cause
>truely distasterous screwups in a spacebattle.

It is true that the difference between Colonial and Regular Army forces are
pronounced, this isn't as true in the Navy.  While Subsector forces might
be using obselete equipment, their training and tactics are the same as the
Imperial Navy's.
- --

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
|   "Wide unclasp the tables of their thoughts    |
|  These same thoughts people this little World"  |
|      - inscription on a stained glass window,   |
|        found in the Winchester Mystery House.   |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 12:13:29 +1000 (EST)
From: Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net>
Subject: Re: Hmmmm...Is the truth stranger...

yOn Thu, 29 May 1997, Bruce Johnson wrote:

ahhh Vacuum Energy.

I hope it is *true* would solve energy problems in Traveller, ahem and the
real world of course :)

> Or is it still fiction?
> 
> >From an editorial in this morning's paper:
> 
> "Walter Truett Anderson:
>         New energy forms are well
>         within our reach
> 
>         By Walter Truett Anderson 
> 
>         S trange news is coming out of the laboratories these days -reports
>         of new devices that can produce amazing amounts of clean energy at
>         low cost. Some experts believe that we may be on the verge of the
>         era of ``zero point energy,'' the ultimate cornucopia - power
>         generated from the mysterious properties of empty space. 
> 
>         This news could easily be dismissed as just a replay of the ``cold
>         fusion'' excitement that flared up and then fizzled out a few years ago.
>         But this time the results - at least in one case - are verified and far
>         more impressive. 
> 
>         The star performer in the new crop of energy innovations is a device
>         called the Patterson Power Cell. Developed by James A. Patterson,
>         chief scientist at Clean Energy Technologies in Dallas, it is a glass
>         enclosure that contains thousands of tiny metal-coated spheres which
>         serve as electrodes. The ``fuel'' - believe it or not! - is plain  water.
>         When zapped with a small amount of electricity - about 1.4 watts DC
>         power input - the cell puts out an enormous amount of heat, in some
>         cases hundreds of times the amount of energy input. 
> 
>         This much has been proven in numerous demonstrations and
>         checked out by many observers. It has been tested by the U.S. Patent
>         Office, which has issued four patents on the invention. There's no
>         doubt that the device generates heat. But there's plenty of
>         controversy about how it does what it does. "
> 
> Wow...if this is right, this is quite impressive. I dug a little further
> and discovered that the beads  are plastic with alternating layers of
> nickel and palladium...so what I suspect may be going on is some sort of
> catalysis reaction with the hydrogen and oxygen separated by the original
> electrolysis, but I freely admit I'm in pure speculation mode here.
> 
> I looked on the web and found a site called 'The Institute for New
> Energy', but among it's references is one article described thus:
> 
> "U.S. Patent Law: Title 35, Part II, Chapter 17, Sections 181-188
>      The text. Very difficult to believe! - YET TRUE! Provided to us by
> Stacey Enderle, who writes: This Title 35 has been used for years
>      to ensnare any inventor out there who's invention will threaten the
> industry the U.S. government protects. --- Spread
>      the warning! ! ! - Thick, Far and Wide! The Full Legal Text (via the
> Cornell Law Library) is also available for you to read. "
> 
> Does anyone else know anything about this amazing 'Patterson Power Cell'?
> 
> Truett's article goes on to gush about the possibility of generating power
> from 'Zero Point vaccuum fluctuations in the universe' which from his
> description involves taking advantage of quantum physical scale reversals
> of entropy...particles and/or waves that arise from 'empty' space
> spontaneously. It sounds to me like a jargon-laden perpetual motion
> machine.
> 
> Comments?
> 
> The full article is at:
> 
> http://www.azstarnet.com/public/dnews/105-0670.html
> 
> But only for today...you have to be a Starnet member to look at back
> issues of the paper.
> 
> Bruce Johnson
> University of Arizona
> College of Pharmacy
> Information Technology Group
> 
> Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
> 
> 
> 


PaChi,

Michael

electric RAIN					http://www.electric-rain.net/


	Build a system that a fool can use and only a fool will use it.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:06:01 +1200
From: Brody  Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Jump/Casualties

On Thursday, May 29, 1997 7:09 PM, Michael Solomani Mifsud
[SMTP:solomani@electric-rain.net] wrote:
> > Personally, I think a full division could be deployed from orbit in
> > about 1 hr. (total, including drop time). Regardless of the tech
level
> > of the defenders, being able to respond to an entire division
anywhre on
> > the planet in 1 hour is well nigh impossible.
> 
> You really think so?  I think that they could get some kind of defense
> there within in an hour.   The Americans have (had?) a Rapid
Deployment
> force that could be anywhere in 24 hours and be in force within 48
hours.
> Don't you think that in 3000 years a similiar situation could occur in
an
> hour?

I think that force is designed to be shipped to prepostioned Equipment
by jet liner and really is limited to hot spots on the globe rather than
pick and fight anywhere.

I would also doubt that it could get anywhere in large enough quanities
to do any good in just 24hours from cold.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 18:03:43 -0700
From: Jeff Cornish <JCornish@appiangraphics.com>
Subject: T4 Planetary Readouts

I'm currently in the mad project of trying to develop a GM/Player aide and 
I need some help with displaying info.

My goal, in short, is to make Career Specific Planetary Profiles, something 
along the lines of the World Builder's Handbook form (IS Form 23, Detailed 
World Data) but customized to each profession's needs.

For example, the WBH form is fine for the average Scout or explorer, but if 
you are an Entertainer, Scholar, or Naval Officer, your information needs 
would be different.  The Entertainer wouldn't care about the geophysical 
make up of the planet, just the major cities, local customs, law levels and 
hazards.  The Scholar would want information focused towards their specific 
field (Demographics, archeological sites, detailed geophysics, etc).  The 
Naval Officer would want a catalog of planets, their satellites, bases, 
military strengths and population data.

A merchant would want details on where the goods are in the system and 
where the buyers are (If the Striegenite mines and smelters are in the 
belt, go there instead of landing on the mainworld and paying someone to 
ship it in!).

I'm basing this form off of the "Regency World Data Form" by... well, I 
forget who right now, but it's a nice form, if it weren't a low-res bitmap. 
 I'm creating my forms in MS Publisher (hey, don't knock it---I didn't have 
to take a college course to learn how to use it!) and plan to export them 
as high-res JPEG's or post-script files.

My problem is when I come to the section on military data.  What should I 
be recording here?  Total size of the army?  Weapon and Transport TLs? 
(imported or natively made?) What would you want to see in an 'at a glance' 
report on Planet Frobniz's military (ground, wet navy, atmospheric and 
space)

If I have to I'll coin my own UxPs to cover these categories (hmmm... "Gee 
Jorge, it says here that their space force's UPP is 3B9D5.  What's that 
mean?")

If your suggestion is a nit, send it directly to me at 
jcornish@appiangraphics.com , if it is an overall criticism of great wit 
and sage advice, post it to the list.  Send all flames to dev/null.

Huzzah!

Jeffrey Cornish

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:25:21 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: FS statistical impressions

At 17:09 29/05/97 -0700, you wrote:
>But on the Tech side, the higher tech levels seem to gravitate toward the
>middle population worlds (6 to 9) with a large number around 0, to 4. 
>These however are reasonable for higher tech outposts, such as mining
>colonies, and naval depots and such like. Still the distribution is skewed
>towards lowpop/hitech worlds pretty heavily:  (I apologize in advance if
>this comes out messed up, use a monspaced font to see it) 
>
>Count of worlds
>      pop                        
>tech  0   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   A  B Total
>0    10   0   7   5   2   7   2   1   2   2   2  0  40
>1    13   7   4   7   3   2   1   2   1   0   1  0  41
>2    28   7  14  10   5  14   4   2   3   1   0  0  88
>3    55  31  18  17  22  21  16   7   4   2   0  0  193
>4   113  43  47  46  36  32  31  15   8   6   1  0  378
>5   173  51  51  56  58  47  24  23  15   9   6  0  513
>6   166  76  68  63  64  57  28  37  17  14   9  0  599
>7   195  75  81  77  72  59  48  46  24  12   9  0  698
>8   171  78  85  86  70  74  56  62  34  17  21  1  755
>9   153  64  79  82  67  74  72  39  42  22  33  2  729
>A   106  48  63  64  57  57  43  37  26  24  22  1  548
>B    68  48  42  52  44  48  47  42  27  19  24  2  463
>C    36  17  28  37  15  30  21  21  16   7  24  1  253
>D     8   9   3   5   8   6   7   7   7   4  14  0  78
>E     1   0   0   3   2   0   2   3   2   0   0  0  13
>Total
>   1296  554 590 610 525 528 402 344 228 139 166 7  5389
>
>	This leads to a problem...if these are truly high tl zero pop
>worlds, then Milieu 0 starts to look like TNE, with lots of stuff out
>there to be discovered and scavenged. Or are these 'best guesses' by the
>Scout service for what used to be there, and these are bombed out, or
>otherwise abandoned planets, with everything of real value gone.
>
I know this has been said before, but: REALITY SHIFT! WARNING! WARNING!

In the MT Referee's Companion it says that the Second Imperium achieved TL
12 in -2210. It also says that the Third Imperium made TL 12 in -150, TL 13
in 300 and TL 14 in 700. The book says 'achieved', not 'had an average TL'
or 'this TL was common'. To me this implies that to all intents and
purposes these TLs weren't availible until the listed dates. 

Does IG want us to belive that the 1st or 2nd Imperium had worlds with a TL
that the 3rd Imperium took 700 years to reach? There's no way the Vilani
would've allowed that sort of TL in their subject worlds, and their own
limit was an absolute TL 11 - otherwise the Terran J-3 breakthrough
woulldn't have meant anything. The Terrans are unlikely to be responsible,
as (as far as I know) Terra, etc. never made it past TL 12.

Not only that with 18 high Hi pop worlds at TL 13, I don't see how the
Syleans stayed at the centre of things. After all this means that 6% of the
Hi pop worlds are of a higher TL than the Imperium.

BTW Is the pop level 'B' correct? If so where did it first turn up?

IMO T4 is like TNE in feel, even if the relics are limited to TL 12- and
I'm not too sure why some people who didn't like TNE's feel seem to like
that of T4 - I mean they're both about reconstruction.

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 97 19:51:23 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: FS-Data Starport Distribution

On 1997-05-29 13:07 thus spake Scott Ellsworth:

>>In my last post (re: spectral distribution), I neglected to include the
>>distribution of stars into single, binary, and trinary systems, so here we
>>go.  Of the 4562 systems covered in the data, 2624 are single, 1821 are
>>binary, and 117 are trinary.
>
>IIRC, there should be more binary and ternary systems that single, but I do
>not have my references here.

IMHO, if anything, there should be *fewer* binary & trinary systems. I 
recall reading somewhere that current theories on stellar system 
formation favour solitary systems.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 97 20:02:06 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Speed, Relativity & such (fwd)

On 1997-05-29 18:46 thus spake Garry Ward:

>>Consider, a photon from it's own perspective is everywhere in the universe
>>at the same time.
>
>The universe has shrunk? Or your ability to perceive the universe has shrunk?
>
>This is where I get shaky in relativity; is it the objective universe that
>changes, or the moving person's perception of or ability to perceive the
>universe? 

If I understand it correctly, it is your perceived *time* that changes.

As you approach the speed of light, you observe the universe "speeding 
up". A clock outside of your frame of reference appears to run more 
quickly.

So if you were a photon moving at the speed of light, you would observe 
the entire life of the universe in an instant. Perhaps everywhere isn't 
the correct word, it's "everywhen".

"No matter when you go, there you are."

:)

Since you're moving, you also perceive yourself to be "everywhere" in 
that instant.

But I may be confusing things here... I admit my knowledge is amateur at 
best.

------------------------------

Date: 29 May 97 22:23:10 EDT
From: Jeff & Michelle Norton <103010.212@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: J-troops et al

	When the pods are released, I sumise, the Imperial Navy will begin to
transmit a wall of white noise, release decoy pods with chaff and decoy flairs,
dummy pods, and, generally, raise hell with the defenders' defense. A jump
trooper could find it relitively easy to land and get into action. Or, the said
trooper could find a warm, or hot, reception.
	Concider the US Airborne. The various times they dropped (N Africa,
Sicily, didn't land at Salerno, Normandy, Nijmegan(?), Grenada, and probally
forgetting a few...) , some times the plan worked (to some degree...), some time
it failed. But in the plans some form of deception, interference, and suprise
was used. I think the same in the 57th century.
	We did a drop in an old game. It started out by a converted 1000 ton
freighter coming into orbit, release 8 strike fighters to hit c&c targets, and,
drop 70 pods. I remember that some decoy and jammer types, but about 120 all
together. I then found out how good a point defense and AAA fire can work.
(About that time, I was reading about the Sicily drop in WW2 and having cold
chills...)
	From what I know about my stay at Ft Bragg, an organized jump today would
be a feat. Becides the AF guys prepping, supressing the locals from firing up at
the carriers, and safeguarding the empty planes leaving after dropping, the Army
planning only begins with the initial mission, the loading (with AF help), and
when they hit terra firma. They are in the hands of the AF until they hit said
soil. Then, its LPC's  (leather personnel carriers (boots)) until the follow-on
comes. (And then you pray...)
	Oh, my old PLT Sgt jumped into Grenada. Said that the AAA was pretty and
the loadmaster had to change his shorts. Said you could smell it when you hit
the door. Kinda feel sorry for the jump master...

	Regards,
	Jeff
	
	Life is a minefield...

	PS Does anyone have the BRTC nutshell for CORPS in a .doc format?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 20:30:26 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: re:Jump/Casualties

At 10:45 pm 05/28/97 -0500, The Stump Family wrote:
>
>Personally, I think a full division could be deployed from orbit in
>about 1 hr. (total, including drop time). Regardless of the tech level
>of the defenders, being able to respond to an entire division anywhre on
>the planet in 1 hour is well nigh impossible.

	Of course, this depends on how badly (and how strongly) you want to
respond ... the unofficial motto of Peacekeeper crews is "anytime,
anywhere, in 30 minutes or less, or the next one's free..."
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 20:36:51 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Robots/Vampire Fleets

At 09:55 am 05/29/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Hi,
>
>Who has a copy of Vampire Fleets? What are the robot construction rules
>like? Are they very different from Book 8?

	Don't have book 8.

>Also, if anyone in Toronto has a copy, would you be willing to
>photocopy the appropriate section for me? Heck, you could even fax
>it to me, it's a local call...

	Let's not get the copyright discussion from the TNE-RCES list going here,
please! This _is_ against international copyright law ... how about if I
see if my local store still has a copy of it (they did a few weeks ago),
and pick it up for you?
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 20:42:27 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: FS-Data Starport Distribution

At 02:42 pm 05/29/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Quoth Jason Anderson:
>> I feel that that doesn't always matter. Depending on your definition of a
>> starport, it is possible to have a starport on a barren world. It could be
>> what the world had before the population died off (for example). Likewise
>> with a low tech world - hundreds of years ago it was in use, but now it is
>> deserted. Of course, if the starport classification means a _fully
>> functional_ starport, then what I just wrote doesn't make sense.
>
>Presumably, inactive and unmaintained starports would degrade rapidly:
>there's fuel to evaporate, comm centers and beacons to break, native life
>to grow in cracks in the tarmac, or vacuum welding to take place....

	Natives steal anything of value left behind, then start taking the walls
themselves for construction material, the local rednecks use anything they
feel like for target practice, etc...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:19:34 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: THWAP?

	Love the sound of that acronym :).  THUDDD, THWAP, and... what's
the next competition going to be?  ZOT?  BAM?  Holy Crokinole, Batman?

Bruce Johnson wrote:

>del	2726	Kiisamguushiirg	E8A6A9C-0
>
>One is our familiar hellhole of a religious dictatorship Saazi, but
>Kiisamguushiirg (named for the sound you make, slipping below the surface
>of this water world?) is pretty much improbable. Stone age billions living
>in the water.


	Can I do this one for the THWAP?  Please?  Pretty please?

	Actually, I think that the THWAP is a darn useful idea.  Gives the
world building fans something to compete over, gives everybody scads and
scads of useful worlds to use in their campaigns, everybody has fun, and so
forth.

	Of course, we'd need a standardized format.  Are there any out there?

R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:45:45 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: FS Data: Misc info

At 03:52 PM 5/29/97 -0500, you wrote:

>>>> 

<excerpt>Well I've jumped on the band wagon of people who have started to
analyze the FS data. Here are the first things that I've seen.


Duplicate Names:	419 Duplicate World Names spread over all sectors


Bases:			25 	Naval Bases

			157 	Scout Bases

			5	"B" Whatever this is?

</excerpt>

B is both scout and naval bases.



- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-

(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|

Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 

Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions

- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1384
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, May 30 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1385



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: FFS2
Flamewars :<
Re: First Thoughts On Marc's FS Data
Dorsai in Traveller
Sector Analysis
Re: Fans and Players
Re: Fans and Players & What I like about T4
RE: X and E ports
Re: FS-Data Starport Distribution
Re: Living Expenses
I.I. Drive
Re: Starport Distribution in FS-M0
Re: M:0/FS Sector data
Re: FF&S and laser design
Re: Speed, Relativity & such
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1378
Re: Extreme Law Levels (was RE: FS/M0 Data)
Re: Starports
Re: Yanks in space!
Hard Times tech question (Ion drives and MPD drives)
First Sector data analysis.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:44:13 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: FFS2

At 03:37 PM 5/29/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Marc writes
>>So why not post or FTP the manuscript so people can look and comment?
>
>
>I think the current manuscript draft is available on Dave or 
>Guy's web sites (maybe they could post the URL?) My main point is that
>it needs *weeks* of playtesting. For example, no-one has yet designed
>a 100,000 kTon ship using the new sensor rules...or probably not even
>the new hull and radiator rules. Lots of stuff has changed; it takes 
>weeks of poking by many people to find the real problems. Ideally, this
>poking should be done at something close to the final manuscript after
>(presumably) Marc and IG have edited it...
>
Bruce,

As of tonight Daves site has nada, I do not know Guy's site's HTML.


- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:34:00 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Flamewars :<

This is my first post to this list and I will try not to offend anyone,
however I need to say a couple of things just to feel better...

I've been involved in Traveller since the late '70's. In fact it was the
second RPG I played and the first I bought. After a few years the game
group I played with broke up, it had been a combination of RPG'ers and
historical gamers and fights over the type of games to play caused the
split.

I backed off from Traveller when MT came out, having invested more money
than I could afford in the original, a growing familly, work, all the
usual stuff, getting in the way. When TNE came out I picked up a couple
of the books and tought to try and start gaming again. Unfortunately I
could get more that occational players together and none wanted to
invest in a new game, nor the time involved in learning the extensive
backround to catch most of the hints I threw into the games. It (the
infant campaign) drifted into limbo.

Then I learned about GDW going under. It wasn't an emmotional thing to
me, being on the fringes of gaming anyway. When I read of IG and Mark
Miller picking Traveller up and re-writing it with th efocus on rules
more in line with the CT rules I'd used for years (years ago)my interest
level jumped up again.

I purchased the basic rules and Starshipd over the internet, since not
ONE store in my area (So. Jersey) carried it! To be honest I was
disappointed with the product. I haven't quite grasped the TASK system
as written, but I could see some good things (to me) in the Chargen, and
other areas. 

Starships was dismal. One of the things I loved about CT was the
starships. I had designs and deckplans everywhere. After the beautifully
crafted deck plans from the TAS and GDW's source books and suppliments,
this book was... well I won't say it.

Anyway to point off all this is that I'm one of the diappointed ones to,
but one ray of light stood out. While learning about IG on the net I
also learned about this list. This, I thought, was my answer. Oh, well,
if I can't find a game group, and the rules aren't what I'd like to see,
maybe the people on this list would fill the void, so to speak. At least
I could game vicariously (role playing at role playing?). Unfortunately
I'm afraid that the flamewars are  going to kill this list. I personally
would regret this. So saying I would like to add my humble voice to
those calling for reason and moderation! Everyone should be able to
voice his/her opinion! But let's also use a little moderation. Why drive
more people away than needs to?

I read the posts that started a lot of this. Refering to Paul Walker's
"Confessions" post I understood waht he was trying to say. Perhaps his
words upset some people, but think aboout what he was trying to convey
and a LITTLE less about how he said it. 

When I read Ken's post I took it as a joke as well. Twolf over reacted!
But Ken, admit it, you did too (just a little maybe.. huh?). 

At this point I think it would be best all around to see it all dropped.
I don't really expect it to be but one can always hope!

Anyway this is just my 2 cents worth!

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:34:50 -0500
From: Alex Rebsch <grazzit@flash.net>
Subject: Re: First Thoughts On Marc's FS Data

At 09:57 AM 5/30/97 +1000, you wrote:

>

>While in most cases tech level should be the same (the example you gave of

>an advanced culture bombing themselves back into the stone age was a good

>one), in the case of now deserted planets I feel that some indication of

>tech level is appropriate, since it indicates that the planet wasn't always

>deserted, and what level of technology the former inhabitants were at

>before they disappeared/left.

>

>

>>...If there are ruins of a former race there, I'd just say so in the notes.

>

>I guess that is the way that is least likely to cause arguments, and also

>allows the referee to have more information than a simple UWP.

>

>Cheers,

>Jason

>

>-------

>Beyond Midnight Software                               <<midnight@kagi.com>

>                                      <<http://www.vision.net.au/~midnight>

>

>             If it's not on fire then it's a software problem.

>


What about adding a trade classification like "R4" where the R stands for ruined civilization and the number stands for the Techlevel of the ruined civilization. Any comments on this idea?


Alex




E=Mail:	grazzit @flash.net


Home
Page:<underline><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>	http://www.flash.net/~grazzit/traveller.html</color></underline>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:49:32 -0500
From: Alex Rebsch <grazzit@flash.net>
Subject: Dorsai in Traveller

Here's something I've been wondering about and wanted to throw to the mighty wisdom of the TML. Has anybody ever conceived of making a traveller version of the Dorsai? 


For those who don't know what I'm talking about, the Dorsai are a subrace of Humans that have specializied in Soldiering and Military arts. They are from Gordon Dicksons "Chylde (SP?) Cycle".


How would you go about making such a race? Making a superior soldier race without making them all into supermen would be kind of interesting. Any ideas out there?


Alex




E=Mail:	grazzit @flash.net


Home
Page:<underline><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>	http://www.flash.net/~grazzit/traveller.html</color></underline>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:53:39 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Sector Analysis

Well I have run some counts on the data in MM FS data and here are some of
the results:

Starports	
A   508
B   1552
C   1740
D   1036
E   1085
X   0

Hmm why no X class starports?
 
UWP   Size   Atm   Hyd   Pop   Gov   Law   TL
0     162    772   1303  1470  2072  2473  572
1     504    334   343   620   361   260   41
2     505    531   405   641   414   306   88
3     607    519   468   668   478   343   193
4     812    591   581   574   499   397   378
5     999    654   659   564   474   386   513
6     790    670   562   438   394   357   599
7     629    504   543   365   338   319   698
8     505    495   392   251   281   292   755
9     278    354   265   147   219   247   729
A     129    198   400   176   150   160   548
B                        7     110   132   463
C                              80    95    253
D                              31    67    78
E                              15    40    13
F                              5     22    0
G                                    18
H                                    7	

How to the above table say you want to know how many Pop B worlds in the data?
Well go down the left hand most column to the B go across until you cross
the column labeled Pop the you find 7 worlds are Pop B. 
These instructions are for the learning challenged such as myself<G>.

Intersting notes seven worlds Law Level Of H nice places to retire and feel
secure.<g>

Ag     412
Ast    162
Ba     1470
De     350
Fl     274
Fl     274
HiPop  330
Ic     153
Ind    174
LoPop  2503
Na     378
Ni     1002
Po     903
Ri     135
Va     772
Wa     400

All for know.

- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 14:50:32 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Fans and Players

At 14:55 24/05/97 -0500, Joseph E. Walsh wrote:

>So, who are we?  Clearly, all of us are Fans of Traveller.  Maybe not 
>fans of every incarnation, but Fans of Traveller nonetheless.  I think 
>that, over the course of months and years, we've come to know who here is 
>a designer - at least, those that aren't shy about sharing their designs 
>on the list. :)  But, really, those two categories are secondary to the 
>Player category.  And that's not so easy to determine here on TML - it's 
>not a forum that is very conducive to showing that one is a player, 
>apparently.  
>
>So, who here is actually playing Traveller - any incarnation, with any 
>home rules; as long as you think of it as Traveller, it qualifies - right 
>now?  Who is involved in a game of Traveller, whether meeting daily, 
>weekly, or monthly?
>
>Who's driving this cart, anyway? :)

Hi, I'm not currently running a game, and the Traveller game I was playing
in (a CT/MT/T4 mix) only lasted a few (great fun) sessions. However I am
currently setting up a non-canon game in my own universe using TNE.

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 00:28:39 -0400
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Fans and Players & What I like about T4

>At 02:55 PM 5/24/97 -0500, Joe Walsh wrote:
<Snip...>
>So, who here is actually playing Traveller - any incarnation, with any 
>home rules; as long as you think of it as Traveller, it qualifies - right 
>now?  Who is involved in a game of Traveller, whether meeting daily, 
>weekly, or monthly?
>

My group (which is to say, the group of which I'm a member...) started with
Bushido back in 1981, then moved to Runes in Space in 1982.  We all loved
the Imperium but didn't much care for the original Traveller rules (we were
young then, and foolish...), so we took Runequest, Other Suns (FGU's
RQ-like SFRPG), and combined them with all of the Traveller backround...
We played this, intermingled with bouts of RQ and Call of Cthulhu, until MT
came out.  MT was nice because it let us play Traveller using Traveller
rules!  Still intermingling with bouts of RQ, we continued until TNE came
out.  Some of the players were a tad daunted by TNE's depth of detail so we
fiddled about with other games until T4 came out.  Now we're playing
Traveller again.  

BTW - What I like about T4 is that it got the local group to play Traveller
again - with clear, simple rules that, though NOT bug-free, DID get us
playing...

- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 17:05:24 +1200
From: Brody  Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: X and E ports

On Friday, May 30, 1997 6:37 AM, Erwin Fritz [SMTP:efritz@glja.com]
wrote:
[snip]
> I'd say that 9,999 times out of 10,000, a world will have at least
> an E- starport, by this definition, which is why I don't agree with
it.
> It's safe to say that, unless your world is a gas giant or is 100%
> covered by liquid or fire, there is always a flat piece of land 
> _somewhere_ that you can use. This makes the X starport definition
> above almost useless (no offense).

A ship should be able to land in water.

> I like the broader definition. Starports must have beacons. An E 
> starport is the most basic starport you can get. An X starport isn't
> really a starport; there's no beacon.

Yep!  Agree with that.  Grease the appropriate palms and you too can
have an X type starport of your very own.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 97 23:14:47 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: FS-Data Starport Distribution

On 1997-05-29 13:42 thus spake Chepe Joseph  Lockett:

>So now I'll argue for _more_ starports.  :-)  Though the Classic Traveller
>history often painted a picture of vast barbaric swathes of space in which
>Sylea shed the only light, we know there "really" were pocket empires all
>over future-Imperial space picking themselves up in the years leading up
>to Milieu:0 -- the Chanestin Kingdom and Interstallar Confederacy were not
>isolated players, and that's three starfaring governments within Core
>Sector alone.  We know that the League of Antares already exists in Year
>0, and Marc has implied that the Geonee and Suerrat may also have pocket
>empires rivaling Sylea's.  Heck, way down Solomani Rim way there's the
>Easter Concord and the Old Earth Union, so that's still two per sector.

Right. So where's the allegiance codes? I think the data needs to have a 
two digit allegiance code, has it just not been inserted yet? Even a "Na" 
for Non-aligned worlds or "--" for barren ones will do.

It's good to get a feel for the political alliances, and trade allegances.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 22:51:30 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@orca.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Living Expenses

>Anyway, what I was asking was whether the '1 part for
>food, 1 part for lodging, and 1 part for other expenses' fits
>your own budget. It fits mine and most of the dozen people
>I asked about it some years ago.

It sure doesn't fit mine. I spend about $300 a month for food, which is
very high since I eat at restaraunts a lot. On the other hand, my rent is
$650 a month for a third-floor walk-up in the dreary section of town. A
co-worker spends $1200 a month for a downtown bachelor suite. This is in
Vancouver, BC, Canada. I imagine the situation would be worse in New York
or Tokyo.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 02:28:54 -0400
From: Thomas Walter Trelenberg <tomt@scri.fsu.edu>
Subject: I.I. Drive

>Since you're moving, you also perceive yourself to be "everywhere" in 
>that instant.

Yeahhhhh!  None other than the infinite improbability drive.  Douglas
Adams would be so proud!!  :->

TT

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 16:36:32 +1000
From: Jason Anderson <midnight@kagi.com>
Subject: Re: Starport Distribution in FS-M0

>>I have to disagree. There should be very few starports of class A (since
>>Sylea is supposed to be the only world to maintain one through the long
>>night), and most will be centered in the Core sector. Maybe around 50-100
>>class A starports? Even that may be too high.
>
>The problem is that this ignores a lot of historical information in the
>M0 book itself, i.e. The Compeditors of the Sylean Empire: The Chanestin
>Kingdom and the Interstellar Confederacy. In order to be compeditors they
>HAVE to be able to construct Starships. No Interstellar Government in the
>Traveller sense is possible without an economy supported, and systems
>defended by jump ships. 1500+ year-old relic ships do not exist.


I thought of that just a few minutes before your post came through (funny
how the mind can work like that). However, except for the my comments on
Sylea being the only planet to maintain ship building during the long
night, I still feel what I originally wrote holds. ie: very few class A
starports in M0. Anyone agree? Disagree? Care? =)

Cheers,
Jason

- -------
Beyond Midnight Software                               <midnight@kagi.com>
                                      <http://www.vision.net.au/~midnight>

             If it's not on fire then it's a software problem.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 08:00:27 +0100
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: Re: M:0/FS Sector data

At 11:52 28/05/97 -0400, Bill Prankard wrote:
>
>I have just recieved my copy of the amended Sector data from Marc this 
>morning, overall, a very good redo. Here are my first impressions.
>
>Here's a strange one, doing a text find in Word, I discovered 2 VLANDS! yes 
>theres another 'Vland' in Fornast sector.  Hex #0340  B260951-8.
>
	This made me remember something about the Spinward Marches sector that was
first published in Supplement 3 back in the good ol' days of 1979.

	I once remember seeing two Heronis, but further investigation reveals that
there are seven(!) occurences of duplicate names in The Marches. They are...

Aramis - Aramis and Trin's Veil subsectors at 3110 and 2540
Heroni - Rhylanor and Mora subsectors at 3017 and 2521
Inthe - Regina and Glisten subsectors at 2410 and 2234
Kinorb - Regina and Rhylanor subsectors at 2202 and 2512
Margesi - Vilis and Rhylanor subsectors at 1020 and 3212
Mirriam - Vilis and Five Sisters subsectors at 1315 and 0333
Natoko - Aramis and Rhylanor subsectors at 3209 and 2620

	Note how most duplicates exist in Rhylanor. Either the people there
couldn't think up there own names, or the subsector was so cool everyone
wanted to be associated with it!

	See ya...


Bruce E J Lewis - mailto:bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk
Telephone - 0956-506527

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:18:22 +0300
From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>
Subject: Re: FF&S and laser design

Jeff Schmidt wrote:

> I'm having a bugger of a time designing man-portable lasers with FF&S.

> Is there a step-by-step resource somewhere that I can check against?

	A while ago I made an Excel 5 spreadsheet for FFS man-portable
	weapon design. The sheet can be used to design CPR guns, lasers
	and gauss weapon, and the weapon data is shown in TNE, T4 and
	CORPS formats.

	The sheet can be found in my WEB page at:

	http://www.ee.tut.fi/~lahtinen/Traveller/MPW-1.zip



        Antti Lahtinen     :     Justice is Only a Wish of a Weak
        lahtinen@ee.tut.fi :

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 97 01:13:04 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Speed, Relativity & such

On 1997-05-29 18:28 thus spake Garry Ward:

>Ship is at point A, chugging at 270,000 kps, emits a radar pulse at 300,000
>kps, effective speed difference is only 30,000 kps. The radar pulse will
>never exceed the speed of light, relative to anything. The pulse travels 1
>second  out from the ship when it encounters an object at 300,000 klicks
>from point A. Call this point B. At the same time the pulse is travelling,
>so is the ship, which has reached point C, 270,000 klicks from point A. The
>effective distance between the ship and the object is only 30,000 klicks.
>The reflected pulse is now returning to the ship at 300,000 kps, the ship is
>moving towards the pulse at 270,000 kps, and the distance each must cover is
>only 30,000 klicks. At best the two will meet at 15,000 klicks from the
>object at point B. The ship's computers and crew have .05 (5 hundreths) of a
>second to react and dodge the object.

This reminds me of a thread I saw on USENET. What happens if I'm driving 
a car the speed of light and I turn the headlights on? Can I see where 
I'm going?

The fundamental mistake you seem to be making is "effective speed 
difference is only 30,000 kps".

Here is *the* basic observation from which all relativity follows: Speed 
of light is constant _in all reference frames_. It is the same for all 
observers. Effective speed difference between a radar pulse (which is 
"light"/electromagnetic radiation) and *anything* is going to be c 
(300,000 kps) *not* 30,000 kps.

I'm still getting a handle on this relativity stuff myself, and it's 
getting late, so I will not figure out the answer to your example using 
the Einstein-Lorentz equations. Sorry.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:43:41 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1378

>> 1 Not show up on airport metaldetectorors
>> 2 Not traceable by ballistics examinations
>>
>> Most criminals would love to have such a gun. In my campaign there's a gun
>> producer on Wurzburg/Glisten that produces a similar one for the same
>> reasons.
>
>I do not think the first reason is very good. Plastic shows on X-ray
>machines of the airports, only with less opaque shadow as metal. And the
>shape of a gun is ...hm... distinguishing. As for metaldetectors, well,
>try carrying an assault rifle in your pants, or under your jacket or
>whatever. Furthermore, the bullets are a major concern. Unless in te
>future they make bullets out of plastic... B-)
>
>Perhaps plastic handgun would be more useful for criminals, a la
>Shadowrun. (It has a plastic automatic pistol..)

Reread my post. I said metaldetectors, not x-ray and nowhere do I state
that it was a rifle.
Actually the real thing (made in the real world that is) is also a handgun
of course.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:50:22 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Extreme Law Levels (was RE: FS/M0 Data)

>Tell that to ex-citizens of the ex-Soviet Union.
>
You'll have to compare two countries with different law levels and the same
gov code. The opressiveness in ex-soviet has more to do with type of
government than laws. Many of the brutalities that the soviet regime
performed on their citizens were actally contradictory to their written
law.

I can only note that my country Sweden which is a pretty high law level
country especially compared to US and there's MUCH less police brutality
here. Either because high law level generally means less brutality or that
US cops are more sadistically inclined take your pick. If you'd like to
respond to this do it in e-mail as it has gone off topic I think.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:56:52 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Starports

>Now, a world may have an A starport and someone could interdict it and make
>it a Red Zone. But the A class starport remains in place, even if unused.
>
>Marc
How should we denote that a system lacks starport facilities of any kind? E
ports as stated in T4 are minimal systems but uncontacted systems might
have none whatsoever. Those might not be common in M0 but what about Zho
core expedition settings etc?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:54:32 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Yanks in space!

>First off, having spent the early part of my misspent youth south of the
>Mason-Dixon Line, I take some offense at the term "Yanks in Space."  :-)
>
>Second, part of the beauty of a space game is that cultures vary.  One
>planet makes H.B. Piper's Texas planet look tame, another can have a very
>homogenous, laid back population that complains that the best Swedish films
>are no longer made in Sweden (An acutal complaint made by a Stockhold local
>that I heard while over there last year).

I'm not arguing that Traveller should be swedish, just that US culture
should not be taken as the normal case as it is so way off the average case
here on earth.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 01:53:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Hard Times tech question (Ion drives and MPD drives)

I've heard that the in-system drives described in Hard Times are rather 
more accurate than those described in FF&S.  Well, I have a question about
these drives and about advanced rockets in general.  

Ion Drives and MPD (Magnetoplasmadynamic) are the two most fuel efficient
drives listed.  However, both are very low acceleration.  MPD is basically
limited to 1% of a G or less.  Now, this is a pretty small acceleration. 
I was wondering how one would go about increasing the acceleration of an
ion or MPD drive.  My first thought would be to increase fuel consumption. 

If you double (or increase by 10X) the fuel consumption, does that double
(or increase by 10X) the thrust, or is the relation between the two more
complex?  Also, do you need twice as much power to power it, or with the
same power plant work to heat and eject twice as much fuel. 

Thanks-


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 12:20:18 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: First Sector data analysis.

an overall problem i have with the sectors closer to Core and the 
Solomani Rim is that most of them have had their names changed to 
Vilani names. However, i feel that since the Ramshackle Empire should 
have also had it s influence in it s 500 year rule, so there should 
be more of the solomani names already. Names in the area of Sylea 
should also be more Solomani influenced.

In Zarushagar, there should be worlds in Wolf and Oasis subsector 
which still belong to the duchy of oasis, who as TD 21, 21 puts it 
were reluctant to join (...)" (the Third Imperium). It also sais that 
in the Rebellion many worlds banded together to form the duchy 
again", so it can be assumed that most of them were part of the duchy 
back in year 0. 

zar 3230 Guudanmi must be changed back to Oasis since without an 
Oasis" there wouldn t be a duchy bearing that name! It s TL should at 
least be A, if not B.
I ll check more in ZAR later.

On to CORE:
2118 Sylea: i can only wonder why this one has been changed. The data 
in M:0 made more sense (almost identical to TD9, except for TL): Law 
level of 0 is not right on the capital of the 3I. It should rather be 
A586A98-C, maybe a little lower in the pop department to leave some 
space for growth later on.
0722 Kuuda, Rename to F'rnow (see TD 9, 35)
0622 Uurgigi, Rename to Sketola (same ref.) Was member of Int. Conf 
under that name.
0128 Sheki, Rename to Protalus, reason, see above. (earliest 
mentioned date: -239)
1623 aggaa Irpu, Already known as Velpare in -258.

I could go on with this name-change liest forever in Core:
I strongly recommend not changing a single name in the Core Sector 
from the 1108-1116 dgp data. Core was already well known enough by 
Syleans, and new names had already been well established (see 
examples above!)! 
I have not yet gone into the UPP s here! I'll do that later. Maybe 
the CORE group could donate something to that extent???

General notes:
Names that are Vilani originally should remain with their original 
names, not be given new Vilani Name. 
Question: Should Frontier regions like Corridor be allowed to have 
LoPop planets with highly developed Starports over level C? 
Likelyhood of 1 them being built and 2 them surviving the long night 
seems low to me...
Also: Vland and Corridor should be limited to TL B, since that was 
the highest that the First Imperium achieved. TL C should be only far 
in between and as for TL s higher than D, they should be impossible 
in M:0


Antares Sector:
ant 2117 Irgi 
- -> Ch28, 31 Name change to: Gashukubi (First Imperium) UPP change to: 
X160056-H 
    Named by Vilani during 1I

Corridor Sector:
Only named that in 140. Name before that: Eneri!!!
Generally too high starport levels for frontier area. Should have 
many more X es, since Corridor only became important when the 3I 
started colonizing Deneb. 
Also, many of the worlds already had vilani names in the DGP-listing. 
Shouldn t those worlds keep that name?

cdr 1511 Luug.(will later be Depot-Corridor, before that 
unpopulated!) UPP->X686000-0
    MTJ 3, 74
cdr 2511 Khegakiir:  Rename Naagasa.... 800 people with starport B?   
    MTJ 2,8
cdr 1711 Giiku Es: Rename Naadi 90 people with starport B?      MTJ 
2,8
cdr 1413 Gamin:   Rename Itasis Nobody with TL 7 and Starport D?    
MTJ 2,8
cdr 0312 Amki:     Rename Muugaagen                 MTJ 2,8
cdr 1209 Kaasu, name stays, but was Mining Colony in Vilani Times, so 
UPP should be more in the area of BA7A540-B (max.)  
cdr 1606 Remains as it is, see history in MT 2, 50
cdr 2806 Ishkad Rename to Uughrae               TD 18, 15

This list for corridor / eneri is by no means complete but forms a 
first basis for discussion, i hope. Concerning the name changes (of 
which there are many more) i also feel that some planets should have 
a change of name anyway, just to add spice, but as it is, too many 
have changed. TL, Starports and Pop digits are generally too high for 
my taste, so a change downward might be appropriate.
I hope this is a good start for our discussion.

Abbrev.:
Ch=Challence Magazine
TD=Traveller s Digest


Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1385
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, May 30 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1386



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: First Survey Spectrography
Re: First Thoughts On Marc's FS Data
Re: First Thoughts On Marc's FS Data
Re: FS trade classifications
RE: FS Statistical impressions
Re: FS statistical impressions
Re: FS Data: Misc info
Re: Starports
Re: multiple names (>4)
Re: Speed, Relativity & such
Re: FS-Data Starport Distribution
Re: Living expenses
Revision of the Massilia Data II: (LONG)
Revision of the UWP Data: B Pop worlds
Re: Yanks in space!
Re: M:0/FS Sector data
TL0 in Vland was not fixed in print
Revision of the Massilia Data I: (LONG)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 12:39:12 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: First Survey Spectrography

 
- ->          O   B   A   F   G   K    M
- ->       I  0   0   0    0   0   0     0
- ->      II  0   0   1    4   4   9    31
- ->     III  0   0   3    9  10  26    54
- ->      IV  0   0   3   11  18  30    51
- ->       V  0   0  49  274 300 385   924
- ->      VI  0   0   2   70  56  59   109
- ->       D  0   0   1  181 132 137 1,705
As far as i've checked, the listed spectral data fits with DGP's data 
however, which was regarded as Canon (TD is Canon, innit?). They 
might be skewed, but fit with the precedents. 
Question: Change it or leave iot as it is? 


Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 12:41:57 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: First Thoughts On Marc's FS Data

- -> I agree that the LL and Gov should be zero for an unpopulated world. I do
- -> not agree that the TL should be, unless we consider it to relate to the
- -> sustainable technology of the culture present.
But don't forget that Pop 0 doesn't mean unpopulated! 
Pop 0 only means 0-9 inhabitants!
 
Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 12:47:31 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: First Thoughts On Marc's FS Data

- ->     * Check proportions of UPP stats.  Gelinas' article includes
- ->         annotation by Dave Nilsen pointing out how broken some of the
- ->         DPG data really was (Zarushagar was a wise sector to exclude,
- ->         since it seems one of the worst offenders).  Do any of the
- ->         remaining FS sectors need to have the physical stats redone?
Don't know, that would be a- lot of work! And would contradict canon!
- ->     * Find frequences of various starports, and consider in light of
- ->         Milieu:0 background and history.  Any changes to be done here?
Yes, see my previous posts about that. there are way too many A's and 
B's around for a society that is just recovering from a collapse!

- ->     * Find all occurences of zero population (with zero stat in the
- ->         population multiplier and "Barren" trade classification) and
- ->         assemble them to be changed to TL0.  Is it reasonable to allow
- ->         for high-tech enclaves of fewer than ten people, or should we
- ->         presume all such were either wiped out by the Long Night or
- ->         haven't yet been established in the Imperial expansion?
They should exist, as they could have been founded in the meanting 
since the rise of the SF and the publication time of FS! 
- ->     * Choose likely candidates to be "owners" of Gov- 6 worlds.
I feel this could be left open for referee's to decide!
- ->     * Correlate rough positions for Droyne & Chirper worlds given in
- ->         Alien Module 5 with those in the FS data.  This is an overly
- ->         picky point, and could probably be skipped.
I feel this should be done anyway! Pity i don't have AM:5 ;-)
- ->     * Consider historical information about Vilani, Sylea, etc. and
- ->         ensure that world stats (Shudusham, etc.) match history.
YES, YES, YES!

Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:00:09 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: FS trade classifications

- -> May I put in a bid for the return to 2 letter classification as well
- -> please!
Seconded! 
Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 12:58:53 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: RE: FS Statistical impressions

Also, Where DO these worlds of TL higher than C get their tech from? 
The 3I  is at the high end of TL C at the moment, rule of man was at 
the lower end of TL C and Valand never went beyond TL B before the 3I.

So where do so many TL D+ worlds come from? 
 


Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 12:56:25 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: FS statistical impressions

- -> del 2726    Kiisamguushiirg E8A6A9C-0
- -> 
- -> One is our familiar hellhole of a religious dictatorship Saazi, but
- -> Kiisamguushiirg (named for the sound you make, slipping below the surface
- -> of this water world?) is pretty much improbable. Stone age billions living
- -> in the water.
ROFML!
Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 12:52:15 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: FS Data: Misc info

- -> Bases:          25  Naval Bases
- -> 
- ->             157     Scout Bases
I feel tha this fits M:0 rarther well, since the scouts are out at 
the moment making recon work and the navy will follow only later!
- ->             5   "B" Whatever this is?
Dunno!
- -> 
- -> 
- -> StarPorts:      508 Type A
Too many! Lessen by a third or half!
- -> 
- ->             1552    Type B
Same
- ->             1740    Type C
??? 
- ->             1036    Type D
More of these
- -> 
- ->             1085    Type E
Ditto
No, X'es???? Must check for that myself!
If this is true, i think we found the first Very bad bubu!
 
Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:28:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Starports

In mail you write:

>>It's really official, or canon, in T4 the dissapearing of X starports.
>>
>>I tought E starports being simply a more o less plain field with a
>>rudimentary microwave or radio bearing system. And X being the 'land on
>>your own'.
>
> The problem with X-ports is that all appear on interdicted worlds. It seems
> a bit odd that all solar system in the Imperium are worthy of E-ports
> unless E-ports are really basic.

The only other place that X ports *really* make sense are on pre-space
worlds that haven't been contacted before. Or on Barren worlds.

Once a world has been contacted, unless it is interdicted, they'll have
made provision for future ships. For worlds with radio, it may be a
case of calling in on the frequency of a local airoprt or seaport (or
even major rail junction) that has a suitable landing site nearby. They
answer, confirm that the site is clear and contact the local government
about getting customs officials out.

For pre-radio worlds, comm may be via heliograph (laser on ship, mirror
and sunlight on ground) or via a sealed radio unit left behind for the
local government. Or you may just be allowed to land and then wait for
the locals to show up to haggle (likely for preindustrial civilizations).

Hmmmm... A pilots guide to various E ports might be worth a JTAS
writeup. What do you think sirs?

> My E-ports is a flat landing pad of ferrocrete or some such and a radio
> transponder that (as all ship transponders) react to navradars. The
> transponder logs all communication and now and then a Scout will come by
> and download the log to assist in locating misjumped ships, tracking down
> pirates etc. There's no extrality fence but the area is still Imperial
> property.

Possible materials are everything from rammed earth (it'll work for
small ships, and work even better if a reaction drive ship uses it a
few times) to cleared (and leveled) bedrock, to stonework such as found
in Roman roads. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:49:52 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: multiple names (>4)

In mail you write:

> Whilst on the subject of multiple occurances of world names, I've found the
> following.  Once again I'm not suggesting that these are 'wrong' or should
> be changed, or can't be explained, I just thought it was interesting.
> (well you know what I mean!)
>
> I *think* this is every occurance of five or more occurances.

<long list deleted>

I can see that I'll have to add a Soundex check of the names to the
program I'm writing. That'll give the likelihood of folks confusing the
names.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 23:14:33 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Speed, Relativity & such

In mail you write:

> On this note, I have a question.  As you get closer the light speed, doesn't
> the ship, at some point, begin to out run it's own active sensors? Not
> knowing the exact speed of a radar pulse, but I would assume that at some
> point the difference between the velocity of the emiting ship and the
> maximum velocity of the radar pulse will be so small, that it is rendered
> useless. How then, without using something akin to psionic precognition, can
> you plot a safe course?

Well, one of the reasons that we have all this length contraction, time
dilation etc is because of the *observed fact* that the speed of a
light beam (or radar pulse) is the *same* regardless of how fast you
are moving.

So the radar pulse still sees the same amount ahead, it's just that
most things are coming at you rather fast. And that cuts down the
warning time. Worse, at those speeds a grain of sand can vaporise an
entire ship. 

Pushing the speed of light has it's hazards...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:04:35 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: FS-Data Starport Distribution

- -> I kind of like 5/10/20/20/40, but then, I feel that about half the worlds
- -> out there are either barren, or are in the very early stages of
- -> colonization.  From an earlier post, I claimed that roughly 10 percent of
- -> all worlds were high ppulation worlds, which covered the class A and B
- -> places fairly well.  (Note that 1/12th of all worlds should be high pop.)
I like this proportions, however i don't agree with you barren point: 
We don't have a tzerrible war that destroyed everything behind us in 
M:0 like we had in TNE. Instead, it was rather a cessation of 
interstellar commerce and traffic that brought the ROM down. Thusly 
the effects on the population shouldn't have been as harsh for the 
worlds! 





Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 22:18:42 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Living expenses

In mail you write:

>         Since a Credit is based on the mentary value of one hour's worth of
> work, why don't we just base it on the minimum wage of the country or
> whatever?

Because an hour of "minimum wage" doesn't *buy* the same amount in
different places. Especially in different countries. A rule of thumb
I've heard for comparing the standard of living in different countries
is this:

	How many hours does a journeyman carpenter have to work to buy
a kilo of the local bread?

The mere fact that the answer is different in different places should
tell you a *lot* about the realitities of economic comparisons.

1. the same amount of the same currency has a purchasing power that
   varies from place to place.
2. the same work has a value (both in currency and in buying power)
   that varies from place to place.
3. the value (both in currency and the "real" value) of a commodity
   varies from place to place.

And note that the *way* these things vary is subject to *political* as
well as economic forces. Tariffs can raise costs. Government rules can
set wages. Etc, etc.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:10:32 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Revision of the Massilia Data II: (LONG)

	I''ve started looking through the Massilia data looking for consistency
problems. I've already found some of them. Here I present one, along with
suggested changes for 41 UWPs. Marc, please let us know if you actually
decide to incorporate the changes.

	Carlos.

PROBLEM: There are 41 Barren worlds with B or A starport in the sector
(mainly B). This just does not fit with the M:0 framework. Moreover, the
sector has clearly too many B starports.

SUGGESTED CHANGE: Take the 41 Barren worlds with A or B starports and change:
	1.- Change the A/B starport to E (I would say to X, but it seems that there
are no more X starports in Traveller).
	2.- Change the Tech Level to 0 (there's nobody there, and with E starport,
there's in fact nothing around, so TL is nonsense).

	This way, two problems will be simultaneously fixed. The subsector will
have a more M:0 appearance, with less B starports and much more empty worlds

	Marc, for your convenience, here you can find the 41 changed UWPs (for the
TML, it's just a page, so I hope nobody thinks is a waste of bandwidth):

mas	0118	Naauun  .	E200000-0	Va Ba 	 	013		A8 V
mas	0301	Shimuniipam.	E788000-0	Ba 	 	000		F6 V
mas	0306	Uupgauund .	E353000-0	Po Ba 	 	004		F3 V
mas	0308	Khaar .	E331000-0	Po Ba 	 	014		M8 V M2 D
mas	0312	Ande.	E88A000-0	Wa Ba 	 	002		F9 VI M5 D
mas	0507	Lukuu.	E544000-0	Ba 	 	004		G7 VI M7 D
mas	0519	Kip.	E87A000-0	Wa Ba 	 	003		F1 D
mas	0524	Khirir  .	E566000-0	Ba 	 	004		F4 V M2 D
mas	0526	Khiranas .	E441000-0	Po Ba 	 	010		F0 V
mas	0604	Khipii .	E797000-0	Ba 	 	012		M6 V
mas	0609	Maaluu .	E456000-0	Ba 	 	004		K1 D M7 D
mas	0733	Nezuuvle.	E451000-0	Po Ba 	 	023		F2 D M2 D
mas	0736	Ruuda.	E561000-0	Ba 	 	000		F2 V
mas	1012	Pasheshaan .	E774000-0	Ba 	 	014		F5 V
mas	1040	Uussuur.	E585000-0	Ba 	 	005		F8 D
mas	1220	Raga .	E557000-0	Ba 	 	003		F9 V M5 D
mas	1235	Mernuuiir.	E747000-0	Ba 	 	003		F8 VI
mas	1325	Mur .	E200000-0	Va Ba 	 	003		F5 VI
mas	1408	Khunda Kuush.	E7A6000-0	Ba 	 	012		K3 IV
mas	1434	Gekakhi.	E453000-0	Po Ba 	 	000		G1 VI
mas	1507	Gukhuushur.	E310000-0	Ba 	 	020		G5 V M4 D
mas	1533	Irdiinga.	E492000-0	Ba 	 	002		F0 D M3 D
mas	1538	Ruur.	E100000-0	Va Ba 	 	015		M1 V
mas	1540	Giilu Em .	E879000-0	Ba 	 	004		F2 D
mas	1601	Ishbe Na.	E000000-0	Ast Va Ba 	 	000		M8 IV
mas	1634	Durpuubiip.	E110000-0	Ba 	 	022		M3 IV
mas	1717	Kuukuurga .	E321000-0	Po Ba 	 	003		F9 IV
mas	1731	Ginga .	E784000-0	Ba 	 	022		G2 D
mas	1835	Garkhi Kuud .	E9A7000-0	Ba 	 	001		M0 V
mas	2040	Lisdiir.	E876000-0	Ba 	 	002		M5 V
mas	2336	Shiim .	E53A000-0	Wa Ba 	 	004		M1 V M3 D
mas	2531	Kaguu Puu.	E500000-0	Va Ba 	 	014		M3 V
mas	2605	Ziishke Men.	E433000-0	Po Ba 	 	003		K8 V M9 D
mas	2731	Paiim Ka.	E100000-0	Va Ba 	 	003		G8 V M7 D
mas	2735	Khuuan  .	E110000-0	Ba 	 	031		M4 V M7 D
mas	2737	Khasnekigi.	E673000-0	Ba 	 	004		F9 V
mas	2906	Niksham Luur.	E646000-0	Ba 	 	003		K3 V M8 D
mas	3009	Geir Aar.	E000000-0	Ast Va Ba 	 	014		M3
V
mas	3027	Vlides .	E100000-0	Va Ba 	 	002		M6 V G6 D
mas	3207	Irge .	E300000-0	Va Ba 	 	003		M9 V
mas	3225	Maruu .	E568000-0	Ba 	 	005		F3 D
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:15:05 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Revision of the UWP Data: B Pop worlds

        A problem I already pointed at in FS, is still in the data file.

	PROBLEM: These worlds

cdr	3225	Shaniin .	C226BEE-9	Ind HiPop 	 	810	M1 V
dag	2512	Irash.	B220BAD-C	Na Ind Po De HiPop 	 	500	K2 V
del	0512	Khakakir.	A000BDD-9	Na Ind Ast HiPop Va  524   G2 V M4 D
del	1213	Sabaagiirar.	B767BAC-A	HiPop 	 	802	K4 V M5 D M2 D
lis	0626	Gishgi.	A300BBB-B	Na Ind HiPop Va 	 	100	K4 V
lis	2333	Leim Ku .	B360BC9-B	De HiPop 	 	412	M9 D
mas	0510	Shig .	B362BAB-8	HiPop 	 	404		G2 V

	These worlds hold more population than ENTIRE SECTORS. Please notice the
enormous scale of the effects that their inclusion in the Traveller universe
would have. They hold an enormous fraction (I estimate roughly 1/3) of the
population of the universe, and they are only 7 worlds! Such worlds would
totally change the face of the universe. Statistically speaking, they are
total outliers...
	These worlds create curious situations: The population of Corridor is more
than twice that of Vland. Well, it's not surprising, since there is a world
with 800 thousand million inhabitants (800 billion for you in the US). The
whole sector has just 1,113 thousand million.

	SUGGESTED CHANGE:  Change the B Pop to A Pop in all 7 worlds.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 22:18:12 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Yanks in space!

At 10:54 30/05/97 +0100, Anders Backman wrote:
>I'm not arguing that Traveller should be swedish, just that US culture
>should not be taken as the normal case as it is so way off the average case
>here on earth.
>
By that measure we should be playing 'Indo-Chinese in Space' :)

R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:13:31 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: M:0/FS Sector data

- ->     I once remember seeing two Heronis, but further investigation reveals that
- -> there are seven(!) occurences of duplicate names in The Marches. They are...
- -> 
- -> Aramis - Aramis and Trin's Veil subsectors at 3110 and 2540
- -> Heroni - Rhylanor and Mora subsectors at 3017 and 2521
- -> Inthe - Regina and Glisten subsectors at 2410 and 2234
- -> Kinorb - Regina and Rhylanor subsectors at 2202 and 2512
- -> Margesi - Vilis and Rhylanor subsectors at 1020 and 3212
- -> Mirriam - Vilis and Five Sisters subsectors at 1315 and 0333
- -> Natoko - Aramis and Rhylanor subsectors at 3209 and 2620
- -> 
- ->     Note how most duplicates exist in Rhylanor. Either the people there
- -> couldn't think up there own names, or the subsector was so cool everyone
- -> wanted to be associated with it!
Consider this: On this planet we have lots of multiples of city 
names. People moving in from a different city, who founded the new 
place often gave it the name of their place of origin, feeling a 
little at home in their new place (Loads of theose in US or Canada!).
This could have happened in Imperial space as well, especially in the 
SM, which was settled in waves.
Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:17:04 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: TL0 in Vland was not fixed in print

Marc Miller wrote:
> 3. All Vland Sector worlds have TL=0. This was fixed in print.

Sorry, but it was NOT totally fixed in print. I reproduce here one post I
made some time ago, referred to the FS printed data:

From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: First Survey and the Tech Level of Vland
(Snip)	...the Tech Levels of Vland Sector.
The summary says "The average tech level in the sector is 0 (ZERO) (most lie
between 0 and 0)"... what a funny typo, I thought... unfortunately, its
worse than that.
	The Vland sector is full of TL 0 (ZERO) worlds. Dozens and dozens of them.
The problem is that those worlds are not barren, and have no X starports.
Take a look, for instance, at the Answerin homeworld:

0431 Answerin    B-5848BB-0

	How can we have a world with 500 million inhabitants and a B starport, at
TL 0? According to the CT/MT/T4 rules, that B starport gives a DM of +4 for
rooling TL, that should be 1D+4, i.e. some number between 5 and 10.
Certainly, not zero. some more examples:

0232 Shimshirar  E9C7755-0  Fl
0637 Bood          A240100-0   Po De Lo
0740 Kirov           B683644-0   Ni Ri
0801 Diir             E62A788-0   Wa
1313  Aadas        C778666-0   Ag Ni
1437  Igikuuni       B797755-0   Ag

	I could go on with dozens of examples like this... Igikuuni should have a
DM of +6, implying a TL between 7 and 12.

	The problem seems to be specific of Vland sector. In Massilia sector, there
is not even a single one TL 0 world (in fact, there is the opposite problem:
how comes dozens of Barren worlds have high TLs?) In other sectors, there
are a few TL 0 worlds that should be a bit more advanced, like Arkauummesh
(Antares 1132, E-694555-0 Ag Ni). There are at least 4 cases in Antares and
two in Gushemege. But in Vland, there around 60 (SIXTY) non-barren, non
LowPop, TL 0 worlds.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:06:17 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Revision of the Massilia Data I: (LONG)

	Dear TMLers, dear Marc:

	I've gone through the Data File for Massilia, looking for
compatibility problems with other traveller products. Massilia was
presented in the Knightfall adventure, where the library data from TD 11
was reproduced, and many worlds where detailed in one-page write-ups.
One subsector (Shiwonee) was presented at TD 11, along with a several-
page write-up for one world and details on the Geonee.
	I've found compatibility problems indeed, and I am presenting
them here, along with suggested fixes. I will continue to examine the
data, now looking for possible internal consistency problems.
	Marc, please let me know if you actually make the changes.

	Carlos the Geonee-maker, Massilia chartographer ;-)

=====================================================================
Format: n.- Name (M:0 / 1120)
	D) Problem data in data file
	P) Explanation of the problem
	S) Suggested change

MAJOR COMPATIBILITY PROBLEMS:

1.- Eruur / Far Trinity
=======================
D) mas	1025	Eruur .	E767774-3	Ag Ri 	 	301	F4 V M9 D
P) This world, known as Far Trinity in 1120, was extensively presented in
Traveller Digest 11. Quote: "It is not known exactly when the system was
first colonized, though there is evidence that a small outpost may have
existed as early as 159. It is currently believed that the first colonists
were part of a 'lost expedition', eventually crashing on the world and
reduced by environmental hardships and misfortune to a very primitive
technological (some might say barbaric) state."
	So, a 30 million population in M:0 does not fit, specially since, in
1120, it has only 6 millions according both to TD 11 and the Knightfall
adventure.
S) Change UWP to:  E767000-0  Ba  001

2.- Aankhi An / Anamoni
=======================
D) mas	1510	Aankhi An.	B99A751-A	Wa 	 203 F7 D
P) According to Knightfall, "Anamoni was settled in the late 400s... entire
planet surface is ice...". So, the planet should be Barren.
S) Change UWP to:  E99A000-0  Ba Wa  003

3.- Mia / Riarette
==================
D) mas	1808	Mia.	B110788-B	Na 	 314	F4 VI
P) According to Knightfall, this world was first settled by Vilani refugees
during the RoM, but the colony died out. In year 50, 3I scouts discovered
the artifacts, which yielded unspoiled information about the Ziru Sirka
culture.   So, there should not be a population of 30 million there.
	Also, the star type was F6 VI in Knightfall. It has changed.
S) Change UWP and star type to: E110000-0  Ba  014  F6 VI

4.- Kashikka / Wikk
===================
D) mas	2010	Kashikka.	B648224-8	LoPop 	 224	F3 V M7 D
P) According to Knightfall, "Wikk was originally settled in the 600s". This
poses no problem for the population (Low, can be anything), but does not
fit well with a B starport.
S) Change UWP to: E648000-0  Ba  024

5.- Murcia / Murcia
====================
D) mas	2109	Murcia	E564100-5	LoPop 	 	814	K2 V
P) According to Knightfall, Murcia was originally settled during the RoM
(I believe it: Murcia is the name of a spanish province), but Vilani
concepts and culture allowed the locals to survive through the Long
Night. They joined the 3I in their early years. But I do not see just 80
people as the Long Night survivors asking to become a member of the
3I.
S) Chane UWP to:  E56489A-5  Ri  814

6.- The Rebin Empire
====================

D) mas	0212	Enrique	C200A87-B	Na Ind HiPop Va 	 504	F1 V M8 D
mas	0213	Kaaar Gemaar .	B9E78CC-A	Fl 	 	702	M7 II G0 D
mas	0214	Shigi	D648844-6		 	513		G0 V
mas	0312	Ande.	A88A000-C	Wa Ba 	 	002		F9 VI M5 D
mas	0314	Ergo	A200766-E	Na Va 	 	204		F6 D
mas	0315	Uurki Guurk .	C100000-9	Va Ba 	 	000		M5 V
P)	According to Knightfall and TD 11 (Massilia Library Data), the
Rebin Empire (0212, 0213, 0214, 0312, 0314, 0315) was a Pocket
Empire around Year Zero. Rebin (0312) is the homeworld of a highly
technological, matriarchal culture that settled the inhospitable systems
around itself in the latter part of the Long Night. Although in 1120 Rebin
itself is reserved for noble estates, with a Pop of 20,000, it should not be
the same in year zero if Rebin has settled the inhospitable systems
around itself in "the latter part of the Long Night". Or, at least, it should
not have ZERO population, as it's the case. And, in any case, there is no
reason to put Vilani names on these worlds. The names of the worlds
would have to correspond with the local ones, or, at least, the
homeworld, Rebin, should be called Rebin, given that (quote Knightfall)
"The powerful matriarchy of Rebin dates as far back as any historical
records exist". As three of the six names coincide between the porpesed
ones and the 1120 ones, the easiest thing is to change the other three.
	On the other hand, if in 1120 (under the 3I) various worlds are
colonies, they should also be colonies in 1120, with captive
governments. Governments type 8 or 4 do not fit well with the history.
Charismatic oligarchy (C) could be discussed, but poses no real problem.
	Also, system 0315 being barren puts it out of the "settled
planets". It would be more consistent if the planet had population, so it
would be good to change it to LoPop.
S) Change the names and stats to:
mas	0212	Enrique	C200A67-B	Na Ind HiPop Va 504		F1 V M8 D
mas	0213	Naston  B9E78CC-A	Fl 	 	702		M7 II G0 D
mas	0214	Shigi	D648864-6		 	513		G0 V
mas	0312	Rebin	A88A736-C	Wa 	 	502		F9 VI M5 D
mas	0314	Ergo	A200766-E	Na Va 	 	204		F6 D
mas	0315	Abarre	C10046A-9	Va LoPop 	700		M5 V

7.- The Geonee worlds
=====================
D) Newly generated Vilani names for 7 of the 8 Geonee "traditional" worlds:
	0928, 1027, 1028, 1130, 1131, 1330, 1430 (1029 has its Geonee name)
mas	0928	Duuir .	
mas	1027	Inkhuug .
mas	1028	Lalii  .	
mas	1029	Lagna	
mas	1130	Duundam E.	
mas	1131	Vluuper Pim.	
mas	1328	Kiimda .	
mas	1330	Muusha  .
mas	1430	Asadug .
P) There is no reason to put a Vilani name on the homeworld of the
Geonee, nor in the rest of their worlds. The colony at Tlasov (1120),
called Kiimda in the data, could keep its Vilani name, as it is not one of
the eight traditional worlds.
S) Change the names to:
	0928: Rigaal
	1027: Hiponee
	1028: Dreva
	1029: Lagna (i.e., keep it as it is)
	1130: Stenardee
	1131: Ashavakuna
	1330: Prindee
	1430: Shiwonee

Note: The A pop of Shiwonee does not fit very well with the details
presented on TD 11 (the Geonee being nomadic, the temperate zone
moving, impossible to build a large pop), but I've already come up with a
history (orbital cities, advanced wheather control for whole continents,
etc...), so, in fact, I think it's better to keep the Hi Pop for the Geonee
homeworld.

	MINOR COMPATIBILITY PROBLEMS:

8.- Kiig Ki / Nilton
====================
D) The star type is F1 VI in the data.
mas	1239	Kiig Ki.	C684522-8	Ag Ni 	 	304	F1 VI
P) It was F1 V in Knightfall.
S) Change it back to F1 V.

9.- Lamgupuuan / Dezik
======================
D) mas	0228	Lamgupuuan.	B9C8326-B	LoPop Fl 	 805	M8 V
P) According to both TD 11 and Knightfall, "Dezik is a subgas giant with
a hydrogen atmosphere... this unparalleled opportunity to study the
processes of planet formation brought the original scientific colony to
Dezik. It has since grown to about 2,500 sophonts (1120) from several
cooperating races". It does not fit well that it has more population (8,000)
in year zero, and, specially, with the B starport. It would be better to keep
it as Barren, so the scientific colony will be established way later.
S) Change UWP to:  E9C8000-0  Ba Fl  005

10.- Uugbi / Gasha
==================
D) mas	1508	Uugbi  .	B250200-C	Po De LoPop 	 824	G4 D
P) According to both TD11 and Knightfall, Gasha is (1120) the location
of a research institute, which colonized Gasha in 453 to study the Ilraiki
race and its evolutionary adaptation to this planet as it grew colder. In
1120, Pop is just 5, so, whatever the reason, it seems that the Ilraiki race
is not counted in the Pop (either they are not truly sentients, or they are
extinguished...). It should be the same in M:0, but, the institue appears at
453, so it is not there, either. So, neither the Pop nor the B starport fit
well, not to speak of the C tech level.
S) Change UWP to:  E250000-0  De Ba  024
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1386
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, May 30 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1387



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Starport Distribution in FS-M0
Jump Troops
Re: THWAP, wierd worlds, etc...
Re: FS statistical impressions
Re: My Mistake
Re: X-ports
Pocket Empires Review?
Re: Living expenses
Re: FS Statistical impressions
Sector Data and Maps available...
Speed, relativity, and such
crime and punishment of smart guns
Swamp World!
Re:Smart Guns
Re: FS/M0 Data
Re: Extreme Law Levels
stealth guns
Re: Revision of the UWP Data: B Pop worlds

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:33:45 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Starport Distribution in FS-M0

- -> starports in M0. Anyone agree? Disagree? Care? =)
At least  a lot less than in the posted data! 
Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:32:43 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Jump Troops

Has anybody already mentioned the description of Drop Tactics and 
covert drop operations in MTJ 3 by DGP? 
I found that to be very interesting!
^
Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
- ---- Student of Law, Gamer, Illuminatus Primus, Slayer of Windows95 --

- -----  "Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!" -----

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:49:00 -0400
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Re: THWAP, wierd worlds, etc...

Since we were getting in the subject of "Strange Worlds"  I just wanted to 
say something about my favorite world ever in the history of Traveller, 
Efate.



Year 1100 A646A30-D

Here you have a world ruled by a self perpetuating oligarchy, with a thin 
tainted atmos and lotsa people and a good solid tech, but most 
importantly....NO LAW!  I understand the law level is 0 at this time because 
of the Zhodani occupation or the Ine Givar Terrorist attacks.  The 
Government is a 'provisional' on set up by the Zho's.  For the setting, I'm 
thinking something very much like French Resistance in WWII, with major 
paranoia because of Zhodani mind reading, and then there are the lovely 
Teleport Commandoes!  Yes, Anarchy with Plasma Rifles, gotta love that! :)

After the war, not much changed.  I can bet that the Typical Imperial Efate 
Citizen during the MT era would be vehemently against psionics.  The 
'provisional government' was replaced by a council of corporations.  These 
corps specialize in military tech, what better place to 'test' than on a no 
law world where the populace has had 'experince' in warfare?   This begins 
to look ver much like a "Bladerunner" or "Gibsonesque" Cyberpunk world, 
without the cyber.  The Corps are in control, the populace are 'edgerunners' 
doing 'favors' for "Mr. Johnson" for that new Battle Dress they always 
wanted.

Year 1200 A646A30-F

Well after the Virus Wars, the corps upgraded the tech to F, to better 
produce more military technology to fight against the Virus.  With the 
influx of Zhodani refugees, the friction has increased.  Actualy, No Zho in 
his right mind would want to "emigrate" to Efate(they think Efate is one big 
Insane Asylum), not unless he has got some serious firepower!

On Efate, the first thing you see are people wit big guns, battle dress,, 
etc...  Might makes Right.  It can be a fun world, but unless you are 
prepared, stay in the starport for this world is rough!

Commander X

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 08:08:20 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: FS statistical impressions

> del 2726    Kiisamguushiirg E8A6A9C-0
> 
> One is our familiar hellhole of a religious dictatorship Saazi, but
> Kiisamguushiirg (named for the sound you make, slipping below the surface
> of this water world?) is pretty much improbable. Stone age billions living
> in the water.

Hmmm.  If I recall correctly, hydrographics A simply means the surface is 
around 95% covered by water, but it doesn't say how deeply it is covered 
by water.  

'Course, they could always be living on rafts, I suppose, if you want to 
go with the deep-water theory.

Then there's always the possibility that the inhabitants aren't humans as 
we know them.  Maybe they have gills, or some other adaptation that 
allows them to live in the water.  Or, if you want to go with the 
shallows theory, they live in and out of the water, as necessary.  

I'm sure there are other possibilities...


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh  |  Game Designer for Marc Miller's Traveller
_________________|  Atari 1200XL and Apple IIGS User and Programmer

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:16:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: My Mistake

> >Also, if anyone in Toronto has a copy, would you be willing to
> >photocopy the appropriate section for me? Heck, you could even fax
> >it to me, it's a local call...
> 
> 	Let's not get the copyright discussion from the TNE-RCES list going here,

Ok, call off the lawyers!

> please! This _is_ against international copyright law ... how about if I

You're right of course. I should know better.

> see if my local store still has a copy of it (they did a few weeks ago),
> and pick it up for you?

Is it still full price? I got FF&S for $5, so I'd hate to pay a lot more 
for VF. Let me know how much it is.

Thanks,
Ethan "It's, uh... for a review, yeah!" Henry

- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 08:01:43 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: X-ports

Thomas Walter Trelenberg wrote:
> 
> >It's safe to say that, unless your world is a gas giant or is 100%
> >covered by liquid or fire, there is always a flat piece of land
> >_somewhere_ that you can use. This makes the X starport definition
> >above almost useless (no offense).
> 
> None taken:->  I would like to point out a few reasons that one might
> not want to land on a planet....especailly if you are a survey crew who
> is more or less "on their own" and with slim chances of another ship
> dropping by to lend assistance within the twenty years.
> 
> Feerinstance:
> 
> -I would not want to land on a planet with surface conditions like Io.
> Having the bedrock I landed on split apart, with magma pooling around
> the landing struts would give me cause for concern.
> 

So you land somewhere else on the same planet. The ENTIRE surface
of Io isn't unstable; there are places you can land.

> -Severe weather conditions--While "the big Corilian ships" might be
> immovable, smaller survey ships might have difficulty coping with wind
> sheers orders of magnitude stronger than relatively tame stuff we
> normally see here on Earth.
> 

Excellent point. However, this is one of the 1 in 10,000 worlds I
mentioned. 

> I know this doesn't fit in with the way you choose for your universe to
> run....but it could be an alternate that might possibly answer the
> question asked earlier about "E"s and "X"s.
> 

True. I'd give both of your examples a X rating, only because there's
no beacon there. You'd give them an X rating because there isn't a
safe place to land. On that we agree.

However, if a safe landing spot were found on the first world (a
high mountain plateaus known to be geologically stable) and someone
puts a beacon there, it's an E starport (in my universe). If a deep
valley is found that is sheltered from the wind, in the second example,
and someone puts a beacon there, it's an E starport.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 16:11:45 +0100
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: Pocket Empires Review?

Hi,

	My local store has just told me that they've got Pocket Empires in. I
think I may have missed a review of this as I've only been back on TML for
a few weeks, so could someone be so kind as to forward me any review that
was posted that I may have missed? Many thanks!

	See ya...


Bruce E J Lewis - mailto:bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk
Telephone - 0956-506527

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 08:47:50 -0500
From: Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com>
Subject: Re: Living expenses

Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> While I like the idea in principle, I suspect that it won't give good
> results in practice. Minimum wage rates tend to be determined for political
> and idealogical reasons, rather than for straight economic reasons. Frex
> here in New Zealand the Minimum hourly rate is NZ$7.5, which is about
> US$5.175 and I suspect that in some third world countries it could be
> measured in dollars per month.

	Maybe you're right. I just figured that the per-hour minimum wage would
be a good basis for determining the value of a credit, especially since
this was the supposed basis of the credit's value. I wonder what the
Australian minimum wage is compared to US, after being converted to US
dollars? That would give a (somewhat US-centric) constant currency basis
to really compare these two. I suspect that the fact that third world
countries have such dismal incomes when figured in US dollars is
probably as a result of "TL" and "starport" (read, industrial base)
differences. In PE, the real currency value of a Resource Unit is based
on the Gross World Output - the lower the output, the higher the cost of
a given set of resources in constant currency terms.

Ryan Christensen	
litefoot@feist.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 02:46:30 +1200
From: Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: FS Statistical impressions

>Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 12:58:53 MET
>From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
>Subject: RE: FS Statistical impressions

>Also, Where DO these worlds of TL higher than C get their tech from? 
>The 3I  is at the high end of TL C at the moment, rule of man was at 
>the lower end of TL C and Valand never went beyond TL B before the 3I.

>So where do so many TL D+ worlds come from? 

Okay, I'm going to play heretic here. (Andrew slips into RPG mode as
Prof. Frederick Hans-Waven, holder of the chair of techno-archology,
Sylean Polytechnica, 1108)

It is commonly supposed that the RoM did not exceed tech level 12 and that
the Ziru Sirka tech level 11. Whilst one can safely assume this to be the case
for the Ziru Sirka, one cannot for the Rule of Man. We know that the Terran
Confederation achieved tech level 12 around -2200, leading to their victory
in the 8th Interstellar War (the invention of jump 3 drives playing a vital
role in that conflict). However the Rule of Man did not come to an end for
another 500 years. To assume that they remained at the lower end of tech
level 12 for this entire period is possibly an error. Whilst the Terrans most
certainly would have not been able to devote the same degree of
resources to research and development, it would seem to go against virtually
everything we know of the early Solomani culture to assume that it simply
came to a grinding halt with the absorbsion of the Ziru Sirka.

Given the 500 year period it is not unreasonable to postulate that the Rule
of Man did indeed advance some considerable way towards tech level 13,
perhaps even breaking through the (hypothetical) boundary into that
level in certain fields. Certainly there are some Imperial and Sylean
publications dating from the founding of the Imperium which do allude
towards a higher level of Rule of Man technology, particularly in the fields
relating to the military and weaponry. I present here an abstract taken from
the first edition of "Carnak's Surface Weapons" published on Sylea in 59;
which makes mention of experimental tech level 13 Rule of Man weaponry,
and TL 14 and 15 theoretical studies. This certainly does not fit into our
established view of the Rule of Man's technology base. I would dare to
advance that the Rule of Man's technology may well have been more
advanced than we (seperated from them by the mists of nearly 3000 years)
currently believe. It is however certain that a large portion of the early
Imperiums research was dedicated to recovering Rule of Man technology;
which would appear illogical if the Sylean's had already surpassed that
technology.

This naturally begs the question; if the early founders of the Imperium had
evidence that the Rule of Man achieved better than tech level 12, why do
we in the 12th century of the Imperium hold that they did not? I can find no
records of archological discoveries which invalidated this early evidence
(though they may exist in some dusty archive). I would dare to propose that
the answer may possibly be found in politics. With the succession of the
Solomani from the Imperium, it simply became politically expediant to advance
that the Rule of Man only achieved the bearest of tech level 12, thus helping
to undermine the Solomani claims of racial superiority.

(Andrew takes over from the good professor)

Remember that the canon that the RoM was tech 12 can simply be viewed as
the late Imperial belief that the were; one can allow that to be changed a
little
for M:0 without too much difficulty (heavy emphasis on the little).


  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
"Baby, Mother, Hospital, Scissors, Creature, Judgment, Butcher, Engineer"
      -:  OMD, 19-2-1983
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 08:16:11 -0700
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Sector Data and Maps available...

Gratuitous self-promoting plug:

I saw someone's post about sector data being available on their site so I
thought I'd let everyone know that the "Known Space" section of my web page
has 1202/1117 data for five complete sectors with links to five other sites
with 1202/1117 data.

There are GIF subsector and maps for all sectors at my site. Pay it a visit:

http://www.cris.com/~Cgriffen/traveller/sectors/sectors.html

The Known Space sector is the fastest growing segment of the page. Coming
soon: 1202/1117 data for Massilia, Trojan Reach, Antares and Reft.

There are other features as well at the site, so come on by and pay me a
visit. See the navigation bar at the bottom of the Known Space page to
check them out.

Best,

Chris Griffen

===================================================
Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.

http://www.cris.com/~Cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml


- --------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                      Phone: (408) 527-7189
Cisco Systems, Inc.                      Fax:   (408) 527-0452
NMBU Technical Publications              cgriffen@cisco.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 11:25:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Speed, relativity, and such

   Hi.

> Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 00:46:25 +0000
> From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>

> The universe has shrunk? Or your ability to perceive the universe has shrunk
> This is where I get shaky in relativity; is it the objective universe that
> changes, or the moving person's perception of or ability to perceive the
> universe? 

> Date: Thu, 29 May 97 20:02:06 -0600
> From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>

> If I understand it correctly, it is your perceived *time* that changes.

   Actually, it is not a case of things shrinking OR of perceptions
   changing.  It is a case of length and time not being /invariant/, ie,
   they are different things in different reference frames.  

   As an analogy, consider velocity.  If I throw food at my brother 
   while we both eat on a jetliner, he gets a 10-mph pie in his face. 
   To an observer on the ground, however, the pie is moving
   substantially faster than 10 mph; it gets a 400-mph `boost' from the
   airplane.  So how fast is the pie /really/ going?  Answer: it is
   /really/ going at different speeds in different reference frames.
   This is not a question of perception; the velocity of the pie truly
   is different in different reference frames.  Velocity is not an
   invariant, as you probably already know; this is something that
   scientists have understood since the days of Galileo, and something
   that high school students know if they pay attention in Physics I.

   Now, just past the days of Einstein, we understand that length and
   time are not invariants. How far is it /really/ from Sol to Alpha
   Centauri?  Answer: it /really/ depends on your reference frame.  How
   long does it /really/ take for someone to get there?  Again, it
   /really/ depends on your reference frame.  Length and time are not
   invariant in Einsteinian reference frames, although they are
   invariant in the old Galilean reference frames that we learned about
   in Physics I.  Unfortunately, Galilean relativity breaks down at high
   speeds, so we need to use the new, trickier Einsteinian relativity.

> On 1997-05-29 18:28 thus spake Garry Ward:

>>Ship is at point A, chugging at 270,000 kps, emits a radar pulse at 300,000
>>kps, effective speed difference is only 30,000 kps. The radar pulse will
>>never exceed the speed of light, relative to anything. The pulse travels 1
>>second  out from the ship when it encounters an object at 300,000 klicks
>>from point A. Call this point B. At the same time the pulse is travelling,
>>so is the ship, which has reached point C, 270,000 klicks from point A. The
>>effective distance between the ship and the object is only 30,000 klicks.
>>The reflected pulse is now returning to the ship at 300,000 kps, the ship is
>>moving towards the pulse at 270,000 kps, and the distance each must cover is
>>only 30,000 klicks. At best the two will meet at 15,000 klicks from the
>>object at point B. The ship's computers and crew have .05 (5 hundreths) of a
>>second to react and dodge the object.

> The fundamental mistake you seem to be making is "effective speed 
> difference is only 30,000 kps".
 
   No fundamental mistake at all, actually.  Read on.

> Here is *the* basic observation from which all relativity follows: Speed 
> of light is constant _in all reference frames_. It is the same for all 
> observers. Effective speed difference between a radar pulse (which is 
> "light"/electromagnetic radiation) and *anything* is going to be c 
> (300,000 kps) *not* 30,000 kps.
 
   The speed of light is constant in all reference frames, which means
   that it is 300,000 kps in the planetary frame where Garry worked out
   his example, which means that it is only 30,000 kps faster than the
   ship in the planetary frame.  So Garry worked out the problem exactly
   right for the planetary frame, but then he said "crew have .05 of a
   second to react and dodge the object".  That would be true except
   that the ship's time is different from the planets' time.

   Let's work it out in the ship's frame.  The object is heading towards
   the ship at 0.9c.  When the object is distance 300,000 km away, it
   reflects a radar pulse.  One second later, the crew know of it's
   existence, and the object has closed to 30,000 km. The crew now have
   0.11 seconds to react to it.  Note that 300,000 km in the ship's
   frame is quite a bit farther than that in the planets' frame due to
   length contraction, but the advantage of that extra distance is lost
   because the crew's time is dialated by the same factor, giving them
   less time to react.  So where does the extra .051 seconds come from? 
   There is yet another rinkle in relativity: events separated in space
   that are simultaneous in one frame are not simultaneous in another
   frame.  In the planets' frame, the signal's reaching the ship and the
   object's being 15,000 km away are simultaneous events.  Not so in the
   ship's frame. There is a time offset in the Lorentz transformations
   that, in this case, favors the crew.

   So Einsteinian relativity says that three things: length, time, and
   simultaneity (all invariant under Galilean relativity) are different
   in different reference frames.

   Man, I love this stuff!

   None of this changes Garry's basic point though, that it is
   dangerous to drive faster than you can see. You'll need some pretty
   long-ranged sensors to travel at relativistic speeds through a
   cluttered space-lane.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 11:44:26 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: crime and punishment of smart guns

per writes:
>Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>> At 12:25 29/05/97 +0200, you wrote:
>>>Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>>>> Only the law-abiding. The criminals are already criminals, so what's a
few
>>> more years if you're caught?
>>>How about execution? 
>> The problem here being that presumably there'd be a similar penalty for
>> murder, so you just kill all the whitnesses as it won't make things any
>> worse than they already are.
>Ok, this is going a bit overboard here, but there are many different
>types of death sentences... Like "death by torture", "death by lethal
>injection"... I know that if I had a choice I'd prefer a painless death
>instead of a painful one. Now, I just hope I don't have to make that
>choice though.

  Can you really see the touchy-feely friendly governments of the happy
people planets having laws on the books for 'death by torture'?  Is
sentencing a perp to death by torture more ethical than the previous
example of the Battle Dress equiped LEO quicking squeezing their head to a
pulp?  

  This is all interesting data for planets with law levels measured in
letters though...



 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
"In 1991, [Vice President] Gore cited Bush's China policy as a reason he 
should be defeated for reelection, charging Bush sent his emissaries to 
toast the butchers of Tiananmen Square.'" -- Deborah Orin in the New York 
Post, March 26, 1997, the day after Gore drank champagne with Chinese 
Premier Li Peng, who helped plan the Tiananmen massacre
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 97 12:06:30 -0400
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: Swamp World!

del	2726	Kiisamguushiirg	E8A6A9C-0

>One is our familiar hellhole of a religious dictatorship Saazi, but
>Kiisamguushiirg (named for the sound you make, slipping below the surface
>of this water world?) is pretty much improbable. Stone age billions living
>in the water.

How about the entire planet is covered with water, but most of it is
only a few feet to 10 feet deep. (1-3 meters deep).  The planet would
be a giant swamp, with trees growing out of the water.  The natives
would live in the trees, and travel either through the tree canopy, or
in small boats.  

The planet could have been settled during the ROM, during the Long
Night, the polar ice caps melted flooding the planet.  The population
was forced to move to higher ground ie the trees.  


Someone suggested a THWAP contest, for coming up with solutions to
weird UPPs, but the problem with that is I can only use one of the
solutions, the rest are wasted. With THUDD, I can use all of the
designs.  I probably won't, but I can.  We could do something like pull
out a dozen or 2 dozen weird worlds, and people each detail one of the
worlds, and we pick the one that is the neatest.  Sure that won't
really make a fair contest, as some worlds would be more interesting
than others, but do we want a contest, or lots of world details?

ALso we  wouldn't want to limit this to just Year 0, lots of us still
play in 1120 or 1200. Those eras still have weird worlds.

Lewis Roberts
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Q:Why does an elephant have a trunk?
A:So that it has someplace to hide when it sees a mouse.        
 
lewis@chara.gsu.edu
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:10:54 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re:Smart Guns

> On Thu, 29 May 1997, Anders Backman wrote:
> 
> I agree its immoral, as the only people who would want such a weapon are
> criminaly inclined.  I have not heard of it since, hopefully it was
> quashed (?)

Spoken like a true Vilani! Hint: Technology cannot be quashed easily,
regardless of how many water powered engines with 100 mpg carburetors sit
moldering in GM's vaults. 

How about for special ops police or anti-terrorist forces getting into a
hostage situation 'unarmed'? How about sneaking them into resistance
forces in an oppressive regime? How about using them to shoot high powered
NMR operators who DROP the tubes containing 3/4ths of the metabolite
you've laboriously collected and purified over the last few months and you
cant use a regular gun because of the huge magnetic fields in the room?
(ok, ok, the last is VERY unlikely, but I really did want to shoot that
guy!) 

Most intel sevices would love to have a few of these around for those deep
covert ops. Of course, if you're of the mind that all intel services ARE
criminally inclined, well, maybe only crimninals would have a use for
them.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 11:01:24 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: FS/M0 Data

On Wed, 28 May 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> At 05:44 PM 5/28/97 -0400, Ethan wrote:
> 
> >ile 3209    Gimem . E7AA8DH-5   Wa      200     M3 V
> >
> >Uh, what's that 'H' at the end of the UWP??? A law level of 'H'??
> >(That is Law level, isn't it?)
> 
> Yup.  That's a law level alrighty! A mighty big one too!  Law 17, with a
> religious dictatorship, and an exotic atomosphere..
> 
> OK, the planet is run by an elite minority who control the ability to
> repair the TL9 life support systems.  This has become a religion over the
> years, with strict controls enforced during Twilight as Solomani support
> faded away and left the world stranded.  Every aspect of life is controled,
> from cradle to grave.  The Adims decide what you learn, who you make with,
> and what you do every day.  Rebellion is punished by being publically
> shoved out of the airlock into "hell."  
> 
> The religion focuses around the belief that they are in fact in purgatory,
> and will someday be redeemed.  When the PC's arrive, they will be seen as
> emissaries from God.  The Adims will *not* be pleased to find out otherwise..
> 
> That's just off the top of my head.

Cool.  

But you neglected to notice that this is a *water* world as well.  Do you
suppose the population is in underwater structures?  or perhaps floating
colonies of plant life? or large 'ships' (holding *hundreds of millions*)
or perhaps all three?

So there are three for four subcultures, from different contexts, each
with its religo-techno upper class (mechanical or environmental engineers,
technicians, etc) and scads of workers using internal combustion engines
and wood-fiber type construction (and steel, aluminum, low tech solid
state electronics, et al).  

The "floating island" people are growers of fibrous construction material,
live in enviromentally filtered and controlled houses on their travelling
islands, migrating from 'pilllar' to 'pillar' (see below) in a random way,
from climate to climate.  A very hardy, adaptable people, who are (unlike
the bubble people below) very independent and self-sufficient (they will
need metals from the 'ship people' below and the 'bubble people' though).

The "Bubble People are the most technically apt and use that skill to
maintain an underwater existence in certain shallow areas of the ocean
floor.  This is the largest segment of the population.  The bubbles are
TL9 manufacture with TL5 modifications and additions (anyone see 20,000
leagues under the Sea?).  Typically the bubble cities are built near iron
ore or bauxite deposits, or perhaps Uranium ores to power their "Magic
Power Plants" that will be needed to make such a large population
comfortable (if you can call that Law Level comfortable).  These people
trade with the other groups for unusual foodstuffs, wood-fiber like
material, and perhaps occassional "vacations" (but try to get a travel
permit!).  Their cities are clusters of domes surrounding a Pillar of
'advanced material of heavenly manufacture' (read composites or special
alloys) which allow access to the surface (for the priveliged few anyway).

The "Ship People" ride huge factory ships to specific destinations around
the globe, generally following good climates and going from city pillar to
city pillar trading between them adn among the "floating Island people"
(gotta come up with local dialect words for these folks).  smaller vessels
leave the factory ships to fish for the great Tractapod, a large bony sea
creature whose every body part provides a useful purpose; from the scales
that make great bowls and utensils, furniture and jewelry, to their
massive fatty bodies which can be processed into a huge variety of pseudo
- -petrolium type products (including fuel for the small craft used to track
it down), to their huge, light bones which provide the structure for the
traditional boats used to catch the beast, and the ragtag collection of
towering homes that cover the decks of all the factory ships, one atop
the other, until they risk falling over into the poison sea far below.

Sons and Daughters of the ship people, seeking to escape the crowded life
they were born to, have sometimes built their own "factory ships" of a
much smaller scale and different materials, only to find life extremely
difficult to maintain the required fuel level (they are using internal
combustion, after all, not nuclear) and harvest enough food with the
smaller population and less facilities to work with.  Some however have
persevered and are surviving, while not flourishing.

Well, that's enough for a start.  Fill in details as they occur.

Pete 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 11:11:42 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Extreme Law Levels

On Thu, 29 May 1997, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Any Takers?

Looks like I sent my submission before the contest started.

Count me in, I can do this better at work than  could the THUDD!

Pete 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 12:16:42 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: stealth guns

Michael Solomani Mifsud <solomani@electric-rain.net> writes
[snip about plastic firearms]
>I agree its immoral, as the only people who would want such a weapon are
>criminaly inclined.  I have not heard of it since, hopefully it was
>quashed (?)

Criminaly inclined or government employees...hmmm...is that being redunant?


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
"In 1991, [Vice President] Gore cited Bush's China policy as a reason he 
should be defeated for reelection, charging Bush sent his emissaries to 
toast the butchers of Tiananmen Square.'" -- Deborah Orin in the New York 
Post, March 26, 1997, the day after Gore drank champagne with Chinese 
Premier Li Peng, who helped plan the Tiananmen massacre
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 11:14:23 -0500
From: Alex Rebsch <grazzit@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Revision of the UWP Data: B Pop worlds

At 01:15 PM 5/30/97 +0200, you wrote:

>        A problem I already pointed at in FS, is still in the data file.

>

>	PROBLEM: These worlds

>

>cdr	3225	Shaniin .	C226BEE-9	Ind HiPop 	 	810	M1 V

>dag	2512	Irash.	B220BAD-C	Na Ind Po De HiPop 	 	500	K2 V

>del	0512	Khakakir.	A000BDD-9	Na Ind Ast HiPop Va  524   G2 V M4 D

>del	1213	Sabaagiirar.	B767BAC-A	HiPop 	 	802	K4 V M5 D M2 D

>lis	0626	Gishgi.	A300BBB-B	Na Ind HiPop Va 	 	100	K4 V

>lis	2333	Leim Ku .	B360BC9-B	De HiPop 	 	412	M9 D

>mas	0510	Shig .	B362BAB-8	HiPop 	 	404		G2 V

>

>	These worlds hold more population than ENTIRE SECTORS. Please notice the

>enormous scale of the effects that their inclusion in the Traveller universe

>would have. They hold an enormous fraction (I estimate roughly 1/3) of the

>population of the universe, and they are only 7 worlds! Such worlds would

>totally change the face of the universe. Statistically speaking, they are

>total outliers...

>	These worlds create curious situations: The population of Corridor is more

>than twice that of Vland. Well, it's not surprising, since there is a world

>with 800 thousand million inhabitants (800 billion for you in the US). The

>whole sector has just 1,113 thousand million.

>

>	SUGGESTED CHANGE:  Change the B Pop to A Pop in all 7 worlds.



What I don't understand is how can an Asteroid Belt support 800 Billion people? Or for that matter how could a small world? Because 4 of these worlds are small and one is an Ast. Can this be right?


Alex



E=Mail:	grazzit @flash.net


Home
Page:<underline><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>	http://www.flash.net/~grazzit/traveller.html</color></underline>

------------------------------

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, May 30 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1388



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Binary Stars
EMP and system susceptibility
smart guns
Re: Speed, Relativity & such (fwd)
Re: FS statistical impressions
Melody
Re: FS trade classifications
First Thoughts On Marc's FS Data
Re: Starport Distribution in FS-M0
Re: Revision of the UWP Data: B Pop worlds
Re: Jump Troops
Re: Yanks in space!
Re: Extreme Law Levels
Re: May THUDDD results (3rd try)
Re: FS-Data Starport Distribution
Hmmmm...Is the truth stranger...[long response]
Re: Binary Stars
Re: Revision of the UWP Data: B Pop worlds
Re: First Thoughts On Marc's FS Data
Re: THWAP?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 97 12:31:06 -0400
From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
Subject: Binary Stars

>>>In my last post (re: spectral distribution), I neglected to include the
>>>distribution of stars into single, binary, and trinary systems, so here we
>>>go.  Of the 4562 systems covered in the data, 2624 are single, 1821 are
>>>binary, and 117 are trinary.
>>
>>IIRC, there should be more binary and ternary systems that single, but I do
>>not have my references here.

>IMHO, if anything, there should be *fewer* binary & trinary systems. I 
>recall reading somewhere that current theories on stellar system 
<formation favour solitary systems.

Yes, Theory does say somethiing like that, (at least some theories) but
its wrong.   Stars which have recently become stars have a very high
percentage of multiple systems, some papers suggesting as much as 100%.
 As stars age, they get stripped of their companions, the exact process
is still undetermined.  Looking at the total population of stars, the
percentage is about 40-50% of stars are multiple, the rest are single.  


Lewis Roberts
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Q:Why does an elephant have a trunk?
A:So that it has someplace to hide when it sees a mouse.        
 
lewis@chara.gsu.edu
http://www.chara.gsu.edu/~lewis/roberts.html
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 12:33:27 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: EMP and system susceptibility

Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com> writes:
>Perusing the Information Warfare site (http://www.infowar.com/), I
>found a paper detailing how to build/modify computers and computer
>facilities which could resist EMP attacks.

 Wasn't this one of the features of the CT fib computers?
Optical based computers are, by design, better suited to handle EMP.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
"In 1991, [Vice President] Gore cited Bush's China policy as a reason he 
should be defeated for reelection, charging Bush sent his emissaries to 
toast the butchers of Tiananmen Square.'" -- Deborah Orin in the New York 
Post, March 26, 1997, the day after Gore drank champagne with Chinese 
Premier Li Peng, who helped plan the Tiananmen massacre
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 12:29:44 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: smart guns

Michael Solomani Mifsud wrote:
>> These discussions about safety devices to minimize accidental shootings
>> could very well be of real importance on a planet very unlike the current
>> US. Traveller is NOT yanks in space, at least not in my campaign.
>Here! Here! Australia would be around the same range, maybe even an 8.
>Most weapons related crimes the criminal uses a knife or sheer brute
>force.  A lot of gun related crimes are nearly always organised crime. 

  Going back to the original topic, LEO's would perfer the weapon first 
put forth.  One that would only fire in the hands of the authorized user.
The 'safety' device would be a ring or hand implant.  The second type
suggested, one that will not fire at those with a proper signalling device,
is too open to abuse by the professional criminal class.

  Quick law level related question, if gun related crimes in Australia are
nearly always related to organised crime, why is the government collecting
nearly all the firearms in civilian hands and turning them in to scrap iron?

  Getting back to safety devices.  Some of the good ideas I've seen posted
before include,

1.  'self-defense' firearms that sprays the user's hand with a dye when
fired.  Take a step further and make the dye chemically tracable.

2.  firearms that have a small radio transmitter, which will put out a
warning signal, and a maintain a carrier wave, to police when fired.

3.  Firearms with built in Microcams that photograph whatever it's aimed at
when fired.  When the microcam is out of film, the weapon will not fire.
Film reloading available only at your friendly local police station.

Campaign note:  I had a player get miffed at me when I told him that, yes,
the planet's law level allowed the carrying of handguns, but the local
police  would not be allow him to carry his TL13, burst fire capable, gauss
pistol on a TL 7 planet.  Geez, I even provided a range of TL 7 handguns
available for purchase...


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
"In 1991, [Vice President] Gore cited Bush's China policy as a reason he 
should be defeated for reelection, charging Bush sent his emissaries to 
toast the butchers of Tiananmen Square.'" -- Deborah Orin in the New York 
Post, March 26, 1997, the day after Gore drank champagne with Chinese 
Premier Li Peng, who helped plan the Tiananmen massacre
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:45:04 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Speed, Relativity & such (fwd)

At 12:46 AM 5/30/97 +0000, Garry Ward wrote:
>At 05:14 AM 5/29/97 +0000, Jim Choate wrote:
>>
>><snip my orginal message>
>>
>>Actualy no. Remember that as you approach the speed of light the 'size' of
>>the universe approaches zero. Visualy what you would see would be the
>>horizon move from directly in front of you to a ring centered axialy around
>>your velocity vector. In effect the beam can't out run you because the
>>universe has effectively shrunk down to miniscule proportions.
>>
>>Consider, a photon from it's own perspective is everywhere in the universe
>>at the same time.

>The universe has shrunk? Or your ability to perceive the universe has shrunk?
>
>This is where I get shaky in relativity; is it the objective universe that
>changes, or the moving person's perception of or ability to perceive the
>universe? 

It really does not matter, save in an existential way.  I recommend
"Spacetime Physics" as the best introduction to special relativity out
there, if you want the details, but the broad answer is:

In an inertial reference frame (Anything moving unaccelerated in a straight
line), you will always measure light moving at c.  As a result of that one
fact, you will think that anyone moving with respect to you is having their
lengths in the direction of travel contracted, and their time slowed.  From
their perspective, they will think the same of you, and any technique you
use to synchronize clocks that produces consistent results will include a
way of taking this into account.

SR says nothing about what is really happening, only that any measurement
you make or perception you have will give results as if "the other guy" has
slower clocks.  It says the same to him.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:54:44 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: FS statistical impressions

At 01:25 PM 5/30/97 +1200, R. Boleyn wrote:
>At 17:09 29/05/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>C    36  17  28  37  15  30  21  21  16   7  24  1  253
>>D     8   9   3   5   8   6   7   7   7   4  14  0  78
>>E     1   0   0   3   2   0   2   3   2   0   0  0  13
>>Total
>>   1296  554 590 610 525 528 402 344 228 139 166 7  5389

>I know this has been said before, but: REALITY SHIFT! WARNING! WARNING!

Yes, and I loathe it!

I also expunged every TL16 and 17 world from the dGP data in my last game,
save for a few worlds that had just reached it or where it was a relic, as
I had information saying the Imperium had not achieved TL 16 at the end of
the FFW.

>In the MT Referee's Companion it says that the Second Imperium achieved TL
>12 in -2210. It also says that the Third Imperium made TL 12 in -150, TL 13
>in 300 and TL 14 in 700. The book says 'achieved', not 'had an average TL'
>or 'this TL was common'. To me this implies that to all intents and
>purposes these TLs weren't availible until the listed dates. 

Yes!  Canon violation! Canon Violation!  Froth!  FROTH!!!

Sorry.  I do not like this particular data problem.

>Does IG want us to belive that the 1st or 2nd Imperium had worlds with a TL
>that the 3rd Imperium took 700 years to reach?

I am willing to have a relic world that is at TL>12, as long as the 3rdI
never made them a member, and the Vilani never really found out about them.

I am planning on putting a TL>>12 world out there that is the El Dorado of
the 3rdI, but there will be only one, and nobody is going to know where it is.

...
>Not only that with 18 high Hi pop worlds at TL 13, I don't see how the
>Syleans stayed at the centre of things. After all this means that 6% of the
>Hi pop worlds are of a higher TL than the Imperium.

This has been a long running complaint.  I was even unhappy with Shudusham,
a TL12 world with 70 billion industrialized people.  They would NEVER be
subservient to Sylea, as they could dust the Syleans in any kind of conflict.

I solved this by ruling that Shudushamese had TL<9 starship tech, and could
never quite figure out jump drive.  They were major drivers for Empire, as
they wanted Sylean colony ships to bleed off their population.  I am just
going to de-tech all 91 of the worlds with >TL12, save for a few carefully
selected plot macguffins.

>BTW Is the pop level 'B' correct? If so where did it first turn up?

It better have a multiplier of 1.

>IMO T4 is like TNE in feel, even if the relics are limited to TL 12- and
>I'm not too sure why some people who didn't like TNE's feel seem to like
>that of T4 - I mean they're both about reconstruction.

This is one of my complaints, actually.  I viewed M0 as a new wave of
colonization into a mostly empty universe with lost of old, old, old ruins.
 The current data makes it seem like a low tech TNE.  TNE can be fun, but
reconstruction is not as interesting to me as expansion.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:10:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: pierre-louis constantin <Pierre-Louis.Constantin@DMI.USherb.CA>
Subject: Melody

 
	I admit I was shocked for about 30 seconds when I picked up
the phone and heard "Hi!  This is Melody calling about
Traveller..."... :)
 
	They must really want the money if they call all the way up
here. :)  Either that or ms. Melody just enjoys chatting with
Traveller fans. :)
 
Joke heard during the Rule of Man:
Solomani: knock knock!
Vilani: Who's there?
Solomani: Meson
Vilani: Meson who?
solomani: Meson guns, ZAP! ZAP!
 
Ok, I need sleep I think. :)


- -- 
Pierre-Louis Constantin, ift. a. 	"He whose name was writ in E-mail."
(: "I hate fanatics with a passion; all extremists should be shot." :)
	    How's my surfing? http://www.dmi.usherb.ca/~constanp/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:17:03 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: FS trade classifications

At 01:00 PM 5/30/97 MET, Volker wrote:
>-> May I put in a bid for the return to 2 letter classification as well
>-> please!
>Seconded! 

Thirded

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:04:48 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: First Thoughts On Marc's FS Data

>Alex

>What about adding a trade classification like "R4" where the R stands for
>ruined civilization and the number stands for the Techlevel of the ruined
>civilization. Any comments on this idea?

I like the idea of putting it in the comments, or putting it as a trade
code.  Please, for those of us writing data parsers, do not fiddle with the
UWP.

Speaking of which, I am now at Beta 0.9, which works on Mac and PC, and
generates Postscript (viewable with Ghostscript).  The people who responded
to me before with a machine type and a beta test request should see an
executable sometime in the next week, assuming I find no major problems,
and get a chance to write some preliminary docs.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:09:41 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Starport Distribution in FS-M0

At 04:36 PM 5/30/97 +1000, you wrote:
>...I still feel what I originally wrote holds. ie: very few class A
>starports in M0. Anyone agree? Disagree? Care? =)

Care, and agree.  If it is true that class B ports can build ships, then
there should be darn few As, some Bs, C's wherever there is active trade,
and lost of Ds and Es.  Essentailly, every pocket empire of > 10 worlds
will want an A, and might have started considering putting in a backup B
port somewhere, while few independent worlds will have considered an A.

This, of course, changes dramatically if class A ports are once again the
only places for shipbuilding.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:14:42 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Revision of the UWP Data: B Pop worlds

At 01:15 PM 5/30/97 +0200, Carlos wrote:
...
>These worlds create curious situations: The population of Corridor is more
>than twice that of Vland. Well, it's not surprising, since there is a world
>with 800 thousand million inhabitants (800 billion for you in the US). The
>whole sector has just 1,113 thousand million.
>	SUGGESTED CHANGE:  Change the B Pop to A Pop in all 7 worlds.

STRONGLY agree.  Also, any world with tens of billions of people (pop A)
should be carefully looked at if the pop multiplier is other than 1.  I can
accept 30 billion on Sylea, and other important worlds, but I want every
world with more than 10 billion people to be planned, not accidental.  Much
like all TL 12 worlds should be at least looked over.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:05:03 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Troops

At 01:32 PM 5/30/97 MET, Volker wrote:

>Has anybody already mentioned the description of Drop Tactics and 
>covert drop operations in MTJ 3 by DGP? 

I still run that at Cons from time to time.. it is a great scernario.


- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
|  Creative Planetologist, THUDDer, 20 year vet  |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
|  "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|  about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|  Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|   -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin"  |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:21:54 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Yanks in space!

At 10:18 PM 5/30/97 +1200, you wrote:
>At 10:54 30/05/97 +0100, Anders Backman wrote:
>>I'm not arguing that Traveller should be swedish, just that US culture
>>should not be taken as the normal case as it is so way off the average case
>>here on earth.
>>
>By that measure we should be playing 'Indo-Chinese in Space' :)

Not to sound to jingoistic, or trying to start a flame war, but I haven't
noticed any Swedish flags on the Moon, and the only man-made object to
leave the solar system has a US flag decal stuck on it.
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
|  Creative Planetologist, THUDDer, 20 year vet  |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
|  "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|  about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|  Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|   -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin"  |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:29:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brett Fishburne <bfish@atlantech.net>
Subject: Re: Extreme Law Levels

I'm interested!

At 05:18 PM 5/29/97 -0700, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>At 11:03 AM 5/29/97 -0700, Bruce had an apostrophe:
>
>>Hey!  I have an idea! lets put on a Show! errr contest. A near C doggie
>>bisquit to the winners, a la' THUDD, but we'll pick worlds out of FS or
>>Corrected FS with some of these weird numbers and develop library data for
>>'em. Detailed stuff like, exactly what IS the basis of this religion and
>>what DO they do to the inhabitants that's so opressive, and Why would
>>anyone in their right mind ever want to visit?
>>
>>We can call it  the TML Huge World Assignment Program, or THWAP for short
>>;-) (All right, so I thought up the acronym first!) 
>>
>>Any Takers?
>
>Count me in!
>--
>+------------------------------------------------+
>|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
>|  Creative Planetologist, THUDDer, 20 year vet  |
>|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
>|************************************************|
>|  "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
>|  about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
>|  Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
>|   -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin"  |
>+------------------------------------------------+
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:09:44 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: May THUDDD results (3rd try)

At 07:45 AM 5/29/97 -0700, Criag opened the envelope:

>Our overall THUDDD 4 winner is...
>
>  Terrapin Exploratory Merchant Cruiser (SSDS/FFS)
>  Gridlore Technologies, Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>

As the celebratory water-baloon fight breaks out on board the MV Pide of
Cucamonga...

>...continuing the Berry family dynasty established in April's THUDDD 3
>competition.  Will June break the relentless Berry stranglehold on the
>THUDDD?

Not if I have anything to say about it!  ;)

- --

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
|   "Wide unclasp the tables of their thoughts    |
|  These same thoughts people this little World"  |
|      - inscription on a stained glass window,   |
|        found in the Winchester Mystery House.   |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:21:55 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: FS-Data Starport Distribution

At 01:04 PM 5/30/97 MET, Volker wrote:
>-> Scott
>-> I kind of like 5/10/20/20/40, but then, I feel that about half the worlds
>-> out there are either barren, or are in the very early stages of
>-> colonization.  From an earlier post, I claimed that roughly 10 percent of
>-> all worlds were high ppulation worlds, which covered the class A and B
>-> places fairly well.  (Note that 1/12th of all worlds should be high pop.)

>I like this proportions, however i don't agree with you barren point: 
>We don't have a tzerrible war that destroyed everything behind us in 
>M:0 like we had in TNE. Instead, it was rather a cessation of 
>interstellar commerce and traffic that brought the ROM down. Thusly 
>the effects on the population shouldn't have been as harsh for the 
>worlds! 

I am open to discussion, but I had the strong impression that the Empire
expanded very rapidly, which implied to me a lot of worlds ripe for the
taking.   

I think the effects on population in RoM would actually be more pronounced
than in TNE, just not as catastrophic.  If you knew that no more radio
parts were going to show up, you might be very tempted to "move back" to
the higher pop worlds.  I also expect a tremendous number of spacelifts
would have taken place near the end, as humanitarian types moved the
colonies that were going to fail off to other worlds.

While this happened at the end of the 3I, it was under war pressure.  I
expect that it went a bit better in peacetime.  (According to my data on
the Great Depression, once people are out of work, they become more mobile
in hopes of getting some work.  It does require cheap transport, but I
imagine that any world of less than 50K people could have been easily
depopulated by choice if a large megacorp wanted to.)

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 12:21:51 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Hmmmm...Is the truth stranger...[long response]

On Thu, 29 May 1997, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Or is it still fiction?
> 
> >From an editorial in this morning's paper:
> 
> "Walter Truett Anderson:
>         New energy forms are well
>         within our reach
[snip]

Relevant to Traveller?!? of course, but not exactly in a direct way.  Skip
if you're not interested in so-called Cold Fusion.  

Since I am employed by a "Hot" Fusion laboratory, I looked into the "Cold"
fusion research (of which the Palladium reactions are a
spinoff/subset/superset) with a fearful eye.  I am skeptical but open to
the possibility of a real discovery being made.

My skepticism will end when Boston Edison builds a 300MW power plant which
uses Palladium and Water as its consumables.

I asked one of the scientists here about the cold fusion reactions and one
of his comments was "if it were a nuclear reaction they'd be dead"
referring to the theoretical need for Neutron Radiation emissions for a
Fusion reaction to occur.  

- --sidebar--
Of course his future, like mine, is somewhat
dependent on the Hot Fusion program continuing.  He is also, however a
scientist and a Tenured Faculy at MIT and he will 1). continue to receive
the same salary no matter what happens and 2). has, I believe a good
healthy amount of "scientific objectivity".  For myself, I am not worried
about being employed per se, there's plenty of grant management positions
around, but I'd like to see the program continue anyway,and many of my
friends would be in tough positions.  
- --end sidebar--

If it is not a fusion reaction, then the most likely explanation is that
it is a chemical reaction.  Now, my basic physics class in high school
told me that you must store energy in order to release energy.  If what is
being done is basically a release of stored (chemically) energy then this
process is not much more exciting than when they found out one could burn
gasoline to make an engine run (which was pretty exciting in its day mind 
you). Eventually there will be a shortage or absence of one of the stored
energy chemicals that powers the reaction and we'll be back to looking
for a new power source.  Of course if that energy is stored in Water, we
have a lot of time to find an alternative.

Here's the problem I have if the reaction is simply the "cracking" of
water, though.  We know energy must be conserved.  If we know water can be
cracked into Hydrogen and Oxygen and that combining the two back together
requires no energy input (in fact it releases energy), then energy must be
input in order to crack them apart.   

Somewhere in there the Palladium and Nickel get involved; They are
supposed to be catalysts.  I do not know how much of these materials are
available or what needs to be done with or to them; I know that some
experiments involve Palladium in a latticework structure.  If these
materials are consumed in the process (or altered such that they are no
longer usable for the purpose) then it is these materials that are
liberating their energy chemically (which is OK, someday we'll figure out
how to get at the immense reserves of nickel at the earth's core).  If
not, then...it must be Magic!!!! That's it, they found the secret of the
Philosopher's stone!

The possibility must be faced that this is neither a nuclear nor a
chemical reaction.  In this case the basics of physics as we know them are
incomplete or false and all bets are off.

Well, theres plenty of Web sites on the subject, but having examined the
issue my advice is to sit back and watch for a couple more years.  If
there's something there it will be in production by then.  If not, then
the momentum of the movement will not last much more than that.

In the end though watch out for the hype - it occludes the real issues.

Pete

Peter Brenton
Not speaking for MIT or the Plasma Science and Fusion Center where he just
works sometimes.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:46:20 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Binary Stars

At 12:31 PM 5/30/97 -0400, Lewis wrote:
>
>>>IIRC, there should be more binary and ternary systems that single, but I do
>>>not have my references here.
>
>>IMHO, if anything, there should be *fewer* binary & trinary systems. I 
>>recall reading somewhere that current theories on stellar system 
><formation favour solitary systems.
>
>Yes, Theory does say somethiing like that, (at least some theories) but
>its wrong.   Stars which have recently become stars have a very high
>percentage of multiple systems, some papers suggesting as much as 100%.
> As stars age, they get stripped of their companions, the exact process
>is still undetermined.  Looking at the total population of stars, the
>percentage is about 40-50% of stars are multiple, the rest are single.  

Ah.  I stand corrected.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:43:50 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Revision of the UWP Data: B Pop worlds

At 11:14 AM 5/30/97 -0500, grazzit wrote:

<excerpt>What I don't understand is how can an Asteroid Belt support 800
Billion people? Or for that matter how could a small world? Because 4 of
these worlds are small and one is an Ast. Can this be right?

</excerpt><<<<<<<<

It can, but it usually wont be.  Consider, if you take an asteroid that
is just 10km by 10km by 10km.  With levels 5m. apart, you end up with
2000 levels, or 200,000 square km.  Earth is only 5.5e8 km^2, by my
memory, so you only need about 2500 of these to have a place sufficient
to house earth's population at present densities, and you can pack people
a lot more densely if you have the energy.


Further, these 2500 worldlets only use 2.5e6 km^3 of rock, while earth
consists of 1e12 km^3 of rock.  In other words, earth cut into 10km cubes
would hold about 400,000 times the stuff as earth, the big ball.  You
could put a trillion people into this form with a thousand times the
elbow room we have today.  If a world reached high tech without jump
drive, it might be a good way of holding the maximum population possible.
 At some point, of course, you need to consider whether it is space or
power that is the limiting factor.


Scott

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz

"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 

results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))

"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:54:08 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: First Thoughts On Marc's FS Data

On Fri, 30 May 1997, Volker A. Greimann wrote:

> -> I agree that the LL and Gov should be zero for an unpopulated world. I do
> -> not agree that the TL should be, unless we consider it to relate to the
> -> sustainable technology of the culture present.
> But don't forget that Pop 0 doesn't mean unpopulated! 
> Pop 0 only means 0-9 inhabitants!
>  

Damn I like having this thing on line to search!

There are NO worlds in the data set that have a UWP pop of 0 that don't
also have a pop multiplier of 0 as well. So ALL pop 0 worlds are truly
deserted...

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:09:22 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: THWAP?

On Thu, 29 May 1997, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:

> 	Love the sound of that acronym :).  THUDDD, THWAP, and... what's
> the next competition going to be?  ZOT?  BAM?  Holy Crokinole, Batman?

I imagined "THWAP" to be the sound of a .1C rock hitting a
planet...[ducks]

> 	Can I do this one for the THWAP?  Please?  Pretty please?

Will the contest be to come up with multiple interpretations of the same
UPP data?  or each getting a set of UPP data and doing some expanded world
generation with it?  The THUDD is nice since I *can* use four or five
300-600 ton patrol cruisers, but I cannot use 5-6 planet descriptions with
identical UPPs, only one. 

> 	Of course, we'd need a standardized format.  Are there any out there?

Well, the Grand Census/Grand Survey format, the World Builders Handbook
format, the basic UPP with description, Scouts (book 6(?)) has a format.

I vote for WBH myself.  the expanded tech levels and cultural details
(identical or similar to GS/GS anyway) are quire useful.  Question is can
we reproduce it somewhere for general reference?

We can also come up with our own similar format, perhaps a relatively
loose one.
The other possible aspect of this is to make everything compatible with
Merrick's Galactic program so they can be "dropped in" without a problem.

Pete    

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1388
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, May 30 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1389



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Swamp World
Re: Swamp World!
"B"
Re: Extreme Law Levels
Re: FS statistical impressions
Swamp World and UWP bugs
UK Traveller products
Re: Extreme Law Levels
UK Traveller products
Re: Barren Worlds (was Re: First Thoughts on Marc's FS Data) (LONG)
Re: FS statistical impressions
Re: Swamp World and UWP bugs
M0/FS Revised data
Re: Re: casualties
Statistical impressions II
Re: PE and JTAS 26
Statistical Impressions II pt.2
Re: Speed, Relativity & such
Re: First Thoughts On Marc's FS Data
Re: M:0/FS Sector data
Re: Re: First Thoughts On Marc's FS Data
Re: First Thoughts On Marc's FS Data
Re: Speed, Relativity & such

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 14:10:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ethan Henry <ehenry@mag1.magmacom.com>
Subject: Re: Swamp World

>From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
>Subject: Swamp World!
>
>del     2726    Kiisamguushiirg E8A6A9C-0
>
>>One is our familiar hellhole of a religious dictatorship Saazi, but
>>Kiisamguushiirg (named for the sound you make, slipping below the surface
>>of this water world?) is pretty much improbable. Stone age billions living
>>in the water.
>
>How about the entire planet is covered with water, but most of it is
>only a few feet to 10 feet deep. (1-3 meters deep).  The planet would
>be a giant swamp, with trees growing out of the water.  The natives
>would live in the trees, and travel either through the tree canopy, or
>in small boats.  

Yeah, and they'd be 2-foot tall hairy guys with names like "Wicket"...

The trouble is, any planets that could be covered by a uniform
3 to 10 feet of water would be smoother than a billiard ball.
While it's tempting, I think we should leave the "desert planets",
"forest moons" and "ice worlds" to Star Wars players.

Now, you could do a planets where the major continent is really,
really swampy though... kinda like expanding Louisana up to around
Michigan-ways. :) The rockies and foothills would still be
pretty dry, but you'd have more than enough swamp to start a 
civilization in, especially if you put some big nasty critters
on the dry land.

A more likely explanation for the world is that it's settled by 
colonists heavily modified by the RoM agency 'GenAssist' - they're
Merpeople. They live primarily underwater, but can come out for
short periods of time. The Terran ecology imported to the planet
(salmon, cod, tuna) has almost totally displaced the local sea
fauna, making the tribal, nomadic existance of the underwater dwellers
fairly easy.

The type 'E' starport is simply a ferrocrete pad and a landing beacon,
still functioning centuries after the few nearby building have been
destroyed by the occasional fierce storm. Presumably some nearby 
system that still has old RoM Naval records would have information
about this world.

Ethan

- -- 
ehenry@magma.ca                                  http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 11:33:16 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Swamp World!

On Fri, 30 May 1997, Lewis Roberts wrote:
> 
> Someone suggested a THWAP contest, for coming up with solutions to
> weird UPPs, but the problem with that is I can only use one of the
> solutions, the rest are wasted. With THUDD, I can use all of the
> designs.  I probably won't, but I can.  We could do something like pull
> out a dozen or 2 dozen weird worlds, and people each detail one of the
> worlds, and we pick the one that is the neatest.  Sure that won't
> really make a fair contest, as some worlds would be more interesting
> than others, but do we want a contest, or lots of world details?
> 
> ALso we  wouldn't want to limit this to just Year 0, lots of us still
> play in 1120 or 1200. Those eras still have weird worlds.


Sure..I never said that the THWAP competition had to be a clone of the
THUDD (they're produced by an entirely different set of animators at the
Batman studios ;-)

What you're suggesting is eminently reasonable, and it's beginning to look
like people are actually interested in this enterprise, so I'll try and
figure out some rules...

Howsabout I extract a list of worlds with 'weird' UWP's from the FS Data,
post it, and entrants can then choose one and write it up?

Next silly question, what do we mean by 'Weird'?

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 14:36:53 -0400
From: Thomas Walter Trelenberg <tomt@scri.fsu.edu>
Subject: "B"

>- ->             5   "B" Whatever this is?
>Dunno!


"B" in a planetary profile used to mean "both"...both a naval base and a
scout base exist.

TT

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:59:59 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Extreme Law Levels

Quoth Bruce Johnson:
> We can call it  the TML Huge World Assignment Program, or THWAP for short
> ;-) (All right, so I thought up the acronym first!) 

I'm game.  Go for it!  But... does everyone do the same world, a la THUDDD
working on the same "concept"?  Otherwise, depending on participation, you
may start running out of the real oddball planets very quickly....

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 14:09:00 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: FS statistical impressions

Quoth Bruce Johnson:
> del	2726	Kiisamguushiirg	E8A6A9C-0
> 
> Kiisamguushiirg (named for the sound you make, slipping below the surface
> of this water world?) is pretty much improbable. Stone age billions living
> in the water.

Someone else may have pointed this out: it's not a waterworld, but an
exotic atmosphere.  I _do_ find the prospect of a TL0 impersonal
bureaucracy a bit odd, though.  This most probably is the homeworld of an
alien minor race, with weird biology/culture leading directly to such a
rigid culture (of hunter-gatherers wielding worldwide control over tens of
billions?  Somebody write these guys up!)

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 15:26:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Swamp World and UWP bugs

   Hi.

> Date: Fri, 30 May 97 12:06:30 -0400
> From: Lewis Roberts <lewis@chara.gsu.edu>
 
> del	2726	Kiisamguushiirg	E8A6A9C-0
 
>>One is our familiar hellhole of a religious dictatorship Saazi, but
>>Kiisamguushiirg (named for the sound you make, slipping below the surface
>>of this water world?) is pretty much improbable. Stone age billions living
>>in the water.
 
> How about the entire planet is covered with water, but most of it is
> only a few feet to 10 feet deep. (1-3 meters deep).  The planet would
> be a giant swamp, with trees growing out of the water.  The natives
> would live in the trees, and travel either through the tree canopy, or
> in small boats.  
 
   I don't mean to dry up your parade (as cool as a swamp world is), but
   I read the hydrographic percentage from "E8A6A9C-0" as being 60%, not
   100%.

   What I don't understand is how you can roll up a TL of zero when a
   pop of A gives you +4 on the TL roll, and atmosphere A gives you
   another +1.  Since the lowest number you can roll on 1 die is "1",
   then the TL must be at least 6, and at most 11.  If that E starport
   is really an X, then the minimum is still 2.  Sounds like the
   generating program is buggy, or not following the rules.

   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 19:39:35 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: UK Traveller products

For you UK TMLrs: I saw Pocket Empires and the screen and Emperor's Arsenal
today in the local Virgin. Didn't buy as I've already ordered them by mail,
but the Pocket Empires cover looked good, and there was blurb. (NB when I
ordered PE today Leisure Games in London said they had some copies at a
reduced price - 12.95 UKP - due to scuffing on the covers. Might be worth
following up).

The Babylon Project's UK printing by Titan is out as well. Looks glossy,
well written and packed with background. It doesn't have the kind of design
rules Traveller has, being much more space opera.

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Feel the guilt / like shackles round your feet / like a halo in reverse"
                     Depeche Mode "Violator"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 13:03:29 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Extreme Law Levels

On Fri, 30 May 1997, Joseph Chepe Lockett wrote:
> 
> I'm game.  Go for it!  But... does everyone do the same world, a la THUDDD
> working on the same "concept"?  Otherwise, depending on participation, you
> may start running out of the real oddball planets very quickly....

Well, if we run out, then we have lots of cool worlds developed, and we
can start in on the merely eccentric ones...!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 19:39:35 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: UK Traveller products

For you UK TMLrs: I saw Pocket Empires and the screen and Emperor's Arsenal
today in the local Virgin. Didn't buy as I've already ordered them by mail,
but the Pocket Empires cover looked good, and there was blurb. (NB when I
ordered PE today Leisure Games in London said they had some copies at a
reduced price - 12.95 UKP - due to scuffing on the covers. Might be worth
following up).

The Babylon Project's UK printing by Titan is out as well. Looks glossy,
well written and packed with background. It doesn't have the kind of design
rules Traveller has, being much more space opera.

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Feel the guilt / like shackles round your feet / like a halo in reverse"
                     Depeche Mode "Violator"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 15:11:01 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Barren Worlds (was Re: First Thoughts on Marc's FS Data) (LONG)

Forgive me, Marc, if I forward this response back to the list.  I thought
if might have some material or suggestions others would find interesting.

Quoth FarFuture@aol.com:
> Does 000-0 imply that there isn't anything there? That people lived there
> for thousands of years, often under trying conditions, to colonize and settle
> a world, and now after they have been gone for between 10 and 1,776 years,
> there is no sign of them?
> 
> What other mechanism conveys this information? Or what mechanism is required
> to convey this information?

Before the data listings even begin, you'll obviously have a short
introductory section, explaining the format, how it's divided up, etc.
etc.  Include in there an explanation something like the following:

"Remember, as you detail worlds for your own campaign, that this area of
space has been settled and governed, through First and Second Imperia and
the Long Night, for at least 4,000 years now.  Almost no world has
remained untouched.  So if you find an Earth-like garden world with zero
population, consider: what happened to the inhabitants?  Was it a fast
demise (war, disease or natural disaster, societal collapse), or a slower
fading away (inbreeding, loss of technological knowledge and resources, or
the simple inability to exist without outside trade and support) that
caused a world's entire population to perish?  What relics or records
remain to show their history and fate?  The far-ranging scouts of the
Third Imperium do not often find pristine planets awaiting a first human
footprint -- far more often, they are confronted with the sad evidence of
the Long Night's cost in knowledge, culture, and lives."

Perhaps an additional paragraph (here, using my example from my previous
post), pointing out the phenomenon doesn't only apply to Earthlike empty
planets: 

"Earthlike worlds were not the only ones settled: the Ziru Sirka and Rule
of Man placed colonies on many a more hostile planet, and far more of
those have failed or regressed to bizarre cultural forms during the
interregnum than those on their more clement neighbors.  Sylean
ethnologists are still studying the so-called 'Lays of Lampigas' (Antares
0103).  The Vilani miners in that asteroid belt survived nearly a
millenium of Long Night without outside trade or assistance, steadily
moving to simpler and simpler technology as their population and resources
dwindled, first abandoning artificial gravity, then surviving in thinner
and thinner atmospheres, and all the while composing the song-cycles now
being compared to the Terran Eddas, or the Vilani Song of Giishkimba.  By
- -25 they were surviving at a rough tech level of 5, when a random asteroid
collision broke the pressure seals on their last remaining colony cavern.
Lampigas died, scant decades before Sylean scouts would reach them."

Oops.  What a downer.  Maybe another "color" paragraph describing the
wonders that recontact has worked for another world closer to home.

Probably you'd want another few sentances pointing out or confirming that
_current_ tech level doesn't mean what the inhabitants invented from the
Stone Age up, but that the vast majority of the worlds are regressed
colonies, getting by with what they could do on their own, at a far
reduced level of technological achievement than that of 1700 years ago. 
They're the lucky ones, who didn't suffer the multitude of fates on the
"000-0" worlds.

A thought for Scout lingo/slang, suitable perhaps for a sidebar:

"CIPHER (SIGH-fer): Scout slang for a world with zeroes in the last four
digits of its UWP (population, government, law and tech levels).  Note
that the term is not 'zero,' or 'null,' implying that these worlds are
inconsequential or worthless.  The older term for the zero digit carries
the implication of a code or mystery, for few of these worlds have been
empty forever.  A scout sociologist's work is devoted to discovering why
these often pleasant worlds failed as much as it is to recording how
others survived." 

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 22:06:41 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: FS statistical impressions

R Boleyn wrote:

>IMO T4 is like TNE in feel, even if the relics are limited to TL 12- and
>I'm not too sure why some people who didn't like TNE's feel seem to like
>that of T4 - I mean they're both about reconstruction.

I suspect the objection is to the nature of the destruction of the 3I. FWIW
I personally would have prefered a gradual collapse as outlined in 'hard
times', followed by a slow recovery (along with the execution of Lucan, a
strong telling off for Dulinor, and the restoration of Strephon).


That bit in parentheses wasn't exactly serious.


- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Feel the guilt / like shackles round your feet / like a halo in reverse"
                     Depeche Mode "Violator"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 15:28:12 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Swamp World and UWP bugs

On Fri, 30 May 1997, Robert Flammang wrote:
  
>    I don't mean to dry up your parade (as cool as a swamp world is), but
>    I read the hydrographic percentage from "E8A6A9C-0" as being 60%, not
>    100%.
 

My fault, I was the one who swapped the ATM and HYD values when I looked
at it, being more concerned with the joke on the name, perhaps...

Your other point about World generation factors...don't the rules apply
only to the 'Steady State' Imperium of 1100? (had I my bookshelf here I
could confirm that) Marc, IIRC, mentioned that he used some variant of the
Collapse rules from TNE to generate the FS data. In that case the world
generation rules are the wrong ones to apply here.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 97 16:59:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: M0/FS Revised data

  I just sent Marc a thousand-plus line post with specific
  problem worlds that I found.  To summarize:

  There are quite a number of worlds that have absolutely zero
  population (pop digit 0, pop mul digit 0) and non-zero TLs and
  non-E starports.

  There are quite a number of worlds with atmospheres ranging
  from VeryThin to None, and worlds of Exotic, Corrosive, or
  Insidious atmospheres which I felt had too low a tech to be
  supporting unmodified humans - I selected a TL of 8 as the
  cutoff - a TL7 can't do it, IMO, more because of unreliability
  and instability than because of absolute incapability - there
  _were_ submarines used during the American Revolution, after
  all.

  There are a few worlds that have TLs above the theoretical
  maximum of C(12).  Most of them are D(13), but a few are
  E(14).

  I'm not particularly happy with some of the names that have
  been generated; I can't see anyone transcribing a word into
  the Anglic alphabet and coming up with a string of four
  consecutive "u"s, no matter what sort of transcription rules
  are being used.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  Shh! Be vewy qwiet!  I'm hunting wuntime ewwows.

------------------------------

Date: 30 May 1997 22:56:53 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Re: casualties

>Exactly so. The quote someone offered with regards to infantry charges, with
>the Sarge heading over the wall yelling "Follow me!" and the troops saying
>"Have fun, sir!" comes to mind....

Uh, you don't call NCOs "sir".  They _work_ for a living, and are proud of
the fact :-)


Which reminds me of the story my friend Bill tells, about a time when a
Canadian Major-General decided to inspect his unit (aircraft maintenance). 
One of the corporals was working on the undercarriage, with natural
consequences to his coveralls, when they were lined up for inspection.

The General was not impressed.  "You!  You're a disgrace!  Why are you so
filthy?"

The corporal replied "Sir!  I work for a living, Sir!"

No further questions were asked.  Of anyone.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 15:54:30 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Statistical impressions II

My concern with this data is less with all the multiple names, or that
canon data be preserved, as a lot of other people are doing that, but with
the overall political/social structure implied by this data.

As an example, I got the 'true' populations set up today (POP * Pop
multiplier) for a closer look at the various sectors and their poulations.

Vland NOT having tech levels _is_ putting a big hole in my analysis, but
here goes.

Total Populations by sector:

del	2.04E+12
mas	1.59E+12
lis	1.43E+12
dag	1.43E+12
ile	1.22E+12
cdr	1.11E+12
cor	1.10E+12
ant	9.40E+11
gus	9.10E+11
for	7.16E+11
zar	5.71E+11
vla	5.10E+11

TOTAL	1.36E+13

Delphi has the largest population; Core is pretty solidly in the middle;
Vland (!!) is the lowest, but his is probably entirely due to Vland having
an 'official' population of 20,000, rather than the 10's of Billions
expected.

But, when you look at populations by tech level, a different story
appears. Delphi, corridor and massilia have huge populations, but at TL-8
and 9. Core has two 'spikes' at TL-8 and TL-C, but Dagudashaag and Lishun
have the bulk of their population at TL B and C. In fact, Dagudashaag has
53% of the sectors population living at TL-C and another 11% living at
TL-D. 

What did the nacent Third Imperium offer these hight tech level societies
that made them want to join? Why didn't the 3I run into LARGER political
entities in these places.

I suspect that a great deal of the answers to this lies in the 'hidden' TL
figures of Vland; since Vland was the next sector after Core to join the
3I. I'll try to get the table into the next post. I'll also attempt to get
this stuff into my web page this weekend, but I'll make no promises..I'm
pretty booked up.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: 30 May 1997 23:06:00 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: PE and JTAS 26

>        BTW, one thing I REALLY LIKE ABOUT IG: I received PE two days ago,
>by Global Priority Mail. Taking into account that my T4 Harcover delayed for
>months, this is really quick for delivery in Europe.

On the other hand, they didn't even _ship_ mine until twenty days after they
billed my credit card.  It arrived a further eight days after shipping.  And
was in an envelope rather than a box (which their order form promised).

I am _not_ impressed.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 16:02:46 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Statistical Impressions II pt.2

Table is broken into two halves to fit

Sum of population sector     
tech ant   cdr      cor      dag      del      for
0 9.34E+10 9.00E+06 3.00E+02 0.00E+00 4.00E+10 9.31E+06
1 9.00E+10 1.00E+04 9.00E+03 0.00E+00 9.27E+06 9.00E+07
2 1.05E+08 1.59E+04 1.00E+08 1.07E+06 5.00E+09 1.22E+07
3 1.01E+09 4.08E+09 1.26E+07 3.70E+07 1.26E+07 1.47E+08
4 1.71E+09 1.09E+10 2.79E+08 5.20E+07 2.84E+07 8.78E+09
5 8.42E+09 1.35E+08 8.10E+10 9.53E+10 5.42E+10 3.56E+09
6 4.26E+09 1.43E+08 1.23E+08 4.61E+09 6.95E+10 1.02E+11
7 9.58E+10 3.56E+08 3.78E+10 1.68E+11 2.81E+08 1.83E+10
8 7.18E+10 4.10E+08 1.38E+11 1.39E+10 1.55E+08 1.10E+11
9 1.87E+11 9.08E+11 3.06E+11 1.36E+11 6.41E+11 2.10E+11
A 1.73E+11 8.02E+10 1.04E+11 2.78E+10 9.40E+11 1.03E+11
B 1.64E+11 5.90E+10 1.02E+11 7.09E+10 2.18E+11 3.54E+10
C 5.00E+10 4.08E+10 3.28E+11 7.52E+11 7.00E+10 8.07E+10
D 1.61E+07 9.00E+09 1.00E+07 1.61E+11 6.00E+01 4.53E+10
E 0.00E+00 0.00E+00 9.00E+07 6.00E+03 5.60E+04 0.00E+00

Sum of population (cont)
tech      
0 gus      ile      lis      mas      zar   Grand Total
1 5.07E+05 0.00E+00 0.00E+00 0.00E+00 0.00E+00 1.33E+11
2 8.00E+07 7.00E+01 5.00E+08 0.00E+00 0.00E+00 9.07E+10
3 6.01E+07 3.10E+05 8.00E+08 1.90E+03 0.00E+00 6.08E+09
4 1.00E+08 6.19E+06 3.68E+08 4.32E+08 8.01E+06 6.22E+09
5 4.04E+10 3.05E+09 3.31E+07 6.91E+07 5.66E+08 6.59E+10
6 7.03E+10 4.66E+09 1.32E+11 8.98E+09 9.28E+08 4.60E+11
7 1.25E+11 1.93E+11 7.31E+10 5.31E+09 4.60E+09 5.82E+11
8 7.93E+10 1.11E+10 8.79E+10 1.02E+10 2.48E+10 5.34E+11
9 1.41E+11 2.87E+11 1.13E+11 5.78E+11 2.45E+10 1.48E+12
A 4.82E+10 1.22E+11 1.27E+11 2.26E+11 3.44E+11 3.25E+12
B 6.70E+10 1.19E+11 2.07E+10 2.23E+11 7.47E+10 1.93E+12
C 1.23E+11 1.78E+11 5.33E+11 3.03E+11 9.61E+10 1.88E+12
D 6.40E+10 1.58E+11 3.01E+11 5.33E+10 1.07E+09 1.90E+12
E 1.52E+11 1.40E+11 4.08E+10 1.84E+11 4.02E+07 7.32E+11

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 23:20:45 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Speed, Relativity & such

At 05:47 PM 5/29/97 +0000, Craig wrote:
><snip>
>> How then, without using something akin to psionic precognition, can
>> you plot a safe course?
>
>The short answer is that, at high enough speeds (say above 0.5c or so),
>you probably can't.  Obstacles at this speed are both coming at you as
>near-c kinetic kill missiles, *and* length-contracted toward you.  You'd
>certainly only want to fly at near-c speeds well outside of star systems
>(to avoid all the crud that ends up orbiting stars); beyond that, you'd
>just say your prayers and count on the odds to protect you.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
> --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
>   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
>       "Every man and every woman is a star."
>
>

Kind of like modern airlines, eh?

If Amtrak don't go there, it ain't worth going.

Garry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 23:31:23 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: First Thoughts On Marc's FS Data

At 07:10 PM 5/29/97 +0000, Scott wrote:
><snip>
>Has it been officially decided how aggressive the Vilani and ROM were about
>colonizing?  Did they have every world in Core occupied, or did they only
>pick certain ones?
>
>Scott
>Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
>"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
>results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
>"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
>

I believe that the Vilani were limited to worlds that could be reached by
Jump-2; anything that could not be reach by J2 from some side was bypassed. 

ROM, I if I remember correctly, had J3, so anything with a j4 or larger gap
was also off limits.

I think one of the side bars in M:0 addresses this, but I can't locate it
right now.

Garry

------------------------------

Date: 30 May 1997 23:46:13 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: M:0/FS Sector data

>Here's a strange one, doing a text find in Word, I discovered 2 VLANDS! yes 
>theres another 'Vland' in Fornast sector.  Hex #0340  B260951-8.

Not at all strange.  How many Yorks are there?  There's a Hull in England and
another in Canada.  Kingston, Lincoln, London, Cambridge, Stratford... 
Settlers tend to reuse old and familiar names.

------------------------------

Date: 30 May 1997 23:42:24 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Re: First Thoughts On Marc's FS Data

>What about adding a trade classification like "R4" where the R stands for
ruined civilization and the number >stands for the Techlevel of the ruined
civilization. Any comments on this idea?

Sounds good to me.  In fact, I'm going to add this capability to Imperial
Grand Survey (and also fix the annoying Powerbook forced-quit bug).

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 00:20:22 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: First Thoughts On Marc's FS Data

At 03:34 AM 5/30/97 +0000, Alex wrote:
><snip>
>
>What about adding a trade classification like "R4" where the R stands for
ruined civilization and the number stands for the Techlevel of the ruined
civilization. Any comments on this idea?
>
>Alex
>
>
>
>E=Mail:	grazzit @flash.net
>
>Home Page:	http://www.flash.net/~grazzit/traveller.html

Perfect. Could quantify it further: A(n) for abandoned vs R(n) for Ruined as
in war or extensive natural catastrophe. Ruined worlds may have left over
live munitions or other dangers to consider, and still not be classified as
Amber or Red Travel Zones; TAS isn't Omnipresent is it?

Garry 
 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 00:40:21 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Speed, Relativity & such

At 07:13 AM 5/30/97 +0000, Glenn wrote:
><snip>

>The fundamental mistake you seem to be making is "effective speed 
>difference is only 30,000 kps".
>
>Here is *the* basic observation from which all relativity follows: Speed 
>of light is constant _in all reference frames_. It is the same for all 
>observers. Effective speed difference between a radar pulse (which is 
>"light"/electromagnetic radiation) and *anything* is going to be c 
>(300,000 kps) *not* 30,000 kps.
>
>I'm still getting a handle on this relativity stuff myself, and it's 
>getting late, so I will not figure out the answer to your example using 
>the Einstein-Lorentz equations. Sorry.
>
>
>
>
Not as sorry as I am. A rather key element of the history in my game
universe depends on NOT being able to have an effective sensor system at
relativistic speeds. If there is a real world way to make this work, I need
to come up with a different basis for a particular group.

Garry

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1389
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 31 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1390



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: FS-Data Starport Distribution
Re: FS statistical impressions
Re: Hmmmm...Is the truth stranger..
Re: Dorsai in Traveller
Re: FS Statistical impressions
Re: Re: First Thoughts On Marc's FS Data
Re:plastic guns in the real world
Re:B pop asteroid worlds
Re: FS statistical impressions
Re:jump troops and EMP
Getting places with Jump-1 or -2
Re: FS statistical impressions
Re: M0/FS Revised data
Weird world UWPs
Wading through the backlog...
Traveller: Beyond The Pale... Episode 1
Re: Yanks in space!
Re: Binary Stars
Re: Speed, relativity, and such

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 97 17:38:12 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: FS-Data Starport Distribution

On 05/30/97 at 01:04 PM,  "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
said:

> I like this proportions, however i don't agree with you barren point: 
> We don't have a tzerrible war that destroyed everything behind us in 
> M:0 like we had in TNE. Instead, it was rather a cessation of 
> interstellar commerce and traffic that brought the ROM down. Thusly 
> the effects on the population shouldn't have been as harsh for the 
> worlds! 

For the most part I agree, but only up to a point. On worlds where a
population couldn't survive without high tech base and that technology
was imported the people would have either all died or left. Worlds with
very small populations would, after 1500 years, be completely empty or
populated by some *very* inbred people. ;->

Anyway, IMO, worlds with 0-3 or A+ atmospheres, 0-1 hydrographics, and
pre-night populations of 0-2 should either be barren now or have
individual stories as to why they aren't.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 97 17:28:52 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: FS statistical impressions

On 05/30/97 at 12:56 PM,  "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
said:

> -> del 2726    Kiisamguushiirg E8A6A9C-0

> -> Kiisamguushiirg (named for the sound you make, slipping below the
> surface -> of this water world?) is pretty much improbable. Stone age
> billions living -> in the water.

Somebody has probably already addressed this, but it brings up an
interesting question.  Is the population always a *human* population...I
wouldn't think so.  

So, explain Kiisamguushiirg as a water world with a huge population of
Shlongs, intellegent dolphin-like creatures.  The Shlong live a carefree
existance beneath the waves with little need and no desire for
technology.  

Now, my second question is about the UWP, doesn't it go:
Port,Size,Atmos,Hydro,Pop,Gov,Law-Tech?
  E   8    A      6    A   9   C -  0

If so, we're not talking about a water world at all! We're talking about
one with an insidious (or is it corrosive) atmosphere with large oceans
of something and a *very* restrictive law level.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 97 19:29:02 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Hmmmm...Is the truth stranger..

On 05/30/97 at 12:21 PM,  "Peter  H. Brenton"
<pete@cummings.uchicago.edu> said:

> Since I am employed by a "Hot" Fusion laboratory, I looked into the
> "Cold" fusion research (of which the Palladium reactions are a
> spinoff/subset/superset) with a fearful eye.  I am skeptical but open
> to the possibility of a real discovery being made.

> My skepticism will end when Boston Edison builds a 300MW power plant
> which uses Palladium and Water as its consumables.

No offense, Peter, but my skepticism of "hot" fusion will end when
*anybody* builds a 300MW power plant using *any* hot fusion technology. 
;->

> I asked one of the scientists here about the cold fusion reactions and
> one of his comments was "if it were a nuclear reaction they'd be dead"
> referring to the theoretical need for Neutron Radiation emissions for
> a Fusion reaction to occur.  

I don't see how any of the "cold fusion" reactions can be any nuclear
reaction that we are familar with.  If there *really* is an energy
release going on then it's probably something new..what that something
new is, is a good subject for speculation. 

For some interesting reading get on the web and search out the works of
Drs H.E. Puthoff, D. Cole, A. Rueda, & B. Haisch.  


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 00:32:52 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Dorsai in Traveller

At 03:49 AM 5/30/97 +0000, Alex wrote:
>Here's something I've been wondering about and wanted to throw to the
mighty wisdom of the TML. Has anybody ever conceived of making a traveller
version of the Dorsai? 
>
>For those who don't know what I'm talking about, the Dorsai are a subrace
of Humans that have specializied in Soldiering and Military arts. They are
from Gordon Dicksons "Chylde (SP?) Cycle".
>
>How would you go about making such a race? Making a superior soldier race
without making them all into supermen would be kind of interesting. Any
ideas out there?
>
>Alex
>
>
>
>E=Mail:	grazzit @flash.net
>
>Home Page:	http://www.flash.net/~grazzit/traveller.html

up the minimums in characteristics to qualify for this 'career'. Anybody
with strength, endurance, dexterity or intelligence below 5 (or 6 or 7)
don't bother to apply. Reduces the pool of potential Dorsai in the game,
doesn't change the upper limits on characteristics. There never were many
Dorsai, but Dorsai there were, they were good.

Skill set mixes. With the Martial culture the Dorsai come from, if you
qualify as a Dorsai (see above), you start out with a level 1 in several
military related skills, even before enlistment. Pistol-1, Rifle-1,
Brawling-1, Intimidation-1, Intrusion-1. Or treat initial enlistment age as
12 or 8 instead of 18, and give them 3 terms with automatic re enlistment.

Least ways, that is what I would do to create a Dorsai or a Fremen.

Garry

 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 17:34:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: FS Statistical impressions

Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> wrote:

>>From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
>>Subject: RE: FS Statistical impressions

>>Also, Where DO these worlds of TL higher than C get their tech from? 
>>The 3I  is at the high end of TL C at the moment, rule of man was at 
>>the lower end of TL C and Valand never went beyond TL B before the 3I.
>>So where do so many TL D+ worlds come from? 

>Okay, I'm going to play heretic here. (Andrew slips into RPG mode as
>Prof. Frederick Hans-Waven, holder of the chair of techno-archology,
>Sylean Polytechnica, 1108)

>It is commonly supposed that the RoM did not exceed tech level 12 and that
>the Ziru Sirka tech level 11. Whilst one can safely assume this to be 
>the case for the Ziru Sirka, one cannot for the Rule of Man. We know 
>that the Terran Confederation achieved tech level 12 around -2200, 
>leading to their victory in the 8th Interstellar War (the invention of 
>jump 3 drives playing a vital role in that conflict). However the Rule 
>of Man did not come to an end for another 500 years. To assume that they 
>remained at the lower end of tech level 12 for this entire period is 
>possibly an error. Whilst the Terrans most certainly would have not been 
>able to devote the same degree of resources to research and development, 
>it would seem to go against virtually everything we know of the early 
>Solomani culture to assume that it simply came to a grinding halt with 
>the absorbsion of the Ziru Sirka.

Also (being even more heretical here) the Long Night lasted 1776 *years*!
During this time the Darrians went from TL 3 (with TL 12 Solomani input)
to TL 16.  Why can't some other pocket empire have hit TL 13+.  Some may
have collapsed, some may still be at TL 13 or even 14. 

I've never understood why everyone seems to think that the Long Night
means that technological progress has stopped.  It was a severe economic
collapse, and lots of marginal worlds died out, but 1776 years is a long
time for easily habitable, high tech, worlds like Terra to just sit around
and stagnate.  Clearly, none of this technology became widespread, but
that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. 

Comments?


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 20:41:00 -0500
From: Alex Rebsch <grazzit@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Re: First Thoughts On Marc's FS Data

At 11:42 PM 5/30/97 GMT, you wrote:

>>What about adding a trade classification like "R4" where the R stands for

>ruined civilization and the number >stands for the Techlevel of the ruined

>civilization. Any comments on this idea?

>

>Sounds good to me.  In fact, I'm going to add this capability to Imperial

>Grand Survey (and also fix the annoying Powerbook forced-quit bug).

>

>


What is Grand Survey? this is the second menttion of it that I've noticed and I haven't a clue what it is. Can some enlightened soul take pity on my lack of knowledge and explain it?


Alex




E=Mail:	grazzit @flash.net


Home
Page:<underline><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>	http://www.flash.net/~grazzit/traveller.html</color></underline>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 20:44:06 -0500
From: The Stump Family <stumps@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re:plastic guns in the real world

Actually, the so-called plastic gun that supposedly was 'invisible' to
airport x-ray machines was neither all-plastic nor invisible to the X.
In reality it was a Glock 9mm with a plastic coating on most of the
exterior. The major components are still steel, it is very visible to
x-ray scanners and metal detectors, and it is fairly common. The
confusion was (I believe) caused by a British tabloid raving about
invisible terrorist weapons; but they could have been repeating an
American rag. To the best of my knowledge, 'all-plastic' guns are still
extremely experimental and almost always a)one-shot weapons that 2) use
metal bullets.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 21:09:03 -0500
From: The Stump Family <stumps@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re:B pop asteroid worlds

Alex rebsch wrote;

<snip of earlier post about B pop worlds>

> What I don't understand is how can an Asteroid Belt support
> 800 Billion people? Or for that matter how could a small world?
> Because 4 of these worlds are small and one is an Ast. Can this be right?
> 
> 
> Alex
> 
> 
> 

Actually, it has been estimated that the solar system could support
about 1 trillion (1 million million) people - all at above North
American upper-middle class living standards - with only 3-5 billion
living on the surface of the planet Earth. The asteroids make perfect
combination home/resource/export bases, planetoids, moons, and small
planets are gathering places and communications centers, and a great
number of people live in small habitats in solar orbits. Once you _got_
into space a society like this could probably be maintained by TL8-9,
perhaps as low as TL5 (perhaps).
	(Freeman Dyson once said this is closer to what he had in mind when he
made the quote that eventually led to the idea of the Dyson Sphere - a
Dyson Cloud)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 02:06:46 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: FS statistical impressions

On Fri, 30 May 1997 08:08:20 -0500 (CDT), you wrote:

> > del 2726    Kiisamguushiirg E8A6A9C-0
> > 
> > One is our familiar hellhole of a religious dictatorship Saazi, but
> > Kiisamguushiirg (named for the sound you make, slipping below the surface
> > of this water world?) is pretty much improbable. Stone age billions living
> > in the water.
> 
> Hmmm.  If I recall correctly, hydrographics A simply means the surface is 
> around 95% covered by water, but it doesn't say how deeply it is covered 
> by water.  
> 
> 'Course, they could always be living on rafts, I suppose, if you want to 
> go with the deep-water theory.
> 
> Then there's always the possibility that the inhabitants aren't humans as 
> we know them.  Maybe they have gills, or some other adaptation that 
> allows them to live in the water.  Or, if you want to go with the 
> shallows theory, they live in and out of the water, as necessary.  
> 
> I'm sure there are other possibilities...

The surface can also be 100% ice.  You can live *on* it, but
10,000,000,000 people... hmmm....

James W. Lindsay     Vancouver, British Columbia
  "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
    the grace to accept the things I cannot,
         and a great big bag of money."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 21:14:36 -0500
From: The Stump Family <stumps@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re:jump troops and EMP

Actually, I assume that EMP against TLA+ worlds would have far less of a
long term impact than in Real Life; fiber optic cables and computers,
ceramic electronics, superconductors, etc> would all weather EMP very
well. Sensors (esp. radar), antennae, comm units (and similar things)
and comm relays, on the other hand.... This would disrupt communications
, detection, etc. It would also allow the follow-on jamming prom ECM
pods to 'blend in" making the Jtroopers harder to find - the whole
point. In a few weeks all of the temporary damage would be cleaned up.
Long after the battle.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 01:23:43 -0700
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au>
Subject: Getting places with Jump-1 or -2

Jump-n doesnt limit you getting places. It just means you need
to get more fuel tankage, and do it in multiple short hops. This
may be slower, but it gets you there.

Of course, this assumes any ship can calculate a jump course
from "here" to "there", and not rely on pre-calculated point-to-
point courses.

The Vilani probably did it that way, which was another reason why
their interstellar society collapsed when the more administrativly
challenged Terrans started running it (though for my money the
big reason was the centralized maintenence of all starships and
fusion plants, done as a method of ensuring a world could not leave
the Ziruu Sirkaar).
 

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 21:23:34 -0500
From: The Stump Family <stumps@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: FS statistical impressions

Scott Ellsworth wrote:

<snip of statistics and commentary better addressed by others>

> I was even unhappy with Shudusham,
> a TL12 world with 70 billion industrialized people.  They would NEVER be
> subservient to Sylea, as they could dust the Syleans in any kind of conflict.


7 million people live in New York City, a major industrial/tech. center
for the entire planet.

2 million Afghanis live along the Afghan/Iran border. They have tech. at
least 20 years out of date in most things (weapons about 5-10 years old)

Now imagine both are sovereign nations with no allies. If the Afghans
wanted the New Yorkers to join their empire, I bet they'd say 'Yes'

in a New York minute.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 21:37:15 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: M0/FS Revised data

Quoth JEFF ZEITLIN:
>   There are quite a number of worlds with atmospheres ranging
>   from VeryThin to None, and worlds of Exotic, Corrosive, or
>   Insidious atmospheres which I felt had too low a tech to be
>   supporting unmodified humans - I selected a TL of 8 as the
>   cutoff - a TL7 can't do it, IMO, more because of unreliability
>   and instability than because of absolute incapability

Though at least _some_ of those are probably non-human minor race
homeworlds -- why should humaniti have all the fun?

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 20:58:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tony Zbaraschuk <tonyz@eskimo.com>
Subject: Weird world UWPs

Do remember that not all worlds are colonized by humans.  IIRC, 
Milieu 1100 has an average of 1-2 worlds/subsector with minor race
populations.  So a high-pop waterworld could be a race of
intelligent octopi, or possibly a colony of Dolphins seeded
by the Rule of Man, or ...

Suggested reading: Alan Dean Foster, CACHALOT.


Tony Z

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 00:41:13 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Wading through the backlog...

I've had a) a bunch of problems with my email server and b) a very busy
real life over the last 3 weeks, so I'm in the process of wading through 
over 100 digests from the month of May... And I do mean wading, I'm 
up to #1345 and in the middle of the "Well I'll just take my ball and leave"
war going on...

I so do hope that it has ended by now. Don't let me down folks...

So, never fear, if there is still a TML list, or anyone on it, by the time I 
catch up with y'all, I'll be proposing the usual items that break 92% of the
laws of physics, and y'all will have something more fun to flame :)

P.S. Just upgraded from Eudora Light to Eudora Pro....filters is so cool :)

Yours, and easily amused...



**********************************************************
Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 00:57:44 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: Traveller: Beyond The Pale... Episode 1

	Wherein our Heroes meet, enter into Hideously Unconscionable
Contracts and Assorted DoubleDealings and Backstabbings, and their cargo
gets stolen.


	Just ran the first session of my latest campaign, titled Traveller:
Beyond The Pale.  As I did for our last campaign, I'll be posting game
summaries as they occur.  We're using KB v.2.0.  Much of the intrigue is
inspired by some research on legal ethics I'm currently doing.

The Cast:

Amr Santayema: a young, brash, and altogether too clever merchant, played
by the TML's own Ross Coburn.

Lt Kehaaarl: Aslan ex-marine, played by a non-TML'er.  Big, strong, loyal,
honourable, and dumb as plywood, employed as a body guard to...

...Sir Loreni Vilash: Vilani merchant from a poor family whose trading
acumen led him to a knighthood and the captaincy of a brand new free
trader.  Played by nobody you know.

Dame Sharee Paptaa: a prominent chanteuse, whose name may change if I
decide not to be too pissed off at her player having missed the game due to
serious illness.  See below for more examples of what happens with names
when people miss sessions...

Perlis Dalal: a muscular female ex-scout played by the TML's Glenn Grant.
Glenn has done a killer character background using a system of his own
devising, which I'll let him share with you.


The Story:

	The game opened with Sir Loreni at the con of his free trader, the
Rampant Phallus of Capitalist Free Enterprise (Renzo missed last game, and
I am a vengeful GM, hence the name >:)), coming in for a landing on
Mishegaan III (D33446C-7), a miserable dirtball orbiting a type K0 V star
two parsecs out in the great Rift coreward of Vland.  Mishegaan III is
notable only as an LSP mining colony, and as the only star system within 3
parsecs of the Shugilli cluster, a cluster of nearly 20 main-sequence stars
and many habitable planets, sitting out in the Rift.  The cluster was
originally named the Shugilli Gupaa cluster, because it formed an asterism
resembling a common cooking utensil when seen from Vland.

	At game date, IY-75, the Shugilli cluster has been Red-Zoned since
the IISS first re-explored the area 25 years previously.  Some months
previously, a rumour began circulating that due to maneuverings by the
Conservative faction in the Moot, the interdict would be lifted and
unrestricted access to the Cluster would be allowed.  Hence Sir Loreni's
presence in the system with a hold full of Fusion+ units.

	Mishegaan III's Downport proved to be a rather dull expanse of
bedrock, bordered by a fuel dump, warehouses, and terminal buildings,
situated near the wall of a 16-km crater, into which the sole settlement on
the planet was built; mostly dormitories with windows looking out over the
crater.  Arriving at approximately 02:30 AM, Sir Loreni and his crew went
through the usual arrival formalities, and went in search of amusement,
having been cooped up on board for  two weeks en route to Mishegaan.

	The town being rather akin to a boarding school dorm populated by
Rye-Ben blue-collar workers run by heavily armed monks with no respect for
one's civil rights, said amusement proved to be the spaceport bar, a rather
dismal establishment on the terminal concourse.  When Sir Loreni and
Kehaaarl walked in, the only patrons in the bar were Perlis, sitting in the
corner, and some offshift spaceport ground crew.  Sir Loreni and Kehaaarl
proceeded to order drinks.

	Meanwhile, up on the concourse, Amr Santayema looked out over the
tarmac, with bitterness in his heart.  Having been forced out of the family
firm by the concerted action of three cousins, he watched as the family
ship boosted for orbit, leaving him behind.  With sorrows in hand, he
headed for the spaceport bar to drown them.  Meanwhile, Sir Loreni had
invited Perlis over for a drink.  They began discussing the commercial
possibilities of the cluster opening up.  Perlis, while ostensibly off
active service, had really been assigned to cover the wholesale commercial
invasion of the cluster first hand, and to document it so as to prove that
it was a terribly bad idea and prevent this form of recontact from ever
occuring again.  She was assigned a Type S Scout and authourized to sell it
if needs be, in order to finance participation in one of the numerous
hastily concieved commercial ventures to the Cluster.  She raised the
possibility of doing so.

	Overhearing their conversation, Amr wandered over and offered his
services.  Quick access to the spaceport datanet revealed that there was a
recently repossessed Locust-clast Frontier Trader (designed by Ross, which
he's going to post to the TML shortly if he knows what's good for him)
available for sale on the tarmac.  Amr proposed a deal wherein the three
would form a venture whereby the other two would sell their ships to
purchase the Locust, the three would incorporate, and he would provide his
services as 1st officer for 10% of the shares in the corporation.

	Sir Loreni pulled a spectacular failure on an intelligence and law
roll, and thereby didn't see that this would be the equivalent of giving
Amr 7 megacredits for the benefit of his services.  Perlis failed her roll,
and likewise thought it was a fair deal.

	While they were discussing the deal, two rather scruffy-looking
Vilani walked in.  After a few minutes, Kehaaarl noted that they were
eavesdropping; not having a good command of either Galanglic or Vilani, he
resorted to the unsubtle but very direct means of raising his hackles and
growling in their direction; they got the message.

	Shortly thereafter, Amr finished drawing up the contract.  All
three parties having signed and agreed to meet at the shipyard at 10:00 the
next morning, he departed to find a registry office where he could safely
file it.  Consulting the spaceport directory, he discovered that the only
lawyer on the planet, indeed on the system, was one Liontzel Huutzaa, the
CLO for LSP's operation.  Calling him at the local equivalent of about 4:00
AM, he offered him 10,000 credits for filing the contract safely (this is
not exactly how things work IRL, but I figured that hey, Imperial law would
be different...).  Huutzaa blearily agreed, charging Amr the agreed fee
plus 40 cr for copies.

	All proceeded off to bed, their commercial disaster having been
completed.

	The next morning, at approximately 0:800, Sir Loreni woke up with a
splitting hangover and the realization that he had been had soooo badly it
physically hurt.  Grimly shaving, he recieved a comm call from one Onyas
Sedducha, the manager and agent of Dame Paptaa, who informed him that she
was looking for partners in a joint venture, to purchase a ship capable of
J-3.  Sir Loreni informed him that sadly, he was already a party to such a
deal; Sedducha replied that there might be a way out of it.  Patching
Huutzaa in, Sedducha explained that if he contacted the shipyard owner
immediately, putting a down payment on the Locust, Amr would be largely out
of luck.  Huutzaa explained that at the moment, LSP was sitting on two
recently repossessed J-3 exploratory traders (an FSY Recollet and an older
FSY Lalemant converted for cargo hauling), whose hapless owners had landed
to refuel only to have their ships seized under the Megacorporate Joint
Repossession Agreement of IY-50.  Stating that J-3 ships were probably
going to become an extremely hot commodity over the next few weeks, Huutzaa
proposed that he, Dame Paptaa, Sir Loreni, and Perlis pool their resources
(in Dame Paptaa's case, her yacht), put down payments on all three ships
(taking advantage of Huutzaa's ability to give them very favourable terms)
and resell them a few weeks later at a handsome profit.

	Sir Loreni agreed; after being presented with a fait accompli, Amr
bowed to the inevitable, accepting 3.5 Mcr from a rather displeased Sir
Loreni as a settlement for avoiding the first contract.  He reinvested it
in the newly formed Quintana Speculative Ventures LIC.  After sales of
ships and various other transactions (Perlis having got a rather good price
for her Type S), shareholdings were settled as follows:

Perlis: 53%, Dame Paptaa 20%, Sir Loreni 18.6%, Amr 5%, Kehaaarl 0.02
percent (he invested his life savings), Huutzaa 0.02 (as a finder's fee),
and the remainder unissued.

[note to the non-lawyers here; if you ever run into a lawyer pulling a deal
such as this, turn him in to his Bar Association; this is so unethical I'm
getting queasy thinking about it and am only using it as a plot device]

	That being accomplished, personal effects and cargoes were
transferred off various vessels, and people settled in.  The mood at the
spaceport was tense; there were nearly two dozen ships in port, with more
arriving every day.  Lodgings were scare, prices were high, and the mood
tense... until, without warning, a Far Trader sitting on the tarmac blew
up.  Much confusion and chaos ensued, with Sir Loreni, Amr, and Perlis
immediately heading for their ships in order to guard them.  En route, Sir
Loreni recieved a comm call from his engineer, who informed him that
approximately 15 ships had jumped into the system so far that morning.  He
then recieved another call, this time from the head of spaceport security,
who regretfully informed him that during the confusion following the blast,
his cargo of Fusion+ units, stored in a warehouse, had disappeared.  Sir
Loreni was informed that the spaceport director would be calling a meeting
of all captains, and imposing a ban on all further departures pending
resolution of the blast and theft.

	While Sir Loreni headed for the captain's conference, Kehaaarl
headed to the warehouse from which his employer's cargo had been stolen,
where he found a detachment of spaceport security investigating the crime.
Possessing little Galanglic, he had some difficulty explaingin his purpose
to the spaceport cops.


	We called it at this point; I'll post more following next game.

R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 97 23:17:48 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Yanks in space!

On 1997-05-30 11:21 thus spake Douglas E. Berry:

>At 10:18 PM 5/30/97 +1200, you wrote:
>>At 10:54 30/05/97 +0100, Anders Backman wrote:
>>>I'm not arguing that Traveller should be swedish, just that US culture
>>>should not be taken as the normal case as it is so way off the average case
>>>here on earth.
>>>
>>By that measure we should be playing 'Indo-Chinese in Space' :)
>
>Not to sound to jingoistic, or trying to start a flame war, but I haven't
>noticed any Swedish flags on the Moon, and the only man-made object to
>leave the solar system has a US flag decal stuck on it.

Ouch. For not trying, you do a good job of sounding jingoistic.

I think Anders' point is well taken. There's no reason to believe that 
the contemporary dominant (domineering?) culture on Earth should be the 
model for the general case in the future, even if said culture was the 
one to get into space second. Oh... and land on the moon too. :)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 97 23:17:55 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Binary Stars

On 1997-05-30 10:31 thus spake Lewis Roberts:

>>>>In my last post (re: spectral distribution), I neglected to include the
>>>>distribution of stars into single, binary, and trinary systems, so here we
>>>>go.  Of the 4562 systems covered in the data, 2624 are single, 1821 are
>>>>binary, and 117 are trinary.
>>>
>>>IIRC, there should be more binary and ternary systems that single, but I do
>>>not have my references here.
>
>>IMHO, if anything, there should be *fewer* binary & trinary systems. I 
>>recall reading somewhere that current theories on stellar system 
><formation favour solitary systems.
>
>Yes, Theory does say somethiing like that, (at least some theories) but
>its wrong.   Stars which have recently become stars have a very high
>percentage of multiple systems, some papers suggesting as much as 100%.
> As stars age, they get stripped of their companions, the exact process
>is still undetermined.  Looking at the total population of stars, the
>percentage is about 40-50% of stars are multiple, the rest are single.  

I was referring to systems -- "with worlds" -- not lone stars or binaries 
& trinaries without worlds. I understand that due to tidal forces or 
something, planetesimals cannot form in stable orbits around multiple 
star systems, so the commonality of *worlds* with multiple stars in the 
system should be far less than the solitary case, like the solar system.

I'm more than willing to be corrected...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 97 23:17:51 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@eagle.wbm.ca>
Subject: Re: Speed, relativity, and such

On 1997-05-30 09:25 thus spake Robert Flammang:

>> If I understand it correctly, it is your perceived *time* that changes.
>
>   Actually, it is not a case of things shrinking OR of perceptions
>   changing.  It is a case of length and time not being /invariant/, ie,
>   they are different things in different reference frames.  

Lazy semantics. Of course by "perceived" I meant "the rate of passage of 
time measured by the person in that particular reference frame".

>> Here is *the* basic observation from which all relativity follows: Speed 
>> of light is constant _in all reference frames_. It is the same for all 
>> observers. Effective speed difference between a radar pulse (which is 
>> "light"/electromagnetic radiation) and *anything* is going to be c 
>> (300,000 kps) *not* 30,000 kps.
> 
>   The speed of light is constant in all reference frames, which means
>   that it is 300,000 kps in the planetary frame where Garry worked out
>   his example, which means that it is only 30,000 kps faster than the
>   ship in the planetary frame.  So Garry worked out the problem exactly
>   right for the planetary frame, but then he said "crew have .05 of a
>   second to react and dodge the object".  That would be true except
>   that the ship's time is different from the planets' time.

When he said "crew have .05 of a second to react and dodge the object" I 
assumed that Garry was working out the time from the frame of the ship, 
not the planeetary. Therefore I assumed he made an error when he stated 
that the signal was 30,000 kps faster than the ship.

Sure, his answer was right for the planetary frame, but that wasn't what 
I thought he was referring to.

>
>   So Einsteinian relativity says that three things: length, time, and
>   simultaneity (all invariant under Galilean relativity) are different
>   in different reference frames.
>

I recently saw a neat diagram explaining non-simultaneity in Einsteinian 
relativity on a web page, I'll share it with the group.

A train is moving at .95c ... Observer A is on the middle of the train, 
observer B by the tracks. Their watches and measuring sticks are 
synchronized at the moment they pass each other. Lightning strikes both 
ends of the train.

             \_           A           _/
  --->         \.OOO_OOO_OOO_OOO_OXXD/      --->   
================================================
                          B

The light waves propogate. Observer B receives both signals at the same 
time, so he says the lighting strikes were simultaneous. Observer A gets 
the waves at the head of the train first, so he says the lightning 
strikes were not simultaneous.

They're both right.

                )))))))))  (((((A((((
  --->                .OOO_OOO_OOO_OOO_OXX  --->   
================================================
                ))))))))) B (((((((((

>   Man, I love this stuff!

Yeah, it's freaky!

>   None of this changes Garry's basic point though, that it is
>   dangerous to drive faster than you can see. You'll need some pretty
>   long-ranged sensors to travel at relativistic speeds through a
>   cluttered space-lane.

Point taken.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1390
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 31 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1391



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: X and E ports
What type B starports can build!
Re: Binary Stars
Re: Speed, Relativity & such (fwd)
Re: Revision of the UWP Data: B Pop worlds
Re: Lasing down jump troops
Re: Hard Times tech question (Ion drives and MPD drives)
Value of a credit
Re: Smart guns
Re: FS/M0 Data
Re: Melody
Re: Yanks in space!
Re: M:0/FS Sector data
Re: jump troops and EMP
Re: Value of a credit
Re: Speed, Relativity & such (fwd)
Re: Requst for information
Re: Yanks in space!
IGS Updated
Re: FS statistical impressions
Re: What type B starports can build!
Re: FS/M0 Data

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 22:43:25 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: RE: X and E ports

Friday, May 30, 1997 6:37 AM, Erwin Fritz [SMTP:efritz@glja.com]
wrote:
> I'd say that 9,999 times out of 10,000, a world will have at least
> an E- starport, by this definition, which is why I don't agree with
it.
> It's safe to say that, unless your world is a gas giant or is 100%
> covered by liquid or fire, there is always a flat piece of land
> _somewhere_ that you can use. This makes the X starport definition
> above almost useless (no offense).

In my Classic/Mega Traveller campaign I puzzled why every
planet had at least a bit of level bedrock marked and why
you had so many adventures where clearly you were suppose
to land your scoutship and then use auxilarly ships to
move about (even if they were slow).

I came to the conclusion that it must be that you _can_
land your ship, but it is too risky to do when alterantives
exist.  The only reasons I could come up with are...
- -I you try and land on vegitation (etc.) your thrusters kick
up debris and dust obscuring your vision/sesnors.
- -Ships are heavy and if you don't know the terrain very
well there is some chance that the ground under one of
your supports will give way just as you are landing
(sink into the soil and get stuck, etc.) and give
complications in a situation where you have very little
time to react.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 19:45:28 +1200
From: Brody  Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: What type B starports can build!

I think that Type B starports can build only spacecraft (non jump).  Of
course they could always just leave that bit out and finish the ship
somewhere that can install a jump drive.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 10:02:09 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Binary Stars

On Fri, 30 May 1997, Glenn Hoppe wrote:
> I was referring to systems -- "with worlds" -- not lone stars or binaries 
> & trinaries without worlds. I understand that due to tidal forces or 
> something, planetesimals cannot form in stable orbits around multiple 
> star systems, so the commonality of *worlds* with multiple stars in the 
> system should be far less than the solitary case, like the solar system.
> 
> I'm more than willing to be corrected...
> 
Planets can theoreticly form around stars in binary, trinary or more
systems, they just have to be close enough to one of the stars. This 
star has to dominate the gravitasjonal forces. A maybe farfetched 
example is our own solar system, where Jupiter is the second *very* small
star. The Sun still dominates the gravitational pull on the planets.  


Tommy Grav                  tommy.grav@astro.uio.no    
Institute of Astrophysics   http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/
University in Oslo          "If you value your lives, be somwhere 
Norway                       else!" - Ambassador Delenn B5 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 00:04:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Speed, Relativity & such (fwd)

In mail you write:

>>Consider, a photon from it's own perspective is everywhere in the universe
>>at the same time.
>
> The universe has shrunk? Or your ability to perceive the universe has shrunk?
>
> This is where I get shaky in relativity; is it the objective universe that
> changes, or the moving person's perception of or ability to perceive the
> universe? 

You are suffering from the common delusion that there must be a
"correct" reference frame. That is, that *one* frame of reference is
better than the others. 

But the whole *point* is that all inertial (ie non-accelerated) frames
are equal. So the photon that sees the universe as a 2d plane that
exists for zero time is just as good (or valid) a view as yours. 

"The objective universe" is not a valid concept. "An objective frame of
reference" *is* a valid concept, but you have to remember that there
are other EQUALLY VALID frames.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 01:45:11 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Revision of the UWP Data: B Pop worlds

In mail you write:

>>       SUGGESTED CHANGE:  Change the B Pop to A Pop in all 7 worlds.
>
> What I don't understand is how can an Asteroid Belt support 800 Billion 
> people? Or for that matter how could a small world? Because 4 of these 
> worlds are small and one is an Ast. Can this be right?

On Asteriods you use the *volume*, not the surface area. Consider an
asteroid that's a 10x10x10 km cube. The surface area is 600 km^2. But if
you divide it into "levels" about 20 meters apart (ie 20 m from floor
of one level to floor of the next), you get 500 layers at 100 km^2
each. That's 50 thousand km^2! And it's just one medium to small sized
asteroid. 

For a small world, where you need to dig in since there likely isn't an
atmosphere, you get a similar effect, as you can likely dig as much as
100 km deep. That gives you 5000 layers, each with close to the area of
the whole planet! (for a 500 km radius planet dug into up to 100 km, I
get a volume of 3e15 m^3 or about 1e5 km^2 of floor space. 

That works out to a 125x125 meter square for every member of that 800
billion population. Figure in the 20 meters of headroom and that's not
a bad spread.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 00:09:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Lasing down jump troops

In mail you write:

> Actually, I just had an idea for a jump-troop defense.
>
> Forget stealth.  They're ablating their pods to brake against the
> atmosphere.   This will be visible a continent away.  And they'll
> be on a predictable course.
>
> This means that a laser beam can lock right onto them.  Say, a starship 
> laser cannon with ROF 800.  Fire one pulse per target, which will 
> almost certainly kill it.  Have a network of these things set up
> across your continent, and _wham_.  Barbecued jump-troopers.

> Of course, you'll need a laser frequency that won't go plasmatic in
> the atmosphere, but any jump-trooper in line-of-sight is dead.

Two problems. At the required energy levels, just abut *any* frequency
will induce *massive* ionization in the air. That severely limits your
range. Second, the very plasma sheath that makes the capsule visible
*protects* it. It's opaque, so most of your beam energy goes to heating
the plasma, not the capsule!

Also, due to atmospheric effects, you *can't* fire at the capsules at
"shallow" angles through the atmosphere. That means that you need to
use lasers that aren't more than a few hundred km from the drop zone.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 01:28:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Hard Times tech question (Ion drives and MPD drives)

In mail you write:

> I've heard that the in-system drives described in Hard Times are rather 
> more accurate than those described in FF&S.  Well, I have a question about
> these drives and about advanced rockets in general.  
>
> Ion Drives and MPD (Magnetoplasmadynamic) are the two most fuel efficient
> drives listed.  However, both are very low acceleration.  MPD is basically
> limited to 1% of a G or less.  Now, this is a pretty small acceleration. 
> I was wondering how one would go about increasing the acceleration of an
> ion or MPD drive.  My first thought would be to increase fuel consumption. 
>
> If you double (or increase by 10X) the fuel consumption, does that double
> (or increase by 10X) the thrust, or is the relation between the two more
> complex?  Also, do you need twice as much power to power it, or with the
> same power plant work to heat and eject twice as much fuel. 

The reason those drives are low accel are because they are *inherently*
low mass flow devices. They both rely on charging something and then
using electric or magnetic fields to accelerate it. The thrust is
limited by the field strengths. To get a decent mass flow, you need a
*short* acceleration path, but that limits your field strength severely.

BTW, do realize that while higher accelerations get you to a given
velocity quicker, they also give you less to to *benefit* from your speed.

Consider how long it takes to cover 1 AU (assuming you don't need to
stop).

accel	time
- -----	-----
 .01g	20 days
 .1 g	6 days
 1  g	2 days
10  g	15 hours

As you can see, you hit the law of diminishing returns pretty fast.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 13:31:57 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Value of a credit

Marc Miller writes:
>In 1977, I used $1 per credit. Look what inflation over 20 years has done.

That seems to make $3 per credit today sound plausible. 

Ryan Christensen writes:
>	Since a Credit is based on the mentary value of one hour's worth of
				       ^^^^^^^
Is that a word or a mistype? If it is a word, what does it mean?

>work, why don't we just base it on the minimum wage of the country or
>whatever? That would give us 1 ImpCr = $4.75 US. 

Close, but in the system I reccomend it is the hourly wage for an unskilled
laborer _after_ accounting for dependents and taxes. In cultures with
predominantly single-income families and/or high tax rates, the minimum
wage could be a number of credits. A credit is what's left over after the
earner has paid his taxes and alimony ;-).


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 13:43:07 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Smart guns

Per Bernhardsson writes:
>Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>>At 12:25 29/05/97 +0200, you wrote:
>>>Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>Only the law-abiding. The criminals are already criminals, so what's a few
>>>>more years if you're caught?
>>>
>>>How about execution?
>> 
>>The problem here being that presumably there'd be a similar penalty for
>> murder, so you just kill all the whitnesses as it won't make things any
>> worse than they already are.
> 
>Ok, this is going a bit overboard here, but there are many different
>types of death sentences... Like "death by torture", "death by lethal
>injection"... 

That's not going overboard at all. According to Robert van Gulik the Chinese 
of the Yang Dynasty did have very few sentenses lower than death, and they
did have a whole lot of different degrees of death sentenses.

>I know that if I had a choice I'd prefer a painless death
>instead of a painful one. Now, I just hope I don't have to make that
>choice though.

The trouble is that most criminals don't expect to get caught. You can deter
some people by extra harsh sentenses, of course (reputedly English burglars
were most reluctant to carry guns on the job as the judges always increased
sentenses dramatically if a burglar was caught with a gun on him), but the
people who actually consider the risk of getting caught are deterred by much 
lesser sentenses. Once a criminal convinces himself that he is not going to 
get caught, the penalties only matters when he realizes that he was wrong.
And at that time it's usually a bit late. If you make the prospect of being
caught more horrible than the prospect of getting killed, you are asking for
last stands, dead hostages, and dead law enforcement officers.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8
 
 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 13:58:55 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: FS/M0 Data

<Jonathan@hccm.co.uk> writes:
>2) I thought the highest tech level in M0 was 12? (I may be wrong)
>There are 90 worlds in the data with techlevels of D or E, scattered around
>the 9 sectors. (If anyone wants a list drop me an email).

Let me repeat the suggestion I came up with after discussing that very
problem a few weeks ago: Refine (read: change) the definitions a little
bit:

The TL of a planet indicates the highest TL used by most of its inhabitants.
Since TLs can differ for different areas this may mean only that the planet
is very advanced in one limited area: medicine, robotics, environmental
control, etc.

The TL of an interstellar civilization indicates its highest space
technology level. Thus the RoM may have had Tl 14 weapons and vac suits,
but they did not have more tha Jump-3 ships. And Sylea may be TL 12 going
on 13 already in Year 0, but the 3rd Imperium will not reach TL 13 in
space technology until 300.

_Nevertheless_ I also reccomend that _every_ world with a TL of more than 12
should be examined for consistency and be included in a sort of gazeteer.
These planets would be of extreme interest to the Imperium and would
recieve close scrutiny. 


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 97 13:27 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Melody

In-Reply-To: <199705301710.NAA21007@carouge.DMI.USherb.CA>

<< Joke heard during the Rule of Man:
Solomani: knock knock!
Vilani: Who's there?
Solomani: Meson
Vilani: Meson who?
solomani: Meson guns, ZAP! ZAP! >>

Except of course the mesons would pass through the door...

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 97 13:27 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Yanks in space!

In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19970530102154.442fe496@mail.hooked.net>

<< Not to sound to jingoistic, or trying to start a flame war, but I haven't
noticed any Swedish flags on the Moon, and the only man-made object to
leave the solar system has a US flag decal stuck on it. >>

Neither of which would have got there without German rocket scientists.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 05:46:21 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: M:0/FS Sector data

> Date: 30 May 1997 23:46:13 GMT
> From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
> Subject: Re: M:0/FS Sector data
> 
> >Here's a strange one, doing a text find in Word, I discovered 2 VLANDS! yes
> >theres another 'Vland' in Fornast sector.  Hex #0340  B260951-8.

Don't forget that Vilani is a _tonal_ language & these two names may not
sound anyting alike in Vilani

> Not at all strange.  How many Yorks are there?  There's a Hull in > England and
> another in Canada.  Kingston, Lincoln, London, Cambridge, Stratford...
> Settlers tend to reuse old and familiar names.

Yes but the real question we need to answer is not "Is it plausible that
some places will have the same name ?" but "How many duplicate names
would be inconvienient to have & should therefore be avoided for ease of
play ?"  I am perfectly willing to accept the duplicate names which
already existed in Traveller canon but I am not sure it is a good idea
to add so many more (even when we know that they are not the same name
in Vilani - we are _not_ speaking Vilani).

Another question no one has raised is how many of these worlds should
have Vilani names to begin with.

When the Solomani conquered the Vilani the Vilani had already occupied
and named most of the planets in their empire however the Solomani then
renamed many of these planets.  In Milieu 1100 many sectors had a lot of
planets with earth names and I think that Milieu 0 should too.  It is a
lot more likely that these planets were renamed at conquest, during the
Rule of Man, or during the Long Night than that these planets kept
Vilani names for 2,000 years after they stopped being exclusively Vilani
& were renamed only during the Third Imperium.  It is true that the
Vilani may have reclaimed the old Vilani names for their planets after
the Second Imperiums fall but you could also argue that the conservative
Vilani would be more likely to keep the planets name what it had been
for the past few centuries rather than change it (even back to a name
that it had for milennia before).

When I attempted to generate names for planets in the Verge sector (for
a TNE pocket empire I was working on 18 months ago) I looked carefully
at the map of the first Imperium and considered its influence & culture
in the region.  Then I gave each planet within the First Empire a 4 in 6
chance of having a Vilani name and a 2 in 6 chance of having a non
Vilani name (of which 5 in 6 were Terran and 1 in 6 were made up). 
Planets outside the first Empire used the same system with different
probabilities.  I also checked each planet for the possible presence of
a native minor race (human or nonhuman) and if this race was present
gave the planet a 3 in 6 chance of being named in their language.

P. S. If anyone wants a 60% finished and 30% named 1201 and 1117 dual
data listing for the Verge sector sorted by subsector and adapted from
the DGP data using the collapse a sector rules and/or a 1201 pocket
empire in Verge email me & I'll be glad to send you the data.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 08:43:45 -0500
From: Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com>
Subject: Re: jump troops and EMP

The Stump Family wrote:
> 
> Actually, I assume that EMP against TLA+ worlds would have far less of a
> long term impact than in Real Life; fiber optic cables and computers,
> ceramic electronics, superconductors, etc> would all weather EMP very
> well. Sensors (esp. radar), antennae, comm units (and similar things)
> and comm relays, on the other hand.... This would disrupt communications
> , detection, etc. It would also allow the follow-on jamming prom ECM
> pods to 'blend in" making the Jtroopers harder to find - the whole
> point. In a few weeks all of the temporary damage would be cleaned up.
> Long after the battle.
	 On this you're probably right. Makes sense that the good stuff would
be protected, and the sensor and commos ake the brunt of it. By the way,
I found the article on EMP munitions on the Infowar page (DAMN good
reading, all of it); If anyone wants a copy, drop me an e-mail.

Ryan
litefoot@feist.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 09:03:29 -0500
From: Ryan Christensen <litefoot@feist.com>
Subject: Re: Value of a credit

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> 
> Marc Miller writes:
> >In 1977, I used $1 per credit. Look what inflation over 20 years has done.
> 
> That seems to make $3 per credit today sound plausible.
> 
> Ryan Christensen writes:
> >       Since a Credit is based on the mentary value of one hour's worth of
>                                        ^^^^^^^
> Is that a word or a mistype? If it is a word, what does it mean?

	It's actually a rather embarassing mistype of "monetary". Don't ask how
it happened.

> 
> >work, why don't we just base it on the minimum wage of the country or
> >whatever? That would give us 1 ImpCr = $4.75 US.
> 
> Close, but in the system I reccomend it is the hourly wage for an unskilled
> laborer _after_ accounting for dependents and taxes. In cultures with
> predominantly single-income families and/or high tax rates, the minimum
> wage could be a number of credits. A credit is what's left over after the
> earner has paid his taxes and alimony ;-).
> 
>       Hans Rancke

	Ok, that makes more sense. 

	BTW, does anyone have rules or guidelines on purchasing lower-tech
items on higher tech worlds? From what I saw (beats me where) on
excghange rates and such, it would be quite advantageous to use lower
tech stuff when possible, as there is quite a saving in constant
currency (CrI) terms. A good example of this would be jump drives: J1
over TL9, and J2 over TL11. There seems to be no real advantage in
buying these drives at a higher TL.

Ryan
litefoot@feist.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 08:46:14 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com>
Subject: Re: Speed, Relativity & such (fwd)

Hi,

Minor corrections.

Forwarded message:

> Subject: Re: Speed, Relativity & such (fwd)
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 00:04:06 PST

> But the whole *point* is that all inertial (ie non-accelerated) frames
> are equal. So the photon that sees the universe as a 2d plane that
> exists for zero time is just as good (or valid) a view as yours. 

What do you mean exists for zero time? At these velocity vectors the
universe's entire lifetime exists in a moment of the photons time frame.

Also, because the photon has no rest mass AND can't go slower than C in the
medium it is traversing as a consequence AND because of its probability
cloud AND the fact the Hamiltonian doesn't collapse until an interaction, the
photon doesn't see the universe at all. From its perspective it IS the
universe.

Photons are not the only particle (bosons or leptons, I know of no hadrons
this is true for) that exhibit this behaviour. Electrons can also exhibit
some strange behaviour as a result of their ability to change orbitals
instantly and the fact that, again, the Hamiltonian doesn't collapse until
an interaction.

> "The objective universe" is not a valid concept. "An objective frame of
> reference" *is* a valid concept, but you have to remember that there
> are other EQUALLY VALID frames.

Or, there are no absolutely valid reference frames, or put another way, all
frames of reference are objective; they are a function of the observer not
the observed - Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle.

The universe is observer dependant.

                                                         Jim Choate

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 11:13:17 -0400
From: Bob Sanders <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: Re: Requst for information

Dear DGP Fan,

As you know, DGP is working on a new sci-fi Role-Playing Game.

We are in the process of constructing our maps of space for the
milieu, and we need your help. I have a special request to make:
I was wondering if you could help us find star data and
astronomical information from the Internet.

WE NEED THE NAMES OF STARS, THEIR LOCATIONS, SPECTRAL TYPES,
OTHER USEFUL DATA ABOUT THEM, AND ANY INFO ON PLANETS KNOWN TO
EXIST. Please either forward this information to me via email, or
let me know how or where I can find it. Any assistance you could
provide would certainly speed up the game's development.

In addition, I need any ASTRONOMICAL LITERATURE you can find on
the Net, including:

     basic astronomy, astronomical phenomena, stars, novae, super
     novae, neutron stars, black holes, nebulae, comets, asteroid
     belts, the moon, planetary rings;

     solar radiation, solar wind;

     equipment used to observe space (space probes, Viking
     modules, Hubble telescope, radio telescopes, sensors, solar
     observation, weather prediction, etc.);

     space technology (shuttles, space taxi, satellites, space
     labs, LEO transports, RAM scoops, etc.).

BIBLIOGRAPHICAL REFERENCES would also be appreciated, such as the
best books on the subject.

FIRE AWAY!

Roger Sanger
dgp@digestgroup.com
Digest Group Publications

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 09:39:54 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Yanks in space!

On Sat, 31 May 1997, Andrew Boulton wrote:

> In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19970530102154.442fe496@mail.hooked.net>
> 
> << Not to sound to jingoistic, or trying to start a flame war, but I haven't
> noticed any Swedish flags on the Moon, and the only man-made object to
> leave the solar system has a US flag decal stuck on it. >>
> 
> Neither of which would have got there without German rocket scientists.

None of whom would have gotten anywhere without a Russian and an American
(Tsioilovsky (sp) and Goddard ;-)

Neither of whom would have gotten anywhere had not some unknown Chinese
millenia ago invented fireworks.  So, after all the flag waving, and
hooferaw, we're back to an Indochinese Imperium ;-) 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: 31 May 1997 17:05:21 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: IGS Updated

I have uploaded an updated version of Imperial Grand Survey (2.1.1d), which
_should_ work OK on Powerbooks.  (Please check this out - I don't have a
Powerbook to test it on.)

For those of you inquiring, IGS is a Macintosh application that maps (and
generates, collapses, and rebuilds) Traveller worlds.  It is (deliberately)
limited to mainworlds - full systems are handled by Metator.  The current
version includes an option for historical data (useful for both TNE
pre-colapse and Milieu 0 pre-contact information).  A variety of languages
and allegiances are supported.

The next version will have the following features:

- - an improved user interface, supporting larger screen sizes
- - the economic etc. stats from Pocket Empires


IGS (and Metator) can be found at
www.interlog.com/~dmci104/GamingClub/Traveller/software.html

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 10:08:58 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: FS statistical impressions

At 02:09 PM 5/30/97 -0500, you wrote:

>Someone else may have pointed this out: it's not a waterworld, but an
>exotic atmosphere.  I _do_ find the prospect of a TL0 impersonal
>bureaucracy a bit odd, though. 

Anybody else remember the story "Memo to Big Chief?"
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
|  Creative Planetologist, THUDDer, 20 year vet  |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
|  "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|  about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|  Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|   -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin"  |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 10:38:56 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: What type B starports can build!

At 07:45 PM 5/31/97 +1200, you wrote:
>I think that Type B starports can build only spacecraft (non jump).  Of
>course they could always just leave that bit out and finish the ship
>somewhere that can install a jump drive.
>

The problem being, how to get your partially finished ship to that Type A
starport...

I've always seen many of the B class Starports as being the near equal of
the As, lacking only the ability to manufacture j-drives.  In many cases,
this might be due to a lack of the neccessary elelments, or a reluctance of
a major ship builder to commit to a shipyard in system.

Whenever I am detailing a large Pop world with a B port, one of the major
questions is always: why aren't they an A?  Some of the answers are
interesting.
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
|  Creative Planetologist, THUDDer, 20 year vet  |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
|  "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|  about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|  Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|   -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin"  |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 10:16:31 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: FS/M0 Data

At 01:58 PM 5/31/97 +0200, Hans wrote:

>Let me repeat the suggestion I came up with after discussing that very
>problem a few weeks ago: Refine (read: change) the definitions a little
>bit:
>
>The TL of a planet indicates the highest TL used by most of its inhabitants.
>Since TLs can differ for different areas this may mean only that the planet
>is very advanced in one limited area: medicine, robotics, environmental
>control, etc.

I still prefer the "highest sustanable TL" model.. Anyone could import
massive amounts of aid and high tech goodies, but without the
infrastructure to support it, it's a false TL.

A simpler solution is to knock the vast majority of TL C+ worlds down to 11
or less.  Do keep a few high TL worlds.. they make for good story telling.
I could, for example, picture a world at TL D, but having no access to
critical starship building materials (lanthanum and zucchi crystals), so
that they are trapped in one system.

>The TL of an interstellar civilization indicates its highest space
>technology level. Thus the RoM may have had Tl 14 weapons and vac suits,
>but they did not have more tha Jump-3 ships. And Sylea may be TL 12 going
>on 13 already in Year 0, but the 3rd Imperium will not reach TL 13 in
>space technology until 300.

For interstellar groupings, I will grant you this.. but it has to be the TL
that can be supported by the industrial and educational segments of the
population.  The late 3rd Imperium had several worlds at TL16, but it
couldn't be said that the Imperium as a whole was able to exploit that
technology.

- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
|  Creative Planetologist, THUDDer, 20 year vet  |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
|  "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|  about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|  Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|   -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin"  |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1391
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Sunday, June 1 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1392



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Criminals are dumb (was: Smart guns)
Re: Hmmmm...Is the truth stranger..
(no subject)
Re: Hmmmm...Is the truth stranger..
Where Is the FFS2 Docs Online?
Re: My Mistake
Re: Speed, Relativity & such (fwd)
Re: Yanks in space!
Re: Where Is the FFS2 Docs Online?
Re: Yanks in space!
RE: Yanks in space!
Re: Sector Analysis
Aslan CharGen
Hi-tech ruins
May THUDDD results - complete version
Re: Hmmmm...Is the truth stranger..
Musings on June THUDDD

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 10:31:11 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Criminals are dumb (was: Smart guns)

At 01:43 PM 5/31/97 +0200, Hans wrote:

>The trouble is that most criminals don't expect to get caught. You can deter
>some people by extra harsh sentenses, of course (reputedly English burglars
>were most reluctant to carry guns on the job as the judges always increased
>sentenses dramatically if a burglar was caught with a gun on him), but the
>people who actually consider the risk of getting caught are deterred by much 
>lesser sentenses. Once a criminal convinces himself that he is not going to 
>get caught, the penalties only matters when he realizes that he was wrong.
>And at that time it's usually a bit late. If you make the prospect of being
>caught more horrible than the prospect of getting killed, you are asking for
>last stands, dead hostages, and dead law enforcement officers.

In California we've had the so-called "three stikes" law in place for just
over a year now.  This law is simple; if you have two prior felony
convictions, and are convicted of any criminal offence, you go to jail for
25-life.  Once the idiots realized that there wouldn't be any more free
rides, early paroles, and plea bargaining, the crime rate dropped like a
rock doing .3c.

I'm good friends with several San Francisco Police officers, and have gone
along on a couple of ride-alongs.  The thing that many people tend to
forget is that most crooks are exceedingly dim.  One night, my friend spots
an old Caddy with a burnt-out tail light.  This is a fix-it ticket, just a
friendly warning to repair the problem.  When we pull the car over, the
driver gets evasive, changes his story, keeps looking at the trunk, tries
to bribe Jim.. in short, does everything in the world to make us suspicious
as hell.  Jim calls for a dog, dog immediately points on the trunk
(probable cause) and a search revels 10kg of cocaine.  Since I was a
witness, I got to testify, and watched a three time loser get life.  If he
had just nodded his head and said "yes sir, no sir, I'll get that fixed,
sir" he would have gotten away.

the morale of the story is, never expect the criminal element to behave
with anything resembling intellegence.. if the were smart, they wouldn't be
criminals...
- --

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
|   "Wide unclasp the tables of their thoughts    |
|  These same thoughts people this little World"  |
|      - inscription on a stained glass window,   |
|        found in the Winchester Mystery House.   |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 12:39:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Hmmmm...Is the truth stranger..

> Date: Fri, 30 May 97 19:29:02 -0500
> From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
> 
> On 05/30/97 at 12:21 PM,  "Peter  H. Brenton"
> <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu> said:
> > My skepticism will end when Boston Edison builds a 300MW power plant
> > which uses Palladium and Water as its consumables.
> 
> No offense, Peter, but my skepticism of "hot" fusion will end when
> *anybody* builds a 300MW power plant using *any* hot fusion technology. 
> ;->

Go outside around noon on a clear day, look up. :)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 17:55:38 -0400
From: sturm <sturm@tiac.net>
Subject: (no subject)

unsubscribe traveller

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 97 16:55:02 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Hmmmm...Is the truth stranger..

On 05/31/97 at 12:39 PM,  Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net> said:

> > No offense, Peter, but my skepticism of "hot" fusion will end when
> > *anybody* builds a 300MW power plant using *any* hot fusion technology. 
> > ;->

> Go outside around noon on a clear day, look up. :)

Ok, anybody but God! ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 17:43:09 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Where Is the FFS2 Docs Online?

At 09:44 AM 5/29/97 -0400, CardSharks@aol.com wrote:
>So why not post or FTP the manuscript so people can look and comment?
>
>Marc

Ok where are the FFS2 docs at? 
Marc Miller has given it the Okie Dokie.
Tell the rest of us "nonplaytesters" where we can obtain them. 
Or is that you are "Chicken" well put on your thick skins then. <G>Humor



- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 17:16:02 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: My Mistake

At 10:16 am 05/30/97 -0400, you wrote:

>> see if my local store still has a copy of it (they did a few weeks ago),
>> and pick it up for you?
>
>Is it still full price? I got FF&S for $5, so I'd hate to pay a lot more 
>for VF. Let me know how much it is.

	I don't remember off hand, but it was around $10-12. They also had a
decent selection of other TNE stuff, so if anybody's interested, email me
and I can make a run down there.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 23:34:30 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Speed, Relativity & such (fwd)

At 08:04 AM 5/31/97 +0000, Leonard wrote:
><snip>
>
>You are suffering from the common delusion that there must be a
>"correct" reference frame. That is, that *one* frame of reference is
>better than the others. 
>
>But the whole *point* is that all inertial (ie non-accelerated) frames
>are equal. So the photon that sees the universe as a 2d plane that
>exists for zero time is just as good (or valid) a view as yours. 
>
>"The objective universe" is not a valid concept. "An objective frame of
>reference" *is* a valid concept, but you have to remember that there
>are other EQUALLY VALID frames.
>
>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>

At this rate, Dr. Who is starting to sound like real science.

Garry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 23:26:29 +0000
From: Garry Ward <Garry.E.Ward@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Yanks in space!

At 05:17 AM 5/31/97 +0000, Glenn wrote:
><snip>
>
>Ouch. For not trying, you do a good job of sounding jingoistic.
>
>I think Anders' point is well taken. There's no reason to believe that 
>the contemporary dominant (domineering?) culture on Earth should be the 
>model for the general case in the future, even if said culture was the 
>one to get into space second. Oh... and land on the moon too. :)
>
>
>

From a historical perspective, the basic post colonial New World cultures
are primarily derived from Spanish/Portugese (Mexico & south), English &
French (US & Canada). There were lots of other cultures (German, Dutch,
Austrian, Italian, etc) in Europe at the time the New World was discovered,
but it was the dominant (domineering) cultures that colored the New World
societies, with the other cultures, at best, creating small pockets within
the New World. 

Since history tends to repeat itself, unless some other countries start
chucking their own people up there, on their own, Yanks in space may be the
picture of the future, for good, bad or indifferent.

Garry

 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 17:44:30 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Where Is the FFS2 Docs Online?

At 05:43 pm 05/31/97 -0500, Sam Thomas wrote:
>At 09:44 AM 5/29/97 -0400, CardSharks@aol.com wrote:
>>So why not post or FTP the manuscript so people can look and comment?
>>
>>Marc
>
>Ok where are the FFS2 docs at? 
>Marc Miller has given it the Okie Dokie.

	Unfortunately, our contract is not with Marc Miller, it's with Imperium
Games. If Imperium Games gives permission for public release, that's one
thing. Now, IG produces Traveller under license from MM, so he's probably
got a major amount of say in what they do. But that doesn't flow down to
our contract.

>Tell the rest of us "nonplaytesters" where we can obtain them. 
>Or is that you are "Chicken" well put on your thick skins then. <G>Humor

	Certainly not afraid of rational, informed, understandable and
constructive criticism ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 17:36:22 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Yanks in space!

At 11:17 pm 05/30/97 -0600, you wrote:
>On 1997-05-30 11:21 thus spake Douglas E. Berry:
>
>>At 10:18 PM 5/30/97 +1200, you wrote:
>>>At 10:54 30/05/97 +0100, Anders Backman wrote:
>>>>I'm not arguing that Traveller should be swedish, just that US culture
>>>>should not be taken as the normal case as it is so way off the average
case
>>>>here on earth.
>>>>
>>>By that measure we should be playing 'Indo-Chinese in Space' :)
>>
>>Not to sound to jingoistic, or trying to start a flame war, but I haven't
>>noticed any Swedish flags on the Moon, and the only man-made object to
>>leave the solar system has a US flag decal stuck on it.
>
>Ouch. For not trying, you do a good job of sounding jingoistic.

	Sometimes a plain statement of fact can sound mighty jingoistic if you're
not careful. 

>I think Anders' point is well taken. There's no reason to believe that 
>the contemporary dominant (domineering?) culture on Earth should be the 
>model for the general case in the future, even if said culture was the 
>one to get into space second. Oh... and land on the moon too. :)

	There's one and only one real-world reason for the Traveller background to
have such a US-centric background ... Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman, Frank
Chadwick, etc., as well as the largest single number of Traveller players
and writers ... are North American residents. Not that this means we have
to continue perpetuating this, mind you, again simply a statement of fact.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 16:55:44 -0700
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Yanks in space!

I don't know, Goddard was a bit behind, but definitely was on the right track...

- ----------
From: 	Andrew Boulton[SMTP:aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk]
Sent: 	Saturday, May 31, 1997 6:27 AM
To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	Re: Yanks in space!

In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19970530102154.442fe496@mail.hooked.net>

<< Not to sound to jingoistic, or trying to start a flame war, but I haven't
noticed any Swedish flags on the Moon, and the only man-made object to
leave the solar system has a US flag decal stuck on it. >>

Neither of which would have got there without German rocket scientists.

    ---------=========oooooooooOOOOOOOOooooooooo=========---------
Andrew M J Boulton                  http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 18:47:48 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@orca.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Sector Analysis

Nice post Sam. The UWP breakdown reinforces one anxiety I had about Milieu
Zero; it's looking too much like TNE. A small pocket empire expanding into
the ruins of the previous Imperium, seeking out advanced relic technology?
It sounds too familiar.

Andrew Vallance posts:

>Remember that the canon that the RoM was tech 12 can simply be viewed as
>the late Imperial belief that they were; one can allow that to be changed a
>little for M:0 without too much difficulty (heavy emphasis on the little).

I appreciate your post Andrew, it was really well written. However, I do
not agree with it. This "little" change completely alters the entire theme
of the M Zero campaign. In particular, with piles of advanced relic
technology waiting for the taking, scientific research and economic
expansion are just not viable. Treasure-hunting would be more
cost-effective. Also, so long as the previous Imperia never reached TL 13
it is reasonable to assume there are still 'virgin' worlds in M Zero;
planets further than jump-3 from any refuelling source which have never
been visited since the time of the Ancients. I want these to exist in my
campaign, but they just aren't plausible if the RoM had even "experimental"
TL 15 ships.

I am not saying such a campaign would be bad, it's just that we already
have such a campaign universe in TNE. I wanted M Zero to be different.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 22:26:34 -0500
From: Christian Razukas <chrisraz@clark.net>
Subject: Aslan CharGen

Here's a suggestion for this summer's Aslan/Vargr Module.

A family generation chart was included in the "Oriental Adventures"
supplement for AD&D.  It was basically for use by Samurai characters.  It
allowed for family lineage to be determined for three generations (i.e.,
number of siblings, sex, birth-order and marital status for the PC and
siblings, father's siblings and for grandfather's (head of clan) siblings).


It also contained an "ancestral history" chart based on an equivalent to
SOC.  The higher a chracter's SOC, the more chances for an intersting
ancestry.  One's family could have ownership of a small farm, small
coporation or a small town, have had a famous general or artisan in its
ranks, be related to the imperial bloodline through distant marriage, or
have betrayed the current rulers in the past, etc....

I believe that a similar system should be developed for the Aslan, given
the similar importance family plays in their society.  I further think it
would aid Aslan roleplaying.

I am using the "Oriental Adventures" table as a springboard for designing
an Aslan Pride (and its relationship to other clans) in detail...hopefully
in a Hypercard stack.

I'll be happy to post the data when completed but really wanted to bring
the idea to the attention of the authors of the new Aslan/Vargr module (Jo
Grant, I think?) as something worth of development.  Of course, any
suggestions, comments and advice are welcome.

- ----
chrisraz@clark.net
"Aiming is not hunting.  And not aiming is not hunting."
Trokh proverb

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 97 23:02:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Hi-tech ruins

  Concerning the debate on barren worlds with non-zero TL:

  Marc suggested that this was a "ruins" or "relic" tech level;
  the tech level of the last society to inhabit that planet.
  This is an interesting idea, but I don't like the idea of
  expressing it the same way as an active society TL.

  Someone else on the list suggested an indication such as
  parenthesizing the TL.  Better, as there's now a visual
  distinction.  But I think I have an even better idea:

  We note the existance of Ancient sites with a note in the
  Remarks column.  Ancient sites are generally _really_
  high-tech ruins.  Let's extend the principle:  An Ancient site
  is "An"; change it to "An" followed by a TL digit: "AnL" is an
  Ancient site with an estimated TL of 21.  Continuing in that
  vein, we have "RMD" as Rule of Man ruins at TL 13, and "ZS9"
  as Ziru Sirka (Vilani Empire) ruins at TL 9.  Similar usages
  can be devised for any other pre-Third Imperium starfaring
  culture; in the early Spinward Marches, one might encounter
  "DaG", pre-Maghiz Darrian ruins at TL 16, or "ZhB", the
  remnants of an early Zhodani colonization attempt that failed,
  but was TL 11.

  Comments?  Flames (to /dev/null, please)?  Discussion?
  Counterproposals?

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  REP..REP..REP... (Frog w/QWK packet stuck in throat)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 20:49:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: May THUDDD results - complete version

                             THUDDD 4: May 1997
                             Exploratory Trader

                              CONTEST RESULTS
                                      
Specifications

   The vessel to be produced is an exploratory trader. The design is
   being commissioned by the Imperial government (through the Ministry of
   Commerce); their intent is that vessels of this class will be
   purchased and operated by megacorporations and possibly smaller
   speculative enterprises. Subsidies are under consideration.
   
   The following requirements must be met:
     * Size: 3000 dt or less
     * Jump: J2 or more
     * Acceleration: 1G or more
       
   The vessel must be capable of:
     * Wilderness refueling (directly or via carried craft)
     * Operation for 1+ year away from starport facilities (repair,
       resupply, recreation, etc.)
     * Landing/retrieving crew and cargo on planetary surfaces (directly
       or via carried craft)
     * Defense against similarly sized TL 11- spacecraft
       
   Defense against relic TL 12+ weaponry should also be considered.
   
   Provision must be made for security of landing parties and the care of
   wounded crew members.
   
   The purpose of this vessel is exploratory trade, well beyond the
   Imperial frontier. As such, normal economic analysis based on
   intra-Imperial trade profitability does not apply well to this vessel.
   However, as with any trader, a higher percentage of hull volume
   devoted to cargo implies higher profits -- if the requirements above
   are also met. The same comments apply to the vessel's price.
   
Winners

   OVERALL DESIGN 
     1 Terrapin Exploratory Merchant Cruiser 
       Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net                2.60
     2 Type 1108 - Exploratory Trader
       Mark Clark clarkm@OIT.EDU                         3.17
     3 Ming Class 2000-ton Exploratory Trader
       Paul Walker tiger@goldinc.com                     4.00

   MOST LIKELY TO USE IN A GAME 
     1 Recollet-class Exploratory Trader
       Roderick Darroch Elliott rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca  3.17
     2 Anderson class exploratory trader
       Nick Munn N.S.Munn@sheffield.ac.uk                3.60
     2 Terrapin Exploratory Merchant Cruiser
       Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net                3.60

   CLOSEST TO DESIGN SPECS
     1 Encounter Class Exploratory Trader
       John Long jlong@wilmington.net                    3.00
     2 Type 1108 - Exploratory Trader
       Mark Clark clarkm@OIT.EDU                         3.50
     3 Terrapin Exploratory Merchant Cruiser 
       Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net                3.60

   MOST EFFICIENT DESIGN
     1 Terrapin Exploratory Merchant Cruiser 
       Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net                2.40
     2 Type 1108 - Exploratory Trader
       Mark Clark clarkm@OIT.EDU                         3.17
     3 Ming Class 2000-ton Exploratory Trader 
       Paul Walker tiger@goldinc.com                     3.40

   MOST UNUSUAL DESIGN 
     1 Ming Class 2000-ton Exploratory Trader 
       Paul Walker tiger@goldinc.com                     2.40
     2 Type 1108 - Exploratory Trader 
       Mark Clark clarkm@OIT.EDU                         3.00
     3 Terrapin Exploratory Merchant Cruiser 
       Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net                3.60

The winning design
==================
                                      
  Terrapin Exploratory Merchant Cruiser
  
   Designer: Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
   Firm: Gridlore Technologies
   System: SSDS/FFS

Tons: 2400 (Cylinder SL)   Volume: 33600 m3       Cost: 912.8974 MCr
Crew: 49                   High/Mid Pass: 10      Low Pass: 30
Cargo: 852 tons            Controls: Std(Bridge)  TL: 12

9 Size                          3 Jump Drive (240 tons/Pc Fuel)
4 Fire Control                  1G Maneuver (Thruster plate, 462 MW)
4x Laser Batteries (3x 95 Mj)   0.9 Power Plant (1057 MW)
(+1) 2-0-0-0                    731.3 Fuel (Scoop 1920, Refine 6)
                                2 Meson Screen (2 MW)
                                6 Sandcasters (180 cans)
1x spacious hangar (90-ton)     1 Nuclear Damper (15 MW)
2x Sick Bay                     10A 5P 4J Sensors
Machine/Electronic Shops        20 Armor, 16 Structure
Laboratory

Crew: 2 Maneuver, 3 Electronics, 4 Engineer, 10 Gunnery, 5 Maintenance,
      12 Ship's Troops, 3 Flight, 1 Medic, 4 Command, 5 Science

Accom: 34 small staterooms, 30 low berths

1x 90 ton "Terrapin Transit" 90t shuttle.

   Inspired by Sir Arameth Gridlore's own legendary travels beyond Sylean
   space, and drawing heavily on his experiences, Gridlore Technologies
   and Trans-C Naval Architects are proud to introduce the -Terrapin-
   Class Exploratory Trader.
   
   The -Terrapin- is an 80m cylinder, flared slightly at the aft for
   better control when wilderness refueling. The ship devotes over a
   third of its gross displacement to cargo storage, enough to prove
   profitable on any run. But there is more to the -Terrapin- than
   carrying freight!
   
   The -Terrapin- is equipped with powerful Quinn-Arturo "Phase III" jump
   drives, allowing jump 3. Standard thrusters grant constant
   acceleration of 1g, and can be overdriven for brief periods if
   necessary. Power is provided by a custom-designed X-tek Fusion plant,
   and is fueled for one year's operation at full load.
   
   The electronics suite has been designed with the idea that most places
   the -Terrapin- travels will not have local travel control. Active EMS
   sensors are accurate out to 10 LS, passive sensors to 5. This allows
   early detection of any threat, to allow the maximum decision time for
   the Captain. Communications are routed through either a .3 Mw maser
   array, or broadcast by the 1 Mw radio system. Defensive EMS systems
   include a standard EMS jammer (120k km radius) and a strong area
   jammer (90k km radius.)
   
   If the worst comes, this turtle has teeth! Mounting twelve Isher
   Artifact L-1013 95 Mj laser turrets, organized into four batteries by
   Navy standard FDC-11A2 master fire direction centers, the ship can
   bring effective fire on its enemies. (Note: no allowance has been made
   for direct turret control. All weapons are operated from the MFC.)
   While these powerful beams slice at your foe, you can feel secure,
   guarded by thick armor, 6 sand casters, a *15 Mw* nuclear damper, and
   a 2 Mw meson screen. It isn't a warship, but the -Terrapin- can
   certainly hold her own in a fight.
   
   Interface operations will normally be carried out be the -Terrapin
   Transit- shuttle, included in the purchase price.

Terrapin Transit Shuttle
- -
Tons: 90 (Wedge AF)       Volume: 1260 m3        Cost: 28.45 MCr
Crew: 2                   High/Mid Pass: 0       Low Pass: 0
Cargo: 67 tons            Controls: Std          TL: 12

7 Size0                        No Jump drive
0 Fire Control                 3 Maneuver (Thruster plate, 51.975 MW)
                               1.6 Power Plant (74 MW)
                               0.8 Fuel (Scoop 36)
                               0 Meson Screen (0 MW)
                               0 Sandcasters (0 cans)
                               0 Nuclear Damper
                               2A 1P 0J Sensors
                               10 Armor, 7 Structure

Crew: 1 Maneuver, 1 Electronics
Accom: Seats Adequate x 55

   The ship has a crew of 49, including a full squad of security
   personnel and berths for a five person research/science section. The
   science section is intended to include such personnel as linguistic
   sophontologists, historians, and others to assist in making contact
   with worlds that may not have seen a Starship since Twilight.
   -Terrapins- have ten small staterooms for passengers. When no
   passengers are boarded, the spare rooms are designed to be used for
   extra berthing space to relieve stress, or as crew recreation
   facilities. Also standard are thirty low passage berths. Workshops are
   provided, capable of fabricating any but the largest, most complex
   parts. Technical specifications are provided in both computer and hard
   format to aid repairs, and most systems having self-diagnostic/repair
   aid programs. A general purpose laboratory can be found on "C" deck.
   This small facility is not designed for in-depth research, but will
   suffice for most inquiries. The ship's sick bay can accommodate up to
   16 patients in a pinch, though 10 is standard.
   
   A word about cost. Many designers prefer to work with modular
   components, accepting "close enough" as a substitute for workmanship,
   and then claim that the savings in cost justifies the act. Don't be
   fooled. When you are 50pc from the nearest help, close enough isn't
   good enough. Trans-C goes to the trouble of designing to the most
   exacting tolerances because we feel your life is worth it. Don't you
   agree?
   
    Design Notes:
    
   I have tried to balance merchant and exploratory missions with the
   Terrapin, and feel that it works well in both roles. The fairly large
   cargo capacity, along with the passenger complement, means that the
   ship is profitable; while the strong sensors and on-board labs make
   the ship a reasonable scout cruiser.
   
   This design used the excellent spreadsheet "ss-v2.xls" I can't
   remember where I found it, but my hat is off to the author, this is
   very easy to use.
   
   This is a ship for adventures. This is the reason behind the large
   cast of scientists and soldiers. You can boldly go where no one has
   gone before (or, at least for 2000 years...) and play a variety of
   adventures; not just merchant, but military, diplomatic, deep space
   fighting..
   
   Hope you enjoy! as always, comments and questions welcome.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 01:25:42 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: Re: Hmmmm...Is the truth stranger..

- ----------
> From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Hmmmm...Is the truth stranger..
> Date: Friday, May 30, 1997 8:29 PM

> For some interesting reading get on the web and search out the works of
> Drs H.E. Puthoff, D. Cole, A. Rueda, & B. Haisch.  

Who have also done some interesting work on gravity and inertia.

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 21:06:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Musings on June THUDDD

I have a somewhat odd idea for the June THUDDD, and would appreciate list
members' reactions.

Thus far, the four THUDDD contests have been number-crunching battles, in
essence; a quest to optimize a set of shipboard components against a set
of somewhat nebulous requirements.  This is a Good Thing in and of itself,
as it

(a) Improves the state of the art in Traveller shipbuilding,
(b) Creates many new ships for use in campaigns, and
(c) Helps expose design-system problems for (we hope) clarification or
    correction.

However, this leaves the THUDDD an exclusively gearhead domain.  While
this is fine as a general rule, I've had the nagging sense that it leaves
something out.

These doubts were crystallized by the THWAP proposal.  A ship design is
just a pile of numbers; to be used in roleplay, the GM and players need to
know a lot more.  Some of this is simple stuff like pictures of the ship,
and deckplans, and so forth; on a deeper level, though, one wants to
convey the *feel* of the ship, what it's like to travel aboard her, what
gives her "personality."  Are the corridors squeaky-clean, wide, and
brightly lit, or dim tunnels of exposed wiring conduits with grating
floors?  What's the messroom like?  The bridge?

The textual portions of past THUDDD entries have touched on questions like
these, but only lightly.  My proposal is that, for June only, this become
the emphasis.  My original thought was that graphical plans and so forth
could be included, but I worry that would again exclude non-gearheads.  So
what I'm proposing is this:

The ship to be produced will be a yacht, purely a pleasure craft for the
absurdly wealthy, with minimal performance, and little or no weaponry.
This is a ship used to flit about civilized space, visiting the yacht
clubs orbiting the snottier worlds of the Imperium. :)  For the use of
those without ship-design inclinations, I myself will provide the stats
for a 'vanilla' yacht which will be acceptable for entry.

The key element in judging entries for this one special THUDDD would be
the descriptive text about the vessel, not to exceed 2000 words total.
Narrative walkthroughs of the vessel, describing the spaces you'd
encounter inside, would be the suggested format.  Tell us about the
gleaming skilak-wood bannisters on the spiral staircase leading up to the
observation bubble.  Show us the captain's suite with its zero-gee canopy
bed.  Lead us onto the Art Deco bridge.  Give us a ship that's *real* to
the players!

So...what do people think?

And, just to avoid panic...July will be back to number-crunching and
laser-counting, I promise. :)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1392
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Sunday, June 1 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1393



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Lasing down jump troops
Re: Where Is the FFS2 Docs Online?
Incredible
Jurassic Park
Starship Conversion
Why use better/worse Tech ?
Starport Question
PE : The New TNS
IG Customer Service: A Laugh!
Re: Hmmmm...Is the truth stranger..
Tech, RoM and M:0 (long, was Re: Sector Analysis)
Re: Yanks in space!
Re: High Tech Ruins

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 01:47:10 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: Re: Lasing down jump troops

- ----------
> From: Tony Zbaraschuk <tonyz@eskimo.com>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Lasing down jump troops
> Date: Thursday, May 29, 1997 12:32 PM
> 
> Actually, I just had an idea for a jump-troop defense.
> 
> Forget stealth.  They're ablating their pods to brake against the
> atmosphere.   This will be visible a continent away.  And they'll
> be on a predictable course.

Just received an email from NasaNews concerning a new type of 
ceramic thermal insulation that allows a reentry vehicle to have
sharp leading edges.  This allows the reentry vehicle to have 
better hypersonic handling and has the added incentive of 
reducing the signature since it isn't ablative.

The sharp leading edge also reduces the plasma shockwave to 
a point where the radio frequency noise may not be impenetrable.

Eric

Here is the article in it's entirety:
- ------------------------------------------------------------------

Jim Cast
Headquarters, Washington, DC                   May 29, 1997
(Phone:  202/358-1779)

David Morse
Ames Research Center, Mountain View, CA
(Phone:  415/604-4724)

RELEASE:  97-113

THERMAL MATERIAL PERFORMS WELL DURING FIRST FLIGHT TEST

     A new thermal protection material designed to prevent 
spacecraft from burning up during reentry into Earth's 
atmosphere performed extremely well during its first flight 
test.  The ultra-high temperature ceramic material may someday 
revolutionize the approach that engineers take to the design 
and protection of aerospace vehicles.

     A large amount of data on the thermal performance of the 
new material was collected on May 21 when a Mk 12A reentry 
vehicle blasted off from Vandenberg Air Force Base, near 
Lompoc, CA, at 4:27 a.m. EDT aboard a U.S. Air Force Minuteman 
III missile.  The reentry vehicle, equipped with a 0.141-inch 
radius nose tip made from the new ceramic material, took an 
approximately 30-minute, 4,200-mile ride.  Once out in space, 
the reentry vehicle was released, returning through Earth's 
atmosphere at blistering speed to a watery impact in the 
Kwajalein missile range of the Pacific Ocean.  The sharp nose 
tip was instrumented with five heat sensing devices designed to 
provide information on how well the new ceramic material stood 
up to the burning temperatures of reentry.  NASA engineers 
report that data was collected right up to the moment of 
splashdown.

     "This was just the first data-gathering flight test for 
this new material," said Joan Salute, project manager for the 
mission located at NASA's Ames Research Center, Mountain View, 
CA.  "However, initial results suggest that it was a complete 
success.  After extensive data analysis, we should have good 
information on the potential of this ultra-high temperature 
ceramic material to support a radical new concept in aerospace 
vehicle design -- the use of hypersonic sharp leading edges."

     This first test flight -- authorized only last December -- 
was accomplished in less than six months at a cost to NASA of 
$1.1 million.  Plans for additional flights currently are under 
discussion.  The potential benefits to be derived from the use 
of sharp leading-edge designs for spacecraft and 
transatmospheric vehicles are tremendous.  Sharp-body designs 
offer reduced drag, thereby providing substantial savings in 
the cost per pound expended to put objects into orbit.  In 
addition, they provide a greatly enhanced lift-to-drag ratio, 
enabling what is called cross-range capability.  This means 
that spacecraft and transatmospheric vehicles can reenter 
Earth's atmosphere from any orbit and land at any location, 
unlike present blunt body vehicles.  Finally, sharp leading 
edges minimize the number of free electrons that interfere with 
radio frequency transmissions and cause the communications 
blackout associated with the reentry of blunt body vehicles.

     The history of leading edge design is instructive.  In the 
1940s, aircraft routinely featured wings with sharp leading 
edges since that configuration was found to reduce drag at 
supersonic velocities (above the speed of sound, Mach 1, 
approximately 740 mph at sea level).  However, with the coming 
of hypersonic flight (Mach 5 and faster) in the 1950s, the 
buildup of heat on the sharp leading edges of vehicle wings was 
so severe that available materials tended to burn up and their 
leading edges became blunted.  Engineers took their cue from 
this natural blunting process in addressing the problem.

     "All along, Mother Nature was trying to tell us how to 
deal with this situation," said Paul Kolodziej, lead engineer 
for the project at Ames.  "Engineers realized that if they 
blunted the leading edge themselves in the design process, this 
would move the shock wave created during hypersonic flight 
forward and out, away from the vehicle, creating an air pocket 
in front of it."  This air absorbs much of the heat associated 
with reentry, preventing the leading edge from becoming so hot 
and melting.  "Because these new ceramic materials operate at 
ultra-high temperatures, we can now build sharp leading edges 
that don't melt during reentry along trajectories such as those 
flown by the Space Shuttle," Kolodziej said.

     Blunt body design remains the norm today.  In fact, it was 
the blunt body concept, originally developed at Ames by the 
late H. Julian Allen, that enabled development of space 
vehicles capable of withstanding the rigors of reentry.  The 
problem is that blunt body vehicles have high drag and are not 
efficient. They therefore require large and expensive 
propulsion systems that impose a severe penalty in terms of 
cost, capability and performance.  Developing an approach that 
permits the safe use of sharp leading-edge configurations for 
vehicles flying at hypersonic speeds holds the promise of 
yielding huge benefits.  The key to achieving that payoff is 
the development of highly efficient thermal protection 
materials like those currently being evaluated by NASA engineers.

     The ultra-high temperature ceramic material that just 
completed its first flight test has already proven out in 
ground-based testing in the arcjet facilities at Ames.  In 
fact, the materials were shown to be very stable at 
temperatures in the range of 1,700 - 2,800 degrees Celsius 
(3,092-5,072 degrees Fahrenheit) in the presence of high-
velocity dissociated air, such as is encountered during 
conditions of reentry.  They also have been shown to be 
resistant to thermal shock and fatigue failure and, hence, 
reliable for repetitive operation and use over multi-mission 
lifecycles.

     The development and testing of the new material is part of 
a joint program among NASA, Sandia National Laboratories and 
the US Air Force called Slender Hypervelocity Aerothermodynamic 
Research Probes, or SHARP.  Additional information about the 
SHARP program can be obtained at the project's Ames web site on 
the Internet at URL: 			

      http://kauai.arc.nasa.gov/projects/sharp/sharp.html

     NASA's participation in the SHARP program is funded by the 
Headquarters Office of Aeronautics and Space Transportation 
Technology.  The objective of the effort is to demonstrate the 
viability of sharp leading edges for space vehicles and 
possible future transatmospheric passenger aircraft that may 
have the capability to fly out of Earth's atmosphere and into 
the fringes of space and back.  The SHARP program is a key 
element supporting NASA's overall mission to expand the 
nation's frontiers and capabilities in the aeronautics and 
space domain.

                  -end-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 23:20:36 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: Where Is the FFS2 Docs Online?

At 05:44 PM 5/31/97 -0600, "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net> wrote:
>>>Snip<<<
>>Ok where are the FFS2 docs at? 
>>Marc Miller has given it the Okie Dokie.
>
>	Unfortunately, our contract is not with Marc Miller, it's with Imperium
>Games. If Imperium Games gives permission for public release, that's one
>thing. Now, IG produces Traveller under license from MM, so he's probably
>got a major amount of say in what they do. But that doesn't flow down to
>our contract.
>

Well this not a problem/issue, I do not believe that MM wanted a "public"
release just a bigger "playtest" group over a longer time period. 

By the way the weekend playtesters did sign a NDA(Non Disclosure
Agreement)? Well I am willing to do the same as they did, I can sign it
with my PGP key. I am sure that others would sign a NDA too. 

By the way, how many of weekend playtesters were there? Also would they
identify themselves, one already has due to oversight.<G>"Humor!" I am not
asking you or Guy to do this, just that those that participated to raise
there hand, so that the rest of list(s) can ask them questions about it,
and their impressions of the product. If IG does not want this to happen
then it may not bode well for the product in the long run.

From your statement it would appear that MM does not "call the Ball" on
release of products as IG has most prominently stated here and elsewhere.
Hmmmm. Time will tell I guess.

>>Tell the rest of us "nonplaytesters" where we can obtain them. 
>>Or is that you are "Chicken" well put on your thick skins then. <G>Humor
>
>	Certainly not afraid of rational, informed, understandable and
>constructive criticism ...

Ok defing the above in "broad terms" as late I have not seen much of it
here on the TML.<G>"Humor!Satire!"


- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:11:49 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Incredible

Babylon 5...that show is just incredible.  Awesome show tonight.

Normally, I'd have more to say, but I'm just stunned at how much I 
like that show.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:11:48 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Jurassic Park

I saw The Lost World tonight.  It's one of the better amusement park 
movies that have come out lately.

With all the high tech equipment, it reminded me of IISS survey 
mission gone south.  I could definitely see a couple of Scout 
characters running around from those big dinos and screaming for the 
Lab ship's launch to come get them on some god forsaken planet.

I guess most people just watched the movie while I thought about 
Traveller.

Kenneth.
     one obsessed fan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 00:55:24 -0500
From: Alex Rebsch <grazzit@flash.net>
Subject: Starship Conversion

Well I'm looking for starship conversion rules for MT and TNE. I've already received rules for converting High Guard ships to T4 but it seems to be very different from all the MT ships stats that I've seen. Also I wanted to know if anybody has the same kind of thing for TNE. I'm looking for this because there are lots of ships in these two formats out there on the net but are really unusable for me. If anybody has some info let me know.


Alex



E=Mail:	grazzit @flash.net


Home
Page:<underline><color><param>0000,0000,ffff</param>	http://www.flash.net/~grazzit/traveller.html</color></underline>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 14:24:34 -0700
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@zed.com.au>
Subject: Why use better/worse Tech ?

Brody, then "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>, wrote 
> Subject: Re: What type B starports can build!
> 
> At 07:45 PM 5/31/97 +1200, you wrote:
> >I think that Type B starports can build only spacecraft (non jump).  Of
> >course they could always just leave that bit out and finish the ship
> >somewhere that can install a jump drive.
> >
> 
> The problem being, how to get your partially finished ship to that Type A
> starport...
> 

Easy. You get a bigger starship and carry it as cargo, at the ruling freight
rate. Given non-military spaceships tend to cost about MCr0.2 per displacement
ton, this is easily profitable, assuming a cheaper cost to build on lo-tech
worlds in Imperial Credits. Now, the beta T4 TTA starship construction rules
that Guy "Wildstar" Garnett has written strongly imply you can retrofit a
Lanthanum jump grid onto a non-starship. How difficult is this ? I dont know.
You could justify it as anything from a Easy to an Impossible task ...
Naval Architect would be the appropriate skill I think, and use of major 
computing power would probably be a prerequisite.

> I've always seen many of the B class Starports as being the near equal of
> the As, lacking only the ability to manufacture j-drives.  In many cases,
> this might be due to a lack of the neccessary elelments, or a reluctance of
> a major ship builder to commit to a shipyard in system.
> 

Elements can be imported, assuming an interstellar economy.

The point about "we could, we just didnt see the need" is valid. Of course,
if the starship production facility down the way got raided/nuked/whatever,
you might embark on a crash program to build a starship production facility.

I think Type B starports should be able *limited* production of starships,
up to about 1000 displacement tons.

Of course, allowing this really screws the idea of the Long Night *sigh*
, as TL9 worlds with B starports could have kept things going to some
degree - 100t scouts and 200t Free Traders are enough to do a lot with.
I have problems with the Long NIght anyway ... I mean the model seems to
have been the fall of the Roman Empire (centralized society overthrown
by more productive but administrativly challenged barbarians), but in
that case it should have collapsed faster (if it lasted 400 years, why
did it fall ?) or been under for less time (ROM achived TL12 ... TL9
is enough for interstellar society, as that is when you have contra-gravity
and the jump drive).

Honestly, I think the Long Night shouldnt have been as long, or as dark -
more a case of a huge number of squabbling kingdoms, but that none
the less retains a technology level enough to build starships and anti-
gravity.

> Whenever I am detailing a large Pop world with a B port, one of the major
> questions is always: why aren't they an A?  Some of the answers are
> interesting.
> - --

Yup. Agreed.

Now, the general issue of imported technology.

Striker got it right, I think. Imported technology has twice the maintainence
demand, and needs 20% of import price per year for spare parts. Therefore,
over (say) ten years you are going to pay a *lot* of hard currency for
that imported equipment.

On the other hand, if it lets you do things you otherwise cant, then it 
could be worthwhile. For military equipment, a small amount of high-tech
can go a long way - a handful of TL8 Stinger missiles forced the TL7
Soviet Air Force away from a close ground support in the Afghan War. 

Purchasing lower technology can make sense as well. World A has a hi-tech
manufacturing base. World B has a lower technology industrial base. 
World B will therefore have to sell stuff to world A at a discount, in 
order to have world A's currency with which to buy neat stuff. World A
can therefore have more OK-if-not-neat stuff than it could have built
using it's own resources.

Striker puts currency values at 0.1(TL-7), plus 0.2 if Starport A, 0.15
if starport B, 0.1 is Starport C and plus 0.05 if Starport D (although
this breaks down at TL7 and lower).

Note that the Millieau Zero Sylean Credit has a value of 0.7 under this,
so multiply everything by 1.43 to make the Sylean Credit it's theoretical
value of one.

One thing this does (when you consider starships are built in local credits,
but earn income in Imperial credits) is that the cost of shipping in
Imperial Credits goes down over time, because TL9 still does the job with
starships (maybe with retrofitted TL12 maneuver drives - some worlds are
*so* unreasonable when it comes to using spewing out radioactive waste as
reaction mass).

As to the issue of building lower-tech stuff at higher tech levels, I'd say
that it can be done, and results in equipment with higher reliability
and thus lower maintainence costs. But it's probably easier just to import
it from somewhere else, and sell them hi-tech goods in exchange.

Ian Whitcurch

PS Anyone got any thoughts about Labour Law in the Imperium ? I mean, the
dividing line between slavery (which the Imperium does not allow) and
long-term non-breakable contracts is pretty vague ...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 04:33:07 -0400
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Starport Question

In the FS data, I notice several unpopulated worlds with "A" starports
(Muun, Core 2223, A866000-0, is an example).

What's the deal here?  Why would a place like that need a starport?

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 20:21:15 +1000
From: Darryl Adams <dadams@tig.com.au>
Subject: PE : The New TNS

Ok guys. An idea that may be flame bait, but here goes anyway.

Given that The Traveller News Service is a weekly service produced by
TAS, and given that Pocket Empires serves a good framework for both a
PBEM game and the History of the Imperium, why not set up an "OFFICIAL"
PE game, with the turns sent to IG as the "OFFICIAL" history of the
Imperium (much alike the HIGW [?sp].

As long as we keep to canon (ie , the Imperial Sucession et al) we can
supply this data to JTAS and the IG web page as a  background source for
Traveller fans ("I got the latest dispact from TNS! The Imperiuam has
just declared war on us!!!)

Darryl

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Jun 97 07:03:22 -0400
From: FKiesche@concentric.net
Subject: IG Customer Service: A Laugh!

Greetings:

I hate to stir a pot...but I'm amused by the thought of IG customer 
service calling customers (randomly)?

I've had a continuing problem with IG and their shipment of orders. Under 
the "old management" I was charged way in advance for items not ready to 
be shipped. It took the "new management" three months (and many faxes, 
e-mail messages and telephone calls) to reverse this.

Then the "new management" announced the internet order plan. "We have 
changed" they stated. "We will ship your items within three days of 
receipt from the printer" they sang. I was lured in again.

I got the ref's screen, no problem. I must admit that Pocket Empires 
arrived as advertised.

However, it took me two months of phone calls and e-mail messages to get 
them to send me Emperor's Arsenal (which I had pre-ordered when the 
Internet savings plan was announced). And the pattern of messages was not 
all encouraging. I would call, leave my work and home numbers, indicate 
what times I was at each place. I would always get a call at home, when I 
was not there! E-mail would be answered slowly, if at all, and usually 
would require a follow up in order to get a clear reply.

On Journal 26, I saw messages on TML indicating the folks had seen it. I 
had not received my subscription copy. I contacted IG, sent a copy of my 
order confirmation showing that I was a subscriber. About a week later I 
got a e-mail indicating that they had systems problems. I sent another 
e-mail, asking if I would get my copy. About a week later I got an e-mail 
indicating that new copies would be sent out "soon". Here it is, about 
another week later, and still not JTAS#26.

I have read with amusement the latest missive from IG on the web page. 
The deluxe rulebook is delayed--fine, if it means they do a good job, all 
the better. A massive spurt of mailings on May 31 to catch up...well, I 
remain skeptical. I just **know** that my shipment of these items (again, 
I pre-ordered them all when the plan first went into effect) will get 
screwed up somehow!

I am not a newcomer to the world of gaming. I have bought and played and 
run RPG's and other games since 1977. I've dealt with many small 
companies, but this one is taking the cake on a record of screwed-up 
orders and customer relations! The design work--especially that by people 
who also participate on this list--has been good to excellent. If only 
the rest of that company was also showing a comparable improvement!

I'm keeping the faith. I bought several copies of the rulebook. I have 
bought all the products published so far. Heck, I even boght the BITS 
published items (and excellent they are!). I subscribe to the Sword of 
the Knight Publications 'zine. I've got a copy of the Deluxe book 
pre-ordered and I'll even buy the "new" aliens book and FS/MO book--just 
to keep supporting a company that does not seem to give a damn if I exist 
or not!

I am a patient man. I do not like to complain, especially about something 
that is not that important in the larger scheme of my life. However, I 
should also not have to chase down my orders time after time while at the 
same time getting letters in the mail telling me how much **better** this 
company has become. It would be nicer if reality caught up with the 
advertising copy!

In grumpiness, probably because it is a rainy Sunday...



Frederick Paul Kiesche III
(FKiesche@concentric.net)
(Traveller since 1977!)

"He asked again, saying 'Why did you come here? Are you just here to 
study Japanese? Is Hogoji just a language school to you?' He's such a 
sincere guy...

"...I looked at Koji and told him pointedly, 'That's right. I have 
absolutely no interest in Zen at all.' He gaped at me. 'I came here 
merely to study Japanese for free. In zazen I review vacabulary.' I 
started listing the words he had taught me in the first week and Koji was 
on the ground clutching his sides. I even got a reaction from Maku, who 
smiled. I was pleased and dried another dish."

- --Thank You and OK!--An American Zen Failure in Japan (Robert Chadwick)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 23:27:52 +1200
From: Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Hmmmm...Is the truth stranger..

>Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 12:39:07 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
>Subject: Re: Hmmmm...Is the truth stranger..

>>Date: Fri, 30 May 97 19:29:02 -0500
>>From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)

>>On 05/30/97 at 12:21 PM,  "Peter  H. Brenton"
>><pete@cummings.uchicago.edu> said:
>>>My skepticism will end when Boston Edison builds a 300MW power plant
>>>which uses Palladium and Water as its consumables.

>>No offense, Peter, but my skepticism of "hot" fusion will end when
>>*anybody* builds a 300MW power plant using *any* hot fusion technology. 
>> ;->

>Go outside around noon on a clear day, look up. :)

Hows about:
"builds a 300MW power plant you can live in the same city as...."

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
"Baby, Mother, Hospital, Scissors, Creature, Judgment, Butcher, Engineer"
      -:  OMD, 19-2-1983
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 23:27:42 +1200
From: Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Tech, RoM and M:0 (long, was Re: Sector Analysis)

>Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 18:47:48 -0800
>From: Richard Hough <rdhough@orca.bc.ca>
>Subject: Re: Sector Analysis

>Nice post Sam. The UWP breakdown reinforces one anxiety I had about Milieu
>Zero; it's looking too much like TNE. A small pocket empire expanding into
>the ruins of the previous Imperium, seeking out advanced relic technology?
>It sounds too familiar.

>Andrew Vallance posts:

>>Remember that the canon that the RoM was tech 12 can simply be viewed as
>>the late Imperial belief that they were; one can allow that to be changed a
>>little for M:0 without too much difficulty (heavy emphasis on the little).

>I appreciate your post Andrew, it was really well written. However, I do
>not agree with it. This "little" change completely alters the entire theme
>of the M Zero campaign. In particular, with piles of advanced relic
>technology waiting for the taking, scientific research and economic
>expansion are just not viable. Treasure-hunting would be more
>cost-effective. Also, so long as the previous Imperia never reached TL 13
>it is reasonable to assume there are still 'virgin' worlds in M Zero;
>planets further than jump-3 from any refuelling source which have never
>been visited since the time of the Ancients. I want these to exist in my
>campaign, but they just aren't plausible if the RoM had even "experimental"
>TL 15 ships.

>I am not saying such a campaign would be bad, it's just that we already
>have such a campaign universe in TNE. I wanted M Zero to be different.

I disagree. The important thing to remember is the time differential. TNE is
set less than 100 years after a catastrophic collapse, M:0 is set 1700 years
after
a gradual collapse; a vital difference. After 1700 just how many RoM relics
are there going to be left? not a heck of a lot. Of those the vast majority are
going to be just fragments or parts; of the whole ones, the vast majority are
going to broken and beyond repair or analysis; of the remainder, most will still
be beyond repair but you could use them as a design base. The number of
functioning or repairable RoM artifacts would be almost infinitesimal, the
average
PC should be lucky to run across more than a couple in their entire lives. They
should be treated in the same manner as ancient artifacts, a once in a lifetime
discovery (insert Andrew's impassioned plee that RoM does not suffer from
the same overuse that the Ancients have). In TNE the technology did not just
collapse, it actively turned against its users, people would have just stopped
using the devices out of fear; with the RoM, the remaining technological
devices would have continued to be used until they broke and became
unrepairable; and 1700 years is more than enough time for all but a very small
handful to have reached that state. So of the relics that might be found,
some can
be useful for research, pointing the way; but they are only an adjunct to
it. They
can not in themsevles be very useful; and most importantly, the higher the tech,
the less useful they are (the "how the hell did they do that" syndrome). You
need
a basic understanding of the technology that created a device to be able to
analyse it. In TNE, the basic understanding of high tech is still there; in
M:0, it
isn't.

I think its important to look at what I think happened after the fall of the
Ziru
Sirka. I don't think most Vilani worlds would have significantly advanced during
the RoM; most would still be at TL 11 max, the RoM just did not have enough time
to overcome 5000 years of technological stagnation. This is important, since M:0
is set firmly in the middle of the former Ziru Sirka, so the vast majority
of relics
are actually going to be TL 11, with a sprinkling of TL 12. However if one looks
at what might have happened in the former Terran Confederation, a different
possiblity emerges. Here, I just can't see technological advancement stopping;
slowing down yes, there just wouldn't be the resources available that were
there during the Interstellar Wars (the threat is lesser [but not gone] and so
many resources have to be diverted into trying to stem the inevitable collapse),
but it would likely still continue. So I can see the RoM pushing to the
limits of
TL 12 and even starting into TL 13 _in some fields_ and _in some locations_.
These two factors are important; it does not mean that the RoM reached TL 13
across the board and it would restrict the advanced tech to specific areas
(namely,
the former Terran Confederation). I see no problem with the RoM having
developed TL 13 prototype gauss rifles, after all they are just prototypes,
something that could be done at the upper end of the TL 12 range. I'd even
go as far to say that they could have entered production. An important clue here
is that Cleon forbade (note not discouraged but forbade) expansion to rimward
beyond Massila, exactly where I would postulate the higher tech RoM worlds
would have been; and a major focus of the Imperium's early research _is_ to
recover former RoM technology (not artifacts, but the technology that created
them). Also please note, I am not postulating experimental RoM TL 15, I am
postualting experimental TL 13 with some TL 14 and 15 _theoretical_ studies.
Working out what might be possible at TL 14 or 15 is very different from being
able to actually do it.

As to the virgin worlds, it has nothing to do with jump technology. I can
build a
jump 6 capable ship at TL 9 if I want, it just takes 6 weeks to get there;
virgin
worlds will exist because the RoM did not have the resources and the Ziru
Sirka not the will to exploit them (both facts undoubtedly true) Even with
jump 4
capability an isolated world does not become a significantly more attractive
proposition for development; it's still just about as hard to get to, just
you can get
there a week sooner (not a major factor in colonisation or exploitation). If you
want worlds which have not been visited since the Ancients, just put them there,
it's irrelevant if the RoM (or anybody) had better than jump 3, even with jump 1
you can still visit them.


So lets look at the big picture of what I see M:0 being 'like'. Firstly,
there will be
a lot of pocket empires. Very few would be hold overs from the RoM, but Cleon
did not start the recovery, he just exploited it. By the time the Imperium
started
expanding, the recovery was well underway, a lot of worlds had already
regained the stars. Also remember that the Scouts and traders preceed the
Imperium in a wave front some 50 to 100 years ahead of it, actively encouraging
a return to the stars. So, there's a lot of pocket empires, I'd expect that.
But they
are not scrabbling about in ruins looking for artifacts, because: one, the
artifacts
aren't there; two, the cost of recovering the tech base is prohibitive; and
three, its
only TL 11 in the area concerned.

Secondly, the Imperium is not expanding into a primitive wilderness, its
expanding
into a fairly vibrant interstellar culture, even if its creating that
culture itself. A lot of
worlds will have recovered to between TL 4 and 8, probably the majority, with a
good number higher (TL 9 to 11). But very few will have got much beyond that,
TL 12 is possible, but anything over that will need a good explanation (yes,
I agree
in FS there are way too many high tech worlds). I'd put maybe four or five high
tech (12+) worlds per sector; and I'd put good limitations on them (stagnant
culture,
uplifted by the Imperium etc.).

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
"Baby, Mother, Hospital, Scissors, Creature, Judgment, Butcher, Engineer"
      -:  OMD, 19-2-1983
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 13:01:20 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Yanks in space!

>I think Anders' point is well taken. There's no reason to believe that
>the contemporary dominant (domineering?) culture on Earth should be the
>model for the general case in the future, even if said culture was the
>one to get into space second. Oh... and land on the moon too. :)

One of the reasons I liked 2300 was the French Empire ;-)

- --------------- Dom Mooney (dom@cybergoths.u-net.com)---------------
"The fall of Empire, Gentlemen, is a massive thing, however, and not easily
fought. It is dictated by a rising bureaucracy, a receding initiative, a
freezing of caste, a damming of curiousity - a hundred other factors."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Hari Seldon - Azimov's "Foundation"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 13:20:35 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: High Tech Ruins

jeff.zeitlin wrote:

>Someone else on the list suggested an indication such as
>  parenthesizing the TL.  Better, as there's now a visual
>  distinction.  But I think I have an even better idea:
>
>  We note the existance of Ancient sites with a note in the
>  Remarks column.  Ancient sites are generally _really_
>  high-tech ruins.  Let's extend the principle:  An Ancient site
>  is "An"; change it to "An" followed by a TL digit: "AnL" is an
>  Ancient site with an estimated TL of 21.  Continuing in that
>  vein, we have "RMD" as Rule of Man ruins at TL 13, and "ZS9"
>  as Ziru Sirka (Vilani Empire) ruins at TL 9.  Similar usages
>  can be devised for any other pre-Third Imperium starfaring
>  culture; in the early Spinward Marches, one might encounter
>  "DaG", pre-Maghiz Darrian ruins at TL 16, or "ZhB", the
>  remnants of an early Zhodani colonization attempt that failed,
>  but was TL 11.
>
>  Comments?  Flames (to /dev/null, please)?  Discussion?
>  Counterproposals?

Yes. Much better than the parenthesizing. However, remember this will add a
lot of work to those people working on the FS data. And you could get some
interesting clashes between ZSn and RMn codes :-)



- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Feel the guilt / like shackles round your feet / like a halo in reverse"
                     Depeche Mode "Violator"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1393
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Sunday, June 1 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1394



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: First thoughts on Marc's FS Data
Re: FS Statistical impressions
Re: FS/M0 Data
Re: Value of a credit
Re: High-tech ruins
Re: Incredible
Re: Where Is the FFS2 Docs Online?
[TML] combat question
Re: Binary Stars
Re: [TML] combat question
Re: High Tech Ruins
Re: Musings on June THUDDD
Re: FS/M0 Data
Re: Where Is the FFS2 Docs Online?
Re: Musings on June THUDDD
Re: Musings on June THUDDD
Re: Criminals are dumb (was: Smart guns)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 12:44:44 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: First thoughts on Marc's FS Data

Garry Ward wrote:

>I believe that the Vilani were limited to worlds that could be reached by
>Jump-2; anything that could not be reach by J2 from some side was bypassed.
>
>ROM, I if I remember correctly, had J3, so anything with a j4 or larger gap
>was also off limits.

I recently pasted together sector maps of the Spinward Marches, Deneb,
Riftspan, and Corridor. I then highlighted the various worlds based on how
far away their neighbours were. The interesting result was that there were
very few worlds (say less than twenty five negecting those in the Great
Rift) in all four sectors that a Jump 2 drive would not reach. I would
expect the Imperial Core to have even less.

IMO J3 and J4 convey more of a military or commercial advantage in speed
and bypassing choke points.

Now, the new, virgin worlds *are* out there, but only when the 3I gets past
Deneb and into the Marches. And a lot of those would have been touched by
the Vargr, especially in Deneb and Corridor. And the expansion into that
reason is explosive.

Dom

- --------------- Dom Mooney (dom@cybergoths.u-net.com)---------------
"The fall of Empire, Gentlemen, is a massive thing, however, and not easily
fought. It is dictated by a rising bureaucracy, a receding initiative, a
freezing of caste, a damming of curiousity - a hundred other factors."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Hari Seldon - Azimov's "Foundation"~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 01:33:48 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: FS Statistical impressions

At 17:34 30/05/97 -0700, John Snead wrote:
>
>Also (being even more heretical here) the Long Night lasted 1776 *years*!
>During this time the Darrians went from TL 3 (with TL 12 Solomani input)
>to TL 16.  Why can't some other pocket empire have hit TL 13+.  Some may
>have collapsed, some may still be at TL 13 or even 14. 

I've always tended to agree with this, but I went along with it for the
feel. Unfortunatly in the New Order a lot of this feel has gone, and there
seems to be a plethora of TL9+ worlds, all at the same time.

>I've never understood why everyone seems to think that the Long Night
>means that technological progress has stopped.  It was a severe economic
>collapse, and lots of marginal worlds died out, but 1776 years is a long
>time for easily habitable, high tech, worlds like Terra to just sit around
>and stagnate.  Clearly, none of this technology became widespread, but
>that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. 
>
>Comments?

If that's the case, then how in all creation did the TL12 Sylean Federation
get to be the centre and prime mover in the new empire? One High population
TL14 system in the central region of the Empire(s) would put an end to
Sylea's Imperial ambitions real quick.

>-John Snead jsnead@netcom.com


R. Boleyn
 <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
TNE to the core

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 15:59:09 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: FS/M0 Data

Douglas E. Berry writes:
>[Hans suggested that]
>>The TL of a planet indicates the highest TL used by most of its inhabitants.
>>Since TLs can differ for different areas this may mean only that the planet
>>is very advanced in one limited area: medicine, robotics, environmental
>>control, etc.
> 
>I still prefer the "highest sustainable TL" model.. Anyone could import
>massive amounts of aid and high tech goodies, but without the
>infrastructure to support it, it's a false TL.

But how do you then explain all those low-population worlds with Industrial+
technology? It takes a lot of people to run an industrial society. I suppose
that at higher TLs you may be able to have a handful of people direct a lot
of robotic manufacturing equipment, but that's not the impression I get of
the way things are done in the Imperium. And in any case, a medium-tech 
society simply cannot be run without a lot of people. With my definition
the explanation is simple: They make enough interstellar credit to buy what
they need from elsewhere. A typical example would be a mining colony that
didn't produce _anything_ except processed ore of some kind. By your
definition they'd be TL 0 (or perhaps TL 1). But what's interesting to
players and referees (and to scouts and tourists, for that matter) is the
level of technology they are likely to meet when they go to the planet in
question, not how the people there got the stuff. 

>>The TL of an interstellar civilization indicates its highest space
>>technology level. Thus the RoM may have had Tl 14 weapons and vac suits,
>>but they did not have more tha Jump-3 ships. And Sylea may be TL 12 going
>>on 13 already in Year 0, but the 3rd Imperium will not reach TL 13 in
>>space technology until 300.
> 
>For interstellar groupings, I will grant you this. but it has to be the TL
>that can be supported by the industrial and educational segments of the
>population.  The late 3rd Imperium had several worlds at TL16, but it
>couldn't be said that the Imperium as a whole was able to exploit that
>technology.

The Imperium as a whole had an _average_ TL of 12 in 1100, a century after
they were said to have reached TL 15. Obviously the average TL is a better
measure of what the Imperium as a whole is able to exploit. So the overall
TL is not the same as the average. Also, one single high-population world
with an above-the-norm TL can produce enough ships to supply a significant 
part of the Imperial navy. (Not a huge part, but even 1 ship in a 1000 would 
be of significance, if it was of a higher jump than the rest (Of course, 
thanks to the strange fact that controlled jump-6+ is unavailable until TL
21 or thereabouts, there is not much difference between TL 15 and TL 16 
space technology, so that particular point is moot in the case of your 
example. But imagine the impact a single high-population TL 15 world would 
do to the speed of information flow in the Year 0. Such a world could supply 
at least 100,000 jump-6 couriers.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 16:12:15 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Value of a credit

Ryan Christensen writes:
>	BTW, does anyone have rules or guidelines on purchasing lower-tech
>items on higher tech worlds? From what I saw (beats me where) on
>excghange rates and such, it would be quite advantageous to use lower
>tech stuff when possible, as there is quite a saving in constant
>currency (CrI) terms. A good example of this would be jump drives: J1
>over TL9, and J2 over TL11. There seems to be no real advantage in
>buying these drives at a higher TL.

If the price in Planet A credits on Planet B plus the cost of transport is 
less than the price of manufacturing it locally on planet A, then Planet A 
will buy the stuff on Planet B _provided_ it has anything to pay with. The 
last bit is often the crucial problem. 


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 16:26:32 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: High-tech ruins

Jeff Zeitlin writes:
>..."AnL" is an Ancient site with an estimated TL of 21.  Continuing in that
>vein, we have "RMD" as Rule of Man ruins at TL 13, and "ZS9" as Ziru Sirka 
>(Vilani Empire) ruins at TL 9.  Similar usages can be devised for any other 
>pre-Third Imperium starfaring culture; in the early Spinward Marches, one 
>might encounter "DaG", pre-Maghiz Darrian ruins at TL 16, or "ZhB", the
>remnants of an early Zhodani colonization attempt that failed, but was TL 11.
> 
>Comments?

I usually don't do 'Me too' posts, but that's a very good idea and on I can't
think of any way to improve. No, wait: Remember that a couple of millenia is
a long time and that you can easily have more than one group of settlers on
a world (For example, in my work to detail the Spinward Marches for Milieu 0
I noticed two different references to Algine: One said that there were 
humans on Algine in -1511, another that Algine was colonized by Solomani
around -1000. The explanation is, of course, that Algine must have been 
settled twice, the first time a Ziru Sirka colony planeted around the same 
time as the one on Vanejen). So a planet could easily have more than one
set of relics (Come to that, Darrian must have both AnL and DaG notations).


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 08:30:07 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Incredible

Kenneth Bearden wrote:
> 
> Babylon 5...that show is just incredible.  Awesome show tonight.
> 
> Normally, I'd have more to say, but I'm just stunned at how much I
> like that show.
> 
> Kenneth.
Yup. Tuned in to that one yesterday myself. I don't get to see that
show as often as I'd like, but last night was great!
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 09:31:47 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Where Is the FFS2 Docs Online?

At 11:20 pm 05/31/97 -0500, Sam Thomas wrote:
>At 05:44 PM 5/31/97 -0600, "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net> wrote:
>>>>Snip<<<
>>>Ok where are the FFS2 docs at? 
>>>Marc Miller has given it the Okie Dokie.
>>
>>	Unfortunately, our contract is not with Marc Miller, it's with Imperium
>>Games. If Imperium Games gives permission for public release, that's one
>>thing. Now, IG produces Traveller under license from MM, so he's probably
>>got a major amount of say in what they do. But that doesn't flow down to
>>our contract.
>>
>
>Well this not a problem/issue, I do not believe that MM wanted a "public"
>release just a bigger "playtest" group over a longer time period. 

	It's not a "problem/issue" except that until IG tells me, I cannot answer
your question above "where are the FFS2 docs at." Just because MM says
"Okie Dokie" doesn't cut it with legal considerations. No matter how
"restricted" we make the bigger playtest group, it would still be bigger
than what we were originally given permission to do.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 12:00:10 -0400
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: [TML] combat question

We played another round of my M0 campaign last night.  The PCs spent an
evening trying to retain control of their ship from pirates who'd come
aboard as passengers.  During one gunfight in the passenger lounge, where
most of the weapons used were snub pistols of one sort or another or SMGs.
At fight's end, one PC with an SMG remained unscathed.  The other 6
participants were all hors de combat with a single characteristic (STR or
DEX or END) driven to zero from a first hit on them.  Another PC convinced
a captured pirate with First Aid-2 skill to tend to the 6 wounded, then as
each woke up, the pirates were secured and the PCs were given pats on the
back and drinks from the bar. In gun battles elsewhere aboard, a total of 4
others were knocked out in the same way (i.e., one characteristic driven to
zero) and one (pirate) was killed by a spectacular success (I figured 4
ones on the dice merited SOMEthing!)

From earlier posters, I understand the our concept of bloody fire combat
is, perhaps, over-exaggerated - police reports and all seem to indicate a
lower death rate.  Last night's battles seemed TOO nonlethal though - by
next day, ALL of the PCs and all but one of the NPCs were hobbling around
with various assorted bullet holes in them and, with the exception of the
one, nobody's life was even threatened...

I'm really not as bloodthirsty as I sound!  I'm just wondering whether I'm
doing something wrong with fire combat...



- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 09:55:36 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Binary Stars

>I was referring to systems -- "with worlds" -- not lone stars or binaries 
>& trinaries without worlds. I understand that due to tidal forces or 
>something, planetesimals cannot form in stable orbits around multiple 
>star systems, so the commonality of *worlds* with multiple stars in the 
>system should be far less than the solitary case, like the solar system.

It's not particularly well-understood. Orbits are dynamically stable if
(near a close binary) they're 10 times further from both stars than the stars are from each other,
or (in a wide binary) they're 10 times closer to their primary than the secodnary
star is. (People used to think it was 4x, but that's changing.) Whether 
stars can *form* in such a system is unclear...A really wide binary
probably wouldn't mess up the formation process...but it's not clear what a very
close binary would do. To be hoenst, (a) we don't even understand *how*
binary stars form, and (b) we don't undertsnd how planets form - as a case
in point, if 5 years ago a Traveller product had a gas giant ina 0.05AU orbit
I would have laughed at it...but then people found 51Peg.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 10:19:49 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: [TML] combat question

At 12:00 PM 6/1/97 -0400, Bill Rutherford wrote:

<description of a fun fire-fight snipped>

>>From earlier posters, I understand the our concept of bloody fire combat
>is, perhaps, over-exaggerated - police reports and all seem to indicate a
>lower death rate.  Last night's battles seemed TOO nonlethal though - by
>next day, ALL of the PCs and all but one of the NPCs were hobbling around
>with various assorted bullet holes in them and, with the exception of the
>one, nobody's life was even threatened...

Well, since just about everybody was knocked cold, it doesn't seem too bad
to me, just remember to inforce the "aches and pains" until their wounds
heal..

A couple of questions:

Did anybody try for extra damage hits?

How did you handle autofire from the SMG?

How much time passed between a character being wounded and his being given
first aid?

- --

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
|   "Wide unclasp the tables of their thoughts    |
|  These same thoughts people this little World"  |
|      - inscription on a stained glass window,   |
|        found in the Winchester Mystery House.   |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 09:59:49 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: High Tech Ruins

At 01:20 PM 6/1/97 +0100, Dom Mooney wrote:
>jeff.zeitlin wrote:

>>  We note the existance of Ancient sites with a note in the
>>  Remarks column.  Ancient sites are generally _really_
>>  high-tech ruins.  Let's extend the principle:  An Ancient site
>>  is "An"; change it to "An" followed by a TL digit: "AnL" is an
>>  Ancient site with an estimated TL of 21.  Continuing in that
>>  vein, we have "RMD" as Rule of Man ruins at TL 13, and "ZS9"
>>  as Ziru Sirka (Vilani Empire) ruins at TL 9.  Similar usages
>>  can be devised for any other pre-Third Imperium starfaring
>>  culture; in the early Spinward Marches, one might encounter
>>  "DaG", pre-Maghiz Darrian ruins at TL 16, or "ZhB", the
>>  remnants of an early Zhodani colonization attempt that failed,
>>  but was TL 11.
>>
>>  Comments?  Flames (to /dev/null, please)?  Discussion?
>>  Counterproposals?
>
>Yes. Much better than the parenthesizing. However, remember this will add a
>lot of work to those people working on the FS data. And you could get some
>interesting clashes between ZSn and RMn codes :-)

It looks like the codes section is going to be getting pretty busy.   I
still prefer the simple R# plan, where # is the TL of the relics found.
- --

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|      Professional Driver - Traveller Guru       |
|   Duchovny Manor Sniper and Beverly's Brother   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
|   "Wide unclasp the tables of their thoughts    |
|  These same thoughts people this little World"  |
|      - inscription on a stained glass window,   |
|        found in the Winchester Mystery House.   |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 10:13:41 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Musings on June THUDDD

At 09:06 PM 5/31/97 -0700, Craig wrote:
>
>I have a somewhat odd idea for the June THUDDD, and would appreciate list
>members' reactions.

<snip>


>The ship to be produced will be a yacht, purely a pleasure craft for the
>absurdly wealthy, with minimal performance, and little or no weaponry.
>This is a ship used to flit about civilized space, visiting the yacht
>clubs orbiting the snottier worlds of the Imperium. :)  For the use of
>those without ship-design inclinations, I myself will provide the stats
>for a 'vanilla' yacht which will be acceptable for entry.
>
>The key element in judging entries for this one special THUDDD would be
>the descriptive text about the vessel, not to exceed 2000 words total.
>Narrative walkthroughs of the vessel, describing the spaces you'd
>encounter inside, would be the suggested format.  Tell us about the
>gleaming skilak-wood bannisters on the spiral staircase leading up to the
>observation bubble.  Show us the captain's suite with its zero-gee canopy
>bed.  Lead us onto the Art Deco bridge.  Give us a ship that's *real* to
>the players!
>
>So...what do people think?

This sounds ver interesting.. I can see a number of us gearheads teaming up
with more artistic people to produce the finished design. (Gridlore
Technologies has already contracted with Kirsten of Sylea for the
decorating job..)

>And, just to avoid panic...July will be back to number-crunching and
>laser-counting, I promise. :)

Good!  Wouldn't want all this artsy stuuf to get in the way of shaving
individual watts off my power requirements!  :)
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
|  Creative Planetologist, THUDDer, 20 year vet  |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
|  "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|  about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|  Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|   -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin"  |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 09:57:32 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: FS/M0 Data

At 03:59 PM 6/1/97 +0200, Hans wrote:
>Douglas E. Berry writes:

>>I still prefer the "highest sustainable TL" model.. Anyone could import
>>massive amounts of aid and high tech goodies, but without the
>>infrastructure to support it, it's a false TL.
>
>But how do you then explain all those low-population worlds with Industrial+
>technology? It takes a lot of people to run an industrial society. I suppose
>that at higher TLs you may be able to have a handful of people direct a lot
>of robotic manufacturing equipment, but that's not the impression I get of
>the way things are done in the Imperium.

As long as you have the materials and the know-how, the TL is sustainable.
Aworld with only 3000 people on it could run a fairly effective TL 6
society, it just wouldn't be very large.  Remember that up until the 1850s,
just about everything was hand-crafted, the concept of indentical
components was unheard of!

 And in any case, a medium-tech 
>society simply cannot be run without a lot of people.

Why is this?  Because we are bureaucratic?  How about an absolute monarchy,
where the King says "I need a rail line out to End's Point.. do it!" and
the ironworkers and railmen execute the King's wishes, or get executed!

 With my definition
>the explanation is simple: They make enough interstellar credit to buy what
>they need from elsewhere. A typical example would be a mining colony that
>didn't produce _anything_ except processed ore of some kind. By your
>definition they'd be TL 0 (or perhaps TL 1).

But when the interstellar trade gets cut off?  That mining colony is going
to be in decent shape, since it will (presumably) have the materials (raw
ore and machine tools) and know-how to build what it needs.  Anything that
requires components that are not availible locally (TL 13 holo-memory
chips) will fall into disuse as equipment fails.  Overall, the tech level
is going to sink to a level that the natives can support.

Take modern day San Francisco as an example..  I live within walking
distance of two stores that sell and repair computers, and there are
numerous mechanics, engineers, electricians, etc.. living here.  If
necessary, we could maintain TL 8 without outside aid.  If you were to go
to Papua New Guinea, and your laptop dies, good luck.  Your bringing TL 8
items into the P-NG jungle does not raise the local TL, due to the lack of
infrastructure to support it.

Now, the constant introduction of hi-tech does encourage a slow rise in the
local TL, as more natives become familiar with the new tech, and learn to
manipulate/repair it.

 But what's interesting to
>players and referees (and to scouts and tourists, for that matter) is the
>level of technology they are likely to meet when they go to the planet in
>question, not how the people there got the stuff.

But sometimes the "how" can be the story.. Where did these TL 0 nobodies
learn to use a gauss rifle?  Also, please don't assume that all
players/refs share your views.. my players love to burrow into the "why's"
and "how's" of the universe.

>>For interstellar groupings, I will grant you this. but it has to be the TL
>>that can be supported by the industrial and educational segments of the
>>population.  The late 3rd Imperium had several worlds at TL16, but it
>>couldn't be said that the Imperium as a whole was able to exploit that
>>technology.
>
>The Imperium as a whole had an _average_ TL of 12 in 1100, a century after
>they were said to have reached TL 15. Obviously the average TL is a better
>measure of what the Imperium as a whole is able to exploit.

Agreed, I should have made it more clear that I meant average TL in that point.
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
|  Creative Planetologist, THUDDer, 20 year vet  |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
|  "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|  about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|  Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|   -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin"  |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 13:03:37 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: Where Is the FFS2 Docs Online?

At 09:31 AM 6/1/97 -0600, "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net> wrote:
<<<<snip>>>>>
>>Well this not a problem/issue, I do not believe that MM wanted a "public"
>>release just a bigger "playtest" group over a longer time period. 
>
>	It's not a "problem/issue" except that until IG tells me, I cannot answer
>your question above "where are the FFS2 docs at." Just because MM says
>"Okie Dokie" doesn't cut it with legal considerations. No matter how
>"restricted" we make the bigger playtest group, it would still be bigger
>than what we were originally given permission to do.

David,

My reply was not meant to berate you about releasing the docs location(s),
just a comment that it will not be that large of issue/problem for MM to
get the playtest expanded. That is if MM does "Call The Ball" on IG's
product releases. If he does or can work out the issues with IG then IG
will give y'all the permission to release the docs, and too how many for
how long. But IG stated in message that MM would have the ability to "Call
The Ball" on future products and their release to prevent further FUBAR's
like Starships, First Survey et al. It just seem to me that IG says one
thing but there actions contradict their earlier statements

Now that you mentioned it how big was the playtest group that you had
permission for. No names please!!!<GG>"Humor!"


- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 20:10:23 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Musings on June THUDDD

On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> At 09:06 PM 5/31/97 -0700, Craig wrote:
> >
> >I have a somewhat odd idea for the June THUDDD, and would appreciate list
> >members' reactions.
> 
> <snip>
> 
  <snip>
> 
> >So...what do people think?
> 
> This sounds ver interesting.. I can see a number of us gearheads teaming up
> with more artistic people to produce the finished design. (Gridlore
> Technologies has already contracted with Kirsten of Sylea for the
> decorating job..)
> 

This is something we really shoul dwork on with ISBA. Including
corporations that *design* the ship in its real sence. Taking care of 
the external and intirior look after the gearheads have decided what to
include, its basic shape and so on. The ISBA would than be a true
roleplaying list were construction companies negotiated with other fields
for decorating jobs and so forth.

> >And, just to avoid panic...July will be back to number-crunching and
> >laser-counting, I promise. :)
> 
> Good!  Wouldn't want all this artsy stuuf to get in the way of shaving
> individual watts off my power requirements!  :)
> --
> +------------------------------------------------+
> |   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
> |  Creative Planetologist, THUDDer, 20 year vet  |
> |         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
> |************************************************|
> |  "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
> |  about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
> |  Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
> |   -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin"  |
> +------------------------------------------------+
> 

Tommy Grav                  tommy.grav@astro.uio.no    
Institute of Astrophysics   http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/
University in Oslo          "If you value your lives, be somwhere 
Norway                       else!" - Ambassador Delenn B5 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 20:05:33 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Musings on June THUDDD

On Sat, 31 May 1997, Craig Berry wrote:

> I have a somewhat odd idea for the June THUDDD, and would appreciate list
> members' reactions.
> 
> However, this leaves the THUDDD an exclusively gearhead domain.  While
> this is fine as a general rule, I've had the nagging sense that it leaves
> something out.

I agree somewhat. There will always be someone left out. I think that the
ultimate THUDDD format would be were people from the TML teamed up on 
the design. Three to four people working together to bring the ship all
the dimensions it need. First the descuss the design, then each of the 
team is given a field to work on the ship. One does design. Another
the deckplans and a picture of the vessel. The third the narrative
discription. This would mean that everybody could partisipate without
loosing the diversity in the gearhead department. I would like to 
emphesize that this is just thoughts thrown out of the top of my head.

> 
> These doubts were crystallized by the THWAP proposal.  A ship design is
> just a pile of numbers; to be used in roleplay, the GM and players need to
> know a lot more.  Some of this is simple stuff like pictures of the ship,
> and deckplans, and so forth; on a deeper level, though, one wants to
> convey the *feel* of the ship, what it's like to travel aboard her, what
> gives her "personality."  Are the corridors squeaky-clean, wide, and
> brightly lit, or dim tunnels of exposed wiring conduits with grating
> floors?  What's the messroom like?  The bridge?
> 
> The textual portions of past THUDDD entries have touched on questions like
> these, but only lightly.  My proposal is that, for June only, this become
> the emphasis.  My original thought was that graphical plans and so forth
> could be included, but I worry that would again exclude non-gearheads.  So
> what I'm proposing is this:
> 
[Proposal cut]
> The key element in judging entries for this one special THUDDD would be
> the descriptive text about the vessel, not to exceed 2000 words total.
> Narrative walkthroughs of the vessel, describing the spaces you'd
> encounter inside, would be the suggested format.  Tell us about the
> gleaming skilak-wood bannisters on the spiral staircase leading up to the
> observation bubble.  Show us the captain's suite with its zero-gee canopy
> bed.  Lead us onto the Art Deco bridge.  Give us a ship that's *real* to
> the players!
> 
> So...what do people think?
> 
I do have one trouble with this and that is us non-native english speaking 
partisipants of the TML. To write a narrative description of a vessel is 
a real challenge in the creative use of a language. It is very easy to get
a very one-dimensional ship when you do not master a language. To give you
one example there is a few words or parts of the sentences above I do not 
full grasp (although I have spendt one year in New York and speak english 
rather weel). I not sure what a bannister is, or a canopy bed for that
matter. To partisipate in this I would need time, so this has to be ruled
on fast. 

> And, just to avoid panic...July will be back to number-crunching and
> laser-counting, I promise. :)
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>    |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
>  --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
>    |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
>        "Every man and every woman is a star."
> 
> 

Tommy Grav                  tommy.grav@astro.uio.no    
Institute of Astrophysics   http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/
University in Oslo          "If you value your lives, be somwhere 
Norway                       else!" - Ambassador Delenn B5 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 20:16:53 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Criminals are dumb (was: Smart guns)

On Sat, 31 May 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> At 01:43 PM 5/31/97 +0200, Hans wrote:
> 
> In California we've had the so-called "three stikes" law in place for just
> over a year now.  This law is simple; if you have two prior felony
> convictions, and are convicted of any criminal offence, you go to jail for
> 25-life.  Once the idiots realized that there wouldn't be any more free
> rides, early paroles, and plea bargaining, the crime rate dropped like a
> rock doing .3c.

Do you have some numbers on this. I not saying your wrong or anything, I 
would just like to see how much the criem has fallen with.
> 
> I'm good friends with several San Francisco Police officers, and have gone
> along on a couple of ride-alongs.  The thing that many people tend to
> forget is that most crooks are exceedingly dim.  One night, my friend spots
> an old Caddy with a burnt-out tail light.  This is a fix-it ticket, just a
> friendly warning to repair the problem.  When we pull the car over, the
> driver gets evasive, changes his story, keeps looking at the trunk, tries
> to bribe Jim.. in short, does everything in the world to make us suspicious
> as hell.  Jim calls for a dog, dog immediately points on the trunk
> (probable cause) and a search revels 10kg of cocaine.  Since I was a
> witness, I got to testify, and watched a three time loser get life.  If he
> had just nodded his head and said "yes sir, no sir, I'll get that fixed,
> sir" he would have gotten away.

Just saw teh movie "Action Jackson" on TV yesterday. This discription
reminds me of the pursesnatcher in the beggining of the movie. Like the 
police officer said: "Does he think were driving a ice cream truck?".

> 
> the morale of the story is, never expect the criminal element to behave
> with anything resembling intellegence.. if the were smart, they wouldn't be
> criminals...
> --
> 
They would be white collar criminals or maybe politicans :-)

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> |   Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 

Tommy Grav                  tommy.grav@astro.uio.no    
Institute of Astrophysics   http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/
University in Oslo          "If you value your lives, be somwhere 
Norway                       else!" - Ambassador Delenn B5 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1394
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Sunday, June 1 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1395



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Where Is the FFS2 Docs Online?
Re: Musings on June THUDDD
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1391
FF&S Write-up of TL-15 Xboat
j-drives
Re: [TML] combat question
Re: [TML] combat question

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 12:38:09 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Where Is the FFS2 Docs Online?

At 01:03 pm 06/01/97 -0500, Sam Thomas wrote:
>David,
>
>My reply was not meant to berate you about releasing the docs location(s),
>just a comment that it will not be that large of issue/problem for MM to
>get the playtest expanded. That is if MM does "Call The Ball" on IG's
>product releases. If he does or can work out the issues with IG then IG
>will give y'all the permission to release the docs, and too how many for
>how long. But IG stated in message that MM would have the ability to "Call
>The Ball" on future products and their release to prevent further FUBAR's

	Perhaps, but he calls the ball with IG. We're bound by our contract, so
he'll have to talk to them.

>Now that you mentioned it how big was the playtest group that you had
>permission for. No names please!!!<GG>"Humor!"

	I wasn't handling the list of playtesters; Guy took care of that.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 11:54:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Musings on June THUDDD

On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, Tommy Grav wrote:

> On Sat, 31 May 1997, Craig Berry wrote:
> 
> > I have a somewhat odd idea for the June THUDDD, and would appreciate list
> > members' reactions.
> > 
> > However, this leaves the THUDDD an exclusively gearhead domain.  While
> > this is fine as a general rule, I've had the nagging sense that it leaves
> > something out.
> 
> I agree somewhat. There will always be someone left out. I think that the
> ultimate THUDDD format would be were people from the TML teamed up on 
> the design. Three to four people working together to bring the ship all
> the dimensions it need. First the descuss the design, then each of the 
> team is given a field to work on the ship. One does design. Another
> the deckplans and a picture of the vessel. The third the narrative
> discription. This would mean that everybody could partisipate without
> loosing the diversity in the gearhead department. I would like to 
> emphesize that this is just thoughts thrown out of the top of my head.

Well, there is certainly nothing stopping anyone from forming such a
consortium under the current THUDDD rules.  I think it's a great idea,
personally.

> > The key element in judging entries for this one special THUDDD would be
> > the descriptive text about the vessel, not to exceed 2000 words total.
> > Narrative walkthroughs of the vessel, describing the spaces you'd
> > encounter inside, would be the suggested format.  Tell us about the
> > gleaming skilak-wood bannisters on the spiral staircase leading up to the
> > observation bubble.  Show us the captain's suite with its zero-gee canopy
> > bed.  Lead us onto the Art Deco bridge.  Give us a ship that's *real* to
> > the players!
>
> I do have one trouble with this and that is us non-native english speaking 
> partisipants of the TML. To write a narrative description of a vessel is 
> a real challenge in the creative use of a language. It is very easy to get
> a very one-dimensional ship when you do not master a language. To give you
> one example there is a few words or parts of the sentences above I do not 
> full grasp (although I have spendt one year in New York and speak english 
> rather weel). I not sure what a bannister is, or a canopy bed for that
> matter. To partisipate in this I would need time, so this has to be ruled
> on fast. 

Yes, I realize that this THUDDD will be harder on our less English-fluent
list members, just as previous ones have been hard on non-gearheads.  I
hope to move the disadvantage around over time, but it's impossible to
create a totally level playing field, I fear; nor is it necessarily
desirable.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 15:07:04 -0500
From: Andy Holzrichter <jhereg@southwind.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #1391

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 10:38:56 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: What type B starports can build!

At 07:45 PM 5/31/97 +1200, you wrote:
>I think that Type B starports can build only spacecraft (non jump).  Of
>course they could always just leave that bit out and finish the ship
>somewhere that can install a jump drive.
>

The problem being, how to get your partially finished ship to that Type A
starport...

I've always seen many of the B class Starports as being the near equal of
the As, lacking only the ability to manufacture j-drives.  In many cases,
this might be due to a lack of the neccessary elelments, or a reluctance of
a major ship builder to commit to a shipyard in system.

Whenever I am detailing a large Pop world with a B port, one of the major
questions is always: why aren't they an A?  Some of the answers are
interesting.
- - --
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -----------

I have found a two different references to the (shipbuilding) difference
between an A & B starport.  

The first was that a B could not build a ship of the line.
The Second was that a B could only build QSDS type designs.  

	I have slightly misinterpreted the second to mean they are limited to
approximately 
5000 dt designs & are not easily capable of building customized starships.
We are just getting into this as our Traveller characters are in the
process of recovering/colonizing a barren world.  It is a very large (9)
world with 2G.  The starport is mostly in the Highport which is shut down
but functional.  First hey have to eliminate the pesky creatures from the
port...

									jhereg

jhereg

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 16:44:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Subject: FF&S Write-up of TL-15 Xboat

I've been meaning to send this out.  Some time ago, I wrote an article on
"Relic IISS Ships and the New Era/Reformation Coalition" (or some such
title).  For that article, I made a write-up of an Xboat using _Fire,_
_Fusion,_&_Steel_.  For whatever reason, I neglected to post that
write-up with the article.  So, I'm posting it now.  

According to CT Supplement 7, the Xboat has a massive array of databanks.
I read that as meaning "a *lot* of extra computers."  Unfortunately, in
any edition of Traveller, starship computers are too expensive to have a
large number of them installed in a starship.  (By "large," I mean "three 
or more times the usual number"; i.e., 10+ computers instead of just 3.)
To get around this, I made an assumption: I assumed the Model Flight
computers had approximately one-hundredth the storage capacity of Model
Standard computers.  (Mod Flt have 1/10 the volume, mass, and power usage,
and 1/1,000 the cost.)  

If my assumption was correct, I could have the storage capacity of five 
additional Mod Std computers for the price of 1/2 an additional Mod Std 
computer (but at the volume of 500 such computers).  

Since the Xboat has *always* been a maneuver-less ship with minimal cargo,
I felt justified in spending the ship's volume in this manner.  

I made a further assumption: A computer could be a Model Flight computer
*with* the Fiber-Optic backup otion (i.e., using *both* the "Mod Flt"
modifiers *and* the "Mod FB" modifiers).  

I'd appreciate your feedback.  

Franklin

*******************************************************************************

IISS Express Boat (Xboat)

General Data

Displacement: 100 tons          Hull Armor: 28
Length: 14 meters               Volume: 1,400 kiloliters
Price: MCr 93.828               Target Size: S (Small)
Configuration: Sphere USL       Tech Level: 15
Mass (Loaded/Empty): 565.867/457.167

Engineering Data

Power Plant: 72 MW TL-15 Fusion Power Plant, 1 year duration
  (0.258 MW surplus)
Jump Performance: 4 parsecs (350 kiloliters total; 87.5 kiloliters 
  per parsec)
G-Rating: None; no Contra-Grav Lifters; (Internal Structure braced 
  for 1 G acceleration)
G-Turns: None
Fuel Tankage: 350 kiloliters, plus 7.2 kiloliters reserved for power plant
Maint: 23

Electronics

Computer:
  5x TL-15 Mod Fb Computers (1.1 MW each);
  500x TL-15 Mod Flt/Fb Computers (0.11 MW each; used as "databanks")
Commo:
  1x TL-15 Radio, 30,000 km (1 hx; 1 MW);
  3x TL-15 Laser-Commo, 1,000 AU (inf.; 0.3 MW each);
  3x TL-15 Maser-Commo, 1,000 AU (inf.; 0.6 MW each)
Avionics: TL-15 Flt Avionics
Sensors: 1x TL-15 Passive EMS array, fixed array, 90,000 km (3 hx; 0.06 MW)
ECM/ECCM: None
Controls: 2x Workstations

Armaments -- None

Accommodations

Life Support: Extended (0.28 MW); Grav Compensators (7 MW)
Crew: 2 (1x Maneuver; 1x Electronics)
Crew Accommodations: 2x Small Staterooms (0.0005 MW each)
Passenger Accommodations: None
Cargo: 84.2 kiloliters (6 displacement tons)
Small Craft and Launch Facilities: None
Air Locks: 1 (0.001 MW)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 17:05:34 -0400
From: Thomas Walter Trelenberg <tomt@scri.fsu.edu>
Subject: j-drives

> I've always seen many of the B class Starports as being the near equal >of the As, lacking only the ability to manufacture j-drives.  In many >cases, this might be due to a lack of the neccessary elelments, or a >reluctance of a major ship builder to commit to a shipyard in system.

Here a thought....

Allow "A" ports to build brand new j-drives.  Then your "B" ports, while
not being able to produce a drive from raw elements, has the equipment
and capable personnel to perform high quality remanufacure of a j-drive.
A drive thus produced would not be entirely new, but would also be a bit
cheaper.  Use the analogy of "A" ports selling "dealer engines", "B"
ports selling high quality "rebuilt engines"....while at a "C"
port,...hope that BillyBob can find the parts you need in his junk "out
back" and hope that he didn't get his A&P certification out of a cereal
box.

TT

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 17:15:29 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] combat question

> I'm really not as bloodthirsty as I sound!  I'm just wondering whether I'm
> doing something wrong with fire combat...

What kind of armor did the PC's have?  

If none, it seems that the T4 rules should be bloody enough.  A SMG 
does 2 D damage.  If you have an average character (stats 7-7-7), you 
can take him out real quick with autofire.

Let's say you roll average damage on this average character.  That 
would be two 3's (one on each die), and this is doubled to 6's.   So, 
now you've got two 6's of damage to take off the character's stats.

If this is the first hit, you use the critical hit rule and roll this 
damage randomly on the character's stats.

We roll, and the first one goes on the character's Str, reducing it 
to 1 point.  The second random damage roll is crucial.  If you roll 
Str again, the character is unconscious and one of his other two 
stats is seriously reduced.  If you roll another location, the 
character is wounded, barely able to keep conscious (two stats 
reduced to 1), and loosing a lot of blood.  If damage was just one 
point more (rolling a 4 on one of the die--doubled to 8), this would 
guarantee unconsciouness.

You can see how this combat could get very lethal if you use more 
powerful weapons that do more damage than just two dice.

I've got two suggestions for you if you want to spruce up combat.  
One is Glenn Grant's hit location system.  Glenn did a great job on 
this.  Not only do you find a location, but there are also side 
effects to inflict on characters for damage to certain locations.  
Here's Glenn's chart:

Col 1	Col 2	Location	Superficial	Minor	Serious	.
  11	11	Cranium/Ear	Stuns 1 rd	Frac/Conc	Brain
  12	12	Cranium/Crown	Stuns 1 rd	Frac/Conc	Brain
  13	13	Face/Eye	Stuns 1 rd	Frac/Impd	Brain
  14	14	Face/Jaw	Stuns 1 rd	Frac/Impd	Throat 1p/r
  15	15	Neck		Throat 1p/r	Spine
  16	--	Top of Torso		Throat 1p/r	Spine

  21	16	Top of Torso		Frac	Artery 2p/r
  22	21	Top of Torso		Frac	Artery 2p/r
  23	22	Shoulder	Drop items	Frac	Impd/amp
  24	23	Shoulder	Drop items	Frac	Impd/amp
  25	--	Upper Torso		Lung 1p/r	Heart 2p/r
  26	--	Upper Torso		Lung 1p/r	Heart 2p/r

  31	24	Upper Torso		Lung 1p/r	Heart 2p/r
  32	25	Upper Torso		Frac	Artery 2p/r
  33	--	Mid Torso		Lung 1p/r	Artery 1p/r
  34	26	Mid Torso		Lung 1p/r	Artery 1p/r
  35	31	Mid Torso		Lung 1p/r	Spine
  36	32-33	Upper Arm	Drop items	Frac	Impd/amp

  41	--	Upper Abdm		Intl 1p/r	Intl 2p/r
  42	34-35	Upper Abdm		Intl 1p/r	Intl 2p/r
  43	36	Upper Abdm		Intl 1p/r	Intl 2p/r
  44	41	Lower Abdm		Intl 1p/r	Intl 2p/r
  45	42	Lower Abdm		Intl 1p/r	Intl 2p/r
  46	43-44	Forearm/Elbow	Drop items	Frac	Impd/amp

  51	45	Pelvis		Frac	Spine
  52	46	Pelvis		Frac	Impd
  53	51-52	Hand/Wrist	Drop items	Frac	Impd/amp
  54	53	Groin		Impd	Intl 1p/r
  55	54	Hip/Buttocks		Frac	Impd Hip
  56	55	Hip/Buttocks		Frac	Impd Hip

  61	56	Upper Leg	Fall	Frac	Artery 2p/r
  62	61	Upper Leg	Fall	Frac	Impd Leg/amp
  63	62	Knee	Fall	Frac	Impd Knee/amp
  64	63	Lower Leg	Fall	Frac	Impd Leg/amp
  65	64-65	Ankle/Foot	Fall	Frac	Impd Ankle/amp
  66	66	Incidental

  Secondary Effects:
  #p/r		Character receives additional points of damage per subsequent
  	
    round until medical attention received.

  Drop Items	This might not be automatic.

  Stun		Stunned characters cannot attack or move for 1 round, longer
  in 
    the case of more serious wounds.  Might require rest to recover.

  Fall		Might not be automatic.  Might incur extra damage, usually 1 	
    point, depending on situation.

  Frac		Fracture.  

  Impd		Impaired function of limb, organs, etc.

  Conc		Brain concussion.  Either mild, causing headaches, or serious,
  	
    causing migraines, dizziness, seizures, etc.  Severity increases 	
    if character loses consciousness.

  Lung		Lung puncture, causes additional damage.  

  Throat		Throat wound impairs breathing, causes additional damage.

  Intl		Internal organ hit, causes additional damage.

  Brain		Partial or total paralysis, coma, speech impairment,
  blindness, 	
    personality change, seizures, etc.  This will depend on swiftness
    	 of medical attention and amount of damage taken.

  Spine		Almost always causes paralysis.

  Heart		Heart injury causes additional damage.

  Artery		Major artery hit causing additional damage.

  Amp		Potential amputation.  If large amount of damage received in a
  	
    single hit, character may receive additional 1-3 pts. of damage 	
    per round until medical attention received.  Energy weapon hits 	
    do not incur extra damage as the wound automatically 		
    cauterizes.


The other thing that I would suggest is expanded medical rules.  The 
basic T4 rules don't account for continuing damage.  Like the 
character above--he could continue loosing blood and therefore 
receive more damage if he is not treated.

I've put together some medical rules from my own thoughts and other 
Traveller rules.  You can pick and choose from these, and they will 
add another dimension to your game--not to mention make your medic PC 
that much more important and pull the player into him.

These rules are quite long, and watching the length of this post, 
I'll put in a second reply to your question.

Sometimes things I copy from my word docs do not come out all that 
great in an e-mail post--all the tabs and such get screwed up.

If you want a better copy of either of these (Glenn's hit location 
chart or my medical rules), e-mail me and I'll send you the word doc.

This post will continue in another reply.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 17:15:31 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] combat question

This post is a continuation of my reply to Bill Rutherford's combat 
question.

The other thing that I would suggest is expanded medical rules.  The
basic T4 rules don't account for continuing damage.  Like the
character above--he could continue loosing blood and therefore receive
more damage if he is not treated.

I've put together some medical rules from my own thoughts and other
Traveller rules.  You can pick and choose from these, and they will
add another dimension to your game--not to mention make your medic PC
that much more important and pull the player into him.

These rules are quite long, and watching the length of this post, I'll
put in a second reply to your question.

Sometimes things I copy from my word docs do not come out all that
great in an e-mail post--all the tabs and such get screwed up.

If you want a better copy of either of these (Glenn's hit location
chart or my medical rules), e-mail me and I'll send you the word doc.



VII.  HEALING AND MEDICAL TREATMENT.
 1.	Procedure.  Healing can take place either naturally or at an
 increased pace by 	
  medical attention.  There are a variety of steps required for
  specific wounds based 	 on their category.  See the specific
  sections below.  In all cases, Diagnosis must be 	 performed first.

 2.	Diagnosis.  Before medical treatment can be applied, a diagnosis
 roll must be 	
  made.  The time it takes to make this assessment is 3 D6 x 2 minutes
  (DMs:  -	 Medical Skill;  -1 if Edu 5+;  -2 if Edu 10+;  -3 if Edu
  15).  This assumes the injuries 	 are external--if character has
  internal damage, the time roll is 3 D6 x 4 minutes 	 (same DMs).  If
  a TL 7-11 medkit is used, reduce the time factor to 30 sec for 	
  external injuries and 1 min for internal injuries.  If a TL12+
  medkit is used, reduce 	 the time increment to instant.  This time
  increment becomes important to prevent 	 further injury to the
  character due to no medical treatment.     

  To diagnose an injury:  Routine test of Medical skill.

  This task becomes Difficult if it is performed in the field.  If
  this task is failed, the GM will roll 2 D6 on the mishap table to
  see if a misdiagnosis occurred.  On a major 	 mishap, the GM will
  apply an additional 1 D6 damage points from the misdiagnosis.

 3.	Superficial wounds.  Character has taken damage, but no attributes
 have been 	
  reduced to 0.

  Natural healing rate:  2 points per characteristic per day.  Healing
  can only take 	 place while the character is convalescing--meaning
  that a character needs to be 	 home bound or on light duty during
  this period.  

  Treatment roll:  This roll simulates the cleaning and binding of
  superficial wounds to prevent infection.  Treatment requires the use
  of a first aid or medical kit.  If this skill throw is not
  successful, the natural healing rate must be used instead of the 		
  medical healing rate.  The time it takes to perform treatment is 3
  D6 x 2 min (use 	 medical skill level and the Edu DMs listed in the
  diagnosis section as negative DMs 	 on this throw).  Success on this
  throw allows the damaged character to heal at the 	 medical healing
  rate.  This roll indicates that initial treatment has been performed
  	 and a treatment regiment has been prescribed.  The throw does not
  have to be 	 performed more than once, and success indicates that
  the healing procedure has 	 been accomplished.  The patient may be
  given some medication or bandages to 	 administer by himself.  The
  time throw is that required for actual treatment and does 	 not
  include time for lab tests, etc.

  Easy test of First Aid or Medical skill  

  Medical healing rate:  All wound points are recovered in 24 hours. 
  This requires a 	 skill level of Medical-2, First Aid-2, or better. 
  If a skill level 0 or 1 is used, then the 	 natural healing rate
  must be used.  (Medical treatment from a 0 level or level 1 	
  skilled character still needs to be applied to avoid the wound
  deterioration roll.)  	 Healing can only take place while the
  character is convalescing--meaning that a 	 character needs to be
  home bound or on light duty during this period. 

  Wound deterioration:  If a character does not receive proper medical
  attention for 	 his wound in the specified time, there is a chance
  that the superficial wound will 	 deteriorate into a minor wound. 
  Medical treatment must be applied in 2 D6 hours 	 (the diagnosis
  must be completed and treatment must be begun), and if not, this
  roll 	 must be made.  If this roll fails, roll 2 D6 on the mishap
  table and apply extra 	 damage.  Failure on the wound deterioration
  roll indicates that infection has set in.  	 Repeat the 2 D6 roll on
  the mishap table for extra damage every hour until the 	 character
  receives medical care or dies.  If successful medical attention is
  applied 	 (or if the wound deterioration roll is successful but the
  time for medical treatment has expired), the character can recover
  at the natural healing rate.  

  Roll 7- on 2 D6 to avoid wound deterioration 

  Surgery:  Surgery is not required for superficial wounds.

  Replacement body part:  This is not required for superficial wounds.
  



 4.	Minor wounds.  Character has taken damage and one attribute is
 reduced to 0.

  Natural healing rate:  1 point per characteristic per day.  Healing
  can only take 	 place while the character is convalescing--meaning
  that a character needs to be 	 home bound or on light duty during
  this period.  

  Treatment roll:  This roll simulates the cleaning, stitching, and
  bandaging of 	 minor wounds in order to facilitate healing and
  prevent infection.  Treatment requires the use of a first aid or
  medical kit.  If this skill throw is not successful the natural 	
  healing rate must be used instead of the medical healing rate.  The
  time it takes to 	 perform treatment is 3 D6 x 3 min (use medical
  skill level and the Edu DMs listed in 	 the diagnosis section as
  negative DMs on this throw).  Success on this throw allows 	 the
  damaged character to heal at the medical healing rate.  This roll
  indicates that 	 initial treatment has been performed and a
  treatment regiment has been prescribed.  The throw does not have to
  be performed every day.  The time throw is that required for actual
  treatment and does not include time for lab tests, etc.

  Average test of First Aid or Medical skill  

  Medical healing rate:  2 points per characteristic per day.  This
  requires a skill level of Medical-3, First Aid-3, or better.  If a
  skill level 0, level 1, or level 2 is used, then 	 the natural
  healing rate must be used.  (Medical treatment from a 0 level, level
  1, 	 or level 2 skilled character still needs to be applied to avoid
  the wound deterioration 	 roll.)

  Wound deterioration:  If a character does not receive proper medical
  attention for 	 his wound in the specified time, there is a chance
  that the minor wound will 		 deteriorate into a serious wound. 
  Medical treatment must be applied in 1 D6 x 10 	 minutes (the
  diagnosis must be completed and treatment must be begun), and if
  not, this roll must be made.  If this roll fails, roll 2 D6 on the
  mishap table and apply extra damage.  Failure on the wound
  deterioration roll indicates that infection has set in.  	 If a roll
  of 2 exactly is made on the mishap roll, a catastrophic trauma has
  occurred 	 and the character dies immediately.  This reflects the
  fact that sometimes trauma 	 patients may seem okay, but suddenly
  die when a critical blood vessel ruptures or 	 some other hidden
  damage takes full effect.  Repeat the 2 D6 roll on the mishap 	
  table for extra damage every hour until the character receives
  medical care or dies.  	 If successful medical attention is applied
  (or if the wound deterioration roll is 		 successful but the time
  for medical treatment has expired), the character can 	 recover at
  the natural healing rate.  

  Roll 7- on 2 D6 to avoid wound deterioration  

  Surgery:  Surgery is required for all minor wounds resulting from
  gunshot, fragment, blade, and puncture wounds.  It is not needed for
  minor burns from energy weapons.

  Replacement body part:  This is not required for minor wounds.

 5.	Serious wounds.  Character has taken damage and two attributes are
 reduced to 0.

  Natural healing rate:  Serious wounds cannot heal naturally. 
  Medical attention is 	 required.  Serious wounds must be diagnosed
  and stabilized before any healing can 	 take place.  

  Treatment roll:  Serious wounds require the use of a medical
  facility like a local 	 hospital, aid station, or sickbay of a
  starship.  Treatment cannot be performed until 	 the patient has
  been diagnosed and stabilized.  The time it takes to perform 		
  treatment is 3 D6 x 6 min (use medical skill level and the Edu DMs
  listed in the 	 diagnosis section as negative DMs on this throw). 
  Success on this throw allows 	 the damaged character to heal at the
  medical healing rate.  Note that Medical-3 or 	 better is required
  to perform treatment on seriously wounded characters.  This roll 	
  indicates that initial treatment has been performed and a treatment
  regiment has 	 been prescribed.  The throw does not have to be
  performed every day.  The time 	 throw is that required for actual
  treatment and does not include time for lab tests, 	 etc.

  Formidable test of Medical skill  

  Medical healing rate:  1 point per day.  This requires a skill level
  of Medical-3 or 	 better.  Characters of lower skill level cannot
  help seriously wounded characters.  	 This may be attempted once per
  day.  Roll randomly as to which characteristic this is applied to. 
  If the stat rolled is at maximum, no healing occurs that day. 
  Healing can only take place while the character is in the hospital
  or is convalescing.    

  Wound deterioration:  Medical treatment must be applied in 2 D6
  minutes (the 	 diagnosis and stabilization rolls must be completed)
  or the character dies.  If this is 	 completed but medical attention
  at a suitable facility is not performed in the next 	 hour, roll 3
  D6 on the mishap table and apply extra damage.  Serious wounds 	
  automatically begin to deteriorate at a rate determined by this
  mishap throw per hour until major medical treatment is received or
  the character dies.  Any roll of 2 6s 	 indicates (of the three
  dice) a catastrophic trauma has occurred, and the character 	 dies
  immediately.    

  Surgery:  Surgery is required for all serious wounds resulting from
  gunshots, 	 fragments, blades, punctures, and burns from energy
  weapons.

  Replacement body part:  Roll a check to see if the body part is
  damage beyond 	 repair.  The player chooses one of his character's
  stats that have been reduced to 0 	 and rolls the stat (undamaged
  level) or less on 3 D6.  If this roll is successful, no 	
  replacement body part is needed.  If the roll fails, replacement
  parts are needed 	 before the limb can function again--or possibly
  before healing can take place.

 6.	Death.  A character who has received damage that reduces three
 attributes to 0 is 	
  dead, but, in the 57th century, these characters still may be
  helped.		

  Assuming the brain is not destroyed (and the torso is not crushed,
  etc.), a 		 character can survive for 1 D6 minutes after the heart
  has stopped.  A character can be saved if he is placed in a low
  berth (or on life support at a TL9+ facility) within this time limit
  (requires Medical-2+).  During this time, the character's attributes
  remain 	 at 0, and he will be vulnerable to any influence that
  interferes with his life support 	 such as a severe jolt or
  depletion of needed supplies.  If the dead character is 	 tended by
  a surgeon or other specialist (Medical-4+), he may be sustained in
  this 	 condition indefinitely or until his life supports are
  threatened.  Otherwise, he can only be held in suspended animation
  for 2-12 months.  The character must then make a 	 normal low berth
  survival throw.  The character can be treated at a facility of at 	
  least TL11, and requires a Staggering test of Medical skill
  (requires Medical-4+).  	 Use a DM of +1 for every TL over 13.  If
  this test succeeds, the character recovers in a comatose state with
  one point in each physical attribute.  Subsequent treatment 	 will
  restore one point to one characteristic per week if a roll of 9+ is
  made on 2 	 D6.  Use a DM of +1 for each TL over 12.  The player
  must decide before each 	 week's roll which attribute is to be
  restored that week.  If the character misses the 	 roll, the chosen
  attribute is reduced permanently one point.  When stats reach 4 or 	
  the max level, whichever is less, the character may resume limited
  activity.  Up until this point, all healing must be done in a
  hospital.  At the restoration of 4 points, the 	 character may
  convalesce and heal at a rate of one point per stat per day.  This 	
  must be rolled randomly, like for serious wounds, and points applied
  to maxed stats 	 are lost.  

  Dead characters must be diagnosed, resuscitated, and stabilized
  before healing (or 	 they are put in a low berth) can take place.

  Replacement body part:  Replacement body parts are absolutely
  required for dead 	 characters before a limb can function again--or
  possibly before healing can take 	 place. 

 7.	Surgery.  Minor and serious wounds from gunshot wounds and
 fragments 		
  require that the slugs and fragments be removed.  In all cases,
  tissue damage must 	 be repaired.  Wounds from energy weapons will
  often require extensive surgery 	 because their great heat will
  usually cause a steam explosion from the water in the 	 tissues, and
  considerable damage to adjacent tissues from radiated heat.  Doctors
  in surgery must be assisted by at least one surgical technician of
  Medical-2+ and at 	 least one anesthetist.  

  Because recovery from surgery is by no means certain, a wounded
  character 	 undergoing an operation must throw a surgical survival
  and recovery roll.  Roll 2 D6 	 for 6+ for normal recovery.  A 2
  means death on the operating table, and a 3, 4, or 5 means an
  impaired recovery.  Use the DMs below on this throw.  For impaired 	
  recovery, throw 2 D6 of permanent damage to a character's stats. 
  These points may be distributed in any fashion the player decides,
  but the dice cannot be broken up.  If any characteristic is
  permanently reduced to 0, the character will remain in a 	 permanent
  coma.

  Surgery Survival Roll DMs
  TL14+ facility	+2
  TL12+ facility	+1
  TL6 facility		-1
  TL5 facility		-6
  Surgeon's Dex 8+	+1
  Surgeon's Dex 10+	+2
  Medical skill	+1 for each level over 3
  Anesthetist 		+1 if Medical skill is 3+
  Surgical Tech	+1 if Medical skill is 3+

 8.	Post Operative Care.  Characters who undergo surgery require time
 recovering in a 
  hospital and an additional period of reduced activity in
  convalescence.  Characters 	 who have suffered minor wounds require
  2 D6 days in the hospital, and those who 	 have suffered serious
  wounds require 1 D6 x 10 days in the hospital.  During this 	 time,
  a character's stats will be halfway (possibly improved) between
  their wounded 	 value and their max value.  For some wound
  categories, their are two healing rates 	 listed--natural and
  medical.  Character's may heal at the higher rate given that they 	
  convalesce after their discharge from the hospital.   

  Characters with minor wounds may leave the hospital in half the
  indicated time 	 provided they remain bed patients in the care of a
  Medical-1 nurse for the balance of their recovery period.

 9.	Convalescing.  A character may return to limited duty while he is
 convalescing as 	
  long as the work is not strenuous.  For example, a character may
  perform short 	 hours for navigation or admin positions, but may not
  hunt or exert himself in a 	 piloting (small craft) position. 
  Fighting may be done only in self-defense until the 	 character is
  nearly or completely recovered.

 10.	Medical Costs.  Use these guidelines when deciding how much to
 charge for 	
  doctor's fees.  A character can use his medical skill as a positive
  DM on any of the dice throws below when determining cost.

  An ordinary trip to a physician (an office call), on average, costs
  Cr10 per medical 	 skill level.

  The cost of treating a superficial wound is usually 1 D6 x Cr10 plus
  the cost 		 of the office visit.  

  The cost of treating a minor wound is usually 2 D6 x Cr10 plus the
  cost of the office 	 visit.

  The cost of treating a serious wound is usually 4 D6 x Cr10 plus the
  cost of the office visit.

  The cost of treating a critical wound is usually 8 D6 x Cr10 plus
  the cost of the office 	 visit.

  Surgery on a minor wound typically costs  1 D6 x Cr500 plus the cost
  of treating the 	 wound and any other costs incurred. 

  Surgery on a serious wound typically costs  2 D6 x Cr1000 plus the
  cost of treating 	 the wound and any other costs incurred.

  Surgery on a critical wound typically costs  2 D6 x Cr1000 plus the
  cost of treating 	 the wound and any other costs incurred.  

  Hospital care is typically Cr500 per day for first 1D-3 days after
  surgery, then Cr100 	 after that.

  Out patient costs for minor wounds typically run 2 D6 x Cr10 per
  week.

  Character's may wish to hire a home health aid or nurse.  Home care
  usually costs 	 Cr25 per day per skill level of the care provider. 
  Hiring a home health aid will alloy 	 the patient to recover points
  at the rate indicated for medical supervision.  

  Taking care of a patient in a near death situation (a character with
  a critical wound 	 saved through the low berth or life support
  procedure) is very expensive.  This costs 	 a minimum of Cr250,000
  for the treatment plus Cr5,000 per day of recovery in the 	 hospital
  and Cr500 per day of outpatient therapy.

  Doctors receive all of the office call and minor surgery fees. 
  Private practice 	 physicians typically receive 50% of the surgical
  fee with the balance going to the 	 hospital and assistants.  Some
  doctors may be on retainer or salary (like when they 	 are in the
  employ of a noble or hospital).  Typically, mercenaries have their
  medical 	 paid for by the organization they work for.

  In addition to these, there is a cost associated with general,
  non-surgical treatment of a wound.  Miscellaneous medical items for
  the treatment of Superficial wounds costs 3 D6 Cr.  For minor
  wounds, this cost is Cr10 x 2 D6.  For serious wounds and 	 above,
  these costs are included in the surgery and hospital costs.

 11.	Stabilization and Resuscitation.  Both serious wounds and
 destroyed wounds must 
  be stabilized before healing can take place.  Dead characters must
  be resuscitated if they are to be healed.  Both of these tasks are
  based on the use of an automed (or in a hospital facility).  If they
  are attempted with a medkit, increase the difficulty one 	 level and
  double the time increment.

  To stabilize a character:  Routine test of Medical skill.  
  (time factor 90 seconds)

  To resuscitate a dead person:  Difficult test of Medical skill.  
  (time factor 30 seconds)

 12.	Low Berths.  Rules for low berth usage is listed on pg. 115 of
 T4.  There are 	
  additional rules on pg. 40 of TD #21.

 13.	Replacement Body Parts.  There are rules for replacement body
 parts, prosthetics, 	
  bionics, regrowth, and cloning on pg. 35 of TD #12.  This is
  continued on pg. 32 of 	 TD #13.  Additional pieces of equipment and
  drugs are listed on pg. 26 of TC #9.

 14.	Instant Healing.  Through use of drugs and medical skill, a
 medical provider can 	
  return hit points directly to a patient at the completion of initial
  treatment.  In order 	 for this to occur, medical treatment must be
  successful and provided in the allotted 	 time for each wound
  category.  

  For superficial wounds, return an amount of points to the injured
  character equal to 	 the Medical or First Aid skill of the care
  provider.  Roll 1 D6 to apply each point (a 	 result of 1=Str,
  2=Dex, 3=End, 4=Int, 5=Edu, 6=doctor's choice).  Points applied to 	
  maxed attributes are lost.  

  For minor wounds, care providers must have Medical-2, First Aid-2,
  or better.  Only 	 one point can be applied, and it is rolled in the
  same manner.  If a 0 stat is improved to 1 in this manner, the
  character is no longer unconscious.

  Serious and critical wounds cannot be improved in this manner.

 15.	Medical Skill.  On pg. 45 of T4, it states that the medical skill
 is not only the study 	
  of medicines, but also the training to heal patients and maintain
  health of individuals.  The skill level represents steps in
  increasingly better ability to treat diseases and 	 injuries. 
  Guidelines for the skill are listed below.

  Medical-1 signifies that the individual is a qualified medic.  This
  person can also 	 obtain a license to serve as a medic aboard a
  starship.  A nurse, paramedic, 	 medical student, or EMT would be
  considered to have medical-1.  

  Medical-2 indicates more advanced knowledge equivalent to a
  physician's assistant, nurse specialist, or last year medical
  student.  Medical-2 expertise or better allows a +1 DM when reviving
  low passengers.

  Medical-3 is the qualification for a person to be a doctor--whether
  he has a license 	 or not.  A medical license allows a character to
  write prescriptions, handle most 	 ailments, and communicate with
  other doctors on a professional level.

  Medical-4 is usually the minimum qualification for a specialist.

 16.	Surgeon.  To obtain a surgeon's license, a character must be a
 doctor (obtained 	
  medical-3) and pass the medical board exam.  The exam is a difficult
  test of 	 medical skill (with Edu), and characters with a Dex of 8+
  receive a +3 DM.  If the 	 character fails this throw, then he has
  flunked his exam but may try again after his 	 medical skill is
  increased.  Only one try per level is allowed.

  Surgery skill throws use the character's Dex--not his Edu or Int. 
  Characters who try 	 surgery without being surgeons do so at a
  negative DM equal to 12 - skill level.

 17.	Xeno Medicine.  Normally, medical expertise is considered to
 apply to the 		
  individual's own race.  Medical skill for humans is considered to
  apply to humans--	 whether vilani, zhodani, or solomani.  This skill
  also implies, to a limited extent, to 	 the animals which live on
  human worlds and to the ones that live on the character's 	 home
  world (or other world where he was trained an practiced).  

  Anyone with a medical skill can apply that skill, with a reduction
  of -2, to aliens.  If 	 the alien organism is broadly similar to the
  race the skill was meant for (carbon 	 based, oxygen breathing,
  water drinking, etc.), then apply a -4 DM to all medical 	 throws. 
  If the organism radically different from the care giving race (for
  example, a 	 creature that metabolizes ammonia or combusts in a
  oxygen atmosphere), then 	 apply a -8 DM to all medical throws.  
  			

  One exception to his rule is human doctors and vargr patients or
  vice versa.  The 	 only modification is that the skill level is
  reduced by 1.  Vargr and human 		 physiology is remarkably similar.

 18.	First Aid?  This skill is described on pg. 42 of T4.  It can be
 used in the place of 	
  Medical skill for any task dealing with superficial or minor wounds.
   The skill can also be used to resuscitate a dead character or
  stabilize a serious or critically wounded 	 character.

 19.	Treatment throws and environment for superficial and minor
 wounds.  		
  Superficial and minor wounds can be treated anywhere as long as the
  doctor has a 	 medical kit.  If treatment is done in the field, use
  a -4 DM.  There is no DM if 	 treatment is done at an average
  facility, like a sickbay in a ship.  When treating 	 these wounds in
  a hospital quality facility, use a +4 DM.

 20.	Time rolls.  In many cases when dealing with medical recovery,
 time is of the 	
  utmost importance.  All time rolls are made the standard way by
  rolling 3 D6 and 	 multiplying by the time factor to see how long it
  took to do a procedure.  Medical 	 personnel can use their skill
  level as a -DM on this time roll to simulate their speed 	 and
  experience.

 21.	Self treatment.  Characters with superficial wounds may treat
 themselves if they 	
  have the proper equipment available.  Characters with minor and
  serious wounds 	 may treat themselves as long as they are conscious.
   Characters with a minor wound must make an End check on 2 D6 (at
  full End) to be able to treat themselves.  The 	 check is made with
  3 D6 in the case of serious wounds.

 22.	Patient/Doctor Time.  Medical care takes time, and there is a
 limit to how much one 
  doctor can do.  It may be necessary to see if a doctor has enough
  time in the day to 	 treat patients if he has several.  Use the
  chart below as a guide to determine the 	 doctor's work load by
  counting the number of wound levels (not patients) that he is 	
  treating and multiply by the time factor.  A physician with a heavy
  work load may 	 have to prioritize which patients he treats. 
  Patient time refers to the time the doctor 	 actually spends with
  the patient and any other time the doctor spends behind the 	 scenes
  running tests, researching problems, etc.  

  WOUND LEVEL	PATIENT TIME
  Superficial		30 minutes (total), or the treatment time roll.
  Minor		1 hr. per week
  Serious		1.5 hrs. per day
  Critical		2 hrs. per day

Kenneth.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1395
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, June 2 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1396



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Why use better /worse tech?
THUDDDalia
FFS Gauss Weapon Design Question
Re: [TML] combat question
Re:  Tech, RoM and M:0
SSDS & Large Hangers
Re: FF&S Write-up of TL-15 Xboat
Re: What type B starports can build!
Re: X and E ports
Re: FS/M0 Data
Re: FFS Gauss Weapon Design Question
Re: FF&S Write-up of TL-15 Xboat
Re: X and E ports
Re: Yanks in space!
Re: The Code Duello [was More EA Nits]
Re: Musings on June THUDDD
Re: Hard Times tech question (Ion drives and MPD drives)
errata & MT/TNE vs T4
Very Rapid Fire MG
Re: Statistical impressions II (and B pop worlds)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 23:42:24 -0700
From: Nicholas Wright <xgr52@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Why use better /worse tech?

All right then you tech level arguers, here is the penultimate question

=93What tech level is the clockwork radio?=94

Nick Wright
=93Its only work if you would rather be doing something else=94 Sir James
Barrie

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 07:37:15 -0400
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>
Subject: THUDDDalia

	Craig: two points:

1) Did nobody send in comments with their ballots?  That's actually about
3/4's of the fun; people start discussing the effectiveness of designers'
choices, arguing the pros and cons of putting in multiple lasers vs. a
small meson gun or whatever, and issues get threshed out.  People discuss
it for days after the results come out.

	It tells us *why* ships won, not just whether they won or not.  As
it is, there hasn't been a single THUDDD-related post following the
announcement save for Doug's victory post.  If you could collate and repost
the voter's comments, I'm sure you'd see a lot of interesting and relevant
posting going on.

	In passing, I should apologize for not having voted (let alone been
around much lately); I plead two jobs and a 6-day work-week.

2) Yachts?  Not again...  I just got burned out over the Caligula...
although I could always update it for TL-12, heheheh...

R.D. Elliott <rellio@po-box.mcgill.ca>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 21:46:22 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: FFS Gauss Weapon Design Question

I have a question concerning the design sequence for 
gauss weapons in FFS.  Why do the lengths of the barrels
increase as the tech level increases, instead of decreasing
due to advances in barrel design?

The tech level modifier table on page 102, top of the second 
column clearly indicates this.  I think it's fair to replicate
the table here without violating copyright, so here it is:

	TL	TLm
	10	1.6	
	11	1.3
	12	1.0
	13	0.8
	14	0.6
	16	0.4

The length of the barrel is calculated with the following 
equation (V = velocity in meters per second):

	BarrelLength = V / (100 * TLm)

For instance a velocity of 1058.5 m/s at TL13 gives you a
barrel length of 13.23cm, while at tech level 10 the same
velocity (and less advanced barrels) gives a length of 6.6cm.

So it seems that the weapons designers of the day, if they
wanted to max out their designs for the biggest bang from 
the smallest package, would simply use a TL10 barrel while 
using a TL13 battery pack.  Yeah, sure the battery pack is 
going to be about 1.5 times as big as it would have to be 
for a TL13 barrel, but there is a weight savings.

The battery pack for this weapon would add 55gm to the finished
weight, while the TL10 barrel would have half the mass of
the TL13 barrel (.3969kg / 2 = .19845).  Subtracting the added
weight of the battery from the weight shaved off the barrel 
gives a total weight savings of .14345kg (about 1/3 of a pound).
In larger weapons this savings probably becomes substantial.

So what's the verdict? Is this table broken, or has this become
cannon and it's going to stay that way, or am I making a mistake
somewhere?  I'd be more than happy for someone to show me the
error of my ways.

Thanks,

Eric Freitas
edf@atlantic.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 21:11:40 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@orca.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: [TML] combat question

>From earlier posters, I understand the our concept of bloody fire combat
>is, perhaps, over-exaggerated - police reports and all seem to indicate a
>lower death rate.  Last night's battles seemed TOO nonlethal though - by
>next day, ALL of the PCs and all but one of the NPCs were hobbling around
>with various assorted bullet holes in them and, with the exception of the
>one, nobody's life was even threatened...

My first suggestion is that TL 12 medical treatment should probably be
advanced enough to put anyone whose pieces are all there back together. My
second suggestion is that your characters were using the wrong weapon; in
any close-range combat they should be using waterknives (EA, page 68). I
had a squad of Imperial Marines attack a pirate crew with them and WHOA
BOY! There were enough body parts flying around to stock a Monty Python
sketch!

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 20:54:10 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@orca.bc.ca>
Subject: Re:  Tech, RoM and M:0

Andrew Vallance (a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz) writes:

>>I am not saying such a campaign would be bad, it's just that we already
>>have such a campaign universe in TNE. I wanted M Zero to be different.
>
>I disagree. The important thing to remember is the time differential. TNE is
>set less than 100 years after a catastrophic collapse, M:0 is set 1700 years
>after a gradual collapse; a vital difference.

Good point.

>The number of
>functioning or repairable RoM artifacts would be almost infinitesimal, the
>average
>PC should be lucky to run across more than a couple in their entire lives.
>They
>should be treated in the same manner as ancient artifacts, a once in a
>lifetime
>discovery (insert Andrew's impassioned plea that RoM does not suffer from
>the same overuse that the Ancients have).

[SNIP]

>... M:0 is set firmly in the middle of the former Ziru Sirka, so the vast
>majority of relics are actually going to be TL 11, with a sprinkling of TL 12.

If this was the case, I would agree with you; a few barely functional
relics only slightly more advanced than current technology would add
adventure plots without invalidating canon and turning the game into a
treasure hunt. The trouble is, that is not the impression I got from FS;
there seemed to be a lot of worlds far more advanced than Sylea. I just
didn't see how the Third Imperium was supposed to have conquered all these
vastly more powerful systems yet not have advanced to TL 14 itself for
centuries. And EA states the RoM had "experimental" TL 15 weaponry. This
just didn't fit with my understanding of Traveller history or the FS data;
shouldn't some of the more stable systems have been able to advance past TL
15 after 1700 years?

Amen to your plea against overuse.

>So lets look at the big picture of what I see M:0 being 'like'. Firstly,
>there will be a lot of pocket empires.

[BIG Snip of great ideas, refer to Andrew's post for the good stuff]

>Secondly, the Imperium is not expanding into a primitive wilderness, it's
>expanding into a fairly vibrant interstellar culture...

Brilliant post, Andrew, I will be using these ideas in my campaign. I just
wish they could be part of the "official" canon. Perhaps some of the people
working on the FS revision could take your ideas into account?

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 23:05:24 -0700
From: Jeff <jbrisset@campus.mci.net>
Subject: SSDS & Large Hangers

I was wondering if anyone knows why the SSDS stops at 90 tons for hangers?
After all it seems if you have 2 50 ton hangers would it not be the same
as 1 100 ton hanger , or am I missing the point somewhere? 

Jeff Brissette
jbrisset@campus.mci.net
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/2423/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 23:01:52 -0700
From: Jeff <jbrisset@campus.mci.net>
Subject: Re: FF&S Write-up of TL-15 Xboat

At 06:47 PM 6/1/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 16:44:27 -0400 (EDT)
>From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
>Subject: FF&S Write-up of TL-15 Xboat


>According to CT Supplement 7, the Xboat has a massive array of databanks.
>I read that as meaning "a *lot* of extra computers."  Unfortunately, in
>any edition of Traveller, starship computers are too expensive to have a
>large number of them installed in a starship.  (By "large," I mean "three 
>or more times the usual number"; i.e., 10+ computers instead of just 3.)

This is something I relate to. I was recently attempting to use the new SSDS 
rules to create the Xboat and Xboat tender. Under the SSDS rules it seems as
if there is no real reason why an Xboat should not have an M-drive since
there seems to be way to much room available for it. 

>To get around this, I made an assumption: I assumed the Model Flight
>computers had approximately one-hundredth the storage capacity of Model
>Standard computers.  (Mod Flt have 1/10 the volume, mass, and power usage,
>and 1/1,000 the cost.)  
>
>If my assumption was correct, I could have the storage capacity of five 
>additional Mod Std computers for the price of 1/2 an additional Mod Std 
>computer (but at the volume of 500 such computers).  
>
>Since the Xboat has *always* been a maneuver-less ship with minimal cargo,
>I felt justified in spending the ship's volume in this manner.  
>
>I made a further assumption: A computer could be a Model Flight computer
>*with* the Fiber-Optic backup otion (i.e., using *both* the "Mod Flt"
>modifiers *and* the "Mod FB" modifiers).  
>
>I'd appreciate your feedback.  
>
>Franklin
>

While I really don't use the FF&S rules at all, I think that your guesses are 
workable solutions. I myself when doing my SSDS design did not bother the
exact 
storage that I needed, I just knew that I need to use about 35 tons of
space. So I 
used the price and power of 35 tons worth of workstations as a quick fix
until I 
come up with some sort of more reasonable numbers.

The only real question I have about the design you made is why is it TL15?
It has always been my opinion that for standard ship designs, there would be 
one from each tech level starting the earlest tech level it could be built.

The Xboat for example would have a TL 13, 14, & 15 version. Since TL13 is the 
first TL for which jump-4 is possible.

Overall I think you have a solid design.
 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 21:26:31 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: What type B starports can build!

In mail you write:

> I think that Type B starports can build only spacecraft (non jump).  Of
> course they could always just leave that bit out and finish the ship
> somewhere that can install a jump drive.

Since that'd be in a different system, shipping the unfinished ship is
gonna be *real* expensive unless it is small enough to fit as "normal"
cargo. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 20:52:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: X and E ports

In mail you write:

> In my Classic/Mega Traveller campaign I puzzled why every
> planet had at least a bit of level bedrock marked and why
> you had so many adventures where clearly you were suppose
> to land your scoutship and then use auxilarly ships to
> move about (even if they were slow).
>
> I came to the conclusion that it must be that you _can_
> land your ship, but it is too risky to do when alterantives
> exist.  The only reasons I could come up with are...
> -I you try and land on vegitation (etc.) your thrusters kick
> up debris and dust obscuring your vision/sesnors.

Much simpler. First, you can't tell if the land *under* the vegetation
is level or if it has deep holes just the right size to eat landing
legs. Also, since there are ships that use reaction drives, you are
likely to cause a brush fire or worse when landing.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 21:18:28 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: FS/M0 Data

In mail you write:

>>The TL of a planet indicates the highest TL used by most of its inhabitants.
>>Since TLs can differ for different areas this may mean only that the planet
>>is very advanced in one limited area: medicine, robotics, environmental
>>control, etc.
>
> I still prefer the "highest sustanable TL" model.. Anyone could import
> massive amounts of aid and high tech goodies, but without the
> infrastructure to support it, it's a false TL.

I was thinking and I came up with what may be a more workable
alternative. Among other things, it helps handle the high-TL, low Pop
worlds. 

TL is what you can get repaired, or what you can buy. Low Pop worlds
may have a limited selection of items.

That pretty much covers all the possibilities. And it fits what players
need to know. They don't care if it is *produced* locally, just so they
can buy it or get it fixed.

The low Pop modifier should be ok with most players. After all,
expecting a world with a pop of 20 to be able to fix an item that
nobody onworld even *owns* is a bit much. But common items they can
likely fix.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 08:42:20 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: FFS Gauss Weapon Design Question

On Sat, 31 May 1997, Eric Freitas wrote:

[Intro and table snipped]
> 
> The length of the barrel is calculated with the following 
> equation (V = velocity in meters per second):
> 
> 	BarrelLength = V / (100 * TLm)
> 
I don't have my books at hand but I seem to remeber that the 
equation should read

        Barrellenght = V * TLm / 100

This would at least give a sensible answer.

> So what's the verdict? Is this table broken, or has this become
> cannon and it's going to stay that way, or am I making a mistake
> somewhere?  I'd be more than happy for someone to show me the
> error of my ways.
> 
My guess would be tath you have just read the formula the wrong
way. FF&S is sometimes hard to read on this point. Done it myself
at least ten times.

> Thanks,
> 
> Eric Freitas
> edf@atlantic.net
> 

Tommy Grav                  tommy.grav@astro.uio.no    
Institute of Astrophysics   http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/
University in Oslo          "If you value your lives, be somwhere 
Norway                       else!" - Ambassador Delenn B5 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 01:21:40 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: FF&S Write-up of TL-15 Xboat

At 11:01 pm 06/01/97 -0700, you wrote:
>At 06:47 PM 6/1/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 16:44:27 -0400 (EDT)
>>From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
>>Subject: FF&S Write-up of TL-15 Xboat
>
>
>>According to CT Supplement 7, the Xboat has a massive array of databanks.
>>I read that as meaning "a *lot* of extra computers."  Unfortunately, in
>>any edition of Traveller, starship computers are too expensive to have a
>>large number of them installed in a starship.  (By "large," I mean "three 
>>or more times the usual number"; i.e., 10+ computers instead of just 3.)
>
>This is something I relate to. I was recently attempting to use the new SSDS 
>rules to create the Xboat and Xboat tender. Under the SSDS rules it seems as
>if there is no real reason why an Xboat should not have an M-drive since
>there seems to be way to much room available for it. 

	Actually, this has been true since Book 5: High Guard.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 01:20:31 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: X and E ports

At 08:52 pm 06/01/97 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> In my Classic/Mega Traveller campaign I puzzled why every
>> planet had at least a bit of level bedrock marked and why
>> you had so many adventures where clearly you were suppose
>> to land your scoutship and then use auxilarly ships to
>> move about (even if they were slow).
>>
>> I came to the conclusion that it must be that you _can_
>> land your ship, but it is too risky to do when alterantives
>> exist.  The only reasons I could come up with are...
>> -I you try and land on vegitation (etc.) your thrusters kick
>> up debris and dust obscuring your vision/sesnors.
>
>Much simpler. First, you can't tell if the land *under* the vegetation
>is level or if it has deep holes just the right size to eat landing
>legs. 

	This isn't just a problem with landing spacecraft, either. Vegetation
quite nicely hides holes that will tip one of those little Bobcat
earthmovers if the rear wheel goes into them ... my neighbor was very nice
about the damage to his fence ... <G>

>Also, since there are ships that use reaction drives, you are
>likely to cause a brush fire or worse when landing.

	Also, what if it's a swamp, or soft ground, or just plain uneven, etc...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 09:59:03 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Yanks in space!

>> I'm not arguing that Traveller should be swedish, just that US culture
>> should not be taken as the normal case as it is so way off the average case
>> here on earth.
>>
>>
>> /Anders Backman
>> Aniware AB
>> anders.backman@aniware.se
>>
>>
>
>With all due respect, might I point out that 'normal' is something that
>you have in common with your peers, and may not reflect anything other
>than your personal lifestyle.  So while I accept that the US may not be
>'normal' to you, I will not accept your telling me that Sweden sets the
>standard to be judged by.
With "normal" I (of course) mean either average or median depending on how
the distribution looks. I'm well aware that Sweden is not normal and as you
can read from your quote of my quote that is also not what I'm saying. What
I'm saying is that as for violence/crime level/cops per inhabitant etc US
is pretty far from the average case here on earth. Average is taken by
summing a measured factor over all samples and dividing by the number of
samples.

>This is not to denigrate your country (or anyone elses for that matter),
>I am just saying that your perception is formed by your experience.  It is
>different than mine.

I'm sorry but statistical measurements has nothing to do with experience or
perception. The formulation of what is to be measured maight be but not the
answer. If I happened to be living in Burma or even i US the fact that
regarding violence(crime level/cops per inhabitants US would still be far
from normal.

>I try not to claim that the US is better, but I also do not accept others
>telling me it is worse.  So when you claim that (I'm remembering the post,
>not looking at it) 'Sweden is civilized, unlike the US' - and I admit that
>I find sentiments like that both provocative and totally inappropriate to
>a venue such as the TML - I have to believe that you have, for one reason
>or another, developed a negative attitude about the States and will not
>look past it.

Some parts of US works very well indeed and some does not. I do think that
the US is definately a country that I'd prefer living in compared from the
average case here on earth (most people live in China or India). The
problem with this 'discussion' is that I did not say 'Sweden is civilized,
unlike the US' but merely responded to somebodys notion that more laws
would lead to more brutal and violent police. Then I compared two sample
countries (US and Sweden) and noted that despite the fact that we have more
laws and regulation in Sweden (wether this was better or worse I didn't
comment) we have far less police brutality than in the US.

I do not think that the US is less civilized than the average case today on
earth. Democracy, free speech, almost no starvation  etc clearly make it
far above tha average but it is more violent and has a larger crime problem
than the average case on earth. Why that is the case is an interesting
question but pretty off topic. Sorry if I stepped on somebodys toes by
implying that there are aspects of US culture that aren't perfect (the last
paragraph would surely make the blood boil for some on the list but if art
is about evoking emotion then I'm simply exercising my artistic freedom ;))

(I snipped off your closing remarks about my mind and personality as these
were a bit off amrk for general discussion don't you think.)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 10:03:15 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: The Code Duello [was More EA Nits]

>IMHO, women are officially equal, but are often treated specially. Men
>are less likely to challenge a woman than another man, for example.

Why is that actually. Marc seem to imply that in 1100 at least women are
equal member of Imperial society and as fencing is more a test of dex than
strength they'd match men. Were the M0 era less equal by itself or is this
a leftover from the ramshackle empire whose Solomani influences could look
down on women?

Just curious if there's any canon (that ugly word again) supporting your ideas?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 01:39:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Musings on June THUDDD

  I have considerable experience editing the work of non-native English
speakers - for the June THUDDD, I'll be happy to look over any draft
folks care to send me and suggest changes.

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 03:05:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Hard Times tech question (Ion drives and MPD drives)

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

>In mail you write:
>> Ion Drives and MPD (Magnetoplasmadynamic) are the two most fuel efficient
>> drives listed.  However, both are very low acceleration.  MPD is basically
>> limited to 1% of a G or less.  Now, this is a pretty small acceleration.  
>>I was wondering how one would go about increasing the acceleration of an
>> ion or MPD drive.  My first thought would be to increase fuel consumption. 
>
>The reason those drives are low accel are because they are *inherently*
>low mass flow devices. They both rely on charging something and then
>using electric or magnetic fields to accelerate it. The thrust is
>limited by the field strengths. To get a decent mass flow, you need a
>*short* acceleration path, but that limits your field strength severely.
>BTW, do realize that while higher accelerations get you to a given
>velocity quicker, they also give you less to to *benefit* from your speed.

OK, you can't make a 0.01 G MPD drive into a 1 G MPD drive. 6 days for 1
AU is a whole lot better than 20. 

How about a 0.1 G MPD or ion drive?  Could you simply turn the rather
small ion or MPD drive modules I've seen proposed (coffee can sized, if I
remember correctly) into some type of MPD or ion drive attached to a 5-20 m 
long linear accelerator to accelerate the plasma or ionized xenon? 
If MPD is some type of reverse MHD this sounds like it would work pretty 
well.  Am I missing something here?

Would such a drive scale up so that 10 thrust required 10 X power and 10 x
fuel?  It sounds to me like the above approach might need 10X (or possibly
more) power but no more fuel (you simply accererate the same amount of fuel 
significantly faster). 

Also, why can't you simply increase thrust by increasing fuel consumption
(up to a point)? 

Thanks-


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 11:25:03 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: errata & MT/TNE vs T4

My apologies, last week I commented on a trade classification of 'Ic' and
'In' as being impossible under the rules.  Actually I was referring to MT
and TNE rules which would disallow this.  Have to confess to having not
created any worlds under T4 rules yet.

Under T4 it is fine - i.e. ice capped worlds can now be industrial.  (Or
industrial worlds can be ice-capped).

Is this unusual in being a rule that MT and TNE agree on but T4's changed?
(not that I'm suggesting Ice capped worlds shouldn't be able to qualify as
industrial, I'm just curious).

If anyone's interested, the only other differences I could find in trade
classifications between systems is that MT rates a Low Pop world as
Population = 3-, whereas TNE rates it as Population = 4-.  T4 doesn't give
criteria for Low Population worlds or Fluid worlds. [1]

tc
timothy.collinson

[1] Actually, my MT Ref Manual rates a fluid world as Size = A+ and
Atmosphere = 1+ but I assume this is one of the infamous errata.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 20:29:39 +1000
From: Scott & Isabell <becubed@connexus.apana.org.au>
Subject: Very Rapid Fire MG

Here is the text of the article

"A revolutionary Australian weapon which fires at twenty times the rate of
the fastest machine gun in the world is taking the US arms industry by storm.
	Prototypes of Metal Storm, as the new gun is called, have fired in
University of Queensland trails at rates from 45,000 to 135,000 rounds a
minute - compared to 6,000 rpm for America's top machine gun.
But that is only the start, say's the weapon's Brisbane inventor, Mr Mike
O'Dwyer. By early 1996 he expects advanced electronics will make his
largest 36-barrel prototype fire at 1.6 million rpm.
	Experts from leading US arms manufactures are evaluating the technology
which some consider will provide the first really effective defence against
guided missiles, morter shells and smart bombs.
	The weapons enormous rate of fire enables it, literally, to hang a curtain
of lead consisting of tens of thousands of individual bullets in the path
of an incomming projectile.
	The secret of Mr Dwyer's invention is that, apart from the bullets his gun
has no moving parts - no breech, firing pin or other conventional mechanism
- - making it a radical departure from 130 years of automatic weapon design.
	Smart electronics fire each round with split second precision, the bullets
travelling no more than 40cm behind one another - compared to 30m in a
conventional fast machine gun.
	"The technologhy is utterly out of left field. My advantage was not having
an engineering or ballistics background, so I was able to approach the
problem more laterally," Mr O'Dwyer explains.
	In fact Mr O'Dwyer spent most of his carrer as a successful retailer
before turning to his great interest: invention. He claims to have no
particular interest in weapons, but mearly considered the new firing system
to be the most marketable of his 38 inventions.
	It took the better part of $1.5 million and 15,000 hours of work before
the gun was ready to be shown to the experts, he says.
	Early on, Mr O'Dwyer took his concept to the Olympic rifle gunsmith MAB
Engineering in Brisbane and enlisted the support of the manager, Mr Graham
Bugden, to build the prototype.
	"Half the team there thought we were raving loonies. But we built one -
and the first time we fired it, it worked."
	Seven prototypes later, including a 36 barrel monster, the gun has been
filmed by the Queensland University chief technical photographer, Mr John
Coker, spitting lead in 45-Round bursts at 135,000 rpm.
	Those rates were achieved using off-the-shelf electronics and three
barrels. With a more sophisticated firing syatem and more barrels, the rate
can be redoubled, Mr O'Dwyer says.
	The patented technology is presently being evaluated under secrecy
agreements with three leading US arms makers, and is to be appraised by
Australia's Defense Science and Technology Organisation.
	Among the weapons which Mr O'Dwyer believes his will replace is the naval
Phalanx close in anti-missile defence. The Phalanx fires 1450 rounds at an
incoming missile at a rate of 3000 a minute.
	The Metal Storm equivalent will have 1024 barrels in a single pod, each
loaded with 17 bullets. This will put up 17,000 rounds at a rate exceeding
10 million per minute.

By science and technology writer Julian Cribb, from the Australian
newspaper's science and high tech section late in 1995.

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 12:58:40 +0200
From: Carlos Alos-Ferrer <alos@merlin.fae.ua.es>
Subject: Re: Statistical impressions II (and B pop worlds)

>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
>As an example, I got the 'true' populations set up today (POP * Pop
>multiplier) for a closer look at the various sectors and their poulations.
>Total Populations by sector:
        (Snip, snip, snip)

        Bruce, if you re-do the analyisis WITHOUT those seven B-pop worlds,
you could end up with quite different data and conclusions.... several
sectors have the vast majority of its population on just one or two wird
B-pop worlds. Delete them and, as I said, the face of the universe changes
dramatically.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer                          E-mail: Alos@merlin.fae.ua.es
Dpt. Fundamentos del Analisis Economico     Phn: (34) 6 5903400, Ext. 3226
Universidad de Alicante                     Fax: (34) 6 5903685
03071-Alicante (Spain)                      "Thursuth gha kvaekh?"
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1396
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, June 2 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1397



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: FF&S Write-up of TL-15 Xboat
Re: FFS Gauss Weapon Design Question
Re: Speed, Relativity & such (fwd)
Re: Speed, Relativity & such
SSDS & QSDS ?
Re:plastic guns in the real world
Re: SSDS & QSDS ?
Re: Criminals are dumb (was: Smart guns)
Re: Musings on June THUDDD
Re: FS/M0 Data
Deneb and Corridor in Year 0
Re: Swamp World
Rings w/o moons
Re: Criminals are dumb (was: Smart guns)
Re: FS statistical impressions
Re: High Tech Ruins
Re: FS Statistical impressions
Re: FFS Gauss Weapon Design Question
Re: Statistical impressions II (and B pop worlds)
Wow! EA and PE finally get here!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 04:12:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: FF&S Write-up of TL-15 Xboat

fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain) wrote:

<a wonderful FFS Xboat write up, snipped>

Very cool, thanks!!!  Now if some PCs got their hands on one of these they
could make some changes, say... 

Add 100 MW to power plant, add contragrav, add 1 G Heplar, + 30 G-hours of
fuel, add a 300,000 km Active EMS, a TL 15 densiometer, and a 1000 AU
radio. change to accommodations to 4 large state rooms.  Add a 4 ton
vehicle bay and enlarge the cargo hold to disp. 10 tons.  To make space
for this, remove the 500 Flight computers and reduce the other computers
to 3 X TL 15 Fib.  A great ship for couriers, smugglers, and far traveling
explorers (for the last you might want to add in a laser turret and power
to run it, and drop the vehicle bay)

Now that would be a *fun* ship!  (and the modifications would only cost
around 13 MCr, (10 MCr is you are willing to settle for a 60,000 km range
A EMS). 

- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 06:21:02 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: Re: FFS Gauss Weapon Design Question

- ----------
> From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
> To: traveller <traveller@MPGN.COM>
> Subject: Re: FFS Gauss Weapon Design Question
> Date: Monday, June 02, 1997 2:42 AM
> 
>         Barrellenght = V * TLm / 100
> 
> This would at least give a sensible answer.
> 
The equation actually reads BarrelLength = V / 100TLm, and in FFS2
it reads in a much clearer way:
                                              V
				BarrelLength = --------------
                                         100 * TLm

Which still gives a longer barrel for higher TL.  There are two 
ways to alleviate the problem; either write the equation
L = (V * TLm) / 100 or invert the table.  In either case the barrel
length come down with TL rather than increase.  However changing the
equation gives more of a reduction than inverting the table.


> My guess would be tath you have just read the formula the wrong
> way. FF&S is sometimes hard to read on this point. Done it myself
> at least ten times.

I agree FFS1 was very hard to understand on some points.  However, 
when I tried using the beta of FFS2 to design the barrel, I had the
same problem.

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 14:02:53 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Speed, Relativity & such (fwd)

>The universe has shrunk? Or your ability to perceive the universe has shrunk?
>
>This is where I get shaky in relativity; is it the objective universe that
>changes, or the moving person's perception of or ability to perceive the
>universe?
>
>Garry

there is no objective universe. Your observations is all there is but if
you feel more comfortable thinking that your perception of the universe has
changed, fine as the effects are the same. All measurements are relative to
a given reference frame and that is the source for the names of Einsteins
two relativity theories.

It is similar to doppler shift: When you here an ambulance zooming past and
the pitch shifts down do you think the pitch changed or that your
perception of the pitch changed?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 14:08:40 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Speed, Relativity & such

>Ah, so I am not entirely crazy (just eccentric). Now to the next question,
>at what speed does the shift problem begin to show up. Is it before or after
>an exploitable relativistic effect is achieved. By exploitable, I mean one
>where the crew of the ship could make a round trip to another star without
>requiring the ship include a mobile retirement home.
>
>Garry

It depends on how narrow band your radars/sensors are. If your perceived
rate of time is 10% of the resting universes then the aft reflected
radarpulses would have x10 longer wavelength which probably would mean
they're undetected by the receiver. The radar to the fore would similarly
get one tenth the wavelength with probably the same result.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 15:36:47 +0300 (EET DST)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: SSDS & QSDS ?

Pardon me, this is a stupid question but :
What are SSDS and QSDS? I think they are some ship-building formulas and
that they are derived from the FF&S. Are they printed in some book (alas,
I have no material from T4) or are they somewhere in the Net? 

Mikko Parviainen

http://www.hut.fi/~mvparvia

Teach kids the value of a dollar, give them a dime.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 08:33:14 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re:plastic guns in the real world

The Stump Family <stumps@earthlink.net> writes:
>Actually, the so-called plastic gun that supposedly was 'invisible' to
>airport x-ray machines was neither all-plastic nor invisible to the X.
>In reality it was a Glock 9mm with a plastic coating on most of the
>exterior. The major components are still steel, it is very visible to
>x-ray scanners and metal detectors, and it is fairly common. The
>confusion was (I believe) caused by a British tabloid raving about
>invisible terrorist weapons; but they could have been repeating an
>American rag. To the best of my knowledge, 'all-plastic' guns are still
>extremely experimental and almost always a)one-shot weapons that 2) use
>metal bullets.

   American movies don't help.  In the second "Die Hard" movie (the one
in which he makes a call from a Pac Bell pay phone in a D.C. airport),
the hero rants about the bad guys carrying Glocks that won't be picked
up by the metal detectors.  Ignoring the titanium steel frames must make 
for good theater.
   In the Clint Eastwood movie about the American Secret Service, the 
bad guys has a ceramic, double barreled pistol made.  He still has to sneak
in the very metal bullets.   
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  -- "For the quickest descent into the 
ethical quagmire, the Clinton  administration has set a new indoor 
record."   (Howard Kurtz column, The Washington Post, 3/26/95)
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 16:07:33 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Re: SSDS & QSDS ?

mikko wrote:

>Pardon me, this is a stupid question but :
never a stupid question... :-)

(well, alright, there are some, but that wasn't one!)

>What are SSDS and QSDS? I think they are some ship-building formulas >and
SSDS = Standard Ship Design System
     this was the system presented in the T4 book 'Starships'

QSDS = Quick Ship Design System
     this was first published in the T4 rule book but has since been
superceded.  I believe the latest version is available on the 'net.


>that they are derived from the FF&S. Are they printed in some book >(alas,
I have no material from T4) or are they somewhere in the Net?
I'm not certain you'll find SSDS as it's copyright, but Guy 'Wildstar'
Garnett has made QSDS available as its been revised since its T4
publication.  I think its up to v1.5 and is widely used in the THUDDD
design competition.

I stand to be corrected on all the above, but I had nothing better to do
over my tea break!

tc
timothy.collinson@solent.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 09:08:16 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Criminals are dumb (was: Smart guns)

On Sat, 31 May 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
 
> the morale of the story is, never expect the criminal element to behave
> with anything resembling intellegence.. if the were smart, they wouldn't be
> criminals...

Nope, gotta amend that to:

If they were smart, they wouldn't be KNOWN criminals...hell, if they're
smart, they go get an MBA and learn to steal Big...using other peoples
money, to boot!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 09:47:27 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Musings on June THUDDD

I vote YES for a descriptive contest...They're always the best parts of
the ship designs anyway...

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 18:51:43 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: FS/M0 Data

Douglas E. Berry writes:
>At 03:59 PM 6/1/97 +0200, Hans wrote:
>>But how do you then explain all those low-population worlds with Industrial+
>>technology? 
>
>As long as you have the materials and the know-how, the TL is sustainable.

You don't need manpower? Mid-tech means no expert systems. The knowledge may
be there in books, but you need people who _knows_ the stuff to apply it.
And, even worse, you need people to DO the work.

>A world with only 3000 people on it could run a fairly effective TL 6
>society, it just wouldn't be very large.  

First of all, I don't believe that. In fact, it seems so utterly untrue to
me that it is a bit of a shock to realize that I can't produce any hard
evidence to support my claim. I've always taken it as a truism that it
takes a lot of people to run an industrialized society. I've seen it
stated (as a truism) in several SF books. But no factual evidence springs
to mind. So perhaps you are right. But I don't think so. What makes YOU
think that a mere 3000 people can provide all the functions needed to
build a functioning TL 6 society? Do you have any evidence?

Secondly, 3000 people are population level 3. There are plenty of planets in 
the Traveller universe with pop level 1 and 2 with industrial technology. Do 
you also thing that 50 people can run a TL 7 society with no outside help?

>Remember that up until the 1850s, just about everything was hand-crafted, 
>the concept of indentical components was unheard of!

Which would make it _harder_ to provide all the elements of a society, not
easier.
 
>And in any case, a medium-tech 
>society simply cannot be run without a lot of people.
> 
>Why is this?  Because we are bureaucratic?  

Because there are more than 3000 different professions involved in running
a mid-tech society.

>How about an absolute monarchy,
>where the King says "I need a rail line out to End's Point.. do it!" and
>the ironworkers and railmen execute the King's wishes, or get executed!

The actual government has very little to do with it. You need miners to dig 
out the ore and coal, steelworkers to refine the steel, smiths to make the 
digging tools and railway tracks, lumberjacks to provide the ties, carters 
to move the material around, cartwrights to build the carts, roadbuilders to 
build the roads, engineers and surveyors to plan the railway, tracklayers 
builders to lay the tracks, someone to build the engine and waggons, farmers 
to grow the food everybody eats, not to mention the plethora of people in 
tertiary occupations needed just to keep a society running: bricklayers to 
build the houses people live in, brickmakers to make the bricks, doctors to 
cure the sick, teachers to teach, policemen to police, entertainers to 
entertain, administrators to administrate...

>>With my definition the explanation is simple: They make enough interstellar 
>>credit to buy what they need from elsewhere. A typical example would be a 
>>mining colony that didn't produce _anything_ except processed ore of some 
>>kind. By your definition they'd be TL 0 (or perhaps TL 1).
> 
>But when the interstellar trade gets cut off?  

When it does such worlds become impossible. So?

>That mining colony is going to be in decent shape, since it will 
>(presumably) have the materials (raw ore and machine tools) and know-how to 
>build what it needs.  

I see no reason to presume that. If it is a high-tech colony it may have a
'cut-off colony survival package' in its copious computer memory, but I
wouldn't bet on it. How many people actually plan for ultimate disasters?
But even if they did, they simply wouldn't have the manpower to run a
proper society. Odds are that they would die out; second best odds that
they would regress to low tech in a generation or two.

>Anything that requires components that are not availible locally (TL 13 
>holo-memory chips) will fall into disuse as equipment fails.  

Agreed, but I don't see the problem with that. You just change the UPP to
reflect the new reality in the next sourcebook. Why is that a problem?

>Overall, the tech level
>is going to sink to a level that the natives can support.

Exactly my point.
 
>Take modern day San Francisco as an example..  I live within walking
>distance of two stores that sell and repair computers, and there are
>numerous mechanics, engineers, electricians, etc.. living here.  If
>necessary, we could maintain TL 8 without outside aid.  

If everybody outside San Fransisco were suddenly to vanish and the land to
be returned magically to pristine wilderness, most of the people of San
Fransisco would die in a few months as the food ran out. The rest would
scatter far and wide and develop subsistence farming. In any case, I
believe the population of San Fransisco is well into the millions, right?
That is well into the number I think could run a modest industrial
society. Maybe even TL 8.

>If you were to go to Papua New Guinea, and your laptop dies, good luck.  
>Your bringing TL 8 items into the P-NG jungle does not raise the local TL, 
>due to the lack of infrastructure to support it.

But if I go to an American-owned mine in P-NG with a busted lap-top I could
of the type used in the office, I could propably get it fixed. So the
infrastructure would be there, in a way.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 18:57:20 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Deneb and Corridor in Year 0

SD Mooney writes:
>Now, the new, virgin worlds *are* out there, but only when the 3I gets past
>Deneb and into the Marches. And a lot of those would have been touched by
>the Vargr, especially in Deneb and Corridor. And the expansion into that
>reason is explosive.

I disagree. The speed with which the Imperium expanded into Deneb and the
Spinward Marches indicates (to me) that the met almost no problems on the
way. Certainly not active corsair problems. IMO Deneb, Corridor and the
rimward half of the sectors immidiately corewards of them were comparatively
open. Any Vargr worlds would be low- to mid-tech. When the Imperium moved
into these areas it attracted the Vargr from further coreward and the
Imperium abandoned their settlements coreward of the Spinward Marches/Deneb/
Corridor sector border.
 
Just a theory, of course.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 12:56:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brett Fishburne <bfish@atlantech.net>
Subject: Re: Swamp World

At 02:10 PM 5/30/97 -0400, Ethan Henry wrote:

>The trouble is, any planets that could be covered by a uniform
>3 to 10 feet of water would be smoother than a billiard ball.
>While it's tempting, I think we should leave the "desert planets",
>"forest moons" and "ice worlds" to Star Wars players.

A perfect billiard ball...hmmmm...that is interesting.  Perhaps this is not
a "true" planet at all, but an ancient experiment gone bad.  Yeah, that's
it!  The agents, tired of terraforming (which explains the number of
Earth-like worlds) toyed with the idea of creating planets.  This is the
remains of a failed attempt.  The planet "shell" was created and then put
into the proto-shell of a newly formed solar system which was missing a
planet at the proper distance from the star.  Since most of the heavy matter
had already been incorporated into existing planets, the shell mostly
collected water.  Disappointed with the results, the Ancients modified their
approach to creating habitable worlds, but did their best with the world
they had.  They created pseudo-continents from a fibrous mat which floated
on the water surface.  Over time, this mat has exausted the supply of a
critical component in the water world (say an obscure chemical component
like Iridium) and the size of the mats reduced and started to break up.
This lead to the "floating raft people" suggested by Mr. Henry.

Realizing that their civilization was teetering on the edge of extinction,
the populous managed to create a series of "bubble cities" to house the bulk
of the population and moved from the mats to the "bubble cities" before the
mats came apart.  In a cruel twist of fate, the scientific community
responsible for the creation of the "tubes" was decimated when a large
asteroid sank the research mat.  Sadly this technology could not be
reproduced before the mats started to disintegrate at an alarming rate and
the populous concentrated on extending existing bubble worlds and building a
fleet of ships which could withstand the weather (the "factory" ships).  It
was anticipated that the mats would dissolve but the Iridium in the asteroid
was enough to allow some of the mats to continue to survive, though a
fraction of their former size.

Unbeknownst to the general bubble city inhabitants, the mining which they
are doing is slowly eating away the crust of the world which is only a few
hundred miles thick.  Particularly deep tunnels might even get to the
mechinations which still remain from the Ancient's experiment...

Brett Fishburne
bfish@atlantech.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 09:43:41 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Rings w/o moons

It was pointed out to me by an astronomer type that ring systems are
usually herded by at least one or two shepherd moons.  The Traveller
scout-type data systems seem to make rings the smallest body size, instead
of "space junk worldlets."

Is it indeed the case that I should expunge ring systems w/o little moons,
or should I just assume that either the moons are irrelevantly small, or
the ring sized crud is not in a ring if a moon is not present?

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 11:04:52 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Criminals are dumb (was: Smart guns)

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> If they were smart, they wouldn't be KNOWN criminals...hell, if they're
> smart, they go get an MBA and learn to steal Big...using other peoples
> money, to boot!
> 

Isn't that what the government does? Minus the MBA, of course. :-)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 09:50:58 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: FS statistical impressions

At 10:08 AM 5/31/97 -0700, you wrote:
>At 02:09 PM 5/30/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>Someone else may have pointed this out: it's not a waterworld, but an
>>exotic atmosphere.  I _do_ find the prospect of a TL0 impersonal
>>bureaucracy a bit odd, though. 
>
>Anybody else remember the story "Memo to Big Chief?"

That was a favorite.  I first ran across that in Analog, IIR.  I believe I
also ran into a story of similar length there which had leading scientists
of both the US and the USSR defecting to Saudi Arabia, there to build some
doomsday bombs, simply to stop the two superpowers from continuing the cold
war.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 10:04:59 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: High Tech Ruins

At 09:59 AM 6/1/97 -0700, you wrote:
>At 01:20 PM 6/1/97 +0100, Dom Mooney wrote:
>>jeff.zeitlin wrote:
>>>  We note the existance of Ancient sites with a note in the
>>>  Remarks column.  Ancient sites are generally _really_
>>>  high-tech ruins.  Let's extend the principle:  An Ancient site
>>>  is "An"; change it to "An" followed by a TL digit: "AnL" is an
>>>  Ancient site with an estimated TL of 21.

>>Yes. Much better than the parenthesizing. However, remember this will add a
>>lot of work to those people working on the FS data. And you could get some
>>interesting clashes between ZSn and RMn codes :-)
>
>It looks like the codes section is going to be getting pretty busy.   I
>still prefer the simple R# plan, where # is the TL of the relics found.

As one of the proponents of the R# idea, let me continue to throw support
to it.  I can see the benefit of knowing who had been there, but the codes
section is starting to get a tad indecipherable.

p.s.: DB-liked the adventure in JTAS26.  Sounds like you've been there/done
that.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 13:47:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brett Fishburne <bfish@atlantech.net>
Subject: Re: FS Statistical impressions

A general comment.  There was virtually no progress during the dark ages,
which lasted several hundred years.  The dark ages broke down (and
repression with it) and the advances started again.  I think there should be
a lot more repressive regimes than the survey indicates...Of course, I have
only sampled the data by hand as of yet...

Brett Fishburne
bfish@atlantech.net

At 05:34 PM 5/30/97 -0700, John R. Snead wrote:
>Andrew Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> wrote:
>
>>>From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
>>>Subject: RE: FS Statistical impressions
>
>>>Also, Where DO these worlds of TL higher than C get their tech from? 
>>>The 3I  is at the high end of TL C at the moment, rule of man was at 
>>>the lower end of TL C and Valand never went beyond TL B before the 3I.
>>>So where do so many TL D+ worlds come from? 
>
>>Okay, I'm going to play heretic here. (Andrew slips into RPG mode as
>>Prof. Frederick Hans-Waven, holder of the chair of techno-archology,
>>Sylean Polytechnica, 1108)
>
>>It is commonly supposed that the RoM did not exceed tech level 12 and that
>>the Ziru Sirka tech level 11. Whilst one can safely assume this to be 
>>the case for the Ziru Sirka, one cannot for the Rule of Man. We know 
>>that the Terran Confederation achieved tech level 12 around -2200, 
>>leading to their victory in the 8th Interstellar War (the invention of 
>>jump 3 drives playing a vital role in that conflict). However the Rule 
>>of Man did not come to an end for another 500 years. To assume that they 
>>remained at the lower end of tech level 12 for this entire period is 
>>possibly an error. Whilst the Terrans most certainly would have not been 
>>able to devote the same degree of resources to research and development, 
>>it would seem to go against virtually everything we know of the early 
>>Solomani culture to assume that it simply came to a grinding halt with 
>>the absorbsion of the Ziru Sirka.
>
>Also (being even more heretical here) the Long Night lasted 1776 *years*!
>During this time the Darrians went from TL 3 (with TL 12 Solomani input)
>to TL 16.  Why can't some other pocket empire have hit TL 13+.  Some may
>have collapsed, some may still be at TL 13 or even 14. 
>
>I've never understood why everyone seems to think that the Long Night
>means that technological progress has stopped.  It was a severe economic
>collapse, and lots of marginal worlds died out, but 1776 years is a long
>time for easily habitable, high tech, worlds like Terra to just sit around
>and stagnate.  Clearly, none of this technology became widespread, but
>that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. 
>
>Comments?
>
>
>-John Snead jsnead@netcom.com
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 02 Jun 97 12:50:57 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: FFS Gauss Weapon Design Question

On 06/01/97 at 06:21 AM,  "Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net> said:

> The equation actually reads BarrelLength = V / 100TLm, and in FFS2 it
> reads in a much clearer way:
>                                               V
> 				BarrelLength = --------------
>                                          100 * TLm

> Which still gives a longer barrel for higher TL.  

<scratching my head>  Are you sure?  

Ah ha! I bet it's an order of operations thing! ;->

The grouping should be V/(100*TL), so the denominator gets larger as
tech levels go up.

Take this example: 

Velocity = 4000m/s

TL      V/(100*TL)
====================== 
10         4.00
11         3.64
12         3.33
13         3.08

Given a constant velocity, barrel length will go down as Tech Levels go
up?


Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 11:41:55 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Statistical impressions II (and B pop worlds)

On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Carlos Alos-Ferrer wrote:

> >From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
> >As an example, I got the 'true' populations set up today (POP * Pop
> >multiplier) for a closer look at the various sectors and their poulations.
> >Total Populations by sector:
>         (Snip, snip, snip)
> 
>         Bruce, if you re-do the analyisis WITHOUT those seven B-pop worlds,
> you could end up with quite different data and conclusions.... several
> sectors have the vast majority of its population on just one or two wird
> B-pop worlds. Delete them and, as I said, the face of the universe changes
> dramatically.

Yes, but why should I change this, unless we're saying, for some reason,
that hi pop worlds can't exist. It's been mentioned many times throughout
canon that the Hi Pop worlds are what shape and drive the
imperium...they're your biggest markets and the biggest movers and
shakers. The fact that for almost all of the Traveller timeline, the game
play was set far off in the provinces doesn't change the fact that the
social and technological dynamic of the Imperium IS set and ruled by those
Hi Pop planets.

I'd drastically change the socio-economic picture of Earth, too, if I
eliminated Hong Kong, New York, London, Paris, Bombay, Singapore,
Shanghai, and Tokyo from consideration.

Unless we decide that these Hi Pop worldsare wrong, either in TL or
otherwise they're part of the picture we have to develop of the young
Imperium.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 19:55:57 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Wow! EA and PE finally get here!

I just got PE and EA in the post, and I have to say that I am very
impressed. The quality appears to be up a lot, and I have to agree with the
comments from Ken et al.

I've only looked in detail at EA so far (PE deserves more than a quick
flick!) and I like the presentation and the ability to have some weapons
appropriate to the M1100 campaign I'm running at the moment. 9D damage. ;-)
That'll make the players think twice! Gripes are similar to those reported
to date - the missing gun details, and the non-canon RoM references. I can
handwave TL13 (or even just the odd TL14 weapon)  but not TL15+. And
certainly not Vilani stuff at TL13+. However, they fit just right into a
1100 background. My other wish is that the weapons were one long list by
TL, followed or preceded by the detailed text explainations. The mixing and
matching does break the text flow (probably as it was intended), and I
don't like it. But, I am impressed with the standard of the book. 8/10

PE looks delicious! However, the only comment I'll make until I've read it
is that I suggest that IG look at MT's use of sidebars in the main rules.
They were much more readable. Perhaps the typography was a little better.
But that's only a minor point.

If IG can keep these standards going, and even improve them, I'll be happy.
(My comments about a broken FS/M0 release still stand. It needs fixing to
make it worth my while. But hey, we're doing that!)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Feel the guilt / like shackles round your feet / like a halo in reverse"
                     Depeche Mode "Violator"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1397
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, June 2 1997        Volume 1997 : Number 1398



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Hmmmm...Is the truth stranger..
Re: FS Statistical impressions
Re: FF&S Write-up of TL-15 Xboat
Re: j-drives
Re: Musings on June THUDDD
RE: Yanks in space!
Re: What type B starports can build!
Re: [T97#1393] High-tech ruins
Hi Pop Worlds
Re: Rings w/o moons
Re: FFS Gauss Weapon Design Question
Chatting With Melody
Re:FFS Gauss weapons
Nuclear Warheads for T4

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 14:16:57 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Hmmmm...Is the truth stranger..

On Sat, 31 May 1997, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> On 05/31/97 at 12:39 PM,  Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net> said:
> 
> > > No offense, Peter, but my skepticism of "hot" fusion will end when
> > > *anybody* builds a 300MW power plant using *any* hot fusion technology. 
> > > ;->
> 
> > Go outside around noon on a clear day, look up. :)
> 
> Ok, anybody but God! ;->
> 

(After some recent examples of offense taking gone wrong, it would take a
lot more than a little skepticism over fusion energy to get my goat Eris,
but thanks for inserting that anyway)

Craig has a good point, we have a good example of fusion occurring in
the sky over our heads.  We have no such example of this "new" process
that might be what the "cold fusion" people have found.

And, as implied originally and above, I don't mean to say that they
haven't found anything at all.  I just wanted to insert a bit of
skepticism over the original post's absolute truthfulness.  There has been
too much controversy around the whole subject of "cold fusion" at this
point to take any news on the subject at face value until it has been
rigorously evaluated.

I would much prefer to go looking for new employment so I can afford the
new "grav car" Chevy comes out with in '07 than keep my job  and find out
there is no "amazing discovery" to be made in this field.  Of course, I'd
really rather do both :)

[soapbox mode on]

Another note about the Hot Fusion program though; in the 50s when the
scientific community went to Congress with the idea of a Fusion Research
Effort they "promised" that if you spend X dollars over Y years you will
have viable fusion energy.  X was measured in Billion and Y was 30 or 40
years.  To date the U.S has spent far less than X (in adjusted dollars)
and, not suprisingly, Y has gotten proportionally bigger.  The fact is,
the vision that the original Fusion Scientists had has yet to be shown
wrong, and in fact we are getting closer and closer to "hot" ignition, as
well as spinning off a lot of good science with collateral effects
(including work on superconducting magnets and levitating trains, and
Nuclear Magnetic Resonance to name a few).

So feel free to be skeptical, but be sure you're giving the Fusion program
it's due when comparing it to the "cold fusion" experiments occuring
around the contry.  You're comparing a mature, well directed science to a
collection of experiments which has had less than 10 years  development
time, and has produced more than its fair share of "unreproducable"
experiments, and which have no certain theoretical basis or explanation.
Again! I don't mean to say that there's nothing there, or that in 10 more
years it is not possible that we'll be getting all our electricity from
this process, I just mean to point out the differences in the programs and
the merits of the Hot over the Cold at this time. 

To some people, the problems of ignition are "merely" engineering
problems, whereas the theory or "science" is certain (others would
disagree, but all would admit that the theory is at worst "not quite
complete"). In the cold fusion world, on the other hand, there is not yet
a well accepted theory that even explains the phenomenon that seems to be
producing energy. 

Geez I think I made my point now.  Hope all take this as intended; In my
Opinion only as an amateur connected to the Fusion Program by employment.
(I'm just an accountant!  Really!).

[end Soapbox Mode]

Pete

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 12:34:48 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: FS Statistical impressions

On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
 
> If that's the case, then how in all creation did the TL12 Sylean Federation
> get to be the centre and prime mover in the new empire? One High population
> TL14 system in the central region of the Empire(s) would put an end to
> Sylea's Imperial ambitions real quick.

Unless there was some compelling reason to join the Imperium...market
access, or perhaps they joined with the intentions of co-opting Cleon's
reign, maybe?

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 12:54:35 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: FF&S Write-up of TL-15 Xboat

On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, Franklin W. Cain wrote:

> I've been meaning to send this out.  Some time ago, I wrote an article on
> "Relic IISS Ships and the New Era/Reformation Coalition" (or some such
> title).  For that article, I made a write-up of an Xboat using _Fire,_
> _Fusion,_&_Steel_.  For whatever reason, I neglected to post that
> write-up with the article.  So, I'm posting it now.  
> 
> According to CT Supplement 7, the Xboat has a massive array of databanks.
> I read that as meaning "a *lot* of extra computers."

Snippage of breaking rules to cover X-boat systems design

> I'd appreciate your feedback.  
> 

AHA! You have run afoul of the same error people make again and again.

The Flight Computers on starships are NOT ordinary multi purpose
computers, but massively redundant highly parallel milspec combat rated
computer systems with some highly specialized computing subsystems, and
the volume and mass includes much of the networking infrastructure
required.

Xboat 'databanks' are probably just really, really big RAID systems with
big honking I/O pipelines to suck the data in and out fast, and as such
are much cheaper that flight
computers.

In fact, at BEST, using Flt computers to do this would make as much sense
as trying to set up a Cray as a workgroup file server...you could, at vast
expense and trouble, and you would end up with a finicky beast that
wouldn't be a very good file server. 

At Worst, it would be like trying to set up a file server using the
onboard computer in your GM car...hey, those are based on multipurpose
microprocessors, and probably have the raw computing horsepower yopu need
for a file server (which, truth be told, isn't really a hell of a lot,
depending on the number of users you're servicing)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 13:03:11 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: j-drives

On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, Thomas Walter Trelenberg wrote:
 
> Allow "A" ports to build brand new j-drives.  Then your "B" ports, while
> not being able to produce a drive from raw elements, has the equipment
> and capable personnel to perform high quality remanufacure of a j-drive.
> A drive thus produced would not be entirely new, but would also be a bit
> cheaper.  Use the analogy of "A" ports selling "dealer engines", "B"
> ports selling high quality "rebuilt engines"....while at a "C"
> port,...hope that BillyBob can find the parts you need in his junk "out
> back" and hope that he didn't get his A&P certification out of a cereal
> box.

Hey! good idea...and it finally makes sense of the A B C structure...A
ports are Dealer shops next to the engine plant in Detroit, B ports are
Checker and Pep Boys, and C is like that guy in Silverton Colorado who
fixed my parents '72 Travelall one horrible vacation (You lose the rear
brakes on a truck towing a loaded 17' trailer with six people in the
truck....in the Rockies!) with the rear axle of his '58 International 1 1/2
ton flatbed. (MAN did _he_ make some spectacular JOT sucesses!)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 15:29:13 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Musings on June THUDDD

[Snip June THUDD idea]

Here! Here!  Yipee! (Montel Style) Ho! HO! Ho!

I think I could get into the Descriptive THUDD idea.

Pryr

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 13:36:43 -0700
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Yanks in space!

You are right, I misquoted you.  You did not say "Sweden is civilized, 
unlike the US", rather you said "We're talking about civilized 
countries/planets, not the US." (re: "Smart Guns" 5/29/97 and/or digest 
#1378)

I don't know how I could possibly have gotten the wrong idea.

So far as any statements I made about your mind or personality, what I said 
was "...I urge you to examine it yourself, and perhaps with some research, 
re-evaluate what I believe to be a very closed-minded and inaccurate 
concept of civilization."

If that offends you, in any way, then I offer my apology, but not a 
retraction.

I will, however, restate my original belief that this conversation thread 
is not appropriate to the TML and invite you to continue this discussion, 
if you wish, via private e-mail.  I find some of your viewpoints 
interesting, and will be attempting to verify or refute some of the points 
you have made with research.

My regrets to the list for having made this a public post, but I felt a 
response was in order.

_________________________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
Http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of 
dropping a god at 500 meters
_________________________________________________________________________



- ----------
From: 	Anders Backman[SMTP:anders.backman@aniware.se]
Sent: 	Monday, June 02, 1997 1:59 AM
To: 	Douglas
Cc: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	Re: Yanks in space!

>> I'm not arguing that Traveller should be swedish, just that US culture
>> should not be taken as the normal case as it is so way off the average 
case
>> here on earth.
>>
>>
>> /Anders Backman
>> Aniware AB
>> anders.backman@aniware.se
>>
>>
>
>With all due respect, might I point out that 'normal' is something that
>you have in common with your peers, and may not reflect anything other
>than your personal lifestyle.  So while I accept that the US may not be
>'normal' to you, I will not accept your telling me that Sweden sets the
>standard to be judged by.
With "normal" I (of course) mean either average or median depending on how
the distribution looks. I'm well aware that Sweden is not normal and as you
can read from your quote of my quote that is also not what I'm saying. What
I'm saying is that as for violence/crime level/cops per inhabitant etc US
is pretty far from the average case here on earth. Average is taken by
summing a measured factor over all samples and dividing by the number of
samples.

>This is not to denigrate your country (or anyone elses for that matter),
>I am just saying that your perception is formed by your experience.  It is
>different than mine.

I'm sorry but statistical measurements has nothing to do with experience or
perception. The formulation of what is to be measured maight be but not the
answer. If I happened to be living in Burma or even i US the fact that
regarding violence(crime level/cops per inhabitants US would still be far
from normal.

>I try not to claim that the US is better, but I also do not accept others
>telling me it is worse.  So when you claim that (I'm remembering the post,
>not looking at it) 'Sweden is civilized, unlike the US' - and I admit that
>I find sentiments like that both provocative and totally inappropriate to
>a venue such as the TML - I have to believe that you have, for one reason
>or another, developed a negative attitude about the States and will not
>look past it.

Some parts of US works very well indeed and some does not. I do think that
the US is definately a country that I'd prefer living in compared from the
average case here on earth (most people live in China or India). The
problem with this 'discussion' is that I did not say 'Sweden is civilized,
unlike the US' but merely responded to somebodys notion that more laws
would lead to more brutal and violent police. Then I compared two sample
countries (US and Sweden) and noted that despite the fact that we have more
laws and regulation in Sweden (wether this was better or worse I didn't
comment) we have far less police brutality than in the US.

I do not think that the US is less civilized than the average case today on
earth. Democracy, free speech, almost no starvation  etc clearly make it
far above tha average but it is more violent and has a larger crime problem
than the average case on earth. Why that is the case is an interesting
question but pretty off topic. Sorry if I stepped on somebodys toes by
implying that there are aspects of US culture that aren't perfect (the last
paragraph would surely make the blood boil for some on the list but if art
is about evoking emotion then I'm simply exercising my artistic freedom ;))

(I snipped off your closing remarks about my mind and personality as these
were a bit off amrk for general discussion don't you think.)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 17:44:21 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: What type B starports can build!

>> I think that Type B starports can build only spacecraft (non jump).  Of
>> course they could always just leave that bit out and finish the ship
>> somewhere that can install a jump drive.

From page 133 of the T4 main book: 

"B     Good quality installation. Refined fuel available. Annual
maintenance overhaul
available. **Shipyard capable of constructing starships and non-starships
present.**"
[emphasis added] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Wasn't there a discussion some months back about whether B yards could only
construct
ships up to 5000 tons to distinguish them further from A yards? That's the
house rule I play
by anyway.

>Since that'd be in a different system, shipping the unfinished ship is
>gonna be *real* expensive unless it is small enough to fit as "normal"
>cargo. :-)

From EA, page 3:

"At least two firms have subcontracts with other worlds to provide
unfinished hulls, which are brought to Sylean space on huge dispersed frame
cargo ships, to be fitted with locally produced thruster plates, drives,
and sensors."

Of course, EA was wrong about the ROM's highest TL, unless that is now
officially going to be changed. Unless we just mark it down to 1700 years
of uncertainty and lost records and rumor about a rumored "Golden Age," the
only facts about which are probably locked away deep in the territory of an
enemy power...

**********************************************************
Paul Owensby (pauld@athens.net)                   
CEO and Chief Bottle Washer of ValuJump Lines
"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 02 Jun 97 17:45:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Subject: Re: [T97#1393] High-tech ruins

SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> writes...

T::>jeff.zeitlin wrote:

T::>>Someone else on the list suggested an indication such as
 ::>>  parenthesizing the TL.  Better, as there's now a visual
 ::>>  distinction.  But I think I have an even better idea:

 [Bandwidthectomy]

T::>Yes. Much better than the parenthesizing. However, remember this will add a
 ::>lot of work to those people working on the FS data. And you could get some
 ::>interesting clashes between ZSn and RMn codes :-)

 Not necessarily - if there are distinctly both ZS and RM ruins
 on the same planet, include both codes - and similarly for
 either or both, plus Ancients.  Remember, this is in the
 Remarks column, which is less structurally restricted than any
 other part of the UWP where this kind of info might be found.

 For example, a world with (undiscovered by ZS or RoM) Ancient
 ruins at TL18, Ziru Sirka ruins (abandoned or ruined by the
 Rule of Man) at TL 11, and Rule of Man ruins at TL12 would
 simply have three codes in the Remarks area: AnI ZSB RMC.  Yes,
 it will mean some more work for the people doing the FS/M0
 rework - but it's work that really shouldn't have been
 necessary; it's fairly clear that the revised data wasn't
 generated using the standard rules, from any incarnation of
 Traveller.  I'd have no problem (and could trivially write a
 computer program to do the basic drudge work) with discarding
 the non-civilization-related data from the UWPs and just
 re-generating them from the physical data (sector, location,
 size, atmo, hydro). Then, all that would have to be done would
 be manually adjusting the significant planets as needed (such
 as Vland, Sylea, and so on).  It might even be possible (though
 programmatically a little more difficult) to set it up so that
 "key" planets like the above will have an influence on the
 nearby worlds - assuming that someone can formulate rules to
 describe that influence.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
  OLXWin 1.00b  I'm too simple to have a complex ... So I have a simplex.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 14:59:57 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Hi Pop Worlds

Carlos mentioned deleting the really high population worlds from my
analysis. Here they are, all seven of them.

sector	hex	name		uwp		population(%'age)
cdr	3225	Shaniin 	C226BEE-9	8E+11	72%
dag	2512	Irash.		B220BAD-C	5E+11	35%
del	0512	Khakakir.	A000BDD-9	5E+11	25%
del	1213	Sabaagiirar.	B767BAC-A	8E+11	39%
lis	0626	Gishgi.		A300BBB-B	1E+11	7%
lis	2333	Leim Ku .	B360BC9-B	4E+11	28%
mas	0510	Shig .		B362BAB-8	4E+11	25%
					Total	3.5E+12	26%

These really high pop worlds are all LESS than the TL of the Imperium,
much less in some cases. They also acocutn for only aquarter of the
population of the Imperium.

If you then look at the overall Tech level vs Population, which I've sort
of picked as an overall level of competitiveness, the rest of the sectoros
get a lot closer to Core. Lishun has a population close to that of Core at
TL C, as does Dagudashaag, and fairly significant populations exist at TL
D in 4 sectors: Dagudashaag, Gushemege, Illeiesh, and Masillia,
significant here being in excess of half of Core's population at TL C.

The problem arises, of course, of explaining why the Imperium arose in
Core, with this distribution of technology, and why do we persist in
calling it the 'Long Night' when at this point, there is 74% of the
population in the galaxy living at Early Stellar or above tech levels.

Here are the sector by sector breakdowns:

sector	Pop at TL 9+	% of total sector pop
ant	5.74E+11	61%
cdr	1.10E+12	99%
cor	8.40E+11	77%
dag	1.15E+12	80%
del	1.87E+12	92%
for	4.74E+11	66%
gus	4.54E+11	50%
ile	7.18E+11	59%
lis	1.02E+12	71%
mas	9.89E+11	62%
zar	5.16E+11	90%
		
Total	9.70E+12	74%

What this data really looks like is ca 1000-1100 data... perhaps a bit low
in high tech, but it appears whatever algorithm was used to generate the
TL merely capped to TL to some extent, and didn't have a depressing effect
throughout the calculations.

Unless some reasonable explanation can be worked out as to WHY the
Imperium, over all the others was able to take over these well matched
foes (speaking on a sector-wide level, of course) when they actually
enjoyed a superiority of tech/population, I think the FS tech level data
needs to be brought down a couple of notches overall.

Notice, the only sector which DID give the Imperium a run for it's money,
Antares has a lower Population/tech.

All of this is, however, utterly worthless speculation because thereis a
very large wildcard in all of this mixture, which is the true TL and
population of the Vland sector...As the annexation of Vland into the 3I is
the first 'megamerger' of the 3I, this could well have a domino effect on
all the formerly equivalent 'Pocket Empires' out there.

I haven't got my books here, so I'm not sure how that went...were there
hostilities between Vland and the 3I or was it a peaceful merger?

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 14:33:58 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Rings w/o moons

At 09:43 AM 6/2/97 -0700, Scott wrote:

>It was pointed out to me by an astronomer type that ring systems are
>usually herded by at least one or two shepherd moons.  The Traveller
>scout-type data systems seem to make rings the smallest body size, instead
>of "space junk worldlets."
>
>Is it indeed the case that I should expunge ring systems w/o little moons,
>or should I just assume that either the moons are irrelevantly small, or
>the ring sized crud is not in a ring if a moon is not present?

Since the shepard moons tend to be tiny, you can do anyone of four things:

1> Assume the presence of the necessary sheppard moons.

2> Add a size "S" moon in the next diameter orbit, or make note of it's
presence in the same orbit as the ring.

3> Consider the ring a recent phenonenon, which will disperse sometime in
the next million years or so.

4> Remove the ring.

I'd lean towards 1, with 3 being fairly rare.
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
|  Creative Planetologist, THUDDer, 20 year vet  |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
|  "One who, on being told that this is a game   | 
|  about politics and intrigue in 17th century   |
|  Italy, asks to play a ninja."                 |
|   -Andrew Rilstone's definition of "munchkin"  |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 19:13:49 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: Re: FFS Gauss Weapon Design Question

- ----------
> From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM; gdw-beta@qrc.com
> Subject: Re: FFS Gauss Weapon Design Question
> Date: Monday, June 02, 1997 1:50 PM

> The grouping should be V/(100*TL), so the denominator gets larger as
> tech levels go up.

Thing is that you aren't multiplying 100 by the tech level, but by a 
tech level modifier.  The tech level modifier (TLm) goes down as the
tech level increases.  L = V/(100*TLmod) is the right order of ops though.

> 
> Take this example: 
> 
> Velocity = 4000m/s
> 
> TL      V/(100*TL)
> ====================== 
> 10         4.00
> 11         3.64
> 12         3.33
> 13         3.08
> 

The table actually reads:

      TL	TLm
	10	1.6	
	11	1.3
	12	1.0
	13	0.8
	14	0.6
	16	0.4

So for Velocity = 4000m/s you get:

      TL |   V    / ( 100 * TLm )  =  Length
      ----------------------------------------------
	10 |  4000  / ( 100 * 1.6 )  =   25 cm     
      11 |  4000  / ( 100 * 1.3 )  =   30.77 cm
      12 |  4000  / ( 100 * 1.0 )  =   40 cm
      13 |  4000  / ( 100 * 0.8 )  =   50 cm
      14 |  4000  / ( 100 * 0.6 )  =   66.67 cm
      16 |  4000  / ( 100 * 0.4 )  =  100 cm

As you can see, with the table and the equation given 
the design of barrel length is broken.

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 19:27:33 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Chatting With Melody

Well, I got the call from Melody at Imperium Games today.  I suspect that,
far from calling folks at random, they're working their way down a list
of purchasers -- I was somewhat late in my original hardback/signed rules
purchase, bought a T-shirt (yeah I felt really fan-boyish) and a JTAS
subscription a long while after that, and currently have an order in for
the revised rules set.  Thus, I seem to have been called later than many,
though not at the tail end of the sequence.

Melody seems well practiced in the hard sell!  I begged off ordering
Pocket Empires from IG, pointing out that my local retailer is holding a
copy for me and that it doesn't do them any good to antagonize their main
but uncompensated sales force.  She agreed, but possibly only because she
was being so pleasant.  :-)

How have other folks been handling the issue of not buying IG products
sight unseen until they "prove" themselves with more in the style of EA
and PE?  I think I managed it put it fairly diplomatically (wishing the
best for IG, enjoying the latest products and apparent turnaround in
company policies and management, but still doing the "wait and see"), and
she seemed somewhat familiar with the refrain.  And still pleasant as all
get-out.

Have the dutiful but too-oft-burnt TML partisans been making a good,
productive impression on IG's marketing apparatus? 

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 20:27:17 -0500
From: The Stump Family <stumps@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re:FFS Gauss weapons

I thought the formula was BL= (V/100)*TLm ?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 22:26:42 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Nuclear Warheads for T4

I have generated some values for nuclear warheads for the use in T4, My
values will differ from the ones in EA because Greg did not use the value
for TNT, I used the same procedure that he used just I used the value for TNT.

All of the nukes below are TL-15 warheads, if you want TL-12 warheads just
read down the CM column 2 rows, Example
a TL-12 1 kton warhead would be the mass and volume of a 12 cm warhead
rather than a 10 cm warhead.

TL 13-14 add one cm
TL 11-12 add two cm
TL 9-10  add three cm
TL 8     add five cm
TL 7     add seven cm
TL 6     add nine cm

Ktons   Cm   Volume m3   Mass Tons   Cost MCr
0.001   1    0.0000025   0.000028    0.00001
0.002   2    0.00002     0.00022     0.00002
0.005   3    0.00007     0.00074     0.00005
0.01    4    0.00016     0.0018      0.0001
0.02    5    0.00031     0.0034      0.0002
0.05    6    0.00054     0.0059      0.0005
0.1     7    0.00085     0.0094      0.001
0.2     8    0.0013      0.014       0.002
0.5     9    0.0018      0.0199      0.005
1      10    0.0025      0.027       0.01
2      11    0.0033      0.036       0.02
5      12    0.0043      0.047       0.05
10     13    0.0055      0.06        0.10
20     14    0.0068      0.075       0.20
50     15    0.0084      0.092       0.50
100    16    0.010       0.112       1
200    17    0.012       0.134       2
500    18    0.015       0.16        5

Mtons  Cm    Volume m3   Mass Tons   Cost MCr
1      19    0.017       0.188       10
2      20    0.020       0.219       20
5      21    0.023       0.253       50
10     22    0.026       0.291       100
20     23    0.030       0.333       200
50     24    0.034       0.378       500
100    25    0.039       0.427       1,000
200    26    0.044       0.481       2,000
500    27    0.049       0.538       5,000

Gtons  Cm    Volume m3   Mass Tons   Cost MCr
1      28    0.055       0.601       10,000
2      29    0.061       0.667       20,000
5      30    0.067       0.739       50,000
10     31    0.074       0.815       100,000
20     32    0.081       0.896       200,000
50     33    0.089       0.983       500,000
100    34    0.098       1.075       1,000,000
200    35    0.107       1.173       2,000,000
500    36    0.116       1.276       5,000,000

Ttons  Cm    Volume m3   Mass Tons   Cost MCr
1      37    0.126       1.386       10,000,000
2      38    0.136       1.501       20,000,000
5      39    0.148       1.623       50,000,000
10     40    0.159       1.751       100,000,000

Pen/Damage Values are in T4 values

                 |-----Meters-----|------------Kilometers-----------|     
Ktons   Contact   100   200   500   1    2    5    10   20   50   100
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
0.001   103       17    12    7     5    3    1    1    0    0    0
0.002   120       20    14    9     6    4    2    1    0    0    0
0.005   146       24    17    11    8    5    3    2    1    0    0
0.01    170       28    21    13    9    6    4    2    1    0    0
0.02    198       33    24    16    11   8    5    3    2    0    0
0.05    241       41    30    20    14   10   6    4    2    1    0
0.1     281       48    35    23    17   12   7    5    3    1    1
0.2     326       56    41    27    20   14   9    6    4    2    1
0.5     397       69    50    33    24   17   11   8    5    3    2
1       461       80    59    39    28   21   13   9    6    4    2
2       536       93    69    46    33   24   16   11   8    5    3
5       653       114   84    56    41   30   20   14   10   6    4
10      758       133   98    65    48   35   23   17   12   7    5
20      881       154   114   76    56   41   27   20   14   9    6
50      1073      188   139   93    69   50   33   24   17   11   8
100     1245      219   162   109   80   59   39   28   21   13   9
200     1446      254   188   126   93   69   46   33   24   16   11
500     1761      310   230   154   114  84   56   41   30   20   14

                 |-----Meters-----|------------Kilometers-----------|     
Mtons   Contact   100   200   500   1    2    5    10   20   50   100
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
1       2045      360   267   179   133  98   65   48   35   23   17
2       2373      419   310   209   154  114  76   56   41   27   20
5       2891      510   378   254   188  139  93   69   50   33   24
10      3356      592   439   296   219  162  109  80   59   39   28
20      3895      688   510   343   254  188  126  93   69   46   33
50      4744      838   622   419   310  230  154  114  84   56   41
100     5506      973   722   486   360  267  179  133  98   65   48
200     6392      1130  838   565   419  310  209  154  114  76   56
500     7784      1377  1021  688   510  378  254  188  139  93   69

                 |-----Meters-----|------------Kilometers--------------|     
Gtons   Contact   100   200   500   1     2     5     10   20   50   100
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
1       9035      1598  1186  799   592   439   296   219  162  109  80
2       10487     1855  1377  928   688   510   343   254  188  126  93
5       12771     2260  1677  1130  838   622   419   310  230  154  114
10      14824     2623  1946  1312  973   722   486   360  267  179  133
20      17207     3045  2260  1523  1130  838   565   419  310  209  154
50      20954     3708  2752  1855  1377  1021  688   510  378  254  188
100     24322     4305  3195  2154  1598  1186  799   592  439  296  219
200     28231     4997  3708  2500  1855  1377  928   688  510  343  254
500     34378     6085  4516  3045  2260  1677  1130  838  622  419  310

                 |-----Meters-----|------------Kilometers--------------|     
Ttons   Contact   100   200   500   1     2     5     10    20    50   100
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
1       39903     7063  5242  3535  2623  1946  1312  973   722   486  360
2       46316     8199  6085  4103  3045  2260  1523  1130  838   565  419
5       56402     9985  7411  4997  3708  2752  1855  1377  1021  688  510
10      65466    11590  8602  5800  4305  3195  2154  1598  1186  799  592

Mext the Updated RAAMpage warhead packages.




- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1398
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 3 1997       Volume 1997 : Number 1399



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Starship Record Keeping
Re: SSDS & QSDS?
Re: [TML] combat question
RE: What type B starports can build!
Re: [TML] combat question
Re: FFS Gauss Weapon Design Question
TL 11 Automed
Hello from a newcomer
Re: Hmmmm...Is the truth stranger..
RPSCS
Progress (was Re: FS Statistical impressions)
Re: j-drives [but getting off topic]
RE: Yanks in space!
Trading Systems

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 22:32:59 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: Starship Record Keeping

I've created some more forms for those of you who get into the 
details of running a starship like I do.

Traditionally, these forms will be maintained by the player who is 
running the steward aboard the ship, but another character can be 
selected as the ship's administrative officer.  Sometimes the Captain 
will handle the administrative affairs of the ship; sometimes it 
will be the ship's broker/trader; and sometimes it will be another 
character with high admin skill.  Whatever the case, this character 
should have skills such as streetwise, carsousing, 
liason, bribery, trader, broker, fast talk, jack of all trades, law, 
leadership, perception, and psychology to rely upon besides 
administration.

The ship's administrative officer takes care of payroll, inventories 
cargo, manages the ship's financial matters, deals with starport 
authorities, purchases supplies, finds work for the ship, etc.  This 
is an important function aboard ship, especially for a merchant 
vessel, and can lead to several interesting types of role playing 
encounters.

Besides the standard GDW cargo form (TAS form 14, Cargo Manifest), I 
have created additional forms for the ship's administrative officer.

They are--

1)  Ship's Operating Fund

This simple form is used to keep track of the ship's financial 
account which is used to buy things like fuel and life support and 
pay for things like crew salaries and bething costs.



2)  Shadow Fund

This simple form is like the Ship's Operating Fund, except it is used 
as a separate account for subsidized merchant vessels.  Subsidized 
merchants, as per the usual subsidy agreement, must pay 50% of the 
ship's revenues to the subsidy holder.  This includes revenue 
from standard ship operations like speculative trade, freight runs, 
passengers, charters, etc.  

There are some things, though, that will make money for the crew 
members without being a standard ship function.  Say the characters 
are hired to perform as body guards for a noble.  This revenue has 
nothing to do with the ship's normal functions, and the subsidy 
holder has no claim to 50% of it.  Monies like this will be put into 
the Shadow Fund and managed like the regular Operating Fund account, 
except it will not be considered when subsidy payments are made.



3)  Ship's Maintenance Fund

The yearly overhaul for ship can be a big hit to the ship's operating 
fund.  To prepare for this, an account can be set up where equal 
weekly payments (from the Operating Fund) are made to the maintenance 
fund.  When the annual overhaul arrives, the money from this account 
is used to pay for it.

This account can also be used as a savings account of last resort if 
the characters get desperate for money.  Characters can dip into this 
account if they need to and try to repay the money taken at a later 
date.



4)  Ship's Fuel Tankage

This form is used to keep track of how much fuel the ship has.  
There's blanks for total fuel tankage and additional fuel from items 
like demountable fuel tanks.  There's also a blank for purification 
plant fuel purfication rate per hour, fuel scoops intake per hour, 
and power plant fuel usage per year.

Additionally, there is a space to record fuel use based on the jump 
number number of the jump completed.  A steward or admin officer can 
take a quick look at this and know how much fuel is used in a jump 
without having to recalculate each time.



5)  Life Support

Life support costs Cr1000 per person per week.  This form helps keep 
track of how many days of life support the ship has.  Simply multiply 
how many people are aboard the ship by the number of days in space 
and subtract this amount from the available life support days on the 
form.

This can lead to some interesting role playing scenarios when the 
players realize that they have been in space longer than they have 
anticipated and are running out of life support.  Things get pretty 
hairy on a ship when air and food start running out.



6)  Life Support for Low Berths

The low berth life support form is based on low berth usages rather 
than days.  The steward or administrative officer can keep track of 
low berth supplies using this form.



If you would like any of these forms to use in your campaign, then 
send me a personal e-mail.  I'll send the requested ones to you in a 
Word v2.0 file (which is importable to Word v6.0 and '97 versions).

Kenneth.



PS  other sheets I have available are--

Vechicle Card (designed by Marc Miller)

T4 Character Sheet (designed for KBv2.0 but easily converted to the
official system)

T4 Slug Ammo Sheet (originally designed for TNE information, but can
be used for any edition of Traveller

T4 Money Sheet (to keep track of a character's funds)

T4 Character Damage Record (to keep track of a character's hit 
points)

TL 3 Pysadian Filter Mask

Miscellaneous Equipment Sheet (with rules for use)

TL 1 Pysadian Cold Weather Clothing

TL 4 Work Boot   

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 20:46:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: SSDS & QSDS?

> Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 15:36:47 +0300 (EET DST)
> From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
> 
> Pardon me, this is a stupid question but :
> What are SSDS and QSDS? I think they are some ship-building formulas and
> that they are derived from the FF&S.

Simple Ship Design System and Quick Ship Design System.  Both are derived
(with modifications) from FF&S; QSDS is a simplified component-based
subset of SSDS.

> Are they printed in some book (alas,
> I have no material from T4)

QSDS is in the T4 main rules book (with critical tables missing); SSDS is
in the _Starships_ supplement.

> or are they somewhere in the Net? 

Both are also available (with errata fixed) on the net.  My own THUDDD
main page at http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/thuddd.html contains
links to both systems' support pages.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 00:37:21 -0400
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] combat question

At 02:39 AM 6/2/97 EST, Richard wrote:

<Snip...>
>... My second suggestion is that your characters were using the wrong
weapon; in
>any close-range combat they should be using waterknives (EA, page 68). I
>had a squad of Imperial Marines attack a pirate crew with them and WHOA
>BOY! There were enough body parts flying around to stock a Monty Python
>sketch!
>

Actually, at this stage of my (in)experience, I'm just as happy that the
PCs DIDN'T have 'em!




- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 17:00:09 +1200
From: Brody  Dunn <brody@intersol.co.nz>
Subject: RE: What type B starports can build!

On Tuesday, June 03, 1997 12:45 PM, Leonard Erickson
[SMTP:shadow@krypton.rain.com] wrote:
> In mail you write:
> 
> > I think that Type B starports can build only spacecraft (non jump).
Of
> > course they could always just leave that bit out and finish the ship
> > somewhere that can install a jump drive.
> 
> Since that'd be in a different system, shipping the unfinished ship is
> gonna be *real* expensive unless it is small enough to fit as "normal"
> cargo. :-)

Yeap!

Unless you contract DuFord Industrial, with its amazing (and fully
equipped) portable shipyard to pop in a install one of their custom
JumpTech 500 Jump Drives.

Would that be possible - if you have the tools, the parts and the
trained personnel then you should be able to install or fix anything
anywhere that has the space and access.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 00:34:31 -0400
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] combat question

At 03:17 PM 6/1/97 EST, Doug and Ken wrote:

><Doug: >
<Snip>...
>A couple of questions:
>
>Did anybody try for extra damage hits?...

No - The PCs got a bit caught up in things and didn't think of it- and
neither did I!  
 
>
>...How did you handle autofire from the SMG?
>

Incorrectly...  Autofire inflicts multiple hits - that will blanket the
three characteristics - With the two autofire shots taken, we applied all
hits against a single characteristic - wrong!

>...How much time passed between a character being wounded and his being given
>first aid?...
>

Generally within a few minutes of suffering the wounds (One ran a bit
longer...)

<Ken: >
>
>...What kind of armor did the PC's have?  
>

None.

>...If none, it seems that the T4 rules should be bloody enough.  A SMG 
>does 2 D damage.  If you have an average character (stats 7-7-7), you 
>can take him out real quick with autofire...

Right. 

>...The second random damage roll is crucial.  If you roll 
>Str again, the character is unconscious and one of his other two 
>stats is seriously reduced...

Did I misunderstand/misread something?  Does this mean that if you inflict
damage that drives a characteristic to zero, the excess damage points are
applied against another characteristic?  If that's the case, I withdraw any
comments about bloodiness!  An extra damage hit could easily kill a
character in that case...


Thanks to both of you for yr comments (I've one PC who has medical-1 and
is, figuratively, dying to expand its use - I'm passing Ken's recovery
rules to him to peruse..) I must plead T4 combat inexperience!  We run a
generally unviolent campaign - the player reaction when guns are pulled is
along the lines of "Oh! Somebody's gonna get hurt!"  Due to a collective
brain-fart, we simply misused the two SMGs involved in the fight.


PS - The KBv2.0 task system keeps on tickin'!

- ---------------
Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 02 Jun 97 23:26:36 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: FFS Gauss Weapon Design Question

On 06/01/97 at 07:13 PM,  "Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net> said:

> Thing is that you aren't multiplying 100 by the tech level, but by a 
> tech level modifier.  The tech level modifier (TLm) goes down as the
> tech level increases.  L = V/(100*TLmod) is the right order of ops
> though.

Well now that *does* look wrong!  The TLmod number should NOT go down as
tech level increases, if that formula is going to be used..I don't
think.

I'd say you are right, and either the formula or the TLmod table is
wrong.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 01:06:31 +0000
From: "Kenneth Bearden" <dreamer@weck.brokersys.com>
Subject: TL 11 Automed

The idea was taken from the TNE automed in the main book.  This one 
has been updated for T4, and I have expanded the rules for use of 
automeds in a Traveller game.

This is another of my equipment sheets.  If you want it, e-mail me in 
private, and I'll send you one.  No starship should be without.

Like always, the automed sheet is in Word v2.0, but you can still 
read it in later versions of Word.

Kenneth.

PS  all the sheets that I have created so far are--

Vechicle Card (designed by Marc Miller)

T4 Character Sheet (designed for KBv2.0 but easily converted to the
official system)

T4 Slug Ammo Sheet (originally designed for TNE information, but can
be used for any edition of Traveller

T4 Money Sheet (to keep track of a character's funds)

T4 Character Damage Record (to keep track of a character's hit 
points)

TL 3 Pysadian Filter Mask

Miscellaneous Equipment Sheet (with rules for use)

TL 1 Pysadian Cold Weather Clothing

TL 4 Work Boot

TL 11 Automed

Ship's Operating Fund (keep track of ship's finances)

Shadow Fund (for subsidized merchants)

Ship's Maintenance Fund (so that you don't get hit with a huge bill 
at the end of the year)

Ship's Fuel Tankage (how much fuel do we have?  how much fuel does 
the purification plant purfiy?)

Life Support (to keep track of how many days of life support the ship 
has left)

Low Berth Life Support (to keep track of how many more people you can 
put into low berth)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:23:07 +0100
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Hello from a newcomer

Hello folks,

I've just joined the list, so I thought I'd introduce myself.  I'm a 32-
year-old software engineer and former computer game author with too
little time on my hands.  My hobbies are basically all game-related
(except for hill-walking) - board games, card games, RPGS, Interactive
Fiction.  The RPGs that take up most of my money and attention are GURPS
(for its in-game rules and character generation) and Traveller (for its
setting(s) and universe generation rules).

I first encountered Traveller back in 1980 or 81, before I'd even
started roleplaying.  I bought High Guard, and then Scouts, long before
I got the main rules.

I'm very much a solo traveller.  When tired, instead of sitting in front
of the TV I'll sometimes roll up a world or several - which is usually
enough to wake me up sufficiently to think about what the results
mean.  I've also used this technique for "Just In Time" world
development in a solo exploratory merchant game (which met an untimely
end when I lost my notes moving house 8-().

I am not a military buff, and have very little interest in vehicle
design (so no THUDDD entries from me ;-), but I enjoyed the Starship
Operator's Manual because it had a lot on shipboard character roles.

I *am* interested in world design (my favourite books from the first
three incarnations being Scouts, WBH and WTH), politics and economics.

But enough of me.  You all just carry on - I'll sit back and watch for a
bit.

TTFN,
- -- 
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Jun 97 00:34:18 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Hmmmm...Is the truth stranger..

On 06/02/97 at 02:16 PM,  "Peter  H. Brenton"
<pete@cummings.uchicago.edu> said:

> > > > No offense, Peter, but my skepticism of "hot" fusion will end when
> > > > *anybody* builds a 300MW power plant using *any* hot fusion technology. 
> > > > ;->
> > 
> > > Go outside around noon on a clear day, look up. :)
> > 
> > Ok, anybody but God! ;->
> > 

> (After some recent examples of offense taking gone wrong, it would
> take a lot more than a little skepticism over fusion energy to get my
> goat Eris, but thanks for inserting that anyway)

Da Nada! 

> Craig has a good point, we have a good example of fusion occurring in
> the sky over our heads.  

Yeah, that's what I'd fund first too! I'm an SPS man from way back. ;->

> We have no such example of this "new" process that might be what the "cold >fusion" people have found.

I'm not defending the "cold fusion" crowd. If they have something they
don't need it and if they don't they don't deserve it. ;-> I haven't
seen any conclusive proof, but there's quite a bit of smoke out there. 
We'll have to wait and see.

> And, as implied originally and above, I don't mean to say that they
> haven't found anything at all.  I just wanted to insert a bit of
> skepticism over the original post's absolute truthfulness.  There has
> been too much controversy around the whole subject of "cold fusion" at
> this point to take any news on the subject at face value until it has
> been rigorously evaluated.

When it comes to RW you shouldn't accept much of *anything* "until it
has been rigourously evaluated"..yes? ;->  I'm afraid I'm still
skeptical of the "hot" boys claims too.  It seems we never see them
without their hands in Uncle's pocket, and a claim that just "a few
billion more dollars and a few more years." 

Now, keep in mind that if *I* held the purse-strings I'd probably give
it to them, but I'd fund the super-collider, NASP, and enough space
related projects to employ the world's supply of engineers, too.  Heck,
we're already running a 100 billion a year deficit..what's another 10-15
billion! ;-> 

I'd still be skeptical about any of it working, though. It'd be
wildcatting money, maybe it's a dry hole, maybe it's a gusher. One
gusher will pay off a *lot* of dry holes.


Eris,
    I'm already a heretic..now I'm a skeptic too! ;-D

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:54:45 -0800
From: rdhough@orca.bc.ca (Richard Hough)
Subject: RPSCS

Well last weekend we played the first significant space combat using the
Role-Playing Space Combat System v0.9, kindly designed by a bunch of
familiar names. Overall the system held up very well. Rather than bore you
all with a narration, I will summarize a few of the remarks and rulings I
made for the combat, both good and bad. I welcome any feedback on these
comments or rulings; hopefully the problems we ran into can be considered
for the RPSCS v1.0.

The best feature of the RPSCS is mentioned in the name; its focus on
role-playing. Instead of waiting it out while ship stats decide their fate,
characters' skill and actions determine the outcome. This is what I play
Traveller for.

Another good feature is the sensor rules. Sensors in the RPSCS are well
defined, useful, even fun. The separate Detection and Weapon Lock steps
mean sensor operators are vital at all stages of battle, and the differing
properties of active, passive, and jamming use of sensors means simply
turning on every sensor on the ship won't be effective; you actually have
to use strategy. Gamers often talk about a "balance of playability versus
realism"; I think this idea is nonsense, here is an example of a rule that
is both playable, realistic, and fun.

Unfortunately, the sensor rules give no indication of how many sensor rolls
are allowed. One per ship? One per sensor? One per sensor technician? The
sensor packages offered only provide enough power for one active sensor so
this may be moot for the current rules, but what about custom ships or
special rulings? Since the RPSCS actually makes sensors useful in combat it
would be advantageous to install redundant sensors and there should be
rules to handle them. There should also be guidelines for initial detection
ranges for various situations. I would also like to see rules for Neutrino
and Densitometer sensors.

One ruling I follow which heightens drama considerability is hiding enemy
ship characteristics. In combat I only describe features of the enemy ships
that sensors will reveal, like position, energy output, and weapon
signatures. This ruling makes players more cautious; they don't just fire
every missile on board as soon as they get a sensor lock.

The ship damage rules are also very well done, especially the hit
description and crew effects. However, what should I do if a nonexistent or
destroyed component gets hit? I have been rolling again for nonexistent
components and ignoring hits on destroyed components; the theory being that
if there is nothing there to get hit the damage hits another component, but
an inoperative component can still get hit again. One thing I dislike is
the rule that crew in a hit section take a generic 3 dice damage; it means
crew in typical body armor are immune to hits in their section. I feel it
unlikely that a weapon which can burn through centimeters of crystaliron is
going to be stopped by a flak jacket. There should also be guidelines on
what will depressurize the ship, and the effects on characters.

Rules for using computers are extremely vague. I know that computers are
just part of the 'background' in Traveller, but I feel adding special
computer rules adds a lot of potential for player interaction and another
level of tactical possibilities.

I don't understand how many attacks each weapon gets. Is the "Rate of Fire"
the number of attacks per turn or just some abstract number? If a ROF 100
laser really gets 100 attacks each turn, every ship in the fleet is going
to be destroyed before the first turn is up! The SSDS says ROF "can be
increased up to 100 by increasing the power...", but then shows weapons
with a ROF of 800! The autofire rules don't make any sense applied to
starship weaponry. To add to the confusion detonation-laser missiles, which
also make multiple attacks, roll 1 die for how many hits they get and have
no autofire DM. While I'm griping about this, the autofire rules in
Emperor's Arsenal are different from that in the main book. WOULD SOMEBODY
PLEASE TELL ME HOW TO HANDLE RATE OF FIRE IN TRAVELLER!? So far I have been
ignoring ROF entirely.

In my opinion the movement rules are unnecessarily complicated.
Velocity-dependent variable movement points which can be borrowed from
future turns? I understand the goal is to integrate facing and vector
movement, but all this effort still results in movement which resembles
ocean-going surface ships more than space vessels. I think I have said
before that any space combat system that uses a 2-D map for position is
totally abstract and not at all realistic. And of course Traveller already
had perfectly simple and realistic vector movement in Mayday. If the combat
system is going to be abstract anyway why not base it on range bands and
get rid of the useless 2-D map? If it is supposed to be representational,
why not be the first SF RPG (that I know of) to use 3-D movement rules? I
recall one TML poster suggesting Mayday movement rules with an auxiliary
Y-Z grid map. I will try running a combat using that idea one of these days
and post any impressions.

Lest I give too negative an impression, the RPSCS is the best space combat
game I have ever played, beating even Mayday. The sensor rules are great.
It can be integrated into a regular campaign or played as a separate game.
It is vastly superior, even in its 'prerelease' form, to the Basic Ship
Combat System in the T4 rulebook. IG should seriously consider using if for
T4 Deluxe.

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 23:38:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Progress (was Re: FS Statistical impressions)

Brett Fishburne <bfish@atlantech.net> wrote:

>A general comment.  There was virtually no progress during the dark ages,
>which lasted several hundred years.  The dark ages broke down (and
>repression with it) and the advances started again.  I think there should be
>a lot more repressive regimes than the survey indicates...Of course, I have
>only sampled the data by hand as of yet...

If you are referring to Europe's "Dark Ages" you are entirely incorrect.
Crop rotation, improved horse collars, windmills (borrowed from Central
Asia) Stirrups (borrowed from Asia), Gunpowder (borrowed from Asia),
mechanical clocks (the basic for modern gear technology) all were invented
or brought into Europe from 500 AD-1300 AD.  In many ways, this era had a
faster rate of technological progress than the Roman Empire. [1]

The inventions I listed as borrowed from Asia (generally from China) were
imported by Westerner travelers, the rest were invented by Europeans, all
during the "Dark Ages".  The only time the technological progress of a
large society ceases is when it is actively falling apart.  The rate of
progress may be slow (and often is) or it may be rapid, but it happens. 

The concept of the "Dark Ages" is a myth made up by scholars in the
Renaissance to make themselves feel good, and promulgated by narrow-minded
Victorians, it is not accepted as valid by any modern scholars of the
history of science and technology. 

Many worlds would have died or sunk to barbarism during the Long Night,
but some would rise from it again, and I'd imagine of the easily habitable
(say Atm 7, Hydro 4-9) worlds would have continued to progress (albeit
slowly in most cases).  Humans don't sit around and stagnate for 1700
years, ever. 

[1]  See _Medieval Technology and Social Change_ by Lynn White,
or many other fine books on the history of science & technology. 
(more references available if desired)

Comments?

- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 09:03:26 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Re: j-drives [but getting off topic]

Bruce Johnson wrote:

>Hey! good idea...and it finally makes sense of the A B C structure...A
>ports are Dealer shops next to the engine plant in Detroit, B ports are
>Checker and Pep Boys, and C is like that guy in Silverton Colorado who
>fixed my parents '72 Travelall one horrible vacation (You lose the rear
>brakes on a truck towing a loaded 17' trailer with six people in the
>truck....in the Rockies!) with the rear axle of his '58 International 1
1/2
>ton flatbed. (MAN did _he_ make some spectacular JOT sucesses!)
Thank you!  (For the best post of the month and it's only the third).


Reminds me of breaking down in the middle of the Australian outback the day
after an intensive training course had given us all a set of 3 x 5 cards
referred to as a 'toolkit'.

Miles from anywhere on the way to a sheep station, a gasket blew in our car
and we suddenly weren't going anywhere.  An industrious Indonesion managed
to fix it temporarily by punching a hole in one of the cards of just the
right shape and size to get us there and back.

The 'toolkit' designer was not impressed with what we'd done to his
precious cards when we told him later.

See, those Traveller characters aren't so unusual after all....



tc
timothy.collinson@solent.ac.uk

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 10:39:04 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: RE: Yanks in space!

You're absolutely right and I apologize for being rude and also for not
rereading my own posts. Wether US is or is not a civilized country is
totally inappropriate for the list and yes, by rereading my post I agree to
having been "closed minded" etc.
Sorry about that.

>>You are right, I misquoted you.  You did not say "Sweden is civilized,
>>unlike the US", rather you said "We're talking about civilized
>>countries/planets, not the US." (re: "Smart Guns" 5/29/97 and/or digest
>>#1378)

>So far as any statements I made about your mind or personality, what I said
>was "...I urge you to examine it yourself, and perhaps with some research,
>re-evaluate what I believe to be a very closed-minded and inaccurate
>concept of civilization."
>
>If that offends you, in any way, then I offer my apology, but not a
>retraction.



/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Jun 97 05:09:53 -0400
From: FKiesche@concentric.net
Subject: Trading Systems

Greetings All:

O.K., so we had the favorite space combat system discussion, here's a new 
one...

What system do you use for trading activities? Off of the top of my head 
I can think of:

Classic Traveller system
Book Eight: Merchant Prince system
MegaTraveller System
Traveller: TNE rules
Rob Prior's home grown system on his web pages
..any others?

All thoughts welcome!



Frederick Paul Kiesche III
(FKiesche@concentric.net)
(Traveller since 1977!)

"For two weeks,then, preparations can be made...The characters should be 
heavily involved in such planning...after all, their safety will depend 
on the precision and coordination of the attacks they launch."

- --The Traveller Adventure, GDW, 1983

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1399
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